old topic.. yet lets give it another run!
I have not been very active in comic "scene" for some time due being too busy. But I recall the growing irritation with "new generation" of self publishers was the change for ultra micro level.
While in past, most of people who draw and published, aimed to create something relatively ambitions. Perhaps reaching 20 pages, 32 pages or even 52 pages zine, sold at equivalent of 1-2 euros. And printing costs were actually exactly same as now. I remember when we got local printer to do us for 0,40 finnish markka per double sided xerox, and it felt so cheap mere price urged us to do zine. Until recent (last summer) paper and print costs increase, I could still do for same price.
Anyways, it was even cheaper, when you knew where exactly to go make it.
And how did this change the comic world? Well, as opposed to what self published comics were in 80's and 90's, in 2000's you saw uprise of micro publications. People didn't bother to make proper magazine or proper comic box. There was increase of some 8 page A6 (postcard size), there was increase of 16/A5 filled with some sketches, but no actual "finished work". Print runs are often designed so it can be sold in annual festival. So it won't be available anywhere, ever. You either meet the guy, or don't. He either has copies in his small merch table, or it's out. And you do wonder whether you'd buy it anyways, since now while manufacturing is pretty much the same, the prices has been multiplied to extremes. I recall discussion of this self publishing veteran, who also teaches comics in school, and some girls who made their "zine". It was one A4 folded twice, making it "8 pages". Sold for 2 euros. He kept saying, in role of teacher as well as customer, that this is way out of line. There simply isn't any justification. Girls keep giggling and saying to this, probably in their eyes, utmost relic of times long gone, that they put effort and it costed a lot to copy these and they don't even have many. Yeah. And I'm sure they sold every copy during the fest.
Reality within noise scene often reminds this situation, and since we aren't just teenage girls, impressed about our skill to pull together couple pages of sketches, I wonder what is the real logic of micro releases. What is the justification of pricing, what is the logic of limiting release what you could easily produce on demand? I don't know is it just me, or has recently the amount of ridiculously small editions increased?
I mean, I get promo mails from bands who tell they want to do release on my label, but before that, they have ltd 10 copies tape being self financed. Ten? You check out the batches of the HNW labels or those tape labels who put out a lot of product, and often you see "this is greatest item ever existed" -enthusiasm and in end of description: limited to 17. ... what?
While the gates are opened, the flood sweeps through the mud and collects various ideas around it. With the attitudes of "we price this not according to what it cost to make, not how long release is, but what we feel it is worth. I think 2 minute lathe cut, 60€ is accurate". Yeah, 60€ if it was made by Yoko Ono, TNB or Whitehouse!
"It's all hand made", "it is special", "I am special", "buy it or don't, it's up to you".
Many discussions come into conclusion of solution being buy it or don't and shut up. If you don't like it, stay away. And to certain point, this is valid. I won't be going to reggae shops, telling how much they suck, and buy their merch just to be miserable. But within the field I operate, it seems like some modern day "everybody is entitled to.." BS, which tries to do the best to suppress criticism, feedback and sharing ideas.
There seems to be trend of offering less and less, for more and more money. Tapes have reached the kind of minimum lengths and minimum substance they can offer. But perhaps the price asked for them, and volume of how many different titles can be put out, has yet to reach it ultimate levels?
Not long ago, I had someone question why in art, the audience would be of any importance. Why would I be concerned does CD sell 50, 200 or 500. I kept saying, that I'm happy with pretty much any amount of units moved, but I believe guy who used to sell for example 500 books, now settling for 50. Or band who used to sell 1000 discs, now doing 50, seems like demand & supply doesn't match. High priced items sold by pre-orders to collectors, while the old audience didn't even know something happened. My argument would be that 500 units it's not really that BIG. It is still pretty small. I can take this kind of critic about being too audience oriented, where one thinks issue from point of view of "consumer", yet that is in form of distributor/publisher. Not in role of "artist".
I'm little critical towards the "bubble", create by focusing on idea based on 20 persons willingness to consume, seemingly endlessly. Then the club has already shrank to so small, what exactly is the point anymore?
So. This hardly makes sense. Just typed load of shit while drinking morning coffee. And I am listening to some ridiculously(?) limited TNB LP with handmade cover and mere tape hiss = silence, cut on transparent LP! Hah, it really hits the spot! I can see logic in this, since such covers could not be made too many. And that release is such a "art statement", it hardly requires treatment of proper album.
But in general, it would be nice to see comments from labels and publishers, who have constantly sold out titles in matter of days or weeks, and still don't aim to increase editions? Or people who treat noise as "artists career" and price accordingly. How does this change from plain "release" into desperation of starving artist pulling triple prices of items change its nature?
What would be the benefits of making 50 instead of 25? Or making 100 instead of 50? Making 100 pressed records instead of exclusive 20 copies lathecut? What would be benefit of keeping CDR and tapes in print. As long as orders roll in, at least once a year? Or adjusting into idea, that when making release, it's not necessarily all paid-by-the-hour labor what you absolutely need to transform in cash funds? Must noise be the "career" one makes? Obviously, I'm not promoting idea that everything must be cheap, but we live in times of maximized profits for minimized efforts, and I doubt that can be good in long run?
There's also the problem of micro-editions encouraging people to release more ... more ... more! If the edition sells out within a week the artist/label obviously starts to to think about the next one. An "album" out every fuckin' forthnight or month! Great! And if the quality of one particular release isn't so amazing... who cares, it's only an edition of 20, right? I think it's safe to assume the release would be different (maybe even better) if 200 copies were pressed and a concious decision was made to support it and stand behind it. If the release sells out within a month, the edition was too small - make it bigger next time. There will always be room for extra-special mini-editions, even expensive ones. But it shouldn't be the standard mode of operation.
Of course, there are people who will question altogether the merit of "quality" in noise but frankly, those people are full of shit.
isnt being a profilic artist or label a big thing in noise? Im not going to make a piechart of how much the output has increased per label/artist but I did check out what people were up to in the olden times. macronympha, acording to discogs put out 10ish things in 95. those old things make up a strong legacy to live up to so I dont think its all the newbs fault.
though I think that because there are so many people into this noisy stuff it has created an inflation, see c-10 that costs 9 dollars/20postage paid.
maybe drifting to offtopic but have I noticed that there are more people who didnt grow up in the underground scene(lol that sounds so elitist) these fuckers are likely more prone to mess with the handshake mentality of things being honest,pricing,quality and everything going like in the times of old.
wheres my pitchfork, lets drive them out of the village.
ill edit in that it might be difficult to analyze this subject without tackling everybody individually. if somebody has decided they only do tiny runs then thats it. richie ramirez` label for example. hes decided thats his thing and theres not much to say after that.
I think there are indeed different reasons why one could do this.
One of them might be merely practical: a friend of mine is active in noisecore (projects VRV and Primordial Sounds) and every time he gets an order he starts burning the CDrs and copying covers and everything. That seems a tiresome way of working to me.
So, then I can imagine it might be easier to burn, copy and assemble a batch in one go. But if you're never certain how many you'll be able to move, it's also not good to have 10 or more CDrs just lying around collecting dust, if you overestimate your release.
Looking at it this way, I can imagine that some people just think: ok, I'll make a batch of them, and when they're gone, I'm done with it.
I myself have been thinking about what might be the best way of doing this, since I'm working on some projects and have no idea how much interest there will be.
Of course, this way of thinking, is only correct for the first couple of releases an artist does, after a while he/she should know how much interest there is in his act.
I think we are talking of two different things here, price and availability.
I'm not worried about elitist limited to 10 editions. Even with bands I like, I don't feel urgent need to own everything. Like the recent XE lathe cut, sold out before I even noticed it was out and available. So what? Plenty of great records are still left unlistened and unobtained. Small edition, small effort releases are easy to ignore. Mediocre release limited to 20 is no problem. Mediocre release pressed 200 or 500 is a problem.
Of pricing, I'd like to see some connection between the producing costs and the price. Not just standard pricing for every cd. Paying 12 euros for a home recorded cd folded in a single A4, no matter how full color the A4 is, seems insane. While paying 15 for something like Hated Perverssions VA is no problem. Again, I think the problems is due only if one is a collector. I have no problem ignoring a record with unreasonable price/effort -rate. Well, not everytime b-grade package is mentioned by the label...
Quote from: Ernpe on December 18, 2010, 04:35:52 PM
Mediocre release limited to 20 is no problem. Mediocre release pressed 200 or 500 is a problem.
Well, I think it's the same thing as when you hang out too much with boring & mediocre people and end up being a boring & mediocre person yourself... Meaningless releases result in more meaninglessness. Obviously this wouldn't be a problem if there was an overabundance of great stuff being released but I'm not so sure that is the case. There's lots of stuff with
potential - but it's not being fully realised. And even more remains on the level of the "fetish" (to use a trendy term, hah!) with no real sonic value.
I'm not a veteran of the noise scene and couldn't care less if things were better or worse "in the good ol' days". I'm just a music-lover who would like to see more truly breathtaking noise being released. And I think the ltd. to 20 way of doing things is really not helping this cause. I'm actually less concerned about the price issue. Most of the stuff is still dirt cheap compared to "real music".
And to stop the generalizations... I was just listening to the Rock'n'Roll Jackie & Pain Jerk cd. This is what I'm talking about! Exceptional noise that is full of personality and charm. Just great fun to listen to. And surprise surpise - it's an edition of 500.
Good Question
Why is the new Xeno Lathe lim. 30?
Why is the Deathkey lim. 25?
why are the grunt tapes so limited? :(
Why are the Grunt LPs so limited?
For myself as answer, since i make the same shit:
I don't think more than 30 people wanna have it, so why should i make more?
Quote from: Goat93 on December 18, 2010, 06:27:44 PM
Good Question
Why is the new Xeno Lathe lim. 30?
Why is the Deathkey lim. 25?
why are the grunt tapes so limited? :(
Why are the Grunt LPs so limited?
For myself as answer, since i make the same shit:
I don't think more than 30 people wanna have it, so why should i make more?
My thoughts as well. I don't want to limit my releases so much, but I have to honestly ask myself, how man people really care?
The only problem with ultra-lim items is publicly announcing them. 20 7"'s should sell just by sending out notices to usual customers, not possibly 1,000's on a forum. And even that's not really a problem.
For some reason, 20 7"'s seems more ridiculous than 20 tapes. I wouldn'tdo something like that for another label as I wouldn't get many copies. I need a cpl personal spares plus a few for friends. If I dont' get that, no point in doing it. Other than that, more power to'em b/c most likely, it isn't something I can't live without & eventually someone will upload it on the internet for free download.
Quote from: Goat93 on December 18, 2010, 06:27:44 PM
Good Question
Why is the Deathkey lim. 25?
The only thing that was limited to 25 was the cover and overall 1 time packaging aesthetic. The music is the exact same as the lp that was 250 copies and will soon be available again on cd format.
Also, mentioning GRUNT limited lp's, Industrial Recollections seems to have already re-released such limited releases as "Terror & Degeneration" as 250(?) unit cd pressing for those who did not experience the release as it was limited to 100 vinyl copies previously, and I believe it may have also been a cdr at some point. I would like to think that as long as masters are still available for the older releases, that some of those will be available again as well.
25x Deathkey 12" is "art object" so to say. If one needs it for music, it is available as part of the double LP as well as upcoming double CD (ready now, announced soon). So it's not like it would hard or expensive to get. Only few people who may want to see additional violence towards semites, heh. Release indeed was more of result of consequences than planned release.
Double CD will be sold at price of single CD, at least at Freak Animal, despite slightly "unusual" packaging / expensive production costs.
I don't really know if there is that many limited Grunt tapes and LP's? Most of those releases dates back years, even decade, when situation wasn't what it is now. There wasn't forums, mailinglists and perhaps not even website. The recent releases, both of the recent albums have been pressed 500-800 copies, so I guess we can't really blame for small availability? Some of the items, like Grunt/Cloama collab CD has been available now for.. 7 years?
My blame on the post, doesn't go to labels, who manage to sell some of their releases eventually. If that's what someone read, perhaps should re-read it.
I think the Limitations results mostly of the Deadstock of Micro Labels or directly Band Labels (As mine is). I have neither Money or Space to keep 500 CD's for 100 Years in stock if i have the feeling the marked is overflood and it is nothing which will sell. And if there are 1.000 Forums, Mailingslists or whatever or 6 Millionen, who looks at this already? I erase most Mailinglists, cause of this. Too much new Stuff, which nobody is interested in it. If some remember little time ago, Membrum Debile Propaganda have had in his Catalogue lots of Ultralimited Stuff for over Years in Program. In my opinion nothing have changed, beside of fast sold out situations with some releases.
I don't want to blame somebody, its just there are so many limited releases out, where it would sell much better and so much unlimited stuff, nobody cares about...
I should underline the fact, that limitation seems to mostly apply on things what you COULD make more.
I mean, if you make 200 vinyl, since you believe that's what you sell, that's the risk you take. If suddenly there are 200 gone, and once a month someone ask for it. Due demand of 12 per year sale, it doesn't necessarily make sense to press 100 or 200 more.
But, most of the ultra limited releases, as mentioned in the opening, are amongst releases that you can and often you will do by yourself, and can duplicate more any time, with little effort.
It can't be justified by "I don't have room". Room for what? Few J-cards, file on computer or little pile of master-papers you xerox and cut? Handful of blank tapes and discs? And can storage 100 tape covers in size of dvd cover. One could run label of 100 releases in stock from tiny cardboard box. This was the good thing in labels such as: Open Wound, Nihilistic Recordings, Come Organization (= live assault archives), Broken Flag, Extreme, Zero Cabal, Con-Dom, Sound of Pig, RRRecords, and so on and on. Where are their modern day equivalents?
I'm thinking White Centipede, who boldly advertised their tapes unlimited. Good sounding chrome tapes, decent J-card covers, decent prices. True Force/Pain Electronics? Has these been doing well? I hope so!
The idea, that release is available, allows one perhaps actually be more than just blind "consumer", and label more than bulk merchant. There are a lot of releases, which you simply don't have time to think do you want them or not. You either buy it within days or hours, or miss it. If you actually want to check of few reviews, little customer feedback,.. it may be too late.
Vinyl and CD, we live on mercy of limited possibilities, which is about making decision and having it right or wrong and just living with it. With CDR, tape, etc. basically only limitation is state of mind.
Eventually, when there is really no demand, it's fine. It very justified to delete item from list, when demand is small and plenty 2nd hand copies circulate. I don't think currently dominating state of mind is about giving releases chance to be more than aimed to be sold out consumer products? And I have a feeling, that it's among some of the reasons why many of releases aren't as good as releases were, what were made to be available for unforeseen future. To be noticed, to be talked about, to be interesting still decades later.
I do accept the fact of art object, which due its nature remains limited. But majority of releases are just music on carrier. Nothing else.
I do acknowledge for example Waterpower's view, questions how many people actually care? In deed. The thing is, that for many small labels, it would be possible to FIND OUT. Unless decision of being tiny, unwanted and ignored is default. It's hard to give support to labels as distributor, when nothing is available. Or there is no possibility to re-stock when needed.
With my recent tapes, I suspected that 100 is perfectly enough. Probably even stays in stock for next year. Happens to be, that they did sell more. And I did duplicate more. How much more is needed, will remain to be seen. I could have made 50 and charged 10/each. I could have called it quits when 100 is gone. But chose otherwise, since I felt these releases may deserve more than be forgotten when next batch arrives. Moderately priced, available as long as it seems reasonable to keep them available.
I won't be telling how to run labels, but I will tell, there are options. And some options may be good. Fact that your release never became rare or expensive, may be good. I really really hope, that someone launches proper industrial-noise (tape-) label, which will match the standards set long ago. Proper tape albums, proper availability, aimed for landmark, rather than quick masturbation.
talking specifically about small labels/project that release small amount of copies because of there's small demand: is a good option release something and not announce "this is only limited to 20". Something i did in the past was release a small amount of copies for a couple of releases (25-30) and see what happens, if you see you are running out of stock and actually people are asking for the item, make some more (of course I'm talking about cd-r and tapes, for cd's there's no option, you must make a lot), and just stop making copies when you stop seeing demand
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 18, 2010, 09:57:59 PMWith CDR, tape, etc. basically only limitation is state of mind.
The limited edition cdr is something I'll never understand.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on December 18, 2010, 11:30:08 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 18, 2010, 09:57:59 PMWith CDR, tape, etc. basically only limitation is state of mind.
The limited edition cdr is something I'll never understand.
Yes, such info like how many copies are available isn't necessary and everybody can ignore it. This is only stupid, one of the market tricks which was adopted in underground scene many years ago. What is problem? This is such problem as still the stupid shock images from covers of industrial-noise records, still the same sounds used from synths, multi-effects and so on... There aren't more seriously problems in music to discuss?
Quote from: niko penttinen on December 18, 2010, 03:28:26 PM
isnt being a profilic artist or label a big thing in noise? Im not going to make a piechart of how much the output has increased per label/artist but I did check out what people were up to in the olden times. macronympha, acording to discogs put out 10ish things in 95. those old things make up a strong legacy to live up to so I dont think its all the newbs fault.
oho, I was cleaning at the same time and forgot to write more. if ^that is true well how does a band become profilic? take up every offer and or aproach everyother shoeboxlabel. Im sure there are plenty of people who want to be a part of the game(this being the label) and since limited item is so identified with noise why not do those. and quickly this starts to feed it self.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on December 19, 2010, 12:28:26 AMWhat is problem? This is such problem as still the stupid shock images from covers of industrial-noise records, still the same sounds used from synths, multi-effects and so on... There aren't more seriously problems in music to discuss?
I think problem was explained, wasn't it?
I don't know is it serious problem or not, since all the problems of noise scene disappears when you stop following it? Problems of noise scene hardly haunt the daily life of person.
All these issues are among details open for criticism. All the details together contribute what becomes a noise. And if noise is all about sale gimmicks, all about sounds as excuse of packaging, all about creation to be part of small circle, all about stolen ideas and scene adjustments, eventually you start to wonder if this approach should be criticized, and return should be made to very basic values? One could criticize the worship of old relics, who now fart out sub-par releases. Labels that rip you off. Labels that cheat you by selling you things based on false advertising. Bands and artists who operate without passion and love to the noise. None of these really problems of "real life", so to say, but nuisance within noise, if you ask me.
I someone thinks, he likes european p.e. He'd have whole history of genre, available as regular tapes, that were dubbed by various labels. Releases from 300 to more by all the key bands. Old stuff may be sold out, but still available pretty easily.
Now, If someone thinks, I should check out USA p.e. of modern times, since its been such a matter of discussion.. Vomit Arsonist CD was decent. So how was the other recent stuff? Well, who knows since it was ltd 25 each. American Boots.. 50 copies? I probably sold 30% of pressing from my distro. Where to get it now? Nowhere. Where to get live tape? I guess nowhere. FFH, probably remaining intentionally obscure. Tapes limited from 36 to 50 to 88. One actually 200. And the 7". Prurient collab was great, yet only 36 special editions exists. Luckily I do have it, but every time someone mentions FFH, I say this is the one to get, but I know it's like elitist middle finger of "haha, I have it, you don't.. and won't!". Climax Denial.. most of back catalogue ltd 50. And latest CD is available, but unfortunately as wholeness, not as good as tapes, I think? Sharpwaist, pretty much every release is 50-60 copies? Maybe Nil By Mouth did bigger run? And in deed, it was a good tape I'd recommend to those who want to check "new US pe"! Disgust, the band I see is being worshipped by some people as great new force bending the line between pe &.. ehm.. "grind"? Perhaps close to old Bloodyminded? I don't know. Ltd 65 copies of tape was sold out before I noticed it. Nyodene D did pretty nice tape on Obscurex. Available and easy to get. Meanwhile there was 45 copies tape sold out, and new c-60 that came out is 25 copies. Hmm 25? Well, seems like CDR version also on its way. Yellow Tears, after great LP's, seems like releases got gradually smaller. And 12" that came after LP was such an amazing release, one wonders how come follows with 5-10 times smaller releases one probably can't find out or buy? Shallow Waters tape probably not too well available, but Hospital saved situation with LP release. RRRecords saved Halflings and Cathode Terror Secretion from this by doing LP's of them. I could go on as long until my coffee is finished, heh, but I guess someone could see a point? There doesn't seem to be much reason to limit most of the tapes or cdr mentioned above. But as result they are, unless someone is willing to join the mp3 revolution (not me), you simply slept over the wave of american PE, because you wasn't close friend or the most avid follower of all the myspace sites or forum classifieds.
Did you (or me) miss something vital? I guess that is up to debate. But as many of these have been hailed as masters of contemporary PE, one wonders should it be heard more than 30 friends and 15 random guys?
I'm not too familiar with the noise scene alltogether, but I think it might be possible that certain people just don't ask questions about it anymore. They just see: ok, this is the way it's done, it's normal to make limited releases, so there we go.
That, as well as the fact, that there are a lot of bands, so it's difficult to know about your own material how many people will be interested, might make for another reason for limited items. But as said, that should only count for the first couple of releases.
For a part, it might also be laizyness, people don't want to keep copying the same release for years. And if you say your items are very limited, you know they'll be sold very soon, since, as Mikko said, people will be like: I've got to buy it now or miss it. Have done that myself a couple of times, but only for releases of which I was very sure that I'd like them. Otherwise, too bad, I'll miss them. There's too much good stuff to just buy anything because it's limited.
Since I'll be doing some releases myself sooner or later and have no idea how the interest will be, it appeared to me that the best way would be to release batches. First batch of maybe 25, then see how fast they're gone and if there still is need to make another batch. That way your release stays available without having to make one copy at a time or have lots of copies still collecting dust.
On the other hand, one thing I also was amazed about: I just got the Bereft album (Your Messiah Will Fail), good stuff, but it's limited to 250 and CDr, which had me wondering: is 250 too few to let it press on CD? No idea really what the least amount is you can order with real pressed CDs.
Finally, on a side note, I had a thought about the value for money thing: it seems to be a 'problem' in Black/Death Metal as well. In my opinion a real album should last at least a half hour (I would never call anything I record an album, when it's got less than half an hour of material). But lately: Prosanctus Inferi album - 26min, Nocturnal Blood album - 25min, Black Witchery album - 22min. Why? Just write a couple more songs. Nevertheless, I bought the PI album, because it's great and will be the NB as well, since I'm confident it's better than most of the shit released. But both the NB and BW album have about 8 tracks. And I've got the impression that nowadays it's nearly not-done to have 10 tracks or more on an album (well, the PS has 13). So, then I think: it shouldn't be about the number of tracks on your album, but about the length of the album. I mean, what's next noisecore bands releasing albums with only 10 tracks or less?!
Anyway, just to say, this seems to be more of a general problem.
Quote from: heretogo on December 18, 2010, 06:13:48 PM
Quote from: Ernpe on December 18, 2010, 04:35:52 PM
Mediocre release limited to 20 is no problem. Mediocre release pressed 200 or 500 is a problem.
Well, I think it's the same thing as when you hang out too much with boring & mediocre people and end up being a boring & mediocre person yourself... Meaningless releases result in more meaninglessness.
This was my point. Mediocre release ltd. to 20 will disappear. Perhaps it'll be mentioned on Discogs but nothing more.
QuoteThis was the good thing in labels such as: Open Wound, Nihilistic Recordings, Come Organization (= live assault archives), Broken Flag, Extreme, Zero Cabal, Con-Dom, Sound of Pig, RRRecords, and so on and on. Where are their modern day equivalents?
I think Industrial Heritage (Trev Ward/Grey Wolves 'new' label) is a good example (http://stab.webeden.co.uk/ (http://stab.webeden.co.uk/)). He has a lot of the Old Wound stuff available on CDr, not limited or whatever.
yes, but he's from the old school. With modern equivalent, I meant some new guys who approach the industrial noise from that perspective and do it for contemporary releases.
Statutory Tape. Not only it is a great name for label, but under this (sub)label has been kept available Best of G.R.O.S.S., early days K2 box, Merzbow pornoise box, Journey into pain box, Rising From The Red Sand box, etc... Material what otherwise may have disappeared into 80's/90's tape scene void. Perhaps there would be need for another archive label, who simply steals the best limited tapes of other labels and keeps them available as regular archive versions?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 19, 2010, 01:22:52 PM
yes, but he's from the old school. With modern equivalent, I meant some new guys who approach the industrial noise from that perspective and do it for contemporary releases.
Statutory Tape. Not only it is a great name for label, but under this (sub)label has been kept available Best of G.R.O.S.S., early days K2 box, Merzbow pornoise box, Journey into pain box, Rising From The Red Sand box, etc... Material what otherwise may have disappeared into 80's/90's tape scene void. Perhaps there would be need for another archive label, who simply steals the best limited tapes of other labels and keeps them available as regular archive versions?
It is just hard to get all the Limited new releases, so it would be great if someone bring out the old ones again :)
I think the limitation should be an argument to buy it. And an Issue to feel better since when its sold out, its not useless, equal if its 25 or 250.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 19, 2010, 10:37:16 AM
I think problem was explained, wasn't it? I don't know is it serious problem or not, since all the problems of noise scene disappears when you stop following it? Problems of noise scene hardly haunt the daily life of person.
I see your point of view. But this agitation doesn't lead to aim. There are artists-labels-receivers, secret formula which accepts, wants and demands this ultra limited records. Is it stupid? Bad? Not fair? I don't see anything bad in this snob practises, feeling very special, want to be very special. If people want to be such like this why turn them down it? Music/art will not suffer because of this situation.
Going back to the original topic, I think limited releases are perfectly logical. We are creating niche market material for a niche market audience. There is usually not enough demand to warrant pressing a few hundred tapes, CDs, LPs, etc. I know too many people who pressed a few hundred or a thousand CDs or LPs and are now sitting on boxes of them that they can't sell. Unless you're someone who is a big name in the noise scene, it is completely unrealistic to assume you can routinely sell hundreds of units doing this kind of thing.
If you're touring and have a few releases which are limited to 20 or 30 copies, they will usually sell, because those interested in purchasing said release don't know when they're going to see it for sale again. You can also use limited releases as a sort of "test". Put your material out there, see if you can sell it, and use this as a basis for the quantities of future releases. If certain releases sell out or generate a lot of good reviews, re-press them. I'm not trying to sound like some business minded capitalist here... I'm far from it. However, in my mind, it just isn't worth releasing your material if there is no demand, it will not sell, and you'd be wasting your time and effort. This is why limited releases make sense. If you can't move your release, at least you pressed less than 50 copies.
I don't agree with overcharging for hyper limited releases of dubious quality. I also don't agree with putting out records just for the sake of it.
I've been using the concept of "limited edition" for a while but I am getting less and less keen on it lately,
from my own experience I believe it is ok to make a limited first pressing of something if you're not sure on how the acceptance is going to be but then why retiring records that you are happy with and have good feedback when you're running a label to make stuff available for enthusiasts of the genre?
I've made some pressings myself of 100 copies that have gone quite fast (e.g. Vrilnoise & Fear Konstruktor, Vomir / Mixturizer, Dead Body Collection / Vomir, Werewolf Jerusalem & Wasp Honeymoon, Vidine Ramybe) and still are demanded so I feel I must make more copies of them not for the sake of the label but for enthusiats and artists' themselves.
I think it is pissing off for an artist to put effort on recording something that's really good and then getting only 50 listeners to it.
I think there are labels/individuals who make limited stuff just to represent and building quick an enviable catalog, but what's the point of this when these labels have an endless sold out listing and only 2 or 3 available releases?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 19, 2010, 10:37:16 AMSharpwaist, pretty much every release is 50-60 copies? Maybe Nil By Mouth did bigger run?
Well I think yes, I print 100 copies and I have 3 copies left. My 'limited edition' policy depends on demand, in fact the Tied To An Abuse compilation is a limited edition of 300 copies due for the presence of big names.
@Ashmonger
In Black Metal it is not really Uncommon that a CD/LP is under 30minutes.
There were also some Statements of this as "Underground" from Gorgoroth or some others back ago.
To me, something like BW new album, in 22 minutes, was already half too much.
But I think length itself is not a problem. One could say that in fact many releases are also too long. LP = 40 minutes, just seem to be perfect. I have always tried to find out, was this conscious length decided by study of human brain & ear functions? Since we know, original CD length was conscious decision. They thought to do 60 minutes, but ended up in 74 due length of certain symphony.
I wonder did they plan 11" LP or 13" LP, did they try other rotation speeds. Of course 4 rotation speeds existed. But I guess 12" with 16rpm wasn't good enough sound?
Well... damn derailing here..
I think the problem of short release in noise is that often it seems more of consumerism at best. And same problem what affects noise 7"s affects this. One may get short "best" cut from some piece, lacking the sense of beginning or end. Merely random fragment of something. To me, it often looked as if it would be predominantly due easiness of dubbing, cheapens of blank material and easiness of finding 2x5min as opposed to 2x20min for example.
One can ask is this problem if band, label and customer are happy? Of course not. But are they? Who knows. At least I know these tend to be matter of debate all the time, when someone feels cheated by 10$ 10min piece of crap and band hardly list them among the peaks in their discography? In theory excellent format, but perhaps ruined due possibilities to be ruined.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 21, 2010, 09:27:08 AM
when someone feels cheated by 10$ 10min piece of crap and band hardly list them among the peaks in their discography? In theory excellent format, but perhaps ruined due possibilities to be ruined.
Mikko, why cheated? Mind you, customer (especially in industrial music circle) is aware what he buys. Usually labels inform about length of cassettes. Once I bought this release: http://www.discogs.com/Various-The-Artificial-Nerve/release/2548797 for over 100 EU. I didn't feel that I was cheated.
Quote from: Goat93 on December 20, 2010, 10:00:52 PM
@Ashmonger
In Black Metal it is not really Uncommon that a CD/LP is under 30minutes.
There were also some Statements of this as "Underground" from Gorgoroth or some others back ago.
Yes, indeed, Pentagram is also 29 minutes and that's a great album. In general, I'm not too bothered about it, but for me personally I'd feel uncomfortable releasing anything under half an hour and calling it an album.
On the other hand: about a half hour of great stuff is always better than an hour of shit.
Or the other extreme: the American Black Metal band Nightbringer released their first album in an LP box (5 sided). Takes altogether more than 90 minutes and it's too much. It can't keep my attention. When I listen to the LPs separately it's damn fine stuff, but more than 90mins is just too much.
Often short releases might indeed be consumerism, since that way one can release more albums. But apart from that, I also often think it's the case of having recorded something that might not really fit in with the rest of an artists stuff or deals with a particular issue, a concept release so to say. Some concepts seem perfectly fine to deal with in two or three tracks, so then it seems logical to release it as an ep or something.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on December 18, 2010, 11:30:08 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 18, 2010, 09:57:59 PMWith CDR, tape, etc. basically only limitation is state of mind.
The limited edition cdr is something I'll never understand.
Theorically speaking, you're right
But that would imply only making 'standard' releases, i mean standard CDr's/tapes on standard cases with standard covers (like WCN, which was mentioned before: black tapes on black cases with b/w covers)
Which ISN'T a bad thing at all (don't get me wrong)
But what when you do different package for every release? (like i did, for example)
Maybe it simply was a bad idea..
I'm just saying because i agree 'against' the ultra limited issue and would like to have some past releases always available (also because a lot of effort was put on them and would like them to have bigger diffusion), but yeah, i can't have a constant stockage of white standard or transparent slim DVD cases, black or white glossy CDr's, for example (that's because every release was thought as a complete 'design' thing, package, cover, disc and obviously the noise inside it), not to say it would be difficult to print quality digital color covers on demand (i mean, i'm not big label and don't have a top notch quality digital printer at home)
I'm not arguing, just wondering
When I read this title, I thought of a zine that is 2x(11x17)+3"CD limited to 12 copies for $12ppd. I'm not knocking this person/artist, but the idea of this completely baffles me. The things that come to mind are: 1) why not save up material and do a single issue that is 20 pages? 2) Why not give away something like this for free? (thinking of Mosh of Ass free zine of similar length and layout, given out with orders and sent to distributors to give out for free with their orders). Why would anyone pay for 2x(11x17)? Mask it as charity in your own mind and justify it that way?
If the demand isn't plentiful enough to get rid of such an edition, maybe that is telling you something. Content is questionable? Price is exorbitant? Quantity of content makes it odd/seem questionable?
The situation is very interesting to me, and as I said, baffles me. It's more intriguing and interesting to me than the zine itself ever could be.
What I liked about some labels, was existence of "collector edition" or should it be "art edition", but also existence of regular.
In some cases, like G.R.O.S.S., you could hurry up to be among 50 first to grab metal edition tape. Or settle with chrome.
I see surprisingly many tapes appearing now, where it really not that special. I mean, two 1" buttons and sticker? Ziplock plastic bag with color print?
Everything is limited to certain extent and I have no objections for that. I was rather wishing the discussion what would discuss the logic. The purpose of existence of certain products and lack of other option. What used to be pretty much standard (list given earlier). And what nowadays is pretty much non-existent. As if the motivations to "run label" would have changed drastically.
The logic was stated earlier: demand. Most of the "micro editions" are done by folks who know they'll never move more than 20. Even with 20 they probably give half away within their incestuous social circle. That's not meant in any offensive way, it's just reality.
All small music scenes have always had a "collector culture". I'm sure some of those putting out super limited releases are looking get a piece of that market and use the "limited" factor as a marketing ploy to ensure a quick sale. Collecting is a disease.
I'll add another edge of my mind to this discussion that has come up when planning a couple future releases:
With the money that I've generated for releases, do I A) make a smaller quantity with awesome packaging, or B) make a larger quantity with more standard packaging?
In my mind, I would rather own something with better packaging over something standard, therefore, I go with what I prefer as a consumer.
Though, in regards to WATERPOWER, I do hope to start doing larger, less limited releases with what Mikko mentioned a couple posts above, "art" or "collector" editions. I love that idea. When it's done correctly, it can be beautiful. I'm specifically thinking of that Rapoon boxset that came out a few years ago that was just filled with beautiful artwork and whatnot. Love it, and looking forward to topping it.
Quote from: WATERPOWER on December 28, 2010, 02:25:23 AMWith the money that I've generated for releases, do I A) make a smaller quantity with awesome packaging, or B) make a larger quantity with more standard packaging?
My question to this is: is there really a difference between $100 investment and $300? In the grand scheme of things in life, is $200
really going to change the direction of how you see a release being realized? Add this to the odd things I find in noise today. Folks acting like their label, or project, is such a huge financial burden, and when you see the releases, you can safely estimate they're sinking less than $100 into each one (far less in many instances). In those cases, I also can't help but wonder, "if that is all they're worth in terms of investment, which isn't a perspective I necessarily feel comfortable taking, then why are you messing with it at all?"
I don't throw money around in my life. I'm frugal. I value the dollar. I understand the value of the dollar. Nevertheless, when it comes to something like a label or a project, money falls on the underside of priorities. As a consumer, I approach things much differently, but as a once-label, I consider a few hundred dollars to be trivial. Then again, I never viewed my label as secondary income or a way to put food on the table.
Quote
Disgust, the band I see is being worshipped by some people as great new force bending the line between pe &.. ehm.. "grind"? Perhaps close to old Bloodyminded? I don't know. Ltd 65 copies of tape was sold out before I noticed it.
Influenced by grind is a bit too much of a stretch. Those guys (Koufar, Winters In Osaka, Deterge) from Disgust are huge fans of grind / powerviolence, but it's not like Disgust is "cybergrind" or anything less than serious... maybe the occasional powerviolence cover (done as PE, which isn't a stretch considering legacy of Bastard Noise) or splits with acts like Joshua Norton Cabal (side project of Endless Blockade). When you consider the release on Danvers State ("Where Angels...") is their first full-length, it's not outlandish to assume that people will be less inclined to take the chance on a release. It's also being looked at for reissue (I can also burn you a copy of this disc if you haven't heard it, Mikko).
Quote
Nyodene D did pretty nice tape on Obscurex. Available and easy to get. Meanwhile there was 45 copies tape sold out, and new c-60 that came out is 25 copies. Hmm 25? Well, seems like CDR version also on its way.
Thanks for the compliment, that means a lot. The 45 copy tape was my debut full-length on anything other than a netlabel (my own, but still not really a good measure of attention payed to it) and came out before the obscurex one. I did two tapes (one was a split) between these two in editions of 100, which seems to be a good round number for a young, fairly obscure artist doing a release. Regarding my recent c-60, I am thanking my lucky stars it was limited to 25. Label completely botched it (packaging, dubbing, quality, etc), and I want it stricken from memory. The reissue on live bait is limited to 100 (as a CDr, yes it's weird to limit, but i'm sure a repress would not be out of the question eventually, or I'll burn up a copy for anyone if it's really that in demand). My next few releases will likely be in a big enough edition where people who want them should be able to get them. Slated are pro CDs on Assembly of Hatred (300) and Black Plague (probably at least 500) and a tape on Nil By Mouth. Given the recent experience I had with a more "shoebox" (?) label, I will likely not work with labels of that caliber/ethic any more. I would aslo like to do editions of around 100, which is not unreasonable because I feel I can simply sell more tapes than that. Would i do an edition of 1000 though? Likely not, because I'd be worried that the label would not be able to recoup enough and I'd be taking food out of a family's mouth or something.
My friend used to do edition of 1000 CD for stuff that, while excellent material, you have to wonder if it will sell. Sure, he'll likely break even after the first 150 (all that matters if you ask me), but the remaining 850? Those are gravy. However, as anyone eating leftovers knows, you get sick of seeing them in the icebox eventually. Consider in our scene that there's AT MOST maybe 3000? 4000? Then consider that people into industrial / pe probably makes up only 1/3 to 1/2 of that. By then, it means that a huge edition of something (1000) means that 50% to 60% approx of the scene would have that record if it sold out.
With the DVD we are doing (the City / Ruins documentary), we are doing an initial run of 500 now in DVD case because we found a good deal on pressing. We are nearly at the goal required to press, so it means that we will be able to sell at a very reasonable price for a feature-length documentary. However, if 500 people own the film, like it's been mentioned, you have to consider how many can be repressed before oversaturating the market for any release.
I think simply, there are many excellent tape labels (Phage, NBM, Danvers State, Destructive Industries, Obscurex) who do runs of 50 - 150 and are open to repressing things. It's not that they're trying to do fetish items or start a collector's market (which people accuse Hospital and other labels of), but that they're just guys running a label as a hobby and trying to make sure their supply is realistic in terms of demand.
A final note, consider that a Grunt release today in an edition of 100 would be relatively more limited than myself doing an edition of 100, but less limited than, say, a Whitehouse or Prurient in edition of 100
Quote from: SKY BURIAL on December 28, 2010, 01:49:30 AM
The logic was stated earlier: demand. Most of the "micro editions" are done by folks who know they'll never move more than 20. Even with 20 they probably give half away within their incestuous social circle. That's not meant in any offensive way, it's just reality.
Yeah, but logic is simply shattered when just about all of these releases are sold out in blink of an eye. This was, and is the argument. If there is a limited edition, what goes perfectly hand in hand with audience, of course it's well done. Most of the cases, it is irrelevant, since label or band who does such things, are irrelevant in first place. But, again, I should remind there was given examples when it does matter. At least from my perspective.
Quote from: SKY BURIAL on December 28, 2010, 01:49:30 AM
All small music scenes have always had a "collector culture". I'm sure some of those putting out super limited releases are looking get a piece of that market and use the "limited" factor as a marketing ploy to ensure a quick sale. Collecting is a disease.
This is probably more accurate, but then we get into question, do you need marketing ploy to ensure sales of 20? Or... 6? If you have for example HNW CDR set ltd 6 copies, do you need to post it all over internet, if you already know about 10 times more people who you could mail direct, who are the ones who buy it.
As said by Sky Burial, Collecting is a disease. I wouldn't necessarily go that far, yet I know what it mean. But what this disease results has shows in many genres it's reality. One could ask, how long we've been in situation when "noise isn't enough"? In metal, the marketing ploys have been for long focusing on 1) limited edition 2) collectible "special edition", meaning most of all highly superficial added nonsense 3) controversy. If band releases LP, which is amazing, but none of this, it might be utterly ignored. Band who was never that special, who possess these 3 qualities, tops it anytime.
Of course, this is just the music business as usual. But question remains, when noise isn't enough? When you find out about release, and you can say to friend "get this soon, it'll be gone". When you get a release, you can say I almost pissed my pants when I saw the collector edition of C93 box set!! It's MANDATORY. But what about the sound? The noise? The "release" stripped down from music business characteristics? Did you listen to it? So well, you can actually say to someone how was it. Should he give it a change? Why this, instead of 30 other items what he has to decide this week or forget about?
Demand, is not something you can measure by seeing what happens when release is NOT available. It is something what you can measure when it IS available. With discussions of various label bosses, many say that after edition sold out, they didn't get any inquiries about it. Of course not. It gets more and more rare, that someone actually approaches label or band to ask what they have, since everybody's aim is to sell out and have nothing. As soon as possible. This is the modern method of any business. Everybody claims the warehouse full of stuff is bad for business. And then you ask, so is your band your business? Is all you value current market tactics?
I know, that most of people of my generation, probably started the label from doing summer jobs and other things to finance releases. There was like one place to dub tapes, no places within country to press vinyl. You'd cycle to bank to wire money to other side of europe and hope the one and only master tape you sent, comes out as good vinyl. Or the tape, you'd come from school and spend rest of the day doing nothing but dubbing. And any order or trade you may got, was treated as pretty special. You browsed catalogue that came out last year, and you could send order, since whole catalogue was available on demand (RRR, Grey Wolves, Nihilistic,..). And you got some great value for your money when a 5$ tape came for constant rotation.
I know THIS is the nostalgia, where is no return and wouldn't even want the negative hassle, yet it showed to me the time when people did care in different ways. I guess it would instantly bleed to other already existing topics as "noise albums", "is noise meant for listening", and so on. But to me, when surrounded by people with strategies, ploys, marketing tactics, sales speeches,.... and limited to XX, often question raises isn't noise enough? And why is so? Why for label it would be good to focus all energy on volume of releases directed to tiniest possible audience and multiply it to maximum. Instead of focus some energy to make it slightly wider? I know answer probably is that "I don't give a fuck", "I don't care". But still, the decisions are made, and what people seem to care, seem to be pretty strange ideals.
I'm all for ART editions. I have no interest for consumer bling bling editions. I rather focus on the approach where noise matters, and with good art edition, it compliments rather than taints.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 28, 2010, 10:07:03 AMThis is the modern method of any business. Everybody claims the warehouse full of stuff is bad for business. And then you ask, so is your band your business? Is all you value current market tactics?
I know, that most of people of my generation, probably started the label from doing summer jobs and other things to finance releases. There was like one place to dub tapes, no places within country to press vinyl. You'd cycle to bank to wire money to other side of europe and hope the one and only master tape you sent, comes out as good vinyl. Or the tape, you'd come from school and spend rest of the day doing nothing but dubbing. And any order or trade you may got, was treated as pretty special. You browsed catalogue that came out last year, and you could send order, since whole catalogue was available on demand (RRR, Grey Wolves, Nihilistic,..). And you got some great value for your money when a 5$ tape came for constant rotation.
I have the same feelings, although didn't personally experience the old days
Anyway i can definitely see the difference, guess a release was treated as something very special, a milestone in a band/project story, while nowadays it is just something that 'happens', passes and rest in the past as faint memory, while brand new latest releases are already coming out every month
And i can clearly see how this influences the effort put into every release, also in promoting them
Maybe demand is very low, but i don't see much 'marketing' effort in most cases, because it's sold before you even need to do some 'marketing' (i mean it in the most basic form, sending promos, contacting resellers, distros and the likes)
I'm not talking of huge numbers, i guess 100 pieces would be already enough to need bigger efforts in most cases
(I'm coming from the HNW scene, where 30 copies may already be seen as a fairly big number)
Releases as fast food, you buy, you consume, and you go on with the latest ones
(And if something you released wasn't good enough, no problem, nobody will really remember that, although the same probably occurs when you release pure gold)
I have also the feeling that you, as a (little) label, would have some 'problems' trying to actually change that, because the only way to get highest quality content from artists may be to promise it's gonna be on beautiful unique editions, otherwise it's gonna be just one of the tens other average releases by that project
(Intentionally exaggerating it here, but i think reality isn't that far away)
Anyway... this is another (less dramatic) way i was trying to look at it: instead of having 1 release on 100 copies, you have, say, 3 releases on 33 copies each, that means the same quantity and potentially the same diffusion..
I think, there is another Point in it. Its somekind of this Collection Attitude and den Mp3 Issue together. There are no more closed "Scenes", 15 Years back there were closed "Scenes", the People listen mostly to one Music, if Noise, Metal, Punk or whatever. Nowadays the People listen to ALL Music at the same time. And i wonder since Years, where they got the Time for listening to all the Music with little concentration. Not just as Background Music. The Limitation of Releases springs to that Point in some Ways. First you got mentioned, the release is so Special and Limited it is worth to own but not to hear it. Its enought to have it. That Point is for example very clear for example at the Xeno/Goatmoon Split 7" which sold out totaly fast and only a few like it. You can found it in much Trade/Sale Lists now. (The Release came just in my mind, its no offense about it, since i like the xeno side a lot). In the Metal Section it is normal to buy limited Releases and put them aside, without listening to this special format. Downloading or buying Tape/CD/LP and play only CD is normal here. A lim. 13 Noise CDR then is put on the PC for one time and went then in some Collectors Boxes. This is a market Strategy too. Its senseless after all, but also reality.
Second Point is that you surely can download all stuff in the net, so its not needet to limit the stuff more, since someone will upload it on a Blog or you make it yourself. After releasing it takes 4-5 Days to find it on a Blog. And there is also the Question, what with the Deadstock. And Projects who are now big, can be smal again in little time. There is no garantee that they can sell everytime the same among. So, it makes sense in this way, when bigger projects limit the releases to sell them out fast and have no Backstock and have not overflown the Customers, that the next release will also sell out. Also a Selling Strategy. Its surely not good and the problems are clear, but it is just an answer and an idea bout the issue
Quote from: Goat93 on December 28, 2010, 12:17:43 PM15 Years back there were closed "Scenes", the People listen mostly to one Music, if Noise, Metal, Punk or whatever. Nowadays the People listen to ALL Music at the same time.
Do you really think so? I'd suggest that if anything, it's the other way around, since there's so many micro-genres around that a person can almost dwell exclusively on Noise even if they're going from Wall Noise to Harsh Noise to "just" Noise and on and on. But really, I think while most people will dwell on one or two genres for the most part, there's not many people who exclusively listen to just one genre. I'm sure there are such people, but I'd suggest they're in a minority.
Other than that, I think you make a few good points.
This thread has been quite an insight for me on peoples oppinions on this whole issue. As someone who has recently started to try and push a small label this is of huge interest to me.
My reasoning for limiting the first release to 50 CDrs was simply to test the waters, so to speak, to see if I could actually shift a release in the first place. So far so good, we have managed to shift a few in a short space of time.
I think if we sell all 50 and people still want more then I will do more. And I also plan to have unlimited digital releases in a choice of FLAC or MP3 etc, of every release once the CDs have sold out. (Although there seems to be a bit of a stigma within the Noise/Whatever you want to call it scene about digital.)
My intention is to build up the label to a point where we can do special edition releases of limited vinyl with special packaging or artwork, still at a minimum cost possible, and a standard run of CDs with booklet etc. I know that this will take time to build up, so I am taking things one step at a time.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on December 28, 2010, 01:22:53 PM
Its true that the people listen to any kind they like all the time, but the Focus were morely in one Section than in all at the same time. Its not unusual that the bandwide reaches all over the Musicgenres, since back in time the Identifikation were more. A Metalhead would listen more to metal than any other music genre ;)
The Splittering in Subgenres were an effect of this, too. Since the People want an Identification to be "more thatn music" or be in a "way of live" they need also such an identification. And "Music" as genre is not really such a thing. Since Black Metal is Popular, they needet names to be Black Metal but "true" or "evil" or anything they can differ from Pop Music. But thats only a Minority of course.
People should release less.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 28, 2010, 10:07:03 AMThis is probably more accurate, but then we get into question, do you need marketing ploy to ensure sales of 20? Or... 6? If you have for example HNW CDR set ltd 6 copies, do you need to post it all over internet, if you already know about 10 times more people who you could mail direct, who are the ones who buy it.
This needed to be said and not just a glancing thought. Good point. This is about ego...or convention...or anything that makes any sense.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 28, 2010, 10:07:03 AMDemand, is not something you can measure by seeing what happens when release is NOT available. It is something what you can measure when it IS available. With discussions of various label bosses, many say that after edition sold out, they didn't get any inquiries about it. Of course not. It gets more and more rare, that someone actually approaches label or band to ask what they have, since everybody's aim is to sell out and have nothing. As soon as possible. This is the modern method of any business. Everybody claims the warehouse full of stuff is bad for business. And then you ask, so is your band your business? Is all you value current market tactics?
Like this paragraph a lot. I'd be curious to watch this discussion.
When I'd get an order for something that had been out for a couple years, it was fun and exciting. The order was usually accompanied by an enthusiastic note, maybe telling of "I just got into this group, so it is nice to be able to order a copy of this record without having to watch eBay or beg for a copy on message boards." Running a label is supposed to be fun and experiential, correct? Rather than this strict business mode of "Thank goodness I sold another copy. I'm tired of the fucking things being in the house." It's all about perspective, and there are many to take. Unfortunately, the perspectives most traveled at this time are really sort of sad and counter-productive.
on a totally unrelated side note, its great to see this forum active. you can't get well-thought-out threads going like this because of the endless supply of idiots, trolls and delusional assholes on troniks....
Mikko wanted to discuss about LOGIC. I have more free time so I can write something more here.
Mentioned LOGIC OF MICRO RELEASE, in my opinion, come from here:
1. Aspect of real underground art who grow up from DADA (SCHWITTERS' s or PICABIA's works), MAIL ART and next from INTERNATIONAL CASSETTE NETWORK. Motto was: ART IS NOT PRODUCT, especially, NOT MASS PRODUCT. Next motto: ART IS FOR ART even if ART must be ANTI-ART.
2. Aspect of ANTI-CULTURAL which is against cornerstones of consumerism. mass-media and capitalysm. If mentioned elements of dominating system are based on mass production, all anti-cultural circle should question this system and offer different, based on uniqueness and intentional reduced of done products.
3. Aspect of ANTI-ART / ANTI-MUSIC which questions all forms of habits, standards and canons in classic ART and its next clones, and first of all, in brain of customers.
At the complete opposite end of the spectrum is the lack of logic of over pressing (touched upon in a previous post) . I noticed on another board a new 3 cd compilation in an edition of 1000 featuring 50 bands, only one (maybe two) of which I recognized as "bands" (though I did recognize some user names from the board). An over-ambitious rookie "mistake" from a newish label usually doing editions of 10-50?
Quote from: SKY BURIAL on December 28, 2010, 05:20:37 PM
An over-ambitious rookie "mistake" from a newish label usually doing editions of 10-50?
Im not sure if its fair to call it a mistake if the guy wants to do a bigger release. do I remember our fair mod making posts about the price difference of 500 to 1000 copies pressed. there was hardly any so why not go for the bigger one if the label guy wants to do that.
mistake is a mistake, this was done on purpose.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on December 28, 2010, 04:56:04 PM
Mikko wanted to discuss about LOGIC. I have more free time so I can write something more here.
Mentioned LOGIC OF MICRO RELEASE, in my opinion, come from here:
1. Aspect of real underground art who grow up from DADA (SCHWITTERS' s or PICABIA's works), MAIL ART and next from INTERNATIONAL CASSETTE NETWORK. Motto was: ART IS NOT PRODUCT, especially, NOT MASS PRODUCT. Next motto: ART IS FOR ART even if ART must be ANTI-ART.
2. Aspect of ANTI-CULTURAL which is against cornerstones of consumerism. mass-media and capitalysm. If mentioned elements of dominating system are based on mass production, all anti-cultural circle should question this system and offer different, based on uniqueness and intentional reduced of done products.
3. Aspect of ANTI-ART / ANTI-MUSIC which questions all forms of habits, standards and canons in classic ART and its next clones, and first of all, in brain of customers.
This I find valid, when it is really artistic choice, based on ideology or aesthetic. I would accept it as logic, yet I wouldn't believe it's reality within most of labels in question, but motivations are rather different (discussed above).
In case of your label, we can see that majority of releases are hand made, often different, sometimes even innovative packaging, and also hand numbered. It underlines the logic of personality and having hands-on approach to every single piece that is done. As opposed to factory product. This, besides that they are actually made available, and decent editions, I find no complaints.
Yet, one could also look at other artforms, where mass production and perhaps rejection of art for sake of art has been abandoned and the reach of people or availability of material is the ideal. Not the exclusiveness. And perhaps, when one looks at the statement number 2, when the consumerism is directed towards the collectible limited trophies, and there is whole market what feeds on this shallow urge, what is the more artistic about it? What is more unique about it? Especially if we look at the actual sonic content of many of them?
The manifest is nice, yet it reminds me of new issue of VICE actually!
So lets look the the latest issue of VICE magazine, which includes Hermann Nitsch, Cosey Fanny Tutti, and various other people. In the "funny mocking remarks section", maybe called "do's and don'ts" of this art issue, they present photo of white canvas with text: "So lemme get this straight. It's the year 2010 and your art is a canvas painted white? So you're attempting to challenge my preconceived notions of challenging my preconceived notions of what art is?".
Glorification of limited items based on past centuries distaste against factory product seems slightly out of place if one could see that we aren't really talking about alternative or solution, rather than new kind of problem, which wasn't perhaps expected. Like white canvas now, seems like the lamest artschool fags attempt to do something easy as fuck, and pretend as if meant something. When all he need, is someone to teach him what could be better angle to approach this. And nothing wrong with it. Life's about learning, isn't it?
Off topic, yet Nitsch interview is actually nice, when he puts it well in words, when he is asked about nature is his works. At least he claims, he never intended to shock. He is not looking for shock effect, but he seeks for pure intensity. And as lame and blood and guts may feel when its done and seen, in some of the archetypical way it just remain intense.
Quote from: niko penttinen on December 28, 2010, 07:19:21 PM
Im not sure if its fair to call it a mistake if the guy wants to do a bigger release.
Thus my use of quotations around the word "mistake". Not meaning to criticize the person for wanting to go bigger, I was just surprised at the ambition behind a triple cd with a draw that seems limited. I'm not a stranger to these boards so I was surprised at only recognizing one or two of fifty acts. I can't fault anyone for their passion.
big edition makes it possible to give out more copies to the artists, especially when theres so many and still break even/make proffit. dont know if that happening heh heh but there is the possibility.
Quote from: niko penttinen on December 28, 2010, 10:08:21 PM
big edition makes it possible to give out more copies to the artists, especially when theres so many and still break even/make proffit. dont know if that happening heh heh but there is the possibility.
Makes sense. Give each artist 10 copies each and there's half the press run but with 500 hundred already out there with the bands it seems like market saturation leaving little room to sell even one copy.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 28, 2010, 07:49:24 PM
And perhaps, when one looks at the statement number 2, when the consumerism is directed towards the collectible limited trophies, and there is whole market what feeds on this shallow urge, what is the more artistic about it? What is more unique about it? Especially if we look at the actual sonic content of many of them? The manifest is nice, yet it reminds me of new issue of VICE actually!
I see your doubts about consumerism in that context and I aggree with you. I thought about other form of consumerism, more popular in society. Many consumers (unfortunately me too sometimes), even in underground scene, relent "mystique" of uniqueness. They think that micro release within noise can be something like VAN GOGH's or PICASSO's paintings. They can feel like owners of those paintings... Maybe this is funny, but I don't see in that any problem for me as consumer, for artist (who makes arrangement with label before about number of copies to sell), and for ART/MUSIC where are thousands records to listen and nobody says that we will able to listen or get all of them.
Quote from: SKY BURIAL on December 28, 2010, 05:20:37 PM
I noticed on another board a new 3 cd compilation in an edition of 1000 featuring 50 bands, only one (maybe two) of which I recognized as "bands" (though I did recognize some user names from the board).
I think a few others are fairly well known, but just outside the scope of the forum. Mono No Aware, Black Lung, Hypnoskull, 100Blumen and Snog are more associated with electro-industrial labels than "noise" in the strict sense.
Forgive me to revive this dead topic, but the search function yielded no results to my question.
I see no reason to NOT do UNLIMITED editions of the tapes I make. I tend to do 50-100 and have even begun doing 150-200. I feel as if I'm doing an artist injustice by making something like 30 copies.
My question is: If I were to do unlimited copies, what would you guys deem an appropriate number of artist copies? I usually do 20-25% never less (I've gone as much as 33% going to artists with the ANHEDONIA comp).
Mathematically, 20% of infinity (theoretically unlimited) doesn't exist [it should technically be infinity]. Any thoughts?
Do you think I should make 100 (or 200, etc) and give a percentage of the number I make? Then if I make more, give them a percentage?
I've released limited editions and bought plenty alike. I think as a new label, there is a large degree of water-testing for many. Some people will progress past this, some people will make it their niche. There is a place for both, but there does come a point as a noise consumer where the limitedness of a given release can be a detrimental factor - see a tape/cdr/lathe on forum, < 20 copies, lots of interest/discussion, assume sold out, move on to next thread. It's an assumption that is unfair on the artist and label perhaps, but one I would imagine to be fairly common? Happy to be corrected on this if not the case.
I've backed off from releases for the time being as I felt that I wasn't really doing the label "thing" justice. Something I may pick up again some day but financially out of the question right now.
And in terms of of a new artist pumping out shit at a thousand miles an hour, my first tape came out around this time 2009. 50 copies through my own label, a handful remaining. The second release? Maybe one day soon, no rush.
"Then if I make more, give them a percentage?"
That's the deal on tapes Gaping Hole releases. % of the original batch then more artist copies if he does another run. So far, I don't think another batch of the MANIA tape has been made. First 100 probably never sold out though I should inquire...
I would think for most PE/HN tapes, 100 is enough & for most vinyl, 200-300 is more than enough. Someone like Genocide Organ could easily do 1000 LPs & sell out maybe a couple of months later than just pressing 500. I can't imagine even Prurient selling out more than 1000 Lps & copies being very hard to find.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 19, 2010, 10:37:16 AM
Disgust, the band I see is being worshipped by some people as great new force bending the line between pe &.. ehm.. "grind"? Perhaps close to old Bloodyminded?
Not so much bending the line but as Andy from the Endless Blockade put, Power Electronics with a Power Violence influence (mentality, ideals, imagery, covers of songs, etc). I'm probably misquoting Andy but I've forgotten what page its on, on his survivalist blogspot.
Who's Bloodyminded?
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on September 29, 2011, 09:46:53 PM
"Then if I make more, give them a percentage?"
That's the deal on tapes Gaping Hole releases. % of the original batch then more artist copies if he does another run. So far, I don't think another batch of the MANIA tape has been made. First 100 probably never sold out though I should inquire...
I would think for most PE/HN tapes, 100 is enough & for most vinyl, 200-300 is more than enough. Someone like Genocide Organ could easily do 1000 LPs & sell out maybe a couple of months later than just pressing 500. I can't imagine even Prurient selling out more than 1000 Lps & copies being very hard to find.
What about CD runs? the 300-500 range is typically more than you could ever need to print unless you're CMI or Tesco. 300-500 is usually the minimum (for Euro and US respectively), and while it's great (and actually cheaper) to press things in bulk order of 1000, I don't see the backroom label really effectively moving 1000 units over the course of the few years that most labels operate...
I have no clue on cd runs (just didn't think about'em). Seems like 500 is more than enough. 1000 would last for a few years probably. If one runs a distro & has the space then having releases that are available for a year(s) is a good thing. Some titles may sell then nothing then interest can pick up again. After money has been made back, you can always lower the price, run specials...
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on September 30, 2011, 03:20:35 AM
Who's Bloodyminded?
Amazing.
Thanks for the suggestions guys. Since I started doing 100, I've only sold out of 1 (the AODL) and almost another (the Urine Cop/Vomir).
Surprisingly, I get asked about old Deterge stuff the most and (painfully) have to say it's sold out. I guess I'm really just screwing myself over there though.
Quote from: Nyodene D on September 30, 2011, 06:14:43 PM
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on September 29, 2011, 09:46:53 PM
"Then if I make more, give them a percentage?"
That's the deal on tapes Gaping Hole releases. % of the original batch then more artist copies if he does another run. So far, I don't think another batch of the MANIA tape has been made. First 100 probably never sold out though I should inquire...
I would think for most PE/HN tapes, 100 is enough & for most vinyl, 200-300 is more than enough. Someone like Genocide Organ could easily do 1000 LPs & sell out maybe a couple of months later than just pressing 500. I can't imagine even Prurient selling out more than 1000 Lps & copies being very hard to find.
What about CD runs? the 300-500 range is typically more than you could ever need to print unless you're CMI or Tesco. 300-500 is usually the minimum (for Euro and US respectively), and while it's great (and actually cheaper) to press things in bulk order of 1000, I don't see the backroom label really effectively moving 1000 units over the course of the few years that most labels operate...
Depends of Luck and how much promotion you run. Mostly 300 are more than enough, but when something is catched by "Fans", you can sell lots more. Otherwise, as typicial Paradoxe, much stuff sells at Ebay for insane prices and a Repress won't sell well.
Small editions were not a huge problem before the internet. When I did tapes in the '90s, the edition was decided on basically how many people I was writing at the time or how many tapes I felt like making (It was never an issue to make up a few more if needed). Of course, now it's so much easier to sell so making 20 copies of a tape and announcing it publicly is pretty ridiculous. Anyone should have 20 contacts to sell to privately.
I thought it was about very very small tapes.
I have no problems with limited releases, especially if they're somehow worth it: elaborated packaging, weird inserts..
It's hard not to ponder The Ubearable Fagotry of Being when a release "limited to 9" is shouted from the rooftops by some wall loser. It only gets better when the same fat loser announces an hour or so later that it's "sold out". As if it's an achievement or something.