I'm not sure this is the correct section for this thread, but it has to do with production techniques, so ...
I'd like to know who works doing little or zero post production.
I mean no editing (maybe just spaces to separate the tracks), no plug ins, etc ...
practically live.
I m not talking about HNW ,because seems obvious there isn't so much post production skills behind it.
Doesn't sound like much fun to me.
I've done that. Got results I was happy with, too. It can work out well, sometimes. But I usually do individual pieces one bit at a time.
"live" recordings are cool if you can pull them off
but i find even a really good live take usually sounds better with some mixing and post-production
and of course a bad live recording will sound MUCH better if you can edit out the flubs and boring bits afterwards -- in which case it's a question of where do you want to spend your time, perfecting the performance or perfecting the sound after the fact
I prefer recording live when I can.
Sometimes because of my kit limitations I end up needing to do overdubs and layering so I will multitrack in Audacity after, fade tracks in/out and crop out fluff.... But a straight from live in one take track is the holy grail for me.
Sometimes this is a good way to work. Depends entirely on personal preferences of course, but i do some of my solo records with one line into tape or computer. Just one file in the end, not much to edit. If you normally work with hardware, synths, pedals etc its a good way to learn your way around new equipment and focus. Also the best way to be prepared for concerts.
The OP mentioned HNW as not requiring much post-production, but what of noise itself? Might it be that the more a noise piece has post-production, edits etc, (which edit out 'the flubs and boring bits ') the less it becomes noise and the more it becomes composed music.
In answer to the OP, I've therefore stopped any post production. It might (IMO) be like painting out the drips in an abstract expressionist painting.
Quote from: JLIAT on April 25, 2020, 10:33:39 AMIt might (IMO) be like painting out the drips in an abstract expressionist painting.
Quote from: Stan BrakhageThey were, like, commenting, and they used the words "chance operations" — which was no bother to me because I was hearing it regularly from John Cage — and the power and the wonder of it and so forth. This really angered Pollock very deeply and he said, "Don't give me any of your 'chance operations.'" He said, "You see that doorknob?" and there was a doorknob about fifty feet from where he was sitting that was, in fact, the door that everyone was going to have to exit. Drunk as he was, he just with one swirl of his brush picked up a glob of paint, hurled it, and hit that doorknob smack-on with very little paint over the edges. And then he said, "And that's the way out."
Quote from: Cementimental on April 26, 2020, 12:01:50 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on April 25, 2020, 10:33:39 AMIt might (IMO) be like painting out the drips in an abstract expressionist painting.
Quote from: Stan Brakhage"with very little paint over the edges."
Rauschenberg's identical paintings, or erased DE Kooning drawing!!!
https://2j29m13d0esqmrduc3h1lx97-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/handprint1_Pollock.jpg
Edit: Not so serious, "glob of paint" Pollock used house gloss paint!? More serious, Cage's use of indeterminacy was a deliberate compositional tool, action painting was more akin to free improvisation. The two as I see it seem very much opposed, the use of indeterminacy constraining the 'performer's' actions, the spontaneous actions of action painting or free improvisation not.
Quote from: Foss on April 25, 2020, 04:15:17 AM
Sometimes this is a good way to work. Depends entirely on personal preferences of course, but i do some of my solo records with one line into tape or computer. Just one file in the end, not much to edit. If you normally work with hardware, synths, pedals etc its a good way to learn your way around new equipment and focus. Also the best way to be prepared for concerts.
i agree, and i think it is crucial to get to a point where you're not just 'jamming' but you're comfortable with turning on your gear and letting it rip. obviously this takes a lot of "jamming"/playing around, but often i set out with the intention of multi tracking and become very satisfied w the live take (or realize any addition will just clutter) and leave it at that. and yeah if it sounds good, no actual mixing needed. if its a tape, i don't see the need for any mastering either (not saying all tapes shouldn't be mastered, just that it can still be ok without it). its not planned but it often happens.
Quote from: Cementimental on April 26, 2020, 12:01:50 AM
Quote from: Stan BrakhageThey were, like, commenting, and they used the words "chance operations" — which was no bother to me because I was hearing it regularly from John Cage — and the power and the wonder of it and so forth. This really angered Pollock very deeply and he said, "Don't give me any of your 'chance operations.'" He said, "You see that doorknob?" and there was a doorknob about fifty feet from where he was sitting that was, in fact, the door that everyone was going to have to exit. Drunk as he was, he just with one swirl of his brush picked up a glob of paint, hurled it, and hit that doorknob smack-on with very little paint over the edges. And then he said, "And that's the way out."
Pollock was a bit of a cunt.
I guess if you plan ahead and set up with the intention of recording "finished" sound you don't need post production. That said I personally find that much more effort than it's worth, we everyone can have access to great post production tools no matter what your budget and honestly it's just sensible to at least check the levels before sending your stuff to the pressing plant / whatever you use to make your physical releases.
It depends, of course, on how good is the recorded material without any editing. Working a lot on single sounds and samples, I try to get the better result I need with the take, working a lot on the effects regulation and equalizing from the mixer. But it basically never happens that the result is so satisfactory to skip the post-editing phase.
It depends on the material, the intention of the recording (or the whole project) and the desired aesthetic.
There may be cases, that a "live"-recording without much (or any) postproduction my be desirable, f.e. to achieve a certain rawness or immediacy.
When working with vinyl, due to the requirements of the duplication process, a certain degree of postproduction seems to be mandatory.
The thought crossed my mind that "working with vinyl" like working with CD Cdr and cassette is now an aesthetic decision* and no longer a physical requirement. *with the advent of digital downloads.
Yes, I see the decision to release on vinyl as an aesthetic decision as well. Release on cassette as well, as much as any other medium.
My basic premise is that 99% of all recordings today are done digitally, so release on cd or download is pretty much only a 1:1 duplicate of the original file with next to no restrictions (there may be a change of bit-depth or similar, but only very limited influence on frequency range, dynamics, phase...). So whatever the artist can create can be released.
However, vinyl may be a little more demanding on how the material in question has to be prepared, as the process of vinyl duplication is more complex (including a certain human factor as the cutter etc.) and there are more technical-restrictions as well. So in the case of vinyl, there is more of a direct influence of the medium back to the creation of the original material (which may be executed in post-production).
Yes - well aware of this - I submitted a Noise piece for a Lathe Cut from Dr Dub - which burnt out their cutter. head....!
Quote from: -NRRRRK- on January 14, 2021, 04:56:15 PM
...the process of vinyl duplication is more complex (including a certain human factor as the cutter etc.
Can this be expanded upon? I mean, no one is actually manually "cutting" the vinyl master. If, for example, the mastering job does not accommodate the technical requirements of the machine used for the master, either dynamic sound is lost or (as stated) the machine self-destructs. (I guess? I have no knowledge on vinyl production nor mastering beyond basic, off-hand hearsay).
But.. to return to my original purpose on this posting: what exact "human factor" is involved in the person who produces the original that is then duplicated for a "pressing?"
I hope someone who knows the details – don't! but cutting the master for vinyl pressing is I think still a manual process. For one - the length of the music affects the size of the grooves. High frequency can cause cutting and playback problems – but the real problem is Bass – especially stereo – where if loud the groove can disappear! I've seen an animation of this and why – stereo uses two cutters at right angles, many drum and bass therefore uses mono bass & low frequency. Also the depth of the groove affects the spacing – so loud disks are shorter in length. Add to that special effects – locked grooves, or the Monty python LP with two different tracks on one side – often you will see a signature on the Vinyl of the technician. Which means for vinyl the production of the recording has to take the physical nature of the cutting into account for a good master. There are lots of tips on this on the web.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_reHCXXJNQ4
===> more detail https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYQi5uG94Ec esp the last part
Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense. Cutting the vinyl master is a balancing act, then, between various factors. For example, if one aspect of frequency / length of side / etc. were to be cut theoretically perfect, its opposing factor would be ruined or degraded. So there are multiple considerations to evaluate in relation to each other. Hence, the master is not literally "cut by hand," but the aspects by which it is made is weighed by human discernment.
Quote from: MyrtleLake on January 16, 2021, 05:13:32 PM
Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense. Cutting the vinyl master is a balancing act, then, between various factors. For example, if one aspect of frequency / length of side / etc. were to be cut theoretically perfect, its opposing factor would be ruined or degraded. So there are multiple considerations to evaluate in relation to each other. Hence, the master is not literally "cut by hand," but the aspects by which it is made is weighed by human discernment.
I think this was stated at the end of one of the videos that a pressing plant will 'play safe' given a master - so the result may not be as it is intended - hence having a professional do this in consultation with the artist. This not applicable to cassette or Digital recording. Also accounts for certain studios being preferred - i think Bennett talked about this.
Quote from: MyrtleLake on January 16, 2021, 05:13:32 PM
Hence, the master is not literally "cut by hand," but the aspects by which it is made is weighed by human discernment.
Yes, the lacquer is not "cut by hand" in a sense that somebody is using a knife or chisel to manually cut it, but they operate a machine which does the cutting.
However the machine has parameters in which it works which can be influenced by the operator.
And there may even be EQs or compressors at work to alter the source signal which is fed into the cutting machine.
Quote from: -NRRRRK- on January 17, 2021, 11:53:46 AM
Quote from: MyrtleLake on January 16, 2021, 05:13:32 PM
Hence, the master is not literally "cut by hand," but the aspects by which it is made is weighed by human discernment.
Yes, the lacquer is not "cut by hand" in a sense that somebody is using a knife or chisel to manually cut it, but they operate a machine which does the cutting.
However the machine has parameters in which it works which can be influenced by the operator.
And there may even be EQs or compressors at work to alter the source signal which is fed into the cutting machine.
Yes - its obvious when you see a signature of the engineer literally cut into the master with a pin or something on the inner section of vinyls. I also mentioned locked grooves -
I also mentioned this "A vinyl record may be double-grooved, with the second groove containing the hidden tracks. Examples of double-grooving include Monty Python's 'three-sided' Matching Tie and Handkerchief, "
Hard to explain - but on one side are two spiral tracks - depending on where you place the stylus you get either one - a friend had this and its quite a shock when you think you're playing this and hear the 'alternative' track for the first time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_track