Special Interest

What are some of the worst Noise/PE releases by your favorite artists?

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The new Cherry Point disc all but turned me off to that strain of harsh noise for the foreseeable future.  I am hesitant to even revisit the older classics from the project currently.

I'm heavily into masonna stuff, but i can't deal with controlled death.
Just not my kind of stuff.

Prurient's "Through the Windows". Can't help but hate the techno-oriented approach of some of his releases, nor the darkwave-inspired synths of "Cocaine Death". Dominick's musical volatility usually delivers more than good material, but that one is a "side" of his music which I just dislike. But let me tell you something, this seems like a very hard question for me.

Quote from: Kaaoskultti on January 08, 2025, 01:13:20 AMBut let me tell you something, this seems like a very hard question for me.

It is pretty tough, given noise's tendency to be laissez faire approach to output. 

The XE side of the split with Reek of the Unzen Gas Fumes is awful.

Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on January 08, 2025, 07:06:58 PMThe XE side of the split with Reek of the Unzen Gas Fumes is awful.

I really like this material, but I'm not a fan of XE side of the split with Atesh (and XE is one of my favorite PE projects).
20 minutes of the same static feedback is too much for me...

Quote from: Kaaoskultti on January 08, 2025, 01:13:20 AMPrurient's "Through the Windows". Can't help but hate the techno-oriented approach of some of his releases, nor the darkwave-inspired synths of "Cocaine Death".

As someone who was into the industrial club scene for many years, I really enjoy Through the Window. I feel like with only a few years of experience of making beat-oriented music, with "You Show Great Spirit," Dom made a better industrial dance track in one take than veterans of that scene did in decades-long careers. I wish sometimes he'd take some more spins at that kind of sound, but maybe he feels he can't outdo it and would rather leave it at that.

But I can totally see how it turns off fans of his earlier material. Not that I'm usually a "project purist," but I've always felt Through the Window would have been better off released under a different one off name (it doesn't really fit the Vatican Shadow sound either). Cocaine Death, FNF, Bermuda Drain...I think even with those there's enough noise elements that they still "fit" as Prurient releases. But TTW seems like a different kind of entity to me.

QuoteBut let me tell you something, this seems like a very hard question for me.

Its a weird topic. I think most people when they don't like something, myself included, tend not to dwell on it very long and forget about it. There's enough negativity in the world to deal with. Why am I going to obsess extensively on something I didn't like?

And for my favorite artists, I can't say they usually put out anything I truly HATE, maybe more of an emotion of mild disappointment than anything. I guess Con-Dom-Subjection would fit the bill. It was interesting to hear Mike do a take on harsh noise instead of his usual approach, but once the novelty of that wore off, I found it just couldn't sustain my interest. I've always felt it would've worked better as a C30 than a C60. Its not that the sounds are bad, per se, it just overstays its welcome. Less would've been more.

I guess its an interesting topic in that I've already seen a couple things mentioned that I personally love. Different strokes....

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Its a weird topic. I think most people when they don't like something, myself included, tend not to dwell on it very long and forget about it. There's enough negativity in the world to deal with. Why am I going to obsess extensively on something I didn't like?

I guess I'm interested in disappointment as a music experience and creative decisions that can alienate audiences of experimental/extreme music.

Quote from: Olion on January 08, 2025, 07:14:54 PM

Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on January 08, 2025, 07:06:58 PMThe XE side of the split with Reek of the Unzen Gas Fumes is awful.

I really like this material, but I'm not a fan of XE side of the split with Atesh (and XE is one of my favorite PE projects).
20 minutes of the same static feedback is too much for me...

I have tried several times, but I just cannot like it no matter how hard I try!

I'm all for criticism, and I think not enough criticism in noise/experimental exist but I think the question should be "why aren't people being more critical in the recent listening section".

I think by starting a thread like this that it doesn't really accomplish creating a dialogue, it just adds to the reductive quality of internet culture.

A similar question I think it worth interrogating in music/noise/art in general is "does the success of a release stifle future releases". Without having heard anything mentioned above and not being able to comment specifically on any of it, it's been a long running theme of noise/PE listeners being extremely resistant to change/progess.

I also think one reason this might be a "hard question" as mentioned above is that listeners of "difficult" music are repeat listeners (I do wonder if this is changing now due to the over accessibility to new and different releases) so I imagine many more listeners of noise would relate to the experience of hearing something, not liking/understanding and being compelled to return. I think the bulk of people into difficult/abstract music will know this experience well and I think it's why they continued to listen and engage. This more than anything may account for the lack of criticism.

Quote from: Johann on January 09, 2025, 05:18:39 PMI'm all for criticism, and I think not enough criticism in noise/experimental exist but I think the question should be "why aren't people being more critical in the recent listening section".

I think by starting a thread like this that it doesn't really accomplish creating a dialogue, it just adds to the reductive quality of internet culture.

A similar question I think it worth interrogating in music/noise/art in general is "does the success of a release stifle future releases". Without having heard anything mentioned above and not being able to comment specifically on any of it, it's been a long running theme of noise/PE listeners being extremely resistant to change/progess.

I also think one reason this might be a "hard question" as mentioned above is that listeners of "difficult" music are repeat listeners (I do wonder if this is changing now due to the over accessibility to new and different releases) so I imagine many more listeners of noise would relate to the experience of hearing something, not liking/understanding and being compelled to return. I think the bulk of people into difficult/abstract music will know this experience well and I think it's why they continued to listen and engage. This more than anything may account for the lack of criticism.

I think you kind of answered your own question there. Saying something is great and saying why is easier than trying to describe some album that you keep returning to even though it's somehow plain bad and unappealing, but somehow it still keeps pulling you back and you don't know why. Like you'd feel you have to "solve" the album. Or even if describing that wasn't more difficult, it just likely happens over a longer period of time so you don't have that immediate "vibe" you could comment on the spot. I wish I had some good example of an album like this in mind but I don't. Closest one I can think of is K.M. Toepfer's Retrace No Steps CD (White Centipede Noise, 2021) which has a heavy emphasis on some of my least favorite elements of noise (quite a sterile sound and shrill yet clean/flat feedback-like frequencies), yet it's somehow really good. It's an album I got as a trade bonus, which is good as if I had checked bits of it online I quite likely would've just labeled it as not to my taste and wouldn't have given it a chance. Now that I got the disc, it felt natural to play the whole thing despite having no prior idea what it'd be like.

And not to get all hippie here, but while I agree with your notion that "a thread like this that it doesn't really accomplish creating a dialogue, it just adds to the reductive quality of internet culture", we can make dialogue happen if we get together and try, haha!

About being resistant to change/progress, I'm not sure I 100% agree. I mean, there are a lot of types of noise/PE and the crowd the stuff gathers is quite diverse, and both keep changing. Even if some larger group would say "this line-in sound is killing true PE" or "analog xerox collages are wannabe wank" or whatever, it likely won't matter to those who see it as something they're looking to experience. I think it's been often been stated here how power electronics has been stated dead already decades ago, but similarly to punk it just keeps on going on. It couldn't possibly be the same anyway as all the culture and communication around & within it has changed to such an extent, and keeps doing so. I think I may have missed your point though.

Quote from: DBL on January 10, 2025, 08:05:29 PMAbout being resistant to change/progress, I'm not sure I 100% agree. I mean, there are a lot of types of noise/PE and the crowd the stuff gathers is quite diverse, and both keep changing. Even if some larger group would say "this line-in sound is killing true PE" or "analog xerox collages are wannabe wank" or whatever, it likely won't matter to those who see it as something they're looking to experience. I think it's been often been stated here how power electronics has been stated dead already decades ago, but similarly to punk it just keeps on going on. It couldn't possibly be the same anyway as all the culture and communication around & within it has changed to such an extent, and keeps doing so. I think I may have missed your point though.

Following off on this since it is an interesting thought (although maybe not the original point of the thread) — Puritanism or ideas of what noise / PE "should be" serve an important role as said puritans act as traditionalists of the genres. Obviously with my label activities I am a fan of different approaches towards noise. But more opinionated takes on the genre serve well to keep the traditions of decades past. Look at D-beat punk for instance, very simple archetype of using the same drum beat across different bands — not reinventing the wheel and not going to be for everyone. But, it is clearly something that certain people are passionate about, as well as a tradition that they wish to keep alive.

To give my two cents on the original topic — if a noise artist is one of my favorites, I enjoy their approach to the genre and thus it feels like hyperbole to describe anything as their worst. There can be releases that don't impact me in the same way as others, but it would be rare for a favorite artist to put anything out that I honestly regard as bad instead of merely disappointing.

Maybe when a noise artist puts something out completely different from their prior output? Like the aforementioned Con-Dom "Subjection" where Mike is doing harsh noise instead of his more expected approach. Or Controlled Bleeding releases where over the years their style completely shifts from noise and into other territories (post-punk, industrial rock, etc.) But it is hard to listen to an artist with a defined sound, and truly feel that any of their releases are significantly worse than others. Really, it is only abrupt changes in a performer's genre / style that can put me off from certain releases.

Quote from: DBL on January 10, 2025, 08:05:29 PMAbout being resistant to change/progress, I'm not sure I 100% agree. I mean, there are a lot of types of noise/PE and the crowd the stuff gathers is quite diverse, and both keep changing. Even if some larger group would say "this line-in sound is killing true PE" or "analog xerox collages are wannabe wank" or whatever, it likely won't matter to those who see it as something they're looking to experience. I think it's been often been stated here how power electronics has been stated dead already decades ago, but similarly to punk it just keeps on going on. It couldn't possibly be the same anyway as all the culture and communication around & within it has changed to such an extent, and keeps doing so. I think I may have missed your point though.

To clarify: More so what I was suggesting is do fans impose onto artist who are "successful" expectations that could impede progress and do the artist (or would you as an artist) be afraid to deviate from the material which you were more appreciated for? Like the examples of Con-Dom or Controlled bleeding, or something like MO kiss the carpet where the artist made changes, but the fans were not necessarily into those releases and may rate them less or in some cases ignore a project after a period of time. Discharge is another example of this, late vs early discharge, and would you like the later stuff more if it had a different name? I don't think there's anything wrong with it either, but that's more so what I was suggesting when I was talking about "change/progress" rather than genre as a whole.

Regarding the question of genre: I do agree with you that's there's many styles in noise/PE and I agree with Tribe Tapes that puritanism is important too. I agree the idea of PE/Dbeat/Whatever being dead is a silly idea, though I think in regards to the traditionalism the stuff I personally enjoy the most from that angle of it is when the artist is able to self aware of where its coming from (what its looking back too, and therefore looking forward) rather than being a generic clone where it really doesn't exist outside of a tribute to.

Quote from: Johann on January 11, 2025, 08:19:53 AMTo clarify: More so what I was suggesting is do fans impose onto artist who are "successful" expectations that could impede progress and do the artist (or would you as an artist) be afraid to deviate from the material which you were more appreciated for? Like the examples of Con-Dom or Controlled bleeding, or something like MO kiss the carpet where the artist made changes, but the fans were not necessarily into those releases and may rate them less or in some cases ignore a project after a period of time. Discharge is another example of this, late vs early discharge, and would you like the later stuff more if it had a different name? I don't think there's anything wrong with it either, but that's more so what I was suggesting when I was talking about "change/progress" rather than genre as a whole.

Regarding the question of genre: I do agree with you that's there's many styles in noise/PE and I agree with Tribe Tapes that puritanism is important too. I agree the idea of PE/Dbeat/Whatever being dead is a silly idea, though I think in regards to the traditionalism the stuff I personally enjoy the most from that angle of it is when the artist is able to self aware of where its coming from (what its looking back too, and therefore looking forward) rather than being a generic clone where it really doesn't exist outside of a tribute to.

I think it can go both ways. Audience expectations might limit what the artist does, but the expectations might also push the artist further into something as the audience can act like a "creative counterforce". I mean, if there are clear stated expectations, it's equally possible you intentionally start going the opposite way, whereas if there were no expectations (or you weren't aware of them) you might've just kept on doing the same as before. Or even if you kept doing more or less the same as before, you might rise the bar higher for yourself knowing there are some people you'd like to impress.

Discharge is a good example heheh, I'd be curious to hear about people who though the band had gotten better when they did Grave New World. In black metal, bands like Beherit and Havohej are loved by some people for their more brutal works and hated for the more ambient stuff they've done, because it's a great band doing a wrong thing. I think there's some beauty in a band doing something completely unexpected even if it's something I don't like, but I'm not against the more "puritan / gatekeeping" mindset either.

But sometimes it's a joy to be disappointed. Maybe some new release wasn't what I wanted it to be, but instead was something I couldn't even have known I wanted to hear. Not the best example, but the new third Vihanmiehet album comes to mind. I first was quite annoyed how heavy it was on the "techno beat", but after a while I went "you know, actually this sounds exactly how I am feeling at the moment". It clicked, but I wouldn't have guessed it would - and even as such, I'm not sure how much I actually like that album.

Similarly to you I appreciate the artists' self-awareness. It's good to be aware of the field they operate in and its history and traditions at least to some extent, even if they chose to abandon most or all of them. I guess this awareness is kind of similar to what I wrote about the audience expectations as a creative counterforce: knowing what's been done might help you set a goal to aim at. It might also be awareness that what you were thinking about doing has already been done often and well enough, so it sets you on a path to something else but doesn't specify this new destination. Just sets the goalpost at "something else".

Nothing to say about this except I don't think any noise-related album should need to be any longer than an hour. Except for some special ones (i.e. Fentanyl Martyrs) some artists/noisicians should look at themselves and ask:  "Is this what I do really warranted 2 discs, or should I look at my material once again and trim some of the grey filler out?"

But then again, it's their release so they totally should do with their release what they want.

Quote from: W.K. on January 12, 2025, 01:16:52 PMNothing to say about this except I don't think any noise-related album should need to be any longer than an hour. Except for some special ones (i.e. Fentanyl Martyrs) some artists/noisicians should look at themselves and ask:  "Is this what I do really warranted 2 discs, or should I look at my material once again and trim some of the grey filler out?"

But then again, it's their release so they totally should do with their release what they want.

Unrelated to the topic per se, but your post reminded me of my hometown in the 90s and early 2000s. Back then, finding legitimate CDs was nearly impossible - everything was a bootleg copy (not that I cared or even knew the difference at the time). In hindsight, I suspect a lot of those CDs were made from MP3 files.

There were some quirky things about those bootlegs. First, they were actual CDs, not CDRs (!!!), and they were cheap. But the most amusing part was that every single one of them contained 80 minutes of music, the maximum for an audio CD. It's like the bootleggers were determined to give the most value for money to a cost-conscious population, ha! For the longest time, I honestly thought there was some written or unwritten rule that albums had to be 80 minutes long.

It wasn't until the internet arrived in my neighborhood that I realised what was really going on. These CDs were often padded with tracks from earlier albums or even rare demos to fill them up. This meant that even a 40–50 minute album would be maxed out with bonus songs. I can't tell you how confused I was later when I tried to make sense of tracklists and timelines!

P.S. Fentanyl Martyrs is such a great album. In my typical fashion (I might be musically dyslexic when it comes to artist names), I spent ages confusing Survival Unit, Support Unit, Crawl Unit, and the likes. I avoided listening to Fentanyl Martyrs for a while, thinking it was by the wrong "Unit", the one I didn't like.

I think this is a fun topic and food for thought. I don't think any answer to this has to be endlessly dissected it's just about hearing people's opinions. As for mine here are a few:

Brighter Death Now - Obsessis - I find this BDN album pretty boring and repetitive with most of the tracks being too long

Merzbow - Amlux, Merzbeat - most of the early digital Merzbow releases sucked, everyone kind of knows that. I haven't heard a great Merzbow record during or after he had his digital-only phase

Prurient - Black Vase, Annihilationist - the super high pitched and free jazz drumming of Black Vase was peak Providence costume noise style for me. Having been very familiar with that scene it was a sound I was explicitly not into. Prurient also has a lot of other really boring wall noise type releases like Annihilationist fluffing up his discography. I think because of the breadth and depth of his work there's a lot of bad-to-mediocre stuff there but he's done some great and very good albums so overall love the Project but there's a lot I can do without.

Controlled Death - yea someone mentioned this earlier. I was beyond psyched to hear Masonna was doing a death industrial project but it's all just lo-fi synth drones that have little appeal to me.

MK9 - I love Death Squad but MK9 is a bit too avant garde and conceptual for me. I did like the concepts though but the audio portion never really did anything for me.

Der Blutharsch - When they went psych rock it didn't really appeal to me. I do like the collab with King Dude but everything else was pretty mid.

Cold Spring Records - damn, I feel like this label has really shit the bed lately. They used to release a lot of heavy hitters but they seem to be focusing on solo projects from once legendary bands mostly and it's all just very milquetoast

In Slaughter Natives - I love a lot of the new stuff but I went back and try to listen to Enter Now The World and it's nigh unlistenable. Did not age well!

Ha, well. There are a few. I feel like I could go on but why bother?

Quote from: xdementia on January 16, 2025, 09:39:14 AMControlled Death - yea someone mentioned this earlier. I was beyond psyched to hear Masonna was doing a death industrial project but it's all just lo-fi synth drones that have little appeal to me.

That brings to mind something for this thread, the Masonna/Controlled Death split on Trapdoor Tapes. I am a huge Masonna fan but this one was super weak and it did not sound like Masonna at all. I don't mean an artist needs to keep doing the same thing over and over again (with Masonna that would have been fantastic) but this one was lacking in every aspect. And then somehow it got repressed on vinyl?! On this release Controlled Death was actually way better than Masonna.

Quote from: BatteredStatesofEuphoria on January 08, 2025, 08:55:39 PMI guess Con-Dom-Subjection would fit the bill. It was interesting to hear Mike do a take on harsh noise instead of his usual approach, but once the novelty of that wore off, I found it just couldn't sustain my interest. I've always felt it would've worked better as a C30 than a C60. Its not that the sounds are bad, per se, it just overstays its welcome. Less would've been more.

This. When it comes to Con-Dom, wild about the classic, the split with the Grey Wolves, etc. etc. But man, this album just bored me to tears, and I'm big on harsh noise. It was a struggle to get through all the way even once. By far his most underwhelming release.

Beyond that, I'm equally nonplussed by Whitehouse's Buchenwald. Bennett and co. remain to this day my favorite PE act alongside the Grey Wolves (I realize they're often cited as a death industrial pioneer, but they remain foundational PE to my ears), but goddamn, that album has gotta be the most sorely lacking in substance and direction and excitement of their entire discography. Also don't dig Racket either, for that matter.

I'm first and foremost a black/death metal guy - cut my teeth in the late '90s/early '00s on the classics - so I've gotta mention Emperor's IX Equilibrium from '99. Yeesh. I remember being so damn excited about that album. I even showed up to the record store on the day it came out to pick up a copy, and as the first notes of 'Curse You All Men!' hit my ears, I remember thinking, "Wow, the new Emperor! Finally! Man, this! This... This sucks."

All of that said, I'm not inherently opposed to artists deviating from their previous work (Subjection and Racket both fall into this category; Buchenwald is classic Whitehouse but poorly executed). I've seen Prurient mentioned a number of times in this thread, and that's a perfect example: I'm equally a fan of The History of Aids and Pleasure Ground as I am Bermuda Drain and Frozen Niagara Falls as I am Through the Window. My issue with the albums I mentioned above is that they just don't have soul. I need that in my music, desperately, and if there isn't some degree of spiritedness in the proceedings, count me out.

Quote from: xdementia on January 16, 2025, 09:39:14 AMI haven't heard a great Merzbow record during or after he had his digital-only phase

Dharma?

Quote from: xdementia on January 16, 2025, 09:39:14 AMIn Slaughter Natives - I love a lot of the new stuff but I went back and try to listen to Enter Now The World and it's nigh unlistenable. Did not age well!

It does approach that line towards cheesiness at times, but, maybe because my opinion on it was formed and hardened from many listens to it in the era when it was still "fresh," I find it still holds up better than some other artists from then.

What DOESN'T hold up, and in fact, never did to begin with, were those tracks on the follow up, Sacrosants Bleed, where he tried to go "metal." It was awful then...and still is, heh. Thankfully, he must've gotten the memo, and never tried it again.

Quote from: BatteredStatesofEuphoria on January 22, 2025, 09:03:50 PM

Quote from: xdementia on January 16, 2025, 09:39:14 AMI haven't heard a great Merzbow record during or after he had his digital-only phase

Dharma?

Dharma is the best album of the laptop era

Quote from: Stipsi on January 22, 2025, 09:52:49 PMDharma is the best album of the laptop era

Collapse 12 Floors would like to have a word with you.

Quote from: k.p.g on January 23, 2025, 03:10:36 PM

Quote from: Stipsi on January 22, 2025, 09:52:49 PMDharma is the best album of the laptop era

Collapse 12 Floors would like to have a word with you.

Ahahahah! Yes! Good one to! But still prefer dharma!

Quote from: Stipsi on January 23, 2025, 04:55:49 PM

Quote from: k.p.g on January 23, 2025, 03:10:36 PM

Quote from: Stipsi on January 22, 2025, 09:52:49 PMDharma is the best album of the laptop era

Collapse 12 Floors would like to have a word with you.

Ahahahah! Yes! Good one to! But still prefer dharma!

I know Collapse... is technically a "laptop era" album, but I always have a hard time thinking of it as one, maybe because it's essentially the beginning of it, and the spirit of the previous era still seems to permeate it.

I do find it tends to drag a bit in a few places, but its still worthwhile.

Dharma OTOH is tight and focused the whole way through ("Frozen Guitars and Sunloop/7e 802" would probably make it worth it all by itself, one of his most epic tracks) with no wasted moments. One of the few digital era releases that can legitimately stand toe to toe with some of the analog era classics IMO.

Quote from: BatteredStatesofEuphoria on January 23, 2025, 09:03:09 PMOne of the few digital era releases that can legitimately stand toe to toe with some of the analog era classics IMO.

I will always go to bat for Dolphin Sonar, bad art and all.