Curious as to how others like to listen to their PE/Noise. Ideal situation of where, when, state of mind etc. Do you feel the equipment you listen to the music to be of any impotance, do you prefer lo-fi or more audiophile equipment. I personally prefer to listen at home through audiophile headphones, any time of day with a sober mind. I find I can hear so much more subtle detail and be closed in to the noise when listening through a good set of headphones.
Usually at night, sober. Sometimes headphones, but mostly through my floor speakers. I like to feel the sound surround me and fill the room. Typically as background sound for whatever I happen to be doing (dishes, working out, browsing web, etc...) As far as mood, I guess I'm open to noise/p.e. any time, except maybe when I'm in a really good mood.
If I'm going to listen attentively and want to fully immerse myself in the sound, then headphones are the only way to go.
Really depends on the material. Not everything stands close scrutiny, and for mine, I'd rather listen to that which does. Mood is also a factor - not much point getting into Atrax Morgue when one is in a mood for CCCC, for example. Equipment factors are a long argument; for mine, I'm content with the simple but effective stereo system I have. I read an interview with Lustmord once, where he stated that most average stereo gear isn't qualified to bring out everything he says is in his music. I'd suggest there's not many other cases like that, though.
I use to apply the "background noise" test - put something on and do something else, and if I was drawn towards it, I thought it was good. These days, I see the flaws in that. Some material can only work itself on you if you give it attention, other material can seem okay on first listen but not really reward repeat listens. Longevity is something important to me - regardless of how infrequently I'll be in the mood for Noise/PE these days, I know that moods vary over time and that I want albums in my collection that I can return to, even after years. It's not always easy to know what's going to stand up to that test, but one can do one's best. It's got to be the best albums by the best artists, and for me right now that list gets shorter and shorter.
Definitely some interesting points of view, I have not got a lot of listening experience under my belt yet compared to many others on this board. I have already found too, that if I am not listening at home, i like to listen either on my long walk to work through the city of melbourne at around 5 30am. The City is still very dark but being surrounded by an urban environment creates a new perspective, as did the other day when I was driving through the countryside listening to Sutcliffe Jugend which added an interesting juxtaposition with the audio. I also find a decent set of closed headphones allows me to experience a lot of the lower frequencies that cheap earbuds cannot replicate.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 12, 2011, 08:13:52 AMI read an interview with Lustmord once, where he stated that most average stereo gear isn't qualified to bring out everything he says is in his music. I'd suggest there's not many other cases like that, though.
That's a silly statement on your part, and I don't say that to attack you. I can't follow your logic is all. I could list countless bands, projects, and albums that experience escalating returns the better the playback system is. The ambient genre is packed with them, just as one broad-stroke example. Electro-acoustics as another. I won't even bother to keep going. There's no sense talking about it. If you heard it for yourself, there would be no discussion.
And hearing noise/PE cranked through a PA at 130db isn't nearly the same experience (and visa versa) as say, hearing Genocide Organ's Mind Control, or Francois Bayle's Son Vitesse-Lumière, or Koner's Permafrost, or Voice of Eye's Transmigration, or Null/Plotkin's Aurora, or MZ.412's "Salvo Honoris Morte", through even an entry-level audiophile stereo system.
Ever hear, or read, someone say in response to a Black Sabbath virgin, "Man, you're so lucky. I wish I was just hearing Black Sabbath for the first time right now."? If they haven't heard an original mastering on a great system, then they too can experience Black Sabbath like it was their first time. That's the kind of difference the playback system can make. I'm sure you realize this, so I'm not sure why you'd underestimate, or maybe undermine, the value of the playback system.
I got my first "proper" own stereos as teenager and it made all the difference to move from 2-tape deck plastic boombox into cheap "all-in-one" stereo package. I hold that gear for way too long. Even when all the other gear had changed into better set up, I actually had the same speakers. When I was living in apartment, it was so cluttered with crap, I though I should buy SMALLER speakers, but what sound equally good. I took my speakers and Merzbow CD with me to audio equipment shop and said I want smaller, but as good sound. And what a shame it was, when the cheapest pieces of shit they had available, were like twice better than ones I had carried. I could have improved the set with investment of like.. 50,- ? I ended up upgrading higher. And then I though, this is as good as I need. And that was conclusion only until I had room for more and I actually got to hear what it means.
Gradient speakers, mid 80's Finnish hand made high-end, I bought 2nd hand. And this is the type of stuff where you don't need to think about subwoofers or such, since they go from very high till very deep bass.
(http://www.gradient.fi/Gradient/History_files/29.jpg)
Gradient is known around the world and won many awards.
Anyway, with this kind of speaker, you really go much further from just having "whatever" supermarket mini-hifi stacked somewhere in corner of room. Of course some would say it is up to taste, what level playback you require, but starting from standard rock'n'roll going deep into classical music or as Zeno referred: electro-acoustics etc, you can really fully experience the composition when you actually hear it. Especially in the electro-acoustic, you might miss the whole range of sound operating in deepest levels, when the speakers can't reproduce the sound of album.
I think this has been topic before, here or noisefanatics, but now it has really been golden times to buy stereo equipment. Just about every auction site in UK, USA, Germany, etc. is packed with cheap old hi-fi. "Normal people" move into ipod era, and the bigger & better stuff goes for fraction of its original price. Also the real nutty hi-fi enthusiasts are good source. I'm 100% sure every country has the hi-fi magazine forums with 2nd hand section, and some folks seem to have so much money they give test run to all type of gear all the time, and sell it for half price when they get idea to test something else. Tube amps, turntables, tape decks, CD players,.. just to be grabbed at decent prices when someone is possessed by endless upgrading.
When I got the Gradient speakers, that basically meant that just about everything should have been re-listened. And of course is being done so. Suddenly one is able to spot the difference which album sounded flat because it was - and which sounded flat only because lacking playback. Even something like old Ramleh recordings, if you exclude the Pure CD versions, the bassy brutality of some of the recordings isn't coming through on all types of speakers.
In my own recordings, for example "Valkoista Voimaa" of Grunt Petturien Rooli album, I haven't heard it sound "right" almost anywhere. The distant beat operates on such a low bass frequencies, many speakers fail to make it audible, removing one key element of whole track away. "Professionals" of course could say one has to master the release to sound good in all stereos, but that seems silly. Why compromise on piece of art(?) so instead of sounding good at good equipment, it will sound half assed with everybody's equipment? This also leads to modern noise releases, which are often compressed and overtly distorted into such degree, they may sound "loud" at shitty stereos, but severely lacking when played with proper hi-fi with the needed amplification power that you could turn it loud if you want it loud.
as for everything else : sitting on my ass with something to drink
stereo equipment is of course important, i think especially with noise and experimental music
Most of my equipment is inherited from older generations, bought in the 70's/early 80s (speakers, record player...). Two pairs of spekaers, they complement each other pretty well; since they're 35-40 years old all cripsness/whatever clarity is gone, but they are muddled in different frequencies so together they give quite a decent sound if you crank it up enough.
Prefer listening in speakers rather than headphones - it becomes too cramped, don't enjoy the physical sensation of something covering my ears. Of course, you hear all sounds much clearer, but the slight claustrophobia of my head being on a leash from the amp isn't worth it if I have the possibility of filling the room with sound rather than just my ears. It's just more comfortable so be able to move around while listening. Also, filling the room with sounds is actually more immersive than listening with headphones to me. Headphones=bondage, speakers=master freedom, hah!
But it all depends on why I'm listening to something, and what I'm listening to. Now for example, some Prurient blasting while checking my mail, eating breakfast. Not really an attentive listening session with the sounds in focus. I do that all too rarely and randomly. There just isn't time to sit down and enjoy an album or two every now and then.
One reason I opened this topic is because i am going to build up a hi fi system, ground up to upgrade from my shitty plastic all in one sony hi fi system. I had a listen to a Screwtape cassete on both this system and my parents 30+ year old Technics cassette deck and intergrated amp and the sound improv was nuts, so much punchier and heavy on the Technics. I am thinking of going with Arcam for the amp and cd player, with hopefully an old nak cassette deck and a rega turntable. I want to hear those low frequencies that Mikko was talking about because I think some works may lose their intengrity.
Quote from: SafeWord on May 12, 2011, 12:50:43 PM
with hopefully an old nak cassette deck
Beware the old cassette decks. In the past year I've purchased both a Nakamichi and a NAD cassette deck off of ebay and both of them have shit the bed. Apparently those old high-end cassette decks are very prone to breaking, especially the Naks. Rather than take it to a repair man who will probably charge me more than what I paid for the unit, I just went to Best Buy and bought a Sony Walkman, which I was shocked they actually had in stock. Obviously it's not ideal and I'm losing some sound quality, but hey, it works!
I too am in the process of upgrading my stereo system. Just recently bought a restored Dual 1219 turntable from www.fixmydual.com. The guy has the reputation of being a Dual turntable guru and was very helpful. It cost a little over $500 with a cartridge upgrade. So far I like it a lot, sounds a lot more "wide" and full than my shitty JVC plastic turntable. This Dual table weighs like 25 pounds and is built like a fucking tank!
Looking to minimize my system. Going to get rid of my big receiver and go with just a phono preamp that has a few aux inputs. Also eliminating my 5 CD changer, totally unncessary because my computer is also a part of the system.
NAK decks are notorious for being constant maintenance nuisances. The entire US market has a single authorized repair shop. Your deck could spend 6 months out of each year waiting to get corrected and returned to you. I'd have a backup deck of some sort. I'm a big advocate of the older NAD amps and pre-amps, but I never cared for their cassette decks. They seemed to have problems with speed flux and motor reliability. I used to see them used a lot.
I think I stated this back on the Tronics thread related to this that my favorite piece of my set-up is my receiver. It's a middle of the road model Luxman (20-25 years old) but it can get a lot of power and great volume levels with my speakers. And it sounds excellent if you're just running head phones into it. To be honest if it ever dies I'll probably just replace it with the same model. :p
Used is the way to go these days. Lots of people still switching over to 5.1 and 7.1 for "home theaters" and getting rid of their stereo set-ups. Gearheads buying and switching out gear a couple times a year, so lots of like-new equipment floating around in the city markets; a good percentage being doctors and lawyers in this group. I hesitate to buy CD players or cassette decks used, but if you find that "gear over listening" person, they've hardly been played at all. They're the reverse absurdity of the music lover who has $10K sunk into their music collection with a $400 stereo set-up. The gear junkies have $10K into their system and only have a couple dozen CDs in their library. I've seen it plenty of times. Gone over to someone's house to possibly buy equipment, and they don't own any music. "Where's your music collection?", and they slide open a door on a hutch or pull out a drawer with possibly 50 or less CDs and "1/2 speed mastered" LPs. Big toys for bigger incomes. They don't even have the time to listen to music; working 80-hour work weeks as they slave to the corporate grind. People like me benefit. It's all good.
(http://i55.tinypic.com/2iu8vm.jpg)
Woow!
I really dislike the sound of most horned speakers. No imaging or depth to them. Blocks of sound. Nice looking and vintage or retro appearances, but I don't buy equipment for its prettiness.
I have been meaning to invest in a new cassette deck, if Nakamichi & NAD decks have been problematic for people on here then what brands/models are recommended?
Like most other people have stated it just depends on who it is and what mood I am in. But generally speaking I like most Noise and PE through headphones, laying on the ground next to my tape deck while looking through the album art. Although some material sounds a lot better without headphones and turned up really loud, good example of this would be Xenophobic Ejaculation and Snuff, Prurient's Arrowhead album and certain Whitehouse material like Buchenwald, pretty much anything with harsh, isolated feedback, very stripped down sounds and high in the mix vocals is best suited to be heard in a room instead of just through headphones, in my opinion. Also groups like Disgust and that new Male Compliments cassette with their thunderous Bass and bulldozing crunch. Nicole 12 sounds great on speakers instead of through headphones as well.
Material by artists like Mania, Wince, Coma Detox, Sick Seed, Pleasure Fluids, most Mauthausen Orchestra and Bizarre Uproar are best suited for headphones.
And Black Metal is far the car rides.
Quote from: RyanWreck on May 13, 2011, 05:23:47 AM
Like most other people have stated it just depends on who it is and what mood I am in. But generally speaking I like most Noise and PE through headphones, laying on the ground next to my tape deck while looking through the album art. Although some material sounds a lot better without headphones and turned up really loud, good example of this would be Xenophobic Ejaculation and Snuff, Prurient's Arrowhead album and certain Whitehouse material like Buchenwald,
That is a valid point about certain artists or albums work better through headphones rather than speakers. I also like to look through album art whilst listening through headphones, or lie down with my eyes closed in a darkened room and just take in the noise.
Quote from: chibitachop on May 13, 2011, 04:54:13 AM
I have been meaning to invest in a new cassette deck, if Nakamichi & NAD decks have been problematic for people on here then what brands/models are recommended?
I have Nakamichi deck, which is ok, but need to be fixed. It has small distortion what appears to be most of all related to outputs.. I have NAD decks, which have served well. There has been occasional issues of motor jamming, but it has been easy to solve by opening the case, rotating the big wheel few times with your hand backwards or slight adjustment of the rubber band mechanism. Doesn't require any knowledge of anything. Just observation of simple mechanism of the deck. I have also Tascam and Technics decks. And I have run tests for them. Have had same master tape, which I have played with the deck, and captured WAV from output and really, all of them sound very much identical.
If the tape deck works, and if it is by company who still has spare parts, then should be good choice. Unfortunately, it seems like Technics parts are no longer available over here. I have extra dubbing decks that would need to be fixed, and heads can't be found anymore. I think Panasonic is handling Technics?
Everything will eventually break, especially when used extensively. I'd wouldn't recommend to invest thousands into some superior vintage deck if you can't get it fixed anymore. Then better to settle for those you can throw out when they break. For me, NAD, Technics and Tascam has been good.
Some of the best sounding decks I've heard from the low- to mid-end pack of manufacturers have been Denons. Insofar as recording, they made their best dubs with Denon and Maxell blanks. (I consider NAD a mid-end company).
Thanks for the Cassette Deck advice, I was possibly going to buy a new Pioneer or Yamaha Deck but looks like a second hand deck is the way to go. I am definetely looking for a deck that produces good sound output so NAD might be the way to go.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 13, 2011, 08:34:22 AM
I have NAD decks, which have served well. There has been occasional issues of motor jamming, but it has been easy to solve by opening the case, rotating the big wheel few times with your hand backwards or slight adjustment of the rubber band mechanism. Doesn't require any knowledge of anything. Just observation of simple mechanism of the deck.
Ok, so after reading this I cracked open my non-functioning NAD 6340, found the big wheel with the belt around it, spun it like 1/4 turn with my finger, and now the damn thing works! Fuckin' A, thanks for the info!
Passive or powered speakers? I haven't done research into this yet so might as well ask if anyone here more knowledgeable than I has an opinion on this. Right now I have a pair of old Pioneer CS-G403 passive floor speakers, but considering some smaller powered bookshelf speakers that might give me comparable sound (or better?)
Back to state of mind when listening...I can't listen to p.e./noise when I'm drunk. The throbbing and prolonged dissonant tones really mess with my head and make me nauseous. Probably just a case of being too drunk, but even when I'm just a little buzzed I prefer listening to rock or metal over noise.
Quote from: RyanWreck on May 13, 2011, 05:23:47 AM
Material by artists like Mania, Wince, Coma Detox, Sick Seed, Pleasure Fluids, most Mauthausen Orchestra and Bizarre Uproar are best suited for headphones.
Listening to Bizarre Uproar Mother Re-Issue CD right now, compared quality through closed Ultrasone Headphones to Speakers. You are certainly correct with the sound being better through Headphones. Able to hear that powerful rumble, but pick up on so many other layers of sounds that just dissapeared into a more flat rumble through the speakers, although my speakers are real cheap hard to compare them against mid end headphones.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on May 12, 2011, 10:24:50 AM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 12, 2011, 08:13:52 AMI read an interview with Lustmord once, where he stated that most average stereo gear isn't qualified to bring out everything he says is in his music. I'd suggest there's not many other cases like that, though.
That's a silly statement on your part, and I don't say that to attack you. I can't follow your logic is all. I could list countless bands, projects, and albums that experience escalating returns the better the playback system is. The ambient genre is packed with them, just as one broad-stroke example. Electro-acoustics as another. I won't even bother to keep going. There's no sense talking about it. If you heard it for yourself, there would be no discussion.
What I meant was, according to Lustmord, there's a lot of his material especially made for playback on only the highest fidelity systems; something to do with certain frequencies that can't be reproduced on most other systems. You're quite right, of course, just about any good recording benefits from a good system and I wasn't meaning to compare with the examples you meant, more the more plentiful "Noise/PE" kind of recordings. It was something I read in an interview in passing, though.
Was listening to Alfarmania- Nojjan cassette today on my sony mini hi fi system, originally through speakers but plugged decent set of headphones in and so much more detail and dynamic, sounds i could not even hear through the speakers. I must buy a decent system, thinking arcam with monitor audio speakers and play at high volume
Another thing I wanted to mention about how my listening has changed since listening to Noise. I have found that I am finding much more interest and focusing in on everyday sounds that happen in my environment. I live in the city, so I am appreciating all the noises whether subtle or intense. Listening to noise and power electronics has certainly changed the way i listen and to let go and take in what is around me.
Quote from: SafeWord on May 25, 2011, 06:20:28 AM
Another thing I wanted to mention about how my listening has changed since listening to Noise. I have found that I am finding much more interest and focusing in on everyday sounds that happen in my environment. I live in the city, so I am appreciating all the noises whether subtle or intense. Listening to noise and power electronics has certainly changed the way i listen and to let go and take in what is around me.
Here is something I recognize. Got the same, except that I don't appreciate all sounds, hehe.
But I more often notice the reverb in big stairways for example. Or find myself thinking: damn, this is a sound that would have been useful. Like a couple of days ago, when a colleague of mine banged a big double-wanded oil-barrel to hear whether it was full or not, it gave a great sound, would have been very useful for a noise or pe project...
I'm gun shy about Rotel. I have their top of the line pre-amp from years ago, and I've never cared for it. The phono stage is particularly poor. I know I've said that elsewhere. I'd give their gear another listen, but so far, I'm couldn't say they're worth the money. Still, KMusselman, that's a nice system you have.
Looking to buy a nice DAC; one that is upgradeable, so it would have to be modular in design.
I'm lucky enough that my girlfriend's brother works as a high-end audio equipment dealer and he gave me a list of recommended entry level (since that's what I could afford) high-end brands and models to build a hifi. Since he lives in a different country, I couldn't listen to any of them, but what I ended up buying sounds great to me:
- CD player: NAD C546BEE
- Turntable: Clearaudio Concept
- Tape deck: NAD 6325 (bought this used on Ebay)
- Integrated amp: NAD C 326BEE
- Phono preamp: NAD PP3
- Speakers (bookshelf): Focal Chorus 705V
- Speaker cables & interconnects: QED and Audioquest
- Headphones: Grado SR125i
Like others in this thread, I can only recommend investing in a high-end hifi. Mine cost me a couple thousand dollars (although I got the turntable as a present so that's not included) which might be a lot but there's a massive improvement from my previous $250 mass market all-in-one hifi--and my new hifi is only entry level high-end (except for the turntable which I could not have afforded; if I had to buy one, I would've bought a Rega or Pro-Ject entry level model). Often I hear details in whatever I listen to that I didn't hear before and there's always a new kind of physicality to the music instead of the flatness of my old hifi--sometimes it's as if the music wants to jump out of the speakers. I can't even imagine what a truly high-end hifi would sound like...
Now I'm thinking of upgrading to floorstanding speakers but I'll have to read some more about it as my room's arrangement is crap and unless I can place them properly, it might not be worth spending on them.
Quote from: acsenger on May 22, 2013, 06:21:25 AM
I can't even imagine what a truly high-end hifi would sound like...
I had a conversation a few years ago with McKaras (autarkeia, cold industrial techno). He was telling me about and exhibition of most expensive and sky-high-fi setups that was held in Vilnius. And the most interesting thing is that he went there to try some industrial/noise records on those machines and ran into huge disappointment. He told me that when he tried BDN CD on those systems he couldn't even identify that it is Karmanik's material - the machine was cleaning the sound via bulb amps (and so on) so heavily that it influenced the sound itself. I don't know how legitimate this is, but after that conversation I am hoping to try this kind of thing myself.
Quote from: acsenger on May 22, 2013, 06:21:25 AMOften I hear details in whatever I listen to that I didn't hear before and there's always a new kind of physicality to the music instead of the flatness of my old hifi--sometimes it's as if the music wants to jump out of the speakers.
imaging and separation can become fetishes of their own. When it is exceptional, it's sexual. Owsley "Bear" Stanley was likely the first person to describe, and maybe rather the first to
see, sound as physical. The way he cognitively processed and philosophized sound changed everything in the audio world.
Quote from: linxtyx on May 22, 2013, 09:46:26 AM
Quote from: acsenger on May 22, 2013, 06:21:25 AM
I can't even imagine what a truly high-end hifi would sound like...
I had a conversation a few years ago with McKaras (autarkeia, cold industrial techno). He was telling me about and exhibition of most expensive and sky-high-fi setups that was held in Vilnius. And the most interesting thing is that he went there to try some industrial/noise records on those machines and ran into huge disappointment. He told me that when he tried BDN CD on those systems he couldn't even identify that it is Karmanik's material - the machine was cleaning the sound via bulb amps (and so on) so heavily that it influenced the sound itself. I don't know how legitimate this is, but after that conversation I am hoping to try this kind of thing myself.
I don't buy it. There's more to this than he was either saying or understanding. I'd definitely recommend experiencing a nice system for yourself. It's one thing to hear a $100K system and not be so impressed that it leaves you speechless, thus feeling disappointment; but it's quite another to say that same system is an overall disappointment. It's not really a money thing, either. You could put together a simple, very nice system for hundreds of dollars. It's knowing what you like and then where to look for it. It
is a huge learning curve, though. A race car drive can appreciate a car's handling a lot more than the average person. It's a tool, and they know how to understand its capacities.
I think this could happen with any better system compared to low level consumer set. When I had standard good speakers, changing to hi-end speakers resulted that there is significant clarity in all levels of frequencies. That there is deep low end and very high crispy highs. Some records that used to be "forceful" when blasting through more narrow scale speakers, suddenly resulted that sound was less forceful, but clearer and more distinctive. This also meant that for example listening CD's like Darkthrone "Under Funeral Moon" became very bizarre. While small bad speakers would "compress" it sound pretty usual, with true hi-fi speakers, sound is really beyond....
But disappointment? Certainly not. If album can only handle to be played by crappy speakers to sound good, then problem is probably the album itself, rather than sound system.
I know from reading on the subject (sadly, not from personal experience) that it's not necessarily true that the more expensive a hifi, the better. There are many factors that influence how much you like a hifi: the room it's in (shape, acoustics, placing of speakers), the synergy between hifi components (if one chain in the link is of lower quality than the rest, the overall sound won't be optimal), what kind of music it's best suited for, and, very importantly: the ears of the listener. What sounds fantastic to one person may sound like crap to another.
I don't know what happened at that high-end show with the BDN CD, but perhaps none of the above was right? Even at high-end exhibitions conditions can be subpar, down to the most elemental conditions (like speaker placement etc.).
Quotefor example listening CD's like Darkthrone "Under Funeral Moon" became very bizarre
That's interesting--I have the opposite experience. Just the other week I was listening to their
Ravishing Grimness CD and I wasn't very surprised that the sound was not much different than on my previous, $250 hifi--no doubt because Darkthrone, not surprisingly, aimed for a "necro" sound. Indeed, how an album is recorded will determine how it will sound on any hifi. If it sounds like crap on the master recording, nothing will make it better. (Not saying Darkthrone sound like crap cause I like their sound.)
Listening to Xenakis now (
GRM Works 1957-1962 LP) and holy crap, it sounds fantastic. Electroacoustic music must be one of the genres that benefits most from a good hifi.
Listened to an old Dark Funeral album (Vobiscum Satanas?) on a friend's system that he paid about 1½ month salary for. Sounded completely awful. Abyss Studios should be blamed for that though. Rotten Sound LP however, much better.
8 out of 10 times I probably listen to PE/Noise through headphones. In my opinion it's the best listening experience for this type of music. Noise in general is often an intimate listening experience to begin with, so makes sense to listen this way.
Laptop>foobar>headphones.
Sold all my hi-fi equipment and physical media after ripping a few years ago and went digital.
Suits me fine.