I'm not sure if I know how to properly express this without sounding like a dickhead, but has anyone else noticed how there seems to be too many PE and PE-adjacent projects nowadays?
I'm mostly referencing the constant onslaught of new releases one sees on various Facebook groups dedicated to PE, Death Industrial, etc.
The thing that bothers me the most is, I don't see a lot of discourse on things. People will make a post "hey, here's my new EP, etc." and it just seems to sit there. Very little in the way of discussion, or even people seeming to react to a release at all.
This is reminiscent to me of the many newer bedroom black metal/limited vinyl scene, where it's so easy to crank shit out now due to ease of recording processes/the internet.
My concern is that not a lot of producers of this kind of music see it as an art form of any sort of depth or expression, but a fast way to exalt one's ego perhaps. Though this could be nothing more than a (slightly) old man yelling at the clouds moment on my end. That said, I'm interested in the thoughts of the artists on this forum and if they have felt the same way at any point in their musical endeavors.
Quote from: VORACLE on January 11, 2025, 08:57:33 PMI'm not sure if I know how to properly express this without sounding like a dickhead, but has anyone else noticed how there seems to be too many PE and PE-adjacent projects nowadays?
I'm mostly referencing the constant onslaught of new releases one sees on various Facebook groups dedicated to PE, Death Industrial, etc.
The thing that bothers me the most is, I don't see a lot of discourse on things. People will make a post "hey, here's my new EP, etc." and it just seems to sit there. Very little in the way of discussion, or even people seeming to react to a release at all.
This is reminiscent to me of the many newer bedroom black metal/limited vinyl scene, where it's so easy to crank shit out now due to ease of recording processes/the internet.
My concern is that not a lot of producers of this kind of music see it as an art form of any sort of depth or expression, but a fast way to exalt one's ego perhaps. Though this could be nothing more than a (slightly) old man yelling at the clouds moment on my end. That said, I'm interested in the thoughts of the artists on this forum and if they have felt the same way at any point in their musical endeavors.
Definitely lots of new everything in every kind of music now a days. I think my bigger gripe about it and this could be the old man in me, but I think there is too much bandcamp only releases and click and download releases with no psychical presence. In my opinion that's more of the problem, because it seems to me that those kinds of artists that don't want to put out releases the kind that you can hold in your hand, don't really care enough outside of yesterday and are quickly to the next thing. Soundcloud seems to be a hub for those types of artists. I personally enjoy a spontaneous type of discography full of things by artists like BLJ, Vomir, Noise Nazi, ect. I like that their is presence of something there though in regards to media I can hold on to, rather than some digital files. That's my two cents for what it's worth.
Agr
Quote from: Cranial Blast on January 11, 2025, 09:20:28 PMQuote from: VORACLE on January 11, 2025, 08:57:33 PMI'm not sure if I know how to properly express this without sounding like a dickhead, but has anyone else noticed how there seems to be too many PE and PE-adjacent projects nowadays?
I'm mostly referencing the constant onslaught of new releases one sees on various Facebook groups dedicated to PE, Death Industrial, etc.
The thing that bothers me the most is, I don't see a lot of discourse on things. People will make a post "hey, here's my new EP, etc." and it just seems to sit there. Very little in the way of discussion, or even people seeming to react to a release at all.
This is reminiscent to me of the many newer bedroom black metal/limited vinyl scene, where it's so easy to crank shit out now due to ease of recording processes/the internet.
My concern is that not a lot of producers of this kind of music see it as an art form of any sort of depth or expression, but a fast way to exalt one's ego perhaps. Though this could be nothing more than a (slightly) old man yelling at the clouds moment on my end. That said, I'm interested in the thoughts of the artists on this forum and if they have felt the same way at any point in their musical endeavors.
Definitely lots of new everything in every kind of music now a days. I think my bigger gripe about it and this could be the old man in me, but I think there is too much bandcamp only releases and click and download releases with no psychical presence. In my opinion that's more of the problem, because it seems to me that those kinds of artists that don't want to put out releases the kind that you can hold in your hand, don't really care enough outside of yesterday and are quickly to the next thing. Soundcloud seems to be a hub for those types of artists. I personally enjoy a spontaneous type of discography full of things by artists like BLJ, Vomir, Noise Nazi, ect. I like that their is presence of something there though in regards to media I can hold on to, rather than some digital files. That's my two cents for what it's worth.
Agreed, yeah. That said, I'm guilty of this too with my own project. And realizing this has sort of made me part of the problem (though I'm not doing RELENTLESS releases like some of these modern-day projects are... I only have one).
But yeah there's something to the physical aspect of releases. It means the artist had to "slow down" and think methodically before releasing something to the general public, as opposed to just uploading some fucking wav files to Bandcamp or whatever.
Quote from: VORACLE on January 11, 2025, 09:31:33 PMAgrQuote from: Cranial Blast on January 11, 2025, 09:20:28 PMQuote from: VORACLE on January 11, 2025, 08:57:33 PMI'm not sure if I know how to properly express this without sounding like a dickhead, but has anyone else noticed how there seems to be too many PE and PE-adjacent projects nowadays?
I'm mostly referencing the constant onslaught of new releases one sees on various Facebook groups dedicated to PE, Death Industrial, etc.
The thing that bothers me the most is, I don't see a lot of discourse on things. People will make a post "hey, here's my new EP, etc." and it just seems to sit there. Very little in the way of discussion, or even people seeming to react to a release at all.
This is reminiscent to me of the many newer bedroom black metal/limited vinyl scene, where it's so easy to crank shit out now due to ease of recording processes/the internet.
My concern is that not a lot of producers of this kind of music see it as an art form of any sort of depth or expression, but a fast way to exalt one's ego perhaps. Though this could be nothing more than a (slightly) old man yelling at the clouds moment on my end. That said, I'm interested in the thoughts of the artists on this forum and if they have felt the same way at any point in their musical endeavors.
Definitely lots of new everything in every kind of music now a days. I think my bigger gripe about it and this could be the old man in me, but I think there is too much bandcamp only releases and click and download releases with no psychical presence. In my opinion that's more of the problem, because it seems to me that those kinds of artists that don't want to put out releases the kind that you can hold in your hand, don't really care enough outside of yesterday and are quickly to the next thing. Soundcloud seems to be a hub for those types of artists. I personally enjoy a spontaneous type of discography full of things by artists like BLJ, Vomir, Noise Nazi, ect. I like that their is presence of something there though in regards to media I can hold on to, rather than some digital files. That's my two cents for what it's worth.
Agreed, yeah. That said, I'm guilty of this too with my own project. And realizing this has sort of made me part of the problem (though I'm not doing RELENTLESS releases like some of these modern-day projects are... I only have one).
But yeah there's something to the physical aspect of releases. It means the artist had to "slow down" and think methodically before releasing something to the general public, as opposed to just uploading some fucking wav files to Bandcamp or whatever.
It seems to me like this new younger generation doesn't share the quite the same enthusiasm and now I sound like a dickhead, haha. I just feel like this culture of put your shit out there on bandcamp and who cares about a tape or CD, that kind of bugs me, but who am I to say. It's another old man vs the youngin debate. I was browsing the CDs at a record shop one day and this group of young men, must of been like 18-20 they were looking and talking about CDs and one of them said my mom use to have some of these and I'm come on kid this isn't any antique shop and other kids laughed, but in reality that's what these kids today think! Most of them walk around with phone and headphones. It's a different world today! There are some artists on the Soundcloud that I've quite enjoyed their music and even ask them about releasing a tape and I've gotten back at least two replies saying and not in verbatim, but something along the lines of...why would I want to put my music on a tape? What for?...I'm shellshocked, but that's the world we are living in and with that said this why I'm annoyed by it, because with the way they make and listen to music, they'll get bored and fizzle out! The dedication will not stay, not for most them! We all are guilty of releasing lots of stuff, especially in noise, but on the other hand most of us who release a lot, buy a lot, listen a lot! Find other ways to get involved and "involved" being the key word and difference setting apart from the artists who just want to upload their shit and move on. I mean how many of them would find the enthusiasm to prepare orders and skip lunch tomorrow on their break to get to the post office to mail tapes and CDs! Not saying at all that their aren't any younger people who dedicated as their certainly are, but when it comes to the average person, the world will be getting more click and listen and be lazy.
On the contrary, I've been thinking that there is a lack of good PE releases. Might be because I don't care to follow the bandcamp releases at all. Make more good power electronics!
Quote from: Cranial Blast on January 11, 2025, 09:54:40 PMIt seems to me like this new younger generation doesn't share the quite the same enthusiasm and now I sound like a dickhead, haha.
Quote from: Cranial Blast on January 11, 2025, 09:54:40 PMI mean how many of them would find the enthusiasm to prepare orders and skip lunch tomorrow on their break to get to the post office to mail tapes and CDs! Not saying at all that their aren't any younger people who dedicated as their certainly are, but when it comes to the average person, the world will be getting more click and listen and be lazy.
I'm not really disagreeing with you as a whole as my interest in digital-only releases is very limited, but I have to point out that a big part of what seems like lack of enthusiasm in this context might be just about having grown up with different norms of hearing/consuming sounds, and a wholly different view of what is a noise release. If mailing out or ordering physical stuff was never mandatory for you to do so you'd get to hear any noise in the first place, it might just not seem like a part of the noise culture you've grown up with. It might be a bit of a chore to explain someone why something that takes more time and (more) money is an improvement even if it'd make 100% sense to you yourself, heheh.
I guess this might be related to some people having a growing hunger for talking about noise, or hearing/seeing people talk about it. Earlier you had to take part in talking about noise or finding some zine or other platform where others talk about it to get introduced to more noise. Now you have tags and algorithms and don't have to talk or listen to anyone to get more and more noise.
Would make sense that when there's much less public critique, open dialog etc. that the end results would get more dull, or to follow the topic's title, less nuanced. You've got less of that external force to push you further so you might be settling for less without realizing it. Goes for both makers and listeners I guess.
Quote from: DBL on January 12, 2025, 12:41:58 AMQuote from: Cranial Blast on January 11, 2025, 09:54:40 PMIt seems to me like this new younger generation doesn't share the quite the same enthusiasm and now I sound like a dickhead, haha.
Quote from: Cranial Blast on January 11, 2025, 09:54:40 PMI mean how many of them would find the enthusiasm to prepare orders and skip lunch tomorrow on their break to get to the post office to mail tapes and CDs! Not saying at all that their aren't any younger people who dedicated as their certainly are, but when it comes to the average person, the world will be getting more click and listen and be lazy.
I'm not really disagreeing with you as a whole as my interest in digital-only releases is very limited, but I have to point out that a big part of what seems like lack of enthusiasm in this context might be just about having grown up with different norms of hearing/consuming sounds, and a wholly different view of what is a noise release. If mailing out or ordering physical stuff was never mandatory for you to do so you'd get to hear any noise in the first place, it might just not seem like a part of the noise culture you've grown up with. It might be a bit of a chore to explain someone why something that takes more time and (more) money is an improvement even if it'd make 100% sense to you yourself, heheh.
I guess this might be related to some people having a growing hunger for talking about noise, or hearing/seeing people talk about it. Earlier you had to take part in talking about noise or finding some zine or other platform where others talk about it to get introduced to more noise. Now you have tags and algorithms and don't have to talk or listen to anyone to get more and more noise.
Would make sense that when there's much less public critique, open dialog etc. that the end results would get more dull, or to follow the topic's title, less nuanced. You've got less of that external force to push you further so you might be settling for less without realizing it. Goes for both makers and listeners I guess.
Exactly! You're correct, it's a lot about what you grew up with and what's normal, definitely goes to back to the who's right and who's wrong and there really isn't a wrong or right way. It's just what you know. I guess I'm thinking about digital file music in the context of how people use social media and how it becomes such a nano blip of interest until the next thing comes out. There are certainly some benefits to the digital landscape of today that brings some new ideas in the regards to communication. Podcasts seem to be the place for a lot noise interest communications these days. The good part in all of this though, is that we still have all these forms of media still, which is great! Nothing has really gone away in a sense. The last sentence in your last paragraph makes a lot of sense too, it's like one could be in a loop of habitat and ideas and could find things to becoming dull just the same.
Part of the inital question has been discussed in a previous topic - that a certain formula is getting "stale" vs people wanting that certain formula even though it has been done before.
When it comes to PE/heavy electronics I agree with TVS totally, we need more of that. I think the number of active projects in that style is very small compared to f.e. the harsh noise scene. I am doing my best to keep the spirit alive... as the slogan says "Make Power Electronics a threat again", haha.
(Too lazy to dig in old topics right now, but I remember an old thread where these kind of projects were listed)
I think there is too much of certain types of "PE". More into gadget focused heavy electronics. More leaning to scenario that is probably the easiest to make:
-synth oscillation
-shouting aggro vocals with heavy effects
-digital recording with all things at max -type of approach to mastering, making it sound like.. whatever game music gone bad, instead of rough noise.
I was reading new Rocker zines, where mr. Trude wrote painfully harsh reviews of items he bought in good faith. As PE fan, buying item and getting something that agitated him to write half page observation of current state of "PE".
It is often discussed that power electronics that is influenced by other power electronics gets very lame. Well, it does, if it is contemporary circle jerk, where everybody does the heavy slab of oscillation done with currently available synths and throws in the vocals with same flanger and delay -treatment... and has no other vision or intent, than to "sound like PE".
It is entirely different thing, to actually look back to history of industrial-noise & power electronics, hear the vast possibilities of "genre" and approach it from perspective that is personally important and interesting. Even going through handful of releases of Con-Dom, Grey Wolves and such OBVIOUS and so well known examples, and one can see that it can be done in so many different ways. Add bunch of old compilations, and you might get realization that how come these all sounds very different and how come now there is so often that same timbre or same production style or same structural "ideas". In one hand, it makes me think how much power electronics is current age "PE maker" listening to? If its metal dude or vegan sXe guy, I can assume there will be the distorted oscillation + aggro vocal routine if PE indeed is seen as rock'n'roll side of noise. Then synth tend to be approached like rock guitars, vocals like yelling HC songs, etc etc.. Contemporary stuff birthing more similar approach and.... for many years the old TESCO slogan has been good recommendation: "back to basics"! Not to copy to basics, but check out how vast the expression was then and then finding your own ways to expand. Its like looking what exactly made those artists powerful and interesting. If only quality one finds is "Korg", it is quite unfortunate.
RE: Young -not only- people's habits : If that bothers you, Simply, dont spoon-feed them. Make them hunt.
I am not young, neither i was when i found out that noise interests me. I had stopped buying any music since i was 19. Once i understood that noise is for me i faced the reality that shitty MP3 rips is not 'enough' , nor i could find or wait anyone else to share stuff i wanted to listen. So i did my little work. Bought a working deck and started actively looking for my music.
On the topic: I agree with some previous replies. There is oversaturation in good [and decent] new harsh noise, not in good [and decent] new PE. Probably cause to my ears decent PE is not enough, it needs to be good. When decent HN is ... OK, i can listen it and have fun.
If you are irritated by too much noise it doesn't mean there is too much stuff out there, it means you are too much on the internet.
Can there be too much noise and PE? I think not.
Worst case scenario is that there is too much mediocre stuff, but looking at labels and artists I see a lot of good stuff, great stuff and exciting releases, so I don't agree with your assessment.
Time to move away from faceless Facebook and Instagram and only follow the good stuff.
Quote from: W.K. on January 12, 2025, 12:55:05 PMIf you are irritated by too much noise it doesn't mean there is too much stuff out there, it means you are too much on the internet.
Can there be too much noise and PE? I think not.
Worst case scenario is that there is too much mediocre stuff, but looking at labels and artists I see a lot of good stuff, great stuff and exciting releases, so I don't agree with your assessment.
Time to move away from faceless Facebook and Instagram and only follow the good stuff.
I guess my next question is, what is your methodology for doing so?
While I do agree physical releases are important to a certain extent, there's also the fact that live preformences are important to music in general, and tenfold in Noise.
Part of the reason Noise got it's reputation in the first place was either the extremely aggressive and off the wall live shows or some dude standing at a table fiddling with hundreds of knobs.
Live preformences is kinda how you get your foot in the door in general. I could go on a whole nother tangent on that but I wanna stay on topic.
These guys who make these Noise recordings in their room, post it on bandcamp, and hope to get a following dont really understand that in the slightest. 90 precent of the time the whole reason an algorithm picks you up because there's enough people behind it. Even Youtubers know this extensively.
Its like how one guy put it on a forum I'm on:
"Years upon years of internet marketing and community building has never amounted to as much as a single night at an open mic for artists, or a performance...If you have chronically online fans who only interact with you through the internet, convincing them to come out to you is one of the most important things you can do to secure a fan for life."
Also props to the posters who remind older people that kids grow up with different customs and won't fully understand something that they grew up with. I do like the older mindset but I do feel that a lot of older people are very harsh to zoomers/whatever kids because they didn't grow up with tape and cd and therefore don't understand it.
Quote from: groesk on January 12, 2025, 08:23:46 PMWhile I do agree physical releases are important to a certain extent, there's also the fact that live preformences are important to music in general, and tenfold in Noise.
Part of the reason Noise got it's reputation in the first place was either the extremely aggressive and off the wall live shows or some dude standing at a table fiddling with hundreds of knobs.
Live preformences is kinda how you get your foot in the door in general. I could go on a whole nother tangent on that but I wanna stay on topic.
These guys who make these Noise recordings in their room, post it on bandcamp, and hope to get a following dont really understand that in the slightest. 90 precent of the time the whole reason an algorithm picks you up because there's enough people behind it. Even Youtubers know this extensively.
Its like how one guy put it on a forum I'm on:
"Years upon years of internet marketing and community building has never amounted to as much as a single night at an open mic for artists, or a performance...If you have chronically online fans who only interact with you through the internet, convincing them to come out to you is one of the most important things you can do to secure a fan for life."
Also props to the posters who remind older people that kids grow up with different customs and won't fully understand something that they grew up with. I do like the older mindset but I do feel that a lot of older people are very harsh to zoomers/whatever kids because they didn't grow up with tape and cd and therefore don't understand it.
This is terribly accurate. I never "got" noise until I went to a local noise show that merged with an art gallery unveiling. Witnessing the combination of disciplines was really impactful for me that night, and it changed me from your typical "black metal grognard" to a person more interested in experimenting with sound, visuals, and even other things that are used in a more marketing sense now (such as live ritualism in a spiritual/shamanic sense).
Quote from: VORACLE on January 12, 2025, 06:30:57 PMQuote from: W.K. on January 12, 2025, 12:55:05 PMIf you are irritated by too much noise it doesn't mean there is too much stuff out there, it means you are too much on the internet.
Can there be too much noise and PE? I think not.
Worst case scenario is that there is too much mediocre stuff, but looking at labels and artists I see a lot of good stuff, great stuff and exciting releases, so I don't agree with your assessment.
Time to move away from faceless Facebook and Instagram and only follow the good stuff.
I guess my next question is, what is your methodology for doing so?
There are so many good releases right now, I don't know why anyone would waste time with mediocre ones.
Maybe that's very simply put, but the older one gets the less one cares about what should or shouldn't be. Focus on the good things, good noise, concerts, live performances, artist and labels that put out quality work and you will see there is more than enough to keep yourself occupied without the need to be riled up over mediocre stuff. Maybe that sounds boring and adult, but that's really what it is, not enough time for all the new stuff anyways.
Lack of discussion, I do agree, but as a lot of people moved away from forums and only use social media now, I don't see this ever returning to how it was with blogs, forums, heated discussions and people falling in and out on little trivial things. I see it happening with other niche genre's too, and it sometimes get itchy about it, but then I see older artist still going strong or even doing more exciting things than ever which gives me all the hope and energy I need.
So I say more noise is always better, the worst is a music genre where everybody complains and nothing gets done. Except for the 'edgy music with anime lolicon girls' type shit, those people can go to hell.
Quote from: W.K. on January 12, 2025, 09:07:25 PMThere are so many good releases right now, I don't know why anyone would waste time with mediocre ones.
Because you might never hear about them, for example. Even if you tried to, or think you tried but did it wrong, heh.
I think the question of "what's your methodology to doing so?" referred to your statement "Time to move away from faceless Facebook and Instagram and only follow the good stuff." How and where does this following happen? If you are not on social medias, where do you get exposed to the good stuff and not (only) the mediocre stuff when it comes to power electronics? Is great power electronics being discussed somewhere, are there some trustworthy reviewers, and so on?
What are the current power electronics releases and projects that spark a discussion, and where does it happen?
As a side note, in this context I wouldn't count labels' adverts as me hearing about GOOD stuff, as if it's just an ad by itself (with no comments, reviews, some visible feedback), it's no different from a social media advert/post despite the different context. Just the same as being subjected to some random youtube link in a stream of other youtube links.
Quote from: DBL on January 12, 2025, 10:18:48 PMQuote from: W.K. on January 12, 2025, 09:07:25 PMThere are so many good releases right now, I don't know why anyone would waste time with mediocre ones.
Because you might never hear about them, for example. Even if you tried to, or think you tried but did it wrong, heh.
I think the question of "what's your methodology to doing so?" referred to your statement "Time to move away from faceless Facebook and Instagram and only follow the good stuff." How and where does this following happen? If you are not on social medias, where do you get exposed to the good stuff and not (only) the mediocre stuff when it comes to power electronics? Is great power electronics being discussed somewhere, are there some trustworthy reviewers, and so on?
What are the current power electronics releases and projects that spark a discussion, and where does it happen?
As a side note, in this context I wouldn't count labels' adverts as me hearing about GOOD stuff, as if it's just an ad by itself (with no comments, reviews, some visible feedback), it's no different from a social media advert/post despite the different context. Just the same as being subjected to some random youtube link in a stream of other youtube links.
This forum, zines every now and then and couple of noise podcast are the only ones I follow. SI forum has always been active enough, that if some release is worthwhile, it is mentioned here. No need to follow some shitty Facebook groups or Instagram feeds.
There's also a couple of threads here, one with good recommendations for recent PE releases, and "Power Electronics is dead" that was a bit similar discussion as this thread.
I don't think there's much I can add to this conversation that hasn't already been said. However, one thing stands out to me: even in nuanced discussions on this topic, people sometimes seem to conflate two distinct concepts - technology itself and what people do with it. A lot of (sometimes snobbish) disdain seems to be directed at digital technology and digital distribution, as though the technology itself is at fault. I don't think that argument holds up.
Digital technology allows musicians and labels to share music with more people, faster, more conveniently (for both artists and listeners), at a lower cost, with infinite durability, and at higher quality than any physical medium (even CDs). It's hard to claim that this is a bad thing. Sure, digital formats lack personal touch and sentimental value, but I'd argue the main thing about a music release, at the end of the day, is music itself (except anti-records, which is a niche within a niche), and for this core purpose, digital technology appears to be superior in almost every way.
That said (and this is what I think is separate to technology as such), digital formats have certainly lowered entry barriers for both fans and musicians. But I don't think this has come at a cost. It's additive. Dedicated fans and artists remain engaged, often participating in more meaningful interactions, live gigs, prioritising physical releases, and generally making extra effort when it comes to exploration or participating in the scene more generally. Meanwhile, digital platforms have opened the genre to casual listeners and newcomers ("noise tourists" is a term I hear now and then). Some of these newcomers will become dedicated, die-hard fans or long-standing artists, while others will naturally fall away over time. No harm is done to the genre or its loyal core fanbase, I think.
As for lack of online discussion, it is a very sad thing indeed but I just don't think it has much to do with digital formats. Mp3 has been around for nearly 30 years, including last 15-20 years as a total mainstream, but online forum discussions and long-form blogging culture started disappearing quite a bit later, with new age social media and low attention span culture rather than due to digital formats.
I don't think most underground music can be, or should be rated in terms of "music itself", if that is limited into "sound coming from speakers". It would appear as absolute fact, that the easiness feeds mimics. In this process of imitations with minimal effort, we may get music that is ok to listen through, but that's that. I think this is absolutely a cost, and the cost is that meaning of expression is traded for comfort. All that little "effort" that comes with integrity and passion, actual personal interactions, physical world creativity, physical world action and thought processes involved with it is far less. Even simples things, like did you do some "legwork", or just sample youtube out of convenience, google picture search artworks. Did the noise spark discussions with maker and contemporaries or someone who might have listened to it? Does maker have any real emotion or something to say about work he does? and so on and on.
Especially power electronics, if you strip it down to point of "good music",big part of it appears as if makers was fixated on easiness of mimicry of basic formula. That the qualities required for actually good basic stuff and or interesting material wasn't even recognized. Sure, I had fun doing it, is fine. Also easy access to hear material, great.
However, for example other music styles, establishment lapdogs creating "punk" in 2025 that sounds as if AI made it, distributed exclusively by multinational corporations. What a joke. Or Black Metal project by jaded family man sitting in his sad sad "mancave", recording couple doable riffs on virtual guitar amp over perfectly programmed drums. None of this is sentimentality to past, just stating, notion of what is, or what contributes to creation of "good music" is up to debate.
Not entirely related to this topic, but "follow, where?" is interesting question. Many have noticed, and its been studied that internet changed so much within last 5-10 years. One thing that creators were warned of, is already broken: that older idea of "following something" online. Now you can "like" things and almost zero things you "follow" or "like" appears on feed. Its algorithm curated junk mostly. This has been mentioned as increasing trouble for so called content makers. Sure they can be podcasting and doing videos all they want, but a lot of currently barely functioning platforms that enable you to reach even the OLD already loyal fans, are deteriorating.
However, of course I'm not jaded or hopeless by any means. Each year been great, and fact is that power electronics tends to have very different pace than noise, I am not cautious even if there would be couple dry years, so to say. The little forum enables, I absolutely recommend using "playlist" or "noise related random talk" or even "new interesting releases" -topics as very low effort ways of proving otherwise. If there really is fantastic releases you think people ain't hearing about and they should, it would be great to have even short comments and hints towards what to check out.
A lot of very interesting thoughts and observations in your post, as always.
Regarding the discussion about whether technology and convenience come with a "cost" I think it ultimately depends on whether they replace more thoughtful, dedicated methods or enhance them. For instance, if there were 1,000 PE artists who sourced audio samples from rare second-hand VHS tapes and crafted handmade collages from personal collections of vintage magazines, modern technology now enables 1,000 more artists to achieve similar results with less effort - using platforms like YouTube and Google Images, as you mentioned.
The real issue arises if the original 1,000 artists become complacent due to these conveniences and stop (or never start) making the effort they otherwise would have. While I don't believe that's generally how the world works, if it does happen, then yes, it would be a cost and a loss to the scene.
I could speak at length about my own experience, which, in some ways, has been directionally the opposite of what you fear. The lower barriers to entry pushed me to start my journey in music-making. I remember that in the first couple of months, I fully embraced every technological shortcut and convenience: sourcing samples from YouTube, releasing music online without accompanying physical formats(those were individual songs anyway), and - forgive me Father for I have sinned - using AI-generated artwork. I even used AI voice generator to create "fake" samples because I couldn't find the ones I wanted (or because they had background music, for example). Yet, as I grew more comfortable with these "lazy" methods, I gradually found myself diving deeper: experimenting with unconventional gear, seeking out unusual sources, replacing samples with original lyrics and vocals, introducing field recordings, and eventually creating my own artwork.
For me, technology was an enabler, helping me begin and then evolve toward a more sophisticated approach (though whether this reflects in the actual quality of my work is not for me to say but at least there is hope). Of course, I recognise that generalising from my personal experience to the broader population is a dangerous business, but I am not arrogant enough to think there is something special or unique about my case.
Quote from: TVS on January 11, 2025, 11:53:11 PMOn the contrary, I've been thinking that there is a lack of good PE releases. Might be because I don't care to follow the bandcamp releases at all. Make more good power electronics!
I agree with this sentiment more. The stuff I see labeled as PE is barely actually that. It's usually either wall noise or experimental/spoken word. Also very mediocre.
I see PE as being a very specific genre similar to punk and I think with both it feels like those genres have kind of reached the end of their run. I think there are a few classic artists that are still killing it but they've just been refining what they've already perfected - Genocide Organ, Human Larvae - or what they are creating isn't even really PE anymore - Sutcliffe
Jugend No More, Lee from NTT (Theologian), Grunt (mostly junk noise now).
Quote from: W.K. on January 12, 2025, 09:07:25 PMQuote from: VORACLE on January 12, 2025, 06:30:57 PMQuote from: W.K. on January 12, 2025, 12:55:05 PMIf you are irritated by too much noise it doesn't mean there is too much stuff out there, it means you are too much on the internet.
Can there be too much noise and PE? I think not.
Worst case scenario is that there is too much mediocre stuff, but looking at labels and artists I see a lot of good stuff, great stuff and exciting releases, so I don't agree with your assessment.
Time to move away from faceless Facebook and Instagram and only follow the good stuff.
I guess my next question is, what is your methodology for doing so?
There are so many good releases right now, I don't know why anyone would waste time with mediocre ones.
Maybe that's very simply put, but the older one gets the less one cares about what should or shouldn't be. Focus on the good things, good noise, concerts, live performances, artist and labels that put out quality work and you will see there is more than enough to keep yourself occupied without the need to be riled up over mediocre stuff. Maybe that sounds boring and adult, but that's really what it is, not enough time for all the new stuff anyways.
Lack of discussion, I do agree, but as a lot of people moved away from forums and only use social media now, I don't see this ever returning to how it was with blogs, forums, heated discussions and people falling in and out on little trivial things. I see it happening with other niche genre's too, and it sometimes get itchy about it, but then I see older artist still going strong or even doing more exciting things than ever which gives me all the hope and energy I need.
So I say more noise is always better, the worst is a music genre where everybody complains and nothing gets done. Except for the 'edgy music with anime lolicon girls' type shit, those people can go to hell.
This is SO TRUE. I ran a webzine for years reviewing all kinds of stuff (very little of it was great) and man I wish I could get back the time I wasted reviewing cruddy and mediocre releases.
Speaking of PE this was released too late in 2024 to really make it onto any list and the first few listens it felt kind of industrial to me but I'm listening now and it feels very PE. Either way, I think it's great with a ton of moods and textures and layers. Worth checking out IMO
https://filthysounds.bandcamp.com/album/ataraxia-nervosa
I want to be clear that I'm not against technology per se (hell, in my first and so far only release, I utilize samples of the "sound" our sun makes, shifted it around, and fucked hard with it to create a "black svn effect") I am against lack of discourse and discussion about things. I also will utilize AI tools to artificially degrade the visual art I create into something new and "alien-esque" perhaps.
Sometimes, I'll fully admit, that some themes in PE make no real sense to me. Like entire record labels dedicated to PE that celebrates lace stockings on women (I can't remember the label at this moment). Most of the music seemed throwaway at best. But perhaps I'm the fool here for not being able to go deeper into these things myself.
Quote from: xdementia on January 16, 2025, 09:09:09 AMQuote from: TVS on January 11, 2025, 11:53:11 PMOn the contrary, I've been thinking that there is a lack of good PE releases. Might be because I don't care to follow the bandcamp releases at all. Make more good power electronics!
I agree with this sentiment more. The stuff I see labeled as PE is barely actually that. It's usually either wall noise or experimental/spoken word. Also very mediocre.
I see PE as being a very specific genre similar to punk and I think with both it feels like those genres have kind of reached the end of their run. I think there are a few classic artists that are still killing it but they've just been refining what they've already perfected - Genocide Organ, Human Larvae - or what they are creating isn't even really PE anymore - Sutcliffe Jugend No More, Lee from NTT (Theologian), Grunt (mostly junk noise now).
Yeah, a lack of proper labeling on various internet outlets is probably muddying the waters quite a bit here. I still sometimes will confuse PE with Death Industrial, for instance, and I will naturally trust an artist to label their output accordingly.
And of course, there's also this shitty little "fad" now on Bandcamp of, say, a grindcore band tagging their project as "show tunes" or whatever to be ironic. I'm certain some noise projects do this as well.
Quote from: VORACLE on January 16, 2025, 09:47:50 AMAnd of course, there's also this shitty little "fad" now on Bandcamp of, say, a grindcore band tagging their project as "show tunes" or whatever to be ironic. I'm certain some noise projects do this as well.
At some point bandcamp were deleting/hiding goregrind, gorenoise etc. stuff, so at least some bands changed their tags to "jpop" or something to avoid deletion. I'm sure it's a joke for many too but it's also used as an anti-censorship method.
The two first reddit topics I came across about it:
BandCamp's Goregrind Block (Run around idea) (https://old.reddit.com/r/grindcore/comments/uihagk/bandcamps_goregrind_block_run_around_idea/?rdt=36165)
BandCamp is screwing over the extreme metal and anti music scenes (https://old.reddit.com/r/grindcore/comments/t6yf6h/bandcamp_is_screwing_over_the_extreme_metal_and/)
Quote from: DBL on January 16, 2025, 11:57:36 AMQuote from: VORACLE on January 16, 2025, 09:47:50 AMAnd of course, there's also this shitty little "fad" now on Bandcamp of, say, a grindcore band tagging their project as "show tunes" or whatever to be ironic. I'm certain some noise projects do this as well.
At some point bandcamp were deleting/hiding goregrind, gorenoise etc. stuff, so at least some bands changed their tags to "jpop" or something to avoid deletion. I'm sure it's a joke for many too but it's also used as an anti-censorship method.
The two first reddit topics I came across about it:
BandCamp's Goregrind Block (Run around idea) (https://old.reddit.com/r/grindcore/comments/uihagk/bandcamps_goregrind_block_run_around_idea/?rdt=36165)
BandCamp is screwing over the extreme metal and anti music scenes (https://old.reddit.com/r/grindcore/comments/t6yf6h/bandcamp_is_screwing_over_the_extreme_metal_and/)
Oh, I had no idea about this. Yet another reason to stop using Bandcamp.
Quote from: Penon on January 15, 2025, 02:23:23 PMThe real issue arises if the original 1,000 artists become complacent due to these conveniences and stop (or never start) making the effort they otherwise would have. While I don't believe that's generally how the world works, if it does happen, then yes, it would be a cost and a loss to the scene.
I think situation is that most of the "old generation" is gone, right? Certain % of those who remain, are not ageing well due the "easy gear", so to say.
I am not certainly against digital gear. A lot of stuff I do, is at least partly digital. Latest album was intentionally so. Never touched magnetic tape, although its not all digital either.
For sake of realism, if is dealing with matters that are "contemporary", the stuff you are about to sample, will be sourced online. A lot of interesting things, they do not come from VHS era.
My point being more of if one is drifting without intent, into most expected ways. There used to be era of technology that was kind of "ideal for noise" so to say. Sound was close to perfection without even knowing what you're doing. We no longer live such era, and sonically speaking, at least from my own perspective, a lot of sound and production suck ass, and now you really need to know. Probably more than in past. Therefore, possibilities to recreate and mimic basic formula are very easy, yet the final touch seems to be something that is far more difficult.
The main point about not just drifting without intent, is that pretty much all artists we known and appreciate, who are most often considered on absolute top of the expression, appear most often quite clueless of technology, but they have absolutely remarkable intent and vision.
My impression is, that most people making power electronics, do not have such artistic passion or obsession. I'm pretty fine with idea of "worshop noise". Circuit benders and synth fetishists etc. All fine. But for power electronics, I do not think that dude who gets tone out of synth qualifies as "power electronics". It would need a lot more than that, including intent, vision and personality. Even merely honest interest.
Therefore, all said here below, is pretty interesting for me. It displays intent, some sort of vision to push things to something that is personally rewarding or meaningful. None of the "old ways" are fundamental and also they are merely tools in hands of creator. New tools and new possibilities can be certainly used for benefit.
Quote from: Penon on January 15, 2025, 02:23:23 PMI could speak at length about my own experience, which, in some ways, has been directionally the opposite of what you fear. The lower barriers to entry pushed me to start my journey in music-making. I remember that in the first couple of months, I fully embraced every technological shortcut and convenience: sourcing samples from YouTube, releasing music online without accompanying physical formats(those were individual songs anyway), and - forgive me Father for I have sinned - using AI-generated artwork. I even used AI voice generator to create "fake" samples because I couldn't find the ones I wanted (or because they had background music, for example). Yet, as I grew more comfortable with these "lazy" methods, I gradually found myself diving deeper: experimenting with unconventional gear, seeking out unusual sources, replacing samples with original lyrics and vocals, introducing field recordings, and eventually creating my own artwork.
For me, technology was an enabler, helping me begin and then evolve toward a more sophisticated approach (though whether this reflects in the actual quality of my work is not for me to say but at least there is hope). Of course, I recognise that generalising from my personal experience to the broader population is a dangerous business, but I am not arrogant enough to think there is something special or unique about my case.
Greatness of new tech, media and platforms is the low entry level. I have probably mentioned it elsewhere, but may re-tell the story of how Grunt started. I was sitting with mr. Harald Mentor (Will Over Matter, back then under name Total Headfuck), listening to... I guess it was MITB/UND split 7" or something back in early '93. We look eachother and say "we could do noise!". After saying this, we agreed idea of split tape, that should be done about next week. And that's what happened. Of course the first split is total dogshit noise, but we both are still here today. So even someone, just sort of crapping out noise release with idea of "anyone can do it", might be start of something. They key thing would be that once "anyone can do it" idea is done, one proceed into: why am I doing this and how should I be doing it?
"....We look eachother and say "we could do noise!". After saying this, we agreed idea of split tape, that should be done about next week. And that's what happened. Of course the first split is total dogshit noise, but we both are still here today. So even someone, just sort of crapping out noise release with idea of "anyone can do it", might be start of something. They key thing would be that once "anyone can do it" idea is done, one proceed into: why am I doing this and how should I be doing it"?
Perfectly explained and probably what's happened to 99% of people at the beginning of the "career".
Quote from: W.K. on January 12, 2025, 12:55:05 PMIf you are irritated by too much noise it doesn't mean there is too much stuff out there, it means you are too much on the internet.
Can there be too much noise and PE? I think not.
Worst case scenario is that there is too much mediocre stuff, but looking at labels and artists I see a lot of good stuff, great stuff and exciting releases, so I don't agree with your assessment.
Time to move away from faceless Facebook and Instagram and only follow the good stuff.
I feel like this is the answer to so much, and the answer is simple, keep the stuff you have and like and stop desperately grabbing for the new and upcoming, ultimately it just doesn't matter. Live with what you love. Sure you're "not supporting" but who cares, your two dollar download doesn't mean shit anyway.
Cream floats to the top, if your late to the game your happy at periods of drought. And believe me the drought is real.
I sympathize with the people frustrated with the digital generation, several shows I went to last year (mostly out of kindness opposed to interest) artist said they'd have a "new Bandcamp single" etc...some of the young I know buy tapes and lp to collect but can't play them, all digital. I got all I need and am not missing anything.
I've given this a few spins in my head and I don't see any indication of oversaturation, lack of musical quality or anything like that. What I do see is a lack of connection on several levels and my take on it is that social media has made us communicate in a different way than we used to leading to certain issues. Before SoMe people used to communicate on a much more physical level; on an international scale they would (hand)write letters, send each other tapes and images, exchange ideas etc. like that and maybe talk over the phone as well. On top of that, they would meet on special and rare occasions for live events. Local scenes would be more like small circles built around friendship and actual social interaction exchanging ideas with reference to the wider international scene they were in contact with. That means there were clear and tangible connections between artists, art an audience. Physical items contained those connections and we could thus relate to them. Now it seems to me that the connection between art and artist is lost in the SoMe public image bullshit machine. Audiences' connection to the art is limited to likes and brief, superficial top 10 lists, fucking bandcamp links and stupid save 10% codes for downloads that have zero value for anyone. That way, the connection between artists and their audience is really just one media image superficially engaging with another one. There is no real and tangible action or meaning behind any of it. We still have live shows, at least, where people meet in real life, form real connections and produce and experience real underground culture in meaningful ways. The point is that with the connections being severed like that on several levels things - releases - lose meaning. That's where we're at, I think, and that's why we often have a hard time connecting with a lot of current stuff.
PE and noise are extremely oversaturated and I haven't seen many original ideas or releases coming out in quite a while. It's sort of the same thing over and over again - obscure band name + controversial subject + extreme limitation = boring and generic PE/noise.
how many more releases do we need dealing with child abuse, prostitution, sexual sadism, white supremacy, etc. before enough is enough? these themes have been beaten in to the ground the last 40+ years and are so boring and trite I can't even listen to 90% of new releases coming out.
Quote from: excruciation on January 28, 2025, 09:29:34 AMPE and noise are extremely oversaturated and I haven't seen many original ideas or releases coming out in quite a while. It's sort of the same thing over and over again - obscure band name + controversial subject + extreme limitation = boring and generic PE/noise.
how many more releases do we need dealing with child abuse, prostitution, sexual sadism, white supremacy, etc. before enough is enough? these themes have been beaten in to the ground the last 40+ years and are so boring and trite I can't even listen to 90% of new releases coming out.
I guess that we are living in completely different realms of noise and PE then! One should just check the current state of Finnish noise for example: wildly different takes on noise and PE aesthetics, very personal sounds and approaches galore. And in the PE realm, there's no "beaten" themes in Vigilantism and Nostoväki to be seen.
But then i guess that one always finds the stuff that one wants to find, regardless of the true state of things.
Quote from: excruciation on January 28, 2025, 09:29:34 AMPE and noise are extremely oversaturated and I haven't seen many original ideas or releases coming out in quite a while. It's sort of the same thing over and over again - obscure band name + controversial subject + extreme limitation = boring and generic PE/noise.
how many more releases do we need dealing with child abuse, prostitution, sexual sadism, white supremacy, etc. before enough is enough? these themes have been beaten in to the ground the last 40+ years and are so boring and trite I can't even listen to 90% of new releases coming out.
What are you actually looking to find in Power Electronics?
Quote from: Commander15 on January 29, 2025, 09:22:19 AMQuote from: excruciation on January 28, 2025, 09:29:34 AMPE and noise are extremely oversaturated and I haven't seen many original ideas or releases coming out in quite a while. It's sort of the same thing over and over again - obscure band name + controversial subject + extreme limitation = boring and generic PE/noise.
how many more releases do we need dealing with child abuse, prostitution, sexual sadism, white supremacy, etc. before enough is enough? these themes have been beaten in to the ground the last 40+ years and are so boring and trite I can't even listen to 90% of new releases coming out.
I guess that we are living in completely different realms of noise and PE then! One should just check the current state of Finnish noise for example: wildly different takes on noise and PE aesthetics, very personal sounds and approaches galore. And in the PE realm, there's no "beaten" themes in Vigilantism and Nostoväki to be seen.
But then i guess that one always finds the stuff that one wants to find, regardless of the true state of things.
I agree, especially in Finland. The Terässinfonia series was a great showcasing of such new artists, all in which kind of have their own unique identities. Not only different in themes, but different in sound as well. Nostoväki is a great example of such artist.
I don't think there is ever an abundance of the more controversial themes and topics. I think it goes hand in hand with power electronics as a whole. It doesn't seem to ever get old for me anyway, It's always expected. I hope that it always remains that way.
Quote from: Cranial Blast on January 30, 2025, 04:37:51 AMQuote from: Commander15 on January 29, 2025, 09:22:19 AMQuote from: excruciation on January 28, 2025, 09:29:34 AMPE and noise are extremely oversaturated and I haven't seen many original ideas or releases coming out in quite a while. It's sort of the same thing over and over again - obscure band name + controversial subject + extreme limitation = boring and generic PE/noise.
how many more releases do we need dealing with child abuse, prostitution, sexual sadism, white supremacy, etc. before enough is enough? these themes have been beaten in to the ground the last 40+ years and are so boring and trite I can't even listen to 90% of new releases coming out.
I guess that we are living in completely different realms of noise and PE then! One should just check the current state of Finnish noise for example: wildly different takes on noise and PE aesthetics, very personal sounds and approaches galore. And in the PE realm, there's no "beaten" themes in Vigilantism and Nostoväki to be seen.
But then i guess that one always finds the stuff that one wants to find, regardless of the true state of things.
I agree, especially in Finland. The Terässinfonia series was a great showcasing of such new artists, all in which kind of have their own unique identities. Not only different in themes, but different in sound as well. Nostoväki is a great example of such artist.
I don't think there is ever an abundance of the more controversial themes and topics. I think it goes hand in hand with power electronics as a whole. It doesn't seem to ever get old for me anyway, It's always expected. I hope that it always remains that way.
Exactly. Terässinfonia is truly outstanding series in compiling finnish new projects and more established projects into same discs but also showing the
diversity between the acts and individual expressions. Unified artwork and the feel of that series also pulls the focus into sonic properties of these projects and there is great merits in that aspect also.
And i agree with you about the traditional themes and approaches in PE. It's not like you can drain the life out of the topics like societal decay, totalitariansm, sexual deviancy etc. It is up to the artist to come up with the personal expression and insights regarding those subject matters. It can be done poorly or it can be done really well and with personal touch and vision. Of course one can be put off by those themes but i see that as an personal preference. I'd rather take the "tired", old themes done well instead of something like, lets say, "autofictive" PE with themes focusing on like ones own feelings, emotions and depression etc.
What comes to the original post of excruciation, i don't get the concept of lack of "original ideas". What are the original ideas in this context? Should the sound sources be more original? Or themes? In my view, the mere focus on being original in some vague way can feel forced or be more of a novelty than "original". And the extreme limitations, what does that mean in the context of industrial noise and PE?
Quote from: Manhog_84 on January 29, 2025, 10:54:02 PMQuote from: excruciation on January 28, 2025, 09:29:34 AMPE and noise are extremely oversaturated and I haven't seen many original ideas or releases coming out in quite a while. It's sort of the same thing over and over again - obscure band name + controversial subject + extreme limitation = boring and generic PE/noise.
how many more releases do we need dealing with child abuse, prostitution, sexual sadism, white supremacy, etc. before enough is enough? these themes have been beaten in to the ground the last 40+ years and are so boring and trite I can't even listen to 90% of new releases coming out.
What are you actually looking to find in Power Electronics?
if you look at the original PE artists, none of them really sounded the same despite having similarities. in this day and age, everything is a copy of a copy of a copy. if you can't figure that out on your own then you are part of the problem.
Quote from: excruciation on February 02, 2025, 01:19:10 AMQuote from: Manhog_84 on January 29, 2025, 10:54:02 PMQuote from: excruciation on January 28, 2025, 09:29:34 AMPE and noise are extremely oversaturated and I haven't seen many original ideas or releases coming out in quite a while. It's sort of the same thing over and over again - obscure band name + controversial subject + extreme limitation = boring and generic PE/noise.
how many more releases do we need dealing with child abuse, prostitution, sexual sadism, white supremacy, etc. before enough is enough? these themes have been beaten in to the ground the last 40+ years and are so boring and trite I can't even listen to 90% of new releases coming out.
What are you actually looking to find in Power Electronics?
if you look at the original PE artists, none of them really sounded the same despite having similarities. in this day and age, everything is a copy of a copy of a copy. if you can't figure that out on your own then you are part of the problem.
Part of the problem? There really isn't a "problem" though, there are plenty of artists out there doing different things. I think you should really explore that Terässinfonia series, so you can catch the full spectrum from a wide variety of different artists, doing different things. Also you can't really compare the pioneers of the past when the genre was first forming to what's been now formed. You'll always have new artists following the blueprint and in some cases I'd say doing it better even. This same argument could be applied to any music genre. I think it's a matter of the listener is going to have to move on and adapt to some change in some form or another or maybe search for a new kind of music genre to listen to entirely that will evoke a sense of worth to you that will be exciting again. Worst case scenario, just stick with what you do like! It's all you can do.