Granted, talking of any sort of "brotherhood" will awake quite expected comments. One may associate it with typical "bro's", kind of underground hermits view on group of jocks he never felt like belonging.
Still, anyone reading this forum (or any!), would be some sort of hypocrite to claim to operate solely in solitude and without need of belonging to group. What level belonging goes, can be different, but nevertheless its there.
Even seemingly "anti-social" forms of noise, like isolated man doing noise, often can be seen in form of establishing connections with like-minded people, all around the world. Networks that may be lifelong, possibly much deeper and intense than some local crew someone sees at bar. Even releasing material itself seems like reaching out, very often in aim to reach very specific group. If you wouldn't aim to reach people, why bother to "release"? It would be utterly useless.
I don't remember was there topic of why one releases stuff (there has been quite recently one about keeping material private), but if not, maybe this will cover a bit of that too.
It don't think there is almost any (noise-)underground activity what would be solely based on idea of making income. Especially making noise to gain profit seems like most useless idea there is. Some may be able to do it on level of distribution or publishing, but it hardly is motivating factor, especially not in making of stuff.
Organizing festival and losing money doing so, is hardly a loss when on plus side is much more relevant things. Putting out album what hardly sold that much, but is considered among people one considers to know their shit as vital and crucial album of our times, can be much more satisfactory. Going all the way, across the world to play show for 20 people may be well satisfactory due other reasons than few bucks someone possibly gave you.
Die-hard individualist may ask, why one requires affirmation of group, instead of relying on oneself. One could reply..... what? As men has formed friendship and alliances since dawn of man, seek to build something that goes beyond one mans limitations. Cumulation of information, ideas, advice, energy... of course there may be few leeches who just want the same old personal glory, without true input to earn it. But those can be smoked out in blink of an eye.
Even vast amount of self declared individualist appear to seek to be focus on attention of the rest, but I believe in context of noise/p.e., I have to conclude that those who remain consciously outside, seem to have lost their sense of quality, level and true innovation. It's hard to put ones work to perspective, if there is little if anything to compare. Being among brotherhood of some kind, one may be in touch of what is happening. Being interested what has been done, wha is being done, can easily drop the egoistic delusional master back to lowest level of kaos-pad wankers. Perhaps he will find confort from ideas such as "anyone can do anything", "there is no good or bad, it's all subjective", "it's not that serious, just doing whatever", while those involved for life, may see different perspective.
We see often that some of the more "higher profile artists" (noise and other) seem to be ones most eagar to go through every reaction on their works. Reporting and reposting stuff, perhaps with little butthurt if someone didn't quite get it. While they may look down crew of bro's (heh..), their lack of disapproval often seems to cause more hurt than one simply knowing his place.
Curious thing was for example reading one interview in FETISH RITUAL 'zine, where artist concluded that he is perfectly fine to know that he will never be next Whitehouse or next NON, and there will be very few people who give a fuck. Small edition tapes circulate only in hands of very few likeminded people who are excited to trade internationally these relatively anonymous tapes. And it really appeared like there is almost like brotherhood of certain small new tape labels across the world, who may cross over to rest, but not depending on it.
Coming from different era and approch, I can personally only take look from outside. Some really good stuff, other not so good, but most crucial seems to be that they are forming new brotherhood, not crying the recognition from the jaded veterans and established magazines etc.
Noise will always be a personal part of me. Regardless of what stage I go through - harsh, death, light, destruction - Noise doesn't go. So I've got no doubts about that.
As for brotherhood - that can come and go, for me. Of course I like to have links with people and of course I get a kick if someone listens to what I record but if I have none of that I'm not going to pretend it's the end of everything for me. I prefer solidarity but I deal with solitude.
Being anti-social comes about as a reaction to being rejected. No one likes it, no one likes to even admit it. But if this what we call Noise, for want of anything else, is a part of us, we're going to keep trying and keep offering in some way or another. At least I know I do. Almost in defiance of rejection if need be.
But it's always there. Always a part of me and whoever else has the same lusts. You know who you are. As I was writing to a friend of mine involved in this kind of thing just recently, you can't help it. And why would you want to? Meaning is what we make it but if there's something there it imposes itself. For me, that something is Noise. If it leads to solidarity with comrades, great. If it doesn't, I deal with that too.
Very good thread, I won't share personal experiences, just some wonderings. Today with internet everything is easier to do, produce/release, but also, it seems to come with a "disposable/effortless" tag, I mean, if you don't release tapes you are pretty much not a "valid" noise artist, you are just an internet wanker. And, well, 99% is just that, so, why worry, right?
But then I see folks that, in other less user friendly times would at least get some recognition, like Meat Glue. His noise, his drive, his aesthetic... It may seen too schizo, but to me he really brings a lot of that "fuck off/don't care/this is me" style that well crafted and produced dark imagerie/sounds lack. Noise went to the darker side, maybe because metalheads started to getting into it more and more, but what seems like pure harsh noise spirit to me is the one of individuals doing something without care for image, without cohesion perhaps, not taking it as any other genre but an extesion of heir own self. Tom Baker of Meat Glue seems to me like the kind of artist that encompasses a lot of that. He isn't cool, he isn't dark, he doesn't follows a pre-determined path or the perceived as the "right one" perhaps. He may seem all over the place and keeping up with him is very hard, yet he soldiers on and is just solid, in his own way. It's easy to like artists that sound like A or B, but it's hard to find this kind of honesty and harder to grasp it perhaps. I didn't participated on the "golden years of noise" so, my thoughts are limited to my own perception.
I just feel that, not a lot, but some of the internet schizo all over the place free noise artists are doing something that should be observed with more, idk, respect and effort. I may cite God Pussy, a fellow brazilian noise artist who releases a lot, plays live a lot and just get immersed in noise and attained a particular sound or sound identity that should be recognized. Instead, it's the one's "regulating" their input and using underground marketing tools that are on the spotlight.
To me, it is the essence of noise is this, and it's being overlooked because it seems so cheap and effortless to the kvlt crowd, but, if these guys were making noise, idk, 15 or 20 years from now, with the limitations that now we take as "professional condut", in my opinion they would receive a lot more praise.
Everything just seems to went too professional, too calculated, too formulaic. Maybe I am drifting from the original post, sorry, I am kind of drunk.
Anyway, here in Brazil, being as big as it is, being as poor as it is and lacking so much msuci education (or anti-music education) I feel lost, alone. I don't really feel as part of the more academic kind of noise that "make things happen here" and the ones I identify it are few and far away. Or maybe I am doing something wrong, since I can't even get on a noisecore band in Brazil.
Edit: I did shared some personal experience, I guess. :)
I am not an artist and I run a small and extremally niche label only. Maybe my view is limited in this matter but I don't accept any more or less formalized groups, brotherhood etc. I don't feel good in such situations. I prefer to be the most hated and unwanted person... Luckily I managed to achieve this aim... Mainly in Polish circles of noise / experimental music.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 21, 2015, 08:23:46 AM
I prefer to be the most hated and unwanted person... Luckily I managed to achieve this aim...
Heh... I would guess this aim is among many brotherhoods out there. As a label operation, within scene, one hardly can be utterly hated or unwanted?
I think there is difference of between social side, how it operates in brotherhood vs. "workshop"-type. While latter is kind of
lets all have fun, come as you are, brotherhood generally becomes from at least some standard of qualification. Loose collective interest where all is not welcomed for reason or another (even if one woud not express any overt hostility) : Genre itself works as one automated criteria. Difference of for example "local crowd" kind of music scenes where it's purely social gathering where all is welcomed, and while specific types (call it kvlt crowd if you will, heh) seek to gather based on some more specific common idea.
It's matter of perspective what to call "herd" or mass. Some believe that they are outside herd as unique individuals, but this mass of unique individuals is plain huge herd (if I was to observe its nature).
Quote from: Sleep of Ages on June 21, 2015, 12:33:40 AM
To me, it is the essence of noise is this, and it's being overlooked because it seems so cheap and effortless to the kvlt crowd, but, if these guys were making noise, idk, 15 or 20 years from now, with the limitations that now we take as "professional condut", in my opinion they would receive a lot more praise.
Everything just seems to went too professional, too calculated, too formulaic.
One can cry attention for making best noise there is, but if format is mp3 files shared at blog, it will not get attention from crowd who appreciates tape or LP sold by artist (and perhaps other way round). If it's only available from some professional dance-music wholesalers, and not within scene (so to say), result may be slightly similar. It's perhaps paraller phenomena.
But I would agree on professionalism anyways. I probably said it elsewhere, but never was fan of "myspace labels", and neither fan of current labels that operate on some holy triangle of bandcamp+bigcartel+facebook... It seems all so
the same. Drag'n'drop graphics to generic templates and perhaps paypal button below it, seems little too far from
communication? Of course, step by step, becoming the same, hah..
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 21, 2015, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 21, 2015, 08:23:46 AM
I prefer to be the most hated and unwanted person... Luckily I managed to achieve this aim...
Heh... I would guess this aim is among many brotherhoods out there. As a label operation, within scene, one hardly can be utterly hated or unwanted?
I think, at least I know these only, in brotherhoods dominates method to brown-nose each other usually. Besides there is a need to be good looking and good treated by other scenes. This is a piece of shit and I reject that.
As a label operation I needn't to be part of any brotherhoods. But, yes, I am, among Polish scene, the most hated and unwanted person :) Luckily, I am not important here, only music and artists which I have been releasing.
And this situation is very interesting for me.
It is natural for me to prefer who has my same interests regarding music, sex, aestetic and general outlook on life than those who don't. Since the hardcore days being part of a network gives asense of brotherhood, sometimes you get disappointed (think about creeps like Dan Ghetu) but most of the time I have been lucky and felt this sense of, if not brotherhood, alliance.
Sometime it is difficult to stay in touch as you would like, but you know you can count on some people even if you disappear for a while.
I can really understand the fact that people overlook free download releases, most of the stuff is crap. I am really going another direction here, because I am putting the "format" of the release first, as I wonder when exactly it reached the point where noise "grown up", lost that initial spirit (whatever it was) and became a lot more about the way you release/record/present yourself. I may be wrong, tho, I didn't lived those times.
Anyway, internet seems to be a tool that works backwards in some ways: it makes social interaction easier but also not necessary, so it's easier to be a recluse, you don't need to make yourself noticed in a more personal scale and you don't grow relationships if you are not interested in that. The information is easily available too, so, you get "heads up" and "tips" from anonymous web people, from searching randomly or just "stalking" forums. A sense of brotherhood will mostly be made by people close to each other who can organize something IRL, I guess. It's easy to have hundreds of releases in several labels, have lots of splits and not being "close" to any of that, also because constant stream of releases may be some type of "forcing" itself as a relevant act. That in noise and HNW mostly, I don't have that much experience with PE people, but it does seem more organized in it's very nature. But, anyway, just conjectures from a internet hermit.
Where I live, there's an obligation to see a decent show everyday for what has to be months. Providence is a pretty small city and I think there is something to it that makes it so ridiculously active, and I'm guessing its the scene here or something. Each time I see Work/Death attending a show, he goes "Just another night in Providence" and I'm understanding that more and more as time goes on.
It is getting to the point of feeling like Dante's Inferno type of ironic punishments. I am getting burned out of shows and fests and breaks my heart a little bit. Before that I was in place that had something of that nature once every 3-5 months. Even if you were not thrilled of everyone on the bill, you didn't have fuck to do otherwise. And if I did a set, it was very important, and I would practice for a few days. When I started, it was because I was unsatisfied with what I was surrounding by and did what I wished to experience. Now I my cup overfloweth with that experience.
Now I play live way more than I practice and it's been hard to figure out anything new since I moved here. But I get to open for Sissy Spacek and The Rita in next couple of months so I feel like I shouldn't complain at all and not be ungrateful for recognition. But I feel like I compromised something moving here. Like I don't have something to prove to myself anymore. Someone told me that is basically the experience of the musician becomes professional.
I realize this post is more about me whining existentially more than thoughts on a so called "brotherhood", but I do miss being surrounded in nothing but my ideas and my own language. I think the merit of being a hermit is having a preserved identity of sorts.
The way FreakAnimalFinland describes this, it sounds as if things might be cycling back to the mail art movement of the 1970s and 1980s, but that was also birthed out of manipulating that period's technology in ways it hadn't necessarily intended. The format was a means to an end, not so much a centerpiece, though it could be integrated into the centerpiece. I would have to think that mindset applied today would find its way to dropbox and cloud exchange. It's interesting how almost all underground/DIY movements, from krautrock to minimalist synth to punk and noise, were excited to get their hands on the newest technologies and find ways to twist it into a tool. It was almost all built on anti-nostalgia. Very forward looking. It did, admittedly, involve stuff. Humans like to amass stuff. To consume things. I wonder if those same mail art participants of decades past would have embraced file sharing or would they have still needed the physical object? I know a lot of the tape trading culture (live recordings) couldn't wait to shed the physical object. They couldn't wait to pounce on and devour the next technology. What I'm saying here is that it is interesting how the previous generation, which was inhibited by the physical object, seemed to deeply desire breaking away from it, while this generation, which has the technology to be free from it, deeply desires to be imprisoned by it.
Too tangential? Apologies if it is. I couldn't stop thinking about cycles.
You cant just have the same expirience from files and few .jpg files as you can from tape or vinyl with extensive artwork, handmade, xerox, whatever. Of course there is the consumerism/hoarding aspect too but I think that comes after becoming hooked on the first part, at least for me. It used to be that mp3's were enough but then I received the drs - burning black infinity 2xlp and things havent been same since.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 22, 2015, 11:20:27 PM
It was almost all built on anti-nostalgia. Very forward looking. It did, admittedly, involve stuff.
I would assume that already in '78, at least couple years later there was lots of people thinking how much better '77 was, heh.... And already then build new things with aim to bring back certain ideals.
But I see what you mean. I would just point out that each situation happens in different time. Punk also reacted on things such as seeing that progressive rock had taken things to wrong direction.
I do not belong to people who consider that linear view is only possibility. As if "future" would only happen when distancing yourself from things that have once happened in some form. It's like thinking that one should be doing nowadays photoshop paintings, and not use watercolors, as it's such just looking into past. Time consuming and difficult! Who has time? Just some plugin's and that'll do the trick. Tools and methods what are good, are certainly valid for purpose. I certainly don't oppose files being sold, or distributed for free. One can just trust that it only reaches one part. A lot of people simply do not get anything from idea of "free mp3".
Quote from: EXU on June 22, 2015, 04:57:35 PM
I wonder when exactly it reached the point where noise "grown up", lost that initial spirit (whatever it was) and became a lot more about the way you release/record/present yourself. I may be wrong, tho, I didn't lived those times.
It's hard to say what is the "initial spirit"? As far as I observe, noise was always about "release/record" and in some ways also "present yourself" (this meaning band, not the artists mundane personality). For a lot of noise makers, there was nothing else. No gigs. No people around. Only passion to record obscure sounds, and only way to get them heard was to record and release. Get in touch with people, distributors etc. some effort why would anyone be interested in hearing. Not all, but many, put a lot of time and effort to make release.
I would think its far later in genre history, when noise became something else. Question would be of course is it about "growing up" when some noise or related groups now operate also in regular music business. Itunes, spotify, etc. and most take part in biggest social networks and merchant services.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 23, 2015, 09:14:16 AM
But I see what you mean. I would just point out that each situation happens in different time. Punk also reacted on things such as seeing that progressive rock had taken things to wrong direction.
I do not belong to people who consider that linear view is only possibility. As if "future" would only happen when distancing yourself from things that have once happened in some form.
If that was how I came across, then my err. By forward thinking, I didn't want to imply it was also without influence or outside of reaction. That is next to impossible, not only in the physical world, but in the social realm as well. Something propels another thing. Quality isn't usually the outcome, but the perception of things and how those perceptions are associated with other perceptions. Extraordinary alchemy is at the root of interesting and great art.
I almost deleted my first post. I talked to a couple people about it, and all kinds of messiness and lack of sophistication was flushed out of it. Feel free to punch holes. I'm interested.
It's not my usual habit to be lazy and remark "too long didn't read" but I will state that some people over-think things a bit.
Quote(T)here is no 'audience' for the scene because the scene is the audience.
- pretty much sums it up, but it also just blurs distinctions a bit. I have no problem going to a gig as a punter or just buying or downloading something as a punter. I take more for my need than contribute to my ability. I'm usually more "audience" than "scene".
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 24, 2015, 03:50:35 AMI will state that some people over-think things a bit.
He's got a graduate degree in philosophy. He thinks these thoughts so we don't have to.
By those two useful contributions, could this forum and everything in it surely serve as a perfect example of just that?
He is actually just a long term fan and participant of something who writes about it for fun to quite a few people who are interested. That particular article comes from his previous writing having gained a bit of notice in other publications and talks so if it seems a bit overly complex and wordy this could be why. Still, no better or worse a way to fill ones time than a grumpy commentary on the latest politically correct issue or a rambling diatribe on Japanese Noise eh? Though these are two completely randomly picked examples.
Quote from: Brad on June 24, 2015, 08:21:20 PM
I'm 100% audience. Not because I prefer it this way, I just don't know the first thing about how to start a project, and I probably don't really have time to anyway. From my perspective the noise brotherhood is real, and something I'd like to belong to, but I certainly don't.
I remember now there was a thread on this forum started by someone who was basically asking if they could be counted as part of the scene even though he didn't actually produce anything - didn't have a project, a distro, a label, a zine, any of that. Can't remember what my own response to that was at the time, but in the light of this thread it's still an interesting question.
Obviously even a tiny scene like this can have its audience. There's always going to be people who just show up to gigs or buy the "merch" because they dig the sounds. People like that shouldn't feel obliged to be a part of anything. And who could complain about someone coming to your gigs or buying your releases who isn't doing it out of some notion of "scene unity" or, dare I suggest, "brotherhood", but because they just dig what you do?
I've been listening to experimental music for about 16 years and I've never made music myself, nor have I felt the need to. I'm perfectly happy "just" buying releases and discovering new music. I also only have basically one friend who has a somewhat similar interest in music as me, and even he lives in another country, so we only communicate by email. I'd love to know people or have friends with similar tastes in music, but I'm used to this not being the case, so I'm quite fine with it. Am I part of any kind of brotherhood? To say I am would be a long stretch. The only forum I'm a member of is Special Interests, and that's my only exposure to people with a similar taste. I'll probably never be more involved in a music scene, but I'm fine with that.
There's a brotherhood.
I remember playing one of my first international festivals and thinking that I'll never see a lot of these people again in my lifetime.
BUT - After years of international touring, festivals, etc. it becomes almost a usual occurrence to run into colleagues I can now say are lifelong friends.
It's almost surreal, especially since many of us live on different sides of the globe. I consider myself very lucky.
I think that "brotherhood" is something more than a standard group of people who share similar interests / music / aesthetic. I don't want to go deeper in this academic, barren debate about "what does it mean brotherhood?" but there is very important difference, in my opinion. Besides, every member of this "brotherhood" has different expectations and hopes in case of that music/art/aesthetic - audience is on the other level, publishers on different and artists in next micro world. I don't see any "brotherhood" here.
Plenty of noise brother/sisterhood in my world yep. Noise + friendship/community brings together a lot of very different people from different backgrounds who would probably never meet let alone get on with each otherwise ha.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on June 25, 2015, 09:18:40 PM
"Brotherhood" is bullshit. You have friends and pen pals or contacts. And any of those people can fuck off at any time & you'll never hear from them again.
Brutal but true. I share this opinion.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on June 25, 2015, 09:18:40 PM
"Brotherhood" is bullshit. You have friends and pen pals or contacts. And any of those people can fuck off at any time & you'll never hear from them again.
With owed money
I guess it's now semantics.
'Allies', 'friends', 'brotherhood', etc. Some people closer than others.
I was simply basing my comment on Mikko's initial defintion(s):
QuoteEven seemingly "anti-social" forms of noise, like isolated man doing noise, often can be seen in form of establishing connections with like-minded people, all around the world. Networks that may be lifelong, possibly much deeper and intense than some local crew someone sees at bar.
All I know is that some of the most fucked, insane, life affirming experiences personally have been spent with close harsh noise colleagues; overseas touring, recording sessions, investing in a project or otherwise; and it always happens to be with the same guys.
well in my experience it didn't go exactly like this. probably we had radically different experiences and I have been luckier....
I have met many people due to the same tastes to then share partly the same outlook on life, discovering to have always more in common and maybe having to deal with the same shit/difficulties that definitely help making things closer...
many of these peope I feel a little bit than simple pen pals or drinking buddies went through the same shit during the 90's due to UNPC concepts (and when I say UNPC I don't mean a more acceptable way of being politically involved, I really mean generally unacceptable topics that we are all acquainted with on this forum) and gender-bender-antithis/antithat-savethecow-fightopppressionwithoppression, cried about succeeding in closing gigs or worse attacking them, sometime succeeding in making real damages or attacking person 10 to 1, I could make several examples of this, but I think we had already discussed about it and I am not attempting to present myself as an hero, since I am probably better at running than at fighting, but being there with some of these pepople, witnessing pressure from do-gooders based on lies, probably made us feel a cultural trench and we are still all in contact after many years and we have been supporting each other when in need...
this is a radical example, other people become very close in completely different situation and sharing level went much deeper than simple exchanging mails...
I could do several other examples, but I repeat, this might be my own personal experience...
Quote from: THE RITA HN on June 25, 2015, 10:30:11 PM
I guess it's now semantics.
'Allies', 'friends', 'brotherhood', etc. Some people closer than others.
That's how this discussion looks to me, too. Different qualifiers to each person. Different situations informing definitions to each person. Each person having different social capacities. etc.
Trying to share my work with others has forced me to be more social, and although there have been some foibles (mostly on my part), it has been a very positive experience in my life, and there is a certain sense of camaraderie.
I do not identify with noise as a scene really, but people that I have encountered (and more importantly, the work I have encountered) has often been an enriching thing, and I have great respect and even a feeling of perhaps brotherhood with those that have dedicated themselves to it for the most part. Whether the feeling is mutual or not, that is a case-by-case situation, but I am glad for the existence of the noise/industrial underground.
Quote from: Cementimental on June 25, 2015, 05:05:06 PM
Plenty of noise brother/sisterhood in my world yep. Noise + friendship/community brings together a lot of very different people from different backgrounds who would probably never meet let alone get on with each otherwise ha.
My experience as well.
Not sure how I feel about something as full-fledged as brotherhood, but after primarily trying to please myself, I'm usually trying to impress local noise / whatever performers / musicians with what I do, maybe not so much when it comes to choices as much as just a high level of execution.
I can think of a few moments where very slight words of praise were applied to projects of mine by people far outside of or just overlooked by the noise mainstream (as preposterous as the idea of a noise mainstream might be). No social contact of any type involved with these people. Very gratifying and validating. Any interest is flattering of course.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 22, 2015, 11:20:27 PM
The way FreakAnimalFinland describes this, it sounds as if things might be cycling back to the mail art movement of the 1970s and 1980s, but that was also birthed out of manipulating that period's technology in ways it hadn't necessarily intended. The format was a means to an end, not so much a centerpiece, though it could be integrated into the centerpiece. I would have to think that mindset applied today would find its way to dropbox and cloud exchange. It's interesting how almost all underground/DIY movements, from krautrock to minimalist synth to punk and noise, were excited to get their hands on the newest technologies and find ways to twist it into a tool. It was almost all built on anti-nostalgia. Very forward looking. It did, admittedly, involve stuff. Humans like to amass stuff. To consume things. I wonder if those same mail art participants of decades past would have embraced file sharing or would they have still needed the physical object? I know a lot of the tape trading culture (live recordings) couldn't wait to shed the physical object. They couldn't wait to pounce on and devour the next technology. What I'm saying here is that it is interesting how the previous generation, which was inhibited by the physical object, seemed to deeply desire breaking away from it, while this generation, which has the technology to be free from it, deeply desires to be imprisoned by it.
When we are talking about use of technology, I think there should be a distinction between the process of putting the sound materials together and the release format. With the former, I'd say that most of those involved are using tech galore. The release format, however... is what it is. The comparison to art proper is valid here since art... is what it is. How it interacts with technology may be a point of interest, and, there again, may not. Trends are not always the easiest thing to gauge, especially when the numbers we're talking about are so non-significant. Loud Louder Loudest features Facialmess Soundcloud offerings alongside proper "releases" and in the netcast format the distinction is lost. Works for me. The only thing stopping much more of that tech-savvy stuff from happening is... well, nothing, actually. I don't see any trend, I see limited numbers of people consistently involved.
The above could be taken as an indirect endorsement of the no audience argument and I'd have no probs with that. Most of the "deeper" observations offered thus far are partially contingent on the essential point that size (or lack thereof) matters.
Still when it comes to music, there might be a little more going on. Consider for the moment three cherished commodities: sex, drugs, rock'n'roll. Of the three, the latter is probably the only one whose marketability may be linked most readily to a sense of community. Or put another way, outside of what some might call "worthless cocksuck of capitalism" - that is to say, the marketability and comorbid suspicion that one is participating in a massive conjob - it's hard to see the point. Let me rephrase: it's hard to see the fucking point. Sex, easy. Drugs, easier still. Music? Really hard to see the motherfucking point. There's a thread here on how the sound somehow makes you want to move. Um, yeah right. I mean, as one of those people who seems incapable of sitting still at events I'm hardly one to talk, but quite often the only coherent thing going through my mind is "this is fucking retarded". Under these circumstances- eg this is pointless and possibly fucking retarded- a safe fall-back would probably be the community, or Brotherhood if you will. A Brotherhood of those who can be confidently relied upon to identify with certain strains of (pointless) indulgence, and moreover, just to give this a little rhetorical spin, where every extreme- in relation to, for instance, technology or society- is to be applauded, even encouraged, as this may assist in preserving the hallowed circles of Brotherdom. Let it be said, when it comes to making a point of being pointless, the Brotherhood doesn't fuck around.