It is always interesting so other experimental acts play live and see how they work it out. From minimal equipments to museums of vintage synths and effects worth more then i ever will make, to garbage and found stuff. Loop pedals, tapes, people playing over mini discs, CD players, 4 tracks, laptops etc. There is no right or wrong i assume. But it would be fun to hear your thoughts and experiences to play live shows. If you do, or don´t. Why?
I can start to say that i did not like playing live at all a few years back, i was very discomfort with the feeling. In the beginning i did not know how i would play my music live alone so i took help from a friend the first time, that did not felt quite right. It felt more like a collaboration and i am not into that much.
Then i was thinking about take in 1-2 members permanent but that ran out in the sand since i am located where i am. Then i forced myself to say yes to shows and the last year have played more frequently and i have started to actually enjoy it allot.
It has also get my music to a whole other direction. I have always seen the live versus recordings as two very different things. Most that i can´t bring all the stuff to live shows, and that i am alone. When i recorded before i almost used 3-4 channels on the 4 track, now when playing live more frequently i record everything live or sometimes use moore channels.
But instead of seeing it as a problem i did in the beginning it has actually made me a favor and to trust my sounds more than put layers of layers of sounds almost for no reason. I still feel very strange about it but with right volume and a decent sound guy that understands the music it can be good.
Any one who will share?
In early days, I had no idea how noise could be played live. Then I saw Con-Dom, and though yeah, playback the noise from tape and few additional sounds and vocals and that's it. Well, it worked for couple shows. almost 10 years ago made decision to start actually doing it live. At first I didn't know what exactly was necessary to get sound right. Synth and couple samples didn't turn out very good from clean PA sound. I moved into using sampler. Where sound would be what I wanted and could manipulate length of songs and effects/adjustments of loops. At some point thought this is too safe. Too much just standing with everything relying on pre-prepared sounds. Changed ideas into simple set of making all live with minimal gear, based on feedback and metal junk and loops made on the spot. Later realized this was ok for 10-15 minutes, but to do decent 20-30 minutes set, it couldn't be just all random. Returned to sampler. And occasionally mixes of everything above.
After peforming row of shows in short period of time in Finland and sweden, I thought this is it. With the ideas and gear, I've done what can be done, and if I'm to perform live again as Grunt, it should be something new what won't have just routine methods and sounds.
I like live noise to great extent, but my problem is often the lack of visual stimulation. I'm all for video background and action, yet the most wanted would be to be able to see straight connection of action & sound. Where it's not just guy standing on stage and sound happening regardless. Be it ipod playback. Sampler. CDR. Lap-top. To be able to see that when someone does THIS, it causes THAT. Which means basically physical objects & instruments, where perhaps even exaggerated moves and tools are the key elements. And that artists also have the technical know-how, where they can make it work. Nothing more embarressing to watch, that guys with all the gear and shit on stage, and can't get anything audible. Clean acoustic sounds from stage, not captured into any of the gear...
Examples of good noise would be like pre-backing tapes Prurient. Where basically 2 microphones, extreme feedback and vocals would create extremely intense noise. Emil Beaulieau, where turntable, contact-mic+distortion pedal and few other things including goofy theatrical action where you simply can follow the creation of noise on the spot. Hater, where it depends on the show, but stripped down focus on specific thing, grinding the mic or whatever, where result of action and sound is direct. Schimpfluch Gruppe - 5 years ago or something, body action, contact mics, creaking wooden chairs being smashed on stage. Putrefier - with the noiseguitar type instrument abuse and instense pedal works. Incapacitants, with full on noise bliss, where everything just attacks on you. Sound and physical action. Bizarre Uproar, where loops created on spot, broken glass, metal objects and performance/action at its best is seamless solid piece of filthy art. Government Alpha, where despite the chaospad/row of pedals type of set up, his touch & its results in sound seems totally controlled at finest quality. Keränen, who's the master of taking creaky and junky noise sounds, often small but very "concrete" things. You see speaker element on table, where contact mic is bouncing on top of it as result of violent feedback. It's creates direct visual connection of the sound, equipment, ideas and how it interacts with artist. Lasse Marhaug with his "bass-mic whip". Manic Depression doing his modified walkman tape noise performance. Small Cruel Party doing sound installation, where underwater microphones in bowls full of liquids, stones, bubbling medicine pills... DSM playing sets with simply contact mics and toys & tools that make mechanical resonating sounds,...............
List could go on and on and on.. and then I think of the guy, who is there with sampler. And all you see is the pushing loop on. And later off. Or same with lap-top. Or CDR player.
I know some material is just impossible to re-create on stage as it should be, without some sort of playback options. But this is the kind of thing what personally has been obstacle for my own motivation to perform lately. Difficulty of getting enough equipment if playing outside your own region. Settling for some sort of substitutes & quick solutions. Ending up doing very easy, very routine job. Even if that's not audiences view and perhaps its something they haven't seen or hear, if you can't be personally satisfied, it doesn't seem ideal situation, but something requiring new approach. Especially escaping your own ideas of how live show should present your work would be essential.
I can appreciate good sound with nothing else. But the reality in most parts of world simply is, that live show somewhere with crowds of drunken misfits, it needs to be loud, direct and physical. If its something what requires to sit down in quiet, there isn't probably that much possibilities. When I saw John Wiese play in Finland, he did it well. It was very nicely played with lots of stereo tricks and on-stage sound manipulations with contact mics etc. No really action, so if there would have been chairs and more... ehm.. academic feeling instead of rock club, perhaps it would have been even better.
its nice to see that there are some bands playing live. meaning several guys doing noise or working together to make actual songs. im not sure if there are too many in europe but those americans have several of these.
its an impressive thing to see somebody actually making the sounds in real time, maybe even handling the mic at the same time. but the sampler+mic+guy setup seems to be fairly grounded now, im sure some of it is the moderators fault. but not everybody has that bearrapist charisma.
maybe ill ad a personal experience aswell. ive been dicking around with some visual things but unfortunately some these videogadgets cost a lot of money(for me atleast). playing behind a plasticsheet, couldnt see anything behind it and it was great! isolating yourself like that but still being visible to the nerds, I thought it was a cool idea.
edit: the most clever thing ive seen lately is generating your own feedback(fa mentions keränen for example who does this) with a small amp or monitor, this way you can bring in openmic feedback at will instead of trying to catch it with the mic from the main amp or pa. ive seen several failed examples of this. a recent clip of prurient shows that he has two practice amps, screaming at all times.
I would think it's simply the question of "genre", not as much of where bands are located? The more "song oriented" or more industrial touch, bands are bound to be pushing drum machine buttons, synth buttons, sampler buttons... while the noise/experimental artists with no pressure to "recreate songs", can work with almost anything.
Like PE group Sutcliffe Jugend was perhaps the best when they realized that the sampler or synth isn't such a "live instrument" and they grabbed guitar feedback/noise and violent stage presence as way to go. First show with keyboards was much less active than later shows with guitars. And it didn't even affect the sound that much. I mean, it didn't turn into "rock".
I think what is needed is some sort of balance. I've seen boring to watch live shows, what sound great. And seen shows where is lots of action, but for the 3-5 minutes what band plays, its hardly worth to listen. I think in noise & pe, there is unconscious drive to simply blast violently. But it's pretty well known what happens if you start extremely energic physical live immediately. Show is destined to either be short, or go lame by the end. Most likely artist will blew his wad on first 2 minutes. And most often the mess made on stage, simply doesn't translate into actual sound. All the nice contact microphones with thin wires breaking up and the exaggerated violent outbursts looking fairly ok, but sounding like shit. Compared to focusing on what is needed to make object sound harsh, instead of relying on logic of harder-the-better. This has been also problem in some of my shows. Especially notorious perhaps the Wolf Eyes warm up gig, where PA guy was asshole in first place, but also fragile microphone systems broke in hands of thugs hired for backing sound. Usually with first hit.
I remember Macronympha at no fun. There was lots of people on stage. Lots of gear. Lots of shit flying in air. Utmost energy and violence, cuts & bruises. But IF there would have not been Tim of Stimbox in charge of electronics, it would have soon been acoustic freak show. Everything was simply disconnected in matter of couple minutes, and you would see Roemer clanging huge beer kegs, Stella staring audience eating 1$ bills that people were forwarding him. Fernow making out with a corcet wearing female... but in the end, it was Tim who actually kept it together musically in that particular show for most of the time. It was great, though. But how good it would have been if all junk would have been amplified? But then again, if this would have been Stimbox solo with everything else happening removed from stage... well, maybe not as exciting?
Anyways. Expecting to be in Tokyo tomorrow, and to catch live of GRIM, TANGERINE DREAM SYNDICATE (= kosakai & co.), LINEKRAFT+GOVT ALPHA, PAIN JERK, DIESEL GUITAR,.... ohh.. Many of these first time to withness. I have no doubts that these guys will show how Live Noise is made! Perhaps comments posted afterwards.
Very interesting answers!
The gear problem is still a problem for me when i play, if i play in Sweden and go by buss/train i have to have a stupid small lorry. It´s not that many things but together the weight is pretty heavy with the hard-case and with merch and other stuff you know.
It seems that it will be a gig later this year we have to fly too, and there is another problem. I use a tape echo live and bring that on a flight seems like bad idea, it´s kinda of fragile. Not that i am anal about it but i know how they treat bags at the airports.
All the Americans who have played hear lately have had similar gear plus big analog old synths so maybe that isn´t a problem.
Anyone who had experiences of flying with gear?
Quote from: Mattias G on April 23, 2010, 11:14:13 AMIt seems that it will be a gig later this year we have to fly too, and there is another problem. I use a tape echo live and bring that on a flight seems like bad idea, it´s kinda of fragile. Not that i am anal about it but i know how they treat bags at the airports. All the Americans who have played hear lately have had similar gear plus big analog old synths so maybe that isn´t a problem.
Anyone who had experiences of flying with gear?
Just take the most fragile things inside cabin as hand luggage, and put the not-so-fragile stuff like pedals to hold... I've been working at an airport and from experience I can tell that putting fragile stuff to hold is
not a good idea, but you can always request them to put a sticker that says "FRAGILE" on top of your luggage and they will treat it nicely - if they're nice.
good discussion,
my experience... because of living where I live (peripheric boring island) when I play live I always need to fly so for this purpose my best investment has been a heavy and strong flight case, it's ment to be for carrying instruments which are fragile so it's well designed, also I believe it's the dangerousness of itself which protects it, I think if anyone of the staff throw it it might damage anything on its way, also being that heavy (about 22 kg. when full) makes it difficult to handle it happily... I use to put inside everything I carry, pedals, mics, some metal objects and a 4 track mixer, every fragile thing goes well wrapped in bubbles so I've hadn't any problem the few times I've travelled so far before
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5476/flightcase.jpg)
of course what I prepare for a live set is always limited because I cannot fly the whole amount of gear I would like to use, so I can only have 1 mixer which is not that good because I like using two of them as well as other big stuff as cassette decks or keyboards... when I am able to make a set with this limitations and I am happy with it's good
I have a good and heavy case, but i thought it was a bad idea to bright it on flight but now i know better. Thanks for the tips!
But maybe that depends on what company you use, if you fly with Ryanair it would be expensive i think...
Around christmas 09 we had big Danish noise artist event. As i knew that everybody would bring loads of gear, and as me and Loke(LR) share all our gear and i didn't want to interfere to much with his setup as i knew he had something very organised planned. I decided on just using tape with ground track(from first AC track va anythings better comp) and then do improvised metaljunk abuse/feedback on top. What happened was that Loke's very intensive set left a loose connection in our powercords. So two minutes into my set all power to mixer and pedals went. When i finally got it fixed, which actually only took me about a minutes or so the tape track was not synchronized with the rest as the tapeplayer was battery driven. I choose the honorable way out of the situation, crawled on top of my table pulled of my shirt, gained all active channels on the mixer to max and deepthroated my contact mic resulting in massive gag factor. Leading to a short violent set which was praised by everybody at the event. And actuallt sounded good on recording. Goes to show that noise music truly is something to work with and that unlike the rock music i also play you never quite know what to expect... Having played numerous more organised shows with Limepit I think more improvised and shorter set's is the way to go for me as Ashely C
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaRXMfrS_Dg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaRXMfrS_Dg)
Meat, cd player, voice, effects.
nice one Andrew,
check this me with pedals, mixer, mics and metal object
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhU8U1_r4LE
Quote from: Mattias G on April 24, 2010, 09:39:59 AM
I have a good and heavy case, but i thought it was a bad idea to bright it on flight but now i know better. Thanks for the tips!
But maybe that depends on what company you use, if you fly with Ryanair it would be expensive i think...
>>> indeed I guess that would be if you have to pay per weight...
my flightcase pic: http://www.ronfrecords.com/img/flightcase.jpg
when i started doing noise on stage, the first problem for me was to do something at least. i had a real fear of scene, all this people, who came to a rock show, but now they see two guys making harshnoise. but vodka saved me.
now i don't copy my homeworks on stage. playing live and playing for recording are controlled by different parts of my brain, i guess. and it always depends of the place where i perform, show is happening, i play home for myself, playing live is for the crowd. as for the gear, i used to carry big bags on the shoulders (and when you are at the place you think about to sit and relax, not performance), but now i prefer something easy to carry. my best show was with one distortion, contact mic and old table, which was destroyed by the moshing hordes...
I think most of plane companies are about to start adding fees to luggage. While in past the high priced luggage was just in cheap flights, at least Finnair has told luggage would have extra charge from.. 2011? Now recent bands I saw live within a week, included Mo-Te, Diesel Guitar, Government Alpha, Linekraft, Grim, Pain Jerk, Seed Mouth,... etc. and despite all the difficulties of Tokyo = no own cars to drive your huge equipment to venue, no big audience to perform to. Still all these guys did good sets, even just for 15 people in audience. Some artists with massive tasks of bringing full size oil barrels on the train and suitcases worth of pedals! Then alternative is the "I just brough ipod with backing track" type of bands, which is convenient, easy and most likely sounds good.. but just lacks something that these guys had. krautrock influenced drone done on lap-top just can't be the same like Tangerine Dream Syndicate with multiple members (including CCCC original bass player, Kosakai of Incapacitants, cello/violin drone maker, female vocalist, and everybody in front of piles of gear to modulate & process their sounds). Very inspirational lesson learned again how difficult & energy draining tasks can simply make live shows unique.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 04, 2010, 07:46:41 AM
Very inspirational lesson learned again how difficult & energy draining tasks can simply make live shows unique.
Yes, this is a very interesting point. Reminds of me the ideas that Sons of God / Guds Söner (Leif Elggren & Kent Tankred) have about their performances (combining performance arts, sound and visual aspects). Here's a quote from their web page:
With the help of these themes we try to find our way to a situation or condition which can be likened to a miracle. We are looking for a point where all aspects we work with converge and something extraordinary happens .... We often work with physicality in order to put ourselves in a position where it is possible to reach this point. Our preparations are perhaps not discernible to the audience; we might have been up all night or physically exerted ourselves through manual labour. This makes it possible to relate to our artistic work and open up situations we otherwise could not gain access to. This way, we also avoid given aesthetic gestures which could lead us onto a predetermined course of action. Sometimes we have had things like stones in our shoes to divert our attention and prevent us from creating a conscious aesthetic. This way, things can take place outside of our conscious control and we will be more "authentic".
This doesn't have much to do with Noise but I'll share anyway. The only time I have ever played live was at some basement show for a girls birthday and I was with a friend of a friends "post-rock" band. They wanted me to do samples I said that I would do their playback/loops and anything else they needed done but that I wanted to have one small spot after to do my own thing, they said sure. Day of the party comes and they decide to tell me that "it won't be a good idea if you do you stuff afterward." It was some small crowd of about 20 people, church going type of hipster fucks and then 3 of my friends who came with me. We were all drunk and high, everyone else was "against drugs" so I made sure to bring my beer and tin foil on "stage" with me. I did what I promised and then, when their set was done, I attempted to do some small ambient piece (I wanted to do Noise but it would have sounded very strange in contrast). They were pissed. We got into a small argument I poured beer on their casio, threw it on the ground, threw the empty bottle at an amp yelled "fuck your birthday" into the mic and jumped backwards into the crowd. Some girl with braces got a mouth full of blood from my heel. My friends loved it, everyone else was probably praying for me or some bullshit after we stormed off. I thought it was fun and great, real anger and animosity in a live setting, I guess I was the only one.
QuoteI think most of plane companies are about to start adding fees to luggage.
Yeah, when we were flying from Belgium (Brussels Airlines sth?) a few months ago, out of the blue they wanted us to pay an additional 70 euro (!!!) for each of our check-in instruments (that is, two guitars, one bass + three drum boxes) - they supposedly had some extra fee just for instruments. Don't ask me why, but I guess we were lucky not to know about it so the woman behind the desk let the instruments pass.
Though I guess that's not really a problem when travelling with a bag of cords, samplers, tapes & pedals, which they would hardly recognize as traditional instruments unless they open it.
I resurrected this tread again and i wan´t to know if any of you who have flied to USA to play could give some advice. Are they cool with the gear if you have it in the hand baggage? I am thinking of the security and that stuff. Have been many times in USA and they always wanna check my vinyl records etc. So what will they do when i have some modified tape players and pedals etc that looks weird in their eyes? Do they even care?
What more should you think of?
Playing live is semi nerve wrecking for me but absolutely worth it.
When I went through JFK last winter with my gear in my backpack they made me take all of it out, put it in a separate bin for the x-ray and that was pretty much it. They asked me what it was but didn't do some hardcore search or anything. Biggest problem I'd say is the weight. My backpack straps nearly tore off. I'd just say figure on an extra 5 minutes at security.
A couple of years ago, I flew with a small toolbag w/gear inside it. If I can't get everything in something handy & not too heavy then I'm not taking it. It was a mic, cords, a few efx pedals. US Customs wiped it all down looking for bomb residue when I was leaving Canada. I dont' think anyone looked through my stuff going into Canada.
Final 2 taint performances were my best as I finally figured out that rehearsing & have a proper set list works best.
Live performances are such an awesome part of noise. If you don't do them, or at least attend them regularly you are really missing out.
I think I started performing noise live just like Mattias G. And I feel the same way as he did, regarding becoming more comfortable with your sounds and realizing that "less is more" sometimes, but also having to capture the attention of the audience as well.
One of the many things I love about live noise performances is you never know what you're going to get. Like Mikko said, there are so many different ways to create sound and do your set, but I have seen more industrial related bands use junk metal and strange objects successfully before. I think using a mixture of sampling, electronics, and physical "playing" is the way to go. But I tend to have a number of 3-8 tracks which I can perform at one time and when I find myself playing 3 shows in a month I'll do different variations of those tracks. Some of them only require simply a sampler, others are more complex using live cinderblocks, glass, metal, and homemade instruments. If there's a smaller show that I know won't be well attended and I'm playing it just to be exposed to a different crowd, or as a favor to a friend I might do a simpler set using only synth and mixer. If I'm doing a big show with other acts that I really respect I'll do a newer track that requires a lot more energy. I also sometimes tailor my sets to mix in a little more with the style of the other acts on the show. I was just telling my gf the other night that I really love how I am actually influenced by the acts that I play with now and it's interesting how they can affect my sound.
Sets can also be determined by logistics. When I did my West Coast tour, obviously I couldn't bring materials like glass, stone, metal, machine parts, along with me so I did what I could with my pedals, a small piece of sheet metal, and samplers/synths. I still got a lot of responses to the sets, I think because it had enough of an auditory dynamic.
I think when you have some physical element in your set it's automatically more "accessible" but I personally don't care if it's just a person at a laptop - if it sounds great I am usually really engaged in the set.
I don't perform live & haven't missed a thing...
yeah same for me ...
Live is my favorite medium to listen to noise as well as perform. I feel I feed off others' energy even though I blackout and everybody is faceless.
The Smell & Quim show before Xmas was something we all felt a bit unhappy with at the time but watching back it sounds and looks pretty great I think - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCn1_xjBy9g
When semi-improvising a noise set there's always a moment when however drunk you are - and in the case of Smell & Quim, that's usually so drunk we are barely able to stand - you suddenly get the sensation of walking with no solid ground under you: you don't have a fiucking clue what you are doing. It can be a terrible experience if this persists til the end of the set and the audience response is muted. Improv rather than noise, but I've done things with the A-Band that have flopped so badly I've wanted the ground to swallow me up. All worth the risk though for those magical occasions when intuition and a group mind take over, and it feels like you are guided by some force outside you.
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on January 11, 2012, 03:31:30 PM
The Smell & Quim show before Xmas was something we all felt a bit unhappy with at the time but watching back it sounds and looks pretty great I think - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCn1_xjBy9g
In my opinion it sounds and looks very good.
Come play Boston, there's not a lot of cash but we have a lot of fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGh123n-KJQ&list=UUiSAbvgiNa_zKUb8JF_oyUg&index=5&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1NWBAz-7Ag&list=UUiSAbvgiNa_zKUb8JF_oyUg&index=15&feature=plcp