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Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2012, 04:34:37 AM
1) Do you believe industrial music is an art form that ANYONE, especially the musically talentless, can contribute to if they want to? That's one of the myths that originally drew me to it, often alluded to in the early interviews of Throbbing Gristle, but I'm not sure I believe it now. Maybe some people are naturally inclined to be capable industrial musicians, and some people aren't. I'm not sure if by giving up I'm being more honest or lazy.
I think it's a great way of someone who might be musically talentless to learn a lot about sound and how to refine it into something worthwhile. I have no traditional musical skills, and have only been making noise for 3 years or so, but I'd say definitely now know a lot more about sound manipulation than someone who doesn't make any kind of music at all.
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2012, 04:34:37 AM2) Do you believe that people not making their own sounds should just fuck off?
Absolutely not, if you're a sincere fan and supporter of the music then you're an essential part of it. No point making music just to fit in if it doesn't feel right.
If I might play armchair psychologist for a bit - I think you might be a tad over concerned about things like "social status" and how other people may perceive you if you're not actually making any music yourself. If, as you write, you are not motivated to record anything, that's totally your business. Maybe one day you will, maybe you wont - it's not a disaster either way.
Your second question, in particular, indicates how frustrated you are at being perceived as not included in some kind of scene, but seriously, what does that matter? If you're in a room where you're the only one not recording anything, so what? Has anyone really confronted you directly about it? The quote you give doesn't indicate that anyone not recording should "just fuck off", it's just one person's view of the scene he's involved in - you can be critical, but it's still just one person's opinion.
If you don't feel up to recording, just don't do it and try not to make it such a central concern. If anyone is going to get worried about you because you're not putting out some "limited edition" C-08 tape or something, you can tell them to just fuck off. Personally, I'd prefer people be honest and just admit they couldn't be bothered, or can't do it, than clog things up with their half-arsed attempts to be part of the "social status".
To throw my hat into the ring as the interviewer here:
Active listening is a relative term i think. The fact that you've voraciously supported industrial music and culture for 25 years is activity enough. Knowing Sean personally - and being the interviewer in this article -, I hardly imagine he'd turn down the support of someone who avidly supports the scene - even one who only listens. I think he's trying to allude to the fact that you can use "indie" culture as consumerist fashion statement that's approved by the mainstream (indie becoming the monoculture, being "safe" but still "underground").
Industrial in many ways doesn't allow for this kind of passive experience - fans have to put in a great deal of effort to explore, communicate and read about the music they enjoy and don't simply have the luxury of having their tastes dictated to them in a way that is so easy and accessible. There are barriers to entry - supply, format, sonic or content aesthetics - that prevent passive listening.
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2012, 05:25:41 AMWhat bothers me is that I see myself as worthless because I don't produce anything, and I wanted to ask if I was being reasonable in thinking that.
To be blunt, no, and your feelings where pretty well established with your first post. To see yourself as worthless in
any regards is never reasonable, and demands a bit more personal inquiry than regarding one's status in any music scene.
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2012, 05:25:41 AM(It really amazes me how much self-loathing and mental illness gets expressed in the lyrics of some music- how do these people ever feel confident enough to produce/release anything???)
It has been discussed here before that expressing ideas and concepts in music is not the same thing as actually holding/acting upon those ideas and concepts in life. Also, people have varying degrees of self confidence to achieve, or not achieve, things they want to do. And also, some people are just so damn driven to express their feelings they just have to do it anyway.
The world artist can be applied to two categories of people:
1/ an individual/group that creates culturally valuable artifacts via different medium that leave and becomes eternal through it. (futurism, rationalism, some pop art, etc.)
2/ an individual/group that creates artifacts that are marketable in a highly capitalistic environment made of galleries, lobbies, think tanks, critics, and (god bless them) rich farts that spend their money in artworks that are not necessarily culturally valuable.
I am all for the first one - not referring to myself of course - although I do not blame the second category, yet I despise who refer to himself as such.
There are example of industrial music that can be described as art, especially in the beginning when somehow it was criticising the system but somehow referred as target to many aspects of that, including art galleries. Or the fact that industrial music often goes along with installation and other artistic output. But definitely I think it all depends on all the individuals involved.
I myself do not consider an artist AT ALL. I make my living with something else and I do not think I am influencing changes.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 27, 2012, 06:11:49 AM
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Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2012, 05:25:41 AM(It really amazes me how much self-loathing and mental illness gets expressed in the lyrics of some music- how do these people ever feel confident enough to produce/release anything???)
It has been discussed here before that expressing ideas and concepts in music is not the same thing as actually holding/acting upon those ideas and concepts in life. Also, people have varying degrees of self confidence to achieve, or not achieve, things they want to do. And also, some people are just so damn driven to express their feelings they just have to do it anyway.
If somebody creates lyrics with serial killers topics it doesn't mean that this artist must kill in reality to prove his authenticity. But. His authenticity is questionable when he expresses mainstream values in ordinary life, when he feels very good amongst so called normal people, parents, who wants to co-create society structures, who is condemning every murder, acts of terror from real life without willing to understand motives, and so on.
It's known that in art all things are redrawing by artists but those things should describe TRUE soul of artist, his real views and real relation to environment.
Quote from: crumer on June 27, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
"I do noise so I am your brother" died a long time ago.
THANK GOD FOR THAT!
Quote from: tiny_tove on June 27, 2012, 09:42:46 AM
I myself do not consider an artist AT ALL.
Usually people think about artist as person who completed art colleges, who co-creates mainstream values, in art and in society. And I understand your and other underground "artists" who don't want to belong to this phenomena. But you are still so called artist because you create something what influences to other people, what initiates feelings and changes (for better, I hope, whatever it could mean) mentality of receivers. You use musical and no-musical tools, some rules, cultural contexts, and, what is the most important, you want to say something to other people using not traditional, abstract language, so called ART.
Usually people think about artist as person who completed art colleges, who is co-creates mainstream values, in art and in society.
This could fit in both the categories I have mentioned.
there are people I consider "artists" who have academic background and that are into noise in the most sincere way (I think of IRM or Nico Vascellari).
Quote from: tiny_tove on June 27, 2012, 10:24:59 AM
Usually people think about artist as person who completed art colleges, who is co-creates mainstream values, in art and in society.
This could fit in both the categories I have mentioned.
there are people I consider "artists" who have academic background and that are into noise in the most sincere way (I think of IRM or Nico Vascellari).
Exactly. Some of them completed art schools and changed circles, or there are some underground musicians who didn't finish any art schools but they connected with academic/mainstream art circles.
I don't see a reason why it would be a bad thing not to release or make your own music.
I do work on stuff, but on a rather irregular basis and nothing I made so far has spread wide, so is that better than not making music at all? I don't know.
And I don't have any education in instruments or much knowledge of music theory at all. But when I started listening to ambient and later to pe/noise I started listening more to sounds. So I enjoy creating and working with some sounds of my own and sometimes I'm not happy with the result, then I rework it until I'm happy with it. And that's totally unattached whether other people like it or not. I might even say more: I don't know whether the fact that not many people heard my stuff up to now is due to it not being very good or the fact that I'm hardly in contact with many people interested in the same stuff as me and I can't be bothered with doing much 'promotion' for it online...
Anyway, just saying that not making your own music is a perfectly fine decision and that when making music, you can ask yourself when you have really contributed something? Is it good enough if you like it yourself and you give it to 5 other people or do you have to have a label release your stuff? In that way I think it only depends on what you yourself are satisfied with.
There are an infinite number of ways to be creative, expressive, and to free it to elsewhere.
I don't make music either and never will. I don't feel I would be good at it and I'm sure if I tried, it would feel forced and unnatural. I do believe one must have talent to create any kind of music, so not anyone can do it (by this I mean not anyone can make GOOD music, whatever kind it is). I've never felt "less" in any way because I don't play music -- heck, I don't even have friends who like the same kind of music as I do. However, the joy I get out of listening to experimental music, the collecting, the discovery of new music, reading the SI forum etc. is where the pleasures of being a music fan lay for me. I don't feel the need to create music myself; there are enough people out there who have the talent to do so and there is certainly more good music out there than I will ever get to hear.
I can only hope you'll also be able to enjoy being "only" a listener for what it is and not feel you need to be more!
Briefly, I'd like here to make a comment to Brad's inquiry.
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2012, 04:34:37 AM
The majority of regular industrial/noise forum posters, it seems, are involved in making their own sounds. Perhaps not always as "known" artists, but at least in a hobby capacity. I am not. In 25 years of life, I have not demonstrated the slightest motivation, knowledge or ability to create anything resembling a presentable recording. And this is not another thread where I pathetically beg you all to tell me how to get there, because I know at this point in my life, after years of wanting it and doing nothing, it is not realistically going to happen! I've decided to fully admit that I am not a participating member of this music scene, and never will be. I suck. Two questions:
1) Do you believe industrial music is an art form that ANYONE, especially the musically talentless, can contribute to if they want to? That's one of the myths that originally drew me to it, often alluded to in the early interviews of Throbbing Gristle, but I'm not sure I believe it now. Maybe some people are naturally inclined to be capable industrial musicians, and some people aren't. I'm not sure if by giving up I'm being more honest or lazy.
2) Do you believe that people not making their own sounds should just fuck off? In Special Interests #7, Sean Ragon (Cult of Youth) was quoted:
QuoteIn the underground, everyone in the room is an active participant, and their level of involvement dictates their social status. In the indie world, the room is full of consumers who are judged by the rules of straight society. They are ranked by their money, their looks, and who they know. The inaccessibility of the artist, however, always triumphs and "backstage access" is the ultimate fetish. The fans are there to be entertained by a band that maintains a safe distance from them and therefore creates the illusion that they are "important." Sometimes they create an environment that mimics something that exists in the underground, but it is inherently false, and it is little more than cultural tourism...
So as someone with zero social status in underground music, do I even deserve to be listening to it? (For the record, I've never listened to a single song by Cult of Youth, and maybe he wouldn't want me to.) I've wasted so much time being nearly obsessed with a genre and subculture that I can make no positive contribution to, and that is depressing. Maybe I should just get out, and sell all my records to someone who is worthy of owning them.
This thread is a potential minefield to thread into ...
see it have gotten quite the clicks, but few postings. This, in it self, should state both the curiosities and complexities connected to developing creative works- both theoretically and in praxis. I for one have no recipe, but I recognize there are a few things that affect and decide in how one approach and develop own projects. Mainly this connects to- and are governed by life in general. This post should be understood in this context, not as a direct suggestion or guideline for anybody.
I find that one's personal background and daily existence are the main deciding source in all facets of life. I don't want to elaborate too much on this, just state a fact. I am sure if everybody take 15 minutes to brood about ones overall existence, a fairly decent map of ones personal history and situation will be produced: Probably pleasant and unpleasant in tone. Point being: one should in all honesty understand own history and current situation, both subjectively- and objectively, as a fundament for who one is- and this as a factor for the general output in life. Creative work is a lengthening and expression of ourselves (one could stretch this notion into indirectly include our surroundings, history and the present as well). Alas, one can understand own artistic output as a reflection of oneself and where one come from.
Seeing ones life from a mountain top so to speak, it is possible to hone themes to be used in own artistic projects. As well as paying attention to topic, one should always try to be conscious about how one executes (method) a work- as well as the packaging (presentation) of it. At best, a correlation between the three: Topic, method and presentation are the best. Do like John Wayne: Walk like you talk, no perfume. This, in general and very short, is the platform to work from as I see it. Furthermore, engaging in an any activity demands a degree of experience. Though personally, I feel initiative and attitude to be far more important ingredients. One can understand and learn basically anything if one invest time and effort into it. To my knowledge one comes to a point when considering something. If one is invested and feels inclined to do it, I think one should take oneself seriously and react upon it. Proceed from scratch. Start w the resources available. Serious equipment is not needed. Everybody has to start somewhere. I am positive that there are people having similar concepts/ideas of stuff they want to do. Ask friends and be open to like-minded people, develop an own community- and give a rats ass about what others may say or think.
In closing... I still find it strange that I haven't heard of any a-cappella noise choirs. That'd fucking great!
Kudos for the thread.
Hey, why did Crumer delete his posts? I thought he made some of the best points.
Shame,
don't know if I fully remember the content, but it may prove (I might be threading ice here) that the topic launched is quite daring and tender. Hate to see people censuring themselves, should be no need for that. Hope Crumer will repost his reply. My apologies if my assumptions in this reply where ill draughted, or if I threaded on toes.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 28, 2012, 06:03:13 AM
Hey, why did Crumer delete his posts? I thought he made some of the best points.
He was posting as a Guest, and in that, it makes some sense that he only wanted a temporary presence. Cannot give a good reason why, but I like it.
AIT
ZM,
explains it.
He had guest status only because he left the forum (deleting account requires moderator to finish it).
Too bad people appear to be busy editing/deleting their post as soon as they have said something worthy of reading.. then ruining the flow of topics when there's replies for messages that aren't there anymore.
I'm sure Crumer would have had good messages. Unfortunately didn't see any of them.
Quote from: tiny_tove on June 27, 2012, 10:08:10 AM
Quote from: crumer on June 27, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
"I do noise so I am your brother" died a long time ago.
THANK GOD FOR THAT!
I've fortunately never been exposed to this kind of attitude in noise. It is one of the stains of being a metal fan that I always loathed, the constant reassurance that all metallers are brothers in arms, individuality through dis-individualising bullshit.
Once again totally agree.
Don't get me wrong, I did and to a strong degree still do love metal. I just hate metal fans, or rather, "those" fans.
I completely understand what you mean and I repeat, I agree.
Quote from: online prowler on June 28, 2012, 05:47:13 AM
I still find it strange that I haven't heard of any a-cappella noise choirs. That'd fucking great!
I've performed Paragraph 7 of Cornelius Cardew's 'The Great Learning' as part of a scratch ensemble put together by APATT...that was pretty much accapella noise choir. It was also really fucking hard work to concentrate on, so was the Steve Reich 'Clapping Music' we did.
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on June 28, 2012, 05:43:27 PM
Quote from: online prowler on June 28, 2012, 05:47:13 AM
I still find it strange that I haven't heard of any a-cappella noise choirs. That'd fucking great!
I've performed Paragraph 7 of Cornelius Cardew's 'The Great Learning' as part of a scratch ensemble put together by APATT...that was pretty much accapella noise choir. It was also really fucking hard work to concentrate on, so was the Steve Reich 'Clapping Music' we did.
A bit of sidetrack from the topic, nevertheless: The statement re choir was made in a context as to illustrate there is no need for equipment, outer ideology- or praise in order to develop- and produce own material. I see your point though HKG and personally I appreciate Cardew's work immensely. True pioneer in his field. I'll dig up his work Treatise and listen to it one of these days. In my minds eye I had more an image of a choir in the lines of p.e vox, not contemporary compositions.
Think this thread could be read parallel to: CHANGE OF CLIMATE IN NOISE / SOCIAL FACTOR / GENERATION ME. Makes a good addition.
Quote from: online prowler on June 28, 2012, 05:47:13 AM
I still find it strange that I haven't heard of any a-cappella noise choirs. That'd fucking great!
Tokyo Orthodox Noise Choir:
http://www.myspace.com/music/player?song=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myspace.com%2F469872728%2Fmusic%2Fsongs%2Fdedicated-to-joe-lombardo-47287236
Kicks in at about 2:50...
This was their second performance, circa 2002. Vocalizers include members of Incapacitants, Cracksteel, Mothra, Facialmess, Kazumoto Endo, etc. Conducted by Joe "#1 Noise Fan" Lombardo, to whom the event - FUCK MY ASS vol. 2 - was dedicated.
Yes, that's right! Dedicated to "the number one noise fan in the universe". The phenomenon of a non-artist, non-producing, non-mutually masturbating fan of noise - an incredibly enthusiastic one, and of some considertable taste at that - was as refreshing as it was essential to the restoring of faith in "the spirit of noise". I understand that Soddy, a firm believer in the power of choral music - noise-minded and otherwise - took this project very seriously (re- online prowler's Devotional Music Topic), though the manifest strength of that conviction may lose some in the (chemically adled) execution...
Lombardo's enthusiasm also appears in Guilty Connector's amazing "Brighter Than 10,000 Cacophonous Suns", taken from that same FUCK MY ASS event
http://www.last.fm/music/Guilty+Connector/_/Brighter+Than+10,000+Cacophonous+Suns
Richard Ramirez would also dedicate a release or two to Joe Lombardo:
http://archive.org/details/xvp26
etc, etc
Personally, I'd take the shining glory of 10,000 enthusiastic Lombardos over the massive circle jerk currently in operation. But that's just me.
This is what I am talking 'bout! Just up your ass and do it- plain and simple. A faint spell rung when you dropped TONC. Think a friend mentioned them in the passing once. Seems I deleted the info from my harddrive though. Anyways.. your input Bloated Slutbag indicates that enthusiasm and will can make the ball roll. Kinda enjoy the pro-verbal turd the projects mentioned dump on concepts of noise culture and choral music. No institution should be worshipped.
I'm not an artist. I've recorded some of my own stuff but never released it and don't plan on it. Maybe in the future I can get my project up and going but the sound I want is difficult to get with the equipment that I have and can even afford.
What I do is simply
The Pure Stench (http://purestench.blogspot.com). Interviews and reviews from Power Electronics, Industrial and Noise groups. I did some art for the next Exoteric zine and I've done some other small pieces just for the Stench, but that is really as far as my "art project" goes. I also run another forum somewhat like this but with just a bit more choice (there is of course a Noise/PE/Industrial forum as well as a Metal sub-forum, Hardcore/Post-Punk sub-forum, General Discussion, etc) - http://stenchforums.net . I feel like right now my site and my forums are the best contribution that I can personally add, and I'm happy with just doing that for now.
Quote1) Do you believe industrial music is an art form that ANYONE, especially the musically talentless, can contribute to if they want to? That's one of the myths that originally drew me to it, often alluded to in the early interviews of Throbbing Gristle, but I'm not sure I believe it now. Maybe some people are naturally inclined to be capable industrial musicians, and some people aren't. I'm not sure if by giving up I'm being more honest or lazy.
I've wrote about this pretty extensively but I'll post what my main point is from my blog...
Is it a good thing to be open-minded in small genres such as Noise, Power Electronics (even Black Metal) these days? There are all too many people out there who record their static hiss onto a cassette, xerox the cover art and call it a solid release. This is not exciting. Words like "art" and "creative medium" are no excuse. An attention to detail and a clear explanation for action should be upheld as they are in any other genre. The argument that art is not art until it is communicated is a true statement. But what the fuck makes everyone think that they are an artist, or at least that their choice of expression is the correct fit for them? The phrase "I create art in order to _______" (fill in the blank) is a good starting point. Why bother if your answer is "I create art in order to fill in the blank"? Before you set out there and play with your pedals please do keep in mind that bad art is bad because it does not evoke the feelings in which it is supposed to be representing, not because it isn't "pretty" or understood in mass. The lack of intention and sincerity can be picked up on easily.
"...If it is not admitted that art must be intelligible and comprehensible, then any unintelligible or incomprehensible expression of thoughts or feelings may be called "art." If any incomprehensible form of personal expression may be called "art," then the definition of art gradually loses its meaning, until it has no meaning at all." - Tolstoy
(this section is taken from a comment I made in the same post)....art is very subjective. It is actually one of the only forms of communication that remains "completely personal". There is that which is perceiving the art, that which created the art to be perceived and the act, itself, of perceiving it. If "that which created the art to be perceived" has no intention behind it than, I personally believe, the process is severed at that point and the act of perceiving is reduced to the same level of communication as mopping the floor. I don't want people to think that what this little paragraph means is that if I don't like or understand the art than it isn't art. That's not true at all although I could see it being mistaken due to the Tolstoy quote. It is only when the art is created in vain, with no intention, that it is "bad art". As one would imagine this presents itself more frequently once you start getting towards more abstract forms such as Noise. But this doesn't mean that a standard of some sort should not be upheld. I believe that if this standard, however loose it is, collapses than the genre is in trouble of dying. And when it does then these "anti-art" people sweep it up and add the tag "post-whatever" as if they are proud that they killed it. I don't know if that is a great answer but it is just the way I personally feel about the whole thing. And it is the reason I don't release any of my material - I don't think the stuff I have recorded is up to par.
Underground cultures are way much more consumerists in the material sense than mainstream culture, who are just streaming shit these days (which they pay for with giving attention to ads etc). If you feel such an urge to contribute something beyond your money to the scene to feel part of it, but cannot get around to actually creating something and in the end feeling shit about it - get over it. Hardly constructive, but that's all I can say. Considering how incredibly much is released in all genres today, I wish more people would get over it. Everyone can do what they like, but if you haven't got anything to say, there's no idea forcing it. Read somewhere a quote about being a writer, saying that the only reason a person should become a writer is not wanting to be one, but having to be a writer. In this context, and many others, it becomes pretentious ("oh! my artistic soul cannot be quenched! I must create!"), but modified, it applies to all forms of creativity. If you should do something - create industrial noise for example - you'd know it, and you'd do it. Wanting to do it because it's something you "should" do to fit in or whatever, well again, get over it. If you really want to create sth, just get shit done. This kind of music should be among the easiest to attempt and fail not so miserably that you'd have to kill yourself.
It is equal parts good and bad that the noise scene has so many creators. It is great in a creative sense because it allows any artist more inspiration, more routes and ways to release their music, more sharing of knowledge and more variations in which they can define themselves (if they so choose).
It is bad from a logistical standpoint as you have all these artists creating but who is there to actually consume the products? Sales become trades and the scene becomes a buddy fuckfest where creative inbreeding is out of control.
I am a creator in the scene and obviously choose to go that route, but I think from a logistical standpoint we need more people who are merely fans or just into it participating. Of course, I don't want it to become like indie rock is now as Sean Ragon described it but that is an extreme that I don't see noise going to.
Also, as some have already mentioned here there are many ways in which people involved in the scene can participate without actually recording noise themselves: run a label, a zine, book shows, buy records, or just show your support and spread the word.
And for what it's worth it doesn't seem like you care too much about what other people think.
Quote from: Brad on June 29, 2012, 08:27:42 PM
I have a hobby of buying stuff. I can't help feeling a little pathetic about that.
A lot of us are the same, so don't feel pathetic about it. As ARKHE mentioned it seems as though underground scenes are far more into buying and owning stuff than the mainstream scenes and cultures. Most of us into Noise, Industrial, Power Electronics, Metal, etc. have a "collector fetish", it's very common.
I didn't read much of the thread but I get more of a kick out of the opinion of a non-artist or even just getting msgs/orders from people I've never heard of before...
If listening to (but not creating) music enhances your life for the better and it makes you feel good,more power to you.The nature of the music does not make listening to it or creating it more or less legitimate.Those who genuinely enjoy the music are diamonds in the rough.To quote Con-Dom: "You Have The Right To Be Here".
Brad is still young, I didn't ever feel the need or drive to create sound until the search for music i liked dried up. Now i feel the need to create out of necessity. Necessity for a sound that others have abandoned or that only a small handful of people ever got right.
Because of my strong personal beliefs against artists who feel content working well and safely within defined genre rolls, i would probably never release anything until i could overcome those boundaries and be in my own eyes on a similar level to the artists i hold dear, without being a me-too! soundalike/copycat/hero worship tagalong. God knows there's enough of those in every scene.
Do you think you'd get more respect as an avid fan or as a limpwristed halfassed i'm in a band to say i'm in a band guy? Some people want to make art, most people just want recognition.
Quote from: xdementia on June 29, 2012, 10:42:40 PM
It is bad from a logistical standpoint as you have all these artists creating but who is there to actually consume the products? Sales become trades and the scene becomes a buddy fuckfest where creative inbreeding is out of control.
Also, as some have already mentioned here there are many ways in which people involved in the scene can participate without actually recording noise themselves: run a label, a zine, book shows, buy records, or just show your support and spread the word.
The beauty of participant culture - if you wish to contribute with music, zines or whatever you CAN but it is hardly a must. as has been stated, too many related releases to keep track off, and also as Arkhe says, we are more focused on physical formats, consumption etc. Which means buying small editions, going to small venues, sometimes just taking part of the genre history (and thereby keeping it somewhat alive) by looking up and downloading obscure out of print releases is participating in the "underground culture". I'm sure most of us agrees on vinyl and cassette, and even cd.s being preferable to online digital formats and a very important part of this culture. No one wants to spend money on LPs with no one buying. Logistics as xdementia says. and also, not asking for permission to be a part, but to just learn to see yourself as one.