One of those lazy sunday afternoon brainstorming discussions.
Do you buy musically good records made by artists (or released by labels) you think are total fucking assholes in person (or have completely different political/religious/whatever views than yours)? Does that even matter? Or vice versa, do you buy records from artists that you feel like being nice people even if the records themselves ain't that good, just to support the scene or friends?
I, personally, don't usually judge records by their makers personalities or views. Musical quality is the determining factor. I've bought some records released by people with totally different opinions from mine but that's not an issue for me. But on few rare occasions I've made a decision of buying some records 2nd hand from some poor individual instead of buying them straight from artists/labels. Recently I borrowed a certain band's cds from library and made myself cdr copies with xeroxed covers only because I thought the band's leading figure was a complete twat. I've done that few times before and I'll surely do it again... no regrets. But, as I said before, it usually doesn't matter.
Sometimes I've made a charity work of bying a so-so release only because I feel like they are worth supporting or just nice blokes (assuming the music is stylishly something I normally would listen). But that's something I rarely do anymore.
I have a feeling that the latter happens more often, especially in small and more insider scenes (applies to all genres).
I buy music that I like, that appeals to me, or that gives me an erection or a smile or all the above. I couldn't care less about everything else ultimately.
The views, personalities, ideology, concepts are all important and interesting don't get me wrong, but it has absolutely no affect ultimately in my decision of how and who I listen to . It can definitely be a factor for me being interested more or less, but on the opposite end of the spectrum I definitely do not get 'offended' or butthurt over different views, opposing opinions, sensationalism etc nor is it a deciding factor in if I'll support them or not, whereas what they produce and how it affects me is what is actually important.
Frankly, I think that in any area of life, if you went by the rule of "I disagree therefore I avoid," you'd be an SJW type person. Plenty of opposing political and spiritual/religious views, etc., among the stuff I purchase, listen, what have you - Bad Brains and Skrewdriver happen to be equally important bands to me. I listen to tons of music from folks who lead lifestyles I tend to try hard avoiding exposure to, for example Eyehategod. Another angle on that is that I am a huge fan of Metallica since I was a little kid, but there is no way Hetfield or Ulrich are getting a dime from me, they don't need the money - I'd much rather buy their stuff 2nd-hand. Also, I guess I can safely say that anything involving ultra-trendy hipsters, post-punk artfags, emo kids, and dirty smelly crust punkers I tend to avoid due to overt personal biases against people I'd like to punch in the mouth or worse.
I don't know, I like Hanson records a fair amount but could complain a lot about some of the titles, the label descriptions, etc., but that kind of closed-mindedness and narrow view of what things should or shouldn't be is not really why I'm interested in music, period. On the other hand, I wouldn't really care if someone was to notice the things I gravitate toward follow a predictable pattern. I just get what I like, what seems new and wild to me or appeals to me already, and I actively try to go outside what's typical for me, I guess.
My biases have a lot to do with things, but I try to step outside them whenever it's reasonable to do so.
Quote from: Peterson on December 12, 2016, 01:19:49 AM
My biases have a lot to do with things, but I try to step outside them whenever it's reasonable to do so.
Well said, your post said it much better then mine, as does just this sentence too. I think it's important to make sure that your own biases and perceptions are not causing you to limit what you're exposing yourself to or what you're into. I have no problem listening to old jazz or southern gangster rap and then jumping to Der Sturmer or Skrewdriver, not because " Look at me, I'm so diverse and open minded!" but just that these types of music all appeal to me in different ways and are apart of various obsessions, fetishes, fixations and also were apart of my past discovering and exploring music and people..
Will admit to avoiding certain genres and types of people (crusties...) but the music that can come out of these scenes, or the music that influenced these types of people and occassionally even some of the bands still interests me, I cannot stand crust punks but I absolutely love Amebix, Anti cemix, Skitsystem etc. still.
Buy- unless it was a personal issue. The sound and whether I like it or not is the only thing that matters rather than the politics of someone you are unlikely to meet....
Quote from: Peterson on December 12, 2016, 01:19:49 AM
Bad Brains and Skrewdriver happen to be equally important bands to me.
You too?! Personally, I've always loved bands or artists that have never
apologized for their lyrics or views. HR's anti-gay rhetoric has gotten him some shit, but it's mainly ignored cause he's a rasta. A guy like Ian Mackaye on the other hand has to go on record every chance he gets in order to say hes not a racist homophobe or whatever.
In response to the OP, I don't try to limit myself when deciding to support an artist or not. I've always found it important to separate the sound from the message when necessary.
Another funny aspect of that is that H.R. is generally revered for all that despite being mostly an unstable, homeless, pot-dealing scumbag, while ISD, generally known as a stand-up guy, kind to his friends and family, etc., is maligned because of his political affiliations. So I guess another aspect is that while some might consider being a nationalist, racist, or whatever "being a total dickhead," it's my opinion this is much preferable over pretty low-level street urchin behavior.
In my opinion it doesnt matter if youre homeless, smoke pot and such or if you have family and go to work and have a permanent residence. Asshole is an asshole and you can be total cunthead even if you lead 'socially acceptable' lifestyle or you can be total stand up guy even if you choose to live outside the norms of society. Not that I am not biased in this matter but I try not to be, hehe.
Not going to say anything about h.r or anyone else in specific, mainly because I dont know those people personally. Ive seen some live gig footages and the old gigs of bad brains (I assume you meant h.r of bad brains here) seemed like proper fun.
Anyway, I dont give a shit generally. Ill never meet the guys, I rarely even know what kind of person is behind project x. There are some bands I generally avoid due to their politics not alignin with mine but that is extremely, extremely rare and usually it goes hand on hand with me not enjoying their music that much either. I own material that advocates things that I oppose completely, I own stuff that I agree with. Doesnt matter if I agree or dont agree with content or the persons behind the material, what matters in the end is it good as music or any form of art.
I suppose my criteria for avoiding something would be based on a pretty specific criteria. Are you an egomaniac? Shitty tipper? Kind of a douche? IV drug user? Preachy crust punk? Vapes at shows? Sure I can sort of look past all that. I don't need musicians to match my world view specifically, but much like my friends, I wouldn't tolerate:
Being a total piece of shit
Ripping people off (scene rip off or in real life)
Being a legit racist/Nazi (not "I own a Graveland CD look how edgy I am")
Being a someone who treats women like shit, hits women, mansplains all the live long day etc
HOWEVER I'm not the sort of person to actively screen for this stuff before I buy something, it's more like.... okay remember when that doom band from Belgium found out their lead singer was an active pederast? Like that's a deal breaker I'm not into hearing that. But does the fact that Joe from Goatlord just got arrested for killing his entire family and then himself last year diminish how much I like the band? Not really.... okay so here's an example - obviously the Casualties fucking suck large and always have, but the singer has been widely called out for raping a bunch of women. If I liked the Casualties (which I do not) I would not be on board with that kind of shit even if it's just allegations. Would I buy anything from Blake Judd? Not even if he wasn't a scumbag rip off, but he clearly is....
Quote from: holy ghost on December 13, 2016, 05:41:38 PM
okay remember when that doom band from Belgium found out their lead singer was an active pederast? Like that's a deal breaker I'm not into hearing that.
Decent band but that guy is a massive, MASSIVE penis though. Enough to avoid him on all fronts.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on December 13, 2016, 05:54:01 PM
Quote from: holy ghost on December 13, 2016, 05:41:38 PM
okay remember when that doom band from Belgium found out their lead singer was an active pederast? Like that's a deal breaker I'm not into hearing that.
Decent band but that guy is a massive, MASSIVE penis though. Enough to avoid him on all fronts.
Which band?
Thee Plague of Gentlemen.
I got lots of their CD in stock. I believe label stopped selling the album after shit hit the fan. I felt that whatever the reality of this case or all the people involved may be, if nobody wants to sell it, I may do it. Needless to say, it hasn't sold much since, but it's pretty good album in genre. And whether the stories are totally accurate or not, element that there are some seriously vile characters in band makes it far more interesting group than just bunch of stoners jamming heavy riffs.
This said, it is probably quite obvious that I don't have problems with "dickheads". I don't have slightest problem with bands who have different "opinions" or worldview. It's not that I would not care, but in terms of good records, good albums, and good bands, it's not so much about what exactly are their opinions, but level of passion, fanaticism, vision and commitment. Be it utterly opposite of your personal view, it is certainly possible to capture the spirit & feeling of the work.
I believe this sort of discussions have started to rise more and more last few years, where people have butthurt over their celebrated rockstars saying things they dislike. Be it indie music fans being upset of Morrissey cekebrating Brexit, or metal magazines raving over some former hair-metal celebrity not understanding to appreciate black popularculture music.
I do understand that certain things ruin the feeling of spirit of album or band. Usually not what is being said, but how it is said. When I see lots of apologies and lots of crybabies, it usually makes me much much less interested in what they do. As such attitude probably bleeds into their creations on all levels.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 13, 2016, 07:34:42 PM
And whether the stories are totally accurate or not, element that there are some seriously vile characters in band makes it far more interesting group than just bunch of stoners jamming heavy riffs.
I was sort of surprised by all the criteria certain folks mentioned as far as what constitutes a "total dickhead," I sort of figured certain antisocial behavior and criminal actions sort of went along with the territory of "extreme" music, but I guess it's easy enough to offend Canadians. Just kidding. But really, it's odd to me that some would want to avoid certain political and, ah, "romantic" inclinations among music such as Intolitarian or Snuff, but hey, different strokes for different folks, right?
My only real issue is not wanting to fund someone's drug habit, like Blake Judd or whomever.
I'll readily admit I didn't go and check out that Nothingisttrue guy's material until the stuff about him showed up on the news. Same goes for Goatloard. When the ugly details about the Blood For Blood singer came out, I revisited two of my CDs. Started listening to "Defenders of the Faith" more often when I found out the legal history of Judas Priest's drummer. Been listening to a lot more Swans since the recent controversy.
Before everyone misinterprets what I'm saying to mean that this is some sort of criteria for listening, it's not; it's just that I'm willing to look at their music in a new, not necessarily negative light when these unsavory aspects of their personal lives come out. Am I really that much of a prick for not being surprised that people actually do the things they talk and think about?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 13, 2016, 07:34:42 PM
I do understand that certain things ruin the feeling of spirit of album or band. Usually not what is being said, but how it is said. When I see lots of apologies and lots of crybabies, it usually makes me much much less interested in what they do. As such attitude probably bleeds into their creations on all levels.
Yep, generally anyone who can't make a decent argument about something they supposedly believe in is not likely to be that good at what they do. You can say that about any side of this now long rolled over debate.
I sometimes think it is said a little bit to easily that 'it doesn't matter, so long as it sounds good' but for me it's about getting to the point of listening in the first place most times. If you are in any way un/fortunate enough to have an insight into the people behind the music of course it influences how you come to think about it and whether or not you want to listen to it at all. I don't think it matters whether you're the blinkered liberal upset at some words/imagery or the meat head with no retort to that but to call the person a faggot who doesn't get it - you're still a fucking cliche and I bet your shit album reflects that. So, realistically, why would I want to find out whether it sounds great regardless of what an idiot this person appears to be?
I also don't particularly buy into the idea that music having explicit political/social themes you don't like/care about isn't a totally valid aesthetic reason to reject it...especially if we're talking about something you'd purchase and have in your collections vs occasionally wheel up on youtube. I might be interested in what Scientology has to say from time to time but that doesn't mean I'll fill my shelves with it's literature each time I'm curious...and especially not based on the argument that it is well written?! Same with an awful lot of music that happens to have a 'controversial' outlook different to my own: sounds ok but more often than not has really fucking dull images and lyrics surrounding it so why spend time simply getting bombarded with slogans and images you're bored of seeing? Certainly not for the sake of appearing open minded...
I don't need my artists to be good people by any stretch of the imagination but I do need them to create interesting art.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 13, 2016, 07:34:42 PM
Thee Plague of Gentlemen.
I know the story but I've thought TPOG was from US.
Jesus Meat are some of the most obnoxious people I've ever known (they keep calling me a paedophile on Twitter) but I'm going to be doing a split release with them at some point haha.
I find the thought that I'm listening to music by an awful person (or people) kind of exciting if the music's dark (and good). I don't really have politics so that's a non issue.
What do people (here) say about listening to the music of Charles Manson? He was an all round bad fella (rapist, racist, murder, committer of perjury etc) But maybe his music is more of a novelty, it is hardly otherwise much out of the ordinary.
So yeah if the music is good...
Maybe it sounds as though I don't have any moral compass (or just ramble like a shithead), not so!
The vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill his entire family. He killed a female neighbor, kidnapped her son, took the kid to his house where he killed him then committed suicide. Unfortunately, there was very scant details about the crime.
Choking on chicken bones...
Quote from: theotherjohn on December 13, 2016, 09:44:49 PMthe recent Bizarre Uproar interview
do you have a link to this?
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on December 13, 2016, 09:28:56 PM
The vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill his entire family then get arrested. He killed a female neighbor, kidnapped her son, took the kid to his house where he killed him then committed suicide.
Choking on chicken bones...
My apologies. I deeply apologize for any misconceptions I might have spread about this particular gentleman.
I wouldn't even say it's a matter of being offended (for a Canadian, that's somewhat hard to do despite our liberal nature) but more like "do I want to spend my time and/or money on this individual if I know beforehand they're a total fucking wad?"
Like I'm not going to waste my time on any drama online or in real life and I'll be damned if I get involved with some scumbag musically either. My time is valuable man.....
Quote from: holy ghost on December 13, 2016, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on December 13, 2016, 09:28:56 PM
The vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill his entire family then get arrested. He killed a female neighbor, kidnapped her son, took the kid to his house where he killed him then committed suicide.
Choking on chicken bones...
My apologies. I deeply apologize for any misconceptions I might have spread about this particular gentleman.
I wouldn't even say it's a matter of being offended (for a Canadian, that's somewhat hard to do despite our liberal nature) but more like "do I want to spend my time and/or money on this individual if I know beforehand they're a total fucking wad?"
Like I'm not going to waste my time on any drama online or in real life and I'll be damned if I get involved with some scumbag musically either. My time is valuable man.....
Some serious slander going on here, the vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill anyone....poor Chris getting an awful slatting here. Now Joe on guitar, well that asshat killed a mom and son and then followed the Dodo into extinction.... :)
Aye mate... the singer from Goatlord has never killed anyone.... that you know of!! Who knows what secrets are buried in the spooky Nevada desert?
Quote from: aububs on December 13, 2016, 09:51:15 PM
Quote from: theotherjohn on December 13, 2016, 09:44:49 PMthe recent Bizarre Uproar interview
do you have a link to this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF-OidLP1K0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF-OidLP1K0)
Quote from: locustfurnace on December 13, 2016, 10:47:47 PM
Quote from: holy ghost on December 13, 2016, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on December 13, 2016, 09:28:56 PM
The vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill his entire family then get arrested. He killed a female neighbor, kidnapped her son, took the kid to his house where he killed him then committed suicide.
Choking on chicken bones...
My apologies. I deeply apologize for any misconceptions I might have spread about this particular gentleman.
I wouldn't even say it's a matter of being offended (for a Canadian, that's somewhat hard to do despite our liberal nature) but more like "do I want to spend my time and/or money on this individual if I know beforehand they're a total fucking wad?"
Like I'm not going to waste my time on any drama online or in real life and I'll be damned if I get involved with some scumbag musically either. My time is valuable man.....
Some serious slander going on here, the vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill anyone....poor Chris getting an awful slatting here. Now Joe on guitar, well that asshat killed a mom and son and then followed the Dodo into extinction.... :)
Oh, yeah. Joe with the guitarist. Derp.
http://loudwire.com/goatlord-guitarist-murders-neighbor-her-son-commits-suicide/
I won't give money to labels who rip people off, or have ever been known to rip people off.
I don't care if they are reformed and repented, they fucked up.
You can't tell me that you believe in your work when you don't believe in getting to the post office within a month.
One interesting thing about this so-called "fringe community" is that little talk about the nuanced paramaters of art happens, but much talk about being offended happens. I am unashamedly devout about the art of the thing. Power Electronics / exploration of power dynamics as art. Industrial culture as art. It will be looked at in a similar way as Dadaism when it comes down to it. I don't think it's pseudo-intellectual to do this. I think smart people can be raw too. What often carries over is a sort of half-wit feeling of "show business" in the ability to offend people, and I'm bored by that. I will support what I think is visionary work, no matter how offensive, to my dying day, but I do draw a line with being bored.
I won't lie that I do get disappointed when I think someone has true artistic intent and I find out they are simply nefarious, part of the "scene", desperate for attention, or without any of their own ideas. It still baffles me what inspires certain people to continue, other than some sort of vicarious feeling of being part of some mythical legacy of imaginary cliques.
That said, an image is subjective. People couldn't look at Pee Wee Herman the same when Paul Reubens was caught masturbating in a porn theater. That is a testament to Pee Wee's character. I personally have been able to separate Paul Reubens from Pee Wee Herman, even as a kid. I am not a fan per se, but I haven't lost respect for him. I still don't mind buying records by Gary Glitter, even though he is now in jail for some business he did in Thailand. Dr. Seuss cheated on his wife when she was dying of cancer. Do the kids who read it need a disclaimer? I still think if I had a child, I would let Dr. Seuss into the bookshelf. These are the most obvious comparisons. People who excel in any arena are going to be prone to neurosis/neglect in another arena, that is to be expected.
If someone is a dick to me in person, I won't ever buy their stuff again. I am not too keen on mollycoddling egomaniacs.
The only thing that would stop me to buy something i like is if i was ripped off by the guy. Even then i would probably buy it but not directly for sure.
Also, i cannot connect with left / anarcho lyrics, i find them offensive haha, but not the usual way. Man, most of them are so silly / naive that if i spend just a little time listening to them my intelligence feels offended. I start to feel stupid cause i am listening these stupidities. When i was 15-16, they were OK, cool. Now ? I just can't. So even if their music is good, lyrics destroy it for me.
Quote from: theotherjohn on December 13, 2016, 09:44:49 PM
I've also since noticed that some people/communities online have started blacklisting or shaming associates/friends of "dickheads", due to them supposedly sympathizing with their beliefs by proxy - for example, people in the online animation community getting worked up by Emily Youcis since becoming vocal of white nationalist beliefs (even though her art has always involved taboos and shocking people), or the recent MDE World Peace controversy. What the internet calls cancer seems to have now evolved into internet leprosy, AIDS or Ebola, and anyone by mere association to the "disease" can become infected. You just know this won't end well for ANYONE.
"Call-out" culture, and what straight edgers used to call "positive peer pressure". Very Stalinist/Maoist stuff. No one wants to be left out. An opportunity for cowards and wimps to feel good about themselves and each other by acting tough online and believing they're speaking truth to power or some other bullshit. In other words - bullying.
Quote from: Theodore on December 14, 2016, 12:40:00 AM
Also, i cannot connect with left / anarcho lyrics, i find them offensive haha, but not the usual way. Man, most of them are so silly / naive that if i spend just a little time listening to them my intelligence feels offended. I start to feel stupid cause i am listening these stupidities. When i was 15-16, they were OK, cool. Now ? I just can't. So even if their music is good, lyrics destroy it for me.
I agree. I don't like sanctimonious or proselytizing lyrics. I think it defeats the purpose and is convoluted beyond words. Theater is preferable to soap box histrionics.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on December 13, 2016, 11:52:30 PM
I won't give money to labels who rip people off, or have ever been known to rip people off.
I don't care if they are reformed and repented, they fucked up.
You can't tell me that you believe in your work when you don't believe in getting to the post office within a month.
Reminds me of a recent discussion in Gerogerigegege topic.
Quote from: Theodore on December 14, 2016, 12:40:00 AM
Also, i cannot connect with left / anarcho lyrics, i find them offensive haha, but not the usual way. Man, most of them are so silly / naive that if i spend just a little time listening to them my intelligence feels offended. I start to feel stupid cause i am listening these stupidities.
Unfortunately stupid and naive lyrics is not an exclusive right of anarcho genre. It's all over there swarming like maggots. That's why I like instrumental music more or lyrics sang in completely strange language.
I mostly judge people as being dickheads (or nice people) because I've met them in person, have mutual friends who have experienced trouble with him/her, have witnessed their behaviour live or have been in contact by phone/e-mail/whatever means enough for me to make some sort of opinion. Making judgements only by reading some half-assed interviews, reading lyrics or hearing some statements ripped off from original context is just as silly as judging someone by his fucking haircut.
Basically I am interested in how different political, religious etc. groups and movements manifest their agenda through art (how the things are said is much more interesting than what is being said), so it would be silly just refusing to listen or watch anything that is not my cup of tea. Just out of curiosity and often entertaining myself I'm happy to read Jehovah pamphlets, anarchist cookbooks, listen to Skrewdriver/Chumbawamba/rap/soul/classical all in a row. Would I buy them all... definitely not. I am not trying to be "like-em-all-accept-em-all" type because it would be (considering human nature) impossible, but at least I am curious about different aspects of life and culture. The saddest people are the ones who retreat into their little comfortable bubbles and close the doors and windows to keep everything considered 'strange' outside.
Records flirting with pedophilia and child pornography - no matter what hidden so called 'social commentary' they make (ain't that just a panic excuse when police knock your door?) - is a no-go for me (as being a father of a little girl). I don't buy any of those records - I'd rather put my money somewhere else. I am not getting mental over it or start preaching about it, every grown-up person should use their own heads in thinking what to support and what not. If I really feel like hearing them, I'd rather download/listen them free from the internet so there would be zero £$€ going to artist or label - no regrets. You can call me a pussy or crybaby... a crybaby with money and a freedom to choose on which products to spend it and which products to steal.
Any label or artist publishing controversial material or giving bold statements should at least be prepared that there could be stores which don't take your record for sale, bars which don't give you a chance to play, anonymous hatemail or people who refuse to buy your records for a reason or two. There is no reason to cry over some other crybaby disliking over your aesthetics, that is the price to be paid. Any label/artist can still release whatever they feel like... I mean, we are not living a Nazi Germany, right?
Quote from: cantle on December 12, 2016, 05:13:07 PM
Buy- unless it was a personal issue. The sound and whether I like it or not is the only thing that matters rather than the politics of someone you are unlikely to meet....
with so many variables out of individual control, this advice seems best.
don't forget the reverse, maybe the artist, label guy thinks you are an asshole.
Quote from: Marko-V on December 14, 2016, 02:16:28 PM
Records flirting with pedophilia and child pornography - no matter what hidden so called 'social commentary' they make (ain't that just a panic excuse when police knock your door?) - is a no-go for me (as being a father of a little girl). I don't buy any of those records - I'd rather put my money somewhere else.
I think most of the panic tends to come from parents who misinterpret or worry a lot about what exactly the content might mean when approaching a record that deals with pedophilia, child pornography, and child abuse. I've seen similar comments on other forums, and mostly it seems like the distinction between a piece of art that's dealing with something controversial and unpleasant and an actual piece of illegal material is a hard line for some to draw. A lot of folks don't want something that even discusses those subject in their house, which is fine, but seems like more of a personal moral preference than avoiding undue police attention.
After all, there is a huge difference between a record and an actual piece of child pornography. One has no real legal repercussions, while the latter obviously does. Personally, I doubt strongly that anyone releasing music dealing with pedophilia or child pornography wants any kind of police attention, and logically, they're not just showing off their illegal collections and making some kind of excuse of a "statement" like you're implying.
But, I'll also say that if you think the police should be knocking on someone's door just for the vaguely sinister artwork of a record, the issue is your definition of what constitutes child porn. And you have a rather wide definition of that, which could be potentially tricky. I have tons of books and films explicitly dealing with medical, sexual, and psychological topics which could fall under your definition, if you're actually thinking that any records dealing with these things are just a front for "when the police knock on your door."
It's fine that you want to take the worst possible interpretation of music that discusses this subject matter, but I think those type of intent readings are basically just short of hysterical. I understand that you are a parent, I'm sure that's difficult, but I doubt owning a Brighter Death Now record would get you in any trouble aside from with your own guilty conscience. I know a couple whom are wonderful parents, yet the mom lent me a copy of Lolita once, should those folks have suspicion cast on them?
Quote from: Peterson on December 14, 2016, 05:57:43 PM
Quote from: Marko-V on December 14, 2016, 02:16:28 PM
Records flirting with pedophilia and child pornography - no matter what hidden so called 'social commentary' they make (ain't that just a panic excuse when police knock your door?) - is a no-go for me (as being a father of a little girl). I don't buy any of those records - I'd rather put my money somewhere else.
I think most of the panic tends to come from parents who misinterpret or worry a lot about what exactly the content might mean when approaching a record that deals with pedophilia, child pornography, and child abuse. I've seen similar comments on other forums, and mostly it seems like the distinction between a piece of art that's dealing with something controversial and unpleasant and an actual piece of illegal material is a hard line for some to draw. A lot of folks don't want something that even discusses those subject in their house, which is fine, but seems like more of a personal moral preference than avoiding undue police attention.
After all, there is a huge difference between a record and an actual piece of child pornography. One has no real legal repercussions, while the latter obviously does. Personally, I doubt strongly that anyone releasing music dealing with pedophilia or child pornography wants any kind of police attention, and logically, they're not just showing off their illegal collections and making some kind of excuse of a "statement" like you're implying.
But, I'll also say that if you think the police should be knocking on someone's door just for the vaguely sinister artwork of a record, the issue is your definition of what constitutes child porn. And you have a rather wide definition of that, which could be potentially tricky. I have tons of books and films explicitly dealing with medical, sexual, and psychological topics which could fall under your definition, if you're actually thinking that any records dealing with these things are just a front for "when the police knock on your door."
It's fine that you want to take the worst possible interpretation of music that discusses this subject matter, but I think those type of intent readings are basically just short of hysterical. I understand that you are a parent, I'm sure that's difficult, but I doubt owning a Brighter Death Now record would get you in any trouble aside from with your own guilty conscience. I know a couple whom are wonderful parents, yet the mom lent me a copy of Lolita once, should those folks have suspicion cast on them?
speaking to friends and colleagues over the years, I think it is that parenthood is just a game changer that has little to do with morals but is largely biological.
Quote from: Peterson on December 14, 2016, 05:57:43 PM
Quote from: Marko-V on December 14, 2016, 02:16:28 PM
Records flirting with pedophilia and child pornography - no matter what hidden so called 'social commentary' they make (ain't that just a panic excuse when police knock your door?) - is a no-go for me (as being a father of a little girl). I don't buy any of those records - I'd rather put my money somewhere else.
I think most of the panic tends to come from parents who misinterpret or worry a lot about what exactly the content might mean when approaching a record that deals with pedophilia, child pornography, and child abuse. I've seen similar comments on other forums, and mostly it seems like the distinction between a piece of art that's dealing with something controversial and unpleasant and an actual piece of illegal material is a hard line for some to draw. A lot of folks don't want something that even discusses those subject in their house, which is fine, but seems like more of a personal moral preference than avoiding undue police attention.
After all, there is a huge difference between a record and an actual piece of child pornography. One has no real legal repercussions, while the latter obviously does. Personally, I doubt strongly that anyone releasing music dealing with pedophilia or child pornography wants any kind of police attention, and logically, they're not just showing off their illegal collections and making some kind of excuse of a "statement" like you're implying.
But, I'll also say that if you think the police should be knocking on someone's door just for the vaguely sinister artwork of a record, the issue is your definition of what constitutes child porn. And you have a rather wide definition of that, which could be potentially tricky. I have tons of books and films explicitly dealing with medical, sexual, and psychological topics which could fall under your definition, if you're actually thinking that any records dealing with these things are just a front for "when the police knock on your door."
It's fine that you want to take the worst possible interpretation of music that discusses this subject matter, but I think those type of intent readings are basically just short of hysterical. I understand that you are a parent, I'm sure that's difficult, but I doubt owning a Brighter Death Now record would get you in any trouble aside from with your own guilty conscience. I know a couple whom are wonderful parents, yet the mom lent me a copy of Lolita once, should those folks have suspicion cast on them?
There's a long way from panic to just being quietly opposed and making personal choices. Believe me, if I was jumping on a hysteria train, my postings would be way out different. One negligent side note seemed to lit fire. I never meant to imply that every single article hinting to pedo is automatically kiddy porn, illegal and should be inspected by authorities. It's hard to express myself in broken english but I'll give it a try. I have a gut feeling that many releases dealing with subject matter are poorly executed commentary or, even worse, just lazy uninspired shock tactics without any real idea behind it. Just like making a record cover the easy way and putting on some blood/shit/S&M/holocaust or whatever cliche imaginary without any real thought behind it, only because it has become a sort of genre standard. If I miss some extraordinary musical masterpiece by dismissing it because of subject matter... what the hell - I can live with it.
But like I stated loud and clear before... I repeat it once again: I am not getting mental over it or start preaching about it, every grown-up person should use their own heads in thinking what to support and what not. Everybody draws a line somewhere and that's where I draw it, even in danger of being labeled as 'genre denying hysteric daddy-o' by some people singing the gospel of 'everything goes'.
I think I got what you mean, and to some extent, I definitely agree - I wouldn't purchase anything dealing with that kind of strong subject matter or imagery just because whomever was behind the project felt like that was the best way to shock and piss folks off. Even if they are in some way quite a reprehensible human being, I'd rather have difficult subjects approached from a real-world perspective, whether it's a pro or con judgement on the subject at hand.
There's plenty of hollow and pointless grindcore, harsh noise, and other bullshit out there that seeks only to provoke - I guess you can say that's one more criteria I have for not buying shit! There has to be a goal beyond upsetting folks.
Quote from: Marko-V on December 14, 2016, 02:16:28 PM
Any label or artist publishing controversial material or giving bold statements should at least be prepared that there could be stores which don't take your record for sale, bars which don't give you a chance to play, anonymous hatemail or people who refuse to buy your records for a reason or two. There is no reason to cry over some other crybaby disliking over your aesthetics, that is the price to be paid. Any label/artist can still release whatever they feel like... I mean, we are not living a Nazi Germany, right?
Yes, a label will have to be prepared for that. A store has a right not to sell material they don't want to sell. That said, I dislike censorship almost as much as I dislike proselytizing. Call-to-action lyrics take away from the idea that an artist is simply looking at things from whatever perspective they choose, and asking questions. Art itself should be a "safe space" or a "menstrual shed", as it were, and be looked at in as objective a way as possible. People shouldn't need a "safe space" from art, they should acknowledge that art is that "safe space" for others.
If someone does not look at Marquis de Sade objectively, that is their problem. The role an artist plays and what an artist does in general, should not be a matter of scrutiny. Art needs to be totally free. If someone wants to work out their childhood traumas by portraying themselves or others as a "dickhead", then I would prefer that they do that instead of shooting up a school or raping someone, or what have you.
That a number of these anarcho anti-racist people are getting black metal shows cancelled and such, when they don't have the where-with-all to go after people who are actually persecuting others because of their race, just strikes me as cowardly and misguided. I find it infinitely frustrating that so-called "humanitarians" completely miss the point on matters like these. I don't think I am a "crybaby" because I think these people that are protesting the dorky neofolk crowd etc. are largely morons.
That said, I think Sotos is a great writer (and a very nice guy in person), just by mechanics and application alone, but the idea that raping children is some sort of "will to power" is what basically comes across to me from the few things I have read. And of course, I think it's ridiculous. But I will support his right to write about things. I have never brought this up to him in person (we usually talk about music/argue about formats), but I did read somewhere (before it was taken down), that he writes about these things to quell the urge to commit pedophilia, and I would prefer that he writes about these things instead of doing them. Call me square, but if the guy gets off by watching a film of Jamie Gillis talking a woman into going into an alley and pooping for as little amount of money as possible, that is fine with me. Of course, I think it shouldn't be around for children to read/see. The subconscious works in mysterious ways.
Your paragraph regarding Sotos' work should have been around for a lot of silly arguments that occurred elsewhere, I think. Nailed it. Another angle on that is that so much writing looks at antisocial psychology from outside, and not from within. His work does so from within and with a relevance to his own, real life that DeSade or others like him just didn't have as writers. Honesty is something you are allowed to exhibit, and all the better when you are being honest about something that is not at all nice. I would like to experience more of this from a wider range of authors dealing with more subjects than just Sotos and his specific focus, but until then, it's narrowed to Sotos' treatment of his chosen material. A pen-pal of mine described it as honest writing that comes through his psychological makeup but isn't allowed the process where the brain filters itself; really terrible pun not intended, his writing is more "pure" than, say, when someone else writes about a Gillis video for other reasons.
I think the bad reactions to his work and similar stuff are to be expected, and people like me don't have as much clout in whining about misunderstandings as we generally have the tendency to do, haha.
Quote from: Peterson on December 14, 2016, 11:52:39 PM
Your paragraph regarding Sotos' work should have been around for a lot of silly arguments that occurred elsewhere, I think. Nailed it. Another angle on that is that so much writing looks at antisocial psychology from outside, and not from within. His work does so from within and with a relevance to his own, real life that DeSade or others like him just didn't have as writers. Honesty is something you are allowed to exhibit, and all the better when you are being honest about something that is not at all nice. I would like to experience more of this from a wider range of authors dealing with more subjects than just Sotos and his specific focus, but until then, it's narrowed to Sotos' treatment of his chosen material. A pen-pal of mine described it as honest writing that comes through his psychological makeup but isn't allowed the process where the brain filters itself; really terrible pun not intended, his writing is more "pure" than, say, when someone else writes about a Gillis video for other reasons.
I think the bad reactions to his work and similar stuff are to be expected, and people like me don't have as much clout in whining about misunderstandings as we generally have the tendency to do, haha.
From a psychological perspective, every trait should be examined and scrutinized in as objective a way as possible. That said, the leftist/ activist kind tend to be the type of passive-aggressive personalities that are referred to as "lost children" with regard to growing up in a dysfunctional family; rejecting authority, not taking responsibility, running away, blaming everyone else for their problems, etc. That is sort of mirrored in the type of person who needs to take the place of the father at a young age. Interestingly, a family that is too open is just as dysfunctional as a family that is too closed off and conservative, and results are similar in the sense that children who received "too much attention" are often having the same sort of sexual and communication (knowns VS. unknowns to the subconscious) problems as those who were neglected. In short, I have found that the sadists are cut from the same cloth as the masochists, and all of us sort of fit somewhere in that spectrum, some more than others. With that in mind, I have found it necessary to accept all of it in a more empathetic but detached manner, rather than creating enemies and trying to abolish them without understanding them. And to me it seems that the racists and the anti-racists are fighting each other, when in slightly different circumstances, they would find each other to be remarkably good in bed. That this kind of idealism about race and sex is still happening, among other things, just absolutely baffles me. It's like we are still in the Stone Age.
Quote from: Marko-V on December 14, 2016, 02:16:28 PM
Any label or artist publishing controversial material or giving bold statements should at least be prepared that there could be stores which don't take your record for sale, bars which don't give you a chance to play, anonymous hatemail or people who refuse to buy your records for a reason or two. There is no reason to cry over some other crybaby disliking over your aesthetics, that is the price to be paid. Any label/artist can still release whatever they feel like...
This is true. It doesn't really differ from normal situation. People don't buy all records nor shops take all the stuff nor bars have time for all bands who ask. I doubt this has never been big issue in underground until last couple of years maybe? I mean, whole idea of being somehow
entitled to "play in bar". Black Metal? Noise? Punk? Or that some oneline market
has to accept you in, as everybody else is accepted? I think the material what covers the shadow side of culture, can be in shadow. That's what underground network enables. You start own distribution, label, forum, magazine, shop, venue,... whatever. That is what is done so one can do things according to own vision.
But there are also things what can be observed and commented. For example, people who loudly talk about uninspiring or utterly unacceptable content what goes beyond freedom of speech they advocate, can be utterly groundless. In reality, they
aren't willing to listen, think nor to engage into dialogue. Not with material or the people. It's far more easier to file things under "lazy" or "unacceptable", as it demands nothing but the simplest gut reaction.
As example, still in recent history, Con-Dom gig getting cancelled over mid 80's tape cover with swastika. I mean, of course, you don't have to like it. You can say that I've heard this flanger vocals over noise wall so many times, and it's "getting old". But nevertheless, it's most of all guys acting exactly as pavlov's dogs. It's one of the processes what Con-Dom, as well as many other industrial acts, have hoped to deprogram. To see yet another failed case where once again dogs are barking in the most expected ways, under the very same triggers, it of course may result at least two conclusions.
1) Perhaps deprogramming ain't done very well or fails to show people how this reaction was expected? 2) Or perhaps we accept the pavlov's dog response as legit conclusion just like any other reaction? While actually it should be criticized and sometimes even ridiculed. As it may not be the lazy "outrage" what release is intended to cause.
Just like some guys holocaust erotica may not be entitled to be in mainstream music networks, overtly sensitive poodles may not be entitled to cry about every little thing. Both can be addressed and criticized. Even when it's clear they appear to have no intellectual capacity to handle the situation.
As a side note, finally, after many many years of intending, actually started to read
England's Hidden Reverse book. Revised new edition, I think, has new foreword. It is curious how Keenan goes in length about acceptance of nightside of culture. Also goes in length defending Bennett etc. All these Misunderstood great artists he likes, associates and feels people treat so wrong with foolish accusations. People who just don't understand it. Hmm... isn't this the same guy who.... well, nuf' said! haha!
If there is one thing we probably all can agree on unanimously it's that Keenan is a fucking tool and hypocrite.
most non industrial people I listen to are people I despise or I would shoot in the head.
no name dropping on my side... a good 90%
never had issue in buying records of people who didn't fit my outlook on life.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on December 15, 2016, 03:58:10 AM
not taking responsibility, running away, blaming everyone else for their problems
So easy nowadays, happens everywhere, not just leftist/anarchist types (who seem to become a public enemy/annoyance no.1 in this forum). I see it more as a personal feature even though people prone to same kind of views tend to cluster together. It is tempting to find enemies and reasons for personal troubles everywhere: society, left-wing/right-wing/chicken wing, media, boss, family, muslims/christians etc. etc. etc. The list is endless. The hardest part is looking into mirror or letting it be. Got a little out of topic, sorry 'bout that.
Quote from: Marko-V on December 17, 2016, 09:29:34 AM
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on December 15, 2016, 03:58:10 AM
not taking responsibility, running away, blaming everyone else for their problems
So easy nowadays, happens everywhere, not just leftist/anarchist types (who seem to become a public enemy/annoyance no.1 in this forum). I see it more as a personal feature even though people prone to same kind of views tend to cluster together. It is tempting to find enemies and reasons for personal troubles everywhere: society, left-wing/right-wing/chicken wing, media, boss, family, muslims/christians etc. etc. etc. The list is endless. The hardest part is looking into mirror or letting it be. Got a little out of topic, sorry 'bout that.
I did not intend to condemn leftist/anarchist types any more or less than the people on the other side of the spectrum, or anyone else. The concept in the book "The True Believer" had a good effect on me, for one. Mob rules, Jung hated them too. He thought that people inherently become more savage in groups, and so did the collective psyche.
And two, I was reluctant to go on too much of a tangent, but this is not simply about racism etc. to me. If you have someone, let's say it is a Christian, who hates homosexuals so much that they would wish harm and violence upon them, it is extremely likely that they have strong homosexual impulses that they are ashamed of. I suspect this is the case with matters of racism too.
I guess there are a lot of 'dickheads' in my collection. Unless there are personal issues i don't see the problem. I only try to avoid artist acting like total imbeciles like Komissar Hjuler..
Sometimes it's actually hard to recognize (if you don't know him/her personally) if someone is being a moron or arrogant bastard on purpose as a 'publicity stunt' or keeping a distance between audience and self or for some other reason.
Quote from: impulse manslaughter on December 17, 2016, 05:55:53 PM
imbeciles like Komissar Hjuler..
how is he an imbecile? isn't he a cop or something?
I met him and his wife a few years back, nice people.
true.
Quote from: Theodore on December 14, 2016, 12:40:00 AM
The only thing that would stop me to buy something i like is if i was ripped off by the guy. Even then i would probably buy it but not directly for sure.
Also, i cannot connect with left / anarcho lyrics, i find them offensive haha, but not the usual way. Man, most of them are so silly / naive that if i spend just a little time listening to them my intelligence feels offended. I start to feel stupid cause i am listening these stupidities. When i was 15-16, they were OK, cool. Now ? I just can't. So even if their music is good, lyrics destroy it for me.
anything that is "let's save the world/holy cows" annoys me to my bollocks. even when I agree on the subject (which still happens from time to time).
but I appreciate the output of many of these idealists.
At the end of the day, if the work is good enough to get, then swallow hard and get it. It's hard to imagine that even great 'artists' don't have their faults, and it's hard to be wonderful ALL the time. Many years ago I was (I reckoned) ripped off by a well-known 'big' label in the scene, and I sulked w/ them for many years, not buying any of the releases, etc. Totally futile - I missed a lot of good stuff, and eventually went back w/ my tail between my legs.
Of course, it's easier to be 'principled' when the stuff is borderline.
Just being really fucking stupid will usually do it for me, with exceptions for dumb folks that manage to still be likable.
Edit: Also, being a whiny thin-skinned piss baby that pitches a fit over something like a negative live review (it's noise, or underground metal, how the hell do you expect/feel entitled to have everyone like it?) has definitely soured me on at least one artist.
There's little that does turn me off when I like the music, however, there of course are certain things I hold absolutely no interest in or think are plain wrong, such as the Red and Anarchist Black Metal thing, Christian Black/Death Metal... Depends a bit on genre. I don't mind PE/Noise/Industrial with left wing ideas, I think these genres give more place to various topics.
Aside from that, I expect that there will be freaks, assholes etc in extreme music genres, so I'm not easily put off by such things. I've been ripped off by a label, still buy the records of his band, because I like the over the top extremity of the band, but this stuff has now been released by other labels. Of course I don't feel like dealing directly with him now (not that that's even possible at the moment anyway).
Apparently when talking about dickheads inevitably discussion of political sides will come up? Dickheads exist in all political spectrums (because, y'know, humans...) and discussing about buying or not releases by someone who doesn't share your views could be a whole new thread, and it's an interesting topic, I think. On this matter I can say that I generally avoid supporting records with overly preachy political content (despite liking Crass, for example) but it's more a matter of "case by case" than a rule. But I guess I can say the same for purely dickhead cases, that it's a matter of "case by case". Just to give more examples, if I'm sure the person is (like, if they have stated it clearly in interviews, or if other people have shown proof of it) a rip-off, homophobic, racist, then it's a "no deal". Also, analyzing the artist's output (if it reflects their own opinions) is also an entire different discussion.