In an interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YCZDnIMG7k), Chris Groves mentioned he thought Toshiji Mikawa's album "Gyo-Kai Elegy" to be beautiful. I have to admit it took me by surprise as until then, I hadn't really equated Noise with anything that could be called beauty. It's still an interesting idea to me. I had always happily equated Noise with ugliness, filth, anger, all the so-called "negative" emotions (which I don't always regard as a negative). But as others have pointed out before, Noise can exhilarate to such a positive level that one can find beauty in it.
What do others think? Can Noise be beautiful? Should it be? Why?
There's definitely some harsh noise that I would say is beautiful. A lot of work by Incapacitants & Mikawa seems to me to be positive and in some cases beautiful. It's harnessing pure energy and building it to impossible levels so it's both cathartic and frightening. Another name that comes to mind is Lasse Marhaug, not his whole body of work of course but parts of it.
Definitely. The bands/artists mentioned above are perfect examples of beauty in noise. I mean, I don't see anything negative or ugly in Incapacitants, it's just overwhelming joy. I guess not beautiful in the traditional aesthetic sense but for me, at least it serves exactly the same purpose as looking at a beautiful sunset or a masterful painting. Positive vibes all the way. Keränen is another example. Noise that is brimming with life and pleasure. Sure, sometimes it's drunken pleasure but there's beauty in that too, hah!
I would even go as far as to say that in its primal form noise IS beauty. People hang all these concepts of filth and degradation on it but to me pure noise is just a celebration of energy and life.
I would think band like AUBE.
I can't think what exactly is negative in textures of water or many other sources he uses. In artwork or the titles, it goes on the routes like "spindrift", "drip", "metal de metal" etc.. but sometimes perhaps something associated with negative: "hydrophobia", "frequency for collapse", etc...
Always somewhat elegant sharp lined design too.
Listening also to for example Archane Device. It is exactly noisE, is another debate, but his approach to feedback is not like XE or Sutcliffe Jugend. It's purely beautiful. Perhaps same could be said about bands like Small Cruel Party of Chop Shop. They may not be pure noise, and they may apply aesthetic of rust and decay, but in very beautiful way.
When I think of beauty in noise, I first come to thoughts of crystalline structures, like you'd find in some of Gelsomina's material. Glass, cacophonies of shattering glass (Einleitungszeit), and particular tones and timbre of shimmering glass. It's from a pedestrian definition, but that's all right.
I guess there are (at least) two main sources of beauty in noise. One is the nature of the particular tones and sounds that Mikko and Zeno refer to. And the other one is the structure and form of liberating and joyous (harsh) noise. The first one I appreciate more on the rational level, like I would admire and enjoy a delicate flower. The second is something that at its best just overwhelms me, beautiful ecstasy if you will.
I see beauty in engines, white marble walls, lakes and beasts fighting.
So listening to recordings of BMW engines is as intense and mesmerizing as the sound of water.
Spoken like a true Italian Futurist. Well said Marco, well fucking said!
Thinking of the quote "beauty exists only in struggle". To me PE and industrial is the sound of struggle be it individual or collective which is by itself beautiful.
It's much more rare to find those qualities in noise. There's too much chancery, "humour", "noise is fun" and general faggotry to take it seriously. It's unfocused and weak willed. A sound by and for the feeble and feeble can never be beautiful.
Noise can be about everything and nothing, that's one of the qualities I love about it, no restriction in topic, aproach, methods, etc.total freedom.
I don't even reject the humour stuff, it's still valid for me, why can't be fun and ridiculous?
ca be fun, can be ugly, can be serious (and also the seriousness of a topic depends on who listen, for some , a "serious" topic can be considered "just a joke")
what's serious for some, can be stupid for others, it's all relative.
I'm not particularly a fan of humour in any music, I think mostly due to the difference in what some musicians think is "funny" compared to what I find actually funny.
Digressing from the original point/post somewhat however. I can see beauty in a lot of noise, and in sound generally. One thing I have enjoyed most recently is standing in my garden with a cigarette after midnight, hearing sudden eruptions of rail noise from the nearby train station, the way it squeels, grates and clatters, carried in the breeze... the glimpse of something much bigger, presented very brief but enough to fill your mind with the rest of the picture. I find that quite beautiful.
I've definitely thought this from the early days of getting into noise. A lot of noise is beautiful, I guess I consider beauty to be comprised of at least some, if not many negative aspects. The idea of perfection is ugly to me, flaw, sadness, regret, and anger is beautiful.
Nebris made some beautiful noise. Had that organic feel to it. I could have used a few more chapters to Bleak Angels.
my cock makes beautiful noise.
I find this question very interesting and difficult.
The saying goes: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
In the EYE, not in the EAR.
I think there is a fundamental difference between viewing and hearing beauty.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krazydad/4136130/in/photostream/
A mosaic art work can be beautiful, but I'm not sure if it's the same case with noise. I would say that beauty in sound requires notes and chords of some sort and noise does not fill that requirement.
I can see the energy, vitality and pleasure in noise, but in my opinion it still isn't actual beauty.
Quote from: Antti O. on March 08, 2011, 02:09:04 AM
I find this question very interesting and difficult.
The saying goes: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
In the EYE, not in the EAR.
I think there is a fundamental difference between viewing and hearing beauty.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/krazydad/4136130/in/photostream/
A mosaic art work can be beautiful, but I'm not sure if it's the same case with noise. I would say that beauty in sound requires notes and chords of some sort and noise does not fill that requirement.
I can see the energy, vitality and pleasure in noise, but in my opinion it still isn't actual beauty.
If looking at the expression very literally, perhaps. I personally don't see the problem in applying it to aural sensation also.
Quote from: Antti O. on March 08, 2011, 02:09:04 AM
A mosaic art work can be beautiful, but I'm not sure if it's the same case with noise. I would say that beauty in sound requires notes and chords of some sort and noise does not fill that requirement.
It would lead us to question, what IS beauty?
define: beauty,
-the qualities that give pleasure to the senses
-Beauty is a characteristic of a person, animal, place, object, or idea that provides a perceptual experience of pleasure, meaning, or satisfaction. Beauty is studied as part of aesthetics, sociology, social psychology, and .........
I guess anyone would have heard something in lines of "that girl has beautiful voice". And we can't see it. We just hear, tone, pace, articulation, texture, flow, whatever are the characteristics of sound. And some good old pubiruusu might not have the most beautiful female voice out there. But someone else has.
And in noise, there are plenty. The saying, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, focus is not the eye, but beholder... as you probably well know.
But as they keep studying qualities what makes things beautiful, they often find some general lines what affects certain types of people.
But what makes this girls voice so beautiful? It's not dissonance or other characteristics in it that could be understood as noise. But something else, like some kind of "tenderness" or "purity" or other (feminine?) characteristics, maybe? Although, the same girl could be screaming her ass of with that beautiful voice hers and that would probably sound very beautiful and be noise. And yes, I undertand the focus is on beholder.
What is beauty is definetely the key question here, and also what is noise?
I think in first page there was several descriptions.
I don't think distortion of sound signal is something that's automatically "ugly". Sometimes it might be, but often noise can be.
You can see Great Ecstasy find the beauty from qualities that are nearly... lets say architechtural. Not into flowers and rainbows and random hippies gathering in piece, but monolithic straight lined sonic designs.
Myself reminding of something such as Aube. can re-read from first page.
Why they would NOT be beautiful and why they would not be noise? If we try to check out what is opposite of beauty, would be something what are ugly, fierce, unpleasant, difficult, repulsive,.. one may find he likes that, but I guess there's difference in screeching lo-fi noise rubbish of early SJ to elegance of Aube... for example.
Quote from: Antti O. on March 08, 2011, 05:33:08 PM
But what makes this girls voice so beautiful? It's not dissonance or other characteristics in it that could be understood as noise. But something else, like some kind of "tenderness" or "purity" or other (feminine?) characteristics, maybe? Although, the same girl could be screaming her ass of with that beautiful voice hers and that would probably sound very beautiful and be noise. And yes, I undertand the focus is on beholder.
What is beauty is definetely the key question here, and also what is noise?
Often time it IS the imperfect harmonics and dissonance that give something like a 300 year-old violin it's "character". Ever listen to a "pure" sine wave tone? It's pretty boring. Goes to what I stated earlier as to imperfection is a big part of beauty. Distortion is perhaps taking it a few levels further, but it's a variation on the same theme.
Some thoughts by Charles Baudelaire on the subject:
An artist is an artist only because of his exquisite sense of beauty, a sense which shows him intoxicating pleasures, but which at the same time implies and contains an equally exquisite sense of all deformities and all disproportion.
I can barely conceive of a type of beauty in which there is no Melancholy.
I love Wagner, but the music I prefer is that of a cat hung up by its tail outside a window and trying to stick to the panes of glass with its claws.
And the most relevant IMO:
That which is not slightly distorted lacks sensible appeal: from which it follows that irregularity - that is to say, the unexpected, surprise and astonishment, are an essential part and characteristic of beauty.
Quote from: TheGreatEcstasy on March 08, 2011, 08:28:58 PM
I can barely conceive of a type of beauty in which there is no Melancholy.
This was what I was partly thinking about, or something. And I have no problem with imperfect harmonies of 300 year old harp being big part of beauty.
I haven't really listened to Aube before, but I found this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCbeZjucwIg&feature=related
I can see beauty (and melancholy) in this piece, but I don't perceive it to be noise. It may go under noise file in music categorization though. Sorry if this song is a bad example btw. Any better suggestions? I was listening to Mikawa's cd mentioned in the first post trying to find beauty in it. I did't. maybe I should listen to it through and look the bigger picture aka architectural structures.
like somebody else said : noise = the true sound of love
everything about noise is beautiful , as to me it's just pure audio pleasure
I find it amusing that noise as beautiful stirs a discussion but noise as blood dripping, depressing or any other pet obsession doesn't. I have much easier time seeing the beauty in noise than I can see the blood dripping.
Quote from: Strömkarlen on March 09, 2011, 11:35:34 AM
I find it amusing that noise as beautiful stirs a discussion but noise as blood dripping, depressing or any other pet obsession doesn't. I have much easier time seeing the beauty in noise than I can see the blood dripping.
Agreed. The beauty of a full-on noise onslaught seems kinda obvious to me but the connection to giallos, nazis and nekkid ladies is sometimes lost on me. Nothing wrong with those, either, it's just that sometimes I feel that people are stretching it a bit...
When thinking about this beauty thing, I have to agree that of course there is beauty in noise. Like there is beauty in every other music style or any other thing that the beholder finds beautiful. It's a matter of fucking taste! Maybe I was trying to find some golden rule or definition of beauty for some kind. don't know and don't care anymore.
But still there is no beauty in sine wave and other crap noise.
naked ladies not beautiful?
I would say the concept of beauty has been target of study so long, that it's unlikely SI board would be the one put the final end to this. In my latest works, I have even titled recording "Beauty Of Aesthetic Imperfection". One could find links of the sonic approach to "Waba-sabi", yet it was much more accidental than planned reference.
Quote from: Strömkarlen on March 09, 2011, 11:35:34 AM
I find it amusing that noise as beautiful stirs a discussion but noise as blood dripping, depressing or any other pet obsession doesn't. I have much easier time seeing the beauty in noise than I can see the blood dripping.
I think it's almost opposite? You throw some topics with politics and sexual extremes, and we see topics about that constantly in noise boards. If we'd open topic "noise and nazism", I don't even want to know what would happen! HAH! "noise and molesting people"? I guess one can find topic of various shades of stupidity all over the place. About noise and beauty, 2 pages not enough to compete yet.
Quote from: Antti O. on March 09, 2011, 04:35:35 PM
When thinking about this beauty thing, I have to agree that of course there is beauty in noise. Like there is beauty in every other music style or any other thing that the beholder finds beautiful. It's a matter of fucking taste! Maybe I was trying to find some golden rule or definition of beauty for some kind. don't know and don't care anymore.
But still there is no beauty in sine wave and other crap noise.
Like in anything, beauty is matter of subjective tastes, BUT, there are still some general lines. You can see certain western beauty standards, what operate on rules of geometry for example. Symmetric forms and accurate proportions. Even grain textures of cement, plaster or such in structures. Hairs and whatever.. they may appeal rough & cheap or filthy or ugly, yet in their correct place, they attribute beauty or elegance of some sort of bigger concept.
In noise, you may consider few moments of random noise patterns as noisy, chaotic, disorganized, but in bigger image it may finds it place in logical sound sculpture with perfect proportions and forms. Accidentally, or planned.
Those who find the beauty in imperfection and who want to address the beauty in single moment that quickly passes by, it gets probably harder to "others" to experience the same.
I think even something as simple as usage of delay effect, could be subject to study it's beauty. Imperfection of actual tape-loop delay compared to digital delay with follows exact rotation. How speed of delay is vital. When you hear, as listener, that this is fucked up. It's either too loud, wrong length compared to other sounds. Or when it is perfect, just beautifully blends in, and seems like golden spiral! If someone doesn't know what is the golden spiral, maybe one known golden ration in general? If our perception on this matter is coded deep into human DNA, I would call it good enough "universal" beauty, heh... Even if noise of course appears often without form and without structure, it wouldn't change possibility to see that some noise is bigger than the random grainy moment you hear.
Quote from: heretogo on March 09, 2011, 11:53:33 AM
Quote from: Strömkarlen on March 09, 2011, 11:35:34 AM
I find it amusing that noise as beautiful stirs a discussion but noise as blood dripping, depressing or any other pet obsession doesn't. I have much easier time seeing the beauty in noise than I can see the blood dripping.
Agreed. The beauty of a full-on noise onslaught seems kinda obvious to me but the connection to giallos, nazis and nekkid ladies is sometimes lost on me. Nothing wrong with those, either, it's just that sometimes I feel that people are stretching it a bit...
"nekkid ladies" also falls under the beautiful flag as far as I'm concerned, so I do tend to see a connection.
But I do also see a connection to violence, atrocity, and instinct because it is some of those instances where the true beauty and ugliness of the human condition is at it's pinnacle.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 09, 2011, 04:42:27 PM
naked ladies not beautiful?
Hah! Yes they are. But in noise album covers they are often subjected to fist-fucking and whatnot which is not my idea of beautiful... heh.
Anyway, the point was that noise in itself has inherent beauty to me and all these superfluous connections to violence and depravity seem sort of unnecessary most of the time. Violence and aggression can be delivered via the sound if needed, I don't really need the extra explicit imagery & connotations. But that's just me & my taste. On the other hand, they rarely (it can happen...) distract me enough to put me off the sounds themselves either.
QuoteBut in noise album covers they are often subjected to fist-fucking
personally , i'd like to see more fist fucking on noise records covers .
thanks !
Every person who releases something has their own idea of beauty in mind. Even if they are trying to pull a fast one on their listeners, they still think, deep inside, that there is a beauty in it. Marcel Duchamp signed a urinal and thought there was a beauty in it, even if it was in the fact that he got away with it. I'm sure that jliat thought his book of a "wav form" with nothing but 000010000010100101010010 was beauty. Even people who are against romantics are trying to do what they think is beautiful.
Many people will argue that there is a "golden mean" to beauty. Many more people try to disregard the idea of the "eye of the beholder".
For me it is when someone creates a world that I want to visit, or it is so fully realized that I feel like I'm already there, or when someone changes my perception, or when it speaks to my soul.
I think that this can happen with lazy, stupid, crude, brutish, overly analytical, sexually depraved, crazy, insensitive and deplorable people just as much if not more than the synthesizer sunrise assholes.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 09, 2011, 04:42:27 PM
Quote from: Strömkarlen on March 09, 2011, 11:35:34 AM
I find it amusing that noise as beautiful stirs a discussion but noise as blood dripping, depressing or any other pet obsession doesn't. I have much easier time seeing the beauty in noise than I can see the blood dripping.
I think it's almost opposite? You throw some topics with politics and sexual extremes, and we see topics about that constantly in noise boards. If we'd open topic "noise and nazism", I don't even want to know what would happen! HAH! "noise and molesting people"? I guess one can find topic of various shades of stupidity all over the place. About noise and beauty, 2 pages not enough to compete yet.
Isn't the nazism and molesting that get's the action not noise?
Isn't it the same? Beauty, being on side connected to noise. And beauty is what gets attention?
I would guess it's the same like this. Mix of discussing what is what, and why it's connected/related to noise?
Noise and commercialism?
Noise and social networking?
noise and ...
we could invent any topic, and the latter word defines the nature of discussion, not perhaps the purely the "noise".
I think Antti O did refer something to question what exactly IS noise. And if it being pleasure to your senses, ceases to be noise. I recall Soddy mentioning his noise vision of being the quality to DAMAGE.
"Beauty is like a train that ceaselessly roars out of the Gare de Lyon and which I know will never leave, which has not left. It consists of jolts and shocks, many of which do not have much importance, but which we know are destined to produce one Shock, which does...The human heart, beautiful as a seismograph...Beauty will be CONVULSIVE or will not be at all."
— André Breton
also
"Let us not mince words: the marvelous is always beautiful, anything marvelous is beautiful, in fact only the marvelous is beautiful."
(I always remembered that one as "the unusual" but "the marvelous" seems to be the most common translation...)