Couple relatively recent discussions brought me thoughts about collecting:
Quote from: Goat93 on February 04, 2012, 01:54:15 PM
That is the Main Problem of all Scenes who are Considering "Underground" Mentality. I don't think for Myself, that an "Original" Tape is "the real deal", cause i don't care about an 100% Original Collector Proof. The Tape is no Old Collector Coin with certificate for me. But for many People it seems more Important to have an "Original" for good Money instead of the Music itself. As Example it were no Problem to get Con Dom or Grey Wolves Tapes. They were released and dubbed in several Ways. Now all People hold their Tapes and want Insane Money Prices for the Tapes, cause is CVLT. Where is the Point to spend 30€ for a Grey Wolves Tape, which were dubbed Hundred Times 15 Years ago? I see not the Point in it. Same will all kind of Metal Demos. Old Death Metal Demos were Music to spread around. Not selling it on Ebay as "Real Deal" for Hundred Euros.
Quote from: Si Clark on January 15, 2012, 02:38:16 PM
Quote from: theotherjohn on January 15, 2012, 04:36:12 AM
Not sure if it's been mentioned before but Vinyl (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120454/) (2000) is mandatory viewing for everyone on this forum. Don't let IMDB's tagline "Alan Zweig investigates the wacky world of record collecting" put you off - this is scathing, depressing documentary film making that reveals as much about your own habits as it does the subjects interviewed. Watch it to get a glimpse of your own future (or maybe even the present?) if you're not careful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNRvB8lyRSM
God I hope I don't turn out like some of the people in this documentary. Thanks for the link though, very interesting film.
Vast majority of releases isn't worth much, and a lot of releases are only worth big bucks if you happen to find one of the very few obsessive fellow collectors in right time. Why release became valuable for owner, isn't all about music. And it should be very easy admit it shouldn't be. There are vast amount of other qualities why one would like to own some piece of creative work. Mentioned "real deal", meaning, that when someone wanted to buy Rolling Stones LP or Morbid Angel LP's, he probably wants the original. Why? Because the re-issues taken from flat remastered CD's, poor enlargements of artwork, non-existent mastering job for vinyl, crappy looking bar-codes and facebook links on the cover... you name it, and the original material has been fucked up. Re-issue can be same song, of course, but it ain't the real deal. It ain't how the material was at its best. Modern day "good sound" is such a unproven hypothesis, it has absolutely no value.
I recall when I bought the GRAVE pic LP box, just because I happen to like old Grave. Then, not only it is pic LP's, but all material is re-mastered into absolute peak level, ruining it totally. Artwork "improved" to modern supermarket standards, in other words: shit. I could not watch the box in my shelves, and really there was no point having it just because of couple ruined demo tracks. I had all the old vinyl anyways.
With noise, there isn't that many re-issues with ruined sound, I think? I recall few complaints from fellow noiseheads who were unhappy about for example Killer Bug tape re-issue 2xCD due compressed sound and supposedly added digital echo. I have no clear recollections of how original tapes sounded compared to CD, although I do have them all. Same was said about Genocide Organ "remember" CD re-issue, yet I had no complaints.
Anyways, there is another topic already for re-issues, so lets move on... Vinyl documentary indeed is quite brutal. I like the way it depicts the addicts and obsessive collectors, but also it's laughable existential crisis with bourgeois american dream really annoys sometimes. So, you don't have some cunt laying around, you don't have social life like sex & the city, who cares? It still brings good questions related to collecting noise.
I know handful of pretty die hard collectors. I knew people who collect all self released. Be it tape or CDR. Not to be listened, but simply collected. I know people who focus exclusively on LP or tape, and specific side of genre. There are also people who buy whatever. In that document, a lot of people - pretty much everybody - says they are not "collectors", but just music fans. That's the mantra everybody keeps telling themselves, but still to some degree, most have little collector mentality. What sets apart just being music fan, is the importance of format, edition, curation/focus on specific collections, not only just random good records. From some perspective it appears "nerdy" behavior. Yet I believe it goes beyond senseless cataloguing and hoarding.
When collection grows enough, it makes no sense for "listening". Therefore I personally have taken measures of first of all, getting rid of stuff I do not need or want, stuff what does not inspire me. I have started to get rid of CDR's for example. Simply due format. If same material was on CD or LP, I would perhaps keep it.
While my taste on music is always expanding, and knowledge of things increasing, to own "all", like some of those die hard junk hoarders had as goal, is first of all impossible and second of all useless. Therefore I just blatantly admit the habit of collecting, instead of ONLY "being fan of music", my choices in field of experimental/noise:
-Specific individual bands (too many to mention)
-Specific labels, where I have aimed or have the complete collections of their entire output or specific era (Tesco, Pure, Filth & Violence, GROSS, Xn, Praxis Dr. Bearmann, Come Org, etc...)
-Specific countries, where Finland obviously remains something where I hope to hear every piece of noise released here. Followed with countries in their specific moment in history. Lets say old UK PE, 80's/90's german industrial/pe, 80's/90's Japanese noise, contemporary Sweden, Denmark, etc.
-Specific genre / style (I tend to lean towards darker and sleazier, rather than goofy noise. I rather choose ambitious and focused with good sounds, instead of dopy jams and meaningless distortion or such)
-Specific formats (vinyl, cd and tape)
I'm not SO obsessive. I don't generally pay huge money. I don't generally collect things I don't like. I try to keep some sense in amount of stuff, but still, like in document, any time you talk with someone, you realize you're missing something ESSENTIAL. Something what could change your way to hear and see noise. Like knowing sakevi & jojo LP or German Shepards LP may have been 5 times the regular noise cd, but worth much more than that in listening pleasure. But to hear about these records in first place, happened in process of nerdy music talk with fellow collectors, hearing albums played in their house, and buying years later somewhere when opportunity appeared. I'm quite endlessly curious of great music and great sounds. And therefore also well "curated" collections and peoples motivations and experiences with them....
P.S. anyone willing to get rid of Merzbow Dadarottenvator LP, let me know! can trade for something neat a'la old null 1st LP, broken flag statement LP or such...
"facebook links on the cover..."
I remember getting a Mortuary Drape LP a couple years ago- the one with bone/skull ritual set-up on the cover. Fucking awesome, evil, etc. but on the back is the myspace url that just fucking ruins it.
I don't collect much anymore. The last record I bought that I had been on a mild search for was the OP Rechts LP. I've never put much effort into tracking things down; always figured I'd eventually come across a copy. It's very easy to find what you're looking for with the internet, it's just whether you can afford it. It use to be alot harder to find sellers/traders. I remember some German I traded 3-4 records plus cash to for a damn nice condition copy of "Neuengamme". Or trading Ultra "Youthful Pleasures" for a Whitehouse LP. Or buying a copy of "Statement"LP from Trevor Brown for $25 then trading my spare to someone (Mikko?)... Now, it's hard to trade over holding onto something because it may bring big $ to spend on something else (in my case, it's my mountain bike). Space is another thing; can't keep everything because you run out of room to store it all. Still enjoy trading but sometimes it is just easier to sell/buy. I recently made a collage for someone in trade for that recent Hospital Prod 2xtape comp...
Not sure any of that has anything to do with the topic as I only scanned it....
I get a kick out of people in the metal scene bitching about 'stamp collecting' in one thread, then in another, there's pics of their collections and the latest t-shirt or patch they've picked up.
At the moment i don't have money or space to buy as much stuff as i'd like to, but i admit that i find pleasure in the simple fact of owning some specific records and peeking at them on the shelf. I listen to them of course but more often than not i find myself simply looking at them, browsing booklet and nodding head in approval. My preference goes to vinyl and tapes.
I never spent too much money on a single record (i think never above 40 €) but i reckon that some might be worth it.
In the end it's a matter of personal satisfaction and mental wanking on details.
My personal fetishes: The Gerogerigegege/Vis A Vis items and 90s japanese noise - slowly but steadily growing collection.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on February 05, 2012, 09:32:58 PMon the back is the myspace url
A thing of the past now I think but THAT always had the seal of approved membership of the Musicians International Association of Sheep, Clowns and Fakes stamped all over it. It was the instant "do not associate with" voice on loop in the back of my head every time. Same for anyone who ever worked with Kenji Siratori. Some pales passed are just impossible to return from.
Quote from: theotherjohn on February 06, 2012, 10:30:54 PMJump to the present day though and I'm now trying to refocus my interests, cut down and get rid of much of this accumulated stuff. A lack of money has made me largely download or loan/borrow things I now desire instead of buying them. Physical media is largely considered obsolete and a nuisance, and so I'm replacing readily available stuff I don't really need or have easy access to with just the digital non-tangible counterparts (despite the tempting prices the fallen market is now offering these previously costly things at).
Agreed. My collection feels more like an albatross than something of pleasure and excitement. I know most don't find themselves feeling this way, but I continue to get closer to the music itself the more digital my collection becomes. A rebirth in ways. I only picked up forty-two new items in 2011, and a good thirty of those came from huge sales (Groundfault, for example). Might be my most "dry" year since high school, and it felt great. I'm still obsessed in ways with formats, like only listening
lossless 99% of the time. My listening and interests have experienced a great boom (for the most part)...until some of the wind is sucked from the sail when I look at all the boxes of stuff I'd love to sell but cannot find the energy to screw with listing on eBay, message boards, or on Discogs. I guess I'm waiting for that moment when I cannot deal with it any longer and I drive it all to someplace like Extreme Noise and tell them, "Take it all. Please. Do your best to make me a fair offer."
Quote from: Zeno Marx on February 07, 2012, 03:59:52 AMI look at all the boxes of stuff I'd love to sell but cannot find the energy to screw with listing on eBay, message boards, or on Discogs. I guess I'm waiting for that moment when I cannot deal with it any longer and I drive it all to someplace like Extreme Noise and tell them, "Take it all. Please. Do your best to make me a fair offer."
The prospect of making a bunch of money selling your physical collection doesn't hold any motivation for you? You could turn around and use that $$$ for other things, and surely you would bring in more going the eBay/Discogs route than selling it off as a whole collection to a brick & mortar store.
There's definitely a hoarder/OCD aspect to collecting. Perhaps you delay selling off your unwanted items because you feel like you'd be losing a part of your identity?
Quote from: RG on February 07, 2012, 05:34:58 AMThe prospect of making a bunch of money selling your physical collection doesn't hold any motivation for you?
The task is
that daunting. I'd love to have the freedom/space/money, but I'm well aware of how much time and energy it would require. I tried selling small groups at a time. Hasn't helped.
Quote from: RG on February 07, 2012, 05:34:58 AMPerhaps you delay selling off your unwanted items because you feel like you'd be losing a part of your identity?
I've sold off other collections in my time. In the past, I've found nothing but relief by doing so. I don't imagine this being different.
My collection comes from being involved with my interests for so long, not any ocd or obsessions. I think there's a huge difference in that & someone who feels he has to own every variety of whatever it is he's into. I've always sold off stuff or traded; I remember selling hardcore punk records to buy Japanese harsh noise records or metal LPs for PE/Noise or PE/Noise to buy a gun or books/records/tapes for bike parts... There's alot of records/tapes I'd have a hard time getting rid of and I never, ever want a collection of wav files. I like flipping through my boxes of records & pulling something out to listen I'd forgotten I had.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on February 07, 2012, 10:46:13 PM
My collection comes from being involved with my interests for so long, not any ocd or obsessions.
I imagine this being a completely foreign concept to many younger folk (Ys/Echoes/Millennials). The context of that sentence isn't in judgment (save that for another conversation). It creates such a strange world to folks like us. "I've known them forever." "went to grade school together?" "No, I've known them for a two years. Seems like forever." It doesn't end with the consumerism. Every relationship and association is quick-in, quick-out. For instance, already had a handful of music re-directions by the age of 20. I have to think that must make someone feel so incredibly disconnected from everything when there is no long-standing foundation. A history of starts and stops and not one continuum.
Quote from: Peterson on February 07, 2012, 11:07:27 PM
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on February 07, 2012, 10:46:13 PM
My collection comes from being involved with my interests for so long, not any ocd or obsessions. I think there's a huge difference in that & someone who feels he has to own every variety of whatever it is he's into. I've always sold off stuff or traded; I remember selling hardcore punk records to buy Japanese harsh noise records or metal LPs for PE/Noise or PE/Noise to buy a gun or books/records/tapes for bike parts... There's alot of records/tapes I'd have a hard time getting rid of and I never, ever want a collection of wav files. I like flipping through my boxes of records & pulling something out to listen I'd forgotten I had.
I would say that this is the REAL practice of collecting, at least in the sense of the underground. To treat everything as a potentially value-increasing cash cow the way which many Discogs and Ebay users do, is absolutely ridiculous. I can understand paying top dollar for something you need/love, and is OOP/hard to find, but just for the sake of archiving something in a collection which mostly is comprised of stuff you will only listen to once or twice is just stupid and pointless. For me, I don't drop a lot of dough on something unless I know it will be an important release for me. I don't buy anything unless I will listen to it at least a handful of times a year, otherwise I get rid of the shit I don't like as much. I can't stand the "I need release Y because of release X" mentality. I feel many people are more into the consumerist aspect and such moreso than the constant search for new, good sounds. Which is sad, but it makes me laugh at those participating, rather than feel jealous of the 1,000+ HNW CDrs they paid over $30 for.
It is really easy to get Tons of new Sounds or New Projects with Old Sounds sells as new. You can come to Hundrets of tapes/MP3 ect ect sells for nearly nothing. But it don't work, it seems. I tried a Test and burned a CD with nealry 70min of Music for some Friends and claimed thats a Copy from a new Sampler with lots of Big Bands. The Music were "Great" till "Good". But the real Artist as CDr or Tape this Guys would never buy, cause "they don't like the Music"...Strange....
It reminds me of this project published in Finnish 'zine in style of blind commentaries. In this case I saw, mr. Umpio played songs for mr. Sick Seed, with latter not knowing who he hears and therefore comments material with no cultural references attached. This approach allows you simply to listen the material and appreciate what is really is, not on basis who exactly made it.
I don't have so much "icon worship", and not only I tend to voice my opinion without hesitation, but I also can easily admit to myself which releases were good and which not really. Which grand masters of noise turned into worthless shit etc..
Some releases gets to hands of people for reasons of achievements. Lets say, it's much more likely that Hospital productions Viodre CD, described by label boss as "among top-10 noise cd of all times" will be bought and enjoyed by many simply because 1) hospital 2) bold statements. But really, it's ok, but it ain't THAT good.
And simply comparing to something like Edward Sol "Provocative Manner" tape on Quasi Pop, it is really underlined its not that good. Edward crushes the CD with all measures, yet being ltd 45 tape on Russian label, it will never be appreciated in wide scale. First of all, people will not be into trying to get it, because... Edward who?? I have no cultural references. I have no stories. I have no face to attach to music. There's just about nobody to tell this is worth getting. There is just about nobody distributing it. It will probably never be "valuable". It's very small edition, but I don't know if there is any "collector value" in it? I can really put the supposed "top-10" noise CD into context, when I have listened vast amount of material which allows to compare - to have perspective. And where is situation that I don't personally need material to be cool to get it. It simple reveals itself by standing out from past 20 tapes that should have been great, but were merely good, if not even bad.
Collecting obviously has the consumerist aspect. You start to cumulate more than you can honestly ever listen to. Lets say if you have 10000 items in collection. How many more you need? Would you ever be able to give decent playtime for majority? But for me, it is also like library. I don't need to listen everything all the time, but when I want, it's there. Within noise, I don't think I collect anything what I wouldn't listen. I hardly ever keep stuff what I think sucked, and I won't listen ever again.
Hardly any discographies I want to complete with releases I don't care for. I don't need for example complete Alchemy Records, since I most of all appreciate their noise. From rest, Angel In heavy syrup, Noodles, and couple others are enough. Rest I prefer to not have. From many old major names, I knew which album is THE END of my collection. This also fits the rest of music. Within music, there are few overall general lines I follow, but my collection of music is much smaller than "noise & related".
Most of stuff nothing utterly high priced, but it's just matter of long periods of time being in right place, right time, right connections. There are only handful records I actually paid top dollar, but kind of regret, since I would have gotten them for fraction of the price next year. But lessons learned. I have made some decisions about amount of space I have for "collection". When this space is not enough, something needs to go. Material isn't baggage to me, and I don't feel there's some "better life" waiting if I would just sell records away. It's exactly the kind of attitude present in that document. Miserable people thinking everything would be great if they get rid of this "bad habit". To me, it's not really even material. It's not like I cumulate garbage. It's carriers of creative human spirit in then. It is not stamp or coin in folder, trying to build some numeric series to keep mind occupied, but documents of creative force, like lighthouses blinking in some direction, luring me to investigate there. It's not just noise, but it suddenly takes routes to every direction of art, culture, sex, death, communication,..... blah... whatever ;)
If it fails, then it's nothing but physical record what can go. I don't need random plastic in my possession.
I don't think it is disputable that collecting does become habitual and has the potential to become a "bad" habit for some. It's like drinking or drugs or anything else that is a powerful motivator. It isn't inherently "bad", but it can become a burden and then bad. For those who recognize the habitualness and then acknowledge the vices that can entail, to rid themselves of that negative consequence can be part of a process to a better state of mind. In that way, it does indeed take on an aspect of being baggage. I hear this from avid collectors who love buying records and who have no intention of stopping. They feel no guilt or wrongness in collecting records, yet they do recognize it as habitual and sometimes a responsibility that they need to keep under control. Each perspective is a different representation of healthiness; or an attempt to become, or stay, healthy in their pursuits.
It's interesting to think about how a collection does eventually become an archive or library that is more about access and documentation than utility in the more obvious, traditional definition. It's still utilitarian, but it morphs into a more complex idea of it. At what point does that happen? At the point of epiphany? That arbitrary moment when a collector rarely goes back and listens to the older part of the collection? When the practical becomes more theoretical? I'm led to believe it is inevitable in the process of the endeavor, but I'm also limited to my own experience in the process of collecting various things. I'm curious to hear what other people think about this part of their development. Has it changed for them? If so, when? If not, do they foresee it changing? etc.
I have literally thousands of live recordings. I've listened to 90% of them at least once, but listening was never the sole intent. I want access to them for the many historical perspectives they can enlighten. It's raw information and energy that offers great potential; potential in perspectives I might not even recognize yet. Study. Research. Associations. I've always been drawn to the idea of library and archives. For myself, it is one of my biggest conflicts, that of being innately minimalist and intuitively collectorist (or maybe the other way around).
QuoteAnd simply comparing to something like Edward Sol "Provocative Manner" tape on Quasi Pop, it is really underlined its not that good. Edward crushes the CD with all measures, yet being ltd 45 tape on Russian label, it will never be appreciated in wide scale. First of all, people will not be into trying to get it, because... Edward who?? I have no cultural references. I have no stories. I have no face to attach to music. There's just about nobody to tell this is worth getting. There is just about nobody distributing it. It will probably never be "valuable". It's very small edition, but I don't know if there is any "collector value" in it?
That's a very good point, very true and sad. I often wonder about how much good stuff I'll never know (and neither will 99% of people into this music) because of what is outlined above. On one hand, there are "big" and well known names who in many cases are rightly expected to deliver quality with their new releases, so it's justified people buy their stuff (although there has to be healthy criticism where it's due), but on the other hand there are new and upcoming names who will probably never get a quality release and distribution that a well known name gets. There are labels that put out quality releases but who only release big names, and I don't think this is healthy.
I guess if you're a distributor or have friends who are, then you're more likely to hear low-profile stuff, but otherwise it's hard to get to know such names, especially if your budget is limited and you don't like risking spending on something you might not like at all.
QuoteIt's interesting to think about how a collection does eventually become an archive or library that is more about access and documentation than utility in the more obvious, traditional definition. It's still utilitarian, but it morphs into a more complex idea of it. At what point does that happen? At the point of epiphany? That arbitrary moment when a collector rarely goes back and listens to the older part of the collection? When the practical becomes more theoretical?
I have a friend who's a serious collector: around 3000 CDs and maybe 1000 vinyls and it's fair to say he's an obsessed collector. He buys way more than he can listen to. He has a weekly 2-hour radio program where he presents new music and this is actually his excuse for collecting: that he doesn't do it only for himself. I guess this is a valid point, but I think at the end of the day if he were to calculate how much of his collection he's presented in the radio, the percentage wouldn't be as high as to justify such obsessive collecting (he actually has financial troubles due to his obsession). However, when I met him 12 years ago and we became friends, I was looking for new kinds of music and his collection served as a library and was immensely helpful. Over the years a small group of friends emerged (around 5 people) who all have been using his collection as a library (in the meantime, I've moved to a different country so I'm no longer part of this group). In this sense, his collection does fulfil a purpose beyond that of personal obsession.
I myself have a collection of "only" several hundred CDs, but it's a growing one and I don't see myself stopping anytime soon. However, already this size is too large to be able to regularly listen to everything (especially since my girlfriend doesn't like 98% of my collection) and this makes me think from time to time whether it's worth going on? In addition, I don't have friends in my new(ish) country who like the same kind of music, so my collection doesn't serve a "library" purpose -- something that I'm quite sad about.
I'm in a somewhat similar position as the poster above in that I'm pretty much solitarily expanding and discovering my own "library" (around 500 titles I'd guess, I actually just started cataloging them a few days ago), meaning that the people close to me aren't really into the records I possess, including girlfriend. So there's no social perspective in the use of the library really. But I don't mind that at all, it's a vault of my own and it brings pleasure to explore it and, like said earlier in this thread, know that if I want to hear something, it is there ready whenever I want.
I think the Problem within the Collecting without being a Library Collector is this Feeling, that the Stuff will be Heared in some time. Realised it this Week when i sorted out Stuff for Trade/Sell, since i'm not lomger interested in it. At the Beginning i thought that will be much stuff, in the End it wasn't compared to that, was left. Crazy at all :/
i am very obsessive collector, from hunting the releases to keep them catalogued and maniacally handle/stored.
"Music" and packaging are first factors which determinate if something will be collected or less. I love the good packagings, i think they complete the sound. I love to look at my shelves and to crazy stuffs i have hang in my room like throphies. Anyway if i don't like the sound it's very hard i keep the release.
I prefer tapes and vinyls but i have no problem collecting also CD and CDr's.
Criteria i follow:
- specific artists
- specific labels (Self Abuse, MSNP, GROSS, Vanilla, Freak Animal, Tesco, Praxis Dr. Bearmann, Bloodlust!, Broken Flag, Alchemy Records, Slaughter Prod, Xn, MSBR Records, AMP, Less Than Zero, Come Org, Lust Vessel and many more!)
- specific countries (Japan and USA 90's harsh noise. 80's/90's UK Power Electronics, 80's/90's italian and german Industrial Noise)
- specific genre/style (most violent and harshest sides of noise and power electronics)
Lately i buy less than in the past, probably because most of the stuffs i wanted are sitting here. I try to keep only very selected material in my collection for several reasons.
There are many reasons for collector behavior from just the appreciation of the art and sometimes nostalgia to pride of ownership and recognition by fellow collectors. I fit into a little of both of those camps. I appreciate the art a lot but it also comes with a certain pride when I get to show my collection to others interested in it. Then there is the actual act or process of listing your trades/wants, the act of trading itself, mailing stuff out and receiving new "pieces" which is one of the best parts of being a collector, in my opinion. Receiving something new, finishing a good trade comes with a sense of satisfaction. Music (especially Noise/PE/Industrial) is an "open-ended" type of thing too, it is probably never going to end so you will probably never be "done" with your overall collection altogether (maybe bands and labels but the collection in its entirety), which is something else I like about collecting Noise.
I don't know the psychology behind it and I don't know if I really care. I did read once that collecting stems from our ancestors need to forage and collect materials for survival and when a culture or group of people stop migrating and become settled they still feel a need to do that.
As far as my tastes are concerned I have pretty much stayed the same since I first got into Noise and Power Electronics. I aim for a few certain labels (Come Org, Aquilifer Sodality, TF/PE, Filth & Violence, FA/IOPS and a few newer ones like PI, White Centipede, Anabolic Dimensions, Waterpower and Bleak Environment) and also a certain style/aesthetic of both sound and presentation. The last year or so I have been really into collecting certain types of Zines and books, even catalogs from old XXX companies like Slave & Master. I do have a few things in my collection that I do not like but that comes with being a reviewer/interviewing and having people send me stuff constantly.
Another thing I've been pondering is some people's compulsion to collect every version of a particular record / or of the whole discography of a certain band. Being an utmost completionist, getting the album in every format possible. To me, this sounds useless. How I perceive my collection is that the main idea indeed is the ability to listen to whatever I want, the records are always there. I've done it once, collecting everything from a particular band that is, but some time later realized that it would be an almost incessant task to keep up with all re-releases and shit, and that in the end the satisfaction of a "complete" collection wouldn't be sufficient in the light of the money and effort spent.
The only format I've had my Graveland collection on is tape, which I've admittedly come to regret. Not because of the format itself, but due to the poor quality of some of the releases. Poor dubbing or lack of (IMO) necessary artwork or lyrics. At this point I've come to think of buying them all on a different format, perhaps CD, and I'd still keep the tapes for old time's sake. In this situation I understand collecting the same releases in different formats, but if there's nothing wrong with the, say, tapes (and their characteristic lacks of functionality which is up to everyone's personal taste & customs), I see no point in getting different versions. I.e. a new album comes out on four different LP colours, and you feel it's mandatory to get them all, or a new album comes out on CD & LP and you just have to get the CD along with the vinyl although you'll only listen to the latter.
Hard to Explain why Buying different Editions is great sometimes. It was somekind of Fun and Hunter Thing to get Rare Versions of it. Sometimes the Coverartwork are different or there are Lyrics/No Lyrics, some Extras or or or. Other Point, when you get them Cheap.
But i see no Sense in this 1"0+ Colour Editions Lim. 100 each one" Stuff or this new "My Label have a Special Colour" Editions. But its a good Point to realise that the Differences are for Choosing, what you like most, as i do. Don't buy for example 4 different Impaled Nazarene 7" Edition, choose the one you like most.
To Buy all from on Band is like Collecting Stamps, can be Fun but depends on the Band. I think merzbow, Nunslaughter or Sabbat are not a good Deal to begin a Collection...
Quote from: Vehemency on February 20, 2012, 12:12:35 PM
Another thing I've been pondering is some people's compulsion to collect every version of a particular record
Southern Lord has done quite well with these types. Interesting financial security for the labels that have customers who buy every color and every reissue. Hydrahead collectors come to mind as well.
Not that those labels care, but I think most of those 10+ color vinyl editions draw in more eBay/discogs speculators rather than obsessive completists. Of course the record flippers buy them up to hopefully sell later to collectors at inflated prices, but surely the former outnumbers the latter.
To a lesser extent I've also noticed this with certain underground extreme metal labels and their "DIE HARD" vinyl editions that come with a patch and some other useless crap.
^ I'm somewhat annoyed with releases that can not be obtained without a patch or something as unnecessary as that. It happens too. Like just recently I was about the preorder the upcoming Mars Volta (you heard right, in fact a lot of Rodriguez-Lopez's solo work could appeal to noise fanatics!) only to realize that you either have to get a 50 dollar set with a t-shirt and a special lithograph, or a "regular" 30 dollar set of CD + t-shirt. No option to order the CD only, ha. Got to wait until it hits retail stores.
In those cases it is basically pure materialism.
As I have mentioned before, I don't consider "records" as material, but carrier of spirit. It's unfortunate that so called "underground", which used to be less capitalist, less business oriented, is often nowadays MORE of that than the mainstream. You see it's pure material what matters. Color vinyl, poster, patch, etc. and you ask "why?". What does this add to album, other than physical object? Especially in some genres, the additional crap is really just crap. I wouldn't mind maximum amount of posters and inserts with LP if it was like Apostles or Crass or something. But it's really usually stretched pixelated album covers and booklets with photos of clown retards and exaggerated font sizes to fill the space. Patches nobody wears and stickers nobody uses.
When material has no real purpose, other than "lure consumer" or give additional income, it is nothing but 100% BS. If such resources and energy would be spent on having for example good artwork (or not spent at all = perhaps reduced price!), it would be great.
I tend to value most the spirit - which means being closer to source/creator. If not REALLY being there, but at least in my own impression. Therefore, shiny bulk edition digipak will never have the same "value" to me, as something that has more touch of creator(s). Be it label or artist. And I suspect this is quite common, judging by fact how many people miss innovations of early Tesco for example. It is not just "record". It goes way beyond.
So, Francisco LOPEZ had right about his releases. No photos, no titles, only pure music - medium of spirit. Where is located a border between useless gadgets, unique packages from leather, concrete, wood, metal, textile and so on and necessary info, graphics? Does music of Les Joyaux de la Princesse still so much enjoy some people without packages, objects, graphics? Maybe this is so called overgrowth of form upon meaning? Maybe MP3, MY SPACES, MUSIC BLOGS are appropriate way of relation between artist-receiver? No middlemen, no stupid labels, no physical mediums, no printed goods and so on?
Anyway, I don't see problem with ultra limited C-2 cassettes, records with addded badges, stickers, chains, excrements, stupid photos and so on. If people like it and buy it, why not?
Quote from: RG on February 21, 2012, 07:06:38 AM
Not that those labels care, but I think most of those 10+ color vinyl editions draw in more eBay/discogs speculators rather than obsessive completists. Of course the record flippers buy them up to hopefully sell later to collectors at inflated prices, but surely the former outnumbers the latter.
To a lesser extent I've also noticed this with certain underground extreme metal labels and their "DIE HARD" vinyl editions that come with a patch and some other useless crap.
Denovali Records from Germany make Lim. XXX several Editions and when they are Sold out, next Batch of Lim. Editions will come. I think its nice, since the Lp's are good and you can choose, what you prefer. Colourtype or Picture Vinyl ect ect. For Collectors it must be a Nightmare.
QuoteIf such resources and energy would be spent on having for example good artwork (or not spent at all = perhaps reduced price!), it would be great.
Some Die Hards come with Extra Music, as 7" or even whole LP's. I think this Variation is nice, but i have also Tons of Stickers/Patches/Posters i don't need. Its somekind of Idiotic in my Eyes that so Many Collectors (or Buyer in Generell) claim that Black Vinyl Sounds best and Buy any Kind of Colour Editions. I have seen only a Few LP's were the Black Vinyl is not the Common, instead the Limited "Die Hard" Edition. For Someone, who likes Colour/Picture more than Standart Black its just better. I don't care about the Limitiation, but i like Colour/Picture much more than Standart Black. So i'll buy the Version i like most...
QuoteSo, Francisco LOPEZ had right about his releases. No photos, no titles, only pure music - medium of spirit. Where is located a border between useless gadgets, unique packages from leather, concrete, wood, metal, textile and so on and necessary info, graphics?
This is not My Taste. I must have Information about the Release, the Intention, the Attitude ect. A plain Tap with just Music on it makes it shrunk to the Music alone. When you have 1 or 2 of those, is interesting, but if you have 2000 or more Tapes without Meaning and just Music, its Useless for me. Its not just the Music itself what makes the "Spirit". Its also the Intention WHY it is made and What it should Say.. Imagine a Bunch of Blank Grey Wolves Tapes. You can easily change them with a Bunch of Blank Con Dom Tapes. But for what are these Tapes then, if you can change them so easily?
Quote from: Goat93 on February 21, 2012, 06:15:18 PM
QuoteSo, Francisco LOPEZ had right about his releases. No photos, no titles, only pure music - medium of spirit. Where is located a border between useless gadgets, unique packages from leather, concrete, wood, metal, textile and so on and necessary info, graphics?
This is not My Taste. I must have Information about the Release, the Intention, the Attitude ect. A plain Tap with just Music on it makes it shrunk to the Music alone. When you have 1 or 2 of those, is interesting, but if you have 2000 or more Tapes without Meaning and just Music, its Useless for me. Its not just the Music itself what makes the "Spirit". Its also the Intention WHY it is made and What it should Say.. Imagine a Bunch of Blank Grey Wolves Tapes. You can easily change them with a Bunch of Blank Con Dom Tapes. But for what are these Tapes then, if you can change them so easily?
It was irony.
Well, like there is a difference between chinese plastic toy and artists sculpture, there is difference between material.
Something is piece of art, something is piece of commercial business strategy. Which exists in sole purpose of selling product.
Like mentioned Impaled Nazarene re-issue 7"s. Label did 4 different 7"s with 4 different colors each. They know "die hard collectors" will buy 16 copies instead of 4. It is pure scam of worst materialistic nature, in my opinion ridiculing the essence of black metal. Same doesn't happen so much within noise, but perhaps merely because there is no market? But perhaps also because different aesthetics apply within those "artforms" if you allow me to use such term.
In this case, spirit doesn't doesn't exclude physical material. It's about reasons and motivations. This is the difference of real art and consumer products.
I think, cause there is no Market. The Metal Idiotic Collector Story is only, cause the People buy it. Metal Bands sells like Pop Bands and are also in the Charts, the Customers dreams with this about "being Underground" in the same Time. How can Black Metal be Underground, when the Bands sells more like Brintey Spears and others?
btw.:
This Kind of Artwork under the CD looks awesome. Think such would be a nice "Special" on some CD's :)
(http://s.dsimg.com/image/R-2594730-1292275388.jpeg)
Quote from: Goat93 on February 21, 2012, 06:15:18 PM
For Someone, who likes Colour/Picture more than Standart Black its just better. I don't care about the Limitiation, but i like Colour/Picture much more than Standart Black. So i'll buy the Version i like most.
It's unfortunate that there is an option at all.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 21, 2012, 07:34:14 PM
Well, like there is a difference between chinese plastic toy and artists sculpture, there is difference between material.
Something is piece of art, something is piece of commercial business strategy. Which exists in sole purpose of selling product.
I agree with you but we must be honest with ourself. We are all piece of commercial business strategy. For exemple you use some place, in your magazine, where artists/owners of labels can advertise their products... and I sent to somewhere/somebody some records from my label to interview (it was my fault and will not happen in the future)....
I fuck Impaled Nazarene or The HAFLER TRIO or ORGANUM items if they want to sell it only for collectors. This is their business if they want to be hermetic.... This is their choice. Anyway I will not able to listen all valuable records in my life, so if not ORGANUM 7" EP ( for example this one: http://www.discogs.com/Organum-Arc/release/119828) for over 130 Eu, I will listen hundreds other, this same value or even better ....
But again, it's not matter of who sells, what price, etc. but the motivation and aim.
You know, there is capitalism & consumerism in its prime materialistic sense, where you create shit people don't need to get their money. You make cheap, fake, short lasting, crappy product, which you can sell over and over and over again. You try to maximize profit by scam-like methods. It operates by simple rules of capitalism. Create profit by any means necessary. In music business, it sadly ain't based on anything very positive. Additional value is found in materialism, not in actual content. Where sellingpoint may be "digipak". Not what is in & on the digipak. Sellingpoint may be 2 posters, regardless what is in the posters.
As opposite, you create piece of work, which has value other than mere material. It captures creators spirit. His vital creativity, his ideas, his identity. The is more love sacrificed on piece of art what you can justify by any financial calculation. It's timeless, long lasting, strong piece of work. It doesn't need some pop culture bogus gimmicks. It simply rejects them. Do we all live under the rules of capitalist & consumerist
Of course, it is a choice. Do you get mass market items manufactured somewhere. Do you apply your own craftmanship and energy. Do you sell at XX price or XX price. And so on.
But there is no way saying "its all the same". It is not the same. There is difference with "consumer" and "art lover" and there is difference in the objects they value.
As "collector", I don't value so much consumerist crap. I value other things. It's also a spiritual and political choice.
I like collectors. Something about being fanatic for something I don't understand is interesting.
Watched a show the other night about a guy who tracks down rare toys to sell. He found a Star Wars prototype that was never produced b/c of safety regulations; he sold it for $17,000.
I like colored vinyl too. And the more options, the better.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on February 07, 2012, 06:32:54 AM
Quote from: RG on February 07, 2012, 05:34:58 AMThe prospect of making a bunch of money selling your physical collection doesn't hold any motivation for you?
The task is that daunting. I'd love to have the freedom/space/money, but I'm well aware of how much time and energy it would require. I tried selling small groups at a time. Hasn't helped.
This is exactly how I feel. Yet I buy more stuff all the time...! Seems there's just so much good stuff out there, good new releases, good reissues of old stuff...
One thing I've been thinking about lately is what I'd simply call greed in all this; band XY will release a ltd edition on label YX and you know it'll fetch x100 on ebay next week as it'll sell out in a day. If you buy it, do you actually take the time and flip it? Or do you just put it in your collection & wait for it to become even more expensive? With today's shelf life, some of the stuff peaks for a week or two, then goes to simply being a used 5$ record. Great example: Wolf eyes/American tapes. For a while you could sell their CDRs for insane $$$, I don't think anyone wants that stuff anymore?
Thats the Collector/Ebay Madness- You can't have the Time to listen to all in a While. So most will listen 1x and then throw it away. In the Past i heard some Stuff 100x, but it is now more that i listen to it several Times and then listen to something other, so it turns more and more to "just easy listenting Music" than to be get into it :/
Other Example is Demo Tapes. Now Sellers try to get much Money for every Kind of tape. Even the Recycling Tapes from RRR are sold Expenisve from Time to Time