So I got home from my job and received a nice e-mail from Paypal, saying that my sales account got suspended due to articles being sold that go against their terms of service. Those are obviously pretty vague, so there's no real way of finding out what exactly is regarded as "hateful", "discriminating" or "obscene" (yes, these are the official terms being used in the TOS). The person on the phone couldn't or wasn't willing to help me at all even though I was so ready to gobble up that nice little desert made out of details as to why exactly I am being asked to remove the items in question. This individual also did not see any problem with keeping my business account suspended from sending or receiving any transactions for 3 full days "until they get back to me".
As by no chance a Paypal individual would manually review my items out of thousands of shops, I assume they either run a script by now to look for certain terminologies ("genocide", "mauthausen", "streicher",...) or someone reported the newly added LPs or others after which they started searching for more. I was even asked to remove items which descriptions only contained the "problematic" terminologies (like any releases being compared to M.O., G.O. or magazines which feature any of these projects), which further confirms to me that they are running an algorithm of some sort.
I would advise anyone who runs an online distro to be careful when listing stuff like this and anyone who reported me to Paypal to fuck off and get a life. It is not far fetched in my opinion to assume that bigcartel and other e-commerce providers are going to start scanning transactions next.
May anyone take this as it stands and make up their own mind, but I think this is a pretty serious case of censorship. So serious that I am considering running no business whatsoever via Paypal any longer. I already hated this fucking "service" (mainly for economic reasons since buyers from the EU would rather give them free money for no service at all instead of just using bank transfer) but this is pretty much the nail in the coffin.
Same thing happened to me, on my personal account that has no political/NS/explicit activity. They banned me for life from their service and locked up my credit card too so that I cannot make a new account instead. I asked for a reason behind this as it was a verified account I have been using for like 15 years with no problems nor remarks about anything and they just shut it down without any before hand warning. They said I had violated their terms of use. I asked if they could specify, what exactly. They responded, no they can't. Pretty fair huh? But hey, at least all the HATE and DISCRIMINATION will be ERASED from the world by closing up Paypal accounts, eh???
That is really bad, I've had problems before selling specific items, but they would just block the sales of orders including those items. I did get someone on the line who hinted at which items were problematic, I changed the names, and then it was fine. I've tried to find a way to not transmit line item information of each order in the Paypal receipt, but doesn't seem like that's possible. It looks like this is the way that things are headed, if you look at all of the BM labels with deleted accounts last year. Hopefully your account will be unlocked after the 3 days.
Good(/bad?!) to know you guys had similar experiences. Changing item names was the first thing I did, hidden all problematic covers until now until this ban is over so I can retrieve all my funds and call it a day. Already set up the Stripe service to offer credit card payment - anyone has experience with this one especially buyers paying from overseas?
But I understand the whole deal, paypal is a private company, can ban anything for any reason, especially since they don't care about myself as a business partner cause my revenue is way too small for them, so better not get too used to it and then cry later.
Still wondering though whether I got reported or not, since it will be interesting to see some major industrial distros like Tesco get hit by this and how they handle it. AND it's still crazy to me how Paypal scanned the whole bigcartel page for "problematic" terms and then forced me to remove every single product containing those in order to retreive my account.
I've also finished setting up Stripe (meant to ages ago but this gave me the push) but haven't had any experience. I know a friend who runs a fashion line uses it almost exclusively because the fees are much better, and haven't heard any problems from him about the service. I don't know if Tesco could get hit in the same way, since just checking back through my paypal invoices, the description of the items just says "Tesco Germany". I guess if nothing sets off any alarms, they have no reason to go investigate beyond that.
You might be right. Their "ban" in this case affects items who have not been sold for a while though, only because the description contains certain words.
I also just found out the ban affects my private account as well, fun times!
This sucks big time!! Why do they even care what someone sells, no-one really associates "questionable products" to the service. Isn't it different to like posting tits on Facebook. Well I guess it's probably really just a matter of time until other payment services follow suit as soon as they'll get little bigger. Then everyone will end up sending cash in letter, which is also a dead end as they're likely kill paper money at some point too.
Quote from: CannibalRitual on February 05, 2020, 09:29:26 AM
This sucks big time!! Why do they even care what someone sells, no-one really associates "questionable products" to the service. Isn't it different to like posting tits on Facebook. Well I guess it's probably really just a matter of time until other payment services follow suit as soon as they'll get little bigger. Then everyone will end up sending cash in letter, which is also a dead end as they're likely kill paper money at some point too.
Would think that the jews of Paypal would appreciate any money flowing to them without moral questioning but times are like this, liberal PC shit ad nauseam.
I personally don't think this has anything to do with being jewish but honestly, what's the chain of argument here? Will someone approach paypal and be like "WHAT?! YoU aUtHoRiZeD a TrAnSaCtIoN for a STREICHER rEcOrrrrD? HOW DARE YOU?!"? Like who would hold them accountable for something like this? The whole ridiculousness of it leads me to believe that I got reported by some asspained troll.
If paypal doesn't want to authorize ambiguous offensive shit via their platform then that's fine but in that case I can't use their service any longer since I'm not gonna comply to their standards of censorship. I find selling fucking 'magic' planetary crystals offensive, okay?! Do I get to report that now too?
What's crazy to me is that they didn't just cancel certain transactions, but they blocked both my business and private paypal activity until an individual physically sees all the items from their arbitrary list they sent me removed from my shop site. All of this just shows me that I have become way too dependent on this bullshit company so there's no way I'm gonna run payments through them again.
I had the same issue last year. chances are it wasn't anybody reporting you, they use an automated system and it probably found something that raised a red flag. Paypal customer support for the most part is useless. Getting it fixed is really just a question of getting somebody on the phone who can be bothered to do there job. Took me a half dozen times at least, but as soon as I got somebody competent on the phone, they had somebody review the case and my account was restored.
I seriously doubt too that it would be because someone reported your activity. From what I heard for example the German Black Metal label "W.T.C. Productions" got banned from Paypal because selling Nargaroth's "Black Metal ist krieg" shirt in their shop. How's that for laughs eh?
Quote from: monster ripper on February 05, 2020, 04:09:56 PM
chances are it wasn't anybody reporting you, they use an automated system and it probably found something that raised a red flag.
Quote from: Salute on February 05, 2020, 04:25:36 PM
I seriously doubt too that it would be because someone reported your activity.
Even more reasons for me to refrain from using paypal. It's just too unpredictable. They could potentially deem any future item as "offensive" or "obscene" for any reason and get the whole account banned again - no thank you. And no way I'm gonna censor names or covers. Both Discogs and bigcartel are providing credit card payment systems so I'm good I think.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 05, 2020, 04:41:16 PM
Quote from: monster ripper on February 05, 2020, 04:09:56 PM
chances are it wasn't anybody reporting you, they use an automated system and it probably found something that raised a red flag.
Quote from: Salute on February 05, 2020, 04:25:36 PM
I seriously doubt too that it would be because someone reported your activity.
Even more reasons for me to refrain from using paypal. It's just too unpredictable. They could potentially deem any future item as "offensive" or "obscene" for any reason and get the whole account banned again - no thank you. And no way I'm gonna censor names or covers. Both Discogs and bigcartel are providing credit card payment systems so I'm good I think.
Good for you. Indeed, things are proceeding to a very unstable situation. And what is worst, you could lose your funds in Paypal if they lock it up and you have to make a REQUEST to get them. This is what happened to some labels I heard and we are talking about 4 figure sums...
Yeah all my funds on there are already frozen cause the account is locked till I remove "noise receptor issue" from my shop because G.O. is featured in there...
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 05, 2020, 03:34:46 PM
I find selling fucking 'magic' planetary crystals offensive, okay?! Do I get to report that now too?
not too far from the truth
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/etsy-wont-let-witches-sell-spells-180955631
What do sex workers use?
Quote from: Zeno Marx on February 05, 2020, 07:55:56 PM
What do sex workers use?
Credit Cards, Paypal blocked them already for a Year or more i think.
As for Extreme/ Political Sellers, its already going on since last Year or longer.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 05, 2020, 05:53:15 PM
Yeah all my funds on there are already frozen cause the account is locked till I remove "noise receptor issue" from my shop because G.O. is featured in there...
Well, clearly I am not surprised by this overtly draconian response from PayPal. Yet to clarify the above, G/O themselves have never been featured in
Noise Receptor Journal. Rather there have been a couple of articles I wrote about G/O and were very much focused on ordering my personal interpretation of the group. By PayPal's 'logic' (...if you could call it that...) would be that any publication that featured G/O - even if heavily criticising them - would be verboten.
Yet, I have been increasingly aggrieved by PayPal's exorbitant fees and shitty exchange rates, so I will also look into alternative platforms.
It's comical at this point. Paypal flagged a record that only included "for fans of Mauthausen Orchestra" in the description and was otherwise unaffiliated. Even after censoring to M.O. the first PP review came back and once again asked for complete removal of the item.
Stripe for bigcartel seems to be working fine and Discogs too offers a credit card service so I've already removed any linked Paypal accounts. The only power I have over them is to not do business through them again so that's what I'm gonna do even if they don't care but then again I don't care either.
is it an option to disable the automated paypal-checkout in bigcartel
and instead just get the order transmitted to you and handle it manually?
this way paypal wouldn't get any info on the specific titles in the order,
if not maybe switch to a more proper and autonomous shop-system?
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 05, 2020, 05:53:15 PM
Yeah all my funds on there are already frozen cause the account is locked till I remove "noise receptor issue" from my shop because G.O. is featured in there...
Do you mean they dont even allow to transfer your money to your bank account ?! I can understand almost everything by the logic "Their place, their rules" but blocking you from taking your money and leave, without any official order from authorities, and even more to blackmail you ...
These assholes need a good 'crazy' lawyer with balls, funds and time to go against them. I bet at the end of a long process they would loose. Not that they care, but they would be forced to change policy. Unless somewhere along the lines writes that we accept that our money belong to them.
Quote from: Theodore on February 06, 2020, 02:15:10 AM
Do you mean they dont even allow to transfer your money to your bank account ?!
Correct. And in this case we are talking about a 4 figure sum.
Quote from: WCrap on February 06, 2020, 01:31:37 AM
is it an option to disable the automated paypal-checkout in bigcartel
and instead just get the order transmitted to you and handle it manually?
this way paypal wouldn't get any info on the specific titles in the order,
if not maybe switch to a more proper and autonomous shop-system?
That's not an option as far as I'm aware. To setup bigcartel orders you gotta implement either paypal or stripe as payment method.
Most proper shop systems I have researched before starting the distro were hella expensive. Maybe things have changed. Open for recommendations (please don't say shopify or some shit).
Opencart is free. You need to pay some modules you may need, but the simple shoppingcart system is free. Of course you need to know how to instal it to your domain or have someone do it for you. It is pretty flexible in terms of lay-out and other functions, but certainly different thing compared to all these places designed to be simple and easy and ready-to-go.
Paypal account suspension is old news. Wide variety of underground labels and people have been targets of action and I keep amazed that people do not know that. Or know the rules. Or know what it means if you do not follow those rules, even if they seem petty and random.
Small labels have no chance. Paypal values more their "PR" than modest money they make on small business. Big companies seems to have more flexibility. Those who think it only affects the "bad people" doing "bad things" are soon probably seeing that it's like business that operates soon in sensitivity level related to social media.
I know some bigger labels are now programming new systems where part of the inventory is not available for paypal, and others are. And some stuff is visible for casual visitors, others can be only seen by customers who log in. Just trying to figure out how to not offend every dork that visits their business, and not step on paypal's toes, and also keep the customers who came to buy some interesting and juicy heavy metal. I am pretty sure that eventually it will just lead to social media doxing campaigns. "I logged in and look what I found!" + screen captures of whatever that one feels entitled to be upset about.
It is unfortunate state of underground art, that biggest corporations in the world and handling the platforms of sales, promotion and communication and implementing regulations that seemingly already affect the art itself.
If back in the day someone would have suggested future underground is in leash of multinational corporations to this extent, one would have not believed. I would advocate privately owned forums, personal websites, magazines, distributions. Industrial music for industrial people.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 06, 2020, 09:31:31 AM
I would advocate privately owned forums, personal websites, magazines, distributions. Industrial music for industrial people.
THIS.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 06, 2020, 08:01:25 AM
Most proper shop systems I have researched before starting the distro were hella expensive. Maybe things have changed. Open for recommendations (please don't say shopify or some shit).
relax, i won't recommend "shopify or some shit", as it's an outsourced shopping-system just like bigcartel as far as i know.
i myself use oscommerce which is free but needs some work to make it look ok. it's open source and has quite a large & helpful "community" of users and developers. it's autonomous and runs locally only on your system, but therefore you need to have your own webspace with php.
Quote from: WCrap on February 06, 2020, 12:44:17 PM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 06, 2020, 08:01:25 AM
Most proper shop systems I have researched before starting the distro were hella expensive. Maybe things have changed. Open for recommendations (please don't say shopify or some shit).
relax, i won't recommend "shopify or some shit", as it's an outsourced shopping-system just like bigcartel as far as i know.
i myself use oscommerce which is free but needs some work to make it look ok. it's open source and has quite a large & helpful "community" of users and developers. it's autonomous and runs locally only on your system, but therefore you need to have your own webspace with php.
Cool thanks, I'll check it out. The remark wasn't only directed at you, I'm open for any reasonable recommendations from anyone.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 06, 2020, 09:31:31 AMIt is unfortunate state of underground art, that biggest corporations in the world and handling the platforms of sales, promotion and communication and implementing regulations that seemingly already affect the art itself.
If back in the day someone would have suggested future underground is in leash of multinational corporations to this extent, one would have not believed. I would advocate privately owned forums, personal websites, magazines, distributions. Industrial music for industrial people.
I 100% agree with everything you said in your post. I was too naive to notice paypal was taking measures this seriously and most of all I am embarassed how dependent I have become on their service. Moving everything back under ground is definitely an option at this point, just need some time to sort out a new system for myself - webpage, payment, shop integration...
I appreciate all the constructive replies so far!
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 06, 2020, 07:36:46 AM
Quote from: Theodore on February 06, 2020, 02:15:10 AM
Do you mean they dont even allow to transfer your money to your bank account ?!
Correct. And in this case we are talking about a 4 figure sum.
Yup and also cannot spend the money either. I got a notice that I can make a REQUEST for the funds after 180 days so not getting them automatically which I would think with common sense is some sort of illegal action to withdraw my money but then again in their user agreements or at least updated ones have some small print shit for this. Anyhow, luckily I had no funds on the account at the time so no loss for me except that it makes it really difficult to order stuff overseas. Then again many places have the option to pay via credit card without Paypal interference.
Also agreeing on what Freakanimal wrote, keep the circles alive in smaller, private grounds and more in the underground. We will survive, censorship of art cannot be tolerated. There is always a way to go round stupid regulations and restrictions of the multinational jewish corporations.
While 180 days seems absurdly excessive, it doesn't surprise me that they freeze monies. Paypal's revenue is based on accruing interest by way of other peoples money. Everything they do can be instantaneous, but making people wait a few days to transfer money that is rightfully theirs right now is about accruing interest. And hey, you're just some immoral asshole, so there's no real support of your business. Not only are they going to cut you off from their service, but they're also ballsy enough to use your money for their gain, which clearly indicates they're also immoral.
Honestly, I'm surprised 60 Minutes hasn't done a piece on PayPal. If not out-right illegal, they do a lot of shady shit. It would be quicker to change if they were publicly exposed rather than the unlikely chance some law office tried to battle them in court for years and years.
Two thoughts relevant to the issue:
Welcome to the monopoly economy. The defining factor is a narrow selection of services that all effectively serve a narrow slice of the same product without any defining difference. It is the "illusion of choice."
And second, this point highlights a bit of my pet-peeve. If you lose the convenience of *instantly* buying something, then artists and labels would have to make more adequate numbers of releases. I am old enough to remember buying international mail orders and posting letters for releases which might arrive two months later. Yet they always did. These days, I have instant payment options and can't find many releases 24hrs after they are posted (sold out).
Lastly, I have always been envious of the IBAN transfer system in Europe. Here, in the USA, transfers are charged exorbitant fees (i.e. minimum $15 each regardless of amount). Why more people don't utilize this in Europe is foreign to me. PayPal--as an American company--makes some sense when you weigh the options. While it is, I agree, immoral to hold moneys that can be transferred instantly for up to a week, it is still better than paying the fees associated with instant transfers.
Personally, I would be very happy to send Postal Money orders as I did in the 20th century, but I expect no one would have any stock to fulfill my orders because they all want to be superficially "underground."
Quote from: MyrtleLake on February 07, 2020, 12:16:14 AM
If you lose the convenience of *instantly* buying something, then artists and labels would have to make more adequate numbers of releases. I am old enough to remember buying international mail orders and posting letters for releases which might arrive two months later. Yet they always did. These days, I have instant payment options and can't find many releases 24hrs after they are posted (sold out).
Not sure if I understand you correctly so let me know if I am missing your point, but as I see it the demand is pretty much unrelated to payment method (I guess only thing you can argue is an amount of people being too lazy to buy a release that's exclusively sold through snail mail, so that could slightly decrease the demand based on less instant payment methods).
The point that more labels/artists should be aware of adequate amount of copies stands on its own. If a release is completely sold out and gets a discogs ratio hugely in favor of wants, there's really no reason to not repress it - it's free money.
Quote from: MyrtleLake on February 07, 2020, 12:16:14 AMWhy more people don't utilize this in Europe is foreign to me.
Same. The only reason I can imagine is pure stupidity and sheep mentality.
So let me get this straight, they banned your account for Genocide Organ related items????
Dont know for other EU countries but banks in Greece still have a fee for transfers even in EU, at least last time i checked -not long ago- they had. Which makes Paypal better option for most cases !
About their policies ? Dont get me started ! Example : They were telling people to use e-banking, they still promote it, it is free to create an account through internet. Many use it. Then a month ago people noticed that bank had taken 5EUR from their accounts for e-banking account fee ! Without any warning or giving people the option to decide if they still wanted to have an account that they had to pay for from now on. People, news, even gov got angry with them. Then banks said it was a 'system' 's mistake, blame the software haha. Yes, software has an excuse for its error !! 'E-banking account fee' ! They canceled this plan and returned the money back. - But that's the way they operate. They even charge you if you change your card PIN !
Quote from: Hatefukk on February 07, 2020, 02:48:26 AM
So let me get this straight, they banned your account for Genocide Organ related items????
They banned my account for selling a Streicher record and now are forcing me to remove all items related to Streicher, G.O. and Mauthausen Orchestra.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 07, 2020, 01:02:25 AM
Quote from: MyrtleLake on February 07, 2020, 12:16:14 AMWhy more people don't utilize this in Europe is foreign to me.
Same. The only reason I can imagine is pure stupidity and sheep mentality.
Indeed. For some reason people inside Europe, especially Germans, want to use Paypal instead of bank transfer which is weird. I always use and prefer bank transfer within Europe but some seem to be even reluctant towards it, meaning when buying goods. At least in Finland it's free.
Quote from: Salute on February 07, 2020, 01:53:28 PM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 07, 2020, 01:02:25 AM
Quote from: MyrtleLake on February 07, 2020, 12:16:14 AMWhy more people don't utilize this in Europe is foreign to me.
Same. The only reason I can imagine is pure stupidity and sheep mentality.
Indeed. For some reason people inside Europe, especially Germans, want to use Paypal instead of bank transfer which is weird. I always use and prefer bank transfer within Europe but some seem to be even reluctant towards it, meaning when buying goods. At least in Finland it's free.
Noted. From my experience, Germans are definitely up there but Danish, Swedes & French are the absolute top paypal cucks.
Account is unbanned by the way. Now waiting till my funds actually reach my bank account and after this all the items will be unhidden from the shop & Streicher available for direct purchase again.
PayPal is often used because of their buyer protection. It's rather difficult to undo a bank transfer when you're getting ripped off or whatever. The other way around for sellers PayPal would be more difficult when sending without tracking and therefore can't proof when the buyer said he didn't get it etc.
Quote from: CannibalRitual on February 07, 2020, 05:34:33 PM
PayPal is often used because of their buyer protection. It's rather difficult to undo a bank transfer when you're getting ripped off or whatever. The other way around for sellers PayPal would be more difficult when sending without tracking and therefore can't proof when the buyer said he didn't get it etc.
Agreed! Safety is definitely the key word and it makes sense. More than the speed.
As for freedom of speech and art on PayPal, it does not exist. They draconically ban anyone who breaks the rules and they are pretty loose. Sometimes the "wrong" people get banned, even if the stuff they sell is just standard BM, for example. I would definitely recommend all PP sellers to find ways of not listing artists in payments or too openly in shops or look for an alternative. The days of Underground being "under the radar" seem to be over, same seems to apply to Industrial getting away with "bad" imagery and content because of provocation .
Paypal purchased an AI company 3 months before this started happening to a bunch of black metal distros (part of that however was a campaign reporting people) and many of the common shopping carts that are incorporated with paypal just simply ban stuff based on keywords. If your invoicing system relays the actual product names through paypal you are done.
They mail you a check after 180 days and it is a lifetime ban based off either your credit card or your social security number.
Paypal is no longer appropriate for this these types of music, sooner customers understand that the better.
The initial problematic transaction according to paypal was one order of 1x Streicher "Hammerskins"
If that triggered the ban it seems rather random to me since there were orders both shortly before (of Streicher "Hammerskins" & "Annihilism") and long time before said transaction (of plenty items they flagged in hindsight; G.O. & M.O. LPs, Streicher CDs).
The transaction itself was not cancelled for some reason so in this particular case there was no repercussion for the buyer. But as you mentioned, not yet...
From trading WW2 memorabilia I know that at least in Germany advertising (or in other words putting up for sale) certain items with illegal symbols or wording is forbidden and marketplaces will ban sellers who do not censor appropriately. The buyer is out of the equation in this case. Perhaps paypal is following a similar route - target the seller, so the buyer doesn't even have the option of purchasing.
Quote from: theotherjohn on February 08, 2020, 08:39:09 PM
In relation to WWII memorabilia and other contraband goods, eBay has blocked keywords/listings for years and given that PayPal is practically one and the same, it's not a complete mystery that PayPal are taking similar protocols elsewhere where eBay is out of the picture.
Not correct. Ebay and Paypal split up and divided into separate companies long time ago. In the meantime Paypal is even getting removed from ebay as "preferred" payment option and replaced with another service.
Speaking on topic, in my shop there's two items which include the word "holocaust". Even if not really related maybe should just abbreviate the titles, don't really want to get my PayPal account banned for some stupid AI chickenshit.
Quote from: theotherjohn on February 10, 2020, 06:49:48 PMHas anyone here legitimately tried or encouraged the use of cryptocurrency as a form of payment, outside of novelty/recreational reasons? Not being a techie, it's still like the wild west to me. I first recall seeing Bitcoin mentioned on a shared news article on this forum around 2011/12, back when they were still a few dollars each - man, hindsight is a bitch. Seems like it would be more aesthetically suited to digital music/data rather than tangible goods though. Probably deserves a new topic?
Maybe there's a thread for this, otherwise might be a good idea for a new topic. Man I wish I knew how this shit works. I was going to set it up at one point and some instructions were like to get a second laptop to run a small security server for the key or something and I quickly lost interest cause it seemed like a hassle. Don't really care about the aesthetics thing, especially since the only form of payment that would match physical format is cash letter and I think I've only had around three buyers ever pay like that since I started the distro.
Bitcoin is perfect for most noise labels in that nobody will ever use it to buy anything :D
Don't think there's any 'good' alternative yet, just billions of altcoins all heavily tied in value to bitcoin and even more sketchy and risky a gamble than Bitcoin
Sending out a few dollar bills wrapped in tin foil without big brother watching. We might need to return to this.
Only if amount of lost and delayed mail would not be so huge, haha....
I think in Europe, no problem due easiness of bank transfers.
In the end, situation may only call for better organized distribution network, where stuff could be found from your domestic distributor.
Not sure how PayPal algorithm works, but wouldn't it be possible to just list the items in some way that doesn't allude to anything controversial, for example just calling Genocide Organ (GO)
and then providing detail in the descriptions (assuming PayPal never sees that)...
I can recommend www.transferwise.com. I have used this platform in the past and it is very easy and non-disruptive. Fees are not large and if I recall correclty carried by clients. All users must create an account with the company to utilize the services. Well worth a check out.
Quote from: Johann on February 14, 2020, 09:03:50 AMNot sure how PayPal algorithm works, but wouldn't it be possible to just list the items in some way that doesn't allude to anything controversial, for example just calling Genocide Organ (GO)
It is possible to shorten, but it is censorship, which is why I'm opposed to it. However whether it is possible to "not allude to anything controversial" cannot be known, since paypal exclusively determines what's deemed "controversial".
Quote from: Johann on February 14, 2020, 09:03:50 AMand then providing detail in the descriptions (assuming PayPal never sees that)...
The description would most likely not be flagged, however after the item title was flagged through the transaction, paypal (manually) put in these terms into bigcartel search and flagged anything that came up incl. items which had terms in description only.
Quote from: online prowler on February 14, 2020, 12:24:49 PMwww.transferwise.com
looks like a good PP alternative for handling payment for large amounts of overseas distro items. For single orders I haven't had problems with Stripe up to this point.
I don't feel like it was too long ago that I saw Skrewdriver for sale on discogs. This banning of the sale of questionable items seems to be happening rather quickly to me.
Discogs, Spotify, Ebay, Paypal, I've noticed a lot more bans recently, in some cases only for having track titles with the word "Genocide" in them, or some other apparent guilt by association.
In the USA, there is a lot of anti-nazi sentiment, for sure, as the Atomwaffen continue to gain attention (It's not for me to say if they are gaining momentum or not, these kids are usually under 25).
I wonder if there is anything more specific than simple anti-racist sentiment here. Last time I checked, and whenever I have ever checked, the numbers for racist skinheads and so-called "neo-nazis" was less than 6000 countrywide. It's not that I believe that they have an adequate census system for such things, but it's still a lot to get into a huff over. Trump has simply made people feel comfortable in being more vocal about their little maligned ideas, and maybe that has something to do with the backlash. I do wonder how they are applying their policies to adult items and such. If I were in this situation, I'd probably look to those channels and sell my tapes as "fetish items".
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on February 27, 2020, 03:36:14 PMLast time I checked, and whenever I have ever checked, the numbers for racist skinheads and so-called "neo-nazis" was less than 6000 countrywide.
Where - in Liechtenstein?
Just a heads up: my paypal account has just been banned again for having a MO record for sale on Discogs (https://www.discogs.com/sell/item/1060195780)
* I received an email asking me to remove that record, the previously flagged items which I have since re-listed, and any paypal checkout buttons associated with these non-TOS products from my shop
* The email looks hand-written (titles / flagged words are uncapitalized, poorly worded)
* As you can see the record in question is not banned from discogs
* I have removed paypal as payment option from Discogs and bigcartel weeks ago and honestly thought I had already closed that account
* Thus there hasn't been an order over any of the flagged items since the last ban
Make of that what you will but it leads me to believe someone at paypal keeps monitoring my discogs account and shop site, sending me emails threatening to ban a paypal account that isn't even being used anymore.
Hmm... Are you 100% the email is legit - from paypal - not from anyone posing as the platform? Very odd and uninformed to say the least that letter.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 05, 2020, 03:34:46 PM
I personally don't think this has anything to do with being jewish but honestly, what's the chain of argument here? Will someone approach paypal and be like "WHAT?! YoU aUtHoRiZeD a TrAnSaCtIoN for a STREICHER rEcOrrrrD? HOW DARE YOU?!"? Like who would hold them accountable for something like this? The whole ridiculousness of it leads me to believe that I got reported by some asspained troll.
yes it works like this. Same goes with sex related stuff. This is why most sex workers and porn providers are no longer accepting paypal but moved to alternative methods.
Quote from: online prowler on March 10, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
Hmm... Are you 100% the email is legit - from paypal - not from anyone posing as the platform? Very odd and uninformed to say the least that letter.
Yes it came from service@paypal.de and the ban also showed after I logged back into my account. The notification is still odd as fuck though.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on February 27, 2020, 03:36:14 PM
I don't feel like it was too long ago that I saw Skrewdriver for sale on discogs. This banning of the sale of questionable items seems to be happening rather quickly to me.
Discogs, Spotify, Ebay, Paypal, I've noticed a lot more bans recently, in some cases only for having track titles with the word "Genocide" in them, or some other apparent guilt by association.
In the USA, there is a lot of anti-nazi sentiment, for sure, as the Atomwaffen continue to gain attention (It's not for me to say if they are gaining momentum or not, these kids are usually under 25).
I wonder if there is anything more specific than simple anti-racist sentiment here. Last time I checked, and whenever I have ever checked, the numbers for racist skinheads and so-called "neo-nazis" was less than 6000 countrywide. It's not that I believe that they have an adequate census system for such things, but it's still a lot to get into a huff over. Trump has simply made people feel comfortable in being more vocal about their little maligned ideas, and maybe that has something to do with the backlash. I do wonder how they are applying their policies to adult items and such. If I were in this situation, I'd probably look to those channels and sell my tapes as "fetish items".
Obviously this is a matter of controlling discourse in general. With or without the FBI goading edgy shitposters to plan bombings, the dangers of white nationalism are even more overstated than the dangers of Islamist terrorism in the US. Much like 9/11 was used to implement previously unthinkable intrusions into privacy and what you guys call civil rights, the Nazi scare is used to sell and legitimize an increase in corporate power over public debate and culture. Possibly it will also be used to motivate more direct government intervention (i.e. literal censorship). Once the 1st amendment becomes a relative and limited right, you can just go through with European style hate speech laws. Given the structure of the United States political system, it will then once again be possible to dictate what legitimate discourse is from board rooms.
I'm not saying that anyone will implement Chinese style censorship in the US. Some European states are edging towards just that, but it's still not even close. Even so, having major public platforms routinely banning ideas you don't want to spread, and the additional opportunity to prosecute your political enemies, is an excellent way to tip the scales if corporate media consensus isn't enough. This should be particularly obvious to the Left: if the state and tech capital is fine with banning CDrs printed in 50 copies and persecuting politically irrelevant dudes in SS uniforms, what the fuck do you think they will do when you bring out your important, efficient, socially transformative platform to reshape society and expropriate the oppressors?
Basically you've got the Nazi boogeyman to scare the ostensibly sensitive social revolutionaries that make up the Left and much of the "soft" professional class (not least the ACLU, who've come a long way from defending Ginsberg's pedo org), the Islamist terrorist boogeyman for border line retarded, mreeeerrica boomer yokels, and Russia/Vladimir Putin/the Russian bots for both of these camps. If you play things right you can implement just about any limitation on just about anybody once you've got the structures in place. For what it's worth, I think all of this will remain privatized for the time being. There are many negative things to say about Trump, but he won't touch the first amendment, and if Biden is elected and actually survives four years I doubt he'll do much about separating hate speech from free speech either. Unfortunately, with the ever dwindling power of established media, the people who call the shots (all of them, in case you're wondering of whom I speak) are going to have to come up with something to prevent the ole' CHANGE (understood as any redistribution of power, rather than any particular radical vision) from actually happening. Even though Islamists or Nazis obviously won't take over the US regardless of what happens, there may be other threats that need to be stopped in their tracks, and people with power and privilege will want tools to do so.
If this wasn't the case, you'd see none of this bullshit happening. The developments we've seen over the past twenty years in surveillance and private/public censorship are obviously detrimental to the credibility of Western corporations and governments alike, and they have done literally nothing to reduce "hate" or "fundamentalism" at all. If I can see that, so can the fuckers who create Terms of Service
or define public policy.
Quote from: Yrjö-Koskinen on March 12, 2020, 10:42:12 PM
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on February 27, 2020, 03:36:14 PM
I don't feel like it was too long ago that I saw Skrewdriver for sale on discogs. This banning of the sale of questionable items seems to be happening rather quickly to me.
Discogs, Spotify, Ebay, Paypal, I've noticed a lot more bans recently, in some cases only for having track titles with the word "Genocide" in them, or some other apparent guilt by association.
In the USA, there is a lot of anti-nazi sentiment, for sure, as the Atomwaffen continue to gain attention (It's not for me to say if they are gaining momentum or not, these kids are usually under 25).
I wonder if there is anything more specific than simple anti-racist sentiment here. Last time I checked, and whenever I have ever checked, the numbers for racist skinheads and so-called "neo-nazis" was less than 6000 countrywide. It's not that I believe that they have an adequate census system for such things, but it's still a lot to get into a huff over. Trump has simply made people feel comfortable in being more vocal about their little maligned ideas, and maybe that has something to do with the backlash. I do wonder how they are applying their policies to adult items and such. If I were in this situation, I'd probably look to those channels and sell my tapes as "fetish items".
Obviously this is a matter of controlling discourse in general. With or without the FBI goading edgy shitposters to plan bombings, the dangers of white nationalism are even more overstated than the dangers of Islamist terrorism in the US. Much like 9/11 was used to implement previously unthinkable intrusions into privacy and what you guys call civil rights, the Nazi scare is used to sell and legitimize an increase in corporate power over public debate and culture. Possibly it will also be used to motivate more direct government intervention (i.e. literal censorship). Once the 1st amendment becomes a relative and limited right, you can just go through with European style hate speech laws. Given the structure of the United States political system, it will then once again be possible to dictate what legitimate discourse is from board rooms.
I'm not saying that anyone will implement Chinese style censorship in the US. Some European states are edging towards just that, but it's still not even close. Even so, having major public platforms routinely banning ideas you don't want to spread, and the additional opportunity to prosecute your political enemies, is an excellent way to tip the scales if corporate media consensus isn't enough. This should be particularly obvious to the Left: if the state and tech capital is fine with banning CDrs printed in 50 copies and persecuting politically irrelevant dudes in SS uniforms, what the fuck do you think they will do when you bring out your important, efficient, socially transformative platform to reshape society and expropriate the oppressors?
Basically you've got the Nazi boogeyman to scare the ostensibly sensitive social revolutionaries that make up the Left and much of the "soft" professional class (not least the ACLU, who've come a long way from defending Ginsberg's pedo org), the Islamist terrorist boogeyman for border line retarded, mreeeerrica boomer yokels, and Russia/Vladimir Putin/the Russian bots for both of these camps. If you play things right you can implement just about any limitation on just about anybody once you've got the structures in place. For what it's worth, I think all of this will remain privatized for the time being. There are many negative things to say about Trump, but he won't touch the first amendment, and if Biden is elected and actually survives four years I doubt he'll do much about separating hate speech from free speech either. Unfortunately, with the ever dwindling power of established media, the people who call the shots (all of them, in case you're wondering of whom I speak) are going to have to come up with something to prevent the ole' CHANGE (understood as any redistribution of power, rather than any particular radical vision) from actually happening. Even though Islamists or Nazis obviously won't take over the US regardless of what happens, there may be other threats that need to be stopped in their tracks, and people with power and privilege will want tools to do so.
If this wasn't the case, you'd see none of this bullshit happening. The developments we've seen over the past twenty years in surveillance and private/public censorship are obviously detrimental to the credibility of Western corporations and governments alike, and they have done literally nothing to reduce "hate" or "fundamentalism" at all. If I can see that, so can the fuckers who create Terms of Service or define public policy.
What would corporate actors benefit from such ultra P.C. stand which you are suggesting? Having provided councel to multiple EU and international corperations I just don't see it. In my experience this is not something private corperations really care about. Your example of the actions taken by the US, following the 9/11, (which also include unprecendented violations of the laws of armed conflict such as pre-emptive self defense) are state interest matter.
And about the EU hate speech policy, the EU has actually been quite biased in favor of its own citizens, being much more lenient towards mockery of islam than christianity for example.
Quote from: Thor on March 14, 2020, 12:28:14 AM
Quote from: Yrjö-Koskinen on March 12, 2020, 10:42:12 PM
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on February 27, 2020, 03:36:14 PM
I don't feel like it was too long ago that I saw Skrewdriver for sale on discogs. This banning of the sale of questionable items seems to be happening rather quickly to me.
Discogs, Spotify, Ebay, Paypal, I've noticed a lot more bans recently, in some cases only for having track titles with the word "Genocide" in them, or some other apparent guilt by association.
In the USA, there is a lot of anti-nazi sentiment, for sure, as the Atomwaffen continue to gain attention (It's not for me to say if they are gaining momentum or not, these kids are usually under 25).
I wonder if there is anything more specific than simple anti-racist sentiment here. Last time I checked, and whenever I have ever checked, the numbers for racist skinheads and so-called "neo-nazis" was less than 6000 countrywide. It's not that I believe that they have an adequate census system for such things, but it's still a lot to get into a huff over. Trump has simply made people feel comfortable in being more vocal about their little maligned ideas, and maybe that has something to do with the backlash. I do wonder how they are applying their policies to adult items and such. If I were in this situation, I'd probably look to those channels and sell my tapes as "fetish items".
Obviously this is a matter of controlling discourse in general. With or without the FBI goading edgy shitposters to plan bombings, the dangers of white nationalism are even more overstated than the dangers of Islamist terrorism in the US. Much like 9/11 was used to implement previously unthinkable intrusions into privacy and what you guys call civil rights, the Nazi scare is used to sell and legitimize an increase in corporate power over public debate and culture. Possibly it will also be used to motivate more direct government intervention (i.e. literal censorship). Once the 1st amendment becomes a relative and limited right, you can just go through with European style hate speech laws. Given the structure of the United States political system, it will then once again be possible to dictate what legitimate discourse is from board rooms.
I'm not saying that anyone will implement Chinese style censorship in the US. Some European states are edging towards just that, but it's still not even close. Even so, having major public platforms routinely banning ideas you don't want to spread, and the additional opportunity to prosecute your political enemies, is an excellent way to tip the scales if corporate media consensus isn't enough. This should be particularly obvious to the Left: if the state and tech capital is fine with banning CDrs printed in 50 copies and persecuting politically irrelevant dudes in SS uniforms, what the fuck do you think they will do when you bring out your important, efficient, socially transformative platform to reshape society and expropriate the oppressors?
Basically you've got the Nazi boogeyman to scare the ostensibly sensitive social revolutionaries that make up the Left and much of the "soft" professional class (not least the ACLU, who've come a long way from defending Ginsberg's pedo org), the Islamist terrorist boogeyman for border line retarded, mreeeerrica boomer yokels, and Russia/Vladimir Putin/the Russian bots for both of these camps. If you play things right you can implement just about any limitation on just about anybody once you've got the structures in place. For what it's worth, I think all of this will remain privatized for the time being. There are many negative things to say about Trump, but he won't touch the first amendment, and if Biden is elected and actually survives four years I doubt he'll do much about separating hate speech from free speech either. Unfortunately, with the ever dwindling power of established media, the people who call the shots (all of them, in case you're wondering of whom I speak) are going to have to come up with something to prevent the ole' CHANGE (understood as any redistribution of power, rather than any particular radical vision) from actually happening. Even though Islamists or Nazis obviously won't take over the US regardless of what happens, there may be other threats that need to be stopped in their tracks, and people with power and privilege will want tools to do so.
If this wasn't the case, you'd see none of this bullshit happening. The developments we've seen over the past twenty years in surveillance and private/public censorship are obviously detrimental to the credibility of Western corporations and governments alike, and they have done literally nothing to reduce "hate" or "fundamentalism" at all. If I can see that, so can the fuckers who create Terms of Service or define public policy.
What would corporate actors benefit from such ultra P.C. stand which you are suggesting?
The first thing that comes to mind for me would be that political correctness might help open up new markets. If a company can make themselves appear to be supportive of the values that are in vogue and "correct," then many might be more likely to support them than if they simply remained neutral. Plus, it makes their products seem trendy.
I suppose many do interact with so called normal people. I have had discussions where even mentioning term "normal people" causes outrage. Which is odd - but also... normal? When you do interact with the normal people, that constitutes pretty big portion of population (therefore making it norm), you might be able to realize that most are not in favor of violent political extremism, bizarre grotesque sex, etc. They can be sickened or worried by mere thought of existence of such material. They may be repulsed by mere knowledge of such thing existing in the world.
When labels are trusting platforms that are mostly designed for the normal population, they are subjected to control measures to keep normal people happy to use them. If the moderators and decision makers are themselves relative normal folks, it's not like album cover with beheaded kids and mutilated whores would seems "acceptable", no matter how much one would claim it is... art? haha... Or that moderators would be able to take neutral political stand, without having their own views make bias.
About companies/governments not doing anything to reduce "hate" or "fundamentalism" at all, I would suspect that it is barely the role of companies in first place. Rather to appeal and to make the biggest groups of people happy and not-disturbed. It just probably extends to level that company does not want to be associated with such stuff. When people barely care of details or facts, I'm sure companies like paypal / facebook / etc just doesn't want headlines of "facebook supports largest neo-nazi organization", just because they did not delete advert of rally quick enough and it effects the feeling what people have towards such service.
I am strongly confident there is not any sort of evil cabal, plotting against underground culture. Or even cabal plotting for the new world order. Developments happen vastly unplanned, unconscious, without real purpose or meaning. You can easily see where certain cultural climate leads and progresses and what kind of things are being promoted and aided, but is the end result the actual intention or result of conscious aim... I doubt. What was designed to keep people not seeing and being disturbed by grotesque porno and ultraviolence may appear "censoring underground art", while it is just consequence.
I am sure there are reasons why something like vile noise or power electronics is best to keep in print media and physical releases. I don't think it does the genre any favors when there is flood of material that appears to have role similar as shitposting.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 14, 2020, 10:03:29 AMI'm sure companies like paypal / facebook / etc just doesn't want headlines of "facebook supports largest neo-nazi organization", just because they did not delete advert of rally quick enough and it effects the feeling what people have towards such service.
I agree with the capitalism consequence arguments made in the previous posts. Said headlines would lose those companies quite a lot of public image and thus money. They don't care about providing a safe space for minorities to reduce offense, but they care about money and keeping customers.
The free speech debate is kind of boring at this point. It almost seems like people who advocate for free speech are under the impression that one should be able to say whatever without facing the consequences. But that's not how this is realistically going to work in society. Speech is a form of action too and will affect the recipient in one way or another. Should that speech now result in offense or negative emotion, people will over time seek to reduce that cause of harm. This is of course only possible through power (numbers, radicalism) which eventually leads to putting hate speech laws in place. So this dynamic seems to be based on a certain amount of people that are actually harmed by certain speech and not the government actively seeking to reduce its people's liberties (as this is the opposite what the government is in place for).
When it comes to private companies however like paypal, twitter & co. - as much as those want to virtue signal - the only goal is to protect the shareholders.
Quote from: monster ripper on February 05, 2020, 04:09:56 PMI had the same issue last year. chances are it wasn't anybody reporting you, they use an automated system and it probably found something that raised a red flag. Paypal customer support for the most part is useless. Getting it fixed is really just a question of getting somebody on the phone who can be bothered to do there job. Took me a half dozen times at least, but as soon as I got somebody competent on the phone, they had somebody review the case and my account was restored.
Sounds like anytime you get someone on the phone these days. I don't care for what either. Nobody wants to "talk" let alone do their jobs. Only getting worse unfortunately.
Holy shit. this is dystopian as fuck. I can't believe I hadn't heard about this before. Just insane.
Not related to "offensive content", but there are some new regulations coming all the time. Last year they made way more strict the "unusual activity" kind of policies. Meaning that if you happen to get unusually lot of money one month, they may freeze the account just for that, and hold money for month or so until you prove what money is for and that goods are shipped. I was wondering what would label do, if they have set successful pre-order, but all this money is frozen on paypal account until they can prove each order to be shipped? hah..
Paypal will report your income to tax authorities as well, so anyone doing little hobby on the side, may get call or letter urging to explain what is all these payments they are getting. EU is becoming more and more bureaucratic in everything. If it used to be annoying, it is getting even more annoying year after year.
Of course non-EU countries can do it nicely too. UK has been showing curious development when its not just payments being monitored or services monitoring "offensive" items, but police showing up to customers door to ask about things after customs opened letter with "dubious music release".
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on January 31, 2024, 09:40:33 AMUK has been showing curious development when its not just payments being monitored or services monitoring "offensive" items, but police showing up to customers door to ask about things after customs opened letter with "dubious music release".
What the fuck?!
Couple very recent cases, so hard to say is this a "campaign" or if it is policy of the future. Of course if you are not doing anything illegal, there should be no problems having little chat with police. Many UK customers tend to receive their parcels opened, and there is info flyer explaining it is random checks.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on January 31, 2024, 09:40:33 AMNot related to "offensive content", but there are some new regulations coming all the time. Last year they made way more strict the "unusual activity" kind of policies. Meaning that if you happen to get unusually lot of money one month, they may freeze the account just for that, and hold money for month or so until you prove what money is for and that goods are shipped. I was wondering what would label do, if they have set successful pre-order, but all this money is frozen on paypal account until they can prove each order to be shipped? hah..
Paypal will report your income to tax authorities as well, so anyone doing little hobby on the side, may get call or letter urging to explain what is all these payments they are getting. EU is becoming more and more bureaucratic in everything. If it used to be annoying, it is getting even more annoying year after year.
Of course non-EU countries can do it nicely too. UK has been showing curious development when its not just payments being monitored or services monitoring "offensive" items, but police showing up to customers door to ask about things after customs opened letter with "dubious music release".
I've had that happen and it's very annoying as then you've got to go through the process of submitting all information that the package was sent along with tracking info and then you've got to wait until the package has been actually received and then you can ask for you monies. Seeing this kind of early on bullshit with PayPal kind of reveals what the future will be like once all currency is made digital. Bureaucratic nightmare for sure, plus will welcome further more censorship to go along with that to.
The shitstorm that erupts when you receive a package of human bones is even more O.T.T.