EDIT: This topic was split from Xn Recordings topic. I don't know what exactly would be good name for it...
There are handful of labels out there who seem to rely on limitation or packaging. I am sure, that there is a big ( "big" )collector market where it means that people buy material for other than listening purpose.
Someone to pack things into sweet wood box with etched copper plate won't make music any better (this matter could be debated, though, since why make cover if it doesn't affect anything?), but these things seem to sell for quite wild prices.
I do find it little disturbing that "new comers" or "less cult bands" wouldn't be worthy of little investment. While cult names can produce whatever (see Jackman topic elsewhere), and turds are served with golden decorations to hungry crowd. Major blame could be on customers. Who's ready to pay 10-20€ for Mutant Ape 7" with neat packaging? Even if it quaranteedly would be better than a lot of famous things out there. Some bands are already rated in peoples minds to certain categories. Where Prurient tape can be 20$, but Stimbox can't. Where 1 minute Jackman 7" is ok, but someone else doing it would be simply laughed out. And it's not even matter who is better or worse, but categories similar to comic book and photobook. Where first, despite how good it is, how big, and how labor heavy can't be more than 5-20,- while photobook of same or smaller size is 5 times higher price. Both enjoyed, both great. But different category. The typical noise release seems to be like comic book. Everybody likes, but not wanting really to pay for it in same way as for something slightly "high art".
Reality of today simply is brutal in expenses (in case of vinyl) and reality seems to be that item is expensive or it doesn't exist at all. Which seems to mean the huge lack of PE / industrial noise vinyl releases, since I don't see the crowd who are ready to pay 20€ + shipping for something like... lets say YAO 91404 D. Which would be great, but perhaps unsellable to modern collectors market.
That is a thread in itself. The investing in safe and very boring bets as opposed to giving the time and attention to the here and now groups. It goes way beyond the genres discussed here.
The so called undergound is littered with safe labels who'll do 300 LP's by reunion bands like SKULLFLOWER or RAMLEH and not give a flying fuck about new bands trying to build their thing. Same goes for the endless golden oldies tours with either tired old bands still limping on who'll tour their first two (good) albums in their entirety or straight up reunion shit that sucks turd. 50+ people turned up to see IRM, GRUNT, KOEFF, PESTDEMON and myself in Malmo whereas I'm sure RAMLEH packed out the Grosvenor in London last week. People go with the safe and what they've heard of about rather than spend time and money on bands that are happening here and now. It's a sad state of affairs and I blame both labels and fans.
Perhaps soon to be splitted into own topic.. "appreciation of currently happening things?"
But lets continue off topic here for a while. It is relative too. I remember when Mutant Ape, Shift, Grunt, S.O.F.A., and who else was it? In Leeds. Thursday. Was there 24 people? Next day, friday. Should be much better crowd. Small Cruel Party, Third Organ, DAS SYNTHETISCHE MISCHGEWEBE, and few more. Much bigger, much more well known names. And how much people? 7 or was it even 11 who paid in? We're talking about international event with veterans from 80's and 90's who are established names all over the place. And no crowd interested at all. And all of these guys are not on cumback tour. They've been around & active all the time working hard for stuff they do. And did it well.
With current rise of interest on Ramleh, I don't think their success is so big that it has any damage on the rest. It barely sells few hundred as far as I know about editions they press. You can get their old rock era 7"s for very nice prices. And so on. I have sold more Shift "bulk" than new Ramleh double CD re-issue. Which is great. Or lets say 1st disc amazing, 2nd disc not so much. When their comeback show was in NYC, huge amount of people simple walked out after Wolf Eyes. Not careing less about whatever is coming as headliner. I don't see that bands like Ramleh would take much attention from new bands, I feel its more like assumption that it would have to be so. While reality might be that unless material is marketable outside core of noise/pe, it can't attrack large audience. Therefore something with historical merit, genre defining qualities, qualities that can be seen as interesting phenomena by outsider, some sort of marketablity... those are all what sells the band to audience. It seems idealistic to think "good music" would be what counts. But of course, to pursue to promote such idealism is necessary from point of view of sound enthusiast who couldn't care less for who and what is hyped now.
The weakest point in my argument is that I don't know how many turned up to see RAMLEH last week. It may also be that the genre is too small for anyone, even big names from the past, to pull anything of note. I still think the reunion craze of the last ten years seems to echo in our little scene as well.
Quote from: TheGreatEcstasy on December 14, 2009, 08:45:55 PM
It may also be that the genre is too small for anyone, even big names from the past, to pull anything of note.
this is it. i have a strong feeling that the size of the crowd has much more to do with promotion than "big" names. also crossover-appeal is one thing, but booking a "noisy indie group" on a noise bill can (and probably WILL) fuck up the party.
Quote from: TheGreatEcstasy on December 14, 2009, 08:45:55 PM
i have a strong feeling that the size of the crowd has much more to do with promotion than "big" names.
Seconded. Promotion & Venue + A Big Name are usually sufficient guarantors of reliable turnout. Name alone means squat.
That would be the logical way to look at it but in my experience it seems the turnout depends much more on who is organising than who is playing.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 14, 2009, 08:38:27 PM
When their comeback show was in NYC, huge amount of people simple walked out after Wolf Eyes. Not careing less about whatever is coming as headliner.
At Nosturi Helsinki 2007 I walked away after GRUNT not caring the headliner WOLF EYES...
Quote from: XE on December 16, 2009, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 14, 2009, 08:38:27 PM
When their comeback show was in NYC, huge amount of people simple walked out after Wolf Eyes. Not careing less about whatever is coming as headliner.
At Nosturi Helsinki 2007 I walked away after GRUNT not caring the headliner WOLF EYES...
Thus we begin to touch on the difference between Evropa and America.
There's a lot of good American P.E. and industrial being produced by young people that gets looked over quite a bit as well, stuff that isn't merely "blast of noise + vocals".
For example, Vomit Arsonist, Sewer Goddess, Bereft, Xiphoid Dementia (not really new, but young), Koufar, Skin Graft, Ascites...etc
Many of them are much more rhythm + synths + noise (aka "Euro" style) and deserve to be mentioned in this thread.
/apologist rant.
Not really. You could still say that W.E. was most popular of the evening. Most people came to see them, and they played loudest.
Difference is that in Finland, Grunt has "following" of perhaps 20-50 people at max. Optimistically. While Wolf Eyes one and only show will attract couple hundred who want to see what's all the fuss is about.
I think most of things go down to realities which are similar to things what plague everything in modern world. Never ending stream of entertainment and opportunities. To get noise LP, used to be "special". Or to get CD. Even more special was to withness live show. When suddenly we live in times when you have to choose which show of the day you go to. Valuate your money which out of several dozen releases just came out, reality just is that not all can succeed. Someone will be always the one that doesn't get attention. Just too many things, and not only noise. Everything competing of persons attention.
I have no envy on Wolf Eyes, Ramleh, Whitehouse or whatever for them their success. Most of the guys did so much more and so much higher quality than anyone else, that it would be strange if their success wasn't what it was. I know how it is to do & try, but never really go anywhere success wise (haha!), but I can't see that as some sort of goal even in first place.
From an American perspective, I've noticed that there's a weird trend in American indie that is using "noise" to describe fuzzy, lo-fi, grainy, shittily-played punk and garage rock. On the same token, there's a huge boom in psychedelic noise bands getting big in indie crowds (check out labels Not Not Fun, Woodsist, Fuck It Tapes, etc). Comes from a more freak-folk angle than industrial with their style of noise. Just peculiar that most of the extreme stuff got passed over (what little that didn't had its heyday about a decade ago).
As a person who organizes both noise, industrial and experimental shows as well as mainstream indie rock gigs, it's funny you should mention "indie noise band" on the bill with industrial or, at least, traditional noise groups. The draw is much bigger for "indie noise" right now in America, and it's taking precedent over a lot of the industrial guys. Keep in mind, America also has the idiots at Pitchfork lording over what's bookable and what's "out". It's a real shame, especially because I can book a sick industrial show and get less than a quarter of the attendance i'd get if I booked certain indie noise bands (regardless of my feelings on them...frankly, I don't have much of a problem with most psych noise. I enjoy a lot of it.)
Dunno what it really is about America right now. Keep in mind much of the American noise scene that is getting really big is mostly young, West Coast kids who are doing basically weird psych rock. It's a generation's redefinition of noise, I suppose. Many of the people on this board and who are active in the Euro PE scene were around to witness at least the 90s wave of PE/Death Industrial that influenced so much of their sound.
That said, I'm 21 and personally love old-school noise and p.e. and reflect it in my project and the projects I usually work with.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on December 16, 2009, 12:29:24 PM
Quote from: TheGreatEcstasy on December 14, 2009, 08:45:55 PM
i have a strong feeling that the size of the crowd has much more to do with promotion than "big" names.
Seconded. Promotion & Venue + A Big Name are usually sufficient guarantors of reliable turnout. Name alone means squat.
Quote from: TheGreatEcstasy on December 16, 2009, 09:06:28 PM
That would be the logical way to look at it but in my experience it seems the turnout depends much more on who is organising than who is playing.
I would file "who is organizing" under the broader umbrella of promotion (with or without the capital "P"), so it seems we are in agreement...? ("+ A Big Name" uses "+" to infer afterthought, to make this post as ugly as humanly possible)
What is a "indie noise band"? Just curious which bands you are refering to. Bloodyminded?
The only band I could think of here that would fit that category in Sweden would be Ättestupa. Mainly because they are the only noise related band over here that have had a hype surrounding them and got good reviews in the mainstream music press.
I think there is also a lot about where its done. Any kind of show in venue which has audience regarless who plays. I don't know if this type of places exists all over the world, but you can basically point out venues/bars/clubs where all the "underground people" hang out. When you go to UK, and show is arranged in... like "Sir Elwoods Old Tavern" -type of places, it's hard to imagine there would be anyone but the die hard followers there. No people who just happen to be there. Not perhaps collectors or consumers, but people open to experience any type of undeground live music.
I have organised couple of shows just by myself. In 1998 I did Freak Animal Fest #1, we had 100 people. All kinds of underground kids who saw the posters on streets and lots of people around finland who came to see thing what rarely happened. This was in non-alcohol youth house venue... Which seems like impossible scenario today.
In 2008 fest #2 with c. 140 people. Again, I would say perhaps 70 at max. was "noise crowd". Rest must have been just curious local people checking out show and people just entering in. Having like 60 year old grandmother clapping hands in excitement when Bizarre Uproar climax 3 nude male asses get spanked with belt by mrs. bizarre. hah. She paid in 7€. And seemed to like what she saw. If this was some "ug show for die hard only", we would have had maybe 30-40 people there.
When S.I.C.K. organises shows, I think there has always been good crowd. About 60-80 paid in. Just for vile noise/pe assaults? It thanks to venues popular among ug people, shows promoted to noise, metal and punk scenes, through forums, mailinglists and direct e-mails. It may be easier in smaller countries and cities like ours, when it is actually possible to do it.
For about 10 years now I have been thinking and talking of cross-over live shows. Where PE, noise, free-psych-folk, improv or whatever would be together. It's fact that for most of time, if there's fest with more than 5 bands, it's hard to watch all without wanting to also socialize with other people you rarely see. With some genres you don't care about, there would be no need to watch all, but enough to have value for money. Perhaps more crowd, when people who would come for simple filthy noise would come for other things. Or myself, who won't necessary go to see ________ but it it comes as "side kick", I may still enjoy it. Cultural differences might be big, and people don't feel associated with each other, but it's not like we're talking about utmost opposites one couldn't handle when necessary. It's just a live show, not like getting married.
Quote from: Strömkarlen on December 17, 2009, 10:17:03 AM
What is a "indie noise band"? Just curious which bands you are refering to. Bloodyminded?
The only band I could think of here that would fit that category in Sweden would be Ättestupa. Mainly because they are the only noise related band over here that have had a hype surrounding them and got good reviews in the mainstream music press.
Does "indie" require attention from mainstream press to qualify?
I think, when "indie" is mentioned by person who comes from PE/harsh noise, he doesn't mean "independent music" or "independent labels" or whatever. He means the emo boys, college experimental rock droners, cool scene guys. Insulting term most of all, hah...
But seriously, I may be wrong, but I would guess myself that it refers to people who approach noise as it was continuation of "alternative rock" and intentionally different. Performing rockn'roll PE, performing "jams", performing loud noise with no intent other than blast some cool sounds. Aesthetically being very... "indie". It may be hard to explain, but I came across this amusing rant re-posted in blog:
http://nickheer.com/blog/the-problem-with-indie-hipsters/
Quote from: from link aboveIndie kids need special 'indified' versions of other genres in order to render them listenable, as they simply can't handle those same genres in their raw, pure, (and unfashionable) forms.
Which is something, I can agree. I see indified black metal, indified punk, indified noise, indified PE... Not that it all would be good, but in case of rejecting history and aesthetic of for example Power Electronics or Industrial-noise, I feel that it doesn't turn into healthy progression, but often perhaps even the opposite. Nevertheless, in context of live gigs, I don't oppose at all teaming up with success of indie music. To isolate completely into tiny fractions leads to suffocating death.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 17, 2009, 11:18:32 AM
Quote from: from link aboveIndie kids need special 'indified' versions of other genres in order to render them listenable, as they simply can't handle those same genres in their raw, pure, (and unfashionable) forms.
Which is something, I can agree. I see indified black metal, indified punk, indified noise, indified PE... Not that it all would be good, but in case of rejecting history and aesthetic of for example Power Electronics or Industrial-noise, I feel that it doesn't turn into healthy progression, but often perhaps even the opposite. Nevertheless, in context of live gigs, I don't oppose at all teaming up with success of indie music. To isolate completely into tiny fractions leads to suffocating death.
I don't know if you need to have mainstream cover to be indie noise. It was just one way to try to get a grip on the term.
I see any "indified" version of anything as a cleaned up version that you can bring a date to*. It is like every second month someone gets a new girlfriend and suddenly feels a big urge to tells us that we all have to mend our ways. No more porn, no more nazis...
about the crossover shows in finland, didnt something like that happen in that squathouse in helsinki that got tore down in 05-06. I never went there but ive since talked to helsinki people about the very same thing but I suggested punk bands with noise guys doing their thing.
if I remember correctly somebody mentioned that a few shows like that had happened+ there were those that happened in the last few years in semifinal, I forget the name they had given to the events. pineconehat drone, shitty tape music guy, prurient. those shows could be filed under crossover since there more artscool ladies than noisers and industrial guys.
Quote from: Strömkarlen on December 17, 2009, 10:17:03 AM
What is a "indie noise band"? Just curious which bands you are refering to. Bloodyminded?
The only band I could think of here that would fit that category in Sweden would be Ättestupa. Mainly because they are the only noise related band over here that have had a hype surrounding them and got good reviews in the mainstream music press.
Not at all about Bloodyminded. Despite what anyone thinks of their particular style, etc, they've long outlive the "indie noise" thing by almost 15 years. I personally love their stuff, but if they're despised, they're at least a despised band that was at least authentic in terms of the scene.
I meant more akin to US bands like HEALTH, Wavves, Ducktails, etc. For most, it would be a continuation of alt/indie rock into a "experimental" realm.
To me, there's two major divisions in noise right now: Industrial Noise and Psychedelic Noise. Both are valid styles and genres, but they ultimately differ from an aethetic delivery and presentation. That said, I've seen industrial bands do psych drone sets and psych noise bands like Sick Llama do sets that sounded like Atrax Morgue. Currently, in the US at least, psych noise has taken over industrial noise in terms of popularity. This isn't a bad thing. In fact, it draws in a lot of cool elements from krautrock and 70s synth rock that influence the music in a new way.
What I think IS a bad thing are sites like Pitchfork.com who use "noise" as a way to describe lo-fi, grainy bedroom shoegaze and put it on everything that's not a 1/4/5 progression. This brings in bands like HEATLH, Wavves, Animal Collective (whom I like, just not as "noise") and The Dirty Projectors. Maybe they're experimental, but not noise. Unfortunately, what this does is:
A) Introduces people from the mainstream to "noise" in a way that doesn't acknowledge industrial traditions (if even not in sound, then in passing) or even the current scene's style marks. Very few of the bands they describe as noise would be seen on a bill playing next to someone like Wolf Eyes, Prurient, Xenophobic Ejaculation or Emeralds.
B) Cheapens all noise as poor production quality and shoegazing and studio trickery instead of a conscious decision by the artist
C) Encourages the mass-production of "noise" as a way to cash in on hipsters who are trying to be weirder than their peers, but really can't stomach legitmate psych/industrial noise
CRUSH THE FALSE.
Quote from: Nyodene D on December 17, 2009, 05:56:23 PM
Wavves
I haven't heard this group but after seeing a youtube clip of the singer retarding himself over NIRVANA's Nevermind album I wanted to beat him to death with a tyre iron.
And what kind of a mongoloid name is Wavves anyway? Can they not spell?
no, see, the two v's looks kinda like waves....it's some high-art shit...
Wow, that's some profound shit. I'm afraid I lack the intelligence and intellect to grasp that.
Moving back on topic a bit. Even if it is good for genres to evolve and draw in new influences (though I'm sure krautrock and various psychedelic stuff was always an influence for some, even from the very start) a problem occurrs when, for want of a better word, outsiders with little to no knowledge appear and take a dislike to certain things they either know nothing about or don't understand and start condemning and impose rules for what is permitted and what is not. An example being many a No Fun visitor who've heard of Wolf Eyes or think Thurston Moore is one crazy out there dude only to piss their pants when SLOGUN or MACRONYMPHA take the stage. And then the whiney faggot fest takes off.
Exactly. That's another aspect of why the propagation of mainstream music as "noise" is harmful. It makes it look as if THAT is the most extreme, outlandish thing out there and that people who, traditionally, have been harsh/heavy/dominating are going to look like they're just trying to play the whole "one-up" game on who's louder/tougher/more unlistenable. From personal experience in a college town, whenever I or some of my harsh noise/P.E. buddies do sets at noise shows, people always tell us that we're too loud or aggressive and that "nobody likes what you do because nobody can listen to it."
I can understand if my stuff is genuine shit, but these are comments overheard at noise shows, where the quieter drone / shoegazer / ambient acts can get away with it and everyone just thinks my friends and I are being assholes and trying to make everyone leave... A lot of this is because many of the people who come to college-town noise shows tend to come at noise from an indie-sanctioned approach. I've never really had this reaction where there is an established industrial scene, so either people are lying to my face or people just aren't getting why I am shouting and making loud, angry noises...
P.S. the wavves crack was intended to be sarcastic. Sorry if I inadvertently rubbed you the wrong way. It was a knock on them, not you.
No probs squire, I heard your sarcasm and my comment was intended the same way. Not towards you but any arty dude out there who would consider Wavves not just the hight of chic but also be willing to write off anyone of a differing opinion as lacking the sophistication they themselves so blissfully possess.
I proudly admit to lacking such sophistication where some sacred cows are concerned. Like japanese noise or Yoko shrieky annoying art cunt Ono.
Sacred cows are interesting in this day and age of digital music press and reviews. Check out the year-end lists on sites like Pitchfork and watch for how many "noise" bands make the list. Ironically, probably at least 25 out of 100 of the best albums from 2009 are going to be described as "noise". Noise is hip right now to a lot of kids. Unfortunately it accompanies the sentiment that people who do noise are doing it to be hip or extreme. Stupid, really.
I know I sound like a broken record bitching about Pitchfork and stuff, but the reason that they' gather so much ire is because they act as such an important hype machine in the indie scene. Like I said before, I often book indie rock shows, and have learned that if a band gets a review of 7.4 or higher on Pitchfork, they can ask for another $1200 guarantee (industry practice, I suppose). For instance, Wolf Eyes costs a great deal nowadays to book through their agent because of the press they got. Fortuantely, they tend to do a lot of DIY shows these days as well.
Frankly, I resent Pitchfork for dictating the tastes of indie rock music to hipster kids. Now that they're bringing noise into the fold, am I going to have to worry about booking noise bands for exuberant prices? (In some ways, I already do have to because of this).
Thankfully, this trend has only happened since about 2007. Before that, Pitchfork abhorred noise (NON's Children of The Black Sun got a 0.5 out of 10.0 when it came out). Hopefully the trend won't continue to the point where things get harder for the true DIY scene.
guess the shift came a bit earlier than 2007:
2000 - 2002: NON as noisy bullshit
Receive The Flame: http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/5827-receive-the-flame/
Children of the Black Sun: http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/5829-children-of-the-black-sun/
2004: NON as brilliant, kitschy
Terra Incognita: http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/5830-terra-incognita-ambient-works-1975-present-featuring-boyd-rice/
The text is too small for these old eyes to even try reading that but I doubt there's anything useful written in there anyway. I liked Children of the Black Sun when is came out in 2002 but hadn't listened to it in years when I played it again recently. It's weak as hell and probably deserves a 0.5 out of 10. I might have given him 1 out of 10 but not more than that.
regardless of the quality of the album (I personally love it), if Pitchfork panned two of NON's albums, why two years later (when US noise was building in credibility with the indie press) did they fall all over themselves to praise Boyd's work?
Not wanting to defend what seems like a bunch of fuckheads too much but that last NON album is a reissue of very old material if I'm not wrong. Maybe in this case it's about the early material being so much better than the later stuff.
yeah, that compilation of ambient works is exactly that. Ambient works, so it'll probably get different comments than his other style albums.
Perhaps if turning back to topic mentioned in name of this thread, ACTUALLY, now when I think of it, anyone ever noticed the same: A lot of veterans of the scene, who have started with tapes, then LP's, then CD's, and lately they have shifted to mainly CDR and even mp3 file "releases"? Thinking of things like PBM, Hands To, AMK, Chop Shop, Pacific 231, and so on. List could go on for long time. You wonder what it is? You start to wonder, is it really that none of these guys receive vinyl/cd offers? Or if format, sales, distribution etc etc. is actually irrelevant to them. That new guy active in messageboards getting offers from left & right to press even 500 CD's... For many of old veterans who aren't busy networking all the time, the high quality new material or high quality re-issue simply be... file or self burned cdr. One starts to think that perhaps there isn't lack of support for new things... Lets say lack of ambition in general. Like label who will make long term plans, accepting possibility of having album in stock for next 10 years. Knowing that audience is not hungry simply for great release, but collectible limited edition, and instead of going the easier route, choosing the hard way. Keeping item in stock for decades, allowing such policy for new and old artists. I think if one can sell 100 CDR's, he could sell 200 vinyl or CD.
I know, that personally, I've yet to really make up my mind. I would like the fact that records sell enough to break even quickly, but in other hand I'd like stuff to be available. I think I have supported plenty of new up & coming artists, but also done well known names with established reputation.
What I'd say, it comes to fact that scene is so small. I believe it could be bigger. It certainly can't be much smaller, or it would simply vanish. If there is really just 100 people all around this globe into getting CD of ______, it feels strange.
Quote from: Nyodene D on December 17, 2009, 05:56:23 PM
Quote from: Strömkarlen on December 17, 2009, 10:17:03 AM
What is a "indie noise band"? Just curious which bands you are refering to. Bloodyminded?
The only band I could think of here that would fit that category in Sweden would be Ättestupa. Mainly because they are the only noise related band over here that have had a hype surrounding them and got good reviews in the mainstream music press.
Not at all about Bloodyminded. Despite what anyone thinks of their particular style, etc, they've long outlive the "indie noise" thing by almost 15 years. I personally love their stuff, but if they're despised, they're at least a despised band that was at least authentic in terms of the scene.
I meant more akin to US bands like HEALTH, Wavves, Ducktails, etc. For most, it would be a continuation of alt/indie rock into a "experimental" realm.
I actually don't have anything against Bloodyminded. I always thought Intrinsic Action was really funny. It was more in the line of them getting coverage in Vice and stuff like that.
Now when you mention Ducktails and Wavves I understand better what you mean. Two bands I've tried to listen to and I can't hear what is great about them. But I guess if they gets more people interested good stuff it is ok with me. I won't hold my breath though.
While all of this is quite horrific, yes yes, there there, and much as I enjoy a good whinge - I said whinge! ahem. So long as this state of affairs does little to impede my access to the shit I like, it's hard to give a rat's ass. But I'm trying, trust you me.
How many labels and projects use some lame, embarrassing Black Sabbath reference? It's more difficult for me to handle than rote porn imagery and shallow copy-cat label aesthetic homage.
I meant more akin to US bands like HEALTH, Wavves, Ducktails, etc. For most, it would be a continuation of alt/indie rock into a "experimental" realm.
[/quote]
I had a very wierd experience in Copenhagen recently, Limepit(a band i am part of) was asked to warm up for Health. none of us had ever heard about this band before, and i think we all got the Idea that it was typical hipster psycadelic drone. it had been a very long time since we had played any shows so why not. it was a possibility to try out more straight PE type of set and we went there with the intention that it would be kind of practise.
the first thing that met us when we came to the venue was some American looking guys all in Neon tshirts and fancy hair cuts and i thought "ohh Shit"
we sat up our gear and it was as if there was some agreement between us and them not to communicate with one another.
half an hour after the doors opend there was something like 120 people there, on a tuesday (i never seen that many people out to a show on a weekday in copenhagen before) all fashion dressed young girls and very hip nasty indie guys. at this time there was not really anything else to do than get drunk and play. so thats what we did, luckily the venue had a strong pa so when we started our set, it was VERY loud. we played something like 15 minutes set and i must say it is one of the best live experiences i have had in a long time. to see what your music can do to "normal" people was very satisfying. the venue was totally packed and we played on the floor and the look on these pretty girls faces was priceless. normally at noise shows in copenhagen you would have like 40people TOP and you will know every one or atleast seen them before, i felt that it was very different and very intertaining to try to play "Out of scene" so to say.
and there was surpricingly people coming up afterwards asking questions and saying how the show had moved them.
i heard the first 2 minutes of the Health concert and i must say it is some of the most horrible stuff i have heard in a long time, just as i walked out i noticed some guy selling their Neon colored tshirts with print saying something idiotic like
"HEALT = Love, fashion, Noise." haha!
I wouldn't say yes to a show with them again, but i must say that in all its crazyness it was a very funny night.
Im sorry if this was to much of topic.
Back to original post in topic I have noticed far less labels pushing professional format releases of new artists that may have limited appeal. Cold truth with vinyl as mentioned are costs are quite high to produce and even higher when it comes to postage required. While nothing crazy (regarding price) Blood ov thee Christ 7" EPs for example have moved roughly 130 units of the 200 total pressing with $10/15 ppd price. Band is quite known due to reissue of "Master Control" CD on Segerhuva as well as current day member involvement and live shows but I still receive emails complaining about unfortunate price. I personally don't see much issue with price itself as it is roughly 10.64 euro with international postage but argument stands as why pay so much when overall running time is less than 10 minutes. I think we are reaching point where percentage of consumers purchasing vinyl are doing more so on terms of item being unavailable on any other format instead of love for format itself. In no way am I complaining about sales of this item (which is given as example of what I can understand best) but reality of it all is rising prices for vinyl format. With this in mind I have more respect for individuals running labels who release similar items due to love of format knowing that minimum profit or even break even point will not happen. Bottom line is these choices are in hands of labels themselves and what they are willing to do.
Quote from: trashritual on January 27, 2010, 05:23:15 PMI think we are reaching point where percentage of consumers purchasing vinyl are doing more so on terms of item being unavailable on any other format instead of love for format itself.
I can tell you that's certainly the case with me. And I think that point was reached for others a while ago.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on January 27, 2010, 11:22:56 PM
Quote from: trashritual on January 27, 2010, 05:23:15 PMI think we are reaching point where percentage of consumers purchasing vinyl are doing more so on terms of item being unavailable on any other format instead of love for format itself.
I can tell you that's certainly the case with me. And I think that point was reached for others a while ago.
Quite the opposite. As time and money are limited, I ofter prefer the items which I can relatively easily caught as vinyls. Also no problem with waiting for vinyl edition for year or two, if such is announced to happen sooner or later. CDs take place more as an impulse purchase due cheaper postage prices and better availability.
This is a more complicated issue than just dedication and availability. Well, everything is more complex than we often discuss it as being. Nevertheless, if every label paid attention to the details and was steadfastly dedicated to the quality of vinyl that, say, Trash Ritual is, then price would play a lesser role for some of us. Beating the barely-breathing dead horse again...but if a piece of vinyl is going to sound little better than FM radio or MP3s, while being 1.5-3Xs the price of a CD, then thats pure silliness for everyone involved. How many of the same people who outspokenly complain about MP3s have little concern for how poorly vinyl has been manufactured and sounds in the past handful of years? What's the difference there? Someone want to take that bull and break it?
Is someone going to try to tell me that the Slogun - Bloody Tears CD would sound as great on vinyl from GZ/PP? Or anywhere in 2009 for that matter? I'm a vinyl nut myself, but I managed to dismount that Shire without falling down and looking the fool.
The problem that I see within this sub-discussion is the loyalty/fetishism to a format with empty intentions. So, you love cassettes? You are dedicated to only doing cassettes on your label? But they're high-speed dubbed, mono, on the cheapest tape stratum money can buy sold at premium prices? To me, that isn't loyalty to cassettes, analogue, or anything else. That's pure, unadulterated, barren pretension, and it doesn't deserve my support; word, cash, or otherwise.
I think the bad quality of vinyl has been discussed elsewhere quite extensively. Like what happened, that vinyl in 2005-2010 sounds worse than vinyl in say 1995-2004? I have yet to see / hear proof other than the poor mastering jobs that people do for their music what is very different from past decades. Having a lot of releases pressed both CD and LP, and able to compare same material on both formats, in majority of cases I can't complain. And each time there is complaint, I know it's all about what style of material is tried to put on LP or 7", what simply is impossible considering the limitations of format. I did series of tape re-issues on LP/CD. Where most actually sounded better than they originally did on tapes. Where 2 of the LP's sounded better than CD, but one of CD's sounded better than LP. Reason was that one of sides was not only 25 minutes long, but included very rough sound in wrong hrz, what would only boost when cut on vinyl, while bass levels had to be cut due length, and result was harsh. Not really bad, but just different. And I did prefer how it originally sounded on tape or CD, but was perfectly aware it could have been done better if length, preventing re-mastering and such has been taken care better. Double LP for 45 minutes just didn't seem good option and some compromise had to be made. But people can always choose CD if they don't like it. Other side of LP sounded much much better when it's done in way as it should. And what is best considering this discussion is that that is EXACTLY same material pressed on 7" back in 1999 as well as exactly same song on comp LP in 2000 as now on complete band LP in 2009. One can compare that anytime. Same songs, same master, same factory, 7" in 1999, side of LP 2009. Compilation LP in 2000, same track in 2009. Quality is right there to be compared and 2009 simply kills. Which is of course advantage of longer 12" groove in case of 7", but advantage is such a good, it doesn't explain the whole case.
Of course this is just one case, but very concrete and real. As opposed to "although haven't heard much of recent (noise) vinyl, I feel like..."
I'll be happy to hear any proof of bad vinyl quality, where variables (such as label submitting 2009 boosted & compressed re-issue cd as master instead of original 1977 analogue master, label stubbornly pressing material what doesn't fit in templates/restrictions of format, refuses test pressing due costs, refuses additional mastering offered by factory to quarantee vinyl compatability, etc) are removed. Not just those "this re-issue shounds shit! factories can't make vinyl" or such.. you know. All the printers can do high quality sharp printing, and still this world is filled with pixelated, bad color scale rubbish that their customers supply to be made.
I assume you mean Slogun "bloody roots" CD? With such a high sound pressure, such a heavy stereobass occasionally, such a ripping high pitched crisp, plenty of playing time... of course THAT isn't going to sound as loud, as pure and as strong as it does on CD that's been mastered to straight 0db. But does it make vinyl of 2009 bad, that it still can't perform some qualities that it never could? I recall back in the day, when bands were put in studio to record material, they were aiming for vinyl LP. label knew it, band knew it, studio knew it. They were aiming for 2 sides with reasonable lengths. Sometimes even putting easy and less distorted or less heavy songs in end of sides to balance quality of long vs. short groove etc. I remember reading of many producers & studios where these things were taken into consideration. Order of tracks wasn't all about how well they "flow" after another, but also how to take best advantage of format to make album. If people won't do it anymore, but insist 50 minutes of heaviest full blast insanity, that's really not fault of vinyl format that it can't perform expectedly.
But I do agree there are plenty of low quality vinyl. Pressed in unclean factory, with dust particels making permanent snap & pop. Thin warped vinyl. What I do hate the most, is the increasing number of out-of-central vinyl releases that many smaller german companies produce. In music, the wowwing can be unbearable, making riffs and melody utter trash. Of course they don't show up so well if one does just rhythmic DJ vinyls into heavy turntable use, but that isn't the use of most recordings.
I do agree Zeno Marx in general, especially about low quality tapes that are insult to what tape should be.
In contect of metal, there has been a lot of very artificial "XXXXX doesn't support death of vinyl. This collectors item is pressed 333 copies" printed on ALBUM cover is best example. Death of vinyl is when it's no longer viable listening format, but mere collectors item, often pressed less than there is demand. Which a lot of noise is starting to be. Not about reaching decent amount of listeners and keep recording available (which would perhaps be the "support for band" was talked about in this topic), but limited edition collectors item meant to sell fast and to be auctioned special trophy (which is most of all support for label than anything else. Most likely hastely bought limited items may end up buried in shelves of collectors and never really listened).
I think its always varying what is "dying" and what gets no support. Some labels say CD's never sell, other say that's the only thing what moves properly. Some say vinyl don't move, others say nothing else will ever interest actual noise collectors. Some wonder who the fuck buys tape, other say that's what people kill for. Not even browsing CD shelves, but diving straight into dusty tape boxes. It could be nice to do honest anonymous poll about what people prefer. From my own experience I can say that CD's sell the best. People would probably buy vinyl if it wasn't that expensive to ship around. Tapes sell to specific audience, but often it's about specific bands. And I'm confident it has more to do with who's release it is, than people buying tape in particular. I release in all formats and everything sells pretty much same amount. Everything is treated with same respect and aim for quality and all formats basically include mix of new and old, guaranteed sellers and very hazardous investments.