Does anyone have suggestions on how to deal with a dead beat label, especially when the label and person who runs it has a lot of respect in the scene? I actually don't understand it. The guy seems nice enough, but he's ripped off a lot of people in the scene, yet still have much respect from people. This guy asked me to be on a comp and never sent my artist's copies, asked me for trade items from my label and never sent the trade. This was about 8 months ago.
Why don't these artists get blackballed, especially as a reputation amasses for repeated ripping off of people? The solution I'm considering, since this artist is highly collectible is to bootleg his entire discography.
-Ben
if you dont give out the name then people dont know who to avoid.
just post the name, ill promise to say something nasty about him. lets all laugh at him for being a fuck up.
a hissyfit and not dealing with him in the future would me my personal plan.
edit: lol I think I know who this is. ive only had one compsubmission email ignored so no skin of my back. but if somebody is a ripoff it needs to be made public. like the italian videoguy.
Who is the Italian video guy? What has he done, and is this supposed to be common knowledge?
Better to spell out who you're talking about, or else you risk having people believe you're talking about someone else, maybe even someone innocent (as if!)... Looking at the listing of Clew of Theseus comp appearances on discogs, I think I have a hunch who you're talking about, but what the hell do I know?
Most people know who this guy is, most people know he's ripped off tons of people on trades and such. When I mentioned it before, everyone made excuses for him. I guess it's okay to be a deadbeat ripoff fuck when you're the hot shit at the time. Fan boys don't like to hold their gods accountable. If I said it was some unknown dude from Spain, everyone would bad mouth him and black ball him (remember AIPR?), but if it's someone everyone knows and likes it will be ignored. What do you expect from a scene filled with nihilists?
-Ben
OK -- you wanted a suggestion on how to deal with it, and my suggestion is that you do it openly like this.
Smear campaigns and public hangings have always proved to be effective.
Just this week I received a package from Death to Mankind in Spain that I had been waiting for since april last year. I heard a lot of excuses and explanations but now it finally arrived together with plenty of extras to compensate the delays. Karma I guess... I can speak for my own part here when it comes to being uneffective / slow ass at times when it comes to sending out material. if this happen I always try to make up for it some way. For myself there has over the years been circumstances that affects and creates complications in both personal life (and with music related business). Last year I had one of my worst times ever with heavy economic problems / bankruptcy and psychotic woman. Not going public with details because of personal reasons but it forced me to choose between putting all work on ice, live on the street with my 3 year old son or hang from a rope. Obvious priority but it creates other problems in addition...
2010 looks brighter (so far). We moved into new studio with Alfarmania and it also serves as office / headquarters for all activity around. Got new job at an art gallery which allows me to work undisturbed during days with packagings and administrative side of music. Finally raised enough funds and established solid ground to get back on feet with my life and work... If someone has unfinished business with me I advice you to get in touch with PM or mail (alpharmania@gmail.com) to clear it out.
Italian guy is the one who makes the noise related sex clips.. what the name? Don't remember right now. But I think he posted some advert on Chondritic Sound/Troniks board and people made orders, and none got it. When he was confronted about not sending stuff he replied stuff is coming but he doesn't have time to dedicate for label & replying mail all the time since he has also real life...?
Most people tend to be vary on Breathing Problem, Styggelse, Chondritic Sound, and so on. And I guess Cathartic Processes question is related to Styggelse, isn't it? It was already addressed as a problem on before mentioned Chondritic/Troniks forum last year. And we can see Kristian above offering to solve cases that need to be closed. So I think instead of online riddles, just e-mail to eachother and get it done.
I think publishing the names is ok. As long as it looks like every measure has been taken to actually do it. It is no excuse that label might be lazy or unorganized and infact forgotten to deal with several guys. But we all know that computers crash. Hard drives get wiped out. Life get confusing. And so on. In situation where yet another friendly direct reminder would do the thing, soiling the label name might not be necessay.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 06, 2010, 08:50:16 PM
So I think instead of online riddles, just e-mail to eachother and get it done.
Countless emails were exchanged over many months.
I've been through a divorce, psycho ex-wife, psycho ex-girlfriends, foreclosure on my house, roommate sticking me with 4 months rent while unemployed, laid off 3 times in 2 years, a year of unemployment, my fiancee getting laid off and unemployed for a year, doing contract work and not getting paid, sinking a couple grand into infrastructure into a shop that had to be closed in under a year, etc. etc. etc. This is all in the past 5 years. I know that life gets in the way sometimes. I couldn't imagine how hard it is with a kid involved.
But, hey, who cares. Might makes right. No future. Fuck the world. I guess in the politics of this piece of shit scene, the labels and people who fuck people over are the ones who we should respect the most.
-Ben
Quote from: Tommy Carlsson on February 06, 2010, 05:10:35 PM
Who is the Italian video guy? What has he done, and is this supposed to be common knowledge?
I also had the check the name, it was so long ago that ive forgot the rectums name. IMdP
I dont know if its common knowledge or what kind of a guy he is. but im out 30 euros or whatever it was.
http://chondriticsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=24138&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Quote from: catharticprocess on February 06, 2010, 04:27:14 PM
Why don't these artists get blackballed, especially as a reputation amasses for repeated ripping off of people?
Quote from: catharticprocess on February 06, 2010, 04:27:14 PM
this artist is highly collectible
Quote from: catharticprocess on February 06, 2010, 09:25:16 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 06, 2010, 08:50:16 PM
So I think instead of online riddles, just e-mail to eachother and get it done.
Countless emails were exchanged over many months.
So I guess then dropping name is the move to do, and not vaguely talk about "scandinavians" or "some label" what will put many others into doubt and not the case what is meant.
Not just about this, but in general, about the deadbeat labels:
I think, some things are pretty common knowledge in the "scene". At least the active members who've been around. It might feel like one feel urge to rant about why Chondritic Order is not here after 6 months waiting... but what one did expect?
It might not make it right, or make it acceptable, but I feel that it's pretty well known fact who are fast labels. Who are efficient labels. Who are slow, who have high quality, who have low quality. It might not be all that clear to those who don't read forums that are full of people experiences or people who haven't been around. But it does surprise me, that over and over and over again, certain labels are getting blame for being what they have ALWAYS been. About qualities they have ALWAYS had. Nobody says we have to take part of XXX labels comp. Or place order to XXX label. But despite all the warning sings everywhere, it still happens.
So as much as I would like to be critical about places that should be avoided, I think suitable would be remind that there are labels who have been around for dacades who handle things well and fast. With very limited amount of money everybody has, it might be worthwile to see where to spend it. Like hyped ltd 50 spray paint CDr you'll never get, or perhaps simply some good CD for 8$ what you'll have in your hands in 5 days?
To pay with paypal and pull back money if you don't get the goods. 1 month is already the time you should have your order, if not, then just pull back the money. Don't send trades in advance to labels with dubious reputation. You might not get the stuff, but at least you didn't lose yours. In my experience, very normal behavior in scene. Deadbeats have always been there, are there now, and will be there in future. I would say that in days of abundance when you simply can not get everything, you can make choise of trade and investment based on what is known to be easy, fast and reliable.
The irony of the situation is that I rather expected to read something about content of package I mailed out Ben this monday (together with parcels to amongst others Freak Animal). I intentionally waited until I had new LP to include to compensate long wait. According to postal service it should take between 4-6 days to US from Sweden.
Life can sure be fucked up, almost like an evil curse but what has been keeping me from ending it has been my obsessive soundwork and involvement in noise scene. It has been like driving force through hard times. Even if no people care about it, it gives purpose to our shitlives.
Concerning kids... for me things both got easier and more difficult when my son was born. It gave life new meaning and perspective, while on other hand also consuming all free time for the first year. It is also much harder to care about two lives instead of one. However, I really recommend it and think your son/daughter will have a great time growing up in Flagstaff!
And I can confirm that much that, yes, I have received my package from Styggelse. I have no problems.
It was general talk about labels who have reputation, including cases like mentioned DTM. I wonder who'd ever place order there? Guy is a rip off who cheats & bootlegs even bands of his own label and is so money hungry, you couldn't believe if stories were told. And its seems to me common knowledge. Everybody talks about it about everywhere. Perhaps the lure of few nice items on the label just makes people to send $.
I think I listed alternatives three times for DTM but none of the stuff was in stock. At last I got very unpolite answer, then nothing happened until I talked to some friends from Sundsvall that are supposed to release on his label (reading about Goatpenis adventures with DTM I think they are in for a thrill). Better late then never, though.
However, such a branding never goes away. Either you live with it and try to do best of out if to make things right, or you just leave the scene. I know from experience that it is consequently best alternative to provide wholesale batches of tapes through reliable mailorders like Segerhuva, RTB, Molehill, FA etc. instead of selling them one-by-one myself with risk of delays and complications.
Quote from: catharticprocess on February 06, 2010, 04:27:14 PM
Does anyone have suggestions on how to deal with a dead beat label, especially when the label and person who runs it has a lot of respect in the scene?
You name and shame them.
has anybody here evere been rippied off by dan ghetu, the Romanian guy behind the codreanu compilation some years ago?
I think he's the guy who ripped off most people and made more money out of it.
I just received a package from Kristian / Styggelse with the comp and many trade items. My particular issue is resolved.
But the purpose of the initial thread wasn't so much to resolve a particular issue as it was to see how people recommend responding in such situations. The consensus seems to be simply "expose the person publicly," and Mikko suggested (more or less) "everyone should know in advance what they're getting into and shouldn't be surprised."
I think both these responses leave something to be desired, but I don't have anything else to suggest, either. I think, ideally, it would be more akin to the "DIY ethics" thread on the CS/Troniks board, but it's rather obvious that this scene isn't about ethics, and is more about nihilism. So that ideal is just that - idealistic - and completely impractical. I think Mikko's response should be expanded: we shouldn't only expect labels with a reputation to be deadbeats, but we should expect that everyone in this scene to be selfish rip-off artists, because the ethos of this scene is to despise ethics. Self-destruction by design. Fuck the world.
-Ben
What we should do, is to realise underground is not THAT different real life. You got the people you get along, you got those who you don't. You got people you can associate yourself with, and those you don't. You got people who want to work together for common gain. You got those who will seek only to abuse for personal gain. You got the hardworking people with strong ethic how to do things. You got the lazy or people with too many problemas they can't function even if they theoretically wanted. This is the real world just like anything. And like in real world you struggle, involvement in ug, no matter how nice you would want it to be, shit happens.
I think yelling about all delays or all obstacles one experiences during his "career" is like old hags whining. If we see that there is person or label who's clearly calculated and intentionally repeatedly engaging into bullshit behavior, and they seek to profit or somehow gain by abusing the rest, I think that is worthwile to air public without any regrets. But something like couple lost cd's somewhere in the world, for who knows what reason.
It is of course nothing but repeating what I said and what was referred on previous message, but I'm sure Cathartic Process knew all the stories of Styggelse, but wanted to do it anyways. He also was constantly in touch with label knowing how things are. But still chose to go on multiple boards to complain about it. Something just doesn't sound quite right?
To me it sounds like placing now order to Chondritic, and in few months start spamming complaints about label being slow. Yeah, they might be accurate complaints, but I think bottom line is that most people in scene know how it goes. And due lure of "a must have object" in their mind, they will go for it. There are good releases and fast labels MORE than anyone can afford to "support". Of course one could praise ideal that scene must not have deadbeats and they must be exposed/smoked out. But how it corresponds with fact that same people who advocate this as ideal, are the ones who intentionally want to be associated & hang around with them? It's matter of choise. Can't get it all.
I think this topic could be closed down and future rip-off warnings to be done in topic with such name. With responsibility, so it doesn't just become shit throwing on people one personally doesn't like. And is done over clear cases of cheating and not by lost parcels of 3rd party etc.
Interesting "ethics" discussion. What one calls nihilism another calls life. I tend to fall into the latter camp, but only because I feel obliged to stand up for the more nihilistic/pessimistic/negative outlook.
If I've resigned myself that I've been brought into the world to be punished for the sin of existing with the torture of existing... am I, by voicing these sentiments, celebrating?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 10, 2010, 11:05:47 AM
I think this topic could be closed down and future rip-off warnings to be done in topic with such name. With responsibility, so it doesn't just become shit throwing on people one personally doesn't like. And is done over clear cases of cheating and not by lost parcels of 3rd party etc.
This is a terrible standard of Italian mail. In the late 90's the situation with Italian mail was SO bad that I have decided to quit releasing tapes since I have lost over 500 eu worth stuff between limited tapes and distros (back then it was quite a big sum considering my budgets).
Now things improved a bit, yet we still have one of the slowest services in the world.
how come postal services suck in the South? i hear similar horror-stories about Spain....
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 10, 2010, 11:05:47 AM
but I'm sure Cathartic Process knew all the stories of Styggelse, but wanted to do it anyways.
Actually, I never heard about it until several months after the comp came out. When I mentioned to people that I hadn't gotten my artist's copies yet, they asked me if I expected otherwise. I had no prior experience except many email and chat conversations with Kristian, and he was always a very cool guy with me. I knew of no one who had trades prior or other experiences other than mailorder, which wasn't bad. But after I was already in the situation, suddenly everyone was telling me this was routine business. I think it's ridiculous to expect everyone in the scene to be part of every message board gossip circle to know who is and who isn't trustworthy. The fact that they've been in the scene for long, running a label, a mailorder and doing gigs should be enough to trust them - if they're ripoffs and backstabbers, they should be blackballed out of existence. That is, if the scene is worth a piss.
-Ben
Well, I think many labels are known for things also outside the forum gossip. Since many of labels don't belong to any forums but know about it. I think Olsson had already "reputation" before styggelse, and even before survival unit, heh... Talking about "ancient history". But let the past be past when he clearly has shown attempts to make best of situation, corrected mistakes and made descions how spreading releases goes in future. Which all seem like good moves.
Some of my mistakes that are in metal scene, includes losing 50 cd's to label with bad repution. I knew it, but due couple successful deals decided to send my share in advance, and then, suddenly I do get replies, but only excuses. I get promises but nothing happens. Year and half later, I think I can blame only myself of not acting as it would have been necessary when knowing the reputation of the potential trade partner. Scenes are so small, and couple e-mails take so little time, in some cases I have simply asked people about their comments of certain place or person. Within noise, the lost stuff and money involves basically just people who left the scene and no longer to be reached and therefore no reason to even mention anymore.
Quote from: catharticprocess on February 10, 2010, 10:12:42 AM
The consensus seems to be simply "expose the person publicly," and Mikko suggested (more or less) "everyone should know in advance what they're getting into and shouldn't be surprised." I think both these responses leave something to be desired, but I don't have anything else to suggest, either. I think, ideally, it would be more akin to the "DIY ethics" thread on the CS/Troniks board, but it's rather obvious that this scene isn't about ethics, and is more about nihilism. So that ideal is just that - idealistic - and completely impractical. I think Mikko's response should be expanded: we shouldn't only expect labels with a reputation to be deadbeats, but we should expect that everyone in this scene to be selfish rip-off artists, because the ethos of this scene is to despise ethics. Self-destruction by design. Fuck the world.
So it's not just about one delayed package, it's about the whole "scene", whatever that is. Personally I've never related to any scene, I've tried looking at the individuals within, regardless of what scene they identify with or not, and tried to relate to them as individuals. Ethics rest with individuals; we can propose scene ethics as a decent guide, but it is idealistic to expect everyone to adhere to them, just as it's idealistic to expect everyone to adhere to one's own personal code of honour. For myself, I'd expect a simple, prompt reply to one's trades as a matter of course; but I've been caught out on that before and realise now that nothing is certain. I don't call that "nihilism", I call it a pity, but reality. The thing is, it goes to far when you tar everyone else with the same brush.
That's nihilistic.
I think that these folks who blatantly do not honor deals are far from the norm. I have been trading within this scene for close to 15 years and can count on one hand the times i have been blatantly fucked over. After trading quite literally several thousand items. Many times a slow trade partner, but hey, i have sometimes been slow when something came up. It happens. For the most part i don't think there should be any kind of discouragement. I think the instances are very few where someone intentionally screws another. Those odds lessened one-hundred fold with the departure of John Dixon/BaaL from the scene!
Quote from: niko penttinen on February 06, 2010, 09:26:13 PM
Quote from: Tommy Carlsson on February 06, 2010, 05:10:35 PM
Who is the Italian video guy? What has he done, and is this supposed to be common knowledge?
I also had the check the name, it was so long ago that ive forgot the rectums name. IMdP
I dont know if its common knowledge or what kind of a guy he is. but im out 30 euros or whatever it was.
http://chondriticsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=24138&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
I still think of this guy all along.
Was Marco Farina of Videomalattie V>L>F and IMdP
> all the dvds was sent 2 week ago.
> i travel a lot, i do a lot of things beside
> living on internet waiting to reply to email 2 seconds after received....at the time he was constantly on Myspace collecting "friends" and posting pictures of his newly acquired vintage cameras.
Classy guy.
Quote from: P-K on February 10, 2010, 03:49:50 PM
how come postal services suck in the South? i hear similar horror-stories about Spain....
sorry for OT, but this is something people keeps asking and not an excuse for being slow.
OT
In Italy disorganisation, privatisation that led external agencies to deliver packages (in my area drivers are 90% immigrants who can't speak Italian, and I am nott exagerating. My father got insulted several times because these morons were throwing packages on the ground as if there was nothing inside, ecc) and in certain periods of the year regular postmen go on holiday and they are replaced for one/three months by "seasonal" officers, usually young kids who get access to such responsibilit job throught temp. job agencies.
Two years ago Bloodlust sent me some stuff and package arrived two weeks later, completely open. Mark mentioned sending some pins. Package arrived open with pins and other stuff missing. Other packages were arriving 3/4 days later than what I have been expecting (and what the stamp said).
The day after receiving the package I decide to wait for the postman and ask for explanations.
The guy -a "indie-punk" looking fellow first says he wasn't the one delivering the mail, then I ask him who should I complain to and the creep immediately says "to not put him into trouble".
A few days later I go to the local club for a punk gig and he is there, drunk with his mates and sporting a bloodyminded pin alongside sex pistols and clash ones.
A few weeks later the guy got busted after somebody found some kilos of mail thrown in a field not too far from my place.
A few years ago the person in charge of a local post office was collecting stolen mail, he wasn't even opening it, just collecting. When the cops returned this 10 year work I got letters of people who were insulting me for never receiving stuff and previous letters with money in it.
I could go on for hours telling you how bad things were. As said, the main reason for me stopping soffitta macabra releasing tapes was because I had enough of loosing money thanks to goddamn post offices.
Now things are slightly improved (if you send), but as just said, there are times of the year where it is better to not send anything.
end of OT.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 06, 2010, 08:50:16 PMMost people tend to be vary on Breathing Problem [...]
Some of you may have missed this. Mr. Breathing Problem is "about to be homeless in Berlin" ~
http://board.vivalavinyl.org/thread/view/112346/&p=165
NOT WASHING A DISH?!?!
Laughing out loud :)))) that's freakin funny shit.
This was pretty amusing to revisit!