I looked but could not find a thread about this. When listening to or creating noise, do you prefer it to end with a clean fade out into silence, a sudden stop, or something else? What contexts make you prefer one over the other? Are there any particular releases that come to mind that finish in one of these ways exceptionally well?
I was thinking about this yesterday when listening to some of Hal Hutchinson's scrap metal noise, and I realized that the cd ended with a really sharp and sudden stop. I realized, though, that by ending in this way, a nice contrast between the noise and silence was created.
best feeling after a hnw session the abrupt stop silence back into this world
That would depend on the structure of the song. I don't think it is appropriate to give out preferences with regards to unspecified songs etc, except in the case of HNW which should always end abruptly.
As long as it stops i'm fine. If it doesn't begin even better.
If the piece is longer than 10 mins and the ending gets your attention - it stinks.
Depends on the nature of the material and on the composition itself. An abrupt ending, a composed and controlled fading as well as an artifical fade can have it's place.
When creating noise myself I try to somehow construct a beginning and an end during the recording, however sometimes the material demands an artifically created start/stop created in a DAW.
Quote from: accidental on January 16, 2021, 09:53:41 AM
As long as it stops i'm fine. If it doesn't begin even better.
If the piece is longer than 10 mins and the ending gets your attention - it stinks.
Yeah, I would have thought a far more pertinent question would be how to start a piece! Y'know, sometimes a bracing blast at the start can get the attention, but often what follows fails to hold it. Probably much better a slow-ish build-up to the 'good bit' (assuming there is one!).
As you mentioned noise I think processing the beginning or end with fades can 'musicalize' the piece. An end fade has a metaphorical resonance with distance – something get quieter as it recedes. For me metaphor is yet another more musical device. Recently I've just switched off effects in the final effect chain – which can create some interesting artefacts as can physically unplugging the inputs.
@ burdizzo1 I think a slow build up is also musical contra noise – much of classical symphonic music 'builds' up which again is kind of metaphor - an orgasmic metaphor... as does increasing the tempo – which you find in ragas. I think discernible structures are again the 'enemy' of noise – as say recognisable images in a abstract painting...
I tend to prefer not editing at all if possible. The best ending is some kind of audible unplugging/switching-off/tape-stop/smashing the equipment
Quote from: Cementimental on January 18, 2021, 01:26:48 AM
I tend to prefer not editing at all if possible. The best ending is some kind of audible unplugging/switching-off/tape-stop/smashing the equipment
I didn't even think of that one, but it might be my favorite. It makes the recording feel way more alive.
Quote from: JLIAT on January 17, 2021, 05:25:43 PM
As you mentioned noise I think processing the beginning or end with fades can 'musicalize' the piece. An end fade has a metaphorical resonance with distance – something get quieter as it recedes. For me metaphor is yet another more musical device. Recently I've just switched off effects in the final effect chain – which can create some interesting artefacts as can physically unplugging the inputs.
@ burdizzo1 I think a slow build up is also musical contra noise – much of classical symphonic music 'builds' up which again is kind of metaphor - an orgasmic metaphor... as does increasing the tempo – which you find in ragas. I think discernible structures are again the 'enemy' of noise – as say recognisable images in a abstract painting...
I can't see how "fade" would be more musical than "physically unplugging inputs to create some interesting artefacts"? Latter seems perhaps even more process of human creation for sake of art/music.
For ending noise, I think it is purely what track (or album) requires and what one intents to do with it. What types of noise it is. It is not all abstract and all about distortion. Word itself has so much meaning in it, that it would foolish to think noise is only this static hiss. Noise can be also described as "a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes disturbance." A lot of pure HNW does not seem to cause ANY disturbance whatsoever. Static, balanced, comfortable. Like taking warm bubble bath. It's fine, but its is barely -disturbing-. In that sense, it feels to me as if some
NWW is more noisy than HWN. Loud, unpleasant, disturbing moments. It is EXACTLY, as if as say
recognisable images in a abstract painting. You thought to rest your eyes in comfortable mess of abstract splatters, and then you see glued newspaper clipping of -WHATEVER- in some corner. Disturbing. Unpleasant. Unexpected. Recognizeable image, perhaps, but in context of work, one may ask
what did you recognize?
Work may demand being fade out. Pause button jammed slowly. Stopping the making of noise -and recording that actual happening. Or perhaps just doing something what is equivalent of image of toilet pasted on otherwise seemingly comfy and stylish abstract splatters.
In my own work I use all things. I do think the end or the transition is important, BUT, as said, it is entirely up to material. Sometimes it would be absolutely unfitting to do "artificial fade" or add somewhat cheesy reverb tail in track. Clumsy abrupt stop may be exactly the needed unmusical, "uncool" stop. However, both seem artistic decision and compositional matter. Even decision of allowing chaos and randomness, seems compositional/artistic decision.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on January 18, 2021, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on January 17, 2021, 05:25:43 PM
As you mentioned noise I think processing the beginning or end with fades can 'musicalize' the piece. An end fade has a metaphorical resonance with distance – something get quieter as it recedes. For me metaphor is yet another more musical device. Recently I've just switched off effects in the final effect chain – which can create some interesting artefacts as can physically unplugging the inputs.
@ burdizzo1 I think a slow build up is also musical contra noise – much of classical symphonic music 'builds' up which again is kind of metaphor - an orgasmic metaphor... as does increasing the tempo – which you find in ragas. I think discernible structures are again the 'enemy' of noise – as say recognisable images in a abstract painting...
I can't see how "fade" would be more musical than "physically unplugging inputs to create some interesting artefacts"? Latter seems perhaps even more process of human creation for sake of art/music.
I can – to a certain extent – agree with "physically unplugging inputs to create some interesting artefacts" being " even more process of human creation" - however I said "I've just switched off effects in the final effect chain – which can create some interesting artefacts" not the same thing. - the "to create" is missing from my original – so you misquoted- "which can" - no intention on my part... A fade is more musical – as it uses a 'musical' effect – the illusion of something moving away. Music – in organising sound has many such 'tricks'. Minor keys seem sad- unlike major keys – tempo excites – themes are resolved... Whereas noise uses sound as is- i.e. feeback, clipping, distortion. Lack of harmony, rhythm and structures. Abstract sound – not thematic music. (Obviously IMO)
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on January 18, 2021, 10:39:37 AM
For ending noise, I think it is purely what track (or album) requires and what one intents to do with it. What types of noise it is. It is not all abstract and all about distortion.
Once noise becomes "about" something other than itself it becomes IMO 'Music'.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on January 18, 2021, 10:39:37 AM
..... "a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes disturbance."
True – a subjective reaction to sound – which is why I think Merzbow said he thought pop music was 'Noise' – i.e. he found it unpleasant. But the less subjective definition is "random fluctuations that obscure or do not contain meaningful data or other information." And in the genre that is what occurs – I dont get any impression of skateboarding in "skate" or of Whaling in "Bloody Sea"...
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on January 18, 2021, 10:39:37 AM
A lot of pure HNW does not seem to cause ANY disturbance whatsoever. Static, balanced, comfortable. Like taking warm bubble bath. It's fine, but its is barely -disturbing-.
But its considered as part of the genre of noise – so the definition " "a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes disturbance." is not appropriate – and "random fluctuations that obscure or do not contain meaningful data or other information." is. OK if you want a subjective definition – fine – i'm coming round to that myself – but you would in that case see all HNW and HN as not being noise. Many people buy it and enjoy listening to it... i'm not fond of MOR music – but I dont think it part of the genre "noise".
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on January 18, 2021, 10:39:37 AM
...
Even decision of allowing chaos and randomness, seems compositional/artistic decision.
Sure - that is what separates Noise from other Genres – not it sounding unpleasant – many find rock or heavy metal unpleasant – or prog rock – as an example in Hegarty's book. For me its Trad Jazz - can't stand it. It was the decision to allow "chaos and randomness," that generated a wider interest in noise.
Here an example "Noise; conceived as interference, randomness, and fluctuation below the threshold of measurement; is often framed, in the humanities, as undermining the 'static ontology' of representative reason...." from a PHD thesis – yes I know!!!!
when the tape runs out
Quote from: JLIAT on January 18, 2021, 11:46:06 AM
Music – in organising sound has many such 'tricks'. Minor keys seem sad- unlike major keys – tempo excites – themes are resolved... Whereas noise uses sound as is- i.e. feeback, clipping, distortion. Lack of harmony, rhythm and structures. Abstract sound – not thematic music. (Obviously IMO)
I have my doubts. It is more about pasting theory on thing what won't sustain as soon as you introduce even simple argument. Such as most noise artists have not, and do not treat noises as "non structure". I have never meet noise creators who make noise in terms of "whatever goes". Most of sound, they carefully craft and select. Even more so, than the random guy pulling chord on instrument. Even sound, as is, is most often choice and composition. Even if there would not be sad minor key or tempo that involves traditional instrumentation - you'll find tempo, harmony, rhythm and structure in most of noise. You got vast difference is the noise sort of uplifting energetic blasting, or dragging and brooding bassy roar.
Examples. It is like
Incapacitants - where early on Kosakai was advised to have "more modulation" to keep up with pace of Mikawa. Is the consciously playing making it less noise? Could anyone dare to suggest that Incapacitants would not be pretty much as noise as noise gets? Even if recognizing even compositional (ie: more modulation! Don't stay still & stagnant!) and skillful playing.
You got
The Haters, where subtle rhythm and harmony is there. Or say
The Rita. A lot of stuff seems in perfect harmony of crackle and rumble.
The New Blockaders textural distortion and metal object screech, feedback squeal.
Emil Beaulieau fierce rumble of anti-records skipping and crackling on non-music surfaces played with needle. And so on. I guess we talked before, that there is NOISE, which is real, existing, abundant of variety.... and then there is one mans vision of anonymous noise generator. That latter one is just one small fraction of thing known as noise. No amount of theory will change this when actual concrete world shows otherwise. To conclude mentioned examples would not BE noise, would be foolish. Therefore, to compose, to play, to introduce artistic or musical element to noise - even "fade", it really ain't more musical, than guy recording noise with moving microphone.
"Noise; conceived as interference, randomness, and fluctuation below the threshold of measurement" - sure, but in context of stuff being made, released and listened, this is one tiny element in a whole. Such noise generally is magical quality that makes rest of noise have qualities one did not plan to. One one is aware of phenomena - for example your tape deck being malfunctioned in a way that it unpredictably distorts, warps, malforms the sound you hoped for - very quickly it turn as conscious musical element with only relative little of "randomness" when you take into account that it is replicated, observed and released.
What Florida Man -says above, I am curious how many like or dislike that noise tape ends into seemingly random moment of "magnetic tape running out" ? If harsh noise piece is 30 mins long, should it be dubbed to C-62 or ok that sound just abruptly cuts in "middle", hah... Perhaps I am approaching thing more as "music", and the randomly ending to space running out of format most often feels odd. I don't object it, but I recognize it being one of least favorite ways of release ending.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on January 18, 2021, 03:53:34 PM
I have never meet noise creators who make noise in terms of "whatever goes". Most of sound, they carefully craft and select.
That is an interesting observation. So a kind of a preference for, let's say a certain texture of distortion (like the often mentioned "crunch", mid-heavy sound) could be viewed as a rest of "musical intent" buried in the noise.
We have had this conversation before – and I have with others. I happen to disagree. Lets take the extreme – HNW – anyone can make it – Audacity – generate white noise then use the Bass boost. I've offered the Pepsi test – of a shuttle launch and a Rita Track. I even mistakenly reviewed three works thinking they were all from Vomir – they were not. So I think we must agree to differ.
Though you mention TNB – and from their site - " As merchants of 'anti-music,' they embrace Luigi Russolo's 1913 Art of Noise manifesto and although Russolo is widely credited as being the first major noise theorist .." "TNB refuse a virtuosity of the newly musicalised object. "Later recordings and performances even lose the residual possibility of 'properly playing'" "as does the distinction between music and non-music (where, in this case, music would just mean the sounds purposely created or replayed by 'musicians.') " "This rejection of the notion of the creative genius (as seen in Dada) extends to TNB collaborations, which range from Organum through The Haters to Merzbow " "individuality is swamped as the material gets more isolated from any controlling 'artistic' force, " But once the 'music' is essentially made of noises, structured noisily and disruptively, without offering a welcoming form, any recombination takes it further from artistically recognisable modes of talent, skill, etc. even if a certain audience would 'appreciate' this music as if it had those attributes.".... "If Noise Music was ever noisy in a way that afforded any critically-useful theorization of noise, then it was only ever so for a brief moment. Almost immediately following the first sonic experiments of TNB, The Haters and Hijokaidan, Noise Music's noisiness, it seems, was tamed, subsumed into a predictable, codified art practice "
My emphasis.
"even if a certain audience would 'appreciate' this music as if it had those attributes." - who are it seems mistaken ;-)
P.S.
Given your definition of noise -> "a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes disturbance."
Then
" I recognize it being one of least favorite ways of release ending."
Should be one you would tend to always employ....
I don't always do this, but I love cutting off after a sudden change in the piece. Like something that wasn't there the entire time is there for the last .5 secs to take the floor out of the listener. Sometimes something shrill for a last sting or so ducking low that it knocks the whole thing off. I HATE editing afterwards, but with tapes I have to make sure there's two symmetrical time slots, so when editing i often try to find a point of this to cut into.
Also love the Crass effect, where the track ends quietly for next track to be very loud before the quiet track even completely ends.
Quote from: accidental on January 16, 2021, 09:53:41 AM
As long as it stops i'm fine. If it doesn't begin even better.
If the piece is longer than 10 mins and the ending gets your attention - it stinks.
https://kevindrumm.bandcamp.com/track/we-all-get-it-in-the-end (https://kevindrumm.bandcamp.com/track/we-all-get-it-in-the-end) I always already have dread whenever I put Imperial Distortion on, because by the time the very last minute of the double cd album goes on, I'm too in the zone and drowsed over the bed/couch. The minute by itself is probably not his harshest work, but as it's presented I can never forget the feeling of it, it's the only thing that truly gets hair in back of my neck to perk up every time.
Quote from: tinnitustimulus on February 23, 2021, 07:54:08 AM
Quote from: accidental on January 16, 2021, 09:53:41 AM
As long as it stops i'm fine. If it doesn't begin even better.
If the piece is longer than 10 mins and the ending gets your attention - it stinks.
https://kevindrumm.bandcamp.com/track/we-all-get-it-in-the-end (https://kevindrumm.bandcamp.com/track/we-all-get-it-in-the-end) I always already have dread whenever I put Imperial Distortion on, because by the time the very last minute of the double cd album goes on, I'm too in the zone and drowsed over the bed/couch. The minute by itself is probably not his harshest work, but as it's presented I can never forget the feeling of it, it's the only thing that truly gets hair in back of my neck to perk up every time.
I have had this same experience many times with album. What is it nearly 2 hours of drone and 1 minute of jerk you awake harsh noise? So effective, even when you know it's coming after so many listens.
I actually like very abrupt endings with noise especially when there's just some seconds of silence between it and the next one that resumes overwhelming my senses again.
Depending on how you punctuate a recording at the beginning or end it can drastically alter the dynamics of a whole piece, and endings can actually become transitions to next parts etc. It really depends where you're ears want to go (if you're creating something), or where your brain thinks things are going if you're listening to the work of someone else. A lot of mother savage releases are good for this, as there'll all of a sudden be a silence, you think it's over then it picks up somewhere totally different. Sometimes though one is only left with certain options & creative use of a fade or addition of something else to play tricks on the ears and distract attention is needed.
Quote from: Major Carew on March 16, 2021, 06:45:45 PM
Depending on how you punctuate a recording at the beginning or end it can drastically alter the dynamics of a whole piece, and endings can actually become transitions to next parts etc. It really depends where you're ears want to go (if you're creating something), or where your brain thinks things are going if you're listening to the work of someone else. A lot of mother savage releases are good for this, as there'll all of a sudden be a silence, you think it's over then it picks up somewhere totally different. Sometimes though one is only left with certain options & creative use of a fade or addition of something else to play tricks on the ears and distract attention is needed.
I really like the silence technique or that one where the is prequent breaks between blasts of whatever. It gets really trippy and a lot easier to get lost in but at the same time there's always some degree of shock therapy going on.