As many people who listen noise, tend to also make noise, in what way that works for you own listening? Can you listen your own works for pleasure, or will it be endless I should have, I could have, why did I... -session?
While making material, do you listen "unfinished works" to what extent? Do you return to your old releases or just hope to move on after potentially getting burned on listening it too much while making? Or that it wasn't necessarily made for you to listen to in first place?
Or possibly... liking what you hear so much, that concluding it's ideal for your own listening habits?
Any surprising discoveries of older material what effected your current creative process?
I've found myself listening to my own stuff quite often, firstly from a critical point of view, but once enough time has passed that I no longer vividly remember the process of making it (the visual memory of cubase projects, the small accidents that worked in my favour, the arduous process of editing/mixing) and I can listen to it almost as an outsider, I've returned to some releases simply because I enjoy them. This is especially the case with collaborative works- the album I recorded in a proper studio with an actual engineer specifically. I can appreciate his input and touch on the album too so it's not a TOTALLY masturbatory experience to listen and enjoy.
But at the end of the day, we each should be making the noise/music we want to hear. That's the most sincere way of approaching it. I've recorded hours of material that I didn't like enough to release but am proud enough of nonetheless to keep and occasionally listen to.
When i do my stuff i listen it again and again until i think it is good enough or i get sick to hear it, heh..
Then i leave it rest to fair amount time and try to listen it with new ears later and do final edit then and if there is something that i think not work i cut it out or do again.
I usually listen older recordings before i start to do new to avoid too similar structures and learn from my mistakes because i want every record works in its own but still identifiable to my sound on bigger picture.
But short.. yes i listen my old stuff with pleasure when i get some time between hearings and don`t shame anything because it is what my skills are then and mistakes can made songs even better or atleast easier to remember.
If you do not like your own stuff how you expect someone other do?
Quote from: Vermin Marvin on November 28, 2019, 11:52:00 AM
If you do not like your own stuff how you expect someone other do?
In a nutshell!
When I get an idea for a recording, I first have to see what I can do to make sure it doesn't already exist by someone else. It's not that I think I'm 100% original, it's that sometimes "inspiration" comes in the form of me looking at my CDs (or my hard drive) and craving to hear a certain sound, but finding that it's not there, and I just can't quite place it.
In my case, it's usually just a particular take on loops, or a certain spin on "dark ambient", "Industrial noise", "Power Electronics", etc, but other times it is an idea that I couldn't fit into these categories, and I don't know where it comes from. So I'll search, for lack of memory, and then when I can't find it, I'll do what I can to make it myself. Sometimes, but not always, it'll be an idea that would suit a particular feeling/tone/vibe that, while it may not necessarily be "emotional", would still suit me in a time where that particular mood could be complimented by listening to something.
It's always been this way for me, even when I was more musical, but now I look more for non-emotional themes to sounds; things that can't be pegged with the simplified concepts of "sadness" or "anger" etc. When I'm finally finished with something, and this can take a very long time, I don't often listen back unless I am curious about what territories I was trying to figure out at that time, and if I can expand on or add to those territories, or if the territory explored is more or less suitable for my mood at the time of listening.
I listen to my own stuff, over critique, then never release it.
Quote from: Vermin Marvin on November 28, 2019, 11:52:00 AM
If you do not like your own stuff how you expect someone other do?
I would suppose that like previous comment suggests, one may be overtly critical towards his own works.
Many things I'd let pass from others work - and perhaps even hope I
could let it pass - I may not be able to accept it for myself. Lets say album of 2 noise tracks. One per side, blasting good noise. I may enjoy it 100%, yet may not allow it happen with my own "albums". In odd way it may be simply not enough.
To answer some of my own questions, I tend to listen own works excessively until they are released. When something is finally done, it might be anymore reason to check that there are no pressing flaws. By then, it has been listened already so many times. Both, for being critical, but also for liking what I hear.
I return for old albums occasionally to remind me what has been done. To see if they can survive the test of time. there are releases I am not 100% fond of anymore, but I doubt anything I regret doing. I still own almost all the gear I ever had, what was used to make noise. Once in a while I have made attempt to return to specific old era, digging up old efx and methods, see what I can do now in similar settings.
There must be 5 hours of unreleased material from this year. Not all completely finished, of course, but I'm quite sure that fraction of that will make it to 2020.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 29, 2019, 08:18:45 PM
I would suppose that like previous comment suggests, one may be overtly critical towards his own works.
Many things I'd let pass from others work - and perhaps even hope I could let it pass - I may not be able to accept it for myself. Lets say album of 2 noise tracks. One per side, blasting good noise. I may enjoy it 100%, yet may not allow it happen with my own "albums". In odd way it may be simply not enough.
I feel the same way. I can listen to someone else and really enjoy it, but would possibly hate it if I did it. The way I see it, why bother rehashing old ideas, no matter how great they are. Always working toward improvement.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 29, 2019, 08:18:45 PM
I return for old albums occasionally to remind me what has been done. To see if they can survive the test of time. there are releases I am not 100% fond of anymore, but I doubt anything I regret doing. I still own almost all the gear I ever had, what was used to make noise. Once in a while I have made attempt to return to specific old era, digging up old efx and methods, see what I can do now in similar settings.
Also feel the same. Some things I don't necessarily like anymore, but never regret doing it. There was a time and place for it; that was then, this is now so to say. Sometimes I'll have very old recordings unused that find their way edited into current material. They weren't ready back when recorded, but seem to fit now.
As stated earlier, if you don't like your own material, how can you expect anyone else to. I think that is pretty true. Although, at times, when experimenting with new sounds I find myself asking "do I even like this?" but am compelled to release it because sometimes noise should be difficult like that.
If you're able to listen to your own work and process it like other music you enjoy, interesting results can come from this...just having an aural experience without the constant critiquing will allow the sound to do its job. Of course, during a recording process there might need to be some tweaking/mixing/re-recording done so we can make this "outsider" listening experience easier to achieve. Maybe sometimes its the opposite, if we are trying to hang on to a recording that we can't get "just right", maybe only severe spontaneity/re-structuring and experimentation will satisfy our desire to just listen and enjoy our own work. Like Mikko said, there's music/sounds from other artists we will find and definitely enjoy, yet we wouldn't create it ourselves. This occurrence always inspires me to continue exploring and fulfilling my own standards for my music.
As time goes on we can view old works from a different and possibly fresh perspective. This is what I try to do when listening to finished/past works of mine, but its not always easy, and some old stuff doesn't always hold up or bring forth much satisfaction. Most (if not all) of us have had experiences with laziness and taking shortcuts just to get a song over with or quickly produce some seemingly brilliant idea. Sometimes this has even worked as a result, but I think a visceral and memorable recording/mental process holds up to be much stronger in the long run. This must be where so much of the critiquing fails simply because you know what you put into it.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 28, 2019, 10:40:58 AMCan you listen your own works for pleasure, or will it be endless I should have, I could have, why did I... -session?
It used to be the latter a lot, now it's just the former.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 28, 2019, 10:40:58 AMWhile making material, do you listen "unfinished works" to what extent?
Previously recorded material can be re-used. Sometimes it remains "unfinished".
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 28, 2019, 10:40:58 AMDo you return to your old releases or just hope to move on after potentially getting burned on listening it too much while making?
Sometimes listen to old material. Usually just keep recording new material.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 28, 2019, 10:40:58 AMOr that it wasn't necessarily made for you to listen to in first place?
Never.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 28, 2019, 10:40:58 AMOr possibly... liking what you hear so much, that concluding it's ideal for your own listening habits?
That's the point. Not always successfully.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 28, 2019, 10:40:58 AMAny surprising discoveries of older material what effected your current creative process?
Sometimes.
I am not a minimalist at all. I only tend to release stuff that is clearly no longer "source material", because the inner conflict about something never being finished is so ever-present that there's pretty much always room to add something, potentially ruining it. That risk is always taken by me, for good or ill. I have very rarely been satisfied with efforts towards minimalism.
I have really been trying recently to spend more time listening to my own noise. I remember reading here a while ago that one should always listen to what one has recorded before releasing it, so as to make sure that it is sure that it is something that deserves to be put into the world. I have found that this actually helps a lot, and encourages me to push myself to improve my own noise.
Additionally, to echo some comments above, it is interesting to look back on pieces that I recorded a long time ago. I often do not remember the recording process, so it is sometimes surprising to reflect on what I had made!
I do not keep copies of my own releases, and a lot of times I even loose the original masters. Who else does not hold on to their own work?
Quote from: Strangecross on December 17, 2019, 06:08:25 PM
I do not keep copies of my own releases, and a lot of times I even loose the original masters. Who else does not hold on to their own work?
I dont think I have one single master left of anything Ive done. I keep accidentally overdubbing them with sound sources or rock music or whatever. I think I need some sort of system. Like labels saying MASTER.
Quote from: Strangecross on December 17, 2019, 06:08:25 PM
Who else does not hold on to their own work?
I cannot say that I do so (as I have never done a physical release), however, Pasi Markula said that he pretty much gets rid of all/most copies of his own releases (https://www.plaguehaus.com/home/2010/10/07/765/).
If I did have some physical releases of my own, though, I don't think that I could part ways with all of the copies that I produced. I would always want to keep one or two around for the sake of memory.
I keep copies and masters of everything I do. I can't even bring myself to record on tapes of shitty band practices recorded on boomboxes and stuff like that. And I often listen to most of them because I obviously make great music (otherwise why would I bother recording it and putting out most of it, right?
I never keep myself any copies of anything, if somebody wants them, I sell them, but most stuff I have also put on bandcamp so I occasionally go through some of them. I do not "aim to improve" or anything like that. I don't care at all about whether "I am good" or not, it is always a matter of perspective and completely irrelevant. To me they are all captured states of consciousness in a certain time-space-composition. I never have any recollection of any recording processes, but from each album I can hear what my overall state of mind during that period of my life was. Sometimes I feel like listening to them, sometimes I don't. I am more interested in what's ahead and what I am doing next.
When I feel like I've finished something, I listen to it in my car multiple times to make sure I'm 100% happy with it, then I probably won't listen to it again at all. Or if I do, it will be briefly to remind myself how it sounded before I start something new.
As said by others in the thread before me, if I didn't enjoy my work, how could I expect someone else to? Having said that; I have in my mind an idea for a next release focusing on being purposefully boring/annoying/pointless, but that's by the by.
i do listen to my own stuff, especially noise since it doesn't have the same exhausting recording, mixing and mastering phase that band music has where by the time you get the music released, you're so full of listening to it you never want to hear it again. with noise, i don't really mix the end product separately on a daw or spend too much effort in mastering since most of the mixing is done when you're actually composing or recording that stuff. so i'm not tired of the end product when it's done, on the contrary because my stuff is at least half improvised there's probably stuff, nuances i maybe haven't even noticed.
i also like making backround music for myself, recording a loop or two and just leaving them on while i do other stuff.
I'm currently working on a new release so I've been listening to the same tracks repeatedly. I find that, much like visual art, sometimes you need to walk away from the project for a week or so and come back to it with fresh ears or eyes. I've reworked this one track in particular many times and might not even end up using it - changing approaches to vocals, changing scrap sample material - sometimes you end up hating it. Once it's physically released and out into the world I'll maybe listen to it a handful of times and then put it on the shelf for a while, returning to it months later.
Quote from: HateSermon on January 13, 2020, 01:08:55 AM
I find that, much like visual art, sometimes you need to walk away from the project for a week or so and come back to it with fresh ears or eyes.
Taking regular breaks from recording or working on something is mandatory, it's called quality control. It's even more important during the mixing phase of a recording.
Sometimes I listen to it endlessly both during and after production, until I like it even if it's not really that great. Often I get a relationship to the recording similar to that one has with old demos and records one has listened to when younger, or on special occasions. Other times I let it lie for years and then come back to it. In the latter case, I am often surprised one way or the other, as things I thought was terrible prove to be rather listenable and others I thought was great at the time sound like bullshit.
This effect is definitely stronger with noise than with other kinds of music.
100 % agree with the quality control sentiment... in my opinion, you need to step away from your own creation and try to listen to it as listener would... i started out as record collector before i made my own noise, and over-indulgent "musician types" who only cares about their own enjoyment of playing always irritated me to no end...
I like to listen to my own stuff a few times before putting out. A good critical listen with headphones really tells me whether it's worth putting out. After its released I'll usually go back and give it one more focused listen and revisit it every once in a while. I find it especially helpful to listen to my own stuff before I record so I can revisit old ideas I forgot about or improve on them. also to hear things that I use too much so I can try to move away from them. I enjoy hearing my own stuff, I couldn't imagine making something that I seriously would never want to hear again.
Quote from: doll on January 20, 2020, 07:29:10 PM
I enjoy hearing my own stuff, I couldn't imagine making something that I seriously would never want to hear again.
This particular ideal should really be at the core of all noise production. In fact, it should be at the core of any musical endeavor at all. No one should release shit they really wouldn't care for if someone else had made it even if they had fun making it. In a supposedly "avant garde" genre with few restrictions, this is a restriction to which I think everyone should (try to) submit.
Quote from: Yrjö-Koskinen on January 20, 2020, 08:48:07 PM
Quote from: doll on January 20, 2020, 07:29:10 PM
I enjoy hearing my own stuff, I couldn't imagine making something that I seriously would never want to hear again.
This particular ideal should really be at the core of all noise production. In fact, it should be at the core of any musical endeavor at all. No one should release shit they really wouldn't care for if someone else had made it even if they had fun making it. In a supposedly "avant garde" genre with few restrictions, this is a restriction to which I think everyone should (try to) submit.
I agree. Everyone should strive to make the kind of music that they would want to spend time listening to. I also think that this goal would make composing/recording a much more enjoyable and fulfilling process, and allow for a greater depth of inspiration to come forward.
Quote from: Yrjö-Koskinen on January 20, 2020, 08:48:07 PM
Quote from: doll on January 20, 2020, 07:29:10 PM
I enjoy hearing my own stuff, I couldn't imagine making something that I seriously would never want to hear again.
This particular ideal should really be at the core of all noise production. In fact, it should be at the core of any musical endeavor at all. No one should release shit they really wouldn't care for if someone else had made it even if they had fun making it. In a supposedly "avant garde" genre with few restrictions, this is a restriction to which I think everyone should (try to) submit.
i like creating restrictions for myself, but i don't care much what others do with their noise. If it is good i don't care whether the artist likes it or not, or how they go about their process, I will probably listen to it regardless. Ideally everyone would like what they make but artists tend to be overly self critical so i get why others may not want to listen to their own stuff.
I think that the whole 'taboo' around enjoying one's own art is a product of a really insidious false modesty, as if the idea of enjoying your own noise/music/whatever is somehow arrogant.
The only time I couldn't stand to hear my own music is when I own the fact that I made something shitty and should have worked harder on it, and chalk that failure up to a lesson. If you've successfully hit whatever goal you set out to achieve when making music, then you should have made something you can sit and listen to yourself.
Quote from: NaturalOrthodoxy on January 21, 2020, 03:59:11 PM
I think that the whole 'taboo' around enjoying one's own art is a product of a really insidious false modesty, as if the idea of enjoying your own noise/music/whatever is somehow arrogant.
The only time I couldn't stand to hear my own music is when I own the fact that I made something shitty and should have worked harder on it, and chalk that failure up to a lesson. If you've successfully hit whatever goal you set out to achieve when making music, then you should have made something you can sit and listen to yourself.
Well said.
Quote from: W.K. on April 20, 2020, 11:40:41 PM
Sometimes it's also a matter of putting sounds in the right order. You think a recording sounds lackluster or don't have the right feeling for it, yiu begin to cut some pieces and rearrange some sounds, and it might get somewhere and begins to sound pretty decent.
For real. My process tends to be recording maybe once a month (fooling around with a synth, rattling some metal around, finding crazy noises using cassette/field recording/sample), then coming back to edit them later on using a DAW, usually in sessions of no longer than an hour. Unfortunately my circumstances don't allow for recording loud with amps etc (usually line straight into laptop or via a mixer/a pedal or two) so I'm constantly listening to my raw recordings to work out how to get a good sound out of them with my modest means. It often leads to be being pretty burned out at such a piecemeal process or exasperated that I can't go hard and loud in a rehearsal room as I'd perhaps like to. But eventually, I'll realise the potential for almost everything I record even if it means sitting on it for months until recording something that compliments it by happy mistake. It even feels good to "eat the whole animal" so to speak and find creative ways of not letting any recording go to waste.
I was hoping to comment on this topic sooner but here we are 6 months later...
I can and do listen to my works for pleasure now. The earliest works unsurpisngly come with a substantial cringe factor, but on those earliest works I try to listen for the good ideas that maybe never got proper expression, or just try to enjoy things for what they are. I find that I am surprisingly satisfied with the execution of my material released after 2015.
I also typically listen to my original masters rather than the released versions because sometimes labels or duplicators have made changes to the master prior to duplication, against my wishes, in a way that can radically change the sound.
Because I generally record live and do minimal editing after the fact, I'm spared the tedious and enjoyment sapping process of putting unfinished works together on the computer for very long periods of time. and because my hearing is normally ravaged after recording I typically don't start whatever editing I might do until a few days after recording.
Quote from: Euro Trash Bazooka on January 13, 2020, 11:30:03 AM
Quote from: HateSermon on January 13, 2020, 01:08:55 AM
I find that, much like visual art, sometimes you need to walk away from the project for a week or so and come back to it with fresh ears or eyes.
Taking regular breaks from recording or working on something is mandatory, it's called quality control. It's even more important during the mixing phase of a recording.
^^^ This is my experience. But I also find there are times were I'm just in the zone working on the audio or visual side of a release and wind up doing a lot of good work fairly rapidly. There's no 100% rule.
I can say that there are several tracks and whole releases that I still listen to regularly. I feel like they have no equivalent or similar release out there and they deliver exactly what I want to hear. Whether it's earned satisfaction or narcissistic fantasy, I feel like I'm in a place where I make the music I want to hear better than most. As a result I feel like I have the privilege to be more discerning with what I buy and less easily satisfied by stuff. But maybe that's because I'm getting older and crankier?
Yeah, that's a good balance. A kind of earned appreciation of your own work after years of honing.
I find this an interesting point-
Quote from: ConcreteMascara on April 21, 2020, 08:58:12 PM
I also typically listen to my original masters rather than the released versions because sometimes labels or duplicators have made changes to the master prior to duplication, against my wishes, in a way that can radically change the sound.
My work has only ever been released on tape and I take this into account when mixing. I enjoy the "detrimental" effect that dubbing to tape has on my material and I see that as the final stage of the process even after mastering. When I revisit those works I therefore listen to the tape as it feels like only that is the finished product.
Maybe because most of my noise education is bad rips of long sold-out tapes from the 80s and 90s
Quote from: NaturalOrthodoxy on April 22, 2020, 02:48:01 PM
Quote from: ConcreteMascara on April 21, 2020, 08:58:12 PM
I also typically listen to my original masters rather than the released versions because sometimes labels or duplicators have made changes to the master prior to duplication, against my wishes, in a way that can radically change the sound.
My work has only ever been released on tape and I take this into account when mixing. I enjoy the "detrimental" effect that dubbing to tape has on my material and I see that as the final stage of the process even after mastering. When I revisit those works I therefore listen to the tape as it feels like only that is the finished product.
Maybe because most of my noise education is bad rips of long sold-out tapes from the 80s and 90s
So typically my masters are really loud because of the way I record, master, etc. When I've had pro-duplicated tapes done, the duplication place has done some very minimal adjusting to get the most accurate representation of my master on the tape, sent me a test tape, and when it's okay they duplicate. That's wonderful. When I duplicate my own editions I check every tape to make sure it's recording at the right level and sounds ok after I've recorded. I do it at 1:1 speed so it takes forever but keeps it consistent. I dub some releases louder specifically to get that more blown out or distorted sound, and others quieter. Obviously if you have a bass heavy recording and you record it all the way in the red it'll sound like mud (which isn't my goal at least). The problem is if someone else dubs a recording too loudly and it distorts it beyond what I anticipated, it's can get fucked. Fuck one label didn't even dub all the songs or had them in the wrong order sometimes! I can't even comprehend how that happened. And one of my CDs clearly had the volume levels lowered prior to/at duplication, I assume by someone at the duplication plant. It's a CD so I'm not sure why the fuck they would do that and the volume was adjusted differently per track so it was very surprising and aggravating when I got my copy.
So I hear you and I do take that into account. I try to work with labels I can trust and have faith they'll do with my music what I'd like, but sometimes the label or even the duplication place fucks that up. And as part of my listening habits I have to check post release to see if it went okay. That act of faith, and the occasional breach of it, is the reason I've moved to just releasing as much of my own material as possible.
Quote from: ConcreteMascara on April 21, 2020, 08:58:12 PM
I was hoping to comment on this topic sooner but here we are 6 months later...
Same thing here !
I listen to my own work quite often. And the more I release new material, the less I listen to other projects actually. The main reason I've started to release noise was to make something that would satisfy my own taste. I've succeed.