(Please excuse the obtuse thread title but I couldn't resist the opportunity to use some intriguing acronyms...)
Stage 1: MYOPIC = Marking Your Own Person In Culture (nearsighted / shortsighted / narrow-minded)
Stage 2: MYOTIC = Marking Your Own Territory In Culture (excessive constriction of the pupil of the eye as a result of drugs, disease, or the like)
Stage 3: MYSTIC = Marking Your Surrounding Territory/Territories In Culture (involving or characterized by esoteric, otherworldly, or symbolic practices or content; (...) spiritually significant; ethereal.)
This thread is dedicated to the discussion of the culture of noise/industrial/PE etc, and how it presents itself in ADDITION to or BEYOND the music and artists. Specifically, I'm intrigued by merchandise, promotion, advertising, propaganda, signals/symbols, ephemera and other material/psychological aspects that help spread a project's name, ideas or message - both to those "in the know", as well as to potential outsiders. Are there means or methods that could only belong within this niche culture, or are we simply reusing tried and tested methods from larger cultures to help achieve this goal? Is the obscurity of a niche culture like PE by design (i.e. relative anonymity), or simply a result of not following rules that more prominent cultures thrive on?
I'll provide a simple example: an artist or project releases their latest album into the world. It's on CD, tape, vinyl or whatever format and it comes with visual artwork to house said format. Nothing too out of the ordinary so far. However, the customer also receives (unadvertised for argument's sake) a sheet of peelable stickers with the project's name or the album artwork printed on it, or a t-shirt with the project name or album artwork on it. It exists outside of the music, but still - it exists. One person receiving said extras might simply bin these useless trinklets as it serves no purpose other than as distraction. Another person might carefully file their stickers or t-shirt away alongside their album at home to form a private shrine or archive of sorts.
But, yet another person might put their stickers on their noise equipment or hi-fi, or play/attend a noise gig wearing the project's t-shirt to show support. And then, yet another person might decide to vandalise major cities by placing these stickers on prominent buildings/tourist attractions, or commit a very public crime whilst wearing their t-shirt in full view of the mainstream media. Same medium, different outcomes - subtle vs blatant, legal vs illegal, planned vs unplanned. Could the original project or its label have had these thoughts in mind when issuing these shirts and stickers out into the world?
Of course, there must be much more to noise and PE culture than stickers and t-shirts for spreading a message beyond the music or project (not that they are to be completely discounted methods!), so please feel free to list examples here - maybe consider what the intent and outcomes of such a project (and their audience) using such a medium is, and also what makes it unique to the "spirit" of noise/PE compared to another subculture? Whether it's the common or mass-manufactered (pins, totebags, hoodies, patches, posters/flyers, clothing lines), more limited/DIY efforts (fan clubs, graffiti, original artwork, handwritten letters, detritus from a recording session), audiovisual methods (non-official concerts/bootlegs, unedited recording samples/stems, radio shows/podcasts/social media etc), or even the truly bizarre or unusual (memes, cults, rituals, tattoos/body mod, naming your firstborn after a noise project etc), all are worthy of discussion.
And it goes without saying but imaginary, fantasy or future/speculative ideas are more than welcome too if that hasn't already been gathered! I do have to wonder what the perception of noise or PE will be like in the next 10-20 years. Will it be more of the same, still lurking in the underground (the MYOPIC or MYOTIC stage), or will it transcend into something completely different (the MYSTIC stage) than how it currently exists in the present?
MYSTIC
If that's too esoteric, how about a Stage 2.5 of MYTHIC = Marking Your Territory Historic In Culture?
I think it is some combination of all three (though particular projects likely focus on different aspects). As Genocide Organ said: GO YOUR WAY. FIGHT YOUR WAR.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on September 27, 2020, 08:45:58 PM
I think it is some combination of all three (though particular projects likely focus on different aspects). As Genocide Organ said: GO YOUR WAY. FIGHT YOUR WAR.
But if Genocide Organ/Tesco Organisation use the same promotional methods as your average mainstream rock band (t-shirts, hoodies, pins etc) to disseminate/promote their music's message of individuality, is their message still as effective? https://tesco-usa.com/product-category/shirts-merch/
Of course, if there's a secret fanclub within Tesco that issues more selective/discerning/unique material to its members, I would be FAR more interested to hear about that...
I truly enjoy the concept of a harsh noise sticker. However I am unable to utilize them in any was aside from excitedly shouting "look! A STICKER!!" when I get them in a package and then storing them in the small plastic tub filled with buttons, other stickers and patches. I occasionally think about plastering my mixer with them, and then I don't. They shall sit in that tub until I die or sell all my records.
I purchased the Merzbow "14 Birds in a Bag" set from Imprtant Records and the Merzbow tote bag that it came in is my prized grocery hauler. I have destroyed any potential resale value by hauling carrots and cilantro home from the market. I think Merzbow would like it that way.
Stickers are indeed underrated and especially hold value for younger people first getting into a subculture scene - I'm reminded of buying my first skateboard mag in my teen years and sending off a SAE to a mailorder service to get in return a catalogue and some sticker sheets of cool/professional brands/logos* to camouflage my not-so-cool/amateur first deck. Got to fake it until you make it! I have a small collection of noise stickers too, some of which I've picked up for free at shows and others which were given out by artists or friends. Never paid for them and I think doing so individually would be missing the point (stamped addressed envelopes excluded). They win out for me over t-shirts and most other mass-manufactured merch due to their light weight/size and cost, easy reproduction and their potential for humorous subversion - my favourite one was the unofficial New Blockaders sticker of some guy drunkenly pissing on himself in public that was produced in protest at the long delayed Nichts Fur Niemand release...
*Come to think of it, skateboard grip tape with a logo painted on it would make perfect promotional stickers if used by harsh noise projects...
Quote from: theotherjohn on September 27, 2020, 09:17:50 PM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on September 27, 2020, 08:45:58 PM
I think it is some combination of all three (though particular projects likely focus on different aspects). As Genocide Organ said: GO YOUR WAY. FIGHT YOUR WAR.
But if Genocide Organ/Tesco Organisation use the same promotional methods as your average mainstream rock band (t-shirts, hoodies, pins etc) to disseminate/promote their music's message of individuality, is their message still as effective? https://tesco-usa.com/product-category/shirts-merch/
I guess the question is who the message is meant to work on: yourself or others? If yourself, then it really does not matter how the communication of the message looks or what it seems similar too. If others, then there seem to be at least some reasons to think that you need to communicate in a shared language (and the usage of shirts to spread a message is a shared, common practice). Otherwise, it would not be communicable (it would be incomprehensible to the uninitiated other). I can see some potential objections to this, but it is a start, I guess.
By the way, I really like this thread idea. Very interesting.
Quote from: holy ghost on September 28, 2020, 12:57:06 AM
I truly enjoy the concept of a harsh noise sticker. However I am unable to utilize them in any was aside from excitedly shouting "look! A STICKER!!" when I get them in a package and then storing them in the small plastic tub filled with buttons, other stickers and patches. I occasionally think about plastering my mixer with them, and then I don't. They shall sit in that tub until I die or sell all my records.
I purchased the Merzbow "14 Birds in a Bag" set from Imprtant Records and the Merzbow tote bag that it came in is my prized grocery hauler. I have destroyed any potential resale value by hauling carrots and cilantro home from the market. I think Merzbow would like it that way.
I'm with you all the way when it comes to stickers. I can never use them on anything, because I worry that the sticker would be wasted if I ever happened to get rid of the thing to which it is attached. But then the sticker is just left unused...
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on September 28, 2020, 03:03:52 AMI'm with you all the way when it comes to stickers. I can never use them on anything, because I worry that the sticker would be wasted if I ever happened to get rid of the thing to which it is attached. But then the sticker is just left unused...
I have a skateboard I haven't used in 20 years because it has a totally thrashed Gob (Reno) sticker on it. I'll cart it around until my dying day. It's got a hella sick Cattle Decapitation sticker from their early days too.
I think the most effective way to market is a button or pin - The Rita pin that New Forces made is a huge favourite of mine. I have 15 different jackets/flannels depending on the season. A sticker sits placed, I like the pin it gets worn on something.
Quote from: holy ghost on September 28, 2020, 04:42:38 AM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on September 28, 2020, 03:03:52 AMI'm with you all the way when it comes to stickers. I can never use them on anything, because I worry that the sticker would be wasted if I ever happened to get rid of the thing to which it is attached. But then the sticker is just left unused...
I have a skateboard I haven't used in 20 years because it has a totally thrashed Gob (Reno) sticker on it. I'll cart it around until my dying day. It's got a hella sick Cattle Decapitation sticker from their early days too.
I think the most effective way to market is a button or pin - The Rita pin that New Forces made is a huge favourite of mine. I have 15 different jackets/flannels depending on the season. A sticker sits placed, I like the pin it gets worn on something.
Definitely. A pin is like a reusable sticker. I have had some that I have worn over the years too (though nothing music related!). More labels/distros should promote with stuff like that.
"Reterritorialization is when people within a place start to produce an aspect of popular culture themselves, doing so in the context of their local culture and making it their own."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reterritorialization
"When you will have made him a body without organs,
then you will have delivered him from all his automatic reactions
and restored him to his true freedom."
"This body is also described as "howling", speaking a "language without articulation" that has more to do with the primal act of making sound than it does with communicating specific words."
"This is how it should be done. Lodge yourself on a stratum, experiment with the opportunities it offers, find an advantageous place on it, find potential movements of deterritorialization, possible lines of flight, experience them, produce flow conjunctions here and there, try out continua of intensities segment by segment, have a small plot of new land at all times. It is through a meticulous relation with the strata that one succeeds in freeing lines of flight, causing conjugated flows to pass and escape and bringing forth continuous intensities for a BwO."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_without_organs
etc.
QuoteAnother person might carefully file their stickers or t-shirt away alongside their album at home to form a private shrine or archive of sorts.
https://thehardtimes.net/culture/man-enters-10th-year-of-searching-for-perfect-surface-to-apply-band-sticker/
Quote from: Cementimental on September 28, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
QuoteAnother person might carefully file their stickers or t-shirt away alongside their album at home to form a private shrine or archive of sorts.
https://thehardtimes.net/culture/man-enters-10th-year-of-searching-for-perfect-surface-to-apply-band-sticker/
Ha! Admittedly that sentence was written partly tongue-in-cheek, and I don't mean the oral sort...
Stickers are a bit like promo postcards in that respect. They're there to serve a purpose but the pressure to find the perfect moment for it means you'd hesitate to actually use it. So yes, most just file them away unused in a shoebox. Actually, when was the last time anyone actually sent out a postcard? They're not free to post, they're often illegible to read (handwriting is a dying art) and even if they were readable you wouldn't want the postman to casually glance over it, especially if it had some tempting or dubious artwork on the other side. I've even seen some that are still produced these days don't even have space on the back to write an address and message! Still, the uniformity and constraint of them is something to appreciate beyond the retro/novelty value, and they hold up better than a throwaway paper flyer. And like the entertaining satirical article above suggests, they're probably more abundant than you think given the costs to manufacture them. So if you're including them as extras with a package, don't be stingy. And certainly don't make it the selling point to making a release "special" or "limited" in any way.
I think the last genuine postcard I received out of the blue was one from Eric Lunde sometime after placing an order with him. Just a simple one to advertise new releases. A nice unexpected surprise to find in my letterbox given we're on other sides of the pond. I can't say that I sent him one back in return though.
I've never taken anything from a release and put it up in a public space. I used to not think about it at all and decorate my skateboards with the stickers. Clear grip tape was a discovery (didn't have all the grip options they did later on). I love patches, but I mostly just collect them in a bag. Favorites that I've managed to buy a 2nd copy from the label or band get swapped on/off on a baseball cap that I very rarely wear. Same hat has some pins that I also swap in and out. Promo stickers, which I prefer because they're mostly a no-brainer to use, end up on my bicycle frame. You would get more of an idea of what I like from my bicycle than from anything I wear.
I didn't know this until last week, but I guess Japanese vinyl pressings were once notorious for including a full insert of stickers. They were usually used, so it's rare to find them still in the album.
We were big on making our own stencils. For a while there, every T-shirt I owned had the Corrosion of Conformity skull spraypainted on the back. Venom logo on everything. Spraypainting our own shirts. Punk bands carrying around a logo stencil and spraypainting basements or T-shirts for fans rather than selling screened shirts. I'd have to give this some more thought, but I don't think I've ever seen a stencil provided in an album or as a promotional item.
If you start a graffiti project about harsh noise you will get $100 from me. Decent graffiti work of course.
Appreciate all the replies so far, very interesting. Seems like noise merchandise from the few examples given is something to wear temporarily when the mood or moment arises (a badge or a tote bag), rather than to be worn or shown off in all moments of day-to-day life? More transient than permanent, at least for some of us older enjoyers of noise who perhaps came to it after enjoying other more dominant activities or subcultures (skateboarding, biking, other music cultures). So if there is indeed a noise culture centred around forms of merchandise, then it's a relatively minor one that piggybacks or leeches from existing predominant cultures. And doesn't really do much else with it to make it its own culture. I see that as a shortcoming - either noise just hasn't found, adopted or developed an item or icon truly unique to this culture, or given its all/none encompassing nature it rejects such material artefacts? I'm shooting the shit here so don't take my word for the gospel truth, and I'm working with limited data and demographics (namely what replies I've got so far, and my imagination).
So if we're to get away from merchandise temporarily, how about other forms of culture that extend within noise? Probably the two most dominant cultures in mainstream music stem from rock music and rap music, both of which have specific forms of lifestyle within them that generally separates one from the other; be it in language/slang, recreational or sporting activities, clothing or dress sense, visual art preferences, gangs or criminal activities, politics etc. I could also discuss socio-personal attributes like age, race or the social class of their fans and followers, but given that truly all walks of life around the world apparently enjoy rock and rap, then I don't necessarily see that as so relevant beyond their origin stories - rap and rock over the course of a few decades have transcended to the MYTHIC/MYSTIC stages that I first suggested, whilst noise still lingers in the MYOPIC/MYOTIC stages. Could noise as a standalone culture (if it truly exists as separate to other established ones) ever occupy similar ambitions or possibilities in the world? I don't see noise having established a verbal/visual slang or language that separates us from other music cultures. We have no sign of the horns or West Side hand gestures. We don't wall of death or breakdance at shows. We don't have biker gangs or car hydraulics. We don't set fire to churches or graffiti bomb subway trains. Hell, we don't even have a preferred drug or drink choice (if we did, noise would almost certainly establish a more dedicated following!). Has noise as a culture somehow missed the boat then, if it ever really had a chance to set sail beyond this small island we occupy? I don't think the off-putting nature of noise as a musical type itself is entirely to be blamed - we can all agree there are more off-putting "musics" out there with an immeasurably more popular/wider hold on the world's population.
So the question then is, what went wrong in noise? Or if you want to be more optimistic, what could go right to make it bigger and better, if that is indeed a goal to achieve? Because the music itself apparently doesn't seem to be making progress alone, and selling a few t-shirts and hoodies in addition to our limited tapes won't cut it either in the bigger picture.
"Diversity Our Strength" is the motto of my hometown. And much like the majestic city of Toronto, noise seems to benefit from being a cross section of freaks rather than some kind of unified "scene" with identifiers.... I think the most common thing noise people have in common is the use of the Ariel Black font....
I don't think of it as a true "outsider" culture but noise seems to be the most "diverse" scene (not like actually diverse, it's still mostly white men) but you don't need to conform to being a certain "look" or "thought process" and that's good. I think this was pointed out by someone else here but it's rare that noise becomes the main focus at a young age and people tend to age into it after tiring of metal or punk or they keep their feet in multiple pies.... which is another appeal of it, you can expect noise people to be more aware of other connective scenes rather than hyper focused on their own micro niche scene..... maybe I'm wrong? I don't live in America..... What do I know? I guess what I'm saying is nothing is "wrong" with things within noise?
Quote from: holy ghost on September 30, 2020, 04:45:42 PM
I don't think of it as a true "outsider" culture but noise seems to be the most "diverse" scene (not like actually diverse, it's still mostly white men) but you don't need to conform to being a certain "look" or "thought process" and that's good.
Good point. Unlike black metal, noise does not have any equivalent to "kvlt" or "trve" that is used to hammer others who have different opinions or interests. It seems to me that many people in noise simply gravitate to those they find most interesting, and just ignore those they do not like without feeling the need to criticize. But, then again, maybe that is just my view as someone who did not get into the scene until after HNW became established.
With the greatest respect to all that is being said could I suggest that to compare 'noise' (PE and industrial for that matter) to main stream popular music might be an unhelpful comparison. Rock, Pop, Punk and Rap, were and in some cases still are massively popular especially to youth, adolescent youth, white adolescent youth at that. It "markets" a particular zeitgeist, which appeals to certain audiences... And I say 'marketed' e.g. recently Rob Halford admits " despite knowing he was gay aged 10, he didn't come out until 36 " for fear of the damage to JPs sales / fanbase. The origins of Noise, (and PE / Industrial) is very different, never intended as being aimed at a mass market, or being particularly popular. Bennett for instance claims 'musical' influence was Yoko Ono, his philosophical De Sade... others "I threw all my past music career in the garbage. There was no longer any need for concepts like 'career' and 'skill'. I stopped playing music and went in search of an alternative...." or Sam Mckinley's interest in minimal art and the work of Richard Long. My point is that whilst rock, pop may be 'serious' it does target specific audiences which I think Noise / Industrial / PE never did. Bennett is open about his targeting, and it was not it seems to be popular. So maybe the 'merch' thing isn't that important to / in Noise / Industrial / PE...(or can be a kind of parody of the mainstream... mass merchandizing) but the sound is, "no longer any need for concepts like 'career' and 'skill'"... and even more radically..."All of this was never about listening, it almost says." (referring to TNB). Might I offer then this idea that noise because of its focus will never attain mass appeal, but that doesn't mean it cant be very significant... but more then akin in comparison to Wandelweiser or free Jazz... but more radical..."All of this was never about listening, it almost says."
Finally this other element of Noise, that it can be seen to be a parody of mainstream music. One in which lack of skill, lack of sales, lack of audiences, of "labels" not being anything like Sony, or Virgin... but a DIY label operating from a bedroom and making small edition cassettes with Xeroxed inserts. Not like The Sex Pistols managed by Malcolm McLaren, signed to EMI - and Virgin = and platinum sales!!!
Noise, making, listening, the irrational response to an inescapable nihilistic consumerist world. A reversal of ALL its values...
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on September 30, 2020, 07:13:08 PMUnlike black metal, noise does not have any equivalent to "kvlt" or "trve" that is used to hammer others who have different opinions or interests.
Well I wouldn't go THAT far. Definitely some noise punishers out there!! However the noise edgelords seem a lot less laughable than the trve black metal kvlt bro's.
Quote from: holy ghost on October 01, 2020, 12:26:29 AM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on September 30, 2020, 07:13:08 PMUnlike black metal, noise does not have any equivalent to "kvlt" or "trve" that is used to hammer others who have different opinions or interests.
Well I wouldn't go THAT far. Definitely some noise punishers out there!! However the noise edgelords seem a lot less laughable than the trve black metal kvlt bro's.
Probably true, as I have a rather limited perspective on the noise scene in comparison with my interaction with bm fans. Maybe it's the willingness of noise to engage with controversial subject matter, as, despite the few gatekeepers that I have come across, there seems to be a lot more tolerance in the community.
However, I am only involved online - which likely means only exposure to the best and worse the respective scenes have to offer.
Quote from: theotherjohn on September 30, 2020, 03:24:42 PM
So the question then is, what went wrong in noise? Or if you want to be more optimistic, what could go right to make it bigger and better, if that is indeed a goal to achieve?
IMO make it bigger is something that should be avoided, and noise has perfectly succeeded in this. Wherever 'lifestyle' and bigger 'masses' are included / attracted , things turn to shit ! - Noise is a genre you have to discover on your own, either by luck, either by a friend, cause you are interested, not by following a mass which will happen if it becomes bigger, hype, lifestyle. - I guess that's why many people discover noise older, but also that's why most of them STAY , and keep their individuality.
I don't doubt that in parts of the world where there are reasonable scenes of people into this kind of thing, that is people who meet up on a regular basis for gigs and so forth, that a kind of uniform look, attitude, language, etc begins to form. It's a bit human nature. I expect these things to have some similarities between each other, but also regional differences.
There would definitely be crossover with other scenes, though. Since Noise tends to be something of a minority taste, it would rely more on connections with Metal, hardcore, etc scenes on the one hand, and "sound art" scenes on the other. While it's not unknown for people to straddle both poles, there are distinct differences there. But, for the most part, Noise as a scene-in-itself tends to be spread across other scenes. At least, that's been my experience.
In any case, with situations like this, there'll be those who opt for as much identifying inclusion as possible, and those who will just "be themselves" regardless. It depends on how seriously individuals take this scene business.
Personally I don't see it as any loss that Noise isn't some bigger identified distinct cultural phenomena in the way theotherjohn describes, but I don't see it as an issue if that did happen. If we take modern Noise scenes as having started in the 1980's, though (I know, sound-wise, it's antecedents are longer than that), it's been something like four decades we've been able to get by without hand-signs, slang, dance-moves, fashion and all the rest of it. There could be something unique in that, in itself.
On this forum, there's been discussion of things like a Noise "brotherhood", or "the PE lifestyle" and so on. People do like to have these kind off tribal identities. The thing with that is that, with most other popular music genres, they're pushed by consumerism, which is why people outside of those scenes latch onto various indicators like clothing and so forth. So far, Noise, as is, lacks commercial appeal, which is something else pretty unique for something that's been around for so long. What major label is going to sign up Hijokaidan or Bizarre Uproar and market them to young consumers around the world as the next big thing? For me, one of the great things about Noise is that it's almost impossible to water it down without losing its essence. If there was a distinct image, that might be co-opted. But with fourty to fifty minutes of pure screaming harsh sound, the only way you could make that palatable would be to put a dance beat on it, making it therefore extraneous to the dance beat. It's brilliant that Noise can work that way - it has to stand on its own, or it just becomes mere decoration.
If theotherjohn is saying "he music itself apparently doesn't seem to be making progress alone", I have to ask in what way that is a negative thing for those of us who dig Noise?
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on October 01, 2020, 08:16:26 AM
There would definitely be crossover with other scenes, though. Since Noise tends to be something of a minority taste, it would rely more on connections with Metal, hardcore, etc scenes on the one hand, and "sound art" scenes on the other. While it's not unknown for people to straddle both poles, there are distinct differences there. But, for the most part, Noise as a scene-in-itself tends to be spread across other scenes. At least, that's been my experience.
I recall seeing Sunn O))) in a church in 2006 or so and there was a definite vibe of "crossover" there - dudes in patched denim meeting with up the sound art people backed with the casual onlookers who'd read about it in one of the free weekly papers and had no real clue about either scene. I never caught Wolf Eyes back then but I'm sure the sub pop meets harsh noise bro must have been the same vibes. It wasn't bad vibes by any means but I also recall the great blog explosion (and Aquarius records reviews as well as places like Mimarogulu) of the early 2000's and many people (myself included) losing focus on specific things and just getting turned on to everything and anything. Of course you also had purists from every scene doubling down on their specific niche interest in response to that. Remember the "true doom" purists and the powerviolence elitists? I guess we call them punishers now....
I would like to think the hardcore scene of the 90's was a little more tolerant of "weird shit" with MITB, Gasp, Suppression, Brutal Truth.... The Locust etc....
When things head in the direction of economics and further reach/bigger presence, though I believe the intent was to discuss the development of noise culture outside of those things, I'm always taken back to the rather heated argument on the ol' Tumorlist, propelled by its moderator Phil Easter (Stone Glass Steel, Iron Halo Device, Malignant Records graphic designer). He REALLY pushed for noise/industrial culture to make it big, like Graeme Revell. To cash in on the skill and craftsmanship and value of this music, but it was significantly based on the artists getting paid what he felt they deserved. So everyone could make a living...a good living...which could only be a positive thing in his eyes, that they could dedicate more time, with better equipment and means, to their art. That "selling out" doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing. To bring greater attention, thus greater rewards, to this culture didn't necessarily have to be a negative thing. I hope I'm remembering his argument accurately. No intention here of misrepresenting his perspective.
I'm all for noise becoming bigger than it is, even if it results in "selling out" or some resulting commercialisation. There seemed to be promise with Merzbow or Whitehouse gaining some wider distribution (here in the UK you'd occasionally find their CDs in the major record chain HMV, although Merzbow was often stuck in the metal or electronic sections) or even with Wolf Eyes and Prurient crossing over to bigger labels. Or maybe even All Tomorrow's Parties, Adult Swim or Red Bull Music Academy lightly dipping their toes in, for better or worse. But I still see noise stuck in the ghetto, so to speak.
Perhaps if large musical equipment manufacturers were willing to sponsor/supply "professional" noise makers with gear like they do electronic music artists or rock musicians, artists might have a fighting chance to showcase what noise can/could be to the wider world? You would think the instrument builders would be happy to see more artists willing to push the sonic limits and capabilities of their equipment beyond 4/4 beats (conversely, maybe if noise equipment makers approached more mainstream musicians to shill their gear, there would be a similar effect? See the impact of streetwear fashion for example). Or what if in addition to noise festivals, you also had more industry-based (but not "industrial"-based!) noise conventions, tourist trips or even award ceremonies? They've done wonders for previously sordid/uncool cultures like porn, anime, videogames and comic books. Recognise and reward your history and heritage, whilst influencing and inspiring the next generations. Obviously there's downsides to noise potentially being a multi-million dollar industry of course (fame, excess, rabid fanbases) but these ventures could just be the sort of thing to notch noise up a step.
Alternatively, to sidestep the fame and fortune sides of this speculative future and approach noise more organically or communally, I would also welcome more noise shows/demonstrations breaking down the performer/audience divide. Noise is usually more fun to perform than to solely listen to, and when newcomers get a sense of how sounds are made, then they gain more appreciation for it. If everyone in the audience was supplied with the same rudimentary equipment (household, found or otherwise disposable objects) and given a script/score of sorts to follow and build from, noise could become much more interesting. But we're still stuck in a stale theatre tradition when you see many noise shows (and usually in traditional venues no less). I welcome more street actions, block parties and sound system parades for the celebration of noise, where all potential generations and backgrounds can get involved. Spanish speaking communities are especially encouraging of this, especially if pyrotechnics are involved.
Again, I'll state that I'm just playing devil's advocate here and having fun with these future noise fantasies which may or may not be entirely original, realistic, or even particularly well thought out...
The question still remains - in what way has Noise missed out on not having any of that conventional stuff? What negative thing is happening in that Noise doesn't have awards nights or endorsement deals? It exists. People are still playing live, recording, touring even. Whatever balance of events that have occurred so far seem to have served Noise quite well. Does Noise really need all that extra stuff?
Making a living is not the same thing as "selling out", as I see it. I would suppose Masami Akita would be the closest to actually paying bills from his live gigs and album sales. There could well be one or two more. But we all know the lack of probability with it. If Noise was something that had more potential for more people to make a living from it, it would be happening now. Perhaps people who have listened to Noise for a long time forget just how bizarre and unlistenable it is to people who have had no exposure to it. To get someone else to even sit with a recording for more than a couple of minutes is an achievement in itself, as far as I've seen. For the most part, it is the substance of Noise that either appeals or appals.
Other music genres have the conventions of at least being instantly recognisable as music, because they invariably have the standard elements of rhythm, chords, melodies, and so on. Noise does not - that's a lot of its point. Some examples may well have compositional qualities, but that's an appeal for people who are more used to it. There'd be no point playing a Noise recording to a random group of people not used to Noise and try to win them over by saying "actually, a lot of work went into this".
That Noise remains an outlier in the wider world of music is, at least to me, a great part of its attraction, but I can understand why people wouldn't care for that part of it. What I can't understand is why anyone would feel the need to change it. It isn't broken.
I think what also makes noise so interesting is that artists do what they like, not what audience wants. It's passion, not job. When artist starts making a living from his output, and gets used to it, then it becomes a job, naturally, and the creation proccess is diluted -at least- , and it becomes obvious on the result . - Will i sell ? What my customers like ?
I know, we all accuse others for "selling out" easily. Cause we hadnt have the chance we to sell out yet, maybe. Anything. We havent seen the money yet. And we will never see it probably. Cause most of us have nothing to sell. It's easy to hold your values and work when there is noone interested to buy them ! - The proper question when talking about sell out is ... For how much ? Then we can talk. It was worthy or not ?
Excellent thread, and I'll read more deeply when I have more time later on. But while I'm eager to contribute before starting work I'll say this - I find it funny that we're discussing the idea we could have "missed the boat" culturally because we don't tend to have outward identifiers or behavioural patterns. I quite like that your average noise/PE fan is "undercover" so to speak. I mean obviously you put aside people who have harsh industrial looking haircuts or wear all black all the time as a statement, but your average harsh head could look like anyone at all, and come from any walk of life. Dom Fernow said in the last Noisextra that noise is "leaving something behind", which is why I find elitism laughable in this genre. none of us went straight to listening to Incaps or GO. We all had some lame musical heritage or other. My musical revelation was hearing Marilyn Manson as a young teen. I'm pretty sure someone else on this forum said that they came to industrial in a round about way from 80s synthpop like Yazoo!
In short, your average noise freak is like a plain clothes police officer, operating under the radar, and I like that.
<RANT>
Quote from: Zeno Marx on October 01, 2020, 06:44:10 PM
When things head in the direction of economics and further reach/bigger presence, though I believe the intent was to discuss the development of noise culture outside of those things, I'm always taken back to the rather heated argument on the ol' Tumorlist, propelled by its moderator Phil Easter (Stone Glass Steel, Iron Halo Device, Malignant Records graphic designer). He REALLY pushed for noise/industrial culture to make it big, like Graeme Revell. To cash in on the skill and craftsmanship and value of this music, but it was significantly based on the artists getting paid what he felt they deserved. So everyone could make a living...a good living...which could only be a positive thing in his eyes, that they could dedicate more time, with better equipment and means, to their art.
Quote
Wolf Eyes' John Olson Says Noise Music Is Over: "Completely, 100 Percent"
Is Wolf Eyes slowly becoming a rock band?
We've always been a rock band. Now we're what i call a trip metal band.
And at the same time you're playing trip metal, a great majority of what once constituted the noise scene has started playing one form or another of electronic dance music.
A lot of these cats digging into the techno trend don't seem to be too-well versed in the history of dance music and that culture. So what they're coming out with is on the wrong side of naive and amateur. It seems like a lame attempt to get more people to gigs. socialize the music instead of keeping it alien and abstract.
Is noise over?
Completely, 100 percent. That's part of why I'm quitting the label. All the categories, everything has run its course. The whole solo culture of it has invented a million people playing by themselves trying to be geniuses. You're getting a million one-way conversations.
QuoteI threw all my past music career in the garbage. There was no longer any need for concepts like 'career' and 'skill'. I stopped playing music and went in search of an alternative.
I really dont understand those in this thread who want to make noise into nothing more than a commercial product. "You're getting a million one-way conversations." YES, precisely!
QuoteBeyond the rupture of the economic conditions of music, composition is revealed as the demand for a truly different system of organisation, a network within which a different kind of music and different social relations can arise. A music produced by each individual for himself, for pleasure outside of meaning, usage and exchange." (Jacques Atali in "Noise The Political Economy of Music" p. 137.)
that is why noise was or can be so different to music. You dont get blackbirds going to concerts, they all sing. Stand outside a Taylor Swift concert or Justin Biber and you will see 'merch' being sold, or sad 60 year olds outside a Yes concert.
Punk was typified by its rejection of prog rock, learn three chords, form a band and make punk music...it was never about "skill".
However Noise (not Noise Music USA please buy this stuff and make me rich) might be considered as a minor musical genre which needs promoting... why? Well maybe those who think so might have got it wrong? Music has been defined as organised sound, and noise as the very opposite. And what about "art" or should I say "Art" - personal expression, well no, mainly about expression of 'truth', the 'truth'... here one can see why and how in the USA many got noise wrong. Why the founders got it right, i.e. as anti art, as a exposure of the nature of (human) existence... of the revelation of sound AS OPPOSED TO MUSIC. As music the decadent opium of and for the masses.
Noise for many humans is unwanted sound, a by product of motorways and factories, aircraft etc. but in reality noise is just the sound of stuff, of the waves, of wind, of the universe. Storms are noisy, and Awesome, and real, and unless you believe otherwise not angry gods expressing themselves. i.e. made without 'skill' not for pleasure of commercial gain.
So we have 'music' on one side, a fairly insignificant phenomena in the cosmos, and 'noise' the actual sound of the cosmos. So why is noise so much more than music is that it expresses reality as it is without the human perspective, and all that goes with that.
Noise made by humans as a rejection, as absolute nihilism – not Mr Olson 's rock band...
Here is the philosophical equivalent, which I was censored for posting on noise wiki, obviously those there are very talented artists.... its about nothing, boredom and angst, not about stickers and T shirts... and when expressed in sound, well noise, HNW ... HN...
Nothing: Some notes taken from Heidegger's (German Nazi) What is Metaphysics?
The proper study of a subject is a Science. Each science is specific.
It studies its subject and nothing else.
What this nothing is, it ignores.
Yet when it seeks its essence, what it is, it needs this nothing, what it is not.
So.
What is this nothing?
The above question deprives itself of its 'Nothing'
The IS (BEING, THING-ING) deprives the NOTHING.
Thinking is always about something. How then can we think about nothing.
This is logical, must this logic stop us?
Well logic uses negation!
Is nothing part of logic's negation? Or is negation part of this nothing.
Premise: Nothing is more 'original', foundational than negation.
Then this nothing is essential to logic's negation.
If we question this nothing, we must be able to encounter it.
"Nothing is the complete negation of the totality of beings."
How then can we know this nothing if we cannot know this complete totality of beings?
The totality of beings is the whole, undifferentiated A Unity.
Boredom. We can be bored with a thing.
We can be bored with everything, a profound boredom. Nothing can present itself as not being boring. (how many of you into noise have been here? I mean HNW IS BORING)
This boredom is bored with the Whole, the undifferentiated unity, the totality if beings. (things).
This totality conceals the nothing we seek.
Can we experience this nothing in the face of this experience of the whole.
Yes – in profound anxiety. (familiar?)
Anxiety with what, in particular.
With nothing in particular, with nothing, with anxiety of the whole.
This reveals the nothing.
In profound anxiety we experience the nothing.
This doesn't annihilate being as a whole.
This nothing annihilates itself, we experience this, and so it reveals fully beings as such.
Beings as such not from our perspective but from the perspective of nothing.
Beings as they are - strange – different....
Only from this ground of nothing can we see the essence of being.
To BE, is to be held over into this nothing. To be there, Dasein. Authentic 'Being'. !!!!!!!!
This is transcendence, to be above all.
The revelation of nothing = no selfhood, but experience of nothing and so of freedom.
This opening of being to nothing is rare.
We normally bother with trivial particulars day to day.
Superficial. (Pop / Rock Music.. Shopping Malls and HMV...)
Nothing then permeates metaphysics, and metaphysics is the knowing of the underlying and foundation of reality. (i.e. the dreadful chaos of the cosmos = NOISE)
As most wont have bothered this far.. i'll add another German's thoughts on this...
Quote
And do you know what "the world" is to me? Shall I show it to you in my
mirror? This world: a monster of energy, without beginning, without end;
a firm, iron magnitude of force that does not grow bigger or smaller,
that does not expend itself but only transforms itself; as a whole, of
unalterable size, a household without expenses or losses, but likewise
without increase or income; enclosed by "nothingness" as by a boundary;
not something blurry or wasted, not something endlessly extended, but
set in a definite space as a definite force, and not a sphere that might
be "empty" here or there, but rather as force throughout, as a play of
forces and waves of forces, at the same time one and many, increasing
here and at the same time decreasing there; a sea of forces flowing and
rushing together, eternally changing, eternally flooding back, with
tremendous years of recurrence, with an ebb and a flood of its forms;
out of the simplest forms striving toward the most complex, out of the
stillest, most rigid, coldest forms toward the hottest, most turbulent,
most self-contradictory, and then again returning home to the simple out
of this abundance, out of the play of contradictions back to the joy of
concord, still affirming itself in this uniformity of its courses and
its years, blessing itself as that which must return eternally, as a
becoming that knows no satiety, no disgust, no weariness: this, my
Dionysian world of the eternally self-creating, the eternally self-
destroying, this mystery world of the twofold voluptuous delight, my
"beyond good and evil," without goal, unless the joy of the circle is
itself a goal; without will, unless a ring feels good will toward
itself--do you want a name for this world? A solution for all its
riddles? A light for you, too, you best-concealed, strongest, most
intrepid, most midnightly men?-- This world is the will to power--and
nothing besides! And you yourselves are also this will to power--and
nothing besides!
I could say IMO (which obviously the above is not) or I hope i've not offened- but maybe offence, disturbance in those who are offened by unwanted stuff, is something for them to ponder. I never got noise, as music.
[/RANT]
Quote from: theotherjohn on September 27, 2020, 07:05:38 PM
Of course, there must be much more to noise and PE culture than stickers and t-shirts for spreading a message beyond the music or project (not that they are to be completely discounted methods!), so please feel free to list examples here - maybe consider what the intent and outcomes of such a project (and their audience) using such a medium is, and also what makes it unique to the "spirit" of noise/PE compared to another subculture? Whether it's the common or mass-manufactered (pins, totebags, hoodies, patches, posters/flyers, clothing lines), more limited/DIY efforts (fan clubs, graffiti, original artwork, handwritten letters, detritus from a recording session), audiovisual methods (non-official concerts/bootlegs, unedited recording samples/stems, radio shows/podcasts/social media etc), or even the truly bizarre or unusual (memes, cults, rituals, tattoos/body mod, naming your firstborn after a noise project etc), all are worthy of discussion.
I am personally quite bored with the notions of "promotion" or "PR" lurking into noise. Some say it may be hypocrite talking, when label puts out releases, sends out promo mails, occasionally uploads tracks seemingly for nothing else than promotional purposes etc etc.. Yep, I know. It is difficult subject. Nothing like that was originally *planned*. Personal passions slowly mutate into daily work. Projects that existed without external motivator, becomes driven by more focused idea of making album that is presented for "audience".
Nevertheless, what I am turned off, is that I always considered noise to be in opposition of commercial mainstream culture. It would not have to be antithesis in every aspect of it, since same formats, same transportation, same venues, etc may be used. Yet it feels that many things that used to set the industrial noise apart from mainstream culture has been blurred. And furthermore, it is not like underground would have penetrated the mainstream. Somehow corrupted, infiltrated and abused it for its own advantages, but exactly opposite!
Ideas of special releases would be equal to bubblegum packages, rather than piece of art seeking to have effect on person experiencing it. Consumerism being on level that you just absolutely can not justify yet another tote bag and shirt being published with anything else than admitting what it is. Consumerism.
I have friends who have created utterly obsessive dislike for band clothing. I am not like that. Band shirts are basically 90% of what I wear. Yet I see the level of dislike when people become like walking billboards. I absolute loathe the popularity of things like brand clothes - especially in context of underground music. I simply do not get the obsession to be advertisers, walking billboard street team of Adidas, vans or whatever.
So, when topic mentions:
Quote from: theotherjohn on September 27, 2020, 07:05:38 PM
merchandise, promotion, advertising, propaganda, signals/symbols, ephemera and other material/psychological aspects that help spread a project's name, ideas or message - both to those "in the know", as well as to potential outsiders.
I am totally in opposition of "noise branding". Of course one may say you will be known for something regardless do you want it or not. That's fine. What I can not stand, is the process of contemporary branding process. Where even moderately positive words like propaganda, signals, symbols, and such are actually merely excuses used in process of branding.
This leads to questions like some already mentioned. Like what noise needs from "outside world" that it would be good to grow, spread wider? I am in all favor of a lot of currently transgressive and "underground" ideas and aesthetics to reach more people, but generally it would be good if it happens in terms of what is good in noise. Not that noise is branded and commercialized to fit the needs of consumer society. When you got bags full of unused patches and stickers, pins piling up in containers, it is almost like caricature of what underground could be.
So when there is a process of attempting to have wider reach for people, there is all the promotion, advertising, spreading name of project - I tend to ask... for what reason? I'd prefer to read good interview. I would prefer to hear what it is that artists is looking for to express. I am fine with just creating kick-ass noise that satisfies the thirst for hearing such sound. Generally I would hope and desire for more. That there is something more to it, some alternative, displaying the true heritage of noise where is was most definitely just another style of music, that follows the same logic and purpose as learned from pop culture.
So, absolute yes for reaching more people. Hesitant no thanks, if it happens with watering down art form to be nothing else but one shallow side note on pop culture.
Quote from: JLIAT on October 02, 2020, 11:51:41 AM
I really dont understand those in this thread who want to make noise into nothing more than a commercial product. "You're getting a million one-way conversations." YES, precisely!
I think some of this, for some people, can be explained pretty easily. When arguing with Mr.Easter, for example, I seem to remember thinking that not only was he an outsider in an industrial/noise culture sense, but he was also an outsider to DIY/underground culture that **I** associate with punk and metal. You know, the greasers. Not putting that on a pedestal, either. I simply got the impression, if memory serves, that he didn't come from that angle, so "selling out" was of no concern or no considerable negative consequence to his perspective. They say the same thing about people who grew up in the social media age, that because they're being sold to 24/7 --and not only by corporations and business, but even by their own friends and all the people they follow-- that the idea of "selling out" makes no sense to them. They consider themselves a product themselves. It's like a foreign concept to think of consumerism and commercialization as negative.
I'm not on this side a bit, and I'm also not attempting to be the devil's advocate.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on October 02, 2020, 05:44:03 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on October 02, 2020, 11:51:41 AM
I really dont understand those in this thread who want to make noise into nothing more than a commercial product. "You're getting a million one-way conversations." YES, precisely!
I think some of this, for some people, can be explained pretty easily. When arguing with Mr.Easter, for example, I seem to remember thinking that not only was he an outsider in an industrial/noise culture sense, but he was also an outsider to DIY/underground culture that **I** associate with punk and metal.
....
I'm not on this side a bit, and I'm also not attempting to be the devil's advocate.
I'm not aware of the argument with Mr Easter... Ok so many now into these 3 different genres Industrial / PE/ HN HNW might have come via the punk / metal route, but they came into these genres, which were already established and which had little or no origin in them, or in fact in certain cases "music".
Maybe there is an "DIY/underground culture" associated with punk and metal. - but both were very mainstream popular music genres, and I cant see how then can such a scene be underground "underground, is a term to describe various alternative cultures which either consider themselves different from the mainstream of society and culture, or are considered so by others. " Punk topped the UK charts as did Metal. So how is it underground? Punk and metal were mainstream, both taught to degree level in many universities....
Throbbing Gristle formed in 75, (contemporaneous with punk), whose origins was Fluxus & the prostitution exhibition at the ICA, COUM Transmissions who operated in the UK from 1969 through to 1976. As I said Bennett cites Yoko Ono and De Sade, is critical of rock bands, guitars and punk, formed Whitehouse in 80. Those discovering Noise et al who think its an extension or development from punk and metal as far as i'm aware are simply wrong. It may have been their route into noise...OK, fine, but that is no account of noise's development. There might be some 'scene' which has been established in the USA? which relates / conflates noise, PE and Industrial with a DIY culture of Punk and Rock, fine, but I cant see it has anything to do with these genres origins or motivations. Nothing particularly wrong with that other than missing the point that noise is not some minor genre of popular music which needs promotion, and thinking it has anything to do with human skill and talent is equally mistaken.
Just so we're crystal clear here you're..... asking for an explanation on how punk and metal could be considered part of the DIY/underground?
Quote from: holy ghost on October 02, 2020, 07:23:14 PM
Just so we're crystal clear here you're..... asking for an explanation on how punk and metal could be considered part of the DIY/underground?
No - i'm saying in the terms of what an underground scene is, punk / metal being mainstream cant be, if any underground scene these days exists, which i doubt.
And that the origins of noise and its 'aesthetics' nothing to do with Punk or Metal.
Trent Reznor and NIN are huge and sell out stadiums so by your definition industrial and noise can't be considered underground either......
Quote from: JLIAT on October 02, 2020, 06:58:31 PM
Those discovering Noise et al who think its an extension or development from punk and metal as far as i'm aware are simply wrong. It may have been their route into noise...OK, fine, but that is no account of noise's development. There might be some 'scene' which has been established in the USA? which relates / conflates noise, PE and Industrial with a DIY culture of Punk and Rock, fine, but I cant see it has anything to do with these genres origins or motivations. Nothing particularly wrong with that other than missing the point that noise is not some minor genre of popular music which needs promotion, and thinking it has anything to do with human skill and talent is equally mistaken.
I definitely don't think it is an "extension", though for some, it arguably could be, thus it could also arguably be for some a developed thing. I also don't think this is a USA thing. In the 80s, Japanese punks and thrashers were messing with noise and industrialism. I hope I'm not missing your point here.
Quote from: holy ghost on October 02, 2020, 07:52:08 PM
Trent Reznor and NIN are huge and sell out stadiums so by your definition industrial and noise can't be considered underground either......
The definition was not mine but wiki, which gives NIN as Industrial rock industrial alternative rock electronic rock industrial metal dark ambient... and sure by the late 80s Industrial which began in what could be considered as an underground scene in the mid 70s had exerted a wider influence. And i think noise - Jap Noise... had some significant performances in venues such as The Royal Festival Hall.
The avant garde gets (or got) subsumed into the common place. But given the Wiki definition above - it uses the term " alternative rock " alternative to what? Like the term 'experimental' - its become just a tag.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on October 02, 2020, 08:03:05 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on October 02, 2020, 06:58:31 PM
Those discovering Noise et al who think its an extension or development from punk and metal as far as i'm aware are simply wrong. It may have been their route into noise...OK, fine, but that is no account of noise's development. There might be some 'scene' which has been established in the USA? which relates / conflates noise, PE and Industrial with a DIY culture of Punk and Rock, fine, but I cant see it has anything to do with these genres origins or motivations. Nothing particularly wrong with that other than missing the point that noise is not some minor genre of popular music which needs promotion, and thinking it has anything to do with human skill and talent is equally mistaken.
I definitely don't think it is an "extension", though for some, it arguably could be, thus it could also arguably be for some a developed thing. I also don't think this is a USA thing. In the 80s, Japanese punks and thrashers were messing with noise and industrialism. I hope I'm not missing your point here.
Its not that noise hasn't been used in music, The 1812 uses real cannons, 'I want You' on Abbey Road uses white noise...
My point is that noise, HN HNW as being different from other music, it can carry no message, it requires no human skills... it can be such that deliberate or accidental, and the results carry no clue, such that the term 'music' is difficult.
I mean fire up audacity, use the generate white noise, then apply Bass Boost freq 500, boost 30 and you have HNW. I just did, what does it mean, what is it that makes it significant?
Back on topic of "should noise be bigger?" I feel like in 2020 noise is the biggest it's ever been. I'm trying to put my finger on why, but you have Troniks selling out of CDs in a few days, deluxe reissues coming at you faster than you can swing a dead cat around, multiple podcasts, zines and tons of interest/acceptance in this stuff. Is this just me or has noise reached a level of acceptance different from even a few years ago?
Quote from: JLIAT on October 02, 2020, 08:31:21 PM
My point is that noise, HN HNW as being different from other music, it can carry no message, it requires no human skills...
I could swear just yesterday I listened to a beautifully and humanly skillful and meaningful noise tape multiple times on repeat.
Quote from: holy ghost on October 02, 2020, 09:29:46 PM
Back on topic of "should noise be bigger?" I feel like in 2020 noise is the biggest it's ever been. I'm trying to put my finger on why, but you have Troniks selling out of CDs in a few days, deluxe reissues coming at you faster than you can swing a dead cat around, multiple podcasts, zines and tons of interest/acceptance in this stuff. Is this just me or has noise reached a level of acceptance different from even a few years ago?
I wanted to type a whole lot of words about how much more industrial techno has become for the last few (lets say 10, 15) years, even after the Hands and Ant-Zen years, but then I was thinking old hardcore / gabber labels where also quite industrial in their own way and I could be sitting here all evening spending my night convincing people that are already convinced, or will never be convinced so before anyone is going to be bored me rambling about techno on a noise forum I just going to leave the first paragraph:
'How much I dislike JLIAT posts, he does have a point in how one 'sees' noise and industrial, how people (want to) see the narrative of a genre, the scene or people involved in it and how much he or she is willing to diverge to other genre's or artists that are related or have crossovers in sound and theme, but are obviously different and not part of the traditional noise or industrial scene. Or what someone wants to identify with, because after all, noise can be as much music as a cultural identification. Same with this forum, is it a noise forum? Yes, obviously, but even then it only attracts a narrow band of all noise listeners worldwide, so everyone will be in some way oblivious what the other will see'
In the end, we are all just a bunch of idiosyncratic weirdos, of course there is no way to be marketable to a bigger audience.
Quote from: holy ghost on October 02, 2020, 09:29:46 PM
Back on topic of "should noise be bigger?" I feel like in 2020 noise is the biggest it's ever been. I'm trying to put my finger on why, but you have Troniks selling out of CDs in a few days, deluxe reissues coming at you faster than you can swing a dead cat around, multiple podcasts, zines and tons of interest/acceptance in this stuff. Is this just me or has noise reached a level of acceptance different from even a few years ago?
I think releases selling out are not so good indicator, unless you know how big editions are. I think a lot of Troniks CD's were like... 200. Sometimes even less! I recall some years ago those White Gold CD's being 150 or so?! When Troniks was doing ltd 100 -200 LP's back in the day, they would also sell in blink of an eye. Now that one releases absolutely classic bands in small edition, divided to couple labels, I would assume it is not sign of growing popularity. Just a fact that CCCC or Dead Body Love are so good, they can move small edition fast.
I think zines has suffered a bit from lack of distribution? Considering that a lot of guys mainly sell via discogs, and there are not that many "old style" distributors who would carry zines in bigger quantities. Postage is becoming so annoying that its hard to keep price good enough compared to content of zine...
Podcast format - I have no idea how many people listen, but it is thousand(s) for more established ones. I think format would allow a lot potential, for more makers to do things. Now that Harsh Truths is going to hiatus, it is mostly Noisextra what we have? So popularity of podcast in general is hard to estimate if there is one to follow?
We have talked about this with some friends, and in Finland, which is certainly not comparable to many other countries, noise may have unusually big popularity. it may not always correlate with sales or audience at gigs, but at least most people involved in "underground music" are familiar that there exists things such as noise or power electronics. Same for artists.
In finland, it was already some years ago when PE bands played in biggest metal festivals, interviews in radio and TV, and such. I think visibility may be good if stuff is something people can handle. Finn PE is something that may be counterproductive to be too visible, haha... This is something that may be worth to note in discussion of "popularity". In what ways it is counterproductive for artist as well as probably even genre. Again, speaking of what I see other people say, how in hindsight they feel that they were nothing but prank on stage. Just gimmick to somewhat amuse or amaze people, instead of... taken seriously for what they do. Not talking about shitting on stage on rubber mask type of seriousness, but that pure noise in itself, when attempted to popularize/normalize, seems like it may just.... go to waste.
Quote from: KDH on October 02, 2020, 09:43:47 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on October 02, 2020, 08:31:21 PM
My point is that noise, HN HNW as being different from other music, it can carry no message, it requires no human skills...
I could swear just yesterday I listened to a beautifully and humanly skillful and meaningful noise tape multiple times on repeat.
The idea that creation is pointless and meaningless is understandably grim. As for repeat, the idea of such a world Nietzsche found the most gruesome of ideas. Lets hope he was wrong and you are right.
Quote from: W.K. on October 03, 2020, 12:55:23 AM
'How much I dislike JLIAT posts,
Why?
Quote from: W.K. on October 03, 2020, 12:55:23 AM
In the end, we are all just a bunch of idiosyncratic weirdos, of course there is no way to be marketable to a bigger audience.
How do you measure the significance of anything? Say in Art or Science... by its fan base size? So in pop music, its its popularity, I think on Youtube Bohemian Rhapsody has a billion plays. Most pop bands are compared to The Beatles in terms of popularity... films on box office sales...
In a democracy you get Trump as president, whatever the vote rigging he has a bigger following than the HNW scene... and he is no Einstein. Who here understands SR and GR fully, can do the maths? I can't. What are the consequences, (apart from the Atom Bomb!). Well that most peoples ideas of time and cause and effect are wrong. Is this important? Maybe. People who have a religious belief it seems live happier longer lives. Its maybe nicer to think some supper being made us, rather than we evolved from single celled organisms... etc. The Fan base for religion world wide is BIG. It has its stickers, and merch...
Quote
PC 25 b 22
This the shelf-mark in the British Library for Juliette, a novel by the Marquis de Sade....
the shelf mark indicates the book is in a "special category" and you will be monitored by the staff when you read it. It's never been in the top sales for fiction.
Back in 1800 and something some guy wrote a book, i think he sold 5 or 6 copies, in which at the beginning some guy utters "God is dead"...
There is a very popular film The Matrix... you might have seen it?
Quote
Simulacra and Simulation (Simulacres et Simulation in French), published in 1981, is a philosophical treatise by Jean Baudrillard. The Matrix makes many connections to Simulacra and Simulation. Neo is seen with a copy of Simulacra and Simulation at the beginning of The Matrix. He uses the hollowed book as a hiding place for cash and his important computer files. Neo's hollowed copy of the book has the chapter "On Nihilism" in the middle, not at the end of the book, where it is in reality...
Maybe you get the picture, but maybe not.
Back in the early 21stC noise made a huge impact in academia. Unlike any 'popular' music before... because it was so radical, it the noise... there were many seminars and books trying to figure out what this noise was all about, what it meant. That is what rattled them...
Quote
In the end, we are all just a bunch of idiosyncratic weirdos, of course there is no way to be marketable to a bigger audience.
Then its safe.
(http://www.jliat.com/vom.jpg)
Then it is not safe at all...
Mulling over it for the past day or so, I can maybe think of one example where noise (or at the very least, non-musical sound) has become a phenomena or culture treading into the mainstream - auto[nomous] sensory meridian response, or ASMR (https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20180605-the-weird-whispering-videos-that-brands-want-to-cash-in-on). It's easy listening noise for sure compared to what we enjoy/tolerate, but it's noise no doubt (and arguably just as perverse as PE if its critics are to be believed) and rather popular going by the views, durations and brand deals of certain YouTube channels and videos. And demographically, it seems to be the flipside to our brand of noise with its large female following and roster of ASMRtists. Should we just start marketing noise as ASMR from now on if we want to reach a bigger audience? The Rita could be selling out stadiums if so.
There is also the sister phenomena of misophonia (hatred of sound), a sort of inverse to ASMR which seems to be largely centred on repetitive trigger sounds (= music?). BBC Radio 2 once focused on this subject during one of their popular daytime segments but curiously enough, I first found out about this from a very isolated female sufferer I met online who was also massively into black metal.
Of course, you also get crossover ASMR/noise stuff like this: https://www.vice.com/en/article/gvnw3m/noise-show-toothbrush-yellow-swans-merzbow-conspiracy. I've still yet to see this take off in the same way within noise circles as, say, breakdancing does at hip hop concerts, but it's a unique sort of crowd participation nonetheless. Maybe noise audiences should get "noisy" too at shows beyond merely cheering - popping bubblewrap, ruffling loud clothes, scraping nearby surfaces etc - by way of expressing enjoyment and further fuelling the live sound? It would certainly make a change from just standing there with your arms folded.
That is an interesting take (ASMR). I know a bartender that admitted to me she really enjoyed the sound of throwing empty glass beer bottles into the bin. The sharp, high pitched clatter made her feel good. I consequently gave her the Sissy Spacek "Glass" (Misanthropic Agenda, 2009) CD. She is no fan of noise, but that release was openly welcomed and curiously enjoyed.
As far as "culture" is concerned... One unifier more prevalent than most is cut-up collage art. While not unique as an art form to noise, it is so ubiquitous that I find it hard to ignore. I'm not sure there is any larger point to make of that. Just an observation.
Quote from: MyrtleLake on October 05, 2020, 07:41:23 PM
The sharp, high pitched clatter made her feel good.
So...uh, is she cute?
Mikawa. I think we all like the idea of Mikawa. I have this feeling, don't ask me why, that the subject of recent Incaps sales are rare to crop up in the weekly updates with the team. That and that infamous Snuff Jazz tee, which he says he made himself and appears on at least two album covers (maybe he has several such tees). So maybe a good start would be making your own favored artist's merch, in editions of 1.
Man I'm useless at contributing to this topic.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on October 07, 2020, 07:04:35 PM
..... So maybe a good start would be making your own favored artist's merch, in editions of 1.
Man I'm useless at contributing to this topic.
Not so fast there, I think for me "So maybe a good start would be making your own favored artist's merch, in editions of 1." is right on the money...
A kind of epiphany occurred when queuing to get into the Centre Pompidou, on a first Sunday (all museums are free) – the queue was miles, so we skipped and went to the the Musée du quai Branley, a museum of ethnographic* art from around the world... and it knocked me out, there was all this fantastic stuff made by guys who just made stuff not for some big museum or show!
It also chimes with another idea, that of 'cargo cults' where so called primitive peoples make fake aircraft control towers, after experiencing technologies of the real thing during WW2.
So both of these and " a good start would be making your
own favored artist's merch, " would IMO fit "Marking Your
Own/Surrounding Person/Territory In Culture"... emphasis on OWN.
* these are giant wood gongs - well over 10 feet some of them... pity no one could play one... i'd never seen anything the like... etc.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/c0/57/f3c057b23f24563f828e5a8bca023900.jpg)
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on October 07, 2020, 07:04:35 PM
So maybe a good start would be making your own favored artist's merch, in editions of 1.
Man I'm useless at contributing to this topic.
This makes me think of an older thread on here about making your own art for your favorite projects (covers, posters, etc.). So I think that this is a great idea.
One thing that I have started doing recently is finding and then printing out and saving physical copies of interviews, articles, and so forth on power electronics and related subjects. I am trying to piece together my own zine compilation/archive for the purpose of personal inspiration.
Quote from: JLIAT on October 07, 2020, 07:23:59 PM
* these are giant wood gongs - well over 10 feet some of them... pity no one could play one... i'd never seen anything the like... etc.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/c0/57/f3c057b23f24563f828e5a8bca023900.jpg)
Those are really cool. Though, given the context in which you mentioned them, the only natural thing to do would be to construct and play your own!
Quote from: JLIAT on October 07, 2020, 07:23:59 PM
* these are giant wood gongs - well over 10 feet some of them... pity no one could play one... i'd never seen anything the like... etc.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/c0/57/f3c057b23f24563f828e5a8bca023900.jpg)
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1013/1343304673_f0dfb9fc7f_z.jpg)
Technically those aren't "Gongs" & remind me more of gigantic percussive woodblocks.
gong
[ gawng, gong ]
noun
a large bronze disk, of Asian origin, having an upturned rim, that produces a vibrant, hollow tone when struck, usually with a stick or hammer that has a padded head.
a shallow bell sounded by a hammer operated electrically or mechanically: The fire-alarm system will automatically sound the gong.
(in a clock or watch) a rod or wire, either straight or bent into a spiral, on which the time is struck.
British Slang. a medal or military decoration.
verb (used without object)
to sound as a gong does; ring, chime, or reverberate.
ummm sort of lusted after cymbals & gongs... and probably still do... ~shrug~
BTW hiya James long time no see/read/debate/argue
hope you are doing well & having fun with you Eurorack!
Karlheinz Stockhausen - Mikrophonie 1 - Film 1966
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhXU7wQCU0Y
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on October 07, 2020, 08:22:24 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on October 07, 2020, 07:23:59 PM
* these are giant wood gongs - well over 10 feet some of them... pity no one could play one... i'd never seen anything the like... etc.
Those are really cool. Though, given the context in which you mentioned them, the only natural thing to do would be to construct and play your own!
This was my point, unlike contemporary art which exists in world wide systems of distribution and sales much of the stuff in the ethnographic museum was made by people for themselves or locally. BTW i like your idea of your own zines. I dont know if you are aware of lulu, a self publishing service which is very cheap, even for hardback books. With runs as limited as a single copy, you could have your own library.... which was your own...
Quote from: WhiteWarlock on October 07, 2020, 09:31:41 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on October 07, 2020, 07:23:59 PM
* these are giant wood gongs - well over 10 feet some of them... pity no one could play one... i'd never seen anything the like... etc.
Technically those aren't "Gongs" & remind me more of gigantic percussive woodblocks.
gong
[ gawng, gong ]
noun
a large bronze disk, of Asian origin, having an upturned rim, that produces a vibrant, hollow tone when struck, usually with a stick or hammer that has a padded head.
a shallow bell sounded by a hammer operated electrically or mechanically: The fire-alarm system will automatically sound the gong.
(in a clock or watch) a rod or wire, either straight or bent into a spiral, on which the time is struck.
British Slang. a medal or military decoration.
verb (used without object)
to sound as a gong does; ring, chime, or reverberate.
ummm sort of lusted after cymbals & gongs... and probably still do... ~shrug~
BTW hiya James long time no see/read/debate/argue
hope you are doing well & having fun with you Eurorack!
Karlheinz Stockhausen - Mikrophonie 1 - Film 1966
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhXU7wQCU0Y
Well they were called 'gongs' as far as i remember, but maybe a bad translation from the french. They were hollow... i'd like to know more if anyone can provide info, or better a link to a sound file. And there were massive metal gongs, how they made these given the technology is sobering...
I guess given the topic i can reply on a personal note. Eurorack is now full... but note literally trying to find a personal territory out of the the city... and given this pandemic its a nightmare...
Also have the idea of creating a personal meta/pata physics... ;-)
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/309995
The towering slit gongs of northern Vanuatu are among the largest musical instruments in the world...
Dimensions:H. 14 ft. 7 1/4 in. × W. 28 in. × D. 23 1/2 in.
14 feet!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp2HL6pC_PU
Quote from: JLIAT on October 08, 2020, 10:40:18 AM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on October 07, 2020, 08:22:24 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on October 07, 2020, 07:23:59 PM
* these are giant wood gongs - well over 10 feet some of them... pity no one could play one... i'd never seen anything the like... etc.
Those are really cool. Though, given the context in which you mentioned them, the only natural thing to do would be to construct and play your own!
This was my point, unlike contemporary art which exists in world wide systems of distribution and sales much of the stuff in the ethnographic museum was made by people for themselves or locally. BTW i like your idea of your own zines. I dont know if you are aware of lulu, a self publishing service which is very cheap, even for hardback books. With runs as limited as a single copy, you could have your own library.... which was your own...
Interesting point about the ethnographic objects (for lack of a better word, I guess) when compared with contemporary art. I guess the question becomes, then, how have the ethnographic objects changed as a result of their placement within the modern museum system/international art trade? It reminds me also of an ad I saw in the Wall Street Journal yesterday for an upcoming auction where a dentist's set manufactured for a queen of Spain will be put up for sale. It is definitely not an art object in it's original use (it had a functional aspect as well as an aesthetic one), but it seems to have become one now.
Perhaps it has been hinted at above, but it seems that the same thing might happen to noise/p.e. if it enters the more traditional art realms.
I have not heard of Lulu, but I think I might look into it if I compile enough material. Great idea!
I think the idea of Art and Artist is a western 'invention'. Developed from the Renaissance onwards, in both fine art and music. Whereas once these were very much crafts people doing what their patrons wanted, (normally the church and nobility) during the 18th / 19th they achieved a higher status, that of genius. Thus the value of their works... 'ethnographic' "Art" - well its seeing these objects in a different context. But for me its not the privileged gallery museum context of today that is significant, but their original context where they were made without the ideas regarding western art.
Certainly pre agrarian art existed in smaller communities without the institutions of civilization. So for me it shows how making, music, or perhaps sounds, and images is something far more fundamental than the structures we now live in. I think this stuff (wasnt art back then) begins around 40,000 years ago, agriculture @ 10,000 years. There are "flutes" @ 40,000 year old...
As for Lulu, i'd recommend it. As there is no charge until you actually order a hard copy i'd suggest you practice using it and setting up a book. PDF is preferred, but JPG and Word also. The front back cover (full colour) is created separately, they have templates but you can set the layout without these, which gives you greater flexibility. Once you have your book you can down load the pdf and see what it looks like, you can also keep the book private. So no cost until you actually order a hard copy.
Options include hardback, or perfect binding, in various sizes... lulu sets its price, you can then add yours on top. They will even provide a bar code.
Quote from: JLIAT on October 08, 2020, 07:13:30 PM
So for me it shows how making, music, or perhaps sounds, and images is something far more fundamental than the structures we now live in.
It makes one wonder what the structure of this fundamentality of creation is. Will to power, perhaps?
The Nietzschean WTP is the Eternal Return of the Same... ('The most gruesome of ideas') which chimes with more recent ideas of multiverses, i.e. in an infinite universe there will be infinite repetitions of everything and everyone. For myself I cant go with this – for the identity of indiscernibles (Leibniz). So? The world for me is more than I'm able to grasp, it's noise.... ;-)
As I was gathering pins, patches, and whatnot from clothing, bags here, boxes there, and wherever I littered them in/on my stuff, I was thinking about the uniform and if it would be less, or more, acknowledged today than in the past. My gut reflex is to think it would be even more frowned upon than in the past. Even with the volatile political climate and the paramilitary wingers (or maybe because of them), the black and/or gray surplus uniform would more readily stand out in our homogenized society. Maybe it is nothing more than my convoluted sense of what is acceptable today and what was common yesterday in big cities that makes me think a person in all black with bloused pants and boots would be frightful to some now, where as in 1985, it would barely get a second look. I haven't been to a punk show in a long time, but back then, the uniform was a dwindling aspect of the culture. It had become so rote that it had been discarded by most. Maybe it would again have impact today.