Special Interest

Can anyone explain this? Mikko, seen you talk about this and others reference the phrase before.

The closest thing that comes to mind with this is Slogun. I have a hard time understanding how intimidating the audience, spitting in their faces, physically engaging people isn't "tough guy". I don't see this as a negative, as criminality is a topic explored within PE/Industrial but I guess if its not sexually deviant it makes it tough guy?

I don't fully understand the term either. The only consistent quality I've been able to identify about it is that it always seems to be made by emotionally underdeveloped American males.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 07, 2020, 09:16:27 PM
I have a hard time understanding how intimidating the audience, spitting in their faces, physically engaging people isn't "tough guy". I don't see this as a negative, as criminality is a topic explored within PE/Industrial but I guess if its not sexually deviant it makes it tough guy?

I would think of Waves Crashing Piano Chords as tough-guy PE-the obvious GG shit going on, forcing his tongue down people's throats, instigating fights, straight up sucker punching people, guerrilla sets, all of that...maybe.

I imagine balaclavas, and AK47s on the cover but I might be completely wrong.

to me it's more about what ISNT tough guy pe. think musique concrete or other 'high brow' arty noise vs a tape dedicated to all spree shooters.

Quote from: Duncan on July 07, 2020, 09:41:54 PM
The only consistent quality I've been able to identify about it is that it always seems to be made by emotionally underdeveloped American males.

I'm trying to recall an old thread that covered similar ground and I suppose this is the closest one I could find: Extreme of the Extreme? (http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=6651.0)

Physically assaulting the audience or doing anything that warrants arrest doesn't appeal to me at all, but a bit of theatrical intimidation and appropriate crowd work with willing-to-play-along audience members is certainly welcome in power electronics, and can make for a good Live Action if the pieces all add up together. It's up to the judgment and ability of the performer in recognising the repercussions of what they will do, predicting how others will react, and deciding whether it's necessary at all in the first place. Usually it isn't and the performer is better off sticking to just focusing on the music side. Which is what it's all about, ultimately.

I'll say this much: if you're going to act tough, don't hide behind a balaclava or clown makeup. Be brave and show your face. Knowing your weaknesses is far more important than knowing your strengths. And owning your vulnerabilities is far more effective than owning someone else's.

Quote from: Harvest on July 07, 2020, 11:57:08 PM
to me it's more about what ISNT tough guy pe. think musique concrete or other 'high brow' arty noise vs a tape dedicated to all spree shooters.

Dedicated to All Spree Shooters is a very in depth look at the gun problem/gun control situation in America. May not be post-mortem enough for some but it certainly is an interesting phenomena to be living in.

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 08, 2020, 12:34:43 AM
I'm trying to recall an old thread that covered similar ground and I suppose this is the closest one I could find: Extreme of the Extreme? (http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=6651.0)

Physically assaulting the audience or doing anything that warrants arrest doesn't appeal to me at all, but a bit of theatrical intimidation and appropriate crowd work with willing-to-play-along audience members is certainly welcome in power electronics, and can make for a good Live Action if the pieces all add up together. It's up to the judgment and ability of the performer in recognising the repercussions of what they will do, predicting how others will react, and deciding whether it's necessary at all in the first place. Usually it isn't and the performer is better off sticking to just focusing on the music side. Which is what it's all about, ultimately.

I'll say this much: if you're going to act tough, don't hide behind a balaclava or clown makeup. Be brave and show your face. Knowing your weaknesses is far more important than knowing your strengths. And owning your vulnerabilities is far more effective than owning someone else's.

I guess maybe what I'm getting at is tough guy noise a style played or does it revolve around imagery? Crowd interaction has been discussed plenty. I'm talking more the "aura" of a project like its sonic's and thematics.

Are you trying to find a sonic comparison between noise/PE and punk with the "tough guy" tag? Maybe a signature sound similar to the breakdown? I've seen audiences become frenzied when a slower pace interrupts the flow; crackling or malfunctioning sounds, or even dead crushing silence that come just prior to a searing chaotic high or release when it's fixed or resolved. These moments are usually unintentional rather than by design, which goes with my strengths and weaknesses opinion. If you can own your mistakes and work through them to a victorious win, that's a truer sign of ownership and being tough than false macho posturing. Just be genuine with it though and don't fake your flaws for predictable results, cos the last thing I'd want to see at a noise show is audience members aggro-stomping or practicing  spinning roundhouse kicks in anticipation to these moments coming up... leave that with the hardcore crowd.

As for visuals and thematics, I don't know what would constitute toughness in noise. On a toxic level, I suppose it would sit somewhere between being elitist and being an arsehole. Neither quality is worth fully striving for, but a little of both might work wonders.

Really though, there's better levels of "toughness" for projects to focus on. For example, I don't think spree shooters as a subject are particularly worth much consideration, beyond the shock factor which might attract a certain audience. Lower Electronics. But people who have overcome adversity or real struggles in life? That's what Tough Guy Power Electronics could and should be.

by tough guy if you means people with real criminal records - prison time sure there many who fit the bill myself include but i itake no pride in that shit

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 08, 2020, 02:49:49 AM
beyond the shock factor

Often people use this phrase to dismiss things they simply don't like or refuse to understand.

Quite interesting how everyone thinks that spree shooters relates to toughness. I had mentioned earlier the album is an exploration in deep issues in regards to ownership of guns and gun control within America. Don't understand how that tug of war relates to toughness but if you also don't live in America I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Quote from: Harvest on July 07, 2020, 11:57:08 PMto me it's more about what ISNT tough guy pe. think musique concrete or other 'high brow' arty noise vs a tape dedicated to all spree shooters.

= "everyone"

Expression is hardly to be taken *that* seriously.
But it has very common usage. For example, I have received mail from artists featured in SI magazine, who thanked for free copy, and said that it was odd to see himself among all these tough guys.
Not that it would be 100% accurate description of rest of artists featured, but one can see the reason.

Expression is often used, and it is not necessarily negative remark at all. Basically anything I do, could be filed among "tough guy noise". I take it with pride, but at the same time I feel absolutely nothing in common with the hip hop -esque tough guy / "street cred" -aesthetic, which generally means something entirely different.

Any Finnish people will know the difference, what it means when you got the "kovis". It can be hardly described in English to come out accurately, but there is utmost difference of the nerd in front of class who will listen noise and john cage, and the kovis, tukka silmillä takarivissä... heh...

Lines are certainly blurred, but even if one would pretend otherwise,  you know the difference of nerd noise and tough guy noise - at least in humoristic division.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 08, 2020, 06:36:30 PM

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 08, 2020, 02:49:49 AM
beyond the shock factor

Often people use this phrase to dismiss things they simply don't like or refuse to understand.

And just as often other people use that response to avoid engaging with genuine criticism of their work. Vicious cycle of conversational unwillingness and the inability of people in either direction to support their claims beyond a few stock phrases.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 08, 2020, 06:36:30 PM
Quite interesting how everyone thinks that spree shooters relates to toughness. I had mentioned earlier the album is an exploration in deep issues in regards to ownership of guns and gun control within America.

Who is 'everyone'?

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 08, 2020, 06:36:30 PM
Don't understand how that tug of war relates to toughness but if you also don't live in America I wouldn't expect you to understand.

I don't think geography is the only reason someone might argue that the album, or any other, misses the mark of demonstrating an in depth exploration of its given subject and, speaking seriously, this is where the whole argument of 'toughness' is quite important. The notion (or accusation) of toughness in PE/Industrial doesn't, I think, stem from a given theme or topic some one particular artist is trying to talk about but rather the fact this the music is more often than not characterised by aggressive, forceful sounds & heavily processed, screamed vocals etc etc etc. We can argue about whether that's good, bad or tough for as long as we want and it'll probably just be a matter of taste and opinion. You can however question whether that formula really allows an artist to demonstrate in depth commentary or exploration of ANY topic if it's methodology and delivery is based entirely on a fairly narrow pool of emotive or narrative tools.

Don't mean to be overly disparaging, but I've never met anyone connected to noise who I'd describe as "tough". It's like most "extreme" art innit....people playing a role. I also think the assaulting the audience thing is a fuckin cop-out. Few people at a noise gig are gonna retaliate. Take your act to the crowd at a football match or something if you want to show what yer all about.

[/quote]

Often people use this phrase to dismiss things they simply don't like or refuse to understand.

Quite interesting how everyone thinks that spree shooters relates to toughness. I had mentioned earlier the album is an exploration in deep issues in regards to ownership of guns and gun control within America. Don't understand how that tug of war relates to toughness but if you also don't live in America I wouldn't expect you to understand.
[/quote]

Weird to correlate some pussy with a gun to being tough. I agree. In most instances, using a gun to execute your anger against someone is weak as fuck. As a rural kid, I certainly owned and lived around several guns. They were used as a tool. Exacting anger manifested the old fashioned way. With fists. Implying that shooting people at distance is in any way "tough" is completely fucking laughable...

ok let me rephrase this for you meat heads

artsy noise people think anything to do with violence or sex is "tough guy pe shit" they think its tough guy shit cause YOU the listener are being a "tough guy"


its not a genre at all its literally just a catch all for those outside the scene. talking about murder & sex & underbelly of life to many is just edgelord posturing.

You could break it (PE? "edgy stuff"?) down into like three broad categories:

1) edgy white guys (the balaclava & AK47 xeroxed artwork guys "pushing boundaries") with the pics of junkies, prostitutes, a pic of a severed head on some bedbug infested mattress.... fade in the MS20 synth drone and the flanged vocals, some yelling, fade it out again, maybe a sample from youtube..... 86.5%?

2) PE from the "outsider" perspective - documenting or a commentary on the horrors or war, urban blight, addiction - maybe upgrade to an Arturia synth but sounds the same..... 13%?

3) guys who've "lived that life" and are now making PE....  0.5%?

A superb summation, ha!

Quote from: Duncan on July 08, 2020, 09:11:59 PM

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 08, 2020, 06:36:30 PM

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 08, 2020, 02:49:49 AM
beyond the shock factor

Often people use this phrase to dismiss things they simply don't like or refuse to understand.

And just as often other people use that response to avoid engaging with genuine criticism of their work. Vicious cycle of conversational unwillingness and the inability of people in either direction to support their claims beyond a few stock phrases.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 08, 2020, 06:36:30 PM
Quite interesting how everyone thinks that spree shooters relates to toughness. I had mentioned earlier the album is an exploration in deep issues in regards to ownership of guns and gun control within America.

Who is 'everyone'?

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 08, 2020, 06:36:30 PM
Don't understand how that tug of war relates to toughness but if you also don't live in America I wouldn't expect you to understand.

I don't think geography is the only reason someone might argue that the album, or any other, misses the mark of demonstrating an in depth exploration of its given subject and, speaking seriously, this is where the whole argument of 'toughness' is quite important. The notion (or accusation) of toughness in PE/Industrial doesn't, I think, stem from a given theme or topic some one particular artist is trying to talk about but rather the fact this the music is more often than not characterised by aggressive, forceful sounds & heavily processed, screamed vocals etc etc etc. We can argue about whether that's good, bad or tough for as long as we want and it'll probably just be a matter of taste and opinion. You can however question whether that formula really allows an artist to demonstrate in depth commentary or exploration of ANY topic if it's methodology and delivery is based entirely on a fairly narrow pool of emotive or narrative tools.

Everyone is every person in the thread that has equated "spree shooting" to tough guy.

More then willing to engage on the topic, you are the one who seems dismissive.

Also you are judging an album based on its title, cover, and not its content.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 08, 2020, 08:48:52 PM
Basically anything I do, could be filed among "tough guy noise". I take it with pride.

Word up.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 09, 2020, 06:24:36 PM

Quote from: Duncan on July 08, 2020, 09:11:59 PM

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 08, 2020, 06:36:30 PM

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 08, 2020, 02:49:49 AM
beyond the shock factor

Often people use this phrase to dismiss things they simply don't like or refuse to understand.

And just as often other people use that response to avoid engaging with genuine criticism of their work. Vicious cycle of conversational unwillingness and the inability of people in either direction to support their claims beyond a few stock phrases.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 08, 2020, 06:36:30 PM
Quite interesting how everyone thinks that spree shooters relates to toughness. I had mentioned earlier the album is an exploration in deep issues in regards to ownership of guns and gun control within America.

Who is 'everyone'?

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 08, 2020, 06:36:30 PM
Don't understand how that tug of war relates to toughness but if you also don't live in America I wouldn't expect you to understand.

I don't think geography is the only reason someone might argue that the album, or any other, misses the mark of demonstrating an in depth exploration of its given subject and, speaking seriously, this is where the whole argument of 'toughness' is quite important. The notion (or accusation) of toughness in PE/Industrial doesn't, I think, stem from a given theme or topic some one particular artist is trying to talk about but rather the fact this the music is more often than not characterised by aggressive, forceful sounds & heavily processed, screamed vocals etc etc etc. We can argue about whether that's good, bad or tough for as long as we want and it'll probably just be a matter of taste and opinion. You can however question whether that formula really allows an artist to demonstrate in depth commentary or exploration of ANY topic if it's methodology and delivery is based entirely on a fairly narrow pool of emotive or narrative tools.

Everyone is every person in the thread that has equated "spree shooting" to tough guy.

More then willing to engage on the topic, you are the one who seems dismissive.

Also you are judging an album based on its title, cover, and not its content.

I've heard the album

In fairness, it wasn't me who brought the subject up of guns in regards to toughness in the first place in this topic (nor was it you HONOR_IS_KING!, but you felt compelled to address it and reinforce the association inadvertently). Seemingly, we can all agree then that operating a gun is not related to toughness? If so, that means we're at least coming closer to a definition of what this so far rather vague thread relates to, even if it's by process of elimination...

And not to keep going on about them, but I've actually had a brief but unique opportunity to handle, load and fire them with live ammunition rounds here in the UK in a past job that offered rare access to a place usually only reserved for specialised police or military training. Due to my complete inexperience, I just did limited target shooting with an understandably intimidating ex-Army guy supervising me, but I still have more real world experience with an AK47 than your average Limey who has only used one whilst playing Call Of Duty. Did I feel like a tough guy for firing a gun? Quite the opposite, it scared the fuck out of me! The sensory experience taught me that I wouldn't enjoy being on either end of the barrel personally, least of all if I was in the company of someone with a traumatic history or agenda. Even so, I wish the majority of the public had a similar opportunity to operate one safely outside of a recreational or entertainment situation, if only to know how powerful and destructive they can be in a split second. My utmost respect goes out to professionals who handle and use them on a daily basis, and who deal with life and death decisions every working day.

"Acting tough" is just as lame as acting like you are anything else: smart, knowledgeable, spiritual, artistic, sexy, whatever. Focus on accepting that you are who you are, rather than trying to come across as something else. 99% of humanity are going to hate you anyway, so what's the point of pretending?

Call me a stick-in-the-mud if you want, but I don't like to be included in a performance without my previous knowledge or consent. I can handle being screamed at, or shoved, or having crap thrown at me from the stage, but I'm not going to put up with actually being assaulted or spat at without retaliating.

Quote from: Atrophist on July 12, 2020, 12:31:48 AM
Call me a stick-in-the-mud if you want, but I don't like to be included in a performance without my previous knowledge or consent. I can handle being screamed at, or shoved, or having crap thrown at me from the stage, but I'm not going to put up with actually being assaulted or spat at without retaliating.

I wonder how many people who try to "act tough" in such a manner end up with unpleasant surprises when audiences get annoyed by their antics!

Couple example of this:

Con-Dom talking about performance he did in Taiwan. Harassing the crowd, and being delighted that one female started to fight back. She would not take the "abuse" as accepted performance, but treat it like being abused in "real world" so to say. I don't remember how he described it, but there was some sort of notion of spark of resistance ignited by performance. Expected roles of performer and audience broken. artist doing something without consent, yep, I assume so - but that is mandatory element of that particular performance. It was not harm and damage to audience member, but something enough to ignite authentic feeling.

Finnish short lived PE trio performed show in one of the early private shows in Helsinki. big venue, large open space with various kind of people attending. When everybody do not know eachother, "actions with audience" has notch more relevance. There would be nothing worse than "acting tough" for 15 close friends. Haha. It would be plain silly. As opposite, focusing energy on performance could happen in almost "youth crew" type of group spirit - like Fire/In/The/Head did. He would not attack the crow, but actually always fall backwards to crowd while screaming. Crowd would not be dodging attacks, but actually involve in live gig in form of support. Like one big mosh-pit, where energy is most of all... positive?
Anyways, back to the Finnish band. One of the commando masked men approached audience, pushed first couple of guys like lame thug inciting streetfight. He got smashed in the head with beer can and stumpled few feet backwards and returned to stage. Haha. Absolutely nothing against any of the artists, but situation was classic display that acting or even "being" tough, has the element that there is always tougher guy few feets away. If you are not up to challenge, then other approach is better.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 12, 2020, 09:36:49 AM
Couple example of this:

Con-Dom talking about performance he did in Taiwan. Harassing the crowd, and being delighted that one female started to fight back. She would not take the "abuse" as accepted performance, but treat it like being abused in "real world" so to say. I don't remember how he described it, but there was some sort of notion of spark of resistance ignited by performance. Expected roles of performer and audience broken. artist doing something without consent, yep, I assume so - but that is mandatory element of that particular performance. It was not harm and damage to audience member, but something enough to ignite authentic feeling.

To quote him as best from my memory "She wasn't like the 99% who didn't do anything, she was apart of the 1% who will stand up for themselves."

Con-Dom is about the only act I can think of whose work does not wither in the shadow of "tough guy" theatrics. I feel like anyone who deliberately physically accosts the audience is an emotionally stunted man baby who falsely equates negative reaction to meaning their performance art is over the audience's head. In actually , it's just that punching me is not gonna make your unoriginal PE any better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSwnOVYFN20

the video in question for those who have not seen.

Actually, I never met any tough guy street-fighting types listening to noise or PE. I like Con-dom but this artsy pushing around is really nothing. The Slogun act feels a bit forced to me and is certainly not intimidating or dangerous. I've been to (mostly punk)shows where massive fights broke out, people were stabbed or seriously hurt by flying beer bottles. I saw a face smashed to pulp with a guitar, a feet first stagedive that broke a girls neck and I watched a guy being beaten into a coma with a bar stool. Can't say I was enjoying all this but sometimes I miss these spontaneous outbursts of aggression that were real, dangerous and certainly not staged. It all seems to be about creating an inclusive safe space these days which is probably a good thing but also really boring.

One of the best sets I've ever seen was Con-Dom at God Blast America.  During the set he did throw a girl to the ground and mount her and she ran out crying.  With that being said any PE pails in comparison of being tough compared to NYHC shows I went to in the 90's.  The stuff that went down there makes any noise show seem tame.  I think it's been established there is no such thing as "tough guy power electronics."

Quote from: Coma Detox on July 13, 2020, 04:22:05 PM
One of the best sets I've ever seen was Con-Dom at God Blast America.  During the set he did throw a girl to the ground and mount her and she ran out crying.

PE fans in a nutshell right here

The sad thing too is that Con-Dom is about as deep as PE gets.

Quote from: WCN on July 13, 2020, 06:56:14 PM
The sad thing too is that Con-Dom is about as deep as PE gets.

Word up

AKA incel electronics

it's interesting that this is the contemporary view of PE, in some circles at least.. it will probably never be an "intellectual" art form, but at it's best i think it can be more than just reactionary machismo music... interesting discussion none the less.

It has been told to my by several American guys who have longer perception on shift. That contemporary PE is vastly more culturally leaning towards hip hop, than hardcore and even more further from the industrial culture. So far, that one barely recognizes it being "same". Surface level elements, such as "shouting" over "synth noise" lump them together, but there is barely similarity when you look at it.

When people laugh and ridicule contemporary PE, I can for sure see why. I can also see why "tough guy" for those people associates instantly to jocks, pussies with guns, junkies behaving like losers, etc. Or that being just rude bully would somehow be connected to PE.

One can simply look at dictionary for other angles:
-(of a substance or object) strong enough to withstand adverse conditions or rough handling.
-endure a period of hardship or difficulty.
-able to endure hardship or pain.
-demonstrating a strict and uncompromising approach.
-having the confidence and determination to cope in difficult situations.

etc.

From dawn on industrial music and emergence of power electronics, artists would present something that generally makes them being disliked and ridiculed. Liked by some, but strongly opposed by some. This substance itself would be tough/strong. Strong enough to poke feeling in nearly random stranger. Some pretend as if they oppose content X because it is "lazy" or "mediocre", but they do not oppose other lazy and other mediocre things. It quickly reveals what they actually oppose.

Quote from: whiteheatnoise on July 13, 2020, 06:18:56 PM

Quote from: Coma Detox on July 13, 2020, 04:22:05 PM
One of the best sets I've ever seen was Con-Dom at God Blast America.  During the set he did throw a girl to the ground and mount her and she ran out crying.

PE fans in a nutshell right here

Greatness of noise show - for me - is the sheer energy of noise and performance. If someone looks for fight and physical harm, I guess there is other places to go.

But IF it happens that girls leave to hall crying, I ain't losing sleep over it. I do not think Con-Dom gigs, where the harassing ladies is part of the act, is the "tough" element. It is more about having the confidence and determination to cope in difficult situations if and when such emerge. Like, being outcasted, rejected, ridiculed (among many other things) and simply not instantly being issuing apologies, remorse and regret just to please people.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 14, 2020, 09:25:53 AM
Greatness of noise show - for me - is the sheer energy of noise and performance. If someone looks for fight and physical harm, I guess there is other places to go.

But IF it happens that girls leave to hall crying, I ain't losing sleep over it. I do not think Con-Dom gigs, where the harassing ladies is part of the act, is the "tough" element. It is more about having the confidence and determination to cope in difficult situations if and when such emerge. Like, being outcasted, rejected, ridiculed (among many other things) and simply not instantly being issuing apologies, remorse and regret just to please people.

I can't really attest to your other comments as I am not a big fan of most PE to begin with. However, I do agree with you in that great performances often come from high energy and intensity, but harassing a total stranger who also happens to be a female seems cheap to me, and does not possess "sheer energy". It sounds like you are somehow making Con-Dom into some kind of martyr for having the guts to harass a woman and then having to deal with the rejection and ridicule as a result of that, instead of apologizing. To me, that just sounds like the ideals of an incel, not some thought-provoking experimental artist. I will never see the benefit in women being harassed or exploited through art/noise and live performance as that is already an issue in our daily lives, outside of the tiny world of noise and power electronics. It's such an old, tired concept. But to be clear, I realize that I'm no angel and I don't want to come off as a social justice warrior; I mean, I run a business that often makes money from the sales of items that certainly are not in line with my own personal ideals.

Tough-guy-incel-bad-boy-PE vs Artsy-homo-hippie-nice-noise...battle of 2020...No fucking fence sitters!   

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 14, 2020, 09:25:53 AM
From dawn on industrial music and emergence of power electronics, artists would present something that generally makes them being disliked and ridiculed. Liked by some, but strongly opposed by some. This substance itself would be tough/strong. Strong enough to poke feeling in nearly random stranger. Some pretend as if they oppose content X because it is "lazy" or "mediocre", but they do not oppose other lazy and other mediocre things. It quickly reveals what they actually oppose.

Amen Mikko. Very, very well put.

You mentioned how PE is more influenced by hip hop these days. Any examples you got and how this influence plays out?

Quote from: Born F. Mental on July 14, 2020, 05:53:11 PM
Tough-guy-incel-bad-boy-PE vs Artsy-homo-hippie-nice-noise...battle of 2020...No fucking fence sitters!   

Yes. Sometimes, often actually, when I read some people here, everything is falling down... and I give up, I prefer to be silent then. Probably it is problem of different generations, maybe some kind of sensitivity, maybe knowledge... I don't know...I know that "noise" or "industrial" (whatever you name it) is becoming a toothless funny beast which is a calque of well-known reality nowadays.

My toungue in cheek post was mostly trying to point out that people should listen to whatever they want, and that most people out there dip their feet in both camps and inbetween and doesn`t give a shit.

Quote from: whiteheatnoise on July 13, 2020, 06:18:56 PM

Quote from: Coma Detox on July 13, 2020, 04:22:05 PM
One of the best sets I've ever seen was Con-Dom at God Blast America.  During the set he did throw a girl to the ground and mount her and she ran out crying.

PE fans in a nutshell right here

I wasn't implying what he did made the set great.  The overall sound was what made it superb.  It was just an example of what other's were stating about a live Con-Dom set.  He tried pushing me and he nearly fell over.  Just maximizing my point that "tough guy PE" is not a real term.

Quote from: whiteheatnoise on July 14, 2020, 04:17:59 PMIt sounds like you are somehow making Con-Dom into some kind of martyr for having the guts to harass a woman and then having to deal with the rejection and ridicule as a result of that, instead of apologizing.

People who do that have no clear understanding of Dando's intentions; if you watch the short interview on this aspect of his set, this becomes quite clear. Of course artists can always lie about meaning afterwards and post-hoc rationalize and explain their behavior; but in this case it seemed to be his genuine intention for the act of harassment to be more inclusive of the audience - pushing them to their limit of comfort, to get them to "stand up for themselves" and not about himself having to deal with rejection.
As for the topic, to whom it may concern, to me 'tough guy' has a rather negative connotation and translates a bit to 'edgelord'. So I would personally only use that term to describe ridiculous and immature stage behavior that I cannot take seriously. If the meaning was more like Mikko's dictionary terms, I would simply ascribe the term 'tough' to the person referenced.

To my recollect, it was 20 years ago, the woman attacked at GBA was with a significant other, who watched the remainder of the set and stated that we "was gonna kick his ass" or something along those lines. That's your tough guy right there. Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Excellent discussion and topic to those who have genuinely treated this topic with a keen interest for a genuine analysis / explanation, without lapsing into kneejerk-reactions, with poorly-defined buzzwords.

I will give an appropriate and comprehensive reply when I have the time.

Quote from: murderous_vision on July 14, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Really? Would you like to see any borders in the music/art? Would you like to see an artist/performer who stands far away, in the cage or hidden? Would you like to feel comfortable, safely in the crowd during show? And what  about psychological/mental violence in the art? Do you see some borders there too, really? Noise hurts... noise has to hurt in every possible way.... If you don't understand that, why do you use this fucking noise? I know.... you would like to adopt this fucking, harm noise in acceptable form, like this fucking Judeo-Christian culture which forces or devastating every unwanted shapes/phenomenas. It is sad you write such things.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 14, 2020, 06:09:49 PM

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 14, 2020, 09:25:53 AM
From dawn on industrial music and emergence of power electronics, artists would present something that generally makes them being disliked and ridiculed. Liked by some, but strongly opposed by some. This substance itself would be tough/strong. Strong enough to poke feeling in nearly random stranger. Some pretend as if they oppose content X because it is "lazy" or "mediocre", but they do not oppose other lazy and other mediocre things. It quickly reveals what they actually oppose.

Amen Mikko. Very, very well put.

You mentioned how PE is more influenced by hip hop these days. Any examples you got and how this influence plays out?

I have been told about fairly recent NY gigs where between bands, it's hip hop being played. Each performing band is basically show in  format of "telling how it is" over not really that experimental sound. The visual look of guys as well. Like this particular topic, you can see that notion of some sort of "street cred" type of approach.

Freak Animal put out also things like SKM-ETR, which was obviously hip hop inspired PE, although 3" on my label less so than full length.

That said, there is very strong current of PE bands that appear more like progression of "cyber grind", rather than anything else. No hip hop, no hardcore, no industrial. Only sort of one dimensional electronic noise + as-vile-as-it-gets content applied on top. I am not sure would I really count that to be really in lineage of "industrial" at all, but as this is lines drawn in water one may just have to accept that it is.

Quote from: murderous_vision on July 14, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
To my recollect, it was 20 years ago, the woman attacked at GBA was with a significant other, who watched the remainder of the set

Quote from: whiteheatnoise on July 14, 2020, 04:17:59 PM
but harassing a total stranger who also happens to be a female seems cheap to me, and does not possess "sheer energy". It sounds like you are somehow making Con-Dom into some kind of martyr for having the guts to harass a woman and then having to deal with the rejection and ridicule as a result of that, instead of apologizing.

I don't think he was ever in trouble for that? Like Murderous Vision describes: Wife of well known noise artists, and I recall there was other details to this. Some being displeased for using good old KKK related things. The minor discomfort and necessity of tiny bit of resilience of many industrial albums and shows.

Commentors 20 years later, most likely do not know why, to whom and what did actually happen and in what context. If assumption would be that first thing first, apology was/is necessary, I find it both bizarre and sign of utmost corruption of contemporary society showing its ugly face. I think already in this topic was reminded of the Con-Dom Taiwan set, what was closer to incident of empowerment than someone being "harmed".

I find it interesting that several decades work of artists would be narrowed down to couple seconds detail of what one could call performance art. In related cases, perhaps old album cover. Old track title. Make assumption, and feel it would be somehow progressive to make notion and apologies are needed. To whom exactly and for what? If we take that route, would it be appropriate to demand Macronympha apologize No Fun show due violence and chaos? Maybe endlessly pester Bennet for lyrics and abusing african music for financial gain? haha... jeeesus. It is all the same category, and it is all very much today. Yet very very old, tired concept already.

Boys will be boys.

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 15, 2020, 07:27:21 AM

Quote from: murderous_vision on July 14, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Really? Would you like to see any borders in the music/art? Would you like to see an artist/performer who stands far away, in the cage or hidden? Would you like to feel comfortable, safely in the crowd during show? And what  about psychological/mental violence in the art? Do you see some borders there too, really?

The borders already exist in that these performances take place before crowds of people who are 99% aware of what to expect from industrial music and are certain to tolerate the behaviour, even hope for it. This is definitely true in the case of Con-Dom. I saw him a few times toward the end of the project's life and he even alluded to this in a panel discussion I saw him attend. The strength of Con-Dom imo lies in the consistency and depth of its concepts, lyrics, presentation across the records and music - not the fact that he would get in some fan's face at a live gig.

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 15, 2020, 07:27:21 AM
Noise hurts... noise has to hurt in every possible way.... If you don't understand that, why do you use this fucking noise?

These sound like rules to me. Borders if you will. Maybe it's not the case for you but in many long years of listening to noise there is much more I gain from it than just some idea that it 'should' be difficult, it 'should' hurt, it 'should' be extreme.  And even in the cases of noise I have seen and experienced where all of those things have been at play they were effective precisely because they did not provide an experience that I was expecting as a listener of noise.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland
I find it interesting that several decades work of artists would be narrowed down to couple seconds detail of what one could call performance art. In related cases, perhaps old album cover. Old track title. Make assumption, and feel it would be somehow progressive to make notion and apologies are needed. To whom exactly and for what? If we take that route, would it be appropriate to demand Macronympha apologize No Fun show due violence and chaos? Maybe endlessly pester Bennet for lyrics and abusing african music for financial gain? haha... jeeesus. It is all the same category, and it is all very much today.

Has anybody here posited the notion that Dando should be apologising for something he has done? I've seen some pretty valid criticisms of how effective his - or anyone elses - act of pushing people around live may or may not be the concept heavy act its argued to be but nothing else? I agree with you about narrowing decades of an artists work down to a single clip or album cover but it also works in reverse - you could easily imagine that many people have defined Con-Dom's work based upon just as little information as what is said in that clip, never having thought for themselves about whether it works, whether he might be wrong, whether or not the given statements are consistent with all the actions, whether the concepts still hold water 35 years later. No critical engagement at all, just the gospel word of the artist and the received wisdom of how the music is to be understood. These are where the conversations invariably end.

Quote from: Duncan on July 15, 2020, 11:03:13 AM

The borders already exist in that these performances take place before crowds of people who are 99% aware of what to expect from industrial music and are certain to tolerate the behaviour, even hope for it.

Borders (even in the art) will exist always but we (artists and receivers or people) should break them permanently, again and again.

Quote from: Duncan on July 15, 2020, 11:03:13 AM

in many long years of listening to noise there is much more I gain from it than just some idea that it 'should' be difficult, it 'should' hurt, it 'should' be extreme.  And even in the cases of noise I have seen and experienced where all of those things have been at play they were effective precisely because they did not provide an experience that I was expecting as a listener of noise.

I didn't want to write that only one reason listening to noise is self-torture. I wanted to write that everyone who want to love noise should know that noise is a (metaphysical) substance to destroy everything surrounded around us (included ourselves). You may listen/use it only for your estethical/hedonistic way but you must know this "noise" has an other goal on other level. Of course you may say that nothing needn't must... then OK... we may talk about subjectivity in perception of noise. And then we can discover that noise and violence don't exist.... Then I may say that noise for me is the pop music (as Masami Akita said) and love is violence - because this emotion interferes with other man.

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 15, 2020, 07:27:21 AM

Quote from: murderous_vision on July 14, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Really? Would you like to see any borders in the music/art? Would you like to see an artist/performer who stands far away, in the cage or hidden? Would you like to feel comfortable, safely in the crowd during show? And what  about psychological/mental violence in the art? Do you see some borders there too, really? Noise hurts... noise has to hurt in every possible way.... If you don't understand that, why do you use this fucking noise? I know.... you would like to adopt this fucking, harm noise in acceptable form, like this fucking Judeo-Christian culture which forces or devastating every unwanted shapes/phenomenas. It is sad you write such things.

Really, nothing to get pissy about. Simply, if I am standing at a gig and and a performer throws me to the ground and climbs on top of me, there will be retaliation. I guess that makes me a poser, not worthy of this noise. Although, I am quite sure that Dando realizes that retaliation might become part of the performance as well, or at least I hope he did...

Also, I don't recall there being any trouble over it. Just the guy saying what he was gonna do.

Quote from: murderous_vision on July 15, 2020, 01:47:55 PM
Really, nothing to get pissy about. Simply, if I am standing at a gig and and a performer throws me to the ground and climbs on top of me, there will be retaliation. I guess that makes me a poser, not worthy of this noise. Although, I am quite sure that Dando realizes that retaliation might become part of the performance as well, or at least I hope he did...

You shouldn't have hope only you should know that you are part of this performance. If he wanted to attack you he would do it before or after this performance.

Quote from: Duncan on July 15, 2020, 11:03:13 AMHas anybody here posited the notion that Dando should be apologising for something he has done?

I was certainly not implying that he should apologize, more so just not be using cheap shock tactics like assaulting a female audience member for the sake of art or whatever in the first place. I guess that's why I will always greatly enjoy an act like Incapacitants far greater than any controversial PE act; they can just use themes about banking and other mundane shit and still create noise that is more harsh and extreme than pretty much anything else. That is far more genuine to me, personally.

Quote from: whiteheatnoise on July 15, 2020, 03:07:44 PM
for the sake of art or whatever in the first place. I guess that's why I will always greatly enjoy an act like Incapacitants far greater than any controversial PE act; they can just use themes about banking and other mundane shit and still create noise that is more harsh and extreme than pretty much anything else. That is far more genuine to me, personally.

~

Yeah, Incapacitants is perfect example noise "for the sake of art". I love Incapacitants (frankly speaking better their noise shows than records) but, they are doing the same things almost 40 years, still the same, true autoplagiarism. CON-DOM's music maybe isn't such intense and harsh, but, I suppose, left more to discover and thinking.

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 15, 2020, 07:27:21 AM

Quote from: murderous_vision on July 14, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Really? Would you like to see any borders in the music/art?

I wouldn't necessarily see this as drawing a border on the art, but possibly (and I think as you later assert) contributing to or augmenting the art. I mean, in a real world slash meaningful sort of way. I think it would probably go without saying that the artist who starts the shit would or possibly should be equally prepared to deal with the repercussions. As part and parcel of the art.

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 15, 2020, 04:39:42 PM
Yeah, Incapacitants is perfect example noise "for the sake of art". I love Incapacitants (frankly speaking better their noise shows than records) but, they are doing the same things almost 40 years, still the same, true autoplagiarism.

I would argue that they are most assuredly not doing the same thing. I am constantly surprised by what they do next, at least recordings-wise. Other than that, agreed!

Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 15, 2020, 06:17:48 PM
I think it would probably go without saying that the artist who starts the shit would or possibly should be equally prepared to deal with the repercussions. As part and parcel of the art.

Spot on. If Dando truly meant for someone to fight back as the ultimate goal of his performance, I'm sure he ultimately understands that most people would think him a dickhead for his actions regardless of the artistic intent. It places no border on art for the artist to understand that their actions are inappropriate when that is the very point of said actions. Or if there is a border there, an artist like Dando doesn't really care about it.

This links back to Mikko's point about the toughness of weathering the repercussions of such actions. You could look at it and say that to voluntarily be the villain by any civilised standards, and sacrifice dignity in the eyes of many, along with any recourse to defence of his actions, that's the "tough" aspect of it. Remove that taboo and the attack becomes pretty impotent and weak, no more transgressive than a rock singer high fiving willing audience members in the front row.

(Bloated Slutbag, please excuse me if I have missed your point entirely or used your words to make a separate point)

That said-

Quote from:  Murderous Visions
Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Con-Dom is probably my favourite PE act, but this tale is so fucking cringe and I would hope these actions not emulated by other acts in the future (not least because it is now just so played out as a tactic). But the points I made above just means that Dando probably does not give a shit what I or anyone else thinks, thus no border can really be imposed by condemning it. Even to [quite rightly] retaliate violently would only validate the artistic intention of the original act. You could even argue that the transgression we value so much can only exist with the taboos we impose ourselves, and we each have our own levels of what we deem acceptable. If I had acted in the way Dando did at that gig i would probably understand that people would want to beat me up.

I should also admit that in my earlier gigs I employed the tactic of lightly antagonising the crowd, which always went down well, but now I cringe at the idea of pretending to be a PE "tough guy" on stage. There are better, subtler tactics that newer artists like me should try to employ for an immersive and aggressive presence on stage.

Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 15, 2020, 06:17:48 PM

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 15, 2020, 07:27:21 AM

Quote from: murderous_vision on July 14, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Really? Would you like to see any borders in the music/art?

I wouldn't necessarily see this as drawing a border on the art, but possibly (and I think as you later assert) contributing to or augmenting the art. I mean, in a real world slash meaningful sort of way. I think it would probably go without saying that the artist who starts the shit would or possibly should be equally prepared to deal with the repercussions. As part and parcel of the art.

Precisely

Quote from: Major Carew on July 15, 2020, 09:14:02 AM

Boys will be boys.

Haha.  I guess the question becomes whether the boys will actually live up to being boys?

Quote from: SILVUM on July 15, 2020, 07:21:53 PM
Sorry, that's just not a global truth, that's your view.  Noise is just sound waves - it's like water, it's movement, and the "destructive" quality is a variable, and with volume knobs and a brain you can focus the sounds.

Nope. Noise, and this isn't only my opinion, isn't only sound waves.
"Exposure to noise is associated with several negative health outcomes. Depending on duration and level of exposure, noise may cause or increase the likelihood of hearing loss, high blood pressure, ischemic heart disease, sleep disturbances, injuries, and even decreased school performance. There are also causal relationships between noise and psychological effects such as annoyance, psychiatric disorders, and effects on psychosocial well-being.

Noise exposure has increasingly been identified as a public health issue, especially in an occupational setting, as demonstrated with the creation of NIOSH's Noise and Hearing Loss Prevention program. Noise has also proven to be an occupational hazard, as it is the most common work-related pollutant. Noise-induced hearing loss, when associated with noise exposure at the workplace is also called occupational hearing loss. (WIKIPEDIA - term NOISE)

Sorry that I pasted it but my English isn't good enough to describe more precisely what I want to write.
Of course you may listen to noise on low level.

Besides, the noise on music level connects to all (anty-)social behaviour, what CON-DOM's live is only a good example (and yes, Dando must know that his action can be source other reaction aggresive against him which he must accept only during his performance).

If you can imagine noise which is source of love and positive energy, it depends on you, you have right to that, we don't talking about exceptions here... I know Blackhouse where noise was used as tool to glorify a Christian God. The art / music isn't a science where (mostly) everything is cleared and proofed. We should seek tendentions, not exceptions.

I guess, to consider Silvum's post further, it depends if you're looking to a singular type music to satisfy your every need.  If you follow other music, or have been involved in other scenes, you might not come to industrial music for outward aggression.  It wouldn't have to be a conscious thing, either.  Get one thing here and another thing there.  I reckon that would be considered compartmentalization.  Or it could be as complex as growing up around constant aggression, so there is some familiarity and comfort in aggression, yet no desire to seek out face-to-face aggression.  To some, that would translate to weakness, while to others it isn't of any consequence at all.  If you like industrial music because it gets your testosterone raging, that's fine, but to think that is the ultimate utility or experience is a bit myopic.

Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 15, 2020, 08:39:02 PM
If you like industrial music because it gets your testosterone raging, that's fine, but to think that is the ultimate utility or experience is a bit myopic.

~

My testosterone raging is useless here. I want to say that noise should be (because of its true, wild and chaotic nature) considered as something what must be connected to human's wild nature, or his discomfort, anti-cultural attitude. "Testosterone raging" is only one of the many examples which many of them may touch more rational and calm behaviour.

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 15, 2020, 08:50:15 PM

Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 15, 2020, 08:39:02 PM
If you like industrial music because it gets your testosterone raging, that's fine, but to think that is the ultimate utility or experience is a bit myopic.

~

My testosterone raging is useless here. I want to say that noise should be (because of its true, wild and chaotic nature) considered as something what must be connected to human's wild nature, or his discomfort, anti-cultural attitude. "Testosterone raging" is only one of the many examples which many of them may touch more rational and calm behaviour.

should be and must be?  I think this is where your general argument falls apart.

Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 15, 2020, 09:22:35 PM
I think this is where your general argument falls apart.

Yes, in the music or art nothing should be or must be. True. But the context of that is main topic here and Dando's attitude which was criticised here and why I decided to take part in this talk. I wanted to say that moral accusations aren't well here because of a nature of noise and unreasonable mix so called "artistic creation" to "ordinary life".

and/or:

Skaters, by their very nature, are urban guerillas.  They make everyday use of the useless artifacts of the technological burden and employ the handiwork of the government/corporate structure in a thousand ways that the original architects could never dream of.
-Craig Stecyk

Quote from: SILVUM on July 15, 2020, 09:49:37 PM
No, noise is sound and sound is waves.  Learn physics.


Those are sounds made by machines NOT meant for humans as listening enjoyment

So decide, you are talking about physics and environmental sounds, or noise as an art? You used term noise in physics way first, not me.

Quote from: SILVUM on July 15, 2020, 09:49:37 PM
You are being willfully obtuse and are engaging in the more structural definition of NOISE as an "opposite" of music (Yes we all know TNB manifesto or whatever nihilistic noise pose people try to take, but we are all sharing cool sounds we enjoy, that's it)..

Cool off...I haven't put any structural definition of NOISE as an "opposite" of music here or there. What do you use drugs?

Quote from: SILVUM on July 15, 2020, 09:49:37 PM
because all sound means nothing, it only has meaning in relation to the observer.

This is only your sentence which is OK for me. Do one step more and think why there is TENDETION in the society/culture/music where noise (music) is based and used to express negative emotions, topics and behaviour?

Quote from: SILVUM on July 15, 2020, 09:49:37 PM
but we are all sharing cool sounds we enjoy, that's it)..

Really? Did I write that somebody does it in different way somewhere?

Quote from: SILVUM on July 15, 2020, 10:24:55 PM

You were so off base I had to say something, your general confusion and language barrier is making it clear I'm not bothering with you.

The fact that you don't grasp that you were quoting environmental defintions is perhaps a big issue.

Good luck, but you have removed yourself from the pool.

Yes, my English is poor, but if it is something hard to understand or not clear - maybe it or worth to ask for clearing? In any case, the most important should be topic here, not a man who is talking about that.

I don't understand the last your sentence. I can only suppose that somebody doesn't accept me or my views here. Cool idea for me. I am not to be part of a bigger piece here ... This isn't problem for me, really.

Quote from: murderous_vision on July 14, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
To my recollect, it was 20 years ago, the woman attacked at GBA was with a significant other, who watched the remainder of the set and stated that we "was gonna kick his ass" or something along those lines. That's your tough guy right there. Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

It's possible that Mike has gotten himself in identical situations I suppose, but seems unlikely. Otherwise, this incident happened at San Francisco Harsh Noise fest (2002-ish) booked by Tim and Bob, where a certain Canadian Noise Artist who works with metal was on the bill and had attended with his wife. Wife attacked Mike during "Sir Nigger" knocking him and his gear over, and then above mentioned Canadian waited around angrily to deal with Mike. Ultimately, nothing came of it. There are pictures floating around, but I was also there and remember it fondly.

re: Tough Guy noise - in my circle of friends this wasn't a pejorative 20 years ago and now it is. The difference being that the old "tough guy" stuff was complex, provocative, ambivalent, confusing, vague, conceptual, contradictory, idiosyncratic, etc (Whitehouse, S Jugend, Con Dom, MB, Genocide Organ, et al) while now there is an extremely high amount of just shallow, same-ish, on the nose, jock type "tough guy" PE. It's like a generation of artists that misunderstood their inspirations. No thanks.

This distinction betrays a subjective valuation of the culture that others will not share, and I am fine with that.

Quote from: SILVUM on July 15, 2020, 10:38:08 PM
Noise, sound and music ARE only physics, but this board is a SPECIAL INTERESTS group of people who are drawn to sound and exploring it and using it for many reasons, and we can engage sounds that are non musical or textural, or are even recordings of dangerous noise, but the results are not explicitly equivalent to NOISE WARNING

Everything is only physics. Such information is useless for us. It is very obvious. I quoted sentences about noise as a sound in health matter only as addition to your terse "noise is only physics". So, you want to see noise only as physics, and me, noise isn't only physics. I see noise as a specific sound in context of art, in context of ethics, in context of society, law, healthy and culture etc.
People/composers has various reasons to create music based on the noise. It is obvious... Everyone of them creates it because of liking it, this activity, this kind of sound. Question is why they use such sound? Some of them use it only for funny play or experimenting; some of them - to express their emotions, and other - to express their more rational and intelectual relation to other people or surrounded world. I think that vast majority  of these composers from mentioned groups/sources of motivations uses noise to show ther more or less hidden dark passions in various aspects. Even if someone uses only abstract noise unwittingly, without basic knowledge about history of music etc, only for fun or joke. Why? Because every man lives in society and is stigmatised by culture. And every composer makes choice what and how does he/she want to do with his time/energy/concept/idea/work. You may recognise it (with using noise to create music) as an accident, but I would like to study it as wider and deeper process which isn't focus only on this one man who decided to use noise. Of course, you or other may think it is useless because nobody is able to check this mind and true inspirations. But for me true composer's inspirations/forces which pushed him to create noise music aren't important (maybe this is main reason why I lost interest in interviews to artists) because noise sound (consciously  or unconsciously created) has (anti-)cultural meaning. Even the abstract noise music which has got many comic/joke and funny moments is opposite to standard and cultural taste and traditional esthetics. If so, everything what is in opposition has got elements of rebellion and will not accept  in the mainstream culture. I don't want to write that my observations are only true experience. When I listen to SMELL & QUIM I have many funny moments but this smile isn't the same when I am laughing in other situations. Their irony packed in noise scenario isn't the same like others, in my opinion, their irony is dark and confrontational in destructive way.

Solipsism.

Quote from: SILVUM on July 16, 2020, 02:42:00 AM
I was discussing the material quality of sound, .

Sound is a vibration FROM things that exist, a similar expression of a wave-complexity density would be water and the waves visibly articulated by the layer where surface and air meet.  That is a "noise" of waves, and it does eat away at coastlines, but to reduce it to JUST destructive, would be very ignorant.  


I agree that there is a huge amount of GUYS that do it, to seem... TOUGH, but that's not an absolute.  Sound is a natural and neutral phenomena of waves in space.  

OK. First of all - do you know anything in music / art what is "an absolute"? I mentioned once or more that we should find tendency, not exceptions. Everything what man can know (especialy in the art) is based on tendency.

Besides my "an absolute" sentences concerned Dando's affair. I was surprised very much when people/composers don't understand such "performance attitude", violence and immoral situations in the industrial/noise/PE shows. I tried to remind what is evident goal in industrial music since 40 years. I don't demand every performer must be dangerous or worrisome.... I am shocked that people, which are part of that, don't understand and don't accept (I suppose) such obvious convention in the industrial music.. That's all.

Explain me, if you may, why sound of nature/field recordings, ambient, new age based on natural sound (so on the noise in your meaning) is used commonly in pop culture as relaxing and hushing music? Why "natural" sound like working of machines/engines and other urban waves, white noise etc. which is also used in noise music, industrial ambient etc. isn't used by people  to relaxing, calm down? Do you think it is problem of taste? Physics? Cultural manipulation? A natural human's defense reaction?

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 16, 2020, 07:57:43 AM
Besides my "an absolute" sentences concerned Dando's affair. I was surprised very much when people/composers don't understand such "performance attitude", violence and immoral situations in the industrial/noise/PE shows. I tried to remind what is evident goal in industrial music since 40 years. I don't demand every performer must be dangerous or worrisome.... I am shocked that people, which are part of that, don't understand and don't accept (I suppose) such obvious convention in the industrial music.. That's all.

Well... if you look how people have been debating and arguing over what is "art" for ages. Mostly for last couple hundred years. With no ability to get into any real conclusion. One can just see that Con-Dom belongs to the lineage of avantgarde art and industrial. Where as many people are from what is simplifiedly said product of splintering pop culture. How the urge and motivation differs vastly. If you go to show, expecting to enjoy loud noise - it may be fulfilled also in Con-Dom set, yet he is not a "noise maker". He does not make or play noise and like actions are not... "gigs".

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 16, 2020, 09:45:43 AM
Well... if you look how people have been debating and arguing over what is "art" for ages. Mostly for last couple hundred years. With no ability to get into any real conclusion. One can just see that Con-Dom belongs to the lineage of avantgarde art and industrial. Where as many people are from what is simplifiedly said product of splintering pop culture. How the urge and motivation differs vastly. If you go to show, expecting to enjoy loud noise - it may be fulfilled also in Con-Dom set, yet he is not a "noise maker". He does not make or play noise and like actions are not... "gigs".

Yeah, and then we may said - everything is coincidence, chaos, there aren't any rules, tendencies - pure postmodernistic reality. We may contest what is noise and how is status of this sound in society and culture. This is a process of pluming and unification - not splintering pop culture. This topic and that one about "Missing..." show us where come from and how important are reasons of total marginalizing idea of "noise", even inside this small enclave of people who declare the same or similar taste of music.

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 16, 2020, 07:57:43 AM
Why "natural" sound like working of machines/engines and other urban waves, white noise etc. which is also used in noise music, industrial ambient etc. isn't used by people  to relaxing, calm down? Do you think it is problem of taste? Physics? Cultural manipulation? A natural human's defense reaction?

Just to point out (i'll continue in the other thread as this is about Tough Guy PE / Industrial) but you can buy white noise relaxation machines, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_noise_machine, and white noise was used by the British Army in Northern to torture suspected Provisional IRA members...

Other than that, noise occurs throughout the electromagnetic spectrum, random movement of electrons, echoes of the big bang. As waves in a medium, air, water... or as waves in no medium. As for it being negative, it can be used as such or thought to be as such. Just as smoke, but smoke also can be used to signal. The idea in semiotics is the sounds of words are arbitrary (noises) but carry a meaning.  Generally noise  is thought to be negative as a disruptive phenomenon in communication. And some noise artists (unlike PE) are not seeking to communicate anything. (i've gone on too much again)

But finally some definitions of sound require a listener, which brings us to the 'tree falling in the forest' philosophical....  doh!

Which is not physics but meta-physics.... face palm!

History repeats itself: http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=2305.0

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 16, 2020, 02:53:23 PM
History repeats itself: http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=2305.0

Ha!  Nobody wanted to talk about generational sociology and tendencies in that thread either, which is the key element, at least in my mind, that Warfare Noise alluded to in their post.  If people are indeed misunderstanding their heroes and context, that's where I'd look for explanation.

"Take notes from Smell & Quim" = humiliate, embarrass or degrade themselves? That seems to be the key element in the performances by them I've witnessed. Whether it's Gillham cutting himself and bleeding everywhere, Simon getting a maraca shoved up his arse, Stewart having his hair cut off, the use of repulsive props, people wearing quite frankly dangerous costumes, or being so piss drunk that you can barely stand up.

Being a "weak guy" is the flipside to being a "tough guy" I guess, and GG Allin is arguably more notorious for what he did to himself than others in the audience. There's also been Con-Dom shows where he's been dominated by women on stage and in the backing projections, so he's not making it a point to go around singling out women to beat up at every show he plays (I can't say I've ever seen him do that when I've seen him live, but maybe that says more about the audience demographics present, ha!). Even that Taiwan performance features him exposing himself like a pathetic flasher in the park.

I suppose it's all a matter of perception and it goes back to what I said about owning your own weaknesses first. Bizarre Uproar for example has certainly explored submission and domination to his own peculiar "strengths". And being punished for your sins - isn't that Christianity in a nutshell?

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 18, 2020, 09:50:11 AM
And being punished for your sins - isn't that Christianity in a nutshell?

No - Jesus is supposed to have taken the wrap for our sins...

But these PE antics go right back... via  The Vienna Actionists et al. to Bacchanalia, and probably further...

Very interesting discussion.
I think toughness for the pure sake of it has its place in Noise. Why, to the contrary, wouldn't it have a place?
Noise by its nature is a genre not at all synonymous with things of comfort.

I think the reason people would disavow the tough guy characteristic, because it makes them uncomfortable and is their nature response / defense to such behavior. Other men especially.

Assholes are not generally liked. I also think that the more hardcore genres of music distend the norms of human behavior more, because many are initially attracted to them to let loose and vent frustration.

The problem is when the "tough guy" is very clearly a persona and not at all genuine. Someone mentioned the "street cred" tough guy, and I despise such a thing. Those types have no sense of identity or purpose, they are only masculine because of certain living conditions, but they don't understand certain virtues of being a man / person, that they balance their tough guy demeanor with a fashionable personality sold to them by the same people shoving a hip-hop down their throats.

It's a shame, really, because most masculine men are of this lost and hopeless variety. It is such a rarity when you actually meet a masculine man with a refined and sophisticated taste in things obscure and of high-quality.
The average punk and metalhead are better than the average hip-hop listener, but they're still mostly lost. The more mainstream fans of Industrial are often better, but they often become one with their scene friends and all adopt a uniform sense of politics and ethics, that they lose their slight individuality with a different herd mentality.
This largely makes up the bulk of hipster politics coming into a scene that is based on transgression and extremeness, and then trying to fool their vain ego that they are iconoclasts, they cannot see their slavish nature which impels them to want to tame down extreme subcultures, and they justify it through their sense of politics and use that as an excuse and a deflection when they attempt to do this.

As a rule, the more obscure a fan base, the more sophisticated and individualistic the enthusiasts.
I can only speak of myself and to my nature. Any music I make that would be classified as "tough guy" is either based on direct experiences of my life or my twisted sense of black humor. Or both.

My cheerful and joyous nature is not usually seen in such underground circles, where the predominant attitude is apathy or misery, in the face of transgressive and taboo subjects.
I feel happiness, and dark aspects of life do not deter this at all for me.

The more obscure the genre, the more senseless it would be to use a "tough persona" because their would be less people to impres with it.
My motivation for making music is one-hundred percent a quest to bring to life certain inexplicable and often fleeting feelings and sensations of the dark aspect of the divine.
Only really recently did I start making my music available online to others, so nothing I do is ever to impress others. I cannot say much promotion has even gone into my music as distribution. I am not buying ads or anything, probably because I am rather off-put by it because the types who usually do are the rap artists who, with no sense of value or virtue, are enslaved to the wheels of the system itself, with its insistence on everybody wanting to be a fucking celebrity, or all the hood kids who insist on being flashy with their money or car, because they saw someone do it on the internet, and these people are dirt fucking poor. Always.

It would be cool to see more people who would be considered tough guys, and are also truly individuals at their core.
Most people window-show for personal identities tailored to them from internet ads, and this is clearly obvious by all the little pigeonholed categories of postmodern society, and these people are followers, they have no fucking clue who they are, yet they infiltrate iconoclastic scenes and infest it with their hipster politics.

This does make some part of the Noise scene, but even those people in it who insist upon identifying with one of the categories of modern society, they are usually more individualistic than more mainstream versions of people identifying with the same thing.

Worship of fame made it this way. Fame in and of itself is largely innocuous and what you make of it, but the NEED for it is certainly pathological, and it's characterised by people who need attention and the approval of mass amounts of strangers. The irony is that people in the underground are viewed as seeking attention, but they largely do not give a fuck how they are viewed.

I have not heard of any "hip-hop" influenced Noise, but I would not be surprised given the fact that the internet made it far easier for different genres to come into contact with each other.
A lot of phrases that pretty much everybody use, like "MOTHERFUCKER" are hip-hop inspired, but I see this more as intentionally stealing from and simultaneously mocking the lingo, at least if for if I were to say it, which is completely different from somebody who is completely serious about their urban lingo, without any irony.

So yeah, testosterone for the sake of testosterone certainly has its place in the Noise scene. But only if it's genuine, and not with the intent to impress people. And it's easy to tell the difference.

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 18, 2020, 11:53:56 AM
Well, even the Vienna Aktionists were relatively late to the game if you want to go down the art history route, even in their own city - look up the Wiener Gruppe/Vienna Group who did antagonistic stuff a few years before them. I recommend the book about them edited by Peter Weibel, which includes such delights as Konrad Bayer and Gerhard Ruhm's poem 'shitting and pissing' with its prototypical PE lyrics that straddles into Aristocrats territory, or the collage artworks they produced using found photographs of pornographic acts, dissected corpses, war atrocities, medical abnormalities, crude drawings of penises pointing towards a baby's anus, etc etc...

Relatively late i guess so. There is it seems a whole history of the idea of 'misrule'  and given the topic of tough guy i also guess it excludes the Maenads... proto Riot grrrls??

i dont often like to voice an opinion on this kind of thing.... but did this really get to 7 pages without anyone even mentioning that PE actually, probably, should be about the 'tough guy' shit? or did i just miss it - i did skim when the thread seemed to turn into the usual 'what is noise, what is sound, what is art' conversation... but if it really got this far without anyone saying that PE always has been, and always should be, about that 'tough guy' shit... then man i am really disconnected to whatever scene this is now. to me, it always has been about the 'tough guy' shit... to me, there should be no 'tough guy' sub-genre of PE - rather "PC-PE" should get the bastardized sub-genre label.

its like saying 'i like black metal - but does it always have to be about satan, suicide, wintry forests at night?' uh yes, it most certainly does!

likewise if a PE band makes some multicultural humanist peace and love anthem... personally i just wouldnt call it PE. the spirit counts for something, and counts a lot when differentiating nuances between the genres that fall under the blanket of 'noise'. and with PE that spirit should be ugly, violent, mean, intolerant, uncomfortable, depraved, etc! i mean the genre was founded on the very things some people seem to be complaining about it now. really - there is no need to compare it to, or lump it in with 'noise' like, uh, merzbow... PE is often musical, noise never is. they are similar only in their use of extreme sounds, but surely those whove been listening awhile realize the sounds are used completely different. i dont think the 'no rules in noise' angle applies to PE since i put PE more in line with music then harsh noise anyway. noise is inherently open to interpretation... PE usually strives to make its intentions known, and felt. the nastiest noise should naturally deal with the nastiest of subjects.

i cant believe the fans of pe and harash noise seem to have such distaste for the other?! surely we can all appreciate the best aspects of both, and if taboo subject matter isn't your thing then fine... but how could one say albums by taint or grunt are just 'meat head shit' just because of the subject matter. that is some serious nonsense.

those claiming it is shock tactics - another irrelovent argument which would apply only to a minority of bands that could be found in any genre. who is really shocked at this point? maybe it was shocking to you at first (i'd label it 'fascinating'), and maybe the shock has worn off to the complainers... though i'm guessing those people dont have human bones, weapons, true crime memorabilia, fetish pornography and a stash of hard drugs next to your soon-to-be-sold PE records about those same subjects... but many of us do, and have for as long or longer then we've had the PE collection. and neither are going anywhere!

Quote from: collapsedhole on July 18, 2020, 02:18:13 PM
i dont often like to voice an opinion on this kind of thing.... but did this really get to 7 pages without anyone even mentioning that PE actually, probably, should be about the 'tough guy' shit? or did i just miss it - i did skim when the thread seemed to turn into the usual 'what is noise, what is sound, what is art' conversation... but if it really got this far without anyone saying that PE always has been, and always should be, about that 'tough guy' shit... then man i am really disconnected to whatever scene this is now. to me, it always has been about the 'tough guy' shit... to me, there should be no 'tough guy' sub-genre of PE - rather "PC-PE" should get the bastardized sub-genre label.

its like saying 'i like black metal - but does it always have to be about satan, suicide, wintry forests at night?' uh yes, it most certainly does!

likewise if a PE band makes some multicultural humanist peace and love anthem... personally i just wouldnt call it PE. the spirit counts for something, and counts a lot when differentiating nuances between the genres that fall under the blanket of 'noise'. and with PE that spirit should be ugly, violent, mean, intolerant, uncomfortable, depraved, etc! i mean the genre was founded on the very things some people seem to be complaining about it now. really - there is no need to compare it to, or lump it in with 'noise' like, uh, merzbow... PE is often musical, noise never is. they are similar only in their use of extreme sounds, but surely those whove been listening awhile realize the sounds are used completely different. i dont think the 'no rules in noise' angle applies to PE since i put PE more in line with music then harsh noise anyway. noise is inherently open to interpretation... PE usually strives to make its intentions known, and felt. the nastiest noise should naturally deal with the nastiest of subjects.

i cant believe the fans of pe and harash noise seem to have such distaste for the other?! surely we can all appreciate the best aspects of both, and if taboo subject matter isn't your thing then fine... but how could one say albums by taint or grunt are just 'meat head shit' just because of the subject matter. that is some serious nonsense.

those claiming it is shock tactics - another irrelovent argument which would apply only to a minority of bands that could be found in any genre. who is really shocked at this point? maybe it was shocking to you at first (i'd label it 'fascinating'), and maybe the shock has worn off to the complainers... though i'm guessing those people dont have human bones, weapons, true crime memorabilia, fetish pornography and a stash of hard drugs next to your soon-to-be-sold PE records about those same subjects... but many of us do, and have for as long or longer then we've had the PE collection. and neither are going anywhere!

I could agree with much of this, and it would be for those into P.E. to say otherwise. I did compare P.E. to Expressionism, and noise to Abstract Expressionism to get a feel for the difference. The latter not being related to (violent)  human feelings. And i did say this could be what is identified as a rift. Noise, HN being in S.Mckinley's term thought of as more 'pure', conversely those into PE / Expressionism that this is more "Real". You dont get the visceral notions of say a Francis Bacon painting in a Barnett Newman.

I don't go to shows

Quote from: collapsedhole on July 18, 2020, 02:18:13 PMif a PE band makes some multicultural humanist peace and love anthem... personally i just wouldnt call it PE. the spirit counts for something, and counts a lot when differentiating nuances between the genres that fall under the blanket of 'noise'. and with PE that spirit should be ugly, violent, mean, intolerant, uncomfortable, depraved, etc! i mean the genre was founded on the very things some people seem to be complaining about it now. really - there is no need to compare it to, or lump it in with 'noise' like, uh, merzbow... PE is often musical, noise never is. they are similar only in their use of extreme sounds, but surely those whove been listening awhile realize the sounds are used completely different. i dont think the 'no rules in noise' angle applies to PE since i put PE more in line with music then harsh noise anyway. noise is inherently open to interpretation... PE usually strives to make its intentions known, and felt. the nastiest noise should naturally deal with the nastiest of subjects.

If power electronics as a genre has these strict limitations it'll only repeat itself in an endless circle and the very effective shock tactics of the first and second waves will get boring very fast. I guess we all have a weak spot for violence & gore but for me the contemporary standout acts usually offer a different view. Like the overlooked æþel electronics LP from last year which didn't really stand out sound wise but the medieval theme made me come back for more.

Also, covering tough subjects (produce vile sounds, write a few lyrics about rape and murder and cut 'n paste a few corpses/concentration camps) does not make you a tough guy. On the contrary, 90% of evil black metal warriors, PE-nihilists or RAC-hooligans turn out to be friendly nerds when you meet them in person. Other 10% are usually assholes and maybe a few tough guys. Not saying this is good or bad, just my personal experience.

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likewise if a PE band makes some multicultural humanist peace and love anthem... personally i just wouldnt call it PE. the spirit counts for something, and counts a lot when differentiating nuances between the genres that fall under the blanket of 'noise'. and with PE that spirit should be ugly, violent, mean, intolerant, uncomfortable, depraved ...

Just to make sure I understood your point: if you consider the energy and the attitude in PE to be the decisive factor, would music that has the requisite spirit, but not the "typical" PE sound, still to be within the PE spectrum?

I think you're being deliberately disingenuous.

Quote from: Atrophist on July 19, 2020, 03:45:24 AM
Just to make sure I understood your point: if you consider the energy and the attitude in PE to be the decisive factor, would music that has the requisite spirit, but not the "typical" PE sound, still to be within the PE spectrum?

Even if this could be disingenous, I think it is still relevant question. Many times you get the notion that noise+vocals = power electronics. It has been recently expressed on topics and this seems how it is perceived by a lot of new people. I do not think that mentioned equation is correct. Just surface level. Without context it will be just noise+vocals = noise. Which is not a bad thing. It can be even as great thing as Masonna and Incapacitants.

Quote from: Atrophist on July 19, 2020, 03:45:24 AM

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likewise if a PE band makes some multicultural humanist peace and love anthem... personally i just wouldnt call it PE. the spirit counts for something, and counts a lot when differentiating nuances between the genres that fall under the blanket of 'noise'. and with PE that spirit should be ugly, violent, mean, intolerant, uncomfortable, depraved ...

Just to make sure I understood your point: if you consider the energy and the attitude in PE to be the decisive factor, would music that has the requisite spirit, but not the "typical" PE sound, still to be within the PE spectrum?

certainly not always the decisive factor. but definitely in some cases. when comparing very similar yet intrinsically different forms of noise, it all has to get factored in. of course i wouldn't call any type of nasty noise power electronics unless all the parts are working together... which is usually a conscious choice done deliberately by the artist to make sure they are either lumped in with, or differentiated from, PE.

Quote from: burdizzo on July 19, 2020, 10:54:44 AM
I think you're being deliberately disingenuous.

What makes you think so?

I assure you that I am genuinely curious. It's interesting to me how people view these things.

Quote from: collapsedhole on July 19, 2020, 02:19:18 PM

certainly not always the decisive factor. but definitely in some cases. when comparing very similar yet intrinsically different forms of noise, it all has to get factored in. of course i wouldn't call any type of nasty noise power electronics unless all the parts are working together... which is usually a conscious choice done deliberately by the artist to make sure they are either lumped in with, or differentiated from, PE.

Okay, thanks. Genre definitions and "what makes X, X" discussions are always ... ("cough, cough") problematic for me. In a sense, as soon as you identify yourself as opetating within a certain genre, you sre basically admitting that you want to sound like someone who came before you. Not that there is anything wrong with that as such, but it certainly would seem to be at odds with the idea of appreciating and seeking originality in everything that is so prevalent today. These discussions never end, because sooner or later someone who disagrees will come along, and there will be nothing that will reasonably make that person's opinion less valid than anybody else's.

Quote from: Atrophist on July 19, 2020, 03:45:24 AM

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likewise if a PE band makes some multicultural humanist peace and love anthem... personally i just wouldnt call it PE. the spirit counts for something, and counts a lot when differentiating nuances between the genres that fall under the blanket of 'noise'. and with PE that spirit should be ugly, violent, mean, intolerant, uncomfortable, depraved ...

Just to make sure I understood your point: if you consider the energy and the attitude in PE to be the decisive factor, would music that has the requisite spirit, but not the "typical" PE sound, still to be within the PE spectrum?

This is interesting, and it makes me think of the live split album that came out a few years ago between Axnaar, Roases, Bizarre Uproar, and Xenophobic Ejaculation. Axnaar is definitely noisy black metal, but has an attitude/style that fits perfectly alongside power electronics.

Quotelikewise if a PE band makes some multicultural humanist peace and love anthem... personally i just wouldnt call it PE.

Con-Dom 'ebony & ivory' could fit this description. On face value, at least.

Quotethe spirit counts for something, and counts a lot when differentiating nuances between the genres that fall under the blanket of 'noise'. and with PE that spirit should be ugly, violent, mean, intolerant, uncomfortable, depraved ...

What would you consider the likes of Shallow Waters, Barrikad, Mourmansk150?

I do appreciate where you are coming from, but there is no reason that content from Streicher (right), Militia (left) and Con Dom (neither) should not share space on the same release (War Against Society). Or not be considered different iterations of the same substance.

"Tough Guy" by Beastie Boys from an all-time classic "Ill Communication".)

Quote from: APPLE on July 19, 2020, 07:15:25 PM

Quotethe spirit counts for something, and counts a lot when differentiating nuances between the genres that fall under the blanket of 'noise'. and with PE that spirit should be ugly, violent, mean, intolerant, uncomfortable, depraved ...

What would you consider the likes of Shallow Waters, Barrikad, Mourmansk150?

i'd consider shallow waters the most straight up PE of those three of course. i have only heard comp tracks from the other two, but from what i remember theyre on that aforementioned 'PE spectrum'.

political affiliation doesn't really matter - as long as there is anger, frustration, disgust, tension... some exploration of... power... either as the oppressed or the oppressor... well as long as the content deals with a topic that really warrants such emotions... if i was really pissed off about having to wear a mask in public because of coronavirus that would be silly no matter how pissed i truely was about it. then we get into real hair splitting about personal ideals, what is actually silly... too much thought, not enough PE, haha... in that case the point would already be missed!

i was slightly exaggerating in my statement of 'peace and love anthem'... surely anyone genuinely interested in spreading that message can find a more appropriate genre then PE to get that across, i can't really think of any happy go lucky PE tracks.

To me "tough guy" PE just means by default "normal guy" who isn't wearing all modern styled clear framed glasses on a soy diet, who looks like good ole indrogenious Pat! Like much of the modern "wimps" of today maybe? That's my imagination of that sentiment or take away if you will.

Quote from: Cranial Blast on January 08, 2024, 02:15:14 AMTo me "tough guy" PE just means by default "normal guy" who isn't wearing all modern styled clear framed glasses on a soy diet, who looks like good ole indrogenious Pat! Like much of the modern "wimps" of today maybe? That's my imagination of that sentiment or take away if you will.

I think that "tough guy" PE, or "kovisnoise", is more about the themes, general vibe and appreance of some "modern" PE artists than someones diet or beverage preferences.

For example, in Finland almost no one would recognize the IFOTS, Whitehouse or Genocide Organ as "tough guy" PE, but something like Sadio, XE, Grunt and F&V stuff in general would be the perfect embodiment of that idiom.

has it already been noted that tough guy is often an insult in the states? It denotes posturing. It usually either means something like "you're just talk" or "yea, you're clearly capable of tremendous violence, but you are dumb as fuck." I think it's american idiomatic and you'd have to hear the tone but I wonder if it's used that way elsewhere?

Quote from: Bigsby on January 13, 2024, 02:57:13 AMhas it already been noted that tough guy is often an insult in the states? It denotes posturing. It usually either means something like "you're just talk" or "yea, you're clearly capable of tremendous violence, but you are dumb as fuck." I think it's american idiomatic and you'd have to hear the tone but I wonder if it's used that way elsewhere?

Yeah, it is also somewhat an insult term here too. Mainly in sarcastic sense and tone, implying that the percieved "tough guy" antics are applied for cheap provocation or posing purposes