I was reading curious article posted by one noise artist:
https://www.wired.com/story/epic-games-sale-bandcamp-music-platform-limbo/
Lots of polemic has been with discogs changes and updates, but I would change such a sudden new owner for bandcamp, who bought the system, not the employees, might hint that there are some changes coming.
In article is mentioned how current fees are so small, it probably means new ower sees opportunity for vastly bigger cut? Perhaps monthly fees for artists like there is for labels (I think labels do pay monthly fee right?).
It would be curious to see what it would do for a lot of utmost marginal music, if indeed it would not be place where you can just dump whatever for free, but monthly fees might make you think if hosting stuff there worth it?
Of course these are just speculations, but it would be unlikely company is sold so it would keep operating "as is". Probably bought for potential, that would mean how much more you can milk artists before they walk away?
Thinking how just about everybody had myspace for a while, and then... absolutely nobody?
Personally, no problem, but it seems obvious that a lot of noise has been basically build almost solely around this one website, so sudden change of mentality may have some impact?
I have Bandcamp, but honestly don't like it very much and have been considering getting rid of it altogether. I've already taken down a lot of material from there. If it were to become insignificant or vanish altogether it wouldn't matter to me at all, personally.
I can imagine that it is much more important for small labels than individual artists. Especially if you have actual records and merch to sell.
Bandcamp's benefits are, at least in part, illusory. Just because you can dump something (anything, actually) there for free, does not mean that anyone will be interested. If a tree falls in the woods .... comes to mind. Anyway, there are always alternatives. Youtube and Soundcloud are the obvious ones, I'm sure there are plenty of others.
I'm actually considering a Distrokid subscription at some point, since Bandcamp doesn't work for me. Ymmv of course and interested to hear how others see this.
I wont blame them if they add a monthly fee / rent. Is there any restriction how much you can upload now ? It's their space / storage. Having netlabels of any genre uploading hundreds of releases each that noone cares to buy. A fee -in case you dont reach a sales minimum per month- solves that 'problem' and i am sure they will do it eventualy. This ofcource may lead smaller artists to exit. Better or worse ? Depends on your point of view. If you use Bandcamp as the only source of your music, then that would be a major change, to see artists you followed to leave, but that may lead people to change their new habit and return back to the traditional physical purchases.
For people like me who rarely have spent money for digital files -that's not to say i dont download / pirate / use them from people who share them or if there are free. I just refuse to spend cash for files. Cant justify such purchase at most cases. - , nothing will change. Maybe less music would be 'available' around in the internet. But at this point, i dont think that would be a bad thing too. More focus on those you have.
Quote from: Theodore on October 11, 2023, 09:28:26 PMI wont blame them if they add a monthly fee / rent. Is there any restriction how much you can upload now ? It's their space / storage. Having netlabels of any genre uploading hundreds of releases each that noone cares to buy. A fee -in case you dont reach a sales minimum per month- solves that 'problem' and i am sure they will do it eventualy. This ofcource may lead smaller artists to exit. Better or worse ? Depends on your point of view. If you use Bandcamp as the only source of your music, then that would be a major change, to see artists you followed to leave, but that may lead people to change their new habit and return back to the traditional physical purchases.
For people like me who rarely have spent money for digital files -that's not to say i dont download / pirate / use them from people who share them or if there are free. I just refuse to spend cash for files. Cant justify such purchase at most cases. - , nothing will change. Maybe less music would be 'available' around in the internet. But at this point, i dont think that would be a bad thing too. More focus on those you have.
I agree. Perhaps a fee might also be enough for some self-moderated quality control on releases---akin to the need to buy blank tapes for your release in the ye auld days!
In line with expectations, half of bandcamp work force laid off:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/bandcamp-layoffs-following-songtradr-acquisition-1234855267/
(story may be behind pay wall. Oddly I did get to read it earlier today)
Now just expecting how much all the fees and cuts will rise and if monthly fee is implemented for more users.
Quote from: Theodore on October 11, 2023, 09:28:26 PMI wont blame them if they add a monthly fee / rent. Is there any restriction how much you can upload now ? It's their space / storage. Having netlabels of any genre uploading hundreds of releases each that noone cares to buy. A fee -in case you dont reach a sales minimum per month- solves that 'problem' and i am sure they will do it eventualy. This ofcource may lead smaller artists to exit. Better or worse ? Depends on your point of view. If you use Bandcamp as the only source of your music, then that would be a major change, to see artists you followed to leave, but that may lead people to change their new habit and return back to the traditional physical purchases.
Yes, it is certainly something one understands 100%. Why would company offer unlimited free space for artists who create only cost and not profit. Indeed, one could think it is positive if not every joke you create, will be uploaded, but you'd start to think is this worth of putting out there.
For example there has been comments that these days, after discogs became harder and more difficult to handle, its original purpose as database where items are being listed, has suffered. Bigger sellers have commented that new inventory they get, used to be already listed there. Now more often than before, they got to list it first before being able to sell. Merely indicating that 1) selling new inventory happens less 2) less fans there to do it. In some music genres, thing that you often can not even sell something, entire label may be banned for market place, it therefore removes entirely that route where discography gets updated as byproduct of sellers listing inventory. Leaving it all up to fans. Therefore it may take long time for data of repressings etc appear - if they come at all.
So, action that is taken to improved and make something profitable, may have counter effect that wasn't really evaluated. Lets say bandcamp would become too expensive that large portion of non-profit underground music leaves? It may mean that so leaves certain % of audience and users, who may have been the most vocal bandcamp street team, spamming every underground music users email with links and offers of the company. Next thing could be that you just don't hear about them in a way that you'd go to the site. As useful and full of stuff it is, if it wasn't "check my bandcamp" links provided, don't go to the site almost at all.
I stopped selling my stuff in Bandcamp some while ago, when I found out that they sold themselves to the bigger company, which is connected to even bigger companies/multibillionaire owners (that happened about 1 year before I knew about it). Didn't feel like to support that type of business with my music/art (which supposed to be opposite for that type of business-mind-world). So, my albums are there available only to listen (and some digital versions are free to download).
Physical copies are listed in Discogs - but I suggest anyway for people to order without any of those companies between. Direct transaction if possible, no fees to anyone.
BUT "funny" thing is, that after my new cool rules, no-one has been asking the digital or physical versions of my albums (ok.. maybe few, but those came from old contacts). It's like it's too difficult to send an email to make the order. Everything should be "company organized click'n'pay as fast as possible"-solution. My system is also kind of "eternal bandcamp friday", but that's still not enough for the potential customers. Maybe people just like to fund procents to billionaires and to support their glorious lifestyle - or they just don't want to be in direct contact with the artist (which might make sense... somehow... or does it?).
I used to have a habit to upload everything to Bandcamp and to keep the catalogue living there, but now I am looking for something new and more fresh.
I don't know how many have tested selling digital files via their own store? If you got people who want to buy files, would they be into ordering them via "Shopify", "limited run" or whatever cart system someone is using? I have feeling as if buying files is so much more connected to INSTANT access, that if you buy album, and have to wait for 1-2 days for artists to notice new order, and send you the download link, it feels very different from automatic system?
What Magma says here, seems anomaly in underground. I have talked about it in past, but it is curious situation. As guy who comes from era when DIY ethos was strong, and opposition toward big corporations what almost automation, it has been slightly amusing to see how little criticism would be when it would be now like "iTunes", "amazon", "google", etc... Sure I have account on fb and YouTube too, but its not like I'd be most avid promoter of those or making them my exclusive outlet.
In situations where artists makes moral decisions and gets all upset if other artists may have said or done something "wrong" is not that rare. Seems more rare that perhaps those folks would compare, how bad is that, compared to former BC owner, Epic Games who was owned 40% by Chinese mega corporation. No problem being in direct financial mechanism and volunteer promotion campaign for it. Of course people can, but it is quite curious that I doubt I have ever seen others than Magma* above address the problem and then act according his principle?
Quote from: magma* on October 21, 2023, 09:14:12 PMI stopped selling my stuff in Bandcamp some while ago, when I found out that they sold themselves to the bigger company, which is connected to even bigger companies/multibillionaire owners (that happened about 1 year before I knew about it). Didn't feel like to support that type of business with my music/art (which supposed to be opposite for that type of business-mind-world). So, my albums are there available only to listen (and some digital versions are free to download).
Physical copies are listed in Discogs - but I suggest anyway for people to order without any of those companies between. Direct transaction if possible, no fees to anyone.
BUT "funny" thing is, that after my new cool rules, no-one has been asking the digital or physical versions of my albums (ok.. maybe few, but those came from old contacts). It's like it's too difficult to send an email to make the order. Everything should be "company organized click'n'pay as fast as possible"-solution. My system is also kind of "eternal bandcamp friday", but that's still not enough for the potential customers. Maybe people just like to fund procents to billionaires and to support their glorious lifestyle - or they just don't want to be in direct contact with the artist (which might make sense... somehow... or does it?).
I used to have a habit to upload everything to Bandcamp and to keep the catalogue living there, but now I am looking for something new and more fresh.
I think there are two different behavior patterns for the potential buyers.
One is buying something you KNOW will be good, and you actively look forward to - new release from one of your favourite artists, or labels that you are obsessing about. To make this kind of purchase, I am sure fans will easily pass the hurdle of sending an e-mail to get the release.
Another is "exploration" purchase. Considering a purchase of a release that MAY be good, based on recommendations, similar artists or any previews on Youtube. I think to make a purchase like this, fans expect seamless and automated process because in many ways it is "unfair" to expect them not only to buy something they are unsure about, but also do it in a way that is no longer conventional.
The issue these is given how much music is out there (even in somewhat niche world of noise/industrial), almost every purchase these days falls into "exploraton" bucket, and there is always more music to buy than money earned. There is no surprise that fans prioritise simpler options in terms of user-experience.
P.S. You could also consider something like what Old Europa Cafe does. On their website, there is a basket and a form, but all it does is essentially sending an e-mail to the label owner. After that, everything (including direct PayPal payments) is sorted by e-mail. But the first step is friendlier and more "automated".
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on October 23, 2023, 10:18:06 AMIn situations where artists makes moral decisions and gets all upset if other artists may have said or done something "wrong" is not that rare. Seems more rare that perhaps those folks would compare, how bad is that, compared to former BC owner, Epic Games who was owned 40% by Chinese mega corporation. No problem being in direct financial mechanism and volunteer promotion campaign for it. Of course people can, but it is quite curious that I doubt I have ever seen others than Magma* above address the problem and then act according his principle?
After Epic´s takeover Folkstorm deleted their BC, and you cant buy Nordvargr digital anymore, just stream. Fuck BC.
Quote from: Krigsverk on October 23, 2023, 04:22:07 PMAfter Epic´s takeover Folkstorm deleted their BC, and you cant buy Nordvargr digital anymore, just stream. Fuck BC.
But on their website digital versions are available. For example this one: https://www.nordvargr.com/shop/nordvargr-resignation-i-digital-release
It looks like to work in a way like what Penon told in his message. And that's probably a good way to handle the digital sales. No extra fee to anyone... except to Paypal (argh!), unless if we use the ´send to friend´ option (but that doesn't work always, there are some restrictions for some users).
Today when I was checking transactions from recent Discogs sales, I couldn't believe the fact that there are massive amounts of fees in their system! Look at their own example: https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/cs.discogs.com/MP+Help+Center+Images/ENGLISH/Understanding+Discogs+Selling+Fees/partner+fee+new+.jpg
There's a product with price 25 euros. Customer needs to pay naturally the shipping and then 7,54€ tax (already a lot!). But the seller will get the fee-penalty: -2,43€ and -10,93€ ... total amount from the product (shipping not included) is 11,60€ !!!! The seller gets less than HALF of the original price! Isn't that just totally SICK!?
I was using (and actually still) Discogs as a plan B after leaving from Bandcamp, but now even that doesn't really fit to my head. Have to go back to basics... just a list of available products to own website, and waiting to get email orders. Or is that too primitive way? If we (or some of us) really need to clickable catchy-easy purchase buttons so badly, what would be a good option? Shopify? Limited Run? Are those actually any better?
I am still OK to use Bandcamp or even Meta and Google (to share my works, and to find other people's works) - but not in a way that I would pay them anything. So far adblocker has been working well in Youtube as well.
Yeah Discogs fees are shit, but unless you already have a group of dedicated followers there isn't really a viable alternative for larger releases?
A newsletter with announcing new stuff is always a good idea, but still how many newsletters and mails are you receiving already? Instagram announcements seems to work for some, but that feels very hype-y and artificial to me.
I have no idea.
New BandCamp eula today prohibits any covers unless you have express permission
QuoteWhat can I upload? Are covers OK? You must own or control all rights to everything you upload. That means covers are out, unless you have a written license or authorization from the artist to upload the cover to Bandcamp and grant us the rights in the terms below. Do not upload cover songs unless you have obtained all permissions and authorizations in writing! These requirements apply regardless of whether you're selling the music or giving it away. The full details are here.
No wonder, when the new owner is in music licensing business.
I would suppose next step might be mentioning that using movie samples etc belong under exact same category? If installing good enough automatic recognition system, it could prevent easily most of usage of samples. Already as is, I got one bigger band on my label who used extremely short movie sample within metal song, like couple sentences, and they had to make edit of the song without sample so it would not be always taken down from digital platforms where album is available. So CD/LP and digital version are little different merely due copyright reasons. Funny thing is that it is almost unrecognizable what the sample even says, but not for "AI". So what would be the future of abundant recycling of other peoples sounds/voices/samples in industrial noise releases?
My own experiences has been at YouTube, doing the usual "browsing of records at the store", as way of displaying customers what new arrivals there are, and YT recognizes COIL playing on background, as weird and abstract it is, still preventing video to be online due copyright violation,.. unless audio is muted automatically from moments when you can hear the song appear.
There are different regulations in EU and other places, and a lot of music that you try to listen at YouTube, has also copyright restrictions that can't be listened inside EU.
Though it seems mainly to be a DJ site, artcore.com seems underpopulated and worth checking out. If anything, there's a greater chance of people stumbling across noise by mistake!
Quote from: Confuzzled on October 27, 2023, 09:02:09 PMThough it seems mainly to be a DJ site, artcore.com seems underpopulated and worth checking out. If anything, there's a greater chance of people stumbling across noise by mistake!
I saw that some while ago, but the layout of artist pages didn't really get me in. I sent a message to them and asked if there would be some editing possibilities coming or planned already... but they never sent a message back. The default view of profile shows "Top Tracks" on top right. I assume it might be fun layout for some type of music, but for experimental/noise it doesn't really fit (and even if it would fit for someone, a good thing would be to have a chance to edit the view...)
My experience with bandcamp has been a very positive one.
As a fan:
I use the BandCamp wishlist to create a massive queue where I save any albums I'm interested in checking out. When I want to hear new music I turn to my bandcamp queue and start listening often listening to a track or two before promptly removing it from my wishlist and going to the next one. About 1 out of every 10 or so albums I end up keeping, maybe 1 out every 20 I end up purchasing. It's a very convenient place for about 90% of the new music I want to hear. I still buy physical off bandcamp as well as digital, all depending on the packaging, shipping costs, etc.
As an industrial/noise artist: I ran a label but never had an online shop that really got off the ground. I'd get maybe 2-6 sales per year online. Most of my sales were at live shows or through distros/shops. Signing up to BandCamp has increased my online sales to about 25-30 per year but one year I had about 95 sales (I was doing more promotion that year than the other years). So even though BandCamp gets a small cut of those sales it's WAY more worth it to maintain the site.
As a neofolk artist: My neofolk project is much newer but BandCamp has helped me grow the audience for the project as well as make sales.
Before I was using BandCamp I used BigCartel for merch sales and they would also take a cut of sales. I'm not sure if they offered digital but I never used it. Ever since I got my BandCamp pages up I haven't made ONE sale on the Big Cartel shop so it seems it is more or less obsolete.
Other Streaming Services: A few years ago I used CD Baby to distribute most of my music to the streaming services. I believe the service was about $65 one time fee to do it (there may have been a yearly amount too). After 2-3 years I saw not one cent from streaming while I was having steady orders from BandCamp coming in. So I canceled it. Streaming seems to be absolute shit for indie artists IMO.
I know there are a lot of labels/artists that talk shit on BandCamp and I'm guessing these are people who enjoyed a modicum of success independently before BandCamp but saw a drop in sales when the platform became more popular and now might see the same amount of sales through the platform but have the BC fee subtracted from each transaction? Otherwise I'm not quite sure why people would talk shit on it since it seems like an artist-first album-first kind of approach to online music to me.
I think the criticism has been quite well addressed by many, that would often (but not always) revolve around big companies who can dictate art and push expression or artform into undesired direction. From perspective of easy business, of course it may be the only(?) actually functional place where are can (or could) sell digital albums directly to fans?
Back in the day, there used to be even "mikseri noise skene" based around https://www.mikseri.net site. Finnish version of streaming services. Some pop ups are nuisance, but otherwise may be as good as many other things too.
I removed all releases from Bandcamp late 2022, not because the ROI was bad, it wasn't, but because I just flat did not want to maintain another platform. All releases that I make available digitally are available on Apple Music, Amazon, YouTube, Spotify and 100 others, so if you want to buy them you can find them easily enough, and stream to your hearts content. Rest assured Bandcamp will start banning things in the near future if it does not meet with their political or social stances. Same as everyone else. Changes come in slow drips, especially after a large corporate take-over where intellectual property is concerned and mediated.
I also do not use Discogs for the same reason, except as a customer to buy older tapes/CD's from people. Discogs seems very prone to ban things from being sold, and I don't believe in banning, even for things I don't like. Better for it to be available publicly than to be pushed further underground, the "Mein Kampf-principle". I recently was cleaning up my collection and found the Operation Miranda tape, and looked it and the label up at Discogs to find it was banned. Someone made that call, and can make that call against you one day. Should these companies dictate what/who can be sold? They sure can. Private space and all. Is it questionable content? Probably. Most likely. Should it have ever been released? The question answers itself. Same with N12. Should Hospital be banned because they released it once? Should FA be banned entirely? Of course not, but that's where it's heading. Good luck!
Bandcamp had already at least couple of "ban waves". At some point huge amount of obscene goregrind was banned. If you got vulgar song titles and obscene art, that was removed. Of course, there is fine line what is "real music" and what is just joke, and one could assume bc as company felt like we do not want to host this type of stuff what could get us in trouble.
A bit later there was purge in black metal. Relatively big bands would get get their pages deleted. Clandestine Blaze used to have site, but I had already removed everything else but (then) latest album, and it was free download. It was deleted before actual purges begin. A bit later Satanic Warmaster had everything removed. Then followed way way bigger and more popular names like Deathspell Omega, Funeral Mist, Destroyer666, etc... and even full label sites removed. Nobody would get any explanation what the "violation of terms" has been. Company would refuse to give any reason. For anyone who doesn't rely on them, no problem. Some others, who used it as source of income and suddenly kicked out with no explanation, it gives quite different view of how things work with bc. It's not like you would expect freedom to post whatever garbage or offenses, but if you can't trust platform due fact it could be just ruined by bunch of malicious anonymous reports, would it be very wise to start to build record label business on it? Already now I am quite surprised some of the veterans of harsh noise post so explicit material on it, since one would expect it just matter of time entire sites get taken down.
Of course other platforms may not be hugely better. Like mentioned in other topic, Jukka Siikala has his entire youtube account deleted, so did Infinity Land Press (Martin Bladh & Karolina Urbaniak). Both no warning, not just deleting supposedly offensive video. Just channel taken down, and "ban for life" type of message from youtube. Reason "violation of terms".
Quote from: DadaDrumming on October 30, 2023, 06:00:59 PMI removed all releases from Bandcamp late 2022, not because the ROI was bad, it wasn't, but because I just flat did not want to maintain another platform. All releases that I make available digitally are available on Apple Music, Amazon, YouTube, Spotify and 100 others, so if you want to buy them you can find them easily enough, and stream to your hearts content. Rest assured Bandcamp will start banning things in the near future if it does not meet with their political or social stances. Same as everyone else. Changes come in slow drips, especially after a large corporate take-over where intellectual property is concerned and mediated.
I also do not use Discogs for the same reason, except as a customer to buy older tapes/CD's from people. Discogs seems very prone to ban things from being sold, and I don't believe in banning, even for things I don't like. Better for it to be available publicly than to be pushed further underground, the "Mein Kampf-principle". I recently was cleaning up my collection and found the Operation Miranda tape, and looked it and the label up at Discogs to find it was banned. Someone made that call, and can make that call against you one day. Should these companies dictate what/who can be sold? They sure can. Private space and all. Is it questionable content? Probably. Most likely. Should it have ever been released? The question answers itself. Same with N12. Should Hospital be banned because they released it once? Should FA be banned entirely? Of course not, but that's where it's heading. Good luck!
More bad news for you https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/jon-stewart-the-problem-canceled-apple-creative-differences-1235623235/
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on October 31, 2023, 09:00:11 AMBandcamp had already at least couple of "ban waves". At some point huge amount of obscene goregrind was banned. If you got vulgar song titles and obscene art, that was removed. Of course, there is fine line what is "real music" and what is just joke, and one could assume bc as company felt like we do not want to host this type of stuff what could get us in trouble.
A bit later there was purge in black metal. Relatively big bands would get get their pages deleted. Clandestine Blaze used to have site, but I had already removed everything else but (then) latest album, and it was free download. It was deleted before actual purges begin. A bit later Satanic Warmaster had everything removed. Then followed way way bigger and more popular names like Deathspell Omega, Funeral Mist, Destroyer666, etc... and even full label sites removed. Nobody would get any explanation what the "violation of terms" has been. Company would refuse to give any reason. For anyone who doesn't rely on them, no problem. Some others, who used it as source of income and suddenly kicked out with no explanation, it gives quite different view of how things work with bc. It's not like you would expect freedom to post whatever garbage or offenses, but if you can't trust platform due fact it could be just ruined by bunch of malicious anonymous reports, would it be very wise to start to build record label business on it? Already now I am quite surprised some of the veterans of harsh noise post so explicit material on it, since one would expect it just matter of time entire sites get taken down.
Of course other platforms may not be hugely better. Like mentioned in other topic, Jukka Siikala has his entire youtube account deleted, so did Infinity Land Press (Martin Bladh & Karolina Urbaniak). Both no warning, not just deleting supposedly offensive video. Just channel taken down, and "ban for life" type of message from youtube. Reason "violation of terms".
Yea I agree I don't want to get too attached to any certain platform which is why I still maintain my website. There was a brief few days in the last few years where Facebook and all related platforms went down and everyone was freaking out because they couldn't promote and I was just pointed people to my website. Although I think it doesn't matter much these days I like to just have it for emergencies and a feeling of independence. I think moving my merch to a new platform if needed shouldn't be too big of a deal (I'm not doing distro or anything so it's not a huge database of releases).
The thing about streaming platform is that I have not made ONE DIME off of them and to me that seem like a subtle lurking evil to independent musicians. I have chosen out of principle not to put any more music Spotify.
Quote from: DadaDrumming on October 30, 2023, 06:00:59 PMI removed all releases from Bandcamp late 2022, not because the ROI was bad, it wasn't, but because I just flat did not want to maintain another platform. All releases that I make available digitally are available on Apple Music, Amazon, YouTube, Spotify and 100 others, so if you want to buy them you can find them easily enough, and stream to your hearts content. Rest assured Bandcamp will start banning things in the near future if it does not meet with their political or social stances. Same as everyone else. Changes come in slow drips, especially after a large corporate take-over where intellectual property is concerned and mediated.
I also do not use Discogs for the same reason, except as a customer to buy older tapes/CD's from people. Discogs seems very prone to ban things from being sold, and I don't believe in banning, even for things I don't like. Better for it to be available publicly than to be pushed further underground, the "Mein Kampf-principle". I recently was cleaning up my collection and found the Operation Miranda tape, and looked it and the label up at Discogs to find it was banned. Someone made that call, and can make that call against you one day. Should these companies dictate what/who can be sold? They sure can. Private space and all. Is it questionable content? Probably. Most likely. Should it have ever been released? The question answers itself. Same with N12. Should Hospital be banned because they released it once? Should FA be banned entirely? Of course not, but that's where it's heading. Good luck!
That was a big deciding factor for me in why I never started a bandcamp. They are too big now and will eventually engage with censorship as time rolls on. They already kind of do now and I've noticed they like to donate funds to political scams and what not. I would imagine soundcloud isn't a whole lot better either if I decided to take off the blinders and investigate further. Bandcamp's format looks nice and seems user friendly enough though.
Discogs is a totally out of control with the banning of music, there is no barometer either! It just gets banned, no questions asked and that's it! I agree with you, whether one agrees with something or not, it still needs to be free and left alone. Like you say, pretty soon it's like well this bad, so let's ban this and let's ban this thing to because this was once affiliated with this other thing ever so loosely and let's now ban this thing of a thing cause this was affiliated with that thing that was loosely affiliated one time many years ago...it becomes fucking pure insanity after a while!