What are some of the best examples from culture - books, movies, music, art, pornography, philosophy, etc?
Martin Scorcese's 1976 masterpiece "Taxi Driver." My VHS copy reads "A Psychotic Cab Driver Is Driven To Violence" as the description. If you haven't already seen it, it's got everything you're looking for.
I stand alone
Clean shaven
Angst
Thomas Ligotti is considered a misanthropist. I know I've read one or two books of short stories but they didn't make much of an impression. "True Detective" was influenced by Ligotti's work (I hated TD).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Ligotti
"Songs of a Dead Dreamer" is the book I know I've read. It may be the only one. I'd like to read the book TD took the stick-figures from but most of his books are high priced.
SHURA (1971 Dir. Toshio Matsumoto)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trhGMMZ1RLI
Unbelievable portrayal of created misanthropy and nihilism.
Also -
THE ANIMAL (1968 Dir. R. Lee Frost)
http://www.somethingweird.com/product_info.php?products_id=23168
""You're disgusting!"
Though the roughies made by director R. LEE FROST may not have gone to the comic-book extremes of, say, Michael Findlay or Joseph P. Mawra, his movies were, nevertheless, usually far more unsettling. With violence grounded in reality, and the constant theme of masculine domination over women, films like The Defilers, The Scavengers, Hot Spur, Love Camp 7, and Zero In and Scream consistently portrayed the dark ugly underbelly of sex. As does The Animal, a brooding character study of a man splintering into psychological decay...."
SHURA is a pretty fucking bleak movie. It'd be nice if a U.S. company could pick it up for a blu-ray release. Looks like it's only available in Japan with no English subs.
Also, "Kichiku Dai Enkai" (Banquet of the Beast) is another film that would fit nicely into the theme.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on February 21, 2015, 02:50:05 AM
"True Detective" was influenced by Ligotti's work (I hated TD).
Why?
hoo doo, horns and sticks aesthetic has been very popular and it is starting to look boring but I thought it was entertaining enough.
the yellow kings home life scenes in the final episode were hilarious.
Quote"Kichiku Dai Enkai" (Banquet of the Beast)
fuck yes - seriously a whirlpool of cataclysmic nihilism.
Has anyone read the work of Emil Cioran? I've yet to but am keen on tracking some of it down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78y06QkpnC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78y06QkpnC8)
For fiction, I also think Houellebecq counts, particularly "Atomised".
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 22, 2015, 03:38:21 AM
Emil Cioran
yes! easily the best 'poet' ever although he's more than that too.
the passive vampire is fucking amazing
edit: oh shit that's gherasim luca. that's another good one though!
Quote from: THE RITA HN on February 22, 2015, 02:12:29 AM
Quote"Kichiku Dai Enkai" (Banquet of the Beast)
fuck yes - seriously a whirlpool of cataclysmic nihilism.
best movie.
I'd say Louis-Ferdinand Céline, though I guess most of you are already familiar with him. For people who can read swedish, i highly recommend Nikanor Teratologen. He's even written a book called "To Hate All Human Life"(my translation).
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 22, 2015, 03:38:21 AM
Has anyone read the work of Emil Cioran? I've yet to but am keen on tracking some of it down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78y06QkpnC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78y06QkpnC8)
For fiction, I also think Houellebecq counts, particularly "Atomised".
very obsessed by Cioran, quoted him many times... check also his Italian counter part Guido Ceronetti. A bit more sarcastic but definitely in-line.
Celine was probably the king of the misanthropist... the first part of Death on credit was a big influence on me... Loved when he speak about being in UK and never topening himself with the others because he felt they were alla stupid.
Celine is untouchable. "As long as we're young, we manage to find excuses for the stoniest indifference, the most blatant caddishness, we put them down to emotional eccentricity or some sort of romantic inexperience. But later on, when life shows us how much cunning, cruelty, and malice are required just to keep the body at ninety-eight point six, we catch on, we know the scene, we begin to understand how much swinishness it takes to make up a past. Just take a close look at yourself and the degree of rottenness you've come to. There's no mystery about it, no more room for fairy tales; if you've lived this long, it's because you've squashed any poetry you had in you."
Houllebecq's writing on H.P. Lovecraft tried to recast HPL as a great misanthrope - I wasn't convinced but the book is itself a modern classic of anti-world polemic and I preferred it to his fiction.
Houllebecq is certainly bleak, (and brilliant) but I've never gotten a thoroughly misanthropic feeling from what I've read. I'm no expert, but from what I understand he hates what capitalist society, and the increasing commodification of everything that comes with it, and what that turns people into, more than people themselves. He describes very well I think, especially in "Atomised" the loss of "value" that comes with getting older.
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on February 26, 2015, 05:20:50 PMHoullebecq's writing on H.P. Lovecraft tried to recast HPL as a great misanthrope - I wasn't convinced but the book is itself a modern classic of anti-world polemic and I preferred it to his fiction.
I keep meaning to get "Against The World, Against Life" (that's almost a Black Metal album title). I don't think it's much of a stretch to portray Lovecraft as some kind of misanthrope. People often squirm when trying to "defend" his racism for example but I think that it's those phobias that are at the heart of his writing. He's a man terrified of everything around him.
I like Hollebecq's fiction, so much as I've read which is only two books. I remember when reading "Platform" being confused as to why things seemed to be going so well for the narrator, his lover and their business, and was thinking "this is a Hollebecq novel, when is something terrible going to happen?". Lo and behold, Islamist terrorists storm in, his lover is brutally killed (he has a habit of wiping out women in his fiction), the business goes bust and he ends up a lonely and bitter old man in a scummy part of Thailand. Every attempt at happiness fails, even if it succeeds for a time, and all that's left is bitter gnawing of old pleasures and hatreds.
I think his bitterness comes from frustrated idealism but it results in some pretty anti-human sentiment. Not so much an outright contempt for humanity but more a sense of frustrated to the point of immobility.
The aforementioned E.M. Cioran was the first who came to my mind as well. I read, that in 1966 he decided to fix one of these warnings on his door (my translation):
"Every visit is an aggression
or
Don't enter, show mercy
or
Every face bothers me
or
I am never at home
or
Damned be the one who rings (the bell)
or
I know nobody
or
Dangerous madman"
Quote from: cr on March 01, 2015, 06:13:02 PM
The aforementioned E.M. Cioran was the first who came to my mind as well. I read, that in 1966 he decided to fix one of these warnings on his door (my translation):
"Every visit is an aggression
or
Don't enter, show mercy
or
Every face bothers me
or
I am never at home
or
Damned be the one who rings (the bell)
or
I know nobody
or
Dangerous madman"
I would also recommend Cioran in this context. I remember reading "The teachings of decomposition" (rough translation, don't know whether that's the actual English title) about five years ago and thinking that he was one of the few philosopers whose philosophy could truly be called nihilistic. Also have a book with a few short observations ("Quartered") - haven't read it entirely, but it seems less deep than the aforementioned one.
Also, I just finished Evola's "Ride the Tiger" and I would argue that its cultural pessimism makes it "misanthropic" literature in a broader sense. Of course, there is the constant mentioning of the higher spiritual man on the other end, but I wouldn't say that misanthropy and superiority (especially in an occult or spiritual sense) exclude each other.
When it comes to fiction, "The Wasp Factory" by Iain Banks is definitely worth checking out. It could be described as a somewhat darker, sicker and more isolationist version of "The Catcher in the Rye". Also, the "Skandinavisk Misantropi" trilogy by Matias Faldbakken is pretty worthwhile. The approach is kind of absurd and over the top (comparable to stuff like "Trainspotting"), but especially the first two volumes are pretty dark at times.
Have been wanting to give Houllebecq a chance, but I have the feeling that his view is hipsteresque, which is a definite no-go for me. Can anyone comment on that?
Slightly off-topic from all the recommendations, but interesting point of view:
http://everything2.com/title/misanthropic+principle?author_id=1224172#sam512 (http://everything2.com/title/misanthropic+principle?author_id=1224172#sam512)
QuoteThe misanthropic principle, also known as the unthropic principle, is the philosophical argument that observations of the physical Universe must be, to some extent, incompatible with the conscious life that observes it. This is opposed to the anthropic principle.
About a year or so ago it occurred to me that since organic life itself, as we understand it, so so limited in the natural universe that we can perceive so far, it's fairly obvious that the universe itself is at best indifferent, at worst hostile to organic life. It's good to see these lay musings being brought out to something a bit more substantial.
Agent Smith in The Matrix Said "human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet," however neo thinks otherwise
Thomas Bernhard is always a good read (especially if you are Austrian).
"We had no luck with the weather and the guests at our table were repellent in every respect. They even ruined Nietzsche for us. Even after they had had a fatal car accident and had been laid out in the church in Sils, we still hated them."
"Instead of committing suicide, people go to work."
"We always wonder, when we see two people together, particularly when they're actually married, how these two people could have arrived at such a decision, such an act, so we tell ourselves that it's a matter of human nature, that it's very often a case of two people going together, getting together, only in order to kill themselves in time, sooner or later to kill themselves, after mutually tormenting each other for years or for decades, only to end up killing themselves anyway, people who get together even though they probably clearly perceive their future of shared torment, who join together, get married, in the teeth of all reason, who against all reason commit the natural crime of bringing children into the world who then proceed to be the unhappiest imaginable people, we have evidence of this situation wherever we look... People who get together and marry even though they can foresee their future together only as a lifelong shared martyrdom, suddenly all these people qua human beings, human beingsqua ordinary people... enter into a union, into a marriage, into their annihilation, step by step down they go into the most horrible situation imaginable, annihilation by marriage, meaning annihilation mental, emotional, and physical, as we can see all around us, the whole world is full of instances confirming this... why, I may well ask myself, this senseless sealing of the bargain, we wonder about it because we have an instance of it before us, how did this instance come to be?"
As he's been a personal obsession for quite some time now, I'd also like to mention serial killer Carl Panzram in this context. "Panzram - A journal of murder" by Thomas Gaddis & James Long is one of my favourite books.
"I don't believe in man, God nor Devil. I hate the whole damned human race, including myself. I preyed upon the weak, the harmless and the unsuspecting. This lesson I was taught by others : Might makes right."
"I have no desire whatever to reform myself. My only desire is to reform people who try to reform me. And I believe that the only way to reform people is to kill 'em."
" I wish you all had one neck and that I had my hands on it."
Quote from: vomitgore on March 07, 2015, 11:14:17 AM
Also, the "Skandinavisk Misantropi" trilogy by Matias Faldbakken is pretty worthwhile. The approach is kind of absurd and over the top (comparable to stuff like "Trainspotting"), but especially the first two volumes are pretty dark at times.
I also read that trilogy and I thought it was quite entertaining. 'Kind of absurd and over the top' is a good description. What I always wondered is, how he is seen and received in the Scandinavian countries themselves? For example by those scandinavian people who frequent this forum.
Most people I know of perceive it as good, but as you said, over the top.. I read it in my youth and I think thats pretty typical.
The Antinatalism Hall Of Fame (http://www.knunst.com/planetzapffe/?page_id=180) may be of interest.
Not that I'd necessarily want to conflate antinatalism and misanthropy, but a lot of the same names tend to crop up- preeminent among them the Norwegian philosopher Peter Wessel Zapffe.
Zapffe's The Last Messiah essay (http://www.knunst.com/planetzapffe/?page_id=1093)
http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Essays/Hazlitt/Hating.htm (http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Essays/Hazlitt/Hating.htm)
QuoteWhat chance is there of the success of real passion? What certainty of its continuance? Seeing all this as I do, and unravelling the web of human life into its various threads of meanness, spite, cowardice, want of feeling, and want of understanding, of indifference towards others, and ignorance of ourselves, - seeing custom prevail over all excellence, itself giving way to infamy - mistaken as I have been in my public and private hopes, calculating others from myself, and calculating wrong; always disappointed where I placed most reliance; the dupe of friendship, and the fool of love; - have I not reason to hate and to despise myself? Indeed I do; and chiefly for not having hated and despised the world enough.
Quote from: cr on March 28, 2015, 06:46:26 PM
Quote from: vomitgore on March 07, 2015, 11:14:17 AM
Also, the "Skandinavisk Misantropi" trilogy by Matias Faldbakken is pretty worthwhile. The approach is kind of absurd and over the top (comparable to stuff like "Trainspotting"), but especially the first two volumes are pretty dark at times.
I also read that trilogy and I thought it was quite entertaining. 'Kind of absurd and over the top' is a good description. What I always wondered is, how he is seen and received in the Scandinavian countries themselves? For example by those scandinavian people who frequent this forum.
It seems as if this perticular form of Scandinavian misanthrophy is easier to romanticise and market than, for example, the (particularly Finnish?) form of degeneration and perversion found in PE. I think that one of the cornerstones of most "misanthropic" art is that it's being played safe and brought across with a semi-moralistic touch, maybe even plain social criticism? I myself have started to dislike this kind of hipsteresque pessimism that works within moral standards, but I guess that's up to the reader.
Try the French film I Stand Alone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Stand_Alone_%28film%29) from Gaspar Noé.
(http://www.jonathanrosenbaum.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/istandaloneposter2.jpg)
I can't top it for misanthropy & there are other more curious angles to interest the Paraphiliacs; touching base w/ incest, filicide, and an enormously unhealthy nihilism in the protagonist, it covers quite a bit of ground. Shot very well and gives the impression it was made earlier - such is the unheimlich visual feel: it has a complimentary opaqueness affording it a gritty, warts and all credibility.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on February 21, 2015, 02:50:05 AM
Thomas Ligotti is considered a misanthropist. I know I've read one or two books of short stories but they didn't make much of an impression. "True Detective" was influenced by Ligotti's work (I hated TD).
The full force of Ligotti's anger/negativism/misanthropy/whatever (I think he generally refers to it as "pessimism") tends to come through with far greater clarity in his interviews. And his non-fiction magnus opus "The Conspiracy Against The Human Race". Spoiler alert: the conspiracy is evident in all manifestations of the lie that life is worth living, if I'm reading it right. (What I like best about TCATHR is that, throughout the text, he continuously refers to consciousness/life/nature as MALIGNANTLY USELESS, in block caps.)
Here's an interview on TCATHR:
http://mumpsimus.blogspot.jp/2007/10/conversation-with-thomas-ligotti.html
Of his fiction, the later writings, particularly Teatro Grottesco, are well superior to the earlier work such as Songs Of A Dead Dreamer.
"My body — a tumor that was once delivered from the body of another tumor, a lump of disease that is always boiling with its own disease. And my mind — another disease, the disease of a disease. Everywhere my mind sees the disease of other minds and other bodies, these other organisms that are only other diseases, an absolute nightmare of the organism." -Teatro Grottesco
Ligotti has also turned me on to several writers, including Thomas Bernhard here mentioned. Bernhard's fiction, which often takes the form of first person extended rant, is probably the most singularly angry (and entertaining!) I've ever encountered.
Of those unmentioned, may I highly recommend the Polish writer Stanislaw Ignacy Witkiewicz. From another recent Ligotti interview:
"As for Witkiewicz, I tend to admire and identify with writers who commit suicide, and he killed himself in really grand style....Ultimately, the most encompassing description of Witkiewicz's work that I can offer is that they are the most nihilistic I've ever read."
edit
Regarding the TD plagiarism controversy, see:
http://lovecraftzine.com/2014/08/04/did-the-writer-of-true-detective-plagiarize-thomas-ligotti-and-others/
(I never watched the show, nor will I, but I think the above article + video doesn't go far enough. I'd guess that the many interviews available online could be mined, very quickly- say, by some hack working against a deadline - for several quotations similar to those cited. Even a casual Ligotti reader will automatically recognize the style. As Ligotti puts it in an interview, "Style is the intersection between an author's choice of subject matter and what he does with that subject matter." Note also that the script writer did acknowledge the Ligotti inflence in early interviews but once the word "plagiarism" started floating around the only squeak on the subject was a very terse, lawyerly statement. No doubts in my mind, though I am obviously a biased fan whose views are therefore to be discounted.)
I like the cut of Leon Bloy's jib.
http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/07/14/disagreeable-tales/ (http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/07/14/disagreeable-tales/)
http://wakefieldpress.com/bloy_disagreeabl.html (http://wakefieldpress.com/bloy_disagreeabl.html)
Interesting how devoutly religious people can be the most misanthropic.
http://www.occidentalenclave.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=478 (http://www.occidentalenclave.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=478)
Quote(T)he curse must be aimed most directly and obviously at man: the avenging angle circles like the sun around this unhappy globe and lets one nation breathe only to strike at others. But when crimes, especially those of a particular kind, accumulate to a certain point, the angel relentlessly quickens his tireless flight. Like a rapidly turned torch, his immense speed allows him to be present at all points on his huge orbit at the same time. He strikes every nation on earth at the same moment. At other times, minister of an unerring and infallible vengeance, he turns against particular nations and bathes them in blood. Do not expect them to make any effort to escape or abridge their sentence. It is as if these sinful nations, enlightened by conscience, were asking for punishment and accepting it in order to find expiation in it. So long as they have blood left, they will come forward to offer it, and soon golden youth will grow used to telling of devastating wars caused by their fathers' crimes.
War is thus divine in itself, since it is a law of the world.
It must have been 10+ years since I read it the last time, but today I'm in the mood to start reading "Les Chants de Maldoror" again.
Re-read Sarah Kane's 4:48 Psychosis for the first time in a while.
http://rlmalvin.angelfire.com/KaneSarah448Psychosis.pdf
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on July 18, 2015, 11:03:55 AM
Interesting how devoutly religious people can be the most misanthropic.
http://www.occidentalenclave.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=478 (http://www.occidentalenclave.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=478)
Quote(T)he curse must be aimed most directly and obviously at man: the avenging angle circles like the sun around this unhappy globe and lets one nation breathe only to strike at others. But when crimes, especially those of a particular kind, accumulate to a certain point, the angel relentlessly quickens his tireless flight. Like a rapidly turned torch, his immense speed allows him to be present at all points on his huge orbit at the same time. He strikes every nation on earth at the same moment. At other times, minister of an unerring and infallible vengeance, he turns against particular nations and bathes them in blood. Do not expect them to make any effort to escape or abridge their sentence. It is as if these sinful nations, enlightened by conscience, were asking for punishment and accepting it in order to find expiation in it. So long as they have blood left, they will come forward to offer it, and soon golden youth will grow used to telling of devastating wars caused by their fathers' crimes.
War is thus divine in itself, since it is a law of the world.
J. de Maistre is the best. Another quote from him:
Quote"Who is this inexplicable being, who, when there are so many agreeable, lucrative, honest, and even honorable professions to choose among, in which a man can exercise his skill or his powers, has chosen that of torturing or killing his own kind? This head, this heart, are they made like our own? Is there not something in them that is peculiar, alien to our nature? Myself, I have no doubt about this. He is made like us externally. He is born like all of us. But he is an extraordinary being, and it needs a special decree to bring him into existence as a member of the human family—a fiat of creative power. He is created like a law unto himself [...] God, who has created sovereignty, has also made punishment [...]"
Georges Palante on "misanthropic pessimism".
https://www.marxists.org/archive/palante/1914/misanthropy.htm (https://www.marxists.org/archive/palante/1914/misanthropy.htm)
Finally got stuck into Ligotti's "The Conspiracy Against The Human Race" and as satisfactorily pessimistic as it is I get the underlying impression that his desire for omnicide is from compassion for humanity's suffering rather than contempt for humanity's existence. It's just fortunate that he is open about the fact that voluntary human extinction is totally off the collective agenda (consciously, at least) and that we will continue to live and suffer until we finally die, both individually and as a species. Also, he's writing for the sake of getting shit out of his system and into the public, which I applaud.
i like the review of that book will buy it soon
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on September 05, 2015, 04:48:52 PM
Finally got stuck into Ligotti's "The Conspiracy Against The Human Race" and as satisfactorily pessimistic as it is I get the underlying impression that his desire for omnicide is from compassion for humanity's suffering rather than contempt for humanity's existence.
I do often wonder about that. Have often wondered. Not to say that Ligotti's protestations on the side of compassion are insincere. This is the guy who once quipped (though I emphasize "quipped"), "I politically self-identify as a socialist. I want everyone to be as comfortable as they can be while they're waiting to die." I have no reason not to take him at his word.
But it is comments like the following which set the internal wheels in motion:
"Nabokov's statement that portraying an atheist as a decent person is a taboo subject in literature betrays his stance as someone who felt atheism to be an unjustly persecuted intellectual posture."
This is taken from what is probably Ligotti's most infamous interview, "Literature Is Entertainment Or It it Nothing", which road tests a lot of the ideas to be explored in TCATHR. Ligotti has repeatedly made clear, over the course of several interviews, that he feels pessimism to be an unjustly persecuted intellectual posture. What tends to follow is a shit-ton of words that might, en masse, amount to a shit-ton of pro-pessimist PR.
Before TCATHR was published, a pdf of the work-in-progress was made available to anyone registered to the ligotti.net fansite. Aside from containing one glaringly not-particularly-publishable (or at least, no particularly pluralist) choice of words, "corrected" in the published version (the surprise or shock registered by some readers was described by Ligotti as "exactly" the reaction he had intended...), the pdf contained several indexed quotations from one UG Krishnamurti. "UG" is a man, now deceased, who apparently claimed to have achieved ego-death- a man, in other words, who gave even less fuck than
THIS GUY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIOrQasR18). He comes off as quite a character, but the essence of his point, on the subject of ego-death, comes to this: "Yes, I really did achieve ego-death. No, I have no idea how that came about. It was pure fluke. No, you cannot do anything about it. I got lucky. You all are fucked. Now piss off, there's really nothing I can say to you that will help you except to repeat, ad nauseam: 'you all are fucked.'" I may be gravely misrepresenting UG's statements. But the fact that Ligotti chose such quotations for his magnum-opus-in-progress speaks volumes I think. If there are to be words of compassion from him, it is because there is, most assuredly, nothing to be had beyond lip service on the subject. We are all fucked. Now piss off.
(Heh. Just pulled this up from UG's wiki: "I am forced by the nature of your listening to always negate the first statement with another statement. Then the second statement is negated by a third and so on. My aim is not some comfy dialectical thesis but the total negation of everything that can be expressed." Think I will be reading more UG in the future.)
Ligotti's compassion is often set up in opposition to forces typically regarded as pro-human or pro-life. That is to say, in opposition to the merciless forces of positivity (of creativity*), of nature. At the end of his short story "Sideshow, and Other Stories" the narrator overcomes his crippling writer's block, an ending which one interviewer describes as "unfamiliarly positive". TL offers the following analysis: "To my mind, the narrator's eagerness to continue writing is actually quite monstrous. At the same time, it is, as you say, very positive. In my observation, the most monstrous and vile people are those who are filled with energy and confidence. The more energy and confidence they have, the more monstrous they are. These people make life miserable for those of us who have doubts about everything we do and above all about existence itself."
Going back to the quip: "I politically self-identify as a socialist. I want everyone to be as comfortable as they can be while they're waiting to die."
It continues thusly:
"Unfortunately, the major part of Western civilization consists of capitalists, whom I regard as unadulterated savages. As long as we have to live in this world, what could be more sensible than to want yourself and others to suffer as little as possible? This will never happen because too many people are unadulterated savages. They're brutal and inhuman. Case in point: Why is euthanasia so despised?Answer: Because too many people are barbaric sons of bitches."
I can (and will, with little encouragement) go on endlessly, but this quotation from short story "The Shadow, The Darkness" might endarkenate:
"There could never be anything written about the 'conspiracy against the human race' because the phenomenon of a conspiracy requires a multiplicity of agents, a division of sides, one of which is undermining the other in some way and the other having an existence that is able to be undermined. But there is no such multiplicity or division, no undermining or resistance or betrayal on either side. What exists is only this pulling, this tugging upon all the bodies of this world. But these bodies have a collective existence only in a taxonomic or perhaps a topographical sense and in no way constitute a collective entity, an agency that might be the object of a conspiracy. And a collective entity called the human race cannot exist where there is only a collection of non-entities, of bodies which are themselves only provisional and will be lost one by one, the whole collection of them always approaching nonsense, always dissolving in dreams.
"...There was only this consuming, proliferating blackness whose only true and final success was in merely perpetuating itself as successfully as it could in a world where nothing exists that could ever hope to be anything else except what it needs to thrive upon."
(A wee bit more discussion on the above
HERE (http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=2449).
* noise is entertainment or it is nothing?
"I politically self-identify as a socialist. I want everyone to be as comfortable as they can be while they're waiting to die."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/05/americas/venezuela-expensive-condoms-shortage/index.html
...but I would agree that Ligotti does not come off as particularly misanthropic. Still it is hard to deny that a lot of these characters -pessimists, nihilists, miserablists - tend to speak the same language. Ligotti eventually gave up trying to reject accusations that he was a "nihilist" (or any other appellation one might care to pin), turning about to readily and regularly conflate the whole brood with whom he identifies as those who would question the cherished notion that life is worth living. (Words to this effect, credited to Ray Brassier, appear on the TCATHR dust-jacket.) So take your pick. Misanthropist, socialist, pessimist, nihilist, antihumanist, miserablist, depressive, hater. Go right ahead. I'm just gratified whenever someone has the "audacity" to shit on the common story.
It may also be worth noting, as Ligotti has, that the negatorian, the EM Cioran, the Thomas Bernhard, the Brassier... must necessarily write with a "sterling and entertaining prose" (says the shameless hack).
Appreciate Bloated Slutbag's thoughts.
There's a lot of over-lap between the labels, certainly, although I think there are still some distinctions. Personally I quite like the notion of "miserablism", which is, as I understand it, almost an enjoyment of the negative attitude one takes towards everything.
It might be because I started out as an idealist then burnt out, but I'm seeing something of that in Ligotti, too. His attitude towards humanity definitely seems one more of pity and sympathy than disgust, which was much more the attitude Lovecraft took (I don't want to downplay his racism but I tend to see that as more a part of his general misanthropy). Wanting to end it all because one wants to end suffering is still wanting to end suffering.
What I dig is that he doesn't take some bullshit "above it all" attitude. To him, a human's still a human, which is a reasonable call. I notice in the interview you mention he talks of taking anti-depressants, so he's open about suffering from depression enough to want to do something about it. That's also perfectly reasonable, although in my view there comes a time when, if you do have depression, you need to grasp the black dog by the tail and admit that it is a part of you that will never be "cured". This is where a sardonic attitude towards one's own disgust at everything can help, at least for a while.
I also dig that he admits omnicide will never happen voluntarily (although there are plenty of other options) for the reasons he wants it to. He admits his extremism is just that, and takes no romantic notion towards it.
Interesting the concept of entertainment is brought up. I'm all for it. When you reject any notion of any out-and-out "truths" to strive towards, you may as well get off on what you can. Noise is entertainment or nothing? I think so, as long as one realises that there is such a thing as good entertainment.
Quote from: Peterson on February 20, 2015, 06:07:36 PM
Martin Scorcese's 1976 masterpiece "Taxi Driver." My VHS copy reads "A Psychotic Cab Driver Is Driven To Violence" as the description. If you haven't already seen it, it's got everything you're looking for.
My favorite film as a teenager.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on February 21, 2015, 02:50:05 AM
Thomas Ligotti is considered a misanthropist. I know I've read one or two books of short stories but they didn't make much of an impression. "True Detective" was influenced by Ligotti's work (I hated TD).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Ligotti
"Songs of a Dead Dreamer" is the book I know I've read. It may be the only one. I'd like to read the book TD took the stick-figures from but most of his books are high priced.
I find many of his short stories to be quite good, some are great. Certain stories such as "The Last Feast Of Harlequin" and "The Medusa" have left a major impression.
I believe Ligotti has mentioned his fondness for Emil Cioran
Bought 'Grimscribe' some weeks ago. I'm curious to read it.
Had a problem with the link to the note from the web page. Would it be possible to upload of file of it somewhere?
Thank you, and my apologies for being so dense.
For a long time I've thought this site needs a function that show a link. I've been meaning to request it for some time.
QuoteI propose opening your mind towards the liberation of
death; towards exposing this blind faith in life as a myth, a
bias, and an error. To overcome this delusion, the "magic
spell" of pious reverence for life over death must be broken.
To do so is to examine the faith in life that has been left
unexamined; the naïve (sic) secular and non-secular faith in life
over death.
Nice.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on April 04, 2015, 05:05:56 PM
The Antinatalism Hall Of Fame (http://www.knunst.com/planetzapffe/?page_id=180) may be of interest.
Not that I'd necessarily want to conflate antinatalism and misanthropy, but a lot of the same names tend to crop up- preeminent among them the Norwegian philosopher Peter Wessel Zapffe.
Zapffe's The Last Messiah essay (http://www.knunst.com/planetzapffe/?page_id=1093)
Thanks for mentioning Zapffe! In the last weeks I thought a lot about his strategies to minimize our consciousness: ISOLATION, ANCHORING, DISTRACTION, SUBLIMATION. Also plays a big part in Ligotti's Conspiracy against the human race
I'll take sublimination any day. Not that there's much of a choice, but the same can be said for living anyway.
Yeah, if there would be a choice, I'll take sublimation too. But I also think those strategies are all somehow intervowen. Within a year, a month, a week, a day, ... it can change from sublimation to distraction to anchoring or isolation, without your conscious decision.
Sorry, my English is not good enough to describe it any better and not to sound like a total twat.
What I like is, that there was somebody who 'hit the nail on the head' with four simple words.
No, you're English is adequate enough. Suffice to say such choices are very seldom if ever conscious. Usually people come up with some kind of fluff to fill the void that is in everyone as a matter of course. I'd say it's even instinctive - after all, people need some kind of linear "reason" to exist that is both emotionally satisfying and comprehensible.
Ligotti points out in "The Conspiracy..." that Tolstoy actually came up with four similar coping strategies for existence. So I think Zapffe was onto something.
I think German writer Ulrich Horstmann should also be mentioned here. It's been quite some years since I read 'Das Untier, Konturen einer Philosophie der Menschenflucht' ('The Beast, Contours of a philosophy of human flight'), but I remember liking it a lot. Not sure if his books are also available in English.
He also edited a book with texts from Philipp Mainländer some years ago.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_Horstmann
"The final aim of history is a crumbling field of ruins. It's final meaning is the sand blown through the eye-holes of human skulls."