Hopefully I'm not making a faux-pas here, intent is for discussion because I'm curious what the general opinions are about this. Piracy is obviously terrible, but in this game practically a majority of classic records are lost to the ages or whatever lucky 20-odd people still have them. I've seen Discogs profiles happily offering rips of unavailable items in their collection, and I've seen ones where people outright refuse to "waste their time".
So what does everyone think? If you're against sharing, why? Is it an elitist sort of thing? Keep the party small, once something gets too popular it's not cool anymore? It should be obvious case-by-case whether the artist stands any chance of financial benefit. In some cases one could argue original intent, I suppose, still not sure what's up with Mlehst's whole "masters-destroying" spiel, and the Broken Flag implosion and rebirth is old hat.
How is Dead Body Love so idolized and yet so unavailable?
But yeah, so what's the dealio?
I used to convert all of my cassettes to digital files via Audacity. when I use soulseek, which is infrequently at best, I'd share the rare and oop stuff. but i'd normally be on for 1hr to 3hrs tops so I don't get a ton of downloads.
I personally provide digital copies of OOP Concrete Mascara stuff if people ask because why not. if people are interested in checking out my stuff, I don't see any reason to make it harder for them (and also the amount of OOP CM material is pretty small).
Personally I don't see any harm in sharing digital versions of wildly OOP tapes and LPs. I'll probably never be willing to spend the money on an original copy of Genocide Organ's Mind Control so I'll settle for the MP3s of that. i would assume 99% of people are in that boat. and if you can find a rip of a Swedish noise tape that was all but impossible to get unless you're one of the "cool guys" that artist will sell to, then fuck it, download the rip. No new support eh? Fine I'll take your music for free then :P
but then there are other releases I won't download because I'd rather hunt for them and get the final satisfaction of hearing the physical copy whenever that may be. I would guess everyone has their own philosophy about it.
Quote from: PedestrianOrgans on April 25, 2018, 05:22:55 PM
So what does everyone think? If you're against sharing, why? Is it an elitist sort of thing? Keep the party small, once something gets too popular it's not cool anymore? It should be obvious case-by-case whether the artist is stands any chance of financial benefit from the album in question. Nobody's going to drop 400 bones on "NATO-Uniformen" thinking any of that is going to Alberich or Dom. In some cases one could argue original intent, I suppose, still not sure what's up with Mlehst's whole "masters-destroying" spiel, and the Broken Flag implosion and rebirth is old hat.
NATO-Uniformen is actually available for download on the Hospital website as well as many others on the label. That way the artists actually do get a cut of the money per download. Good way to do it I think.
That's good for things like that, I actually took advantage for that and Dracula Syndrome, but I'll admit I made this post in a fit of frustration about Dead Body Love, after mostly giving up on a lot of those old Mlehst tapes haha. Just seems like several people have and love "Tumours" but I see no way to buy or download it or listen to it. A couple other ones also.
Quote from: PedestrianOrgans on April 25, 2018, 05:22:55 PM
Nobody's going to drop 400 bones on "NATO-Uniformen" thinking any of that is going to Alberich or Dom.
https://boomkat.com/products/nato-uniformen
This is where I recently purchased said product from.
Haha, YES INDEED it is super convenient that Dom Fernow likes to keep his stuff available digitally, and clearly he likes to reissue OOP classics but Alberich was supposed to be an example of how getting the original cassette box from another collector wouldn't benefit the artist or label at all.
The problem I'm having is with the hordes of other tapes and artists and labels that aren't still around or aren't still running, where getting a hold of the music at all requires either waiting for someone to MAYBE sell a copy for hundreds of dollars, or if you're a slug like me going around asking them if they'll share or trade.
I just don't understand why it should be so difficult to just LISTEN to a particular record in 2018 when you're perfectly willing to pay for a copy, trade for, or pay for a download of it. However, since there's no option to directly support the artist anymore then you might as well give up. It's bizarre to me that people will let music that's already so obscure die out because they won't waste their time sharing it or are too Comic Book Guy to open the tape.
*pulls stick out of ass*
If you could fuck every woman on the planet, you wouldn't enjoy fucking. More likely you would prefer your handpalm than any of them after a while.
We can't have them all. That's life. Enjoy what you have, what you ll get, and keep trying for those you wish.
Thrill of the find is better than the instant gratification of download anyway.
Quote from: PTM Jim on April 26, 2018, 11:00:49 PM
Thrill of the find is better than the instant gratification of download anyway.
I agree on a baseline level, but I will say there are albums I downloaded first and bought years and years later and the enjoyment of finally getting a hard-copy was not diminished at all.
But a man's got to have a code.
I agree also, but I agree with Concrete on the basis that the frustration of never being able to hear something until that one-in-a-million copy comes along is WAY worse than having the find dulled a bit.
True.
But also true, I do need to simmer down my butthurt, haha. Sorry guys.
Quote from: PTM Jim on April 26, 2018, 11:00:49 PM
Thrill of the find is better than the instant gratification of download anyway.
I will agree with this but it's 2018 and every asshat with an internet connection can rip out a discogs quote so the odds of a "classic find" are rapidly diminishing. I found a Klaus Schulze LP for $15.99 today and I was fucking thrilled. It was the coolest legit find I've made in a while.
Plus given the cost having the ability to sample is so helpful. I find coming across a classic these days that I know I like and I don't worry about shelling out $30 for an LP is about as good as it gets.
Here's another weird tidbit for y'all: why is discogs banning the sale of bootlegs? It's not like a second hand sale of a legit press is any different than a second hand sale of a bootleg. Like thanks discogs, where an I going to get them GISM boots now?
It is inexcusable that out of print releases be uploaded as mp3s. They should be ripped to wave files.
Just go .flac all the way all the time.
Anybody here have Dead Body Love stuff hiding around? Figured I'd ask, and I mean more in the sense of the thread, there's a couple I'm missing that I'll never find. Nabbed a couple of the CD reissues at least.
I don't like MP3s but I trade a lot of tapes and tape dubs. I don't mind tape dubs with good xerox of a cover for some limited tape that came out 25 years ago and vanished into complete underground obscurity. But the amount of people who can't be arsed dubbing tapes, or want to send you the latest thing available in every distro for some obscure awesome stuff is depressing. People don't want to hunt, don't want to share, and they're all about fighting to get the biggest deal possible and make the less effort possible. Fuck that mentality.
See now I think you mistake me a little bit. I love hunting for records more than probably anything else. I'd never give that up that "thrill of the hunt" but... things that were released in 30 copies over 30 years ago, never reissued and are wildly collectible now, it's just statistics that you're probably not getting one. And who knows how many are even still out there or not destroyed in like 2003 by a dog or something?
No, no, I'm just basically complaining about people who don't have dual tape decks yet shell out hundreds of €£¥$ each month on tapes/records, behave like hoarders and are all about posting in record score threads online but never contribute anything anywhere. Sorry for being French, complaining and going on strike is serious business here, hehe...
Quote from: holy ghost on April 28, 2018, 04:48:14 AM
Here's another weird tidbit for y'all: why is discogs banning the sale of bootlegs? It's not like a second hand sale of a legit press is any different than a second hand sale of a bootleg.
That's a good question, i hadn't thought before. I think they do it cause if they allow it there will be a mess. People will start doing their own bootlegs -tapes, CDR- , adding them and try to sell them. Multiple times more bootlegs than those added now. The database will become full of shit.
- - -
On another note : i am annoyed by the mentality "I have money, i want them all, i want them now" .
True again, but where's the difference between patience and persistence when it's not something you're really "waiting for" as something rare and coveted you have to collect?
Discogs is just covering their legal ass when it comes to bootlegs. With how litigious our culture is, it's not worth the chance. There's some moral limbo in there as well, but [I feel] most of their action is about potential legal issues.
On one of the major torrent sites, there's a small group who take pleasure, and possibly pride, in ripping tapes and records. I suspect they're going through their own collections for archival purposes and sharing along the way for that odd new currency: ratio. Get on it to see what they're doing. You'd be surprised what they're ultimately protecting for the future. In the greater scheme, there's a smallish group of people whose hobby is making super high quality vinyl rips and spending several thousands of dollars on their ripping rigs (no exaggeration), always upgrading and changing those rigs in pursuit of the ultimate rip. It's kind of amazing, really. You aren't going to readily find much in the way of what would be discussed on this message board, but the point is that the hobby does exist. And if you were desperate and trusting enough, they almost all have open invitations to send them your records so they can rip them at said high quality, after which they would return your records. They're just really into ripping and sharing vinyl. They clearly enjoy that particular tedium.
There are a lot of demographics and perspectives in all of this. Hoarding is only one of them. Laziness is another.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 28, 2018, 04:58:12 AM
It is inexcusable that out of print releases be uploaded as mp3s. They should be ripped to wave files.
not always necessary, if the best source file available is a tape copy of a master tape.
Quote from: PedestrianOrgans on April 28, 2018, 07:12:50 PM
True again, but where's the difference between patience and persistence when it's not something you're really "waiting for" as something rare and coveted you have to collect?
Persistence is good and i support it. Let's talk about persistence. These old rare tapes in your wantlist, there are guys wanting them for years, decade, and still searching. You seem somewhat surprised and disappointed cause one month of trying in a forum and a note of "money is not a issue" didn't help you. To me this looks like more of desperation cause "i can't have now" than persistence. Maybe i am wrong but that's the impression i have. Also, be sure that money is not an issue for some of these guys too. So if we could say than anyone "deserves" the tape, who would that be ? Also note, what works the other way round too, that maybe money is not an issue for people who have these tapes as well. They prefer to keep them, and if they decide to give away, unless in big need for money, they maybe prefer a friend to sale to or trade with.
I don't say this for you to stop or change anything. We just talking. And if i am annoyed by something that's my problem actually, that shouldn't anyone cares. I am saying you these cause you better accept the fact that some things we will never have. That's it. And if you ask me, it's for good, better this way. If you find 1-3 of these tapes in a period of time you should not be just happy but excited. Still i feel you will be disappointed cause you didn't find everything, now !
Persistance pays though. Last month I got my two major tape wants after years of searching. They don't even appear on Discogs. One I only saw a picture of once, the other one I just heard of through discussion. I never saw them on any lists, the bands didn't have them or wouldn't reply back. But now I have them. Life doesn't feel better though.
Thinking you have to hold out for years to ever even stand a chance of hearing a ltd to 20 tape for the sake of some record collector, physical format snobbery endurance props is the most bullshit false economy nonsense you could possibly vomit into a discussion like this. I'm sorry that the lay of the land was different in the past and that people give a shit about these things 30 years on but that's the way it is. You're mostly talking about people here that would jump at the chance to own the fucking thing if it was in any way possible.
Could it at all be possible that a wider availability of tape rips/vinyl rips might *GASP* lead to a shortage of people who are prepared to continue propping up the autistic Discogs culture of sweating and worrying about when some arsehole in Belgium is finally prepared to let go of his copy of rare item?
Sorry mates, I'm typing this in a room absolutely packed with tapes, records, cds and cdrs but I'll be fucked if I'm going to to buy into the stupid idea that the only honourable way to hear a release is purchasing it for too much money off some opportunist wanker. How many of those original copies do you think were probably traded in the first place anyway? Jesus.
YES PLEASE to tape rips/blogs/torrents of impossible to get stuff. The real issue here is who can be fucked to do it I suppose.
EVEN MORE YES PLEASE to sensible, widely available, affordable CD reissue collections of this kind of thing so I can actually pay someone to hear it without taking part in the charade of scrambling over rare originals.
The hunt for records will never end so why not make it easier when you can and enjoy a digital copy until you find one?
It is the way it is, either one agrees or not, it doesn't change. I have no problem waiting for years to get hold of the X impossible-to-find tape cause i know and have accepted the fact that more likely i wouldn't hold it at all, never, like many others. So if it comes, when it comes, is a very welcome gift. That i don't expect it to be cheap ofcource. Is someone who has a rare item an idiot ? He doesn't know what he has and how much money it worths in the market ? I don't think so ... Has anyone sold a rare item he had deadly cheap -intentionally- on a marketplace like Discogs ? Who ? If so, he has every right to ask others to do the same or accusing them if they don't.
Same for rips. I will be the first to download such a rip and say a thanks. But is it a big deal ? No. The same you will say about the item itself. OK, i am with you. The physical finding has more thrill, more excitement, more joy, more of an achievement, but after all ... Bazooka put it perfectly hehe. "Life doesn't feel better" .
Ask yourself, is that 20 minutes of music on the rare tape we want ? When we have hours and hours of other material from the same artist easily available ? With very few exceptions the answer is No. We -OK, i ll speak for myself- , I want something to want to. Meanwhile, i can live without it and i do.
People asking for rips. But have you people ripped your entire collection -or the rare ones- and shared it ?
Quote from: Soloman Tump on April 28, 2018, 08:06:39 PM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 28, 2018, 04:58:12 AM
It is inexcusable that out of print releases be uploaded as mp3s. They should be ripped to wave files.
not always necessary, if the best source file available is a tape copy of a master tape.
I don't see how that makes a difference and I don't agree. Simply because it's just as easy to rip and upload a wave file as an mp3 file. The only difference is how long it takes and that's nominal. If you can get the better sound quality easily enough it makes no sense not to.
I've created a monster
cuz nobody wants these cassettes anymore they want .wav files and nice rippers
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 29, 2018, 03:32:16 AM
If you can get the better sound quality easily enough it makes no sense not to.
so why in 2018 do people still insist on releasing stuff as a limited edition cassette.....
See now I'm never sure anymore if people are INTENTIONALLY creating this "rarity void" that makes their stuff seem more collectible or if it really does lie with lack of funding or materials. Maybe some of both.
used soulseek back in the days to get old unavailable stuff and deleting them as soon they were reissued... it was also good to get weird stuff that was impossible to find.
Quote from: Soloman Tump on April 29, 2018, 01:05:21 PM
[so why in 2018 do people still insist on releasing stuff as a limited edition cassette.....
Because people are stupid. I thought everyone knew that.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 29, 2018, 05:09:55 PM
Quote from: Soloman Tump on April 29, 2018, 01:05:21 PM
[so why in 2018 do people still insist on releasing stuff as a limited edition cassette.....
Because people are stupid. I thought everyone knew that.
Because a physical release is way more satisfying in every way possible than downloading a file.
It's 2018 and an entire spectrum of format appreciation is well established with regards to noise.
Yet still we are afraid to discuss low run media editions for what they so often are: false economies & learned behaviour.
Why would anyone "be afraid" to discuss low runs?
My Discogs wantlist just popped up a reissue of Macro's "Whorechestra" and the original tape back-to-back, $10 vs. €40 for from what I can tell, a couple BDSM photos in a J-card booklet and the pleasure of having an "original". There's definitely some sort of psychological thing going on with that.
From an artistic point of view, I would want my work yo be experienced by as many people as possible.
If a limited tape / vinyl / CD run satisfies the hardcore collectors then great. But I would want that backed up with paid downloads for anyone else. If the legal paid downloads are not available then the only other option is an illegal rip.
i see no problem in sharing mp3/wave files of tapes that no one figured anyone would want back in the 80s. used soulseek and blogs to get streicher obscurities. IR does reissues making those low bitrate mp3 rip of years old bulk ferric tape absolutely obsolete. purchased CDs but ....
Quote from: Euro Trash Bazooka on April 28, 2018, 11:38:40 PM
Life doesn't feel better
because there will always be the want to have the "true first" and own a little piece of history. the thrill of the hunt and so on.
Quote from: PedestrianOrgans on April 29, 2018, 04:44:07 AMI've created a monster
cuz nobody wants these cassettes anymore they want .wav files and nice rippers
Sarcasm? I hope so.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on April 29, 2018, 10:45:46 PMBecause a physical release is way more satisfying in every way possible than downloading a file.
A couple of people just in this thread are telling you that isn't true for them. Thus, it's not something you can state universally.
Downloading is not all that dissimilar to buying. Both are actions. Neither are the end game (usually). They're actions by way we arrive to an end: listening. I don't get excited about downloading. I also no longer get excited about buying something. Neither action gives me any sense of euphoria or satisfaction. But I remain excited about listening. That's where the satisfaction is
for me. The listening. And then you can talk about learned behavior, trends, and all the social stuff involved in the process. They're worth discussion. But man,
listening is THE shit.
EDIT: and then we can talk about the listening and that process. lossy vs lossless etc. Considering I feel it safe to assume we're all lovers of sound and music here, how much sense does it make that we put more thought, effort, and emotion into downloading vs physical artifact than we do the quality of playback? Just as an example, if you could buy a cassette of average 2018 quality in standard-type packaging or 24bit lossless files of the same material direct from the artists's master files (or otherwise), why would you downplay the files?
I wasn't stating anything "universally". I was speaking for myself & you would have to be an idiot to think otherwise.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on April 30, 2018, 12:57:11 AM
I wasn't stating anything "universally". I was speaking for myself & you would have to be an idiot to think otherwise.
Seems like your statement was a definitive one. It sure read like that, but hey, I'm an idiot.
Low runs are more about economic reality in this scene. For one, most people don't have the money to put out unlimited hundreds of tapes. And for another, there just isn't the market for that many, especially in a scene like this. I think even artists who are the better known would only sell something like up to five hundred copies of any physical release. You need to be Whitehouse or Merzbow or maybe something like Genocide Organ to even start scratching the thousands and even then it'll be very low. We just don't have the numbers.
But there is an element of learned behaviour if by that I take it it's following a scene's fetishes and aesthetics. I don't doubt people genuinely enjoy the aesthetics of grubby looking photocopied tape covers or elaborate limited-edition arty packaged things, it's all very visual and tactile and so forth. A lot of it comes down to the collector's bug as well. People love having shelves of tapes and records and cds and books and things. You've got a visual statement of your tastes right there in front of you. It's like some kind of achievement, buying and owning all that stuff.
Which isn't even just restricted to physical formats, as I've got to admit there's a ton of information on my hard-drives that I just don't need and only seem to have because I could (I can't be the only person in the world with more Merzbow than I'll ever actually listen to). Fortunately deleting a file is a lot easier than trying to sell or give away an album or tape. That's another great thing about the convenience of digital files - don't like it, just delete it.
I have no idea what satisfaction there is to derive from a physical format any more. I've been through all that. For me it's the opposite - there's a lot more satisfaction having pure sound that I can easily and quickly download than go through all the ridiculous motions of getting some plastic thing in the mail that I have to pay a great deal more money for. Or not, as the case has been when plastic things I've paid a great deal more money for have just disappeared in the mail.
I think the satisfaction of physical media is the hands-on visceral aspect like anything else. Good food and clothes that do the job as an adult, comics and shit you built as a kid, you know? Booze and/or drugs for some. Blah blah, yadda yadda. Like anything else, gets to lose its edge with excessive indulgence (collecting and fanboyism in my personal experience) but in moderation and the right (personal) reasons/applications, making worthwhile and enhancing life experiences...like anything else.
With collections, I don't see it as a statement of taste since I don't even talk about my tastes with many friends with a handful of exceptions. A personal library of sound like a bookshelf is literally a private library. And it's not even really a "real collection," being that with some glaring exceptions I'm willing to rotate the old holdouts out for new wants in terms of selling and trading. It's organic and changes with time, like the human brain. As with memories, you risk losing old ones in creating new ones. It's life, and I embrace it. To me, that's only materialistic in a very superficial sense. If I collected whole discographies of bands and entire label runs, that'd be something else entirely and neither my idea of what makes art/sound a worthwhile experience nor something I even want to have the time for.
I'm not a format snob but I admit holding out for the "real" thing is usually my way. Downloading, even paying for downloads, doesn't bother me, though it's not my preference. Like the contrast between grade-A spank material and actually fucking/getting fucked. There's an obvious choice but sometimes you go with the lesser.
And limited, small-run tapes in 2018? Because it's convenient, cost-effective, and realistic. I know damn well only a small handful of people give two shits for what I do, so I'm not going to put too much energy into "releasing" one thing when I've already started work in some way on the next. Sure, it'd be great if a bigger audience could justify a bigger investment in larger editions and some professionalism, but I'm not an idealist, I'm a pragmatist/realist.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 30, 2018, 02:56:15 AM
That's another great thing about the convenience of digital files - don't like it, just delete it.
I have to admit there's something genuinely satisfying about deleting a piece of crap music, particularly in mid-listen. "This will be permanently removed... Are you sure?" Hell yeah I'm sure, sayonara motherfucker!
There's something about collecting physical records that is like absolutely nothing else. I'm sure this is what "car guys" feel working on their engine or something similar, it's just some insane addiction that you've determined to be worth sinking your spare money into. Because people want spare money to spend on their "thing" or their "stuff", and my stuff happens to be records/tapes/CDs whatever. "If it makes you happy", "whatever floats your boat", and all that whatnot.
But ON THE OTHER HAND, I've been trying to get my hands on Taint material and in the last day or so all the copies of "Vice" disappeared from Discogs. I'm pretty sure Keith is still around *ahem* and doesn't have a box of vinyls hanging around, so ya know...wat do