I was reading the other topic about other music forums, and conclusion was that not that much out there at the moment. Few places were mentioned, butcomment was "Sadly though IMO none offer any actual discussions".
I often face nearly identical discussions, where core seems to be, that something is missing, but what exactly... is hard to say.
Lets say,
-Someone is looking lists of new releases, but concludes that has no idea what this stuff is, and there is nothing that triggers interest. Look to old catalogue in other hand seems like hundreds of mind boggling items, even if you don't really know what it is.
-Someone is looking for new magazine, but there doesn't seem to be any. If there is, it won't cover the niche one wants.
-Or people featured do not appear such "personalities" as in past. Instead of noise heroes and industrial protagonists, you got... well, other types.
-Noise festivals that used to be almost taken for granted... but where now?
-Or gig situation in Finland. There used to be flow on foreign artists playing gigs and Finnish shows all the time, but now.. different? One can still see more gig announcements than one can possibly visit, but I've seen many conclude that things are "not what it used to be", hah.
etc etc
Change is both inevitable and mandatory, but tends to also create feeling that something is missing. Something crucial. I don't think any of the things mentioned are really true. It is rather illusion created by certain things.
Yet, the feeling is of course there. Is there something one would miss, not merely in nostalgic sense, but feel that genre without THAT loses some formerly intrinsic quality? And is there anything what could be done about it? And whether this change is in the genre or rather the observer?
You make some interesting points which I can agree with, "something is missing"... and i've given this some thought... so (IMO) firstly i'd say what is missing is 'novelty'. When 'noise', (and the same goes for PE, Industrial et al) first broke it was novel, new, surprising and for some shocking. This in any genre cannot last, and so I think is missing. For instance the poorly photocopied cassette inlays, etc. soon became not new but de rigour. Following on from this two other things I think occurred, firstly not only was the graphics at first 'radical' to become a (mere?) style, so to the music / noise. Even to the extent of the "How can I get Xs sound, what gear to use?" Etc. - Questions. The maybe less obvious was a kind of post event reaction, that is wanting to re-musicalize. There was also a certain 'band-wagoning' of non-noise acts not so much re-packaging, but re-naming their work as 'noise' and re introducing elements of musicality, in particular, skill and meaning... so diluting noise's 'radicalism' (I must repeat IMO). And finally and perhaps more contentiously noise around and just post the millennium found itself as a subject for academic interest, witnessed by such as Hegarty's book of 2007 and others. And even more contentiously this created IMO (esp. in the USA) a certain anti-intellectual response. Which is a type of almost 'religious' fundamentalism, and a religion without theology becomes sterile, bland and mere empty gesture... which maybe accounts for its decline amongst some who still see merit in the likes of Buddhism etc.
I would tend to agree with the points raised by both of you. Having been away from noise for a long time, the whole field now seems to lack the vitality it had even ten years ago.
JLIAT mentioned an absence of 'novelty', which seems like the best term to use. It can easily seem like everything that can be done, has been done when it comes to noise. The glut of imitators and bandwagon jumpers doesn't help matters, since they only appear interested in trying to replicate the sounds that have gone before.
Personally, I still see noise as being the greatest way of finding novelty in sound.
The question, as far as I see it at the moment, is how can we bring back that freshness, vitality and novelty?
Quote from: JLIAT on June 23, 2020, 04:08:12 PM
And even more contentiously this created IMO (esp. in the USA) a certain anti-intellectual response.
A hard sell there, I think. Specific examples or I'm not buying.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on June 23, 2020, 04:53:55 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on June 23, 2020, 04:08:12 PM
And even more contentiously this created IMO (esp. in the USA) a certain anti-intellectual response.
A hard sell there, I think. Specific examples or I'm not buying.
"Really my rudeness is pretty much just saying Cunt and motherfucker or posting a corny video in reply to something serious."
Quote from: JLIAT on June 23, 2020, 04:08:12 PM
And even more contentiously this created IMO (esp. in the USA) a certain anti-intellectual response. Which is a type of almost 'religious' fundamentalism, and a religion without theology becomes sterile, bland and mere empty gesture...
This pretty much describes the planet right now, and with everything interconnected at such a highly pervasive level --with social media, 24/7 news cycles, etc-- there's no hiding from anything. You'd have to be disconnected to a great level to
possibly avoid that all-powerful mentality. I guess what I'm saying is that there are few pockets hidden from, or shielded away from, the empty gestures and anti-intellectual climate of our world as a whole. Our politics. Or like the stuff happening in NASCAR that mimics things in the 1950s and before. Negative, violent reaction rather than progressive, creative, and forward-thinking. The short game rather than the long game. It's interesting that one aspect about shortening attention spans and fast-moving technology is that we get fixated on trying to be in the moment. The distractions are so powerful and many that we realize our minds are racing about nothing, so we desire and fight to be present
right now, and in possibly being so successful in being present in this exact moment right now, we then have little capacity to imagine forward. Like any addict. Fucking phones and the Apple drugs.
Maybe a parallel question we should be asking ourselves is not just what is missing in noise, but what is now routine in noise? I would contend that if you're going through the motions when it comes to making, purchasing, listening, discovering or discussing noise, then it goes against the principles of the genre itself. If the only methods you've had of accessing this genre for the past 10 years, either as a spectator or a producer, is by turning on a power source, clicking a mouse/keyboard and navigating it via a screen, you need to switch your methods up. I'm not necessarily saying that noise should return to the physical methods of the past, but it definitely needs to go beyond the repetitive and uniform. Noise should rub you the wrong way, be out of place in your surroundings and provoke the senses. Music is adaptive but noise is maladaptive.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 23, 2020, 06:37:57 PM
(...)shortening attention spans and fast-moving technology is that we get fixated on trying to be in the moment. The distractions are so powerful and many that we realize our minds are racing about nothing, so we desire and fight to be present right now, and in possibly being so successful in being present in this exact moment right now, we then have little capacity to imagine forward. (...)
Not 100% what I think, but, I think there is that lack of perception. Caused by so much things of history get lumped to be 1 thing, and today there is
none of that. Lets say, someone would conclude "there was this great time when magazines like Bananafish and ALAP came out, there are no longer good magazines like that". This is fact. There is no magazines like that now. But fact is also, that there never really was except very precise moment when issue came.
Or lets say, one imagines what a great festival was this one particular happening or bunch of them. Yet, those were isolated incidents within decades of time. Fact that this year is nothing, barely makes this year
less than countless of other years.
That makes me appreciate even as simple topics as "good harsh noise right now".
This year. Perhaps even this MONTH, I honestly believe, there has emerged probably best harsh noise tape ever done in Finland. It's a bold statement. I ain't saying it will revolutionize genre itself. That is perhaps only flaw. It is harsh noise. Someone may conclude it is just the same old. I just do not agree.
Greatness of material certainly gives it validation of vitality of genre and possibilities. You can still, on monthly basis, discover new item better than many older classics one stubbornly considers "classic". Only missing quality is indeed novelty! I personally do not really value novelty high. It is nearly worthless quality to look for, actually.
I have heard REALLY high % of noise made in Finland, yet I can still conclude that that was fucking brilliant. Project being The New Boyfriends. Probably not the name that will enable to sell a lot, haha.
Not to mention for example new Nuori Veri tape. I listened that multiple times before, but I think I listened it 5 times today, and would say if something should be "a thing", that could be. You know, tape that is remembered. Something people are still talking decade later - "do you remember back in good ol' days when Nuori Veri tape on Aussaat came out", haha...
Many finn projects did actually their best material in recent times. I just don't think it will "register" in any public consciousness that this is the case.
I also have feeling that this could be true in case of many current USA harsh noise releases. They may lack some qualities of the best of old noise, BUT, there are so many releases one hears and could wonder if we are actually in golden age of noise without realizing it? This is something what is sort of missing. Awareness of situation. I have hard time to really pinpoint or even focus the text - yet also that is kind of related. Something is missing, ... but what?
As for the "anti-intellectual response" or whatever, one can't deny its existence in way that Jliat describes.
However, for me, it slightly disappointing when "intellectual" is used as synonym of specific politics OR etiquette of dialogue. Not to relating to ability to think and understand things, especially complicated ideas. It is fairly crucial in noise/industrial, and it seems also to be of element that is missing far too often.
Quote from: theotherjohn on June 23, 2020, 07:10:27 PM
Maybe a parallel question we should be asking ourselves is not just what is missing in noise, but what is now routine in noise? I would contend that if you're going through the motions when it comes to making, purchasing, listening, discovering or discussing noise, then it goes against the principles of the genre itself.
This is good. That said, I know one of the routines in noise is - that I will start to type manifest. This is consciously being avoided - whether it has been for good or bad, who knows. Yet it feels already as is, I'd rather see other inputs on subject matter than my own, hah..
Anyways, I am tempted to discuss about thing I have discussed privately with many friends: Possibilities of noise in concrete, physical experience, but NOT commercial one. I know, that for my label or distribution to exists, it has to be what it is. But noise band, or artist or release in general. Sometimes it seems as if one could not even imagine anymore other way of existing, than business transaction? There is barely small enough artist or band, that there wouldn't be big cartel. That main reason of existence of release is commodity rather than communication. I fully acknowledge this may be lack of perception. Yet for years I have discovered ways other than what constitutes as "part of music business". Something I sense, was integral part of older noise & industrial.
Many things flourish from infra of "noise professionals". That is not problem. Problem seems if everything somehow exists in form of "noise professionals" - basically merchants.
Todays noise is not missing quality for sure. Guys who do it good, either be newcomers or veterans, release stuff that stands by any standards, though i cannot say that will be classified as classics in the future cause at the end how many classics a genre can have ? The first ones have the advantage and the priviledge, rightfuly !
Maybe the answer is not general, but we have to ask what we miss, each one of us, and see if there is something in common. For guys who are here from the beginning -lets say 90s- , active, with interest in, i guess while 30 years involved speak for their passion, it's hard to not get tired at some point, to feel fulfilled, that they have seen it all. And to feel they miss those more enthousiastic days, that new things were happening / created, and when even the process fueled this enthousiasm even more ! - Then you had only your collection, and your friends' . You had to write letters, to ask, go to post office, to wait more, etc. This is physical involvement ! And makes things more valueable ! - I guess there was this feeling of belonging, of true underground, of creation, of discovery ... Today noise is underground hidden in plain sight. Almost everything a click away.
I wasnt here from the beginning, not even close ! In fact if it wasnt internet -which i blame for what is 'missing' - i probably wouldnt know there is such thing as noise at all ! Not here i live, not then. - While older guys in noise may miss what they lived in the past, i miss what i missed ! - Cause i am old enough to have lived pre-internet times in my teens, to remember how it is to collect money, to go to the city to the record stores, come back and play the things you bought. The only things you could listen, your collection. - Now too many 'distractions' . I struggle to focus, really. Too much information, too much music at 'hand' , too much of everything ! That all seem ephemeral, for daily consumption ... This hasnt to do only with noise ofcource. - I try to balance, to slow down, to give time, to focus, but it's hard ...
Old times were more 'meaningful' .
Quote from: Theodore on June 23, 2020, 11:23:29 PM
only things you could listen, your collection. - Now too many 'distractions' . I struggle to focus, really. Too much information, too much music at 'hand' , too much of everything ! That all seem ephemeral, for daily consumption ... This hasnt to do only with noise ofcource. - I try to balance, to slow down, to give time, to focus, but it's hard ...
Old times were more 'meaningful' .
I agree with this sentiment. I find that when listening to music online, especially noise/p.e., I have a really hard time focusing on it. I think that the reason might be that in the back of my mind is the thought that I
could be listening to something else. The ease of simply swithching between tracks on youtube, bandcamp, etc. makes this very easy to do. The pressure (I guess you could call it that) distracts me from what is going on in what I am listening to.
However, when listening to music on a physical format (it doesn't really matter which) - even if it is the same music that I had been listening to half-heatedly online - I am able to focus and immerse myself.
Being deemed a classic is a common discussion. I doubt I've been on a music board that didn't ask it. I think that label may have been more readily earned in the past, but the key there is: earned. Now all we have to do is define that, or any other term you'd like to use. I've absolutely heard stuff in the past 10-15 years I feel is a classic. That has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with my mindset. Then, others have to arrive at that same conclusion, because without cultural agreement on some level, I don't think it can qualify as a classic. If no agreement, it's just a favorite of mine or whoever. Metaphorically speaking, it didn't hurt that in the distant past, nearly everyone in the community, whether being in the city or out in the surrounding farmlands, heard that particular album. Things weren't as fragmented, with 1000+ copies, and with fewer makers (though, I don't know how much weight I'd give to that variable); we were all ingesting the same information. It's a lot more probable for a group to come to a conclusion if everyone has experienced it, and that larger group also gives that conclusion greater weight.
But back again, it's like politics or anything else in life. The more fragmented and sheltered within our own groups we become, the less shared experience there is. Monocultures are rarely healthy or good. Eventually, it lacks integrity. The subset can deem something classic, but that label can't likely withstand the scrutiny of the greater community. Basic stuff, really. But I think that is where we are now.
Going to read this all when I have a good second, just got a chance to go through the first 3 posts.
I think to go along with the "novelty" point, one of the major hurting factors in noise is things like Bandcamp and Soundcloud. To me experiencing noise is a big selling point. I don't really think noise should be listened to like music so simply doing nothing more than posting releases for download completely devalue it as a full "experience" and just seems lazy to me.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 23, 2020, 07:44:41 PM
They may lack some qualities of the best of old noise, BUT, there are so many releases one hears and could wonder if we are actually in golden age of noise without realizing it? This is something what is sort of missing. Awareness of situation. I have hard time to really pinpoint or even focus the text - yet also that is kind of related. Something is missing, ... but what?
It would be unlikely that anyone living through any nostalgic 'golden age' would have experienced it as such. At the time, most of the people we consider to be the prime movers of PE or noise were just kids. They were largely non-musicians who wanted to make their own version of music, and they used what they had available to create it. They had passion, fire and the will to do something completely contrary to what existed in the mainstream. It's only in retrospect that we acknowledge the importance of their work.
Nowadays, we're paralyzed by choice when it comes to creating our own music. The same plethora of possibilities has also allowed for complete morons to release utter tripe, thus muddying the water for genuine, committed artists. We take so much for granted that, to our influences, would have been either inaccessible or unimaginable, e.g. something as simple as a DAW vs. an old Tascam 2-track and bouncing down tracks. Even more bizarre when you think about it: We try to emulate sonic processes that would have been unwanted when our noisy forebears were working, e.g. wow and flutter, tape hiss, etc.
Beyond that though, the current cultural climate most certainly stifles the sorts of primal expressions we would have seen in these circles in the past. No longer can edgy artwork or lyrical content be put out there, unless you don't mind losing your entire future due to the baying, imbecilic mob. It's not even that it's necessary to noise for these elements to be included, but we should have the freedom to do so and to hell with the feelings of fools. Honest, sincere expression is what art is all about, and if that expression involves screaming about hating x, y or z then have at it.
There's definitely that 'something' missing, but I suspect that it's a variety of factors at play.
- No freedom of expression;
- The dilution of the essence of noise...or something less wanky, but in that direction;
- Choice Paralysis/Shitflood of sub-par 'artists';
- Too much copycat'ing and trying to repeat what has gone before.
Interesting to see what others are thinking, but I do agree that we could well be in a 'golden age' for noise.
Quote from: JLIAT on June 23, 2020, 06:17:05 PM
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on June 23, 2020, 04:53:55 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on June 23, 2020, 04:08:12 PM
And even more contentiously this created IMO (esp. in the USA) a certain anti-intellectual response.
A hard sell there, I think. Specific examples or I'm not buying.
"Really my rudeness is pretty much just saying Cunt and motherfucker or posting a corny video in reply to something serious."
Lazy reading on my part (or is that the point?). I'd somehow thought you were going noise specific. The argument could of course be made, I'm just not the one to make it.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 23, 2020, 07:44:41 PM
I can still conclude that that was fucking brilliant. Project being The New Boyfriends.
I actually hesitated to pick that up, not for the name but because I was only familiar with the (admittedly quite rrrripping) Aprapat half. Duly sample via bandcamp and once that first metal-on-metal whang whangs home- instant wood.
Will definitely need to properly read through this thread but am now in the middle of a meeting, heh.
Zeno makes some valid points about establishing classics in a genre, but I'm not sure that is something to be aspired to in noise. A critical ear or eye is important of course, but when pinnacles, masterpieces or canons are established, it often marks the death knell of a body of work. Just like major record labels releasing Best Of compilations to fulfill an artist's contract, or retrospective exhibitions being organised by art galleries to mark the legacy of an artist that has seemingly reached their prime. It's good that discussions like this are being raised that something IS still missing in noise, as it implies that work is still yet to be done and territories are still to be explored, even if right now we might be examining this from a nostalgic standpoint. Nostaglia, of course, used to be considered an illness...
Novelty is crucial, and it's likely what got us all interested in noise in the first place. Be it from reading about notorious Hanatarash shows of the past... picking up a NON 7 inch with multiple spindle holes and locked grooves... trying to avoid having to get a tetanus jab from handling a noise release covered in rust, razor blades, or barbed or mesh wire... receiving a mail order package that comes with a handwritten letter/postcard, bizarre xeroxed fliers or even having everything packaged up in torn pages from a local newspaper in the sender's native language... the list goes on and we can all name examples, be they small or large, experienced or apocryphal. But the internet (which we've seemingly all defined as the culprit to blame) has dulled the impact that all this has. Remember the "PayPal'd" meme of the Troniks forum? What a curse that turned out to be in the end. All you need to do is add something to the Shopping Cart and that's it. Doesn't arrive? Bitch and complain about it online, and keep feeding the beast. And we don't even have to wait for the thing to arrive now in this digital age. It's just another folder on your hard drive with a square thumbnail, like every other album/download/rip/file you have. Not very noise if you ask me.
The commercial/economic point that Mikko raises is one contentious facet of noise, but again to ask another parallel question, what about the ecology of noise? Which again, Zeno and others hint at. What effect is the way you cultivate, organise, hunt, farm or destroy noise playing on your self and the larger environment in the short term and longer term? Is digital more of a burden than physical? Is a collection best appreciated when listened to until worn out, or played once/never before being shelved indefinitely? Aren't all vinyl releases ultimately limited editions? Will download cards go the way of the spraypainted CDr? What will replace tinnitus as an inevitable byproduct of noise for generations to come?
... sorry, I lost track of myself there.
A lot of the movers and shakers (which is to say organisers) have moved on to other things. Some got sick of it, others became famous doing shitty techno and drone etc, now looking down somewhat on where they began (not big problem really, but a part of what we're talking about)
The internet has indeed enveloped things in ways that make them more sub divided, localised and temporary and there are fewer instances of meaningful interactions which lead to real life, actual in the world products of people communicating and working together. Sure, people trade files over the internet and throw out collabs which is cool, but gigs, touring etc....it seems quite rare now besides some of the usual people having their once a year holiday outing. I was speaking with a friend about the old chondritic forum recently and for all the complaining about it at the time that was a spectacular resource of information and a hub in which a massive cross section of different networks did their thing showed what they were doing and shared space. A lot of older heads harped on about how the internet had spoiled the old ways of trading through mail and finding proper, in it for life contacts through STRUGGLE but I bet they never could have envisioned that so much of their culture would in less than 10 years become almost entirely mediated through posts on a social networking app. I'd love so much to be able to read back through that old deleted forum, I don't think many people realised at the time quite what it meant. And how could they have?
There is also way less happening now in terms of differing styles, aesthetics, approaches, people etc cross pollinating on the same platforms. Might have been a UK specific thing but a typical gig in, say, 2006 could have seen some art hippies, weirdo loner solo noise act, screaming destructive 2 min set nutter with absurd props and then sort of industrial thing all happening in the same night. It felt like it was all part of the same world and coming from similar places but was stylistically totally different per each act. Now it seems like all of those things exist but in separate, dedicated scenes which is boring. Same goes for a lot of releases with sounds and imagery treading the same ground over and over again. I just don't think there is the same variety or pool of influences for a lot of newer artists finding their way to draw from and so you end up with an absolute bucket load of the same kind of thing over and over again. I think this probably turns a lot of would be newer or continuing fans off.
It just seems like there are ultimately a lot fewer differing voices and influences at play now which leads to a shallowing of the waters in which everything proliferates. I might not like it but it's probably the natural order of things. I doubt there is much can be done about it until a load of new, younger people who don't give a fuck about what I or any of the rest of us think step in and start making something radical.
Quote from: Duncan on June 24, 2020, 02:28:24 AMThere is also way less happening now in terms of differing styles, aesthetics, approaches, people etc cross pollinating on the same platforms. Might have been a UK specific thing but a typical gig in, say, 2006 could have seen some art hippies, weirdo loner solo noise act, screaming destructive 2 min set nutter with absurd props and then sort of industrial thing all happening in the same night. It felt like it was all part of the same world and coming from similar places but was stylistically totally different per each act. Now it seems like all of those things exist but in separate, dedicated scenes which is boring. Same goes for a lot of releases with sounds and imagery treading the same ground over and over again. I just don't think there is the same variety or pool of influences for a lot of newer artists finding their way to draw from and so you end up with an absolute bucket load of the same kind of thing over and over again. I think this probably turns a lot of would be newer or continuing fans off.
I remember that time well as I played at and visited a lot of those events. I also remember the snobbery, backbiting and bullshit that went on between different parties. Different strands of ideas or references if you like. It was hardly a supportive let it rip because anything goes underground movement. From my point of view there was also an underrepresentation of the styles and sounds that I am most interested in which is why when I put on my own events I took the decision to be very exclusive. One reason being to keep the above mentioned bullshit out of it and two to promote and support the things I have the most passion for. I have no regrets doing that. From my position it was necessary.
That said, with things becoming the way they have I agree that something went missing. Maybe the worst of the finger pointers and snobs could reconsider their actions of years ago? If they're still around. I doubt many of them are.
I think some perceptive illustrations have been given – what is missing – there is a video by the late Mark Fisher.. in which he presents the idea that Music culture has become a sign of a pathology of time... the removal of a sense of history newly ubiquitous waning of history... what is missing =
"The Bad News is the future has disappeared"
Unable to grasp the historical moment in which we live "we are trapped in the 2oth C" 21st C is the high speed internet delivery of the 2othC. (Sadly Fisher got out by killing himself)
Fisher talks of 'communicative capitalism', and i agree with a sentiment above that politics isn't that valid, in that itself has become victim to the loss of the future... but Baudrillard i think gets closer, he also points to the removal of the "drama of alienation" by communication technology... again something another post references...
"We no longer partake of the drama of alienation, but are in the ecstasy of communication. And this ecstasy is obscene.... not confined to sexuality, because today there is a pornography of information and communication, a pornography of circuits and networks, of functions and objects in their legibility, availability, regulation, forced signification, capacity to perform, connection, polyvalence, their free expression."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCgkLICTskQ
Well it might just be that a genre, noise in this case goes through some historical process, like Punk, at first radical, aliened, shocking, and new, then a 'classic' period and then commonplace... and this model seems to relate to many things, in art, but also in stuff like phones and fashion...
Or perhaps something 'bigger' - "The Bad News is the future has disappeared"
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on June 24, 2020, 11:04:43 AM
Quote from: Duncan on June 24, 2020, 02:28:24 AMThere is also way less happening now in terms of differing styles, aesthetics, approaches, people etc cross pollinating on the same platforms. Might have been a UK specific thing but a typical gig in, say, 2006 could have seen some art hippies, weirdo loner solo noise act, screaming destructive 2 min set nutter with absurd props and then sort of industrial thing all happening in the same night. It felt like it was all part of the same world and coming from similar places but was stylistically totally different per each act. Now it seems like all of those things exist but in separate, dedicated scenes which is boring. Same goes for a lot of releases with sounds and imagery treading the same ground over and over again. I just don't think there is the same variety or pool of influences for a lot of newer artists finding their way to draw from and so you end up with an absolute bucket load of the same kind of thing over and over again. I think this probably turns a lot of would be newer or continuing fans off.
I remember that time well as I played at and visited a lot of those events. I also remember the snobbery, backbiting and bullshit that went on between different parties. Different strands of ideas or references if you like. It was hardly a supportive let it rip because anything goes underground movement. From my point of view there was also an underrepresentation of the styles and sounds that I am most interested in which is why when I put on my own events I took the decision to be very exclusive. One reason being to keep the above mentioned bullshit out of it and two to promote and support the things I have the most passion for. I have no regrets doing that. From my position it was necessary.
That said, with things becoming the way they have I agree that something went missing. Maybe the worst of the finger pointers and snobs could reconsider their actions of years ago? If they're still around. I doubt many of them are.
All of that may very well be the case; I wouldn't try to dispute it and I should imagine that this sort of dynamic exists/existed lurking below the surface appearances of any small scene. Internal disagreements, disputes and differences in character are probably another reason lots of things have become factionalised and people have turned their attentions elsewhere. It's a legitimate part of this conversation because it doesn't take many people moving onto something else to radically change what the 'scene' looks like, and in most cases it's fair enough that people refine and refocus what they want to see, hear and do.
I think my point still stands though that for a period there was an awful lot more variation going on in the tastes and approaches you'd see happening in any one place. For someone who was young and new to things at that time it was and still is an inspiring situation and an element of that seems absent today.
Missing parts... We may name it, but why? Noise/industrial music was/is and will be the biggest niche in music/art ever... this is a genre where is, probably, more artists than customers. This genre is dead as an art since many years. It won't change that purchasing many records monthly by some units, like me... it won't change that many (?) concerts, labels and other free-downoload pseudoartistic activities, it won't change that all boon of the Internet and other advantages of technological development. I don't care about that.... yes, I prefer older times.... Who doesn't prefer that? When I see still the next, the same covers with pornographic images, still the same titles and still the same names of less- or more known serial killers etc., and still the same sound/formats of noise, I vomit... Sorry, then, I prefer elder things.
I think there was also much more tolerance for subpar crap just because it had the benefit of being a name of the past aided by the endorsement of certain long standing movers and shakers of the scene. It reached a crescendo in 2012 when at least I felt there was a need to promote new and better skilled blood to counter act the nostalgia that had started to poison everything.
As the quote says from Theotherjohn, nostalgia is an illness.
The variations you talk of were badly harnessed in my opinion. At the time I'd be enjoying lots of different things at gigs but the main nub was the shitiness that came from a lot of different players. I was new to it too then, at least being active as in playing and going to gigs as regularly, and I entered that world with a sense of naivety thinking it would be an experience full of interesting people exchanging ideas, approaches, knowledge, experiences as well as having a laugh. Those people existed of course but having also observed quite the opposite enough times I more and more came away with the sense that the prevailing attitude of "us, them, maybe them too but certainly not those cunts over there" was bad for everyone and was going to have consequences in the long run. Going by your words the effects of that have since become reality.
Maybe we're all poorer for it, and I don't say this as an indictment as much as attempting to explain the observation I made long ago about the damage that was being inflicted and where it came from.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on June 24, 2020, 12:32:10 PM
nostalgia is an illness.
I share this opinion.... but...
What you prefer, imperfect original or perfect copy? I prefer the first, so should I name myself as "nostalgic"?
Would you choose to go and see a drunk and ailing Boyd Rice "because its NON man" and it's something for the CV having seen him over the tight brute force that is Kevlar right now? That is what bothers me. Because it's like choosing to see a fat Elvis who couldn't sing two weeks before he died over the Elvis of 1956. That's what many people seem to prefer and although I have to accept it I'll never agree with it.
Preferring an old classic release from the past over a recent release by a current band that on a superficial level may be doing a similar or watered down version of the old classic is not the same thing. Listening to old music is never a problem. The example in the above paragraph is what is killing things.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on June 24, 2020, 01:16:51 PM
Would you choose to go and see a drunk and ailing Boyd Rice "because its NON man" and it's something for the CV having seen him over the tight brute force that is Kevlar right now?
Nowadays Boyd is a caricature, so probably I would prefer Kevlar though his "the tight brute force" is only, more or less a successful copy. Speaking about "imperfect original" I didn't mean old, fat "heroes" from the eighties who are using noise only as a tool - time machine - back to their glory days today. I disrespect such attitude, probably in every case... I meant "imperfect original" as something (records, phenomenas) in the past.
It strikes me that this notion is very similar to modern day 'tribute bands' - or as Fisher points out bands like the Artic Monkeys, or Amy Winehouse, simlucra of previous genres.
So I think your analogy is wrong, seeing a fat Elvis in 1977 as opposed to the thin Elvis of 1956 is not the analogy of Kevlar / Boyd Rice. Personally i'm not interested in tribute bands, their aesthetic seems to be how close they can be to the 'real thing', but never better?!
Boyd Rice at the outset was shocking, both the present BR and Kevlar possibly now lack this.
I think its a question of 'categories'. There was a phenomena which became known as Noise, (Or power electronics) the phenomena came first. Now if a 'band' decides to be noise (or PE) the process is the reverse. 'Noise' before it became categorised as such, (its category being 'what the fuck is this!) was unidentified. Now a noise band or its audience, seeks identity, as a noise band, where as the originators did not.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 24, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on June 24, 2020, 01:16:51 PM
Would you choose to go and see a drunk and ailing Boyd Rice "because its NON man" and it's something for the CV having seen him over the tight brute force that is Kevlar right now?
Nowadays Boyd is a caricature, so probably I would prefer Kevlar though his "the tight brute force" is only, more or less a successful copy. Speaking about "imperfect original" I didn't mean old, fat "heroes" from the eighties who are using noise only as a tool - time machine - back to their glory days today. I disrespect such attitude, probably in every case... I meant "imperfect original" as something (records, phenomenas) in the past.
I knew what you meant and my post was about clarifying my position and not criticising yours. I think we are in agreement except over maybe Kevlar. To me they are a continuation of a tradition and a refining of it. Semantics perhaps.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on June 24, 2020, 02:04:00 PM
I knew what you meant and my post was about clarifying my position and not criticising yours. I think we are in agreement except over maybe Kevlar. To me they are a continuation of a tradition and a refining of it. Semantics perhaps.
Even if you wanted to criticise my position I wouldn't see it as a problem for me. I like essential disputes very much. So, I am very interested in your sentence "They are a continuation of a tradition and a refining of it". In what, specifically, they are refining this tradition?
PS. I don't know how you and others, but I hate every tradition (especially in the art/music) and I am convinced that everyone should break every tradition in his life.
Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 01:53:48 PM
It strikes me that this notion is very similar to modern day 'tribute bands' - or as Fisher points out bands like the Artic Monkeys, or Amy Winehouse, simlucra of previous genres.
So I think your analogy is wrong, seeing a fat Elvis in 1977 as opposed to the thin Elvis of 1956 is not the analogy of Kevlar / Boyd Rice. Personally i'm not interested in tribute bands, their aesthetic seems to be how close they can be to the 'real thing', but never better?!
Boyd Rice at the outset was shocking, both the present BR and Kevlar possibly now lack this.
I think its a question of 'categories'. There was a phenomena which became known as Noise, (Or power electronics) the phenomena came first. Now if a 'band' decides to be noise (or PE) the process is the reverse. 'Noise' before it became categorised as such, (its category being 'what the fuck is this!) was unidentified. Now a noise band or its audience, seeks identity, as a noise band, where as the originators did not.
I didn't use the example to claim that Kevlar are having the same impact as Elvis in 56. Clearly they aren't. My point is that as much as there were people who discarded Elvis when he was vital and missed the boat there are people who choose to do the same in our genre. I used Kevlar as an example but I could just as well have said Himukalt or Human Larvae.
I don't care about shocking. If that's what you think I and those I work with are about then that says more about you than us. But I know you as a guy who likes nothing you review so what you have to say on any current music is a moot point.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on June 24, 2020, 02:13:57 PM
I didn't use the example to claim that Kevlar are having the same impact as Elvis in 56. Clearly they aren't. My point is that as much as there were people who discarded Elvis when he was vital and missed the boat there are people who choose to do the same in our genre. I used Kevlar as an example but I could just as well have said Himukalt or Human Larvae.
I don't care about shocking. If that's what you think I and those I work with are about then that says more about you than us. But I know you as a guy who likes nothing you review so what you have to say on any current music is a moot point.
I think the notion of 'shocking' was originally in the shock of the new, was not the objective, merely a by-product. My point was the notion of 'genre', when it becomes generally accepted, is a sign that the originality of what became identified as a genre is over.
I'd rather not personalize this exchange but if you knew me, and my reviews you would see in the main i'm positive, though maybe someone (not me) who didn't like contemporary music couldn't say something useful or interesting maybe should be heard? Or for that matter is "liking" the only criteria for musical appreciation.
From Vomir...
NO ACT
NO POINT
NO RESULT
NO REMORSE
NO STRATEGY
NO COMPROMISE
NO DEVELOPMENT
NO RHYTHMIC JOY
NO EMO FEEDBACK
NO VISCERAL DRAMA
NO PC AESTHETICS
NO CLEAN ACOUSTICS
NO SOCIAL CONCERN
NO GENITALS POWER
NO PERSONAL INTERACTION
NO ENTERTAINMENT
MONOLITHIC FRONTAL SOUND
HARSH NOISE WALL
Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 02:48:14 PM
From Vomir...
NO ACT
NO POINT
NO RESULT
NO REMORSE
NO STRATEGY
NO COMPROMISE
NO DEVELOPMENT
NO RHYTHMIC JOY
NO EMO FEEDBACK
NO VISCERAL DRAMA
NO PC AESTHETICS
NO CLEAN ACOUSTICS
NO SOCIAL CONCERN
NO GENITALS POWER
NO PERSONAL INTERACTION
NO ENTERTAINMENT
MONOLITHIC FRONTAL SOUND
HARSH NOISE WALL
So, this (anti-) manifesto is adequate answer for main question from this post. Everything what Vomir wrote is true reason of collapse noise/industrial music.
I think what's missing is lack of music. For every new album there's an older one that sounds alike, only better.
Maybe nowadays there's a new album every month that is better than, e.g., Second Annual Report. But there's no need to bother seeking those new albums out, because you already have Second Annual Report - along with decades worth of other fantastic industrial/noise/whatever records. Just pick one of those you've already got and enjoy. Which was not the case when records in question were initially produced. There was no Second Annual Report before Second Annual Report.
If today people stopped releasing music forever, we'd still have more records for any taste than one is able to listen through in a lifetime. New music has become redundant, and that's what makes it less interesting than older, non-redundant music.
Another thing that's missing for me personally - and I believe for many other people - is being young. Everything is new and exciting when you're 20. When you're 40 - the grass is just not as green, so you go to a Brighter Death Now show and instead of having crazy fun like many times before, you just get bored, get drunk and go home wondering what exactly was missing. And 40 is not even old by noise standards, seems more like modern noise listener's average age to me.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 24, 2020, 02:56:43 PM
So, this (anti-) manifesto is adequate answer for main question from this post. Everything what Vomir wrote is true reason of collapse noise/industrial music.
Not as far as i'm concerned, i gave two possible ideas why something is missing, one that genres naturally progress through stages until they ossify - become traditions, the other more radical that what is missing is 'The Future'.
I gave the Vomir quote simply to say that whilst aesthetics, enjoyment etc. are part of music, its not the whole story, i could have equally cited Cage.
HNW, like 4'33" and say Malevich's black squares pose not so much a problem but a 'limit'.
Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 03:15:46 PM
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 24, 2020, 02:56:43 PM
So, this (anti-) manifesto is adequate answer for main question from this post. Everything what Vomir wrote is true reason of collapse noise/industrial music.
Not as far as i'm concerned, i gave two possible ideas why something is missing, one that genres naturally progress through stages until they ossify - become traditions, the other more radical that what is missing is 'The Future'.
I gave the Vomir quote simply to say that whilst aesthetics, enjoyment etc. are part of music, its not the whole story, i could have equally cited Cage.
HNW, like 4'33" and say Malevich's black squares pose not so much a problem but a 'limit'.
I knew that you quoted Vomir in different context. Your two possible ideas why something missing are true but they are only descriptions of external phenomena, not mechanics of process which is much more complicated and touches crisis of our culture at all. This crisis was captured (I guess that in different meaning and other context) in (anti-) manifesto by Vomir.
i have had this conversation with a friend somewhat recently about what is 'missing' nowadays with noise music in general, and we couldn't really put our finger on it either. been in touch with this guy for over a decade at least. both feel the same. i remember us both saying much of what has been said here already. but we boiled it down to what seems to be an all around "lack of effort". the casual, easy, and more business like effect the internet has had on doing things.
back in the times we were both glowingly reflecting upon.... the physical act of doing actual labor to get money, then travelling to the city to visit select shops one was only aware even existed by word of mouth, or hand-to-hand sharing of zines, catalogs.... to spend hours searching physical items. the reward and excitement when browsing non-alphabetized used cd/record section under blanket statement genre of 'industrial / experimental'... and then you find the merzbow disc. you have never heard it, you just know it is the not-music-at-all type of cd you're craving... what all the anticipation, preparation, the whole trip is for. its a name you've seen praised more then others, or just printed in more catalogs then others. no mp3 sampling beforehand to go on. you travel home and get in the right headspace to fully absorb what you are about to hear. you still question how the sounds were made. enthusiasm. wonder. it is a feeling i personally have totally lost in almost every aspect of life. but i know i still love noise, still seek to listen, still get a glimmer of that feeling. the recent discs by Heat Signature hit the mark... make me realize i still love noise.
i also remember speaking about the aspect of sound creation now. referencing a certain project, casually watching/listening their videos on whatever platform. sound could certainly be considered technically 'good', something i should like... but then i see it is all coming from one little box with several knobs, not some large chain of different effects boxes and strange looking objects connected by 20 patch cables. now you can make instant harsh noise out of one box, for around $150. no mystery, no endless trials to achieve the sounds you are seeking to create. no happy accidents or obtuse learning curve. purchase your premade noise device with paypal, its delivered, plug in, then upload to bandcamp or whatever. all sounds different, yet all the same. and all full of whatever is causing this apathetic feeling, all lacking the missing thing we are trying to identify. i've never used any site like that for anything. honestly felt disheartened when i contacted dilloway about recent nevari butchers tape and he said get it on bandcamp... i have since learned physical copies exist but having never used that site or app or whatever it is i instantly took it to mean mp3. now of course i have downloaded plenty of mp3s, but didnt even have fast internet until 2008 maybe? and i always bought what i truly enjoyed if it was affordable or accessible, going as far as to delete things i liked just to kick my ass into buying it. still can't wrap my head around the concept that people actually pay for mp3s, and that is the whole of the product they are receiving...
but anyway... if you even go the extra mile to produce a physical item anymore, then there is the artwork... very little art these days has the impact that browsing the old msbr records website had. like "whoa, this is what the record looks like?! a pile of melted plastic & metal!!" certainly matched the sounds, the anti-mainstream-in-every-way approach noise seemed to embody in all aspects back then. now noise appears to have its own mainstream i guess you could say. pictures sourced from endless hours of screen-time time-killing, not from magic moment in used bookshop or obscure anatomical/military textbook taken out of local library dumpster, or grandpas weird magazines...
"the past is the enemy of the future" is the full phrase from which i took the name for the ahlz tape. at the time it was reflecting on the more childlike enthusiasm for life in general i felt had slipped away from me. it was the sentiment of dedication. i've always fought change though have learned it is inevitable. still i'll fight it to the point of self destruction. you make your bed, you lie in it, and like it. captain goes down with his ship. 15 years later, i am applying the enemy of the future phrase to the very thing i was attempting to use as a force against change from occurring, and feeling like the future won the fight. was always destined to i guess...
perhaps this is just they way things go, with anything, once you're involved in it for 10, 20, 30+ years... perhaps it is just me who is now bored & boring, jaded to the point of a skeptical, nihilistic, beaten down jerk. perhaps, but i dont think so since so many others seem to feel similarly.
Quote from: collapsedhole on June 24, 2020, 04:14:48 PM
perhaps this is just they way things go, with anything, once you're involved in it for 10, 20, 30+ years... perhaps it is just me who is now bored & boring, jaded to the point of a skeptical, nihilistic, beaten down jerk. perhaps, but i dont think so since so many others seem to feel similarly.
I could share everything what you wrote. Very nice! Yes, there are more than you or me, but it does change nothing.
One more digression - anyone knows group (three or more) of young (between 18-25) noisers/industrialsts, from one place who together and independently are doing something under one name, one sentence/motto/manifesto in real time, in real place, in real society? How things could be better if young, the most rebellious people prefer sitting before their laptops in their houses?
Quote from: A-Z on June 24, 2020, 03:15:09 PM
Another thing that's missing for me personally - and I believe for many other people - is being young. Everything is new and exciting when you're 20. When you're 40 - the grass is just not as green, so you go to a Brighter Death Now show and instead of having crazy fun like many times before, you just get bored, get drunk and go home wondering what exactly was missing. And 40 is not even old by noise standards, seems more like modern noise listener's average age to me.
This is an interesting point, though I think that it brings some problems too. I am young and like noise. My experience getting to know this style of music has, as you said, been fun and exciting - lots of projects, albums, etc. to catch up with. However, I am also entering something that has already-established figures and masters of the style. I would not say that this is intimidating, but more that there is always a nagging feeling in the back of my head that "my noise will never be as great as that of a master." In all likelihood, this is a problem on my part that will hopefully be solved with increased experience in making/listening to noise.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on June 24, 2020, 07:10:08 PM
I am young and like noise. My experience getting to know this style of music has, as you said, been fun and exciting - lots of projects, albums, etc. to catch up with. However, I am also entering something that has already-established figures and masters of the style.
I've found this has been my biggest hindrance to originality. I'm 29 and my intro to noise, 5 years ago, was Pharmakon and Prurient, introduced to me via black metal. I mentioned this to a friend at work who turned out to be a bona-fide noise freak and put me onto the path of Filth & Violence, Genocide Organ, Mathausen Orchestra, MB, Con-Dom etc etc etc. The more I learned about the genre (all while establishing my own shitty project) the more I realised I was consciously plagiarizing a certain sound out of a desire to be "authentic".
It's only now that I'm slowing down my output, not only cos I have more grown up obligations, but because I've realised that I'm yet to find my own voice in the genre, my own subject matter even.
I can't speak to what is missing in previous generations, but I feel like if I could change anything about the current one, it would be a lack of self-scrutiny from some contemporary artists. Of course there are more people now into noise than ever before, and naturally the pool of lower-quality acts will have increased as it would with any genre, but with such a traceable lineage to look back upon there are no excuses to be simply a clone of a legendary artist. It does no harm to step back and ask what you actually have to offer before putting it out there.
I should clarify that none of the artists mentioned in the thread so far are the target of my criticism here. For example Kevlar, and for that matter the whole Unrest roster, more than justify their existence in today's 'scene'.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 24, 2020, 03:30:47 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 03:15:46 PM
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 24, 2020, 02:56:43 PM
So, this (anti-) manifesto is adequate answer for main question from this post. Everything what Vomir wrote is true reason of collapse noise/industrial music.
Not as far as i'm concerned, i gave two possible ideas why something is missing, one that genres naturally progress through stages until they ossify - become traditions, the other more radical that what is missing is 'The Future'.
I gave the Vomir quote simply to say that whilst aesthetics, enjoyment etc. are part of music, its not the whole story, i could have equally cited Cage.
HNW, like 4'33" and say Malevich's black squares pose not so much a problem but a 'limit'.
I knew that you quoted Vomir in different context. Your two possible ideas why something missing are true but they are only descriptions of external phenomena, not mechanics of process which is much more complicated and touches crisis of our culture at all.
I may not be reading quite right (wouldn't be the first time!), but what I get here is the suggestion that the external critique does not- and cannot- account for individual emotional investment.
...
Eg
What would impel anyone to write something like-
NO ACT
NO POINT
NO RESULT
NO REMORSE
NO STRATEGY
NO COMPROMISE
NO DEVELOPMENT
NO RHYTHMIC JOY
NO EMO FEEDBACK
NO VISCERAL DRAMA
NO PC AESTHETICS
NO CLEAN ACOUSTICS
NO SOCIAL CONCERN
NO GENITALS POWER
NO PERSONAL INTERACTION
No visceral drama. No strategy. No social concern. The posting could read as very strategic socially concerned potentially visceral example of drama, with the expectation of considerable personal interaction. (No comment on the power of the genitals involved.)
...
If so I'd agree.
Quote from: NaturalOrthodoxy on June 24, 2020, 07:50:15 PM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on June 24, 2020, 07:10:08 PM
I am young and like noise. My experience getting to know this style of music has, as you said, been fun and exciting - lots of projects, albums, etc. to catch up with. However, I am also entering something that has already-established figures and masters of the style.
I've found this has been my biggest hindrance to originality. I'm 29 and my intro to noise, 5 years ago, was Pharmakon and Prurient, introduced to me via black metal. I mentioned this to a friend at work who turned out to be a bona-fide noise freak and put me onto the path of Filth & Violence, Genocide Organ, Mathausen Orchestra, MB, Con-Dom etc etc etc. The more I learned about the genre (all while establishing my own shitty project) the more I realised I was consciously plagiarizing a certain sound out of a desire to be "authentic".
It's only now that I'm slowing down my output, not only cos I have more grown up obligations, but because I've realised that I'm yet to find my own voice in the genre, my own subject matter even.
I can't speak to what is missing in previous generations, but I feel like if I could change anything about the current one, it would be a lack of self-scrutiny from some contemporary artists. Of course there are more people now into noise than ever before, and naturally the pool of lower-quality acts will have increased as it would with any genre, but with such a traceable lineage to look back upon there are no excuses to be simply a clone of a legendary artist. It does no harm to step back and ask what you actually have to offer before putting it out there.
I should clarify that none of the artists mentioned in the thread so far are the target of my criticism here. For example Kevlar, and for that matter the whole Unrest roster, more than justify their existence in today's 'scene'.
I think that it might be important to have a period of imitation, though. At least for me, discovering F&V was a like a flash of inspiration. It made me discover what I want to do. But just being a clone is not worthwhile in the long run - as you said, true authenticity is important. Perhaps the internet has made it to easy to "release" music. The first demo I did was done in probably a day, and then uploaded to Soundcloud on a whim It was pretty bad from my current perspective (and no longer represents the direction I would like to go). I know that if my only option for release was by producing a tape or cdr, I would never have done it.
Unless the paradigm for noise is different now to other art forms in the past, and it might be, then there are many examples where the significance of a genre declines and those still within the genre become less significant to the point of mere repetition – which invalidates the genre or their use of the term for their work. A simple example would be someone now painting hay stakes and water lilies in the style of Monet. Their work would neither be considered 'Impressionist', or they to be impressionist artists. Though they may enjoy their practices and there is nothing wrong with that. " Sam MacKinley, also known as The Rita, considered the genre [HNW] as "the purification of the Japanese harsh noise scene into a more refined crunch, which crystallizes the tonal qualities of distortion in a slow moving minimalistic texture." " And the origins of Noise itself has a similar causal history. It was then in any post-genre, the taking of the current genre and producing something original from that. Either by extending it, "purification" as above, or by rejecting it, "I stopped playing music and went in search of an alternative."— Masami Akita. And you will find very many examples in the arts of this sort of process.
The only alternative to anyone now claiming to be doing the same thing as Masami Akita and Sam MacKinley have been identified as doing, "Noise" and "Harsh Noise Wall" respectively, is that this very paradigm no longer exists.
It is this latter idea which I (IMO) think is more tenable.
P.S.
I'm not sure what the "mechanics of process which is much more complicated" means or are, or if this is relates and if so how to "individual emotional investment."
Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 08:18:08 PM
I'm not sure what the "mechanics of process which is much more complicated" means or are, or if this is relates and if so how to "individual emotional investment."
I'm not sure either. But it probably has to do with how easily one or another can be charted and graphed. It's not rocket science. It's more of a grey area where uncertainties prevail. This is not to say the graphical representations ought to be inched out. I am infinitely interested in the charts and graphs. But also suspect they are not capturing the whole.
Another way to read this is how the average Joe or Joette takes an intellectual re-presentation of his or her taste. I'd guess most would look in something akin to askance at a chart measuring their ability to properly assess the quality of, say, something entering their earhole.
I don't see this as anti-intellectual. I see it as suspicious of potential pseudo science. Yes, we all know e equals mc squared, whatever the fuck that means. But go into certain realms and you are playing with fire.
At least Freud knew how to write.
Quote from: JLIAT on June 24, 2020, 08:18:08 PM
I'm not sure what the "mechanics of process which is much more complicated" means or are, or if this is relates and if so how to "individual emotional investment."
My English is poor and I use too many so called Polish-English phrases. This is, probably, one of them and you must face with this my imperfection ;) I have meant "Mechanics of process" as something like cause and effect relationships. I consider an art (and music of course) as a part of bigger process which is stimulated at the same time inside and outside of culture. I guess that every human idea (in art, religion, politics and so on - in culture at all) is ruined in so called reality, in ordinary life. Question is, why "idea" is ruined? Why life kills an art? Why the man prefers easy life than pain and transgression? Such questions we can multiply, but always answer will be the same... and the same are reasons why idea and reality aren't on the same level in our material existence.
Noise/industrial as the most extreme trend in music and one of the most radical in the art is a foreign and unwanted object in human life, in a society... in a culture. The natural process is crowding-out of unwanted things/pain from a body/psyche of human, and in the culture. Noise is a pain; noise is an idea of sound which is the closest in our mind, so is the most connected to TRUE. People don't accept True, so they are rejecting this art from their life. This process of crowding-out has another face... This process converts every foreign body/idea into much more accepted shape in human's perception. And I meant just this one "much more complicated mechanics - process" which is determinded by disability of human's mind and primitive needs, and so weak culture which is human's illusion.
What is very important here. Not every enthusiast of noise/industrial is able to resist to cultural crowding-out process or converting into more accepted shape... And this is the most pessimistic in this problem.
Maybe the last 5-7 or so years, for me at least, with Instagram is that you realize how HUGE noise is and how many different little niche scenes there are out there. Maybe social media has opened my eyes to that, perhaps it's a consequence of everyone being into everything now, I know (hey I'm 40 the average age for noise people) I would never want to consider myself defined as "this" or "that" simply because I just like too many things and hey, because I'm 40 and who gives a shit about how you're defined? Oh sorry now they call it "your brand".
I know when in the mid 2000's I discovered The Rita, Vomir, etc it seemed so far removed from even other noise stuff like Wolf Eyes or MITB or the Merzbow/Release stuff or even Sunn O))) even though everything was interconnected, it felt like about 50 other people were into the same stuff. It obviously wasn't the case, but you rarely get that feeling of "discovering" exciting fresh things any more. Even the rate Italian prog record you hear is due for a deluxe 180g vinyl reissue and everyone heard about it last year.
No hate on social media - I like Instagram as much as the next loser for noise related stuff. And I am constantly fucking up my wife's spotify algorithm by sampling stuff I want to hear.... that being said I buy a shitload of tapes and records and I'm always finding cool stuff to listen to.
tldr nothing feels "special" anymore and we're not unique
Quote from: holy ghost on June 24, 2020, 11:47:15 PM
tldr nothing feels "special" anymore and we're not unique
Maybe that is why labels like Goatowarex and Wrath (small runs, fancy packaging) are so popular now.
It seems to me that what a lot of people are hinting at, or brushing up against, is the sense that there is less culture. Maybe we have an anthropologist or two in here to better dig into that? Not less community, as so many of us have anti-social tendencies, yet we obviously still have interest in other human activity. Anti-socials proving we are indeed social beings. Rousseau would be jazzed with that irony, or at least I think he would be.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 25, 2020, 12:33:43 AM
It seems to me that what a lot of people are hinting at, or brushing up against, is the sense that there is less culture. Maybe we have an anthropologist or two in here to better dig into that? Not less community, as so many of us have anti-social tendencies, yet we obviously still have interest in other human activity. Anti-socials proving we are indeed social beings. Rousseau would be jazzed with that irony, or at least I think he would be.
I guess there is too much culture.. but less a true, new and transgressive art.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on June 24, 2020, 01:52:40 AMI actually hesitated to pick that up, not for the name but because I was only familiar with the (admittedly quite rrrripping) Aprapat half. Duly sample via bandcamp and once that first metal-on-metal whang whangs home- instant wood.
I had a bit of a listen, too. Didn't do much for me. I prefer Aprapat, what I've heard.
what's missing is strength of character via artistic endeavors and social fluency.
and if there is anything the history of noise has taught us it is that external forces (ie: social media, mass culture) have nothing to do with it.
Quote from: Strangecross on June 25, 2020, 05:53:56 AM
what's missing is strength of character via artistic endeavors and social fluency.
This.
And more in-depth discussion and proper writing. Feels kinda sad when someone has worked hard for months or even years on an album, and the only comments the album gets are "This shit slaps", "Scorcher!", "Flame emoji" or whatever in some instagram post or on a forum board. Sure there are some rather well written reviews and (almost) articles here on this board for example, but it's mostly just spontaneous comments. There are a handful of zines, and some of them are great. But they need to be more in numbers, and they need to differ from eachother with different takes, angles, content, aesthetics (blacknwhite semi-abstract xerox art is nice, but for fucks sake...)... That's what I'm missing; more diverse writing that elevates noise just a little bit above something you indulge in to pass two hours after supper before bedtime.
Quote from: Baglady on June 25, 2020, 04:22:17 PM
Quote from: Strangecross on June 25, 2020, 05:53:56 AM
what's missing is strength of character via artistic endeavors and social fluency.
This.
And more in-depth discussion and proper writing. Feels kinda sad when someone has worked hard for months or even years on an album, and the only comments the album gets are "This shit slaps", "Scorcher!", "Flame emoji" or whatever in some instagram post or on a forum board. Sure there are some rather well written reviews and (almost) articles here on this board for example, but it's mostly just spontaneous comments. There are a handful of zines, and some of them are great. But they need to be more in numbers, and they need to differ from eachother with different takes, angles, content, aesthetics (blacknwhite semi-abstract xerox art is nice, but for fucks sake...)... That's what I'm missing; more diverse writing that elevates noise just a little bit above something you indulge in to pass two hours after supper before bedtime.
I could write - do it youself! ;) Use free - blog-sites and other places... I know not everyone has got possibilities to write, not everyone can create music etc., but, if there is such possibility, why not to try? Besides, I suppose that there isn't so big need reading anything. Most of so called noise/industrial enthusiasts don't care about that.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 25, 2020, 04:40:10 PM
Quote from: Baglady on June 25, 2020, 04:22:17 PM
Quote from: Strangecross on June 25, 2020, 05:53:56 AM
what's missing is strength of character via artistic endeavors and social fluency.
This.
And more in-depth discussion and proper writing. Feels kinda sad when someone has worked hard for months or even years on an album, and the only comments the album gets are "This shit slaps", "Scorcher!", "Flame emoji" or whatever in some instagram post or on a forum board. Sure there are some rather well written reviews and (almost) articles here on this board for example, but it's mostly just spontaneous comments. There are a handful of zines, and some of them are great. But they need to be more in numbers, and they need to differ from eachother with different takes, angles, content, aesthetics (blacknwhite semi-abstract xerox art is nice, but for fucks sake...)... That's what I'm missing; more diverse writing that elevates noise just a little bit above something you indulge in to pass two hours after supper before bedtime.
I could write - do it youself! ;) Use free - blog-sites and other places... I know not everyone has got possibilities to write, not everyone can create music etc., but, if there is such possibility, why not to try? Besides, I suppose that there isn't so big need reading anything. Most of so called noise/industrial enthusiasts don't care about that.
I am working on a printed thing after a decade of just writing reviews and thoughts in my notebooks. But while that is rewarding even without an audience (yet), I need others to write more so I have something to read. For me it has always been good writing that have kept me interested and curious in the genres I'm into. Something to bounce my own thoughts and views against.
Quote from: Baglady on June 25, 2020, 04:22:17 PM
Quote from: Strangecross on June 25, 2020, 05:53:56 AM
what's missing is strength of character via artistic endeavors and social fluency.
This.
There are a handful of zines, and some of them are great. But they need to be more in numbers, and they need to differ from eachother with different takes, angles, content, aesthetics (blacknwhite semi-abstract xerox art is nice, but for fucks sake...)... That's what I'm missing; more diverse writing that elevates noise just a little bit above something you indulge in to pass two hours after supper before bedtime.
I decided not to involve anymore in the discussions on the forum, but this hits a nerve and is even what is missing on this forum, although maybe not because many (including me) see this more as a Freak Animal / though guy noise forum, not as a regular noise forum for everyone. But yes, voicing different views and opinions is a necessary one and also why everybody should do their own thing and not be limited by the imaginary boundaries of a genre or aesthetic created or envisioned by someone else. But then, there are so much different things already happening that the only problem I see is that communication has yet been changed, from more interconnected forum culture to a more individualistic social media culture. And if everyone is doing it's own thing, it's obviously harder to connect for bigger events and world-wide happenings.
But as someone that only got into noise 10 years ago I never witnessed the 'golden days' of noise. And sure, reading about it sounds thrilling and the liveliness is something that's very different from today, and even I do miss going to record shops and be thrilled to see Merzbow or a slow MP3 download at the beginning ages of the internet, the obscurity of projects and bands with no information to be found on the internet and ordering obscure CD-R's from Russia from names I couldn't even decipher..........but there are so many interesting things happening today, complaining about noise not being the same as yesterday sounds like old-farts shouting to clouds in the sky because the weather is not as nice as yesterday.
Quote from: JLIAT on June 25, 2020, 11:18:56 PM
Dissemination and intercourse is not wanking - mutual or otherwise. If you and whoever you agree with think its wanking to argue that Throbbing Gristle were not industrial is wanking.... i can go with this. "Fuck off with your intellectual discourse " yes bring on Trump and the Taliban. They know what's what ...
Yes the OP is right - something is missing. Reason, common sense and politeness. Oh and innovation- sorry guys..
I didn't even have an issue with Impulsy, in fact I quite enjoy his writing on this area. You, on the other hand, seem like a pompous, purposefully contrarian ass.
Your presence on every forum seems to lead to situations exactly like this. Have you considered why that might be?
The fact that you inexplicably throw Trump and the Taliban into your reply is just bizarre.
If you want to have a discussion about the semantics of "Industrial", go start a thread or discuss it privately.
You derailed a useful discussion, plain and simple,
[/quote]It's funny it is being read that way. I do agree with your conclusion, though. You read it as intellectual discourse, and I read it as nihilism in the form of verbosity, which absolutely arrived at the same deathly place.
[/quote]
Aha, at least the younger folks here get a taste of how the golden era of alt.noise and rec.music.industrial felt like. Maybe Soddy (whom I remember from those days on alt.noise, and iirc also Nick was around) can confirm. But maybe my memory fails me and it was really different.
As a side note —and not as a conversation starter, as unfortunately I am time-constrained—I believe nothing is really missing, other than the realisation that noise/industrial/PE is now (and has been for a long while) a well established and diverse subculture, kinda like, say, jazz or blues. A subculture which plays a central role in the lives of many here (for me that's the case for sure). Or if you want, that makes them feel alive. (A nice recent addition imho is that there are a lot of pretty girls contributing to the scene, and they were sadly almost non existent back in the 1990s.)
Whats missing imho is ultimately peoples fear of saying the wrong thing. Going off of GEWALTMONOPOL mentioning snobbery, I think this is what is making people shy to discuss things. Especially on this message board with people who are considered "elite". Going off of Zeno Mark stating that most of us are "anti-social" yet we love to come here to chat it makes sense. Instead of engagement on here we have people who basically await the "leaders" to make topics and then they discuss them. Its very much a social club whether or not people want to think it is.
Quote from: JLIAT on June 26, 2020, 12:36:23 AM
Quote from: Japsi on June 26, 2020, 12:14:13 AM
You derailed a useful discussion, plain and simple,
Please show how it was useful.
It was useful cause it was interesting for me to read peoples 'simple' opinions on this matter based on their feelings. Read collapsedhole's post for example. Something that is personal, something that i can relate to, something that i enjoy to read. Yours, i cant even read ! Dont know if you write the biggest 'truths' in there, i cant follow all this blah blah, i dont care and i dont think anyone asked for a philosophical analysis ! Neither for a 'solution' , as you probably mean by 'useful' ! We asked for personal opinions ... not bibliography. - And that's not even the problem. Problem is you go on and on and on ... You dont stop man !
Bringing Trump and Taliban here. Makes sense. It's you who had brought holocaust and seeing everywhere racists in the covid thread, isnt it ?
Come on ! Let others speak. You dont have to answer everything. Dont educate me more please.
<re- The New Boyfriends>Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 25, 2020, 05:48:21 AM
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on June 24, 2020, 01:52:40 AMI actually hesitated to pick that up, not for the name but because I was only familiar with the (admittedly quite rrrripping) Aprapat half. Duly sample via bandcamp and once that first metal-on-metal whang whangs home- instant wood.
I had a bit of a listen, too. Didn't do much for me. I prefer Aprapat, what I've heard.
It's been in fairly regular rotation since tape plonked into deck a couple weeks ago. I think I would initially have agreed on the superiority of Aprapat alone. But also having already been so enamored of Aprapat, further benefits of potential doubts would doubtless be extended anything the project is involved with.
But I just don't think I can emphasize enough how
much wood that initial whanging stirred up. Even during the intervals where interest might otherwise be inclined to flag, there's still that suspense that further wood-bestirring whangs are around the corner at any second. By the second or third time through it dawns on me I am a convert, and I'm probably cribbing from the imaginary notes I was writing in my head the other day so excuse the gushing. And maybe I'm too easy to please, but I'm going to sneak into the end of this sentence that, since I first rolled into this shit however many moons ago till now, nothing has ever felt to me to be missing.
From life, yes. Noise, no.
ok so just make another thread about how its really obvious that the shared experience of the conception of the industrial genre is obviously subjective
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on June 26, 2020, 10:24:50 AMBut I just don't think I can emphasize enough how much wood that initial whanging stirred up.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on June 26, 2020, 10:24:50 AMAnd maybe I'm too easy to please, but I'm going to sneak into the end of this sentence that, since I first rolled into this shit however many moons ago till now, nothing has ever felt to me to be missing.
From life, yes. Noise, no.
In years to come I'll be referencing both of these quotes.
Please save this thread Mikko
Back to the original topic, although I agree that something feels missing, I think that the noise & industrial scene is stronger currently than it has been in the last few years. The main thing that I've noticed in the last 15+ years is the fragmentation into micro-scenes and communities that wasn't as present before. Now you have distinct audiences for harsh noise wall, ultra-offensive crude PE, euro style heavy electronics, Macronympha worship American noise, ambient field recording tape music, etc.. and these audiences have a lot of division between them.
I saw a bill from 2007 posted the other day:
Air Conditioning
Mammal
Paranoid Time
Cadaver In Drag
Bloodyminded
That's a HUGELY dynamic lineup, none of the acts sound anything like each other, but the entire thing makes sense. It's rare for these kind of events to happen anymore. I know this has been touched upon earlier in the thread, and I'm uncertain of how things were in Europe during previous decades, but attending shows in USA\Canada during the '00s was a lot more of a trip than it seems now. You'd have shows with one noise act, a punk band and then Lightning Bolt. Or for example No Fun Fest throwing everything you could possibly fit under the umbrella of 'experimental music' into one massive weekend. Or have Bastard Noise, The Endless Blockade, and The Rita all playing on the same night. Lots of crossover and diverse crowds. Attending Industrial\Noise fests in recent years, I can normally tell that I'm in the youngest 10% of the audience, and I'm in my mid 30s. The increasingly insular micro-scenes of noise and industrial don't attract much new blood, which is needed to keep things exciting and fresh.
I do think that things are getting better however, due to institutions of the last 20-30+ years like Tesco, RRR, Freak Animal, Hospital, Cold Spring, Self Abuse etc still being active there's also new labels\distros\shops like Cloister, Dead Gods, WCN, Skeleton Dust, Scream & Writhe, Fusty Cunt and New Forces that are really getting significantly stronger and bigger as time goes on. The lack of new print media is a bit sad, but makes sense based on the gravitation towards the internet for most written word. I travelled playing and attending shows a lot in 2019 and there's definitely cities in Europe and the US that are still able to attract healthy crowds. Just my personal take on things, and I'm guilty of occasionally waxing poetic on how things were better back in the day, but I also don't think they are in a particularly rough shape currently.
Quote from: totalblack on June 26, 2020, 08:54:17 PM
The main thing that I've noticed in the last 15+ years is the fragmentation into micro-scenes and communities that wasn't as present before. Now you have distinct audiences for harsh noise wall, ultra-offensive crude PE, euro style heavy electronics, Macronympha worship American noise, ambient field recording tape music, etc.. and these audiences have a lot of division between them.
Even though the loss of print media in favor of the internet has its bad sides (not that I have read zines), a definite benefit of the internet has been in providing an easier means for people to connect with these scenes. I know that some people here are critical of easy identification/access, and I guess it causes some of the mystique to disappear. However, I am thankful for it.
Agree with what Brett said above. I've been working on an upcoming issue of the New Forces zine and I wrote about some of my favorite Robedoor releases from the early period of the band (a drone/noise band that has since morphed into something different). That particular flavor of noise seems to be way less prevalent than it was 10-15 years ago (and maybe didn't appeal to a lot of people on this board) - bands similar to Robedoor, Emeralds, Yellow Swans, Burning Star Core and so on... drone-based stuff that was fully part of a "noise" underground, stocked in distros, limited cassette releases, shows alongside "harsh" acts, and so on... Seems like a lot of artists in that zone aged into academic sound art or techno and it wasn't replaced with a new generation that could sit comfortably alongside some of the harsher stuff. Or maybe it still exists and is just totally separate.
Quote from: totalblack on June 26, 2020, 08:54:17 PM
I saw a bill from 2007 posted the other day:
Air Conditioning
Mammal
Paranoid Time
Cadaver In Drag
Bloodyminded
That's a HUGELY dynamic lineup, none of the acts sound anything like each other, but the entire thing makes sense. It's rare for these kind of events to happen anymore. I know this has been touched upon earlier in the thread, and I'm uncertain of how things were in Europe during previous decades, but attending shows in USA\Canada during the '00s was a lot more of a trip than it seems now. You'd have shows with one noise act, a punk band and then Lightning Bolt. Or for example No Fun Fest throwing everything you could possibly fit under the umbrella of 'experimental music' into one massive weekend. Or have Bastard Noise, The Endless Blockade, and The Rita all playing on the same night. Lots of crossover and diverse crowds. Attending Industrial\Noise fests in recent years, I can normally tell that I'm in the youngest 10% of the audience, and I'm in my mid 30s. The increasingly insular micro-scenes of noise and industrial don't attract much new blood, which is needed to keep things exciting and fresh.
This was actually pretty common, especially in Chicago up until at least 2016. I remember a show from 2012 or 2013 that was:
Bongripper (Doom Metal)
Winters In Osaka (drone)
Deterge (PE)
Sea Of Shit (grindcore)
Absolutely completely different sounds all around. And that was a very good thing. I've always thought it was a good idea to put bands and noise acts on the same bill because it offers such an extreme variety. It think that's why when we did Varnish in 2013 with such a major variety of music and (different) sounding noise/PE artists that Chicago was arguably the best scene in the country until Varnish II killed it (kind of went full circle, ha) in 2016 almost 4 years to the date later.
I tried to do the same in Pittsburgh upon arrival, but was gassed out on starting from scratch. Even still, the shows here tend to be pretty dynamic as far as performances go.
A trend I always witnessed also that is toxic is the fear of new or younger people getting into it. Even if you have 100 new people coming in per year with only 1 or 2 that stick around and give us something great, it's worth it to sift through the crap. It's easy to tell immediately who will be gone in a few months to a year, not as easy to tell who will stay, so I will welcome the new and the change with open arms.
I think we can say that inevitable changes that lead to make things easier has to be accepted, but the fact may be that the off-screen investigations into discovering this world made character developing experiences. A time and place, a real object found and held in ones hand, and in person experiences. The old masters had more experience.
I see this hinted at, but more in an argument about downloading music and edition size, and not this setting.
The concert line-up Brett shows, has evidence of people coming to noise through other genre's... the 'noise rock' and other experimentations that came from close knit scenes simply do not exist now. All smaller sects of genre are really 'post-______'
Nowaday's lineups, to the discerned ear may be varied, but not as varied as that! you pretty much have new harsh noise, if it commemorates old school noise or not.
So like I said before, what is missing is strength of character via artistic endeavors( like collapsed hole's experience in trying to communicate his feelings on life at the time) and social fluency(the point where those themes catch on and create a following)
and I said that external forces have nothing to do with- well they do, but my point is it is the individuals that matter, not how they broadcast.
so I think these strength of character is what Mikko sees as missing?
and does that really mean discovery of noise and developing as an artist is easier now, or harder? depends on the person I guess
I think what's missing, particularly when somebody like Will brings up things like "character," is basic integrity. And human decency, but that's arguably private.
Quote from: totalblack on June 26, 2020, 08:54:17 PM
Lots of crossover and diverse crowds. Attending Industrial\Noise fests in recent years, I can normally tell that I'm in the youngest 10% of the audience, and I'm in my mid 30s. The increasingly insular micro-scenes of noise and industrial don't attract much new blood, which is needed to keep things exciting and fresh.
Reminds me about the Gothic/Industrial Scene discussions, when Cyber Industrial pops up. Its like the People heere are imprisont in a Micro Scene, while the World around keeps turning. There are a lot Noise InfluencedMusic and it will be more in the Future. The borders are no more and the "Crossover" isn't marked anymore and the definition of Noise and Industrial are meaningless in the Music World around the Micro Cosmos, called "Noise Scene".
As example shows Ghostemane Prurient in the Playlist, while attracting mostly young People with a Emo/Rap/Death-Black Meta/lHardcore/Noise "Crossover whats its not called Crossover anymore.
So, in my Opinion the new Generation is just making their own WITHOUT the past and the borders and definitions of the past. And this is nothing really new at all. I attendet a lot of Noise Concerts with mostly young People into Art/Fashion and not into Noise Scene. Often i was a single "Noise Head" with more than 30-50 Art/Fashion People around...
I feel that currently, and over the past 3 or so years, the noise field ("scene") has gotten quite interested and actively healthy again. I felt like it was rough out there for a few years ca. 2012-2015 when so many people had turned acted like noise was "over" and moved on to EBM/techno/etc. Maybe some considered this "eclectic" but I found it simply populist. A lot of those people are back now, and I welcome them back with open arms, no judgement - I really think it's great. After all, noise IS life/joy, so just glad more people are coming around, old and new.
I don't think anything is really "missing" - as I said, I think there are a lot unique and talented new and active artists networking right now and releasing music right now, and a pretty hungry passionate audience (this is what was missing on a larger scale during the above mentioned drought more than anything, as I think there was a lot of interesting artistic activity during that time as well).
I will however make the blunt statement that I think the fact that Instagram has taken over as such a major platform for communication and advertisement in the noise scene simply SHIT. This comes from my personal belief that Instagram (other social media platforms as well, but IG is the worst) are in general SHIT for the human being - on an individual psychological level and on a societal level. The superficiality, the narcissism, the vanity, the dumbing down of language inherently promoted by the platform, not to mention the corporate parasitism of your personal information... I find it simply sad and absurd that the majority of the world has accepted and embraced it and literally enslaved themselves with it (I'm not holier than thou - I've used these platforms in the past, and still do to some extent).
The fact that so many people are willing mix this pathetic attention whoring / guilty pleasure McDonald's platform that really only people aged 16-19 hoping to find sex/"someone who finally understands them" should get a pass for using, with UNDERGROUND NOISE CULTURE (a perhaps cringeworthy term but one I choose to wear on my sleeve, as it means the world to me) is truly shameful in my mind, and I do believe it has a tangible effect on the culture. I'm not sure I can describe objectively in what ways, but a banal example would be: labels who exist primarily on instagram posting hot batches designed to sell out in an hour, cool perfect aesthetics, but once you get the tapes they are shittily printed and the dubs SUCK (another thing no one in noise seems to care about these days - sound quality of physical media. As long as it's an "analog" format, the people buy it up and don't make a peep. And as long as the label sold it out and got enough FIREBALLS on their intagram post, they're happy too.) Or even established labels / artists who only announce their releases on IG because it's just easier. I totally get offering certain items to the dedicated few who are tapped in - when I came up in the Troniks board era, lots of things were announces exclusively there. It's just a CHOICE you have to make as an artist or label, which says a lot to me about your values and dedication, and I'm baffled by the CHOICE of so many to use a corporate data mining cellphone app responsible for the decline of civilization as the sole channel to promote things of the spirit, especially when there are so many other options!!!!
RANT over for now - I can and should be more specific about a lot of what I'm trying to say here, as I feel this is just the tip of the iceberg but please, tell me I'm not buggin????
I don't disagree with anything above said about Instagram but having said that, I still like it (dare I say "depend" on it) for keeping up to date with a lot of releases coming out. Also I like staying up to date with people posting all kinds of their projects/releases/now playing updates. As discussed several times in this thread the average age for noise people seems to be a lot older and often involves people working full time, having kids (not me, ugh but some people) and I see people IRL so rarely I'm willing to use a platform for staying in touch and being able to interact, even if it's only a "like"...... besides the horny teens and spooky goths are already on ticktock or snapchat or whatever else.
In short, I couldn't rely on the "new releases" section of this board to keep me updated on the movers and shakers I like to buy from. I also had to get a Facebook a couple of years ago to keep up to date with shows however despicable I found that. I keep thinking haha shows are over time to delete this but it's such an entrenched part of "the scene" it's inescapable.
Also saw a few posts about people reluctant to talk about their interests in noise for fear of being shunned or tastes mocked. Hopefully that's only the case with the edgy PE guys marketing a scary nihilistic "brand". Maybe it's a symptom of being older but I've long ago given up caring what anyone else thinks of my tastes....
That being said I will also say that like New Forces mentioned above, I absolutely love Robedoor even if I haven't kept up with their output over the past few years but it's true, it's a seemingly rare thing to see that sort of thing discussed here.
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 04:56:52 PM
Or even established labels / artists who only announce their releases on IG because it's just easier.
It never was about how easy it was, just a means to put stuff out and connect with folks. Then again though I've never followed the old guard of "rules" to begin with regarding any of my work.
I mainly stopped posting about TCU/KOUFAR/etc releases on here 2 years ago because the engagement was little to none. Seemed like people here weren't interested and it felt like a waste of time. I'm sure this is the case with some other artists too who have found success on IG but none here.
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 04:56:52 PMI will however make the blunt statement that I think the fact that Instagram has taken over as such a major platform for communication and advertisement in the noise scene simply SHIT. This comes from my personal belief that Instagram (other social media platforms as well, but IG is the worst) are in general SHIT for the human being - on an individual psychological level and on a societal level. The superficiality, the narcissism, the vanity, the dumbing down of language inherently promoted by the platform, not to mention the corporate parasitism of your personal information... I find it simply sad and absurd that the majority of the world has accepted and embraced it and literally enslaved themselves with it (I'm not holier than thou - I've used these platforms in the past, and still do to some extent).
The fact that so many people are willing mix this pathetic attention whoring / guilty pleasure McDonald's platform that really only people aged 16-19 hoping to find sex/"someone who finally understands them" should get a pass for using, with UNDERGROUND NOISE CULTURE (a perhaps cringeworthy term but one I choose to wear on my sleeve, as it means the world to me) is truly shameful in my mind, and I do believe it has a tangible effect on the culture. I'm not sure I can describe objectively in what ways, but a banal example would be: labels who exist primarily on instagram posting hot batches designed to sell out in an hour, cool perfect aesthetics, but once you get the tapes they are shittily printed and the dubs SUCK (another thing no one in noise seems to care about these days - sound quality of physical media. As long as it's an "analog" format, the people buy it up and don't make a peep. And as long as the label sold it out and got enough FIREBALLS on their intagram post, they're happy too.) Or even established labels / artists who only announce their releases on IG because it's just easier. I totally get offering certain items to the dedicated few who are tapped in - when I came up in the Troniks board era, lots of things were announces exclusively there. It's just a CHOICE you have to make as an artist or label, which says a lot to me about your values and dedication, and I'm baffled by the CHOICE of so many to use a corporate data mining cellphone app responsible for the decline of civilization as the sole channel to promote things of the spirit, especially when there are so many other options!!!!
RANT over for now - I can and should be more specific about a lot of what I'm trying to say here, as I feel this is just the tip of the iceberg but please, tell me I'm not buggin????
I don't think there's really any way to reconcile data-mining mega corporation applications used to promoted hip lifestyles/ego stroking with underground culture of any kind. It can be seen with any genre nowadays. A fast food level of consumption. Sure, reverting back to the days of paper catalogs, tape trading, and pen pals is not a realistic option that many people will entertain, but are we always supposed to settle for lowest common denominator options? Whatever is easiest is always the method used? Like anything this is not black and white. There are fine individuals who align themselves with the underground who use social media. For the most part, however, it is goofy at best and corrosive at worst.
Quote from: holy ghost on June 27, 2020, 05:46:26 PM
depend on it for keeping up to date with a lot of releases coming out.
Yes, that's the dilemma, and why I also lurk on IG occasionally in order to not miss important things. It's a vicious cycle, but it doesn't justify the shift, it's just accepting and moving with the shift.
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 06:22:27 PM
are we always supposed to settle for lowest common denominator options?
That's exactly my point, what I think we all should ask ourselves, not just in the context of the noise scene, but in our personal lives as well.
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 06:22:27 PM
There are fine individuals who align themselves with the underground who use social media.
Absolutely, and that's what I find such a shame.
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 04:56:52 PM
.... I feel this is just the tip of the iceberg ...????
Seems maybe? Frans was beefing about Red Bull & its sponsorship, ( Merzbow, Prurient, Pharmakon and more.) -a unilever company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilever#Environmental_record...
I'd genuinely be interested in thoughts on this - is using Facebook / IG the tip, and one response is to embrace it, accelerationism...
Sorry I don't really know how to do this so I'm replying 3 times in a row:
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 27, 2020, 05:49:18 PM
Seemed like people here weren't interested and it felt like a waste of time.
I don't think this specific forum should be the be-all-end-all way to share and discuss information, but I think we have options and need to be purposeful and decisive in designing "the kind of world we want to live in" so to speak, and rejecting that shit should be on the top of the list.
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 06:48:54 PM
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 06:22:27 PM
are we always supposed to settle for lowest common denominator options?
That's exactly my point, what I think we all should ask ourselves, not just in the context of the noise scene, but in our personal lives as well.
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 06:22:27 PM
There are fine individuals who align themselves with the underground who use social media.
Absolutely, and that's what I find such a shame.
I agree. In my day to day experiences I have found that I have an overwhelmingly negative view when it comes to social media compared to most other people, and I find it quite bizarre (perhaps not surprising) that it seems to have been embraced with open arms in underground circles. Perhaps what is even more frustrating for me is the lack of self reflection most people have in regards to their usage of such platforms. Seems like the prevailing attitude is just that this is the point that we have arrived at technologically/socially and it's to be accepted and embraced consciously or unconsciously. I can't control how others spend their time, but I have little interest in flooding my phone that I already spend enough time on with curated photographs of individuals trying to construct a persona or impress others. I will always take artists and musicians more seriously who find other methods to promote their work or simply let it speak for itself through it's quality and their dedication.
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 06:41:40 PM
Quote from: holy ghost on June 27, 2020, 05:46:26 PM
depend on it for keeping up to date with a lot of releases coming out.
Yes, that's the dilemma, and why I also lurk on IG occasionally in order to not miss important things. It's a vicious cycle, but it doesn't justify the shift, it's just accepting and moving with the shift.
I totally agree with you - while I find IG to be less "toxic" than Facebook or Twitter - generally I prefer seeing pictures of noise records and dogs and BBQ as opposed to endless political ranting and Russian bots - it's not ideal. However I am probably as reliant on email blasts/updates than Instagram for quickly buying super limited tapes that are going out of print in 15 minutes. As I think most people are saying "it is what it is".
I have also had to set reminders on my phone because I know some super hot tape is going to drop at a certain time on an Instagram page and there will be only 30 copies available. I don't love this. I'd love to say it's beneath me but sometimes that harsh tape is the only thing that will spark joy.....
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 07:09:28 PM
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 06:48:54 PM
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 06:22:27 PM
are we always supposed to settle for lowest common denominator options?
That's exactly my point, what I think we all should ask ourselves, not just in the context of the noise scene, but in our personal lives as well.
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 06:22:27 PM
There are fine individuals who align themselves with the underground who use social media.
Absolutely, and that's what I find such a shame.
I agree. In my day to day experiences I have found that I have an overwhelmingly negative view when it comes to social media compared to most other people, and I find it quite bizarre (perhaps not surprising) that it seems to have been embraced with open arms in underground circles. Perhaps what is even more frustrating for me is the lack of self reflection most people have in regards to their usage of such platforms. Seems like the prevailing attitude is just that this is the point that we have arrived at technologically/socially and it's to be accepted and embraced consciously or unconsciously. I can't control how others spend their time, but I have little interest in flooding my phone that I already spend enough time on with curated photographs of individuals trying to construct a persona or impress others. I will always take artists and musicians more seriously who find other methods to promote their work or simply let it speak for itself through it's quality and their dedication.
Can i just add that years ago releases for review tended to come with promo material, (back then called a press release) which was useful. This segued to Blogs, but now seems to give FB links. Which is OK if one is on facebook. And many Blogs seem often years out of date. - Might it be that FB's addictive power is that its seems to be a happening place? or is it a happening place?
Quote from: JLIAT on June 27, 2020, 07:24:13 PM
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 07:09:28 PM
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 06:48:54 PM
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 06:22:27 PM
are we always supposed to settle for lowest common denominator options?
That's exactly my point, what I think we all should ask ourselves, not just in the context of the noise scene, but in our personal lives as well.
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 06:22:27 PM
There are fine individuals who align themselves with the underground who use social media.
Absolutely, and that's what I find such a shame.
I agree. In my day to day experiences I have found that I have an overwhelmingly negative view when it comes to social media compared to most other people, and I find it quite bizarre (perhaps not surprising) that it seems to have been embraced with open arms in underground circles. Perhaps what is even more frustrating for me is the lack of self reflection most people have in regards to their usage of such platforms. Seems like the prevailing attitude is just that this is the point that we have arrived at technologically/socially and it's to be accepted and embraced consciously or unconsciously. I can't control how others spend their time, but I have little interest in flooding my phone that I already spend enough time on with curated photographs of individuals trying to construct a persona or impress others. I will always take artists and musicians more seriously who find other methods to promote their work or simply let it speak for itself through it's quality and their dedication.
Can i just add that years ago releases for review tended to come with promo material, (back then called a press release) which was useful. This segued to Blogs, but now seems to give FB links. Which is OK if one is on facebook. And many Blogs seem often years out of date. - Might it be that FB's addictive power is that its seems to be a happening place? or is it a happening place?
I honestly cannot understand the appeal of something like Facebook. And perhaps, to make a slightly different point, I find it ridiculous that the decline in zine/print media and the rise in internet usage/social media are just shrugged off. Where are all of those blog reviews and download links now? Expired or neglected in the dark corners of the internet. What cultural staying power does a Facebook update have? Yet there are many who still hold onto and "cherish" zines as they would records or tapes or CDs. Punk, metal, noise, etc. They have all gone this unfortunate route.
Quote from: NerveGas on June 27, 2020, 07:33:48 PM
I honestly cannot understand the appeal of something like Facebook.
I think we can all agree no one actually "likes" using Facebook at this point in time - specifically for UG people not like, my mom who fucking lives on facebook. But labels are forced to do it to move product, promoters are forced to do it to advertise shows. They've created it to be indispensable. I deleted mine around 2007-ish and it wasn't until I reactivated it in 2016-ish to keep up with shows and such as have a "page" for my band. Could I live without it? Sure, but I'd like to know the set times of that noisecore show that might happen next year so I can decide if I want to stay up until one AM on a Tuesday night.
I mean we all got used to PayPal and all kinds of other technological marvels to make our lives easier and it's pretty obvious those are also just as problematic as Facebook or Instagram.....
Quote from: holy ghost on June 27, 2020, 07:49:46 PM
But labels are forced to do it to move product, promoters are forced to do it to advertise shows. They've created it to be indispensable.
Are you sure that these labels are forced? Are you sure that an independent circles in industrial/noise music especialy, which are radical force against mainstream ways of culture, should adopt that mainstream's tools and methods in creating products and distrybuting them to consumers?
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 27, 2020, 08:19:24 PM
Quote from: holy ghost on June 27, 2020, 07:49:46 PM
But labels are forced to do it to move product, promoters are forced to do it to advertise shows. They've created it to be indispensable.
Are you sure that these labels are forced? Are you sure that an independent circles in industrial/noise music especialy, which are radical force against mainstream ways of culture, should adopt that mainstream's tools and methods in creating products and distrybuting them to consumers?
I think it depends in large part on the amount that you would like to sell. Truly underground labels can work, but you almost certainly will suffer financially as a result. I'm not saying that you have to make all of your decisions based on money, but it is a consideration nonetheless - even if you only want money to fund new releases.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on June 27, 2020, 08:51:48 PM
I think it depends in large part on the amount that you would like to sell. Truly underground labels can work, but you almost certainly will suffer financially as a result. I'm not saying that you have to make all of your decisions based on money, but it is a consideration nonetheless - even if you only want money to fund new releases.
My question concerned. mainly, to consider what kind of mission should exist in an independent circle. If publishers, artists are determinded on "suffer financially", any profits (will at least to cover costs of productions, and so on), should we consider themselves as "independent"? Only because of releasing music from out of mainstream? Ok, fuck a word "independent", what should be a main mission for such publisher?
Not without reason I ask about that. I am sured a source of "missing..." comes from this point among others.
Quote from: holy ghost on June 27, 2020, 07:49:46 PM
But labels are forced to do it to move product
This is not true at all. First of all, obviously no one is forced to use any of this stuff, but hyperbole aside, labels can function very well and sell plenty of stuff without it. Perhaps not "as much" or "as quickly" but that's also unsubstantiated. They might however be forced to sell their stuff based on other criteria than the fastfood mentality promoted by instagram.
There's no denying that these platforms make everything more convenient - from finding out about start times of shows, available new releases, to advertising to millions of people. They're also designed by very brilliant psychologists to addict a planet of lonely people by exploiting their primal psychological desires and insecurities with the primary goal of selling them shit. I get that pretty much all of us, myself included, fall victim to this on one level or another, but we should really resent this much more than we do, and when it comes to communicating/sharing/advertising something that transcends such banality (NOISE), I really wish it were rejected on a much wider scale and not just taken as "it is what it is." It's really not that hard, noise and life has gone on without instagram for a long time, and continues to do so.
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 04:56:52 PM
I will however make the blunt statement that I think the fact that Instagram has taken over as such a major platform for communication and advertisement in the noise scene simply SHIT. This comes from my personal belief that Instagram (other social media platforms as well, but IG is the worst) are in general SHIT for the human being - on an individual psychological level and on a societal level. The superficiality, the narcissism, the vanity, the dumbing down of language inherently promoted by the platform, not to mention the corporate parasitism of your personal information... I find it simply sad and absurd that the majority of the world has accepted and embraced it and literally enslaved themselves with it (I'm not holier than thou - I've used these platforms in the past, and still do to some extent).
RANT over for now - I can and should be more specific about a lot of what I'm trying to say here, as I feel this is just the tip of the iceberg but please, tell me I'm not buggin????
Yep, totally true. It's almost funny we are accepting a corporate platform that dictates how we communicate and behave with each other, yet many of us, yet many of these guys on Instagram sees us as a form of subversive culture. It doesn't make sense. How can you be subversive or underground and also be in front of the public mainstream? However, it being so inclusive also means not being on the platform is excluding a major part of your (potential) listeners, as there are very few (written) publications available, and even then it only speaks to a small portion of the crowd. And aren't we excluding all the young ones if we exclude the modern social platforms?
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 10:59:20 PM
I really wish it were rejected on a much wider scale and not just taken as "it is what it is." It's really not that hard, noise and life has gone on without instagram for a long time, and continues to do so.
Yes it is hard, because you will lose listeners and it's so damn easy to communicate with people you've never heard off, meaning there is very little 'legwork' to do and everything moves pretty easy if you gain traction. But even before that, I don't think most even consider questioning usage of Instagram, but only see it as the next internet platform.
I also think this discussion very much so hold up for the Discogs platform, although on a different level. If every record ever released is in plain sight for everybody,and 99% can be bought on the same platform with a few mouse clicks, it means there are no obscure records anymore, or hardly so. A major loss for the mystification of weird recordings. A damn shame. But it's also damn handy to use so no one is going to attack it. What are you gaining except for a few internet cheers?
But yeah, it's very good to be critical, but if only a few are listening you are only making it hard for yourself, moral ramifications aside.
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 10:59:20 PMThis is not true at all. First of all, obviously no one is forced to use any of this stuff, but hyperbole aside,
Yes, "forced" was not intended to be taken literally. But I think for a lot of labels who may not have the "social capital" to move product quickly or labels that have pressed vinyl records for the first time that they spent an arm and a leg on they may feel like they have to do it just to keep themselves afloat. There seems to be such an oversaturation of product out there things may get lost in a wash of hype, forum messages and email. I don't think it's unreasonable to say there's 10x the amount of projects (and by default, physical media) out there that there were decade ago. Maybe I'm wrong and using these platforms just makes people hyper aware of everything out there?
This all being said I don't use Facebook to hype a product so I see both sides of this and I'm certainly not championing it. I feel the same way about PayPal fees, bandcamp fees etc which are less "social" but certainly just as odious, if not more? But PayPal has made itself so indispensable you can't even imagine life without it. It just doesn't have that sting of shame that Facebook does.
I think most of us here are old enough to remember "the good old days" of sending money orders and hidden cash in the mail (or even - calling Relapse and them taking your order over the phone) - it sucked large and the modern conveniences have made things so much less of a challenge.
fuck these new instagram only labels. make 30 copies and tell all their friends when it drops in private. then their tape sells out in mere minutes. cut to a month later and they do a photo shoot of the oh so rare tape to a sea of "HOW TO COP?"
where is the pride in ones work they want people to be able to obtain the music??
I guess to be clear, what I'm really talking about is exclusively using instagram to promote or announce things. In that case, it's not about reaching "as many listeners as possible", it's about lazily reaching a certain audience - namely those who have smartphones and fuck with instagram. I'm not suggesting making things intentionally difficult or obscure. I'm not saying the only real way to eat is to grow your own vegetables, hunt your own food and cook it over a wood fire. But I would assert, without even needing to rationalize or justify why, that eating real home cooked food most of the time is the way to go. Maybe eating McDonalds (Instagram) once in a while too, but if you're drinking that Huel powder for all your meals, you've lost me.
Quote from: WCN on June 28, 2020, 01:16:43 AM
I guess to be clear, what I'm really talking about is exclusively using instagram to promote or announce things.
This I agree with 100% - and to be clear I don't think we're arguing here at all or at least I'm not trying to be argumentative - and I think part of this argument is not entirely the social media platform but the intentionally limiting of things to create a "buzz" that often accompanies it. Obviously it's impossible to estimate how many copies you can move and no one wants to be sitting at home with a spare bedroom full of unsold harsh noise tapes but yeah, where there's a mad scramble to buy that oh so limited new tape and there's 15 copies of something 100+ people are going to want that just seems so trashy to me, like are you going for the maximum follower count or are you releasing something because you're passionate about it?
I once had a FB account. It was easy to understand this thing consumes my time without offering anything back, but not so easy to delete my account. At least i was resisting to go with the 'flood' , to join Twitter , IG , who knows what platform tomorrow ... Thanks to the guys who reported me and my account needed ID for reactivation. It was what i needed, a push out. And never looked back. The only thing i may miss is the not-so-frequent posts of 4-5 people that their taste i appreciate. But i can do without it in order to avoid an ocean of worthless, meaningless shit.
You know what ? I dont think that i dont use social media led me to miss any important or rare release i needed. Curious what's this the so important , so 'hot' limited release that in order to not miss it you tolerate all this shit. You say it's shit, i agree. 'To not miss that release' sounds like a cheap excuse to me, to yourself. Truth is it's addictive. So if that helps anyone, my experience is that you wont miss anything at all ! Just shut it down, if you see it as a problem.
Bands / Labels : I dont get the concept of 'promotion' , really. The only thing that really promotes you is your 'product' . Do you think you sell copies cause of social media spamming / advertisement ? Maybe once. If your product is not worthy, if you are delivering bad music, bad dubs etc. you wont go far longer than the 20-30 fools [how many?] that bite the bait and they have created a micro-hype for themselves only, that has nothing to do with music or even the 'bigger scene' ! - If your product is worthy, a blogspot page, a newsletter, an announcement are enough. Send your demo / a sample to labels and distros. Dont worry, if you are good you will be noticed sooner or -not so much- later.
What am i trying to say here ? That, as others said too, social media / bandcamp etc. ARE NOT the necessary evil ! Evil maybe, depending how to use them. Necessary, definetely not !
Quote from: Theodore on June 28, 2020, 03:23:11 AM
Bands / Labels : I dont get the concept of 'promotion' , really. The only thing that really promotes you is your 'product' . Do you think you sell copies cause of social media spamming / advertisement ? Send your demo / a sample to labels and distros. Dont worry, if you are good you will be noticed sooner or -not so much- later.
What am i trying to say here ? That, as others said too, social media / bandcamp etc. ARE NOT the necessary evil ! Evil maybe, depending how to use them. Necessary, definetely not !
I share your opinion. People forgot what was International Cassette Network which offered altarnate way of distributing records. Publishers (including me) forgot that an "independent" circle must change a paradigm relation between publisher and consumer, must change ethos of publisher, must change mainstream's tools and methods in creating products and distrybuting them to consumers. Building anything on rotten and detrimental fundaments is a way to nowhere.
So some use FB, IG, Paypal as necessary evils, whilst others see it as an evil to be avoided. I haven't read anyone saying its a great vehicle for promotion and selling merchandise. (I''m not). My question re multinational mega industry sponsorship of Noise, Red Bull (with which Frans DeWard was critical) went unanswered. There is obviously in the Arts / Humanities often a left wing critique of Capitalism, hence the problem of using such resources. (Easy to avoid critique by 'ends justifies means' – or more recently glib irony – like the K foundation burning £1 million...) And those who do could be criticised for using terms like 'independent' and 'underground' when they are – in using these – not. (or am I saying that is wrong – it is possible to become self sufficient- drop out, go off the radar – but why?) OK, Art, western art from when the term 'Artist' became used, Artist rather than craftsman, Artist as in the idea of the person of Genius having something special to bring, to make, began in the Renaissance. You know Michelangelo, Raphael, Da Vinci and the others. How, and why? Funded by the Medici family, a ruthless bunch of bankers. (the scene from the third man and cuckoo clock). No different in music, but with the 'Artist' the tune was not decided by the paymaster. Does anyone here think the (their) music should be dictated by others? There is a lot of history here, Van Gough signed his pictures 'Vincent' because he thought Americans (potential buyers – though he sold nothing) couldn't pronounce Van Gough, but Impressionism sold well in the USA, unlike Europe's more conservative tastes. Famous scandals regarding Rothko and his gallery, and of course the C.I.A.s support of 'Modern Art' during the cold war. (Stockhausen did well). My point. I have non.
Or maybe this, doesn't everyone (most) justify what they do?
bad (adj.) c. 1200, "inferior in quality;" early 13c., "wicked, evil, vicious," a mystery word with no apparent relatives in other languages.
"Not an individual endowed with good will and a natural capacity for thought, but an individual who does not manage to think either naturally or conceptually. Only such an individual is without presuppositions. Only such an individual effectively begins and effectively repeats." - Giles Deleuze, Difference and Repetition, Continuum 1994 p. 166.
"I'm Bad!" - Michael Jackson -1987.
Quote from: JLIAT on June 28, 2020, 10:08:17 AM
So some use FB, IG, Paypal as necessary evils, whilst others see it as an evil to be avoided. I haven't read anyone saying its a great vehicle for promotion and selling merchandise. (I''m not). My question re multinational mega industry sponsorship of Noise, Red Bull (with which Frans DeWard was critical) went unanswered. There is obviously in the Arts / Humanities often a left wing critique of Capitalism, hence the problem of using such resources. (Easy to avoid critique by 'ends justifies means' – or more recently glib irony – like the K foundation burning £1 million...) And those who do could be criticised for using terms like 'independent' and 'underground' when they are – in using these – not. (or am I saying that is wrong – it is possible to become self sufficient- drop out, go off the radar – but why?) OK, Art, western art from when the term 'Artist' became used, Artist rather than craftsman, Artist as in the idea of the person of Genius having something special to bring, to make, began in the Renaissance. You know Michelangelo, Raphael, Da Vinci and the others. How, and why? Funded by the Medici family, a ruthless bunch of bankers. (the scene from the third man and cuckoo clock). No different in music, but with the 'Artist' the tune was not decided by the paymaster. Does anyone here think the (their) music should be dictated by others? There is a lot of history here, Van Gough signed his pictures 'Vincent' because he thought Americans (potential buyers – though he sold nothing) couldn't pronounce Van Gough, but Impressionism sold well in the USA, unlike Europe's more conservative tastes. Famous scandals regarding Rothko and his gallery, and of course the C.I.A.s support of 'Modern Art' during the cold war. (Stockhausen did well). My point. I have non.
Or maybe this, doesn't everyone (most) justify what they do?
bad (adj.) c. 1200, "inferior in quality;" early 13c., "wicked, evil, vicious," a mystery word with no apparent relatives in other languages.
"Not an individual endowed with good will and a natural capacity for thought, but an individual who does not manage to think either naturally or conceptually. Only such an individual is without presuppositions. Only such an individual effectively begins and effectively repeats." - Giles Deleuze, Difference and Repetition, Continuum 1994 p. 166.
"I'm Bad!" - Michael Jackson -1987.
I think when there were some large sponsorships with noise artists a lot of the response was- Good, these people who have made music I liked are getting money.
I think you are bringing in the idea of 'high society' vs underground art. personally I don't want to grant a company like redbull any merit, sort of like Oskar's idea that IG is a cringed at platform. But you can take rebull's money if they want to act like they support the underground, why not. Same goes for Instagram.
It is not really the same thing as bankers funding painters and sculptures, except maybe from the artists perspective, if they take something like that on but I don't think so!
Social media is certainly a place where people's needs and desires are exploited for market research and implementation. The less you play into it however, I do not think much of you is scathed. No smartphone, no buying everything you need online, clickbait etc. It really is sort of a 'spiritual realm' or spiritual void,
It is more the power you give it more it can be depressing. More of a Thee Psychic Bible look at the internet than a 'punk rock' mindset. Why give this shit the status of 'evil'???? its more pathetic, not worthy of such a term. Like some satanic panic - oh my god paypal is the devil!!! In terms of class struggle, yes maybe it is evil, but releasing a noise tape, I don't give a shit.
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 07:05:39 PM
Sorry I don't really know how to do this so I'm replying 3 times in a row:
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 27, 2020, 05:49:18 PM
Seemed like people here weren't interested and it felt like a waste of time.
I don't think this specific forum should be the be-all-end-all way to share and discuss information, but I think we have options and need to be purposeful and decisive in designing "the kind of world we want to live in" so to speak, and rejecting that shit should be on the top of the list.
Morality interests me little with this.
Im proud of me and my bandmates success with it. Like I mentioned earlier, never fit in that well in one form so we made it work another way. I think its fascinating how my current fan base doesn't exist on this forum but it does on IG. To say that its not real, well then my guy I don't know how to explain all that expensive modular gear I got these days.
I'd rather dominate then be moral in the shadows living by a code thats looking to be outdated.
Is this still on topic?
I remember when Bastard Noise took some heat for being at some Relapse show that had big sponsorship. Phil Easter, on the Tumorlist, and of Stone Glass Steel, used to be loud and proud that he wanted bigger monies involved in experimental music. He didn't see it as a sell out, but as an indication of success and good artists shouldn't have to starve in this community. You know, a just reward and the means to get even more and greater things created. That's absolutely not verbatim and not the type of words he used. It's been a long time now, but I do remember him adamantly advocating for "give us the money!" The end would have justified the means of Paypal/social media, at least if I remember the argument some-what accurately. You work with the tools at hand and don't get bogged down in the rigmarole. Not sure how fees would have played into it all. Yeah, definitely no longer on topic.
I remember Ben/Zabriskie Point talking about how they used to have these mail bags you could stuff full and pay like $3 to ship internationally from the USA. I can't remember what class of mail that was called. He'd jam hundreds of CDs in those bags for trade and pay almost nothing to ship them. I remember being jealous, and we were only paying like $3 to ship 5 or 10 7"s. A different time. Different tools. Always changing.
Social media changed this culture, but I'm not sure it is robbing it of anything. Just different. Maybe.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 28, 2020, 06:18:56 PM
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 07:05:39 PM
Sorry I don't really know how to do this so I'm replying 3 times in a row:
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 27, 2020, 05:49:18 PM
Seemed like people here weren't interested and it felt like a waste of time.
I don't think this specific forum should be the be-all-end-all way to share and discuss information, but I think we have options and need to be purposeful and decisive in designing "the kind of world we want to live in" so to speak, and rejecting that shit should be on the top of the list.
Morality interests me little with this.
Im proud of me and my bandmates success with it. Like I mentioned earlier, never fit in that well in one form so we made it work another way. I think its fascinating how my current fan base doesn't exist on this forum but it does on IG. To say that its not real, well then my guy I don't know how to explain all that expensive modular gear I got these days.
I'd rather dominate then be moral in the shadows living by a code thats looking to be outdated.
That last sentence is definitely the most intense language I've ever seen used to describe having an instagram account.
Quote from: Duncan on June 28, 2020, 07:03:30 PM
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 28, 2020, 06:18:56 PM
Quote from: WCN on June 27, 2020, 07:05:39 PM
Sorry I don't really know how to do this so I'm replying 3 times in a row:
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 27, 2020, 05:49:18 PM
Seemed like people here weren't interested and it felt like a waste of time.
I don't think this specific forum should be the be-all-end-all way to share and discuss information, but I think we have options and need to be purposeful and decisive in designing "the kind of world we want to live in" so to speak, and rejecting that shit should be on the top of the list.
Morality interests me little with this.
Im proud of me and my bandmates success with it. Like I mentioned earlier, never fit in that well in one form so we made it work another way. I think its fascinating how my current fan base doesn't exist on this forum but it does on IG. To say that its not real, well then my guy I don't know how to explain all that expensive modular gear I got these days.
I'd rather dominate then be moral in the shadows living by a code thats looking to be outdated.
That last sentence is definitely the most intense language I've ever seen used to describe having an instagram account.
It's very Nietzschean (artist as overman) - but i guess Nietzsche never got around to opening an account ;-)
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 28, 2020, 07:01:49 PM
Is this still on topic?
Kind of, it got me thinking. One of the things missing is a 'lack'. Before cassette tape there was no easy way to release material. Vinyl mastering, plates and minimum pressing, - very expensive - same for CD. Then we had CDR, and of course the internet, mp3. Also recording was difficult multitracking and editing. So what we have today is the potential to release material for free, create and edit on cheap PCs, or even smartphones. And as for paypal, before to transfer money out of the UK the banks charged a hell of a lot.
So - we lack the poverty of resources.
Quote from: totalblack on June 26, 2020, 04:32:51 PM
Quote from: WCN on June 26, 2020, 04:27:02 PM
Please save this thread Mikko
Some moderation was done. Topic including the TG / Art / avantgarde / etc is found:
http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=10778.0
I know it starts kind of middle of nowhere, but some of early related posts were also related to this "Missing... but what" topic.
Some posts were deleted, which were no more relevant when topic has been splitted.
Quote from: W.K. on June 25, 2020, 10:38:41 PM
many (including me) see this more as a Freak Animal / though guy noise forum, not as a regular noise forum for everyone. But yes, voicing different views and opinions is a necessary one and also why everybody should do their own thing and not be limited by the imaginary boundaries of a genre or aesthetic created or envisioned by someone else.
I am familiar with this being quite common view, although I don't necessarily see it would have to be so.
To my knowledge, there are lots of people who appreciate the "dark side of noise" (so to say)- on level of admiring work of artists etc, but at this moment absolutely hesitate to discuss of it in public, due not wanting it to surface in form of screen captures and gossip even years later. They rather opt private message groups with people they know, than public discussion. It is of course good way too, but may reduce the dissemination of information. All that knowledge and information that could have resulted even interesting printed zine, will disappear. Does it really matter - is of course different debate.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 26, 2020, 03:27:49 AM
Instead of engagement on here we have people who basically await the "leaders" to make topics and then they discuss them.
Which is partially true and also unfortunate. I would certainly like to see topics like "best chocolate monk releases", "recommended Tomutonttu albums" or such, emerge. There is absolutely nothing that stops opening new topics on other things than so called tough guy noise. It was original intent of SI to try merge the splintered and fragmented things, to be the "scene" where
Sudden Infant & Genocide Organ would co-exist side by side, so to say with using known names as example. While it seemed to be vaguely fruitful goal 10-15 years ago, I don't see potential for that anymore. At least not in wider scale. Locally and in some other small framing, this of course comes out naturally.
As example of something good, there is FB group "Noise now playing". Some of the same things I post there, I re-post in SI playlist topic. That platform allows entirely different kind of possibilities. Most of all pictures and casual short comments, that are good on post comments, but would be awful distractions within forum discussions. Being spam free, self promotion free, and drama escalates only rarely (as far as I know), I like it. This also underlines that I do not claim or even intent SI forum to be the "main hub of noise". It would be great if there would be growing number of other forums or good discussion groups. Network is ideal. One chooses where to read and write, and cross-over of audience without doubt happens. It's the network that builds the "scene", not one place alone.
I agree with one of the first posts in the thread regarding the use of streaming platforms such as and especially Bandcamp. It is starting to become more common to see entire releases uploaded months ahead of any physical release and in some cases there isn't a physical release. I think such platforms can be useful when using it to host preview tracks for upcoming releases, but to the aforementioned practice seems like such a bastardization of the artistic process. I can't fathom putting months of energy into material only to lazily click "upload". The art and packaging is as much of a statement as the audio. This trend is very much indicative of high time preference.
This all leads to something I think is "missing" in not just industrial/noise, but music/art in general - mystique. With the advent and acceleration of the internet + social media, the wall between artist and art has been eroded. Nothing is mysterious anymore and we are constantly the object and subject of overexposure. I don't really place blame on artists because this is something you have to very consciously avoid in order to maintain even a fraction of the mystique that projects enjoyed in the past. Everyone and everything has a face now. You know the intentions, politics, lifestyle, etc. of X artist. Whereas art in the past represented some sort of hidden and exaggerated id of the ego, can you still say that now? Or does the artist's exploration of transgression or extremity seem like a facade now when you know they are a tolerant individual with all the right beliefs held by our all pervasive progressive order? It's akin to breaking the fourth wall when you have black metal artists come out to say "black lives matter". Say what you will of a project like Heretic Grail churning out five releases a month, but I think the approach of this project was admirable. It exemplified the mystique I'm alluding to. And to be clear, I'm not necessarily referring to anonymity.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 28, 2020, 06:18:56 PM
Morality interests me little with this.
Well it's an inherently moral discussion, so if that's your moral position on it, then you're doing right by you and there's little to discuss. I do think you're selling yourself short by saying no one "here" is interested in your work and that your audience exists exclusively on instagram. I also think it's great to make money off of one's work, so if you've been able to make some good cash, then more power to you. Still, what you've described here is a far-cry from "domination" as an artist by any definition in my mind.
Quote from: sunandsteel on June 28, 2020, 09:03:42 PM
I agree with one of the first posts in the thread regarding the use of streaming platforms such as and especially Bandcamp. It is starting to become more common to see entire releases uploaded months ahead of any physical release and in some cases there isn't a physical release. I think such platforms can be useful when using it to host preview tracks for upcoming releases, but to the aforementioned practice seems like such a bastardization of the artistic process. I can't fathom putting months of energy into material only to lazily click "upload". The art and packaging is as much of a statement as the audio. This trend is very much indicative of high time preference.
My perspective on this is fairly subjective but platforms like Bandcamp have actually allowed me to resume listening to new noise and experimental music after a lengthy hiatus. Personally I'm much more interested in the audio content than the art and packaging, unless the art and packaging are quite special, which doesn't seem to be the case with the majority of releases. (I do have a thing for vinyl but I'd still rather have a digital album than a vinyl with boring or mundane art.)
More importantly, I've moved six times over the last decade and have basically lived out of two big suitcases for the last few years so I don't have the space to hoard physical releases, nor an interest in doing so. I appreciate that my circumstances are not common, but personally I'm happy these digital platforms are around - if I couldn't purchase music on them, I probably wouldn't be purchasing any music at all.
Quote from: WCN on June 28, 2020, 09:12:44 PM
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 28, 2020, 06:18:56 PM
Morality interests me little with this.
Well it's an inherently moral discussion, so if that's your moral position on it, then you're doing right by you and there's little to discuss. I do think you're selling yourself short by saying no one "here" is interested in your work and that your audience exists exclusively on instagram. I also think it's great to make money off of one's work, so if you've been able to make some good cash, then more power to you. Still, what you've described here is a far-cry from "domination" as an artist by any definition in my mind.
Maybe all the listeners who can't distinguish shitty dubs from decent ones moved exclusively to instagram and that's how he got so much modular gear...
Quote from: sunandsteel on June 28, 2020, 09:03:42 PM
I agree with one of the first posts in the thread regarding the use of streaming platforms such as and especially Bandcamp.
There isn't problem with "streaming platforms", FB and so on. It is only a tool such like other in everyday using. Problem is with human's mentality.
Quote from: sunandsteel on June 28, 2020, 09:03:42 PM
I don't really place blame on artists because this is something you have to very consciously avoid in order to maintain even a fraction of the mystique that projects enjoyed in the past.
Does lack of mystique come from technology? Technology isn't an artist, only a human.
A few separate topics:
The increased use of social media networks in noise\industrial and society overall is certainly a problem, and as helpful as the internet has been, it's been largely corrosive. I don't disagree with a lot of the complaints and resistance against platforms like facebook and instagram being used to promote music or art. It's also nothing new, I remember seeing noise labels and artists making myspace pages as early as 2004. Even labels like true force pain electronics used tumblr as a website replacement. The same concerns and complaints should be raised towards platforms like paypal, google\gmail\chrome, mailchimp, discogs, bigcartel, soundcloud, bandcamp, apple products etc.. in regards to data-mining and fast-food style consumption practices. Whether information like "people interested in noise and industrial music" may seem useless to major corporations, the data IS being used maliciously to raise capital for facebook, and others. I don't personally have any solution on how to move forward without all these platforms, other than returning to the old system of sending cash or money orders via mail only, or only using darknet marketplaces and crypto-currency. Neither of these are practical or desirable personally, and in the end, photos of these records and tapes will end up getting posted on instagram anyway, since probably 75%+ of people creating and collecting this stuff use these platforms. There's certainly lost magic looking back to days when you would send in email orders from distro lists, or having no samples to listen to, and blindly buying or trading for batches of releases based on descriptions or faith in the label alone. The same can be said for the brick and mortar record store that supports industrial and noise, something which isn't that common anymore. A lot of these locations rely on using these platforms to appeal to a wider audience to sell records and survive. It's true that it's possible to exist without using instagram, facebook, etc. but as was mentioned earlier- it often requires some sort of existing fanbase, network or social capital to do this. I personally use all of these platforms along with mailorder newsletters, physical flyer mailouts with orders, prioritizing copies going to brick and mortar record stores, ads in magazines, widespread distro, etc., in part because I think it's important to disseminate releases to as wide and disparate an audience as possible. Most social media platforms have become significantly worse over the last few years, and watching things degrade I've often regretted the amount that I use them. In the end things aren't black and white, and as mentioned there are ways to use them without completely giving up. There is a HUGE difference though between labels who exclusively use social media as a place to exist, tapes with garbage art limited 10 selling out in minutes to an audience of thousands who certainly don't seek out or support noise from other venues, or at all asides from a like. There's also not to be named raw black metal label posting LP pre-orders 6 months in advance, listing in terms and conditions that all emails would be ignored and senders banned, updates on pre-ordered records only via instagram. This I completely don't understand.
On the subject of print magazines becoming less and less common, let me rephrase that I don't think "it is what it is", ultimately I think it's a real tragic shift. I try to get 25-50 copies of each new issue of Noise Receptor and Special Interests in, and it takes ages to move them all, despite being most popular current zines. Newer zines are increasingly rare and are either in super low runs, have price points closer to books, or only pop out every few years. There's a a few new ones that have popped up in the last years (Nefarious Activities, Untitled) and I'm interested to see how these develop. Larger journals like ALAP were fantastic, and it's really unfortunate that the second issue never materialized. There should be more print documents of active noise and industrial culture, I encourage people to take initiative in starting them. I will say that facebook group "Noise Now Playing" is a refreshing new source of discourse, frequent posting of heavy hitting titles with discussion ranging from casual to deep, a lot of knowledgeable contributors with intense collections. Special Interests is currently the most active forum for noise activities, and unfortunately I doubt that there will be another one that will pop up, since user base of forums has been fading for years. Whenever new ones pop up, something happens after some time like admin forgets to pay fees and the whole thing gets deleted, or it just fades out and becomes useless or only full of spam posts. Troniks forum was obviously a fantastic resource, and I would love for something like that to exist again.
Redbull music academy and things like this- I don't think there is anything wrong with accepting money from these sources. I have had plenty of debates with friends about it, know some people who will scream bloody murder about how evil it is, sellout, etc.. A lot of these wailers in the end are unhappy they are not successful enough to be approached for this sort of opportunity, and declining it just gives someone else the chance to take it. For people who work endlessly dedicating their lives towards music and art, it's fine to take some occasional misguided corporate payout and actually make decent money for once. Is Redbull an evil company? personally I think almost certainly. But this weird advertising campaign can't be super successful or they wouldn't have discontinued it. I feel the same way towards government grants, residencies and state sponsored music festivals. It depends on your goals, if you want to be subversive, take whatever resources or weapons you have available to you.
I could mostly echo holy ghost's and W.K.'s sentiments here.
Something that I feel is different now than for example ten years ago is that since there really seems to not exist a good internet platform for reviews and not many message boards things feel a bit more consumerist with not too much written words on a lot of more underground stuff and people being vocal about being genuinely excited about music they listen to which I guess many still are. I'm curious to see the noise now playing group in regards to this.
As far as quality of music, the aforementioned New Boyfriends, Limbs Bin's Astray, the new Narcolepsia batch (especially K2 and VMS Elit) and the new Gnawed album, which to be fair I haven't heard since I'm waiting for a physical copy, have been released in a time frame of about a month with the exception of LB. That's quite many releases already for this year and I bet there's more. How many really great releases is it realistic to demand?
Quote from: totalblack on June 30, 2020, 12:13:42 AM
Redbull music academy and things like this- I don't think there is anything wrong with accepting money from these sources. I have had plenty of debates with friends about it, know some people who will scream bloody murder about how evil it is, sellout, etc.. A lot of these wailers in the end are unhappy they are not successful enough to be approached for this sort of opportunity, and declining it just gives someone else the chance to take it. For people who work endlessly dedicating their lives towards music and art, it's fine to take some occasional misguided corporate payout and actually make decent money for once. Is Redbull an evil company? personally I think almost certainly. But this weird advertising campaign can't be super successful or they wouldn't have discontinued it. I feel the same way towards government grants, residencies and state sponsored music festivals. It depends on your goals, if you want to be subversive, take whatever resources or weapons you have available to you.
I don't understand the sellout complaints either. If your project was consistent enough with their values for Redbull to want to support them, then I would hardly call it becoming a sellout. If someone changes their image, style, etc (only) in order to gain such support, then you are a sellout.
Imagine dissecting the business practices of a band like The Rolling Stones the same way people do for Bastard Noise or Hospital.
A couple things that have not been brought up, at least in this thread that I saw:
Ease of creating sound (someone maybe mentioned built-for-noise gear), mastering, editing, transferring files to label, label to manufacturer, the whole damn process
maybe people are not getting as bogged down and obsessed with the noise. It is too easy to get it released, in every step of the way. So it is presented as the final product, but there was no struggle to get it there.
There is no to little gamble releasing to digital format or to close group of Instagram followers.
Maybe this is a dumb realization for me since people have been talking about quality control for years, but it should be in this thread.
of course- but I put my soul into this release, or I used analog equipment! any such claim is suspicious. still you didn't have to snail mail everything and face an invisible audience or label, or your relation to a label is shallow due to ease of operation.
I could point to a lot of examples where use of analog is not quality of format per say but perversity of time and dedication heard in that recording. Isolation as opposed to exposure and the all seeing eye of corporate interest.
yeah yeah it is all person to person basis whatever.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 28, 2020, 08:16:41 PM
All that knowledge and information that could have resulted even interesting printed zine, will disappear. Does it really matter - is of course different debate.
I guess that's true to some point, but how many one here are still reading threads from ages ago? I guess you are able to see statistics and if you are looking for specific projects it's still valuable, but most information not printed down on tangible matter gets lost in the noise of the internet - even more so on social media platforms where it's more about the new thing that is being posted than on a more hierarchical structure like a forum that also functions a bit like an archival.
Quote from: Decrepitude on June 30, 2020, 01:34:56 AM
I could mostly echo holy ghost's and W.K.'s sentiments here.
I might have been a little bit to harsh to be honest and I take a little step back because I still like the Youtube platform despite all it's shortcomings, censorship and those that are uploading music that is still for sale. Never liked the DVD format for some reason (maybe because I don't own a TV), but online video platforms are A OK for me. And in reality, you could not use an commercial e-mail provider ans set-up your own mail sever, not use social media and not even use PayPal.....but self-hosting your video's, however technically possible, is not really you want to fuck with. It's complex and expensive.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on June 30, 2020, 01:41:21 AM
Quote from: totalblack on June 30, 2020, 12:13:42 AM
Redbull music academy and things like this- I don't think there is anything wrong with accepting money from these sources. I have had plenty of debates with friends about it, know some people who will scream bloody murder about how evil it is, sellout, etc.. A lot of these wailers in the end are unhappy they are not successful enough to be approached for this sort of opportunity, and declining it just gives someone else the chance to take it. For people who work endlessly dedicating their lives towards music and art, it's fine to take some occasional misguided corporate payout and actually make decent money for once. Is Redbull an evil company? personally I think almost certainly. But this weird advertising campaign can't be super successful or they wouldn't have discontinued it. I feel the same way towards government grants, residencies and state sponsored music festivals. It depends on your goals, if you want to be subversive, take whatever resources or weapons you have available to you.
I don't understand the sellout complaints either. If your project was consistent enough with their values for Redbull to want to support them, then I would hardly call it becoming a sellout. If someone changes their image, style, etc (only) in order to gain such support, then you are a sellout.
Isn't it obvious or am I missing the sarcasm from you? I don't mind corporate investment in noise, I think it would be really funny, and Red Bull giving platform to a few noise and experimental artist is certainly a beauty to behold in it being quite strange, but also very ironic?
1) Punk and underground ethos not wanting to fuck with corporations and people making money behind their backs (or that's how one can feels feel at least). Let's be honest, most of the underground is left-wing and likes to talk about it's anti-commercial values.
2) Corporations never being part of the culture, and despite giving money to a few artist not being interested in investing in the culture ). And let's be honest, if there wasn't money here to be made, they wouldn't care (although I guess Redbull has always been taking a risk in investing in off-mainstream things like extreme sports and lifestyle. Yes it's part of their brand, but they could have been making safer investments quite easily. And I guess with Redbull there are a few guys in the marketing department that are fans of noise and are able to push their personal taste to an extend, I say power to them!).
3) Redbull being a shitty drink causing all kinds of health problems and diseases. Also, more fat people, yay. It does bring interesting content for a new release though.
Do I think most people not liking Redbull will accept a cheque if they could play or do a talk for them? absolutely. You are gaining a possible new audience and money, hell yeah.
And in regards with Merzbow an Redbull I do think it's very strange! Him being a moralistic vegan straightedge wanting to save the planet, how does that align with the Redbull brand? Money talks over values? Willing to bat an eye for once? Are his values less important than he makes it out on his art? Not caring, or is he just being pragmatic?
Quote from: Strangecross on June 30, 2020, 03:47:11 AM
A couple things that have not been brought up, at least in this thread that I saw:
Ease of creating sound (someone maybe mentioned built-for-noise gear), mastering, editing, transferring files to label, label to manufacturer, the whole damn process
maybe people are not getting as bogged down and obsessed with the noise. It is too easy to get it released, in every step of the way. So it is presented as the final product, but there was no struggle to get it there.
But is it? It's easier, sure. But it's still an investment in time, money and effort it's a lot easier just not to be involved in the process and only listen to noise. Netlabels, those where easy, CDr's, sure, those where easy when they became affordable and slow 4x write speeds increased, but cassette releases still take a lot of work.
But is it? Despite being it easier to work on stuff than the past (possibly, I don't know), I still work months on a release, only to be not fully happy with it and shelving it as an unfinished project on the computer or dub it cassette tape and label it as 'unfinished, work for later'. But maybe that's just me.
If I'm going too much off-topic please say so.
"Let's be honest, most of the underground is left-wing and likes to talk about it's anti-commercial values."
And can i suppose justify being funded by governments and multi-national companies... for the ends justifies the means...
But 'To Dine with the Devil?'
"Red Bull GmbH (German pronunciation: [ʁɛt ˈbʊl]) is an Austrian company known for its range of energy drinks, the manufacturer owned by the British-Dutch company Unilever."
"In 2014, Unilever was criticised by Greenpeace for causing deforestation."
" In 2008, Greenpeace UK[139] criticised the company for buying palm oil from suppliers that were damaging Indonesia's rainforests"
"In 2019, Unilever was cited by BreakFreeFromPlastic as one of the top ten global plastic polluters."
"For years, Unilever purchased paper for its packaging from Asia Pulp & Paper, the third-largest paper producer in the world, which was labeled as a "forest criminal" "
"In 2001, a mercury thermometer factory operated by the Indian subsidiary of Unilever in the South Indian hilltown of Kodaikanal was shut down by state regulators after the company was caught for dumping toxic mercury wastes in a densely populated part of town. By the company's own admissions, more than 2 tonnes of mercury were discharged into Kodaikanal's environment. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilever#Environmental_record
I read most of the thread. A few points. I agree with anything Total Black / MIkko wrote.
- Social media. I have been using them since their dawn. Myspace was an excellent replacement from expensive website, a great way to promote and discover new sounds, and dating. I joined FB because it was a job tool but I closed it as soon I saw what today is normal: general dumbness spreading background noise, stalking, etc. I lived without social media until many people stopped answering emails, so I joined the Instagram (@anticitizen) that surely helped to sell a few copies, contact the lazy bastards that are unable to use outlook properly and collect an enormous amount of visual inspiration. I'm not against social media, I just think people should get a license before using that with an IQ test. But this applies to society in general.
- "Inclusive scene", despite being a promoter of what Mikko described as "the dark side of noise", I keep talking and interaction with anybody who doesn't act like a rude prick to me. There are numberless of pro BLM who used the black square who buy and praise UNPC bands. It's not a problem, it's like me being straight edge and having a special interest in human trafficking and yet getting off with gangsta hip hop glorying drugs and pimping? Incoherence? No, just a person has many faces and different sensibilities separating what is my vision of the world and purchase of creative artifacts. As long you don't behave like an infamous underground searchlight wanna-be like WMTN or Grufties gegen rechts attacking weird looking people at random (especially people who are NOT REALLY POLITICAL), fine by me. But I will not be very kind with people who writes me in private about specific topics and bands and then shun these and myself and place like to articles written about people above. I still think a GO/Sudden infant gig is ideally possible, but not sure SI fans would feel comfortable.
- Funding and sponsorship. Let the cash flow in, fuck pauperism I'd rather play with somebody who offer me full "bed and blow job" service and the possibility to interact with a wider group of people, experience new value and have a decent sound, than to be concerned of getting hepatitis for unavailability of a decent restroom. Corporations own the car you drive, the computer you use and even the production platforms of vinyl and cd raw sources, so unless we start making vinyl from thin air we are part of it. The definition of sell-out to me is somebody who sells his work to the market changing or toning down their attitude and message to make the market happy. I don't see any of us doing that even in the event somebody collaborates with artier environments.
- DIY still counts to me because I enjoy a lot doing my stuff in my limited time left for music. But it's a way of acting not a value itself. No risk to evolve from this stage because my sounds and visual are not of public interest and so are most of us. There have been exceptions but I totally have respect for them.
- Fanzines - The death of printed paper is really sad to me. I keep buying zines, although I stopped reading reviews unless I know the reviewer taste. I'd love to do mine, but I'd get bored immediately and hate myself.
- NETWORK - This is what still makes me excited about all this. Although I no longer trading distro stuff, is the best way to feel the human aspect in this that makes me know I have friends to count on and do stuff with. I no longer go to gig to my tinnitus, but having people visiting or getting in touch from around the world keeps me want to do stuff also for the others.
My problem with social media is more about humanity at large, as I see it as total poison to the collective and individual psyche, aside from the data mining issue. (The data mining issue is also HUGE, but like it has been mentioned by others here, this is happening with nearly everything we touch, so I don't have the illusion that not using instagram or whatever for noise makes any difference in this regard). It's about the behavior patterns it trains and reinforces, and I wish more people rejected it, especially in the "underground/noise/industrial/freethinking/artist" whatever community, but I've ranted enough about that. I suspect the majority who use these things feel this too to some degree, so maybe the pendulum will swing back in the near future.
It's really all about the networking and exchanging with dedicated fanatical people, and that's going pretty well lately, regardless of platform. I just love a good email. I admit the "Noise Now Playing" private FB group has been fun since I discovered it a couple months ago, kind of like the Playlist thread here but with pictures and more activity. More printed media would be great - makes me want to have a crack at something. Maybe just interviews with artists that I've worked with through WCN over the years. Wouldn't it be great if the Troniks forum were published as a big fat book, like just a text only manuscript? I'm often end up thinking back on something I read there and wishing I could return to it. Phil or Greh, if you're reading this, do these pages still exist somewhere?
Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
Phil or Greh, if you're reading this, do these pages still exist somewhere?
it was completely purged. iirc Tim downloaded a portion before it was fulled expunged but didn't even get half.
Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
My problem with social media is more about humanity at large, as I see it as total poison to the collective and individual psyche, aside from the data mining issue. (The data mining issue is also HUGE, but like it has been mentioned by others here, this is happening with nearly everything we touch, so I don't have the illusion that not using instagram or whatever for noise makes any difference in this regard). It's about the behavior patterns it trains and reinforces, and I wish more people rejected it, especially in the "underground/noise/industrial/freethinking/artist" whatever community, but I've ranted enough about that. I suspect the majority who use these things feel this too to some degree, so maybe the pendulum will swing back in the near future.
Once again, I would agree. All criticisms or analysis of the role of corporations aside, social media simply seems to amplify/exploit already existing human tendencies and that's where the issue lies.
Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PMWouldn't it be great if the Troniks forum were published as a big fat book, like just a text only manuscript? I'm often end up thinking back on something I read there and wishing I could return to it. Phil or Greh, if you're reading this, do these pages still exist somewhere?
Youth Attack did this with the Jerkbooth books, and as much as those aren't of interest to me personally, it might be possible to gain access to some of the old posts via internet time machine
edit: I tried, it's excluded from internet time machine
Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
Wouldn't it be great if the Troniks forum were published as a big fat book, like just a text only manuscript?
This is probably the last thing on Earth that anyone needs.
Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PMPhil or Greh, if you're reading this, do these pages still exist somewhere?
Greh still has everything saved on his hard drive. I know several people also backed up large portions of the board and I'm sure someone here could provide those files.
Quote from: pureterror on July 01, 2020, 07:32:03 AM
Greh still has everything saved on his hard drive. I know several people also backed up large portions of the board and I'm sure someone here could provide those files.
Any idea why he is sitting on it? I think it's been established here for a while that nobody seems to have anything.
Probably due to all the hot gossip. I'm glad it's backed up though as I'm sure a university or library would find it worthwhile in years to come. There's certainly a solid book in there, but it would require some serious combing through.
A Troniks/Chondritic Sound recollections forum thread could be an entertaining read. One of the stories that I loved from it was this very troubled teenager who joined and started sharing videos of him making vocal noise screaming into his computer's microphone in his messy bedroom. RRRon sort of pulled him under his wing and gave him some encouragement (he may have even made a Recycled tape for his project?), and everyone else tried to offer him some genuine help and support too. He evidently had some serious emotional/personal problems though, and due to all the chaos in his home life, his parents in sheer desperation told him that they were going to send him off to military school - subsequently he disappeared from the forum. A few years later, he came back on the forum out of the blue to post about how joining the military was the BEST thing that could ever happen in his life. He gained discipline and earned a high rank/position (I think he ultimately got recruited into the Navy SEALs?), got to travel the world and do cool things in life that he never could have dreamed of, made lifelong friends and started a family. He shared some cool photos, thanked everyone who helped and encouraged him whilst he was still dabbling in noise, and then disappeared again. Very inspiring to read. I hope he's still keeping well wherever he is these days.
Quote from: theotherjohn on July 01, 2020, 01:04:32 PM
Probably due to all the hot gossip.
I understand this. More than a decade has passed since the forum started and for sure it will display lots of people not at their best. Stupid internet dramas that everyone is (hopefully) bigger than now and possibly feel embarrassed by. If someone who has those files feels that way though, they should delete them rather than keep them around with no intention of making it available. The value of the forum as a resource today is greater than whatever egos stand to get hurt.
Respectfully, I think a book would be very navel gazing and totally unworkable. I would just like to see it available in archival format online. More than anything else I'd most like to be able to revisit it to check out all the discussion and activity surrounding things I wasn't into or aware of then but am now. Tastes change and move on a lot, it'd be incredible to be able to go back with fresh eyes and ears.
BTW John, that guy was called ACT.
Quote from: theotherjohn on July 01, 2020, 01:04:32 PM
his parents in sheer desperation told him that they were going to send him off to military school - subsequently he disappeared from the forum.
It seems that a military school and being a profesional soldier can be motivation to avoid dreams about living in the noise (music).... I am an example who may deny such "negative motivation". I knew and loved noise/industrial music when I have studied in the military school, and I am die-hard fan of this kind of music/art by dint of being profesional soldier still. So, please, don't use such stereotypes and don't scare military young people here ;)
I assumed he disappeared temporarily from the forum more as a result of not having access to a computer or the internet whilst training in the military, gaining discipline and doing missions. This was pre-smartphone days. Ultimately he really was making some bad decisions early in his life so his parents chose wisely for him and his character I think. As for how deeply invested his interests in noise/industrial were, I can't comment any further as I didn't know him beyond what few posts I can sort of recall all these years later.
I don't have a problem with the military/army and the strong values it instills in young people that sets them up for life. Certainly, it's a better decision than studying a mickey mouse course in university.
Thanks for the info, Duncan. RRRon really was monumental in helping out young noise projects on that forum, especially with the Recycled tape invite he sent out. A much missed presence online these days.
I was listening today to 'Like A Frog In Winter' (2008, Hospital)
Here is something Fernow wrote about it from Soundohm:
I started putting this compilation together in 2004 while residing in providence. at that time the climate of noise was rather hi-fi, technological, and cold. This was the start of noise as entertainment rather than entertaining. personal communication became lost. noise became something clean. something stimulating.
in response i started putting together a list of new bands at the time that i felt represented a more psychological, minimal, dismal, and rejected feeling that to me was one of a fire place having smoldered out after a night of burning.
aside from the sound i wanted to see a return to the fetishistic and erotic attitude of noise... and a negative one at that.... again in response to what i saw as a call for positive noise.
I never took a lot of the hyperbole that came along with much prurient/hospital stuff very seriously and cannot speak to exactly what he is talking about in that era...but it's interesting to see what he thought was MISSING or changing at the time it got put together. It tells us a lot about various thought processes from not that long ago where some iteration of this same discussion was always being had - something was always better in the past for whatever reason, changes in attitude and approach seemed shitty at the time. Hell, I remember how much complaining there was on the troniks forum about how it exemplified the ruin cast over noise by the internet and here we are now reminiscing about that website and that era. I'm sure a lot of the positive/hifi/stimulating/entertainment noise he is harping on about there would be considered classic of its time by most at this stage. Maybe there will a similar discussion happening about how noise was talked about across social media in another 10 years?
Following this topic and doing some more digging I think its important to remember that it's still such a small subculture that it doesn't take very much to produce effects within it (that's my Bordieuian contribution to the critical theory sparked off by this thread). Some observations recently - the forum leader says a tape is the best ever made in Finland and it sells out instantly and people start talking about it. The Star Cassette put out by WCN gets described as 'weird' and this opinion is now repeated elsewhere, over on the facebook group the Wiese/Skin Graft cd is talked about as 'album of the year' and at least 5 over people repeat this sentence. I'm not criticising this nor am I saying it's untrue - I've listened to and really enjoyed every one of those releases - but these qualities are hard to quantify and could just as easily be argued against or at least elaborated up in each case - you rarely if ever see variable opinions on this level that add to the overall sense of artists and their work. Now that noise and it's miniscule audience are represented across fewer and fewer platforms this is more so the case than ever, though I do think this problem has always existed to some extent because each person will bring their own feelings and ideas to almost any noise release. Part of this is what has always made it such an attractive and interesting genre though.
A final note about the compilation itself, and this could just be my own nostalgia talking, but it definitely seems to represent an aspect of that approach I was discussing earlier with a bit more variation/less deliberate categorisation between artists and styles. Maybe it's each artist just following Dom's brief but it feels like a really cohesive, themed work where the value is about what each individual artist will bring rather than what stylistic camp they fall into. And it's subtley so too.
Quote from: Harvest on June 30, 2020, 10:01:00 PM
Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
Phil or Greh, if you're reading this, do these pages still exist somewhere?
it was completely purged. iirc Tim downloaded a portion before it was fulled expunged but didn't even get half.
Yeah I left it downloading overnight on a work computer but it was still going by the time they took it offline :D Never really even looked at it, probably a mess to even browse at all.
OH ok it's still on my google drive so here you all go:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B60DREpMDwUXQVctWE16bWxOQTA/view?usp=sharing
it's only like 170mb uncompressed so must be the tip of the iceberg, and presumably it's in reverse chronological order so mostly forumpocalypse shitposting + goodbyes ?.
ha, about 1/3 of it seems to be just copies of the login page as the download app tried to crawl stuff you can't see without an account. {-__-}
Yeaah the official archive needs putting on archive.org in some properly browsable/searchable form for posterity
Quote from: pureterror on July 01, 2020, 07:32:03 AM
Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
Wouldn't it be great if the Troniks forum were published as a big fat book, like just a text only manuscript?
This is probably the last thing on Earth that anyone needs.
At least one or two of the best threads. This worked pretty well https://www.amazon.co.uk/Im-Office-Worker-Michael-H%C3%A4ne/dp/1471627829
Apologies for the potential derail, I still need to get caught up with a few pages of this discussion, but-
Quote from: totalblack on June 26, 2020, 08:54:17 PM
The main thing that I've noticed in the last 15+ years is the fragmentation into micro-scenes and communities that wasn't as present before.
Funny but I think every single contributor to this thread (to the point quoted, above) has expressed these exact sentiments, starting with OP on out.
And funny as I tend to feel that this fragmentation derives in part from a prior sense that what had been missing was a pure intensity of focus on what was very precisely felt to be desired (at the given time).
So swings the pendulum.
No bullshit, just the very best harsh noise and nothing but harsh noise. For me in the early 90s statements of the kind were rare and refreshing because they seemed to be going against the perceived more diverse grain. Americanoise, fuck yeah. This was never to dis the diversity but to celebrate the fact that such a focused meeting of visions could even exist.
And as for the live venues. I think there are several currently present who would remember times when they felt lucky to have even a single noise act on the bill. And that in having a diversity of acts there was certainly no special sense of sharing of ideals. Fans of the one favored act would show up for their one favored act, and, as soon as that one favored act finished the venue would empty leaving the noise twat to play to the three stragglers on, consisting, typically, of friend, significant other, and local drunk who'd happened to have wandered in-
hey man, like, spare a couple bucks?All to say that perhaps noise (et al) has if anything been a victim of its own (marketing) success, perhaps exacerbated as most have suggested by the concurrent onlining of life the universe everything. But perhaps as much to suggest that what is missing is the sense that the messaging is still necessary.
Like, fuck. Message (long since) received.
Not that that will ever stop me.
Quote from: Duncan on July 01, 2020, 05:06:42 PM
Some observations recently - the forum leader says a tape is the best ever made in Finland and it sells out instantly and people start talking about it. The Star Cassette put out by WCN gets described as 'weird' and this opinion is now repeated elsewhere
[...]
And it's subtley so too.
I read and enjoyed (and value) your review of the Star tape but it's genuinely different to my (admittedly fuck'd) ear in a way that is purely to do with the sound. Subtley so but.
As far as The New Boyfriends. Compared with the previous Aprapat solo tapes, I'd say it was available for a remarkably long interval. By the time the recommendation dropped from Dear Leader, I honestly thought based on previous Aprapat experience that it were already long gone in any event.
Other than that, I'd agree that it's all pretty damn cozy and no worries there. Those rare times that it feels it is not are probably more a matter of one or another potential contributor not being inclined to enter their view on the subject.
That said, I'd love to get those original unredacted Troniks files.
THE BOOKS SHOULD NOT BURN.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 01, 2020, 06:25:21 PM
Quote from: Duncan on July 01, 2020, 05:06:42 PM
Some observations recently - the forum leader says a tape is the best ever made in Finland and it sells out instantly and people start talking about it. The Star Cassette put out by WCN gets described as 'weird' and this opinion is now repeated elsewhere
[...]
And it's subtley so too.
I read and enjoyed (and value) your review of the Star tape but it's genuinely different to my (admittedly fuck'd) ear in a way that is purely to do with the sound. Subtley so but.
As far as The New Boyfriends. Compared with the previous Aprapat solo tapes, I'd say it was available for a remarkably long interval. By the time the recommendation dropped from Dear Leader, I honestly thought based on previous Aprapat experience that it were already long gone in any event.
Hey, I'm prepared to be very wrong/lacking in deeper context regarding those examples - they're a dashed off way of saying that it simply doesn't take very many people sharing an opinion about something in this noise world of ours for the content of those opinions to stick within the wider 'community' and perhaps get applied to a project before the point of listening. Inevitable, simply because it's so small here.
Quoteone or another potential contributor not being inclined to enter their view on the subject.
Is the simple, basic nub of it. I do lament this because folks having something to say about the endless streams of content being produced in this whole subculture is what turns it into something beyond an artist just plugging away. I have long felt that noise could probably do with a whole lot more vocal fans who don't necessarily have a dog in the creative race themselves to contribute to these discussion and would perhaps build a more diverse discourse.
But yeah, no major issues with any of it - just some clunkily worded possible observations.
I acknowledge what Duncan says, but I don't know is this new observation of any kind or unusual at any level? Just acknowledging how it goes. My assumption is, that this would be the same or related what has been done in in underground or culture since forever. You know, reading a zine and then being certainly somehow effected by what it said. Making choices or purchase etc.
Some take it even as almost sole purpose. Noisextra. Who mentioned their idea of getting people excited to talk about noise and their favorites. Or talked by Sienko in Noisextra interview. Someone talking about noise, the sort of story telling of noise, indeed adds something into abstract. It can be the cover, titles, or anything related, but it may be also review one read, discussion one had. None of this means that one would be forced to buy, or forced to like and agree. It is often reminder, that beyond label hyperbole and desperate attempts to move product, there is also actual listeners who have barely anything to "gain" from praising item they like.
It is observation over many years, that when one guy says something, bunch of guys will respond. They may not start topic about "best Merzbow of 2020", but if someone starteded it and wrote compliments, you can bet that there will be handful who will agree or share their opinion of something else. I absolutely can not see what would be the negative in this. I don't see it as sign of any unhealthy herd mentality either. For me, it is how underground works. Network of some sort of associates/contacts who tell others what item rules and that they should check it out. They may also tell what is pretty sucky release and should not be the one you waste your last money. Should there be more people, who confidently voice their opinion on release? Perhaps, yes. For example Noisextra has underlined this to be one of the motivations. To get people to talk about noise and favorite recordings. Give others recommendations, without it being really for their own benefit.
What I do not particularly like, is that there is a level of dishonesty to be seen - perhaps even more so in "free digital music". Lets say, there is project that uploads material online. Their friend raves how great it is and how great these guys are. You go to listen, and without single doubt can conclude that what a waste of time. Utter garbage. You could be sure that if anyone was to be asked, would they buy this LP. Actually pay and hunt for recording, they would most likely conclude: hell no. And no amount of praise would change that.
So these kind of small talk/ass kissing between the friends, seems to me annoying. It is vastly different category (I'd define that as "social scene underground") than people hearing what they appreciate, which turns out to be so good they feel they barely could live without it in shelves, hah.. (which is the more traditional noise network underground).
I recall when RRRon was totally blown out by fact that people were fighting against mp3 blogs. Requesting their stuff being removed from blogs, torrents and sites. He concluded that back in the day, it was that urge what created underground. One would hear something so brilliant, that he would not shut up. He would make dubs to people, xerox, send letters, talk to anyone who was barely willing to listen that check out THIS. Fast forward decade or couple and people were trying to limit any "non official" spreading and perhaps even dialogue about material... Being annoyed that people knew about existence of some recordings, for example. Of course there is difference between fans and rip off file sellers, but mentality is still revealing change.
How to get more people talk and interact? Is it even mandatory? I'm pretty sure it is semi-futile attempt. We live in reality, where just about anyone will join "post 10 favorite album covers, no comments" -facebook challenge, but if they would have to actually say anything, it won't happen. It seems we just have to settle that there are handful of people who have urge to write or talk about things.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 02, 2020, 11:00:09 AM
I acknowledge what Duncan says, but I don't know is this new observation of any kind or unusual at any level? Just acknowledging how it goes. My assumption is, that this would be the same or related what has been done in in underground or culture since forever.
Agreed, hence:
Quote from: DuncanNow that noise and it's miniscule audience are represented across fewer and fewer platforms this is more so the case than ever, though I do think this problem has always existed to some extent
I am saying that the 'problem' (which isn't even really a 'problem') is more so the case now that it seems - judging from other people's accounts of it on here - that discourse takes place predominantly in places where input always takes the same form of very fast, temporary online interactivity - emojis, clicking like buttons etc
The overall point - perhaps poorly expressed on my part - is that it takes so little to create discourse that ultimately what noise 'is' as a subculture and genre, and what may or may not be missing from it at any given time will come only at the hands of the few people who actually are doing things - creating, releasing, writing, opining etc. If that's being done mostly on a facebook group or instagram then fine, if it's a return to zines and forums then cool, if podcasts become more of a thing then it'll be that. I don't think this means more people ought to be getting involved as if to add new life. That's nice on a local level for sure, but globally there is still too much going on to check out anyway.
At most I think it would simply be a beneficial thing for a diversity of opinion to exist in the few places there are conversations going on simply because it would be nice to feel like there is a bit more to noise fandom (hahhh) than 90% people being biased toward their friends releases (also a longstanding part of things, no new situation). I suppose this does mean more existing participants would need to speak up, and I get that not everybody cares to do so. It will be what it will be and that will be fine.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 02, 2020, 11:00:09 AM
How to get more people talk and interact? Is it even mandatory? I'm pretty sure it is semi-futile attempt. We live in reality, where just about anyone will join "post 10 favorite album covers, no comments" -facebook challenge, but if they would have to actually say anything, it won't happen. It seems we just have to settle that there are handful of people who have urge to write or talk about things.
Question would be: why talking and interaction is such important? For whom? And talking about? People want to feel identity... They like when they aren't alone....Seemingly such identity isn't bad but every collectivity/circle will bring about every idea to distortion sooner or later. Every society (even small and sub-culture) lead to frustration and confusing. I experienced several forums in the Internet/small groups in reality, each of them was counter-productive, where art/music wasn't the most important. Of corse somebody may say that it is much more better than nothing.... Maybe... For me it isn't better and I don't need such things like that. I prefer loneliness in interaction with music or art and I am sured that loneliness is much better to understand this music and this art. In the last years I discovered even that I don't need to know closer artists/composers in their interviews. Their views, their opinions, their reasons to begin with music/art are useless for me. Their art/music is only and enough form of communication/intreraction for me. I don't need their real "truth" - I would rather prefer their dreamed and unreal world of music/art. It is much more valuable than their real life. Anyway, maybe people other feel it in the same way but they aren't conscious about that... Maybe this is reason why they don't need talking and interaction with others?
Or maybe.... Once I knew a friend who declared liking noise/industrial music but he knew only the most famous of them, mainly from harsh noise and power electronics, and mainly from US. I asked him why he doesn't want to know more, and less known, from other countries, like from Russia, Brasil, China or even from our country, from Poland? He answered that he needn't that....He needn't to know so many and unknown acts/names. I was shocked such confession. I don't accept such attitude... I don't accept situation where people are closing themselves in their small worlds of specific art/music sects where isn't important music/art only an identity.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 02, 2020, 12:27:35 PM
Question would be: why talking and interaction is such important?
"check out the big brain on brad" - and just, if not more importantly, if brad doesn't communicate then any insights he may have will die with him. Communication may have its downside with the internet, but human progress was powered by communication, speech at first then writing, printing and so on. With each it seems radical changes to society occurred. The problem might be too much unfiltered communication creates noise. Which is kind of ironic.
I think writings about noise and related culture should be appealing in the same way as a noise release, thus why it is better printed and seedy.
what year was Troniks board started? I'm not interested in wading through all that shit, but it would make a good podcast subject, *wink wink*
I certainly took the Troniks board for granted, it was there when I came into noise and I never contemplated that it was special.
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AM
Since paying more attention to younger/newer projects I've noticed a lot of 'Debordian' actors, mimicking, transparent teen angst, elementary expression of "pain", etc. A lot of histrionics and shallowness, and the artwork for these projects is also usually demonstrative of this. I think someone said it in here already but it's necessary to reiterate: visuals are equally as important as sounds. I've heard tapes and records that sounded decent but had miserable artwork and it takes away from the project for me- you could argue that this is just an issue of/with taste which is subjective and that's valid, but I'm talking about glaringly lazy artwork- shit that, when you look at it, you (even those with no graphic-lore) can tell it took little effort. A sizable amount of newer projects or 'artists' (or whatever you'd like to call them) seem like parodies of their progenitors at this point, but I think this is inevitable anywhere/everywhere. Maybe this is all just overly-pessimistic but I don't think you can or should expect everyone to carry the torch safely, the spawning of caricatures is almost always inevitable as time goes on.
Every trend in music/art is and should be based on the young generation. Only young people are able to keep music/art alive - not such old like me or Mikko and, I suppose, the most more active in this forum. I don't care what kind of tools are using, FB, PAYPAL and others, the most important is how these tools can help in creating the power of music/art. It seems to me, but I may wrong, the younger generations of artists/composers/publishers/consumers are more passive, take the easy way out (in adopting methods from mainstream rules).... and wealthy, fat, comfortable, and complacent (in every meaning of these terms).
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AM
I was late to find noise, but the biggest reason behind the intrigue for me was how perfect the medium was/is to express genuine malcontent, disgust, despondency, etc.
1) It could be argued that the above may relate to Industrial and Power Electronics but not to Noise. That this lack of communication is what differentiates Noise from these other genres. That the very nature of noise prevents communication, and so is generally elsewhere unwanted. What is missing in noise is any meaning in the noise itself. If any is to be given the "Artist" has to resort to packaging.
That in the work of the originators, Merzbow, The Rita, Vomir et al. there is no (obvious) expression.
2 ) It could be further argued that what differentiates personal 'taste' from 'Art' is that the former is mere sensation the latter a disinterested aesthetic contemplation and judgement of a work. That the former is simply a 'style' to produce some sensual response and the latter a genre which provokes an aesthetic experience. And such indeterminate judgements can be universal, unlike 'taste'. This then delineates 'Art' from self (or anything other) expression.
3) In the case of noise, 'Noise' marks such a move from style and self expression to 'Art'. Hence the academic interest.
It could be argued and I don't think its as clear cut as that, (as Kant would have it) but that could be what is now missing. And there are obvious problems with elitism snobbery and such. So maybe now in the 21st C this idea of Kant's should be abandoned and ignored in favour of a purely subjective hegemony.
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AMvisuals are equally as important as sounds. I've heard tapes and records that sounded decent but had miserable artwork and it takes away from the project for me- you could argue that this is just an issue of/with taste which is subjective and that's valid
This is debatable but valid when it comes to being your preference for consuming music. For me, music is still primarily about music, and that's why I'd say good music with glaringly lazy artwork is still preferable to the opposite, which is all too common these days.
God this fucking Mack quote is so hilarious, I hope it gets quoted a thousand more times.
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AM
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 28, 2020, 06:18:56 PMI think its fascinating how my current fan base doesn't exist on this forum but it does on IG.
How is this "fascinating"? Instagram (or any social media) can usually only work for promotion if you have followers already, so it's not at all surprising that your work isn't as widely received on a forum where you probably have little to no prior connection(s), it's more of a meritocracy situation here as opposed to a clout-chasing socialization contest there.
You the one talkin about being late to the game rookie. I came from up from nothing within the community at large and those are the facts, have your opinions on me personally and as an artist but people know who the fuck I am. I been around. I used to give a damn but I never gave a fuck fool.
You made an account so your first post was to respond to me first instead of partaking in other discussions so come at me in the PM, you little bitch. How long you been stalking me weirdo?
Beef is plenty missing at this fucking point. I love it and live for it. The stories of Jon from Slogun and his handling of individuals is incredible both on stage and off stage. Tough guy bad guy shit all day long. Thats what I dig and enjoy. Some folks like that stuff, others want a cape, a gimp mask, ski mask, or whatever it takes for them to be a superhero and fit an aesthetic and fit in with a group. A lot of folks go on about tough guy music but is it really that much worse then the kvlt caped basement dwelling dorks? I have a hard time thinking so.
Also before I forget BlackBunsOfSteel with your lover Mishima, I don't give a fuck if my shit gets quoted 1000 times over. More then anything attached to your name certainly. You know my name so have we met in real life before? I get the feeling that you think about me a lot.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 04, 2020, 07:14:54 PMI came from up from nothing within the community at large and those are the facts, have your opinions on me personally and as an artist but people know who the fuck I am. I been around. I used to give a damn but I never gave a fuck fool.
>claims to not give a fuck
>proceeds to attempt to roast a nobody on a noise forum
I thought you were famous dude, so why act surprised that I know your name? Nah I'm just messing with ya fam (your name is public information on Discogs) and you're right - you're living rent-free in my head ever since you made that hilarious post about how insecure you are (YOU HATIN' ON IG?!? LOOk AT ALL MY EXPENSIVE GEAR MY GUY) xD
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 04, 2020, 07:14:54 PM
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AM
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 28, 2020, 06:18:56 PMI think its fascinating how my current fan base doesn't exist on this forum but it does on IG.
How is this "fascinating"? Instagram (or any social media) can usually only work for promotion if you have followers already, so it's not at all surprising that your work isn't as widely received on a forum where you probably have little to no prior connection(s), it's more of a meritocracy situation here as opposed to a clout-chasing socialization contest there.
You the one talkin about being late to the game rookie. I came from up from nothing within the community at large and those are the facts, have your opinions on me personally and as an artist but people know who the fuck I am. I been around. I used to give a damn but I never gave a fuck fool.
You made an account so your first post was to respond to me first instead of partaking in other discussions so come at me in the PM, you little bitch. How long you been stalking me weirdo?
Beef is plenty missing at this fucking point. I love it and live for it. The stories of Jon from Slogun and his handling of individuals is incredible both on stage and off stage. Tough guy bad guy shit all day long. Thats what I dig and enjoy. Some folks like that stuff, others want a cape, a gimp mask, ski mask, or whatever it takes for them to be a superhero and fit an aesthetic and fit in with a group. A lot of folks go on about tough guy music but is it really that much worse then the kvlt caped basement dwelling dorks? I have a hard time thinking so.
Also before I forget BlackBunsOfSteel with your lover Mishima, I don't give a fuck if my shit gets quoted 1000 times over. More then anything attached to your name certainly. You know my name so have we met in real life before? I get the feeling that you think about me a lot.
Is this satire?
Quote from: JLIAT on July 04, 2020, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AM
I was late to find noise, but the biggest reason behind the intrigue for me was how perfect the medium was/is to express genuine malcontent, disgust, despondency, etc.
1) It could be argued that the above may relate to Industrial and Power Electronics but not to Noise. That this lack of communication is what differentiates Noise from these other genres. That the very nature of noise prevents communication, and so is generally elsewhere unwanted. What is missing in noise is any meaning in the noise itself. If any is to be given the "Artist" has to resort to packaging.
That in the work of the originators, Merzbow, The Rita, Vomir et al. there is no (obvious) expression.
2 ) It could be further argued that what differentiates personal 'taste' from 'Art' is that the former is mere sensation the latter a disinterested aesthetic contemplation and judgement of a work. That the former is simply a 'style' to produce some sensual response and the latter a genre which provokes an aesthetic experience. And such indeterminate judgements can be universal, unlike 'taste'. This then delineates 'Art' from self (or anything other) expression.
3) In the case of noise, 'Noise' marks such a move from style and self expression to 'Art'. Hence the academic interest.
Maybe it could also be argued that no one has enough credit in the world to persuasively credibly argue the point and that one might therefore exist in parallel with another, possibly at the same time or at different but not far removed points in time, continuously vacillating between one and another without ever really knowing (if or if not caring).
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 05, 2020, 08:49:10 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on July 04, 2020, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AM
I was late to find noise, but the biggest reason behind the intrigue for me was how perfect the medium was/is to express genuine malcontent, disgust, despondency, etc.
1) It could be argued that the above may relate to Industrial and Power Electronics but not to Noise. That this lack of communication is what differentiates Noise from these other genres. That the very nature of noise prevents communication, and so is generally elsewhere unwanted. What is missing in noise is any meaning in the noise itself. If any is to be given the "Artist" has to resort to packaging.
That in the work of the originators, Merzbow, The Rita, Vomir et al. there is no (obvious) expression.
2 ) It could be further argued that what differentiates personal 'taste' from 'Art' is that the former is mere sensation the latter a disinterested aesthetic contemplation and judgement of a work. That the former is simply a 'style' to produce some sensual response and the latter a genre which provokes an aesthetic experience. And such indeterminate judgements can be universal, unlike 'taste'. This then delineates 'Art' from self (or anything other) expression.
3) In the case of noise, 'Noise' marks such a move from style and self expression to 'Art'. Hence the academic interest.
Maybe it could also be argued that no one has enough credit in the world to persuasively credibly argue the point and that one might therefore exist in parallel with another, possibly at the same time or at different but not far removed points in time, continuously vacillating between one and another without ever really knowing (if or if not caring).
The credit IMVHO lies in the 'thing' not in the person. Given this the idea of parallel universes, or the eternal return of the same, living in a computer simulation makes no difference. Knowing how to make a cup of coffee does.
Quote from: JLIAT on July 05, 2020, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 05, 2020, 08:49:10 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on July 04, 2020, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AM
I was late to find noise, but the biggest reason behind the intrigue for me was how perfect the medium was/is to express genuine malcontent, disgust, despondency, etc.
1) It could be argued that the above may relate to Industrial and Power Electronics but not to Noise. That this lack of communication is what differentiates Noise from these other genres. That the very nature of noise prevents communication, and so is generally elsewhere unwanted. What is missing in noise is any meaning in the noise itself. If any is to be given the "Artist" has to resort to packaging.
That in the work of the originators, Merzbow, The Rita, Vomir et al. there is no (obvious) expression.
2 ) It could be further argued that what differentiates personal 'taste' from 'Art' is that the former is mere sensation the latter a disinterested aesthetic contemplation and judgement of a work. That the former is simply a 'style' to produce some sensual response and the latter a genre which provokes an aesthetic experience. And such indeterminate judgements can be universal, unlike 'taste'. This then delineates 'Art' from self (or anything other) expression.
3) In the case of noise, 'Noise' marks such a move from style and self expression to 'Art'. Hence the academic interest.
Maybe it could also be argued that no one has enough credit in the world to persuasively credibly argue the point and that one might therefore exist in parallel with another, possibly at the same time or at different but not far removed points in time, continuously vacillating between one and another without ever really knowing (if or if not caring).
The credit IMVHO lies in the 'thing' not in the person. Given this the idea of parallel universes, or the eternal return of the same, living in a computer simulation makes no difference. Knowing how to make a cup of coffee does.
Ohshit, I just realized I'd posted this crap to the What's Missing topic. Thought this was the hnw topic. Argh, here we go again.
Prince George (aka Bloated Slutbag), responding to Dr Johnson and his dictionary in the classic Blackadder episode-
I know what words mean! You must be a bit of a thicko!IMNSHO there are plenty of people who only think they know how to make a cup of coffee.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 05, 2020, 10:41:50 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on July 05, 2020, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 05, 2020, 08:49:10 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on July 04, 2020, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AM
I was late to find noise, but the biggest reason behind the intrigue for me was how perfect the medium was/is to express genuine malcontent, disgust, despondency, etc.
1) It could be argued that the above may relate to Industrial and Power Electronics but not to Noise. That this lack of communication is what differentiates Noise from these other genres. That the very nature of noise prevents communication, and so is generally elsewhere unwanted. What is missing in noise is any meaning in the noise itself. If any is to be given the "Artist" has to resort to packaging.
That in the work of the originators, Merzbow, The Rita, Vomir et al. there is no (obvious) expression.
2 ) It could be further argued that what differentiates personal 'taste' from 'Art' is that the former is mere sensation the latter a disinterested aesthetic contemplation and judgement of a work. That the former is simply a 'style' to produce some sensual response and the latter a genre which provokes an aesthetic experience. And such indeterminate judgements can be universal, unlike 'taste'. This then delineates 'Art' from self (or anything other) expression.
3) In the case of noise, 'Noise' marks such a move from style and self expression to 'Art'. Hence the academic interest.
Maybe it could also be argued that no one has enough credit in the world to persuasively credibly argue the point and that one might therefore exist in parallel with another, possibly at the same time or at different but not far removed points in time, continuously vacillating between one and another without ever really knowing (if or if not caring).
The credit IMVHO lies in the 'thing' not in the person. Given this the idea of parallel universes, or the eternal return of the same, living in a computer simulation makes no difference. Knowing how to make a cup of coffee does.
Ohshit, I just realized I'd posted this crap to the What's Missing topic. Thought this was the hnw topic. Argh, here we go again.
Prince George (aka Bloated Slutbag), responding to Dr Johnson and his dictionary in the classic Blackadder episode- I know what words mean! You must be a bit of a thicko!
IMNSHO there are plenty of people who only think they know how to make a cup of coffee.
I only drink Camp coffee...
Quote from: JLIAT on July 05, 2020, 10:55:31 AM
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 05, 2020, 10:41:50 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on July 05, 2020, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 05, 2020, 08:49:10 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on July 04, 2020, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AM
I was late to find noise, but the biggest reason behind the intrigue for me was how perfect the medium was/is to express genuine malcontent, disgust, despondency, etc.
1) It could be argued that the above may relate to Industrial and Power Electronics but not to Noise. That this lack of communication is what differentiates Noise from these other genres. That the very nature of noise prevents communication, and so is generally elsewhere unwanted. What is missing in noise is any meaning in the noise itself. If any is to be given the "Artist" has to resort to packaging.
That in the work of the originators, Merzbow, The Rita, Vomir et al. there is no (obvious) expression.
2 ) It could be further argued that what differentiates personal 'taste' from 'Art' is that the former is mere sensation the latter a disinterested aesthetic contemplation and judgement of a work. That the former is simply a 'style' to produce some sensual response and the latter a genre which provokes an aesthetic experience. And such indeterminate judgements can be universal, unlike 'taste'. This then delineates 'Art' from self (or anything other) expression.
3) In the case of noise, 'Noise' marks such a move from style and self expression to 'Art'. Hence the academic interest.
Maybe it could also be argued that no one has enough credit in the world to persuasively credibly argue the point and that one might therefore exist in parallel with another, possibly at the same time or at different but not far removed points in time, continuously vacillating between one and another without ever really knowing (if or if not caring).
The credit IMVHO lies in the 'thing' not in the person. Given this the idea of parallel universes, or the eternal return of the same, living in a computer simulation makes no difference. Knowing how to make a cup of coffee does.
Ohshit, I just realized I'd posted this crap to the What's Missing topic. Thought this was the hnw topic. Argh, here we go again.
Prince George (aka Bloated Slutbag), responding to Dr Johnson and his dictionary in the classic Blackadder episode- I know what words mean! You must be a bit of a thicko!
IMNSHO there are plenty of people who only think they know how to make a cup of coffee.
I only drink Camp coffee...
I hope this is not a concession that taste can (if sometimes) define the thing? That'd be worrisome.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 05, 2020, 01:31:46 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on July 05, 2020, 10:55:31 AM
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 05, 2020, 10:41:50 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on July 05, 2020, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 05, 2020, 08:49:10 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on July 04, 2020, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: death persuader on July 04, 2020, 06:47:04 AM
I was late to find noise, but the biggest reason behind the intrigue for me was how perfect the medium was/is to express genuine malcontent, disgust, despondency, etc.
1) It could be argued that the above may relate to Industrial and Power Electronics but not to Noise. That this lack of communication is what differentiates Noise from these other genres. That the very nature of noise prevents communication, and so is generally elsewhere unwanted. What is missing in noise is any meaning in the noise itself. If any is to be given the "Artist" has to resort to packaging.
That in the work of the originators, Merzbow, The Rita, Vomir et al. there is no (obvious) expression.
2 ) It could be further argued that what differentiates personal 'taste' from 'Art' is that the former is mere sensation the latter a disinterested aesthetic contemplation and judgement of a work. That the former is simply a 'style' to produce some sensual response and the latter a genre which provokes an aesthetic experience. And such indeterminate judgements can be universal, unlike 'taste'. This then delineates 'Art' from self (or anything other) expression.
3) In the case of noise, 'Noise' marks such a move from style and self expression to 'Art'. Hence the academic interest.
Maybe it could also be argued that no one has enough credit in the world to persuasively credibly argue the point and that one might therefore exist in parallel with another, possibly at the same time or at different but not far removed points in time, continuously vacillating between one and another without ever really knowing (if or if not caring).
The credit IMVHO lies in the 'thing' not in the person. Given this the idea of parallel universes, or the eternal return of the same, living in a computer simulation makes no difference. Knowing how to make a cup of coffee does.
Ohshit, I just realized I'd posted this crap to the What's Missing topic. Thought this was the hnw topic. Argh, here we go again.
Prince George (aka Bloated Slutbag), responding to Dr Johnson and his dictionary in the classic Blackadder episode- I know what words mean! You must be a bit of a thicko!
IMNSHO there are plenty of people who only think they know how to make a cup of coffee.
I only drink Camp coffee...
I hope this is not a concession that taste can (if sometimes) define the thing? That'd be worrisome.
Your hopes are dashed, at least as i see it for Kant. He said that Marmite is about mere sensation and taste - and that defines it, you get it immediately, whereas Rembrandt's paintings you need to deliberate and apply judgement, i.e. your head rather than your tongue. (it would be foolish to lick a Rembrandt, and probably get you arrested) I'm more flexible (err un certain / stupid) and less the category type. (There is a book called Kant and the platypus by some Italian dude...)
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 28, 2020, 08:16:41 PM
Quote from: W.K. on June 25, 2020, 10:38:41 PM
many (including me) see this more as a Freak Animal / though guy noise forum, not as a regular noise forum for everyone. But yes, voicing different views and opinions is a necessary one and also why everybody should do their own thing and not be limited by the imaginary boundaries of a genre or aesthetic created or envisioned by someone else.
I am familiar with this being quite common view, although I don't necessarily see it would have to be so.
To my knowledge, there are lots of people who appreciate the "dark side of noise" (so to say)- on level of admiring work of artists etc, but at this moment absolutely hesitate to discuss of it in public, due not wanting it to surface in form of screen captures and gossip even years later. They rather opt private message groups with people they know, than public discussion. It is of course good way too, but may reduce the dissemination of information. All that knowledge and information that could have resulted even interesting printed zine, will disappear. Does it really matter - is of course different debate.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 26, 2020, 03:27:49 AM
Instead of engagement on here we have people who basically await the "leaders" to make topics and then they discuss them.
Which is partially true and also unfortunate. I would certainly like to see topics like "best chocolate monk releases", "recommended Tomutonttu albums" or such, emerge. There is absolutely nothing that stops opening new topics on other things than so called tough guy noise. It was original intent of SI to try merge the splintered and fragmented things, to be the "scene" where Sudden Infant & Genocide Organ would co-exist side by side, so to say with using known names as example. While it seemed to be vaguely fruitful goal 10-15 years ago, I don't see potential for that anymore. At least not in wider scale. Locally and in some other small framing, this of course comes out naturally.
Some really interesting discussion in this thread (and some not so...)
My thoughts in response to the above: At what point do you become accepted in a niche forum such as this? I have started a couple of "discussion" topics with zero replies. I respond to a few topics where I feel I have sufficient knowledge to do so. I still very much feel like a rookie in the scene, although keen to continue learning which is why I see this forum as a valuable source of information.
I make use of Instagram to network and learn about labels / scenes from around the globe. Without it, I would not know of many things that are not discussed here or at noisewiki. I know it is basically facebook anon but it works for me. I ditched my FB account about 4 years ago now.
IG is a very useful tool. Sold quite a few zines because of it. Maybe sold 1 or 2 zines per issue because of this forum. I can reach a wider audience using IG hashtags than I can from posting on here, Whilst sales are not important for zines (I aimed to break even, which I mainly did) it was more about the percolation of ideas and sharing of information. I would often trade / give away as many copies as I sold. Which I felt was great. Lucky enough to have a decent paying job that can allow me to do this. Time became a difficult factor however...
Nota bene, have now suspended making "Snare Rush" zine and am focusing on making my sounds as Soloman Tump. I felt my creative energies for zines was dwindling and have had an increasing urge to record sound. Might return to the zine one day though. I put a LOT of effort into making Snare Rush, and would often feel a dark depression / pressure on getting the content right for an audience that I could not predict. The zine did not focus on any particular genre other than what I was listening to at the time - therefore not enough noise to be considered a noise zine. And not enough techno for anyone who considers themselves a techno head to want to bother reading it. May refocus my attentions one day.
Quote from: theotherjohn on July 01, 2020, 01:04:32 PM
A Troniks/Chondritic Sound recollections forum thread could be an entertaining read. One of the stories that I loved from it was this very troubled teenager who joined and started sharing videos of him making vocal noise screaming into his computer's microphone in his messy bedroom. RRRon sort of pulled him under his wing and gave him some encouragement (he may have even made a Recycled tape for his project?), and everyone else tried to offer him some genuine help and support too. He evidently had some serious emotional/personal problems though, and due to all the chaos in his home life, his parents in sheer desperation told him that they were going to send him off to military school - subsequently he disappeared from the forum. A few years later, he came back on the forum out of the blue to post about how joining the military was the BEST thing that could ever happen in his life. He gained discipline and earned a high rank/position (I think he ultimately got recruited into the Navy SEALs?), got to travel the world and do cool things in life that he never could have dreamed of, made lifelong friends and started a family. He shared some cool photos, thanked everyone who helped and encouraged him whilst he was still dabbling in noise, and then disappeared again. Very inspiring to read. I hope he's still keeping well wherever he is these days.
I remember him and the story from the forums. Went by Robert something. I believe one of his projects was called Deadly Orifice? I thought it all happened on the Noiseman433 forum but I guess it was Chondritic or Troniks, it's all a bit of a blur for me...
https://www.noisewiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=DEADLY_ORIFICE
And yes, I hope he's still okay wherever he is as well.
deadly orifice is a different person
but they do have a release on rrr
Quote from: death persuader on July 07, 2020, 03:42:22 AMI agree that a good record/etc. with shit artwork is preferable to a horrible sounding one with solid artwork, but it'll never be not dispiriting to see/hear the former combination, I don't think it makes the argument that visuals/sounds are equally important any less valid either.
It comes down to what you prefer. To me it's not an argument at all but a mere opinion. If it's an argument for you though, you just contradicted yourself there: if you think a good music / shitty artwork combination is preferable to shitty music / good artwork, then it follows necessarily that they're not equally important. They aren't for me. If they are for you, that's fine and I have no way or desire to discredit your opinion.
Noise music without any context given to the listener by song titles, artwork, lyrics/vocals (PE), etc. is comparable to an abstract painting. Without looking at the title of the painting, the viewer will contextualize the piece according to their own perception and attached emotions. In this way, we can never understand the piece, but simultaneously cannot fail to understand it.
Quote from: BlackSunAndSteel on July 07, 2020, 02:38:31 PM
Noise music without any context given to the listener by song titles, artwork, lyrics/vocals (PE), etc. is comparable to an abstract painting. Without looking at the title of the painting, the viewer will contextualize the piece according to their own perception and attached emotions. In this way, we can never understand the piece, but simultaneously cannot fail to understand it.
I agree it's comparable to an abstract (non-representational) painting, and Vomir uses the familiar fine art title "Untitled". But if we look at the title and packaging of Merzbow's Bloody sea, i dont think it would be legitimate to think the sound work is in anyway expressing that, as its not significantly different to other of his works. Likewise The Rita's 'Skate' (made i think from recorded skateboards) and Thousands Of Dead Gods - recording from a shark cage. I for one couldn't tell the difference. As for understanding the work, here i would disagree. Though "illustration' propaganda, in a sense has understandable messages, as does advertising, some think, (and I do) art is more that that. I cited Tom Wolfe's 'Painted Word' and also Kant's ideas on aesthetics. It's that in the end the work defies understanding that gives it is unique aesthetic. It would follow from an 'understanding' model of art, the production would be fairly simple. To save space here, its not an understanding that makes one think a mountain beautiful. A qualification in geology would be kind of irrelevant. Or the beauty of a starry night.
Which is maybe what you mean by " we can never understand the piece, but simultaneously cannot fail to understand it"
But "the viewer will contextualize the piece according to their own perception and attached emotions." but artworks can and do change the viewers perceptions.*
*Which in noise is now missing?!
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 23, 2020, 07:57:13 PM
Anyways, I am tempted to discuss about thing I have discussed privately with many friends: Possibilities of noise in concrete, physical experience, but NOT commercial one. I know, that for my label or distribution to exists, it has to be what it is. But noise band, or artist or release in general. Sometimes it seems as if one could not even imagine anymore other way of existing, than business transaction? There is barely small enough artist or band, that there wouldn't be big cartel. That main reason of existence of release is commodity rather than communication. I fully acknowledge this may be lack of perception. Yet for years I have discovered ways other than what constitutes as "part of music business". Something I sense, was integral part of older noise & industrial.
Many things flourish from infra of "noise professionals". That is not problem. Problem seems if everything somehow exists in form of "noise professionals" - basically merchants.
A tantalizing point to ponder, and it seems like such a shame that this vital discussion is relegated to a message board, strewn across pages of drama. I almost didn't see this, but when I did it made me start seriously considering my own experience with noise. Are the limitless possibilities of noise in a concrete, physical experience meant in relation to live shows? Or the inherent 'physicality' in handling & playing a release; especially one that you know will be a sought-after classic to come: monolithic, awe-inspiring, underground.
Everyone has their part to play in responding to this dilemma that has been posed - if even just by considering one's own involvement with noise.
Nystrand in his interview for WCN podcast also partially answered our question of what might be missing, & what is sorely needed - more masterpieces. Something to commit to LP rather than another C20.
It's probably more that the end result and product is the primary motive these days, whilst the actual sound recording is secondary. For example, X minutes of noise by Y artist must fit the limitations of Z medium it is pressed/dubbed/mastered onto, and it can only exist as X amount of copies (and be promoted as such), and all copies of the release are mass manufactured to be visually identical/interchangeable with another copy. Whereas in tape trading days or the humble beginnings of a project, an artist might do a custom dub for you of two separate "releases" onto both sides of a C90 cassette, make custom artwork to fit the mood and include a handwritten letter thanking you for your interest. So maybe we do need more cassettes than LPs? Let the listener decide whether something is a masterpiece themselves, not the label trying to shill another product that'll fit neatly into a designated space on your alphabetised or colour coded shelves. It's no wonder why some artist Bandcamps have taken off massively - no format limitations, a pick and mix approach decided by You The Listener, and little to no label involvement. The music is all that matters.
Quote from: theotherjohn on December 14, 2021, 12:47:27 PM
So maybe we do need more cassettes than LPs?
I think there is vastly more tapes coming out than LP's already? But also tapes have transformed to be more about factory made "professional" items? I do get it, since I am basically burned out for dubbing tapes. Can't say how many thousands of tapes per year I used to dub, but nowadays, I can say it ain't all fun, haha. If item is wanted over X amount of copies, I feel its just fine to have it produced. To become factory yourself, is not necessarily only option and refusing to supply items to those who would like to get it, is also something I personally try to avoid.
When saying:
Possibilities of noise in concrete, physical experience, but NOT commercial one. Other ways other than what constitutes as "part of music business". Something I sense, was integral part of older noise & industrial. makes me think of noise meme recently forwarded to me. It had joke about 80's noise (summed up in eating raw horse head on stage, fucking dead bodies, making flutes of human bones) vs.. contemporary noise.. hehe.. It is kind of related to my feeling of missing element.
It is not mandatory to engage into bizarre socially forbidden acts, but the idea, that THIS could part of noise itself, seems crucial to me. That noise is not merely audio commodity for listening pleasure, but there is more to it. At least in personal level. And it can have this aura that pulls together certain people where some sort of creative interests feed each other, and noise culture itself doesn't come out merely as "music business", but authentic, somewhat alternative way of thinking and acting.
Classic example being like Z'ev stealing scrap metal - where this process is the realization of noise itself. Part of live performance and the recordings (as opposed to just buying latest gadget made by music instrument company). That industrial-noise
happens, in action and performance not made first and foremost for audience or documentation, but as personal quest, but nevertheless making its way to the art to be somehow sensed.
Quote from: Japsi on June 23, 2020, 04:46:53 PMI would tend to agree with the points raised by both of you. Having been away from noise for a long time, the whole field now seems to lack the vitality it had even ten years ago.
JLIAT mentioned an absence of 'novelty', which seems like the best term to use. It can easily seem like everything that can be done, has been done when it comes to noise. The glut of imitators and bandwagon jumpers doesn't help matters, since they only appear interested in trying to replicate the sounds that have gone before.
Personally, I still see noise as being the greatest way of finding novelty in sound.
The question, as far as I see it at the moment, is how can we bring back that freshness, vitality and novelty?
I think to keep Noise/PE vital in some ways is to "re-invent the wheel" at times so to speak. I think there are some great artists today who have been influenced by the past and have capitalized on that sound and aesthetics enough so to rekindle that urge or fire of passion. It's kind of like black metal genre, one guy will be bitching about this band is Darkclone and what not, but if the general audience could comprehend that mimicking sounds of the past can sometimes lead to a more fruitful future then I can think hope for the genre to remain can become more stable. Often times you don't get a true "clone" anyways and you get a kind of like this band or artist that splinters off into it's own identity when trying to mimick anyways, especially as time moves forward down the line. I myself for instance came into noise at Scatmother and not at Whitehouse, I like both of them a lot! I had to tread back in time to see the genius of Whitehouse, but also made me think how amazing something like Scatmother is today to take a bit of that influence and bring it with a blend of other great influences and create something all out it's own. It's almost like saying we got Bathory, so why listen to any other black metal that should come out. If you liked what they did, why not check out some other artists who tried to do something similar, especially in the regard that something similar could be eventually lead to new favorite or newly interesting. Also not to say that Scatmother is some Whitehouse copycat artist, but it's clear as day, Whitehouse has definitely had an influence and on many of PE artists today or in the last 10 years, maybe not always in the sound, but clearly in the overall aesthetics and I see nothing wrong with that at all.