The tough guy thread reminded me of this but its something I've noticed in particular in more recent years. At least in America it seems that the rift between PE and Harsh Noise fans/artists is growing steadily. It usually feels like the HN folks are usually the first ones to denounce or make negative comments about PE. Just my observations over the years how rarely I hear PE artists talk poorly about HN as a genre and actually half if not more tend to be HN fans as well.
I see/hear none of this that can be taken as more than mere comments on an individual's personal taste. The many varied orders people make via the distro would contribute to the argument that there is no rift at all, or at least no change compared to how things have been some time. There are certainly people who only order only HN or only PE (and in fact I would say that there are more folks inclined to order only PE than vice versa), but the majority of orders are absolute mixed bags and to me showcase a really blossoming "scene" of people just simply being down with the magnitude of great material coming out seemingly daily at this point.
In America?
Or on this forum, among American users?
I think you're just noticing a few loud voices. Personally, as far as sales through the label, its the opposite. I get way more orders of people only getting the available power-electronics releases (as opposed to people only buying harsh noise). The rest of the orders tend to be a mixed bag - harsh noise, drone, industrial, PE, and so on... I think it may have something to do with people newer to experimental music, coming out of metal/punk/hardcore, who are chasing their initial interest in power-electronics.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 16, 2020, 02:34:59 AM
The tough guy thread reminded me of this but its something I've noticed in particular in more recent years. At least in America it seems that the rift between PE and Harsh Noise fans/artists is growing steadily. It usually feels like the HN folks are usually the first ones to denounce or make negative comments about PE. Just my observations over the years how rarely I hear PE artists talk poorly about HN as a genre and actually half if not more tend to be HN fans as well.
I share similar experience and obseravations. I suppose that HN is a ultra radical style of music, behind that is nothing. PE is considered as something less radical (as intense of sound), so as something worse.
Quote from: W.K. on July 16, 2020, 03:27:00 AM
In America?
Or on this forum, among American users?
I think this depends on country, most of all probably size.
When Troniks/Chondritic forum was up and running the strongest, basically every time one talked about PE or industrial, especially any band who had notch darker content, there was influx of wise ass & dismissive comments from "people with other tastes". The big boys of forum decided that what if they open section solely for PE and related. Due massive amount of topics on that forum, it enabled both find the info you wanted and avoid the info you did not want.
When SI forum was opened, for first it was clearly predominantly PE/industrial noise section of that board that shifted here.
Like the distro owners describe, absurdexposition and:
Quote from: New Forces on July 16, 2020, 03:56:21 AM
Personally, as far as sales through the label, its the opposite. I get way more orders of people only getting the available power-electronics releases (as opposed to people only buying harsh noise). The rest of the orders tend to be a mixed bag - harsh noise, drone, industrial, PE, and so on... I think it may have something to do with people newer to experimental music, coming out of metal/punk/hardcore, who are chasing their initial interest in power-electronics.
My experience is that the people who buy and listen, are basically for anything good. I would also observe that "political", "sexual", "social" matters are not really obsolete or meaningless, but most people listen things for other things than dogmatically boosting up the identity politics. Some curate very strict and aesthetically uniform collection of "arty experimental" or "vile filth", but vast majority take Kjostad and Being releases with ZyklonSS and Bizarre Uproar, in same order.
Even if I have put mission statement of SI to fix that rift (in form of including all sorts of noise in magazine etc), I think it is not something what can or even should be fixed. If one absolutely wants no frills crunchy noise, its pointless to push conceptual keyboard music with processed vocals for him - on individual level. As forum, distro or magazine, one can obviously advance the morphosis to desired direction.
I think the dislike and even hatred for PE has been there since early days. One just have to look at how GPO felt about Whitehouse, and similar views were not uncommon. Amount of critical opinions are vast and been there for 40 years. Nowadays it feels that reactions are more
petty. If there is any of secondary or lesser importance, a minor thing, somewhere, sometime - that seems to be element that will cause reaction by people who tend to focus on reacting on such things. It is not that big deal.
My two penny worth to this "interesting" topic.
Industrial, Power Electronics, Noise, Harsh Noise, Harsh Noise Wall. The difficulty with categories, though useful, is that now (post Aristotle) categories blend into each other. Yet there are obvious differences at some point. I think this occurs in the 'music' of which we are discussing here, but, and this might help, it is not a unique phenomena. So whilst Expressionism in art was very much about the human (negative) condition, and could be seen to relate to Industrial and PE, Abstract Expressionism which 'evolved' from Expressionism was not, or became not. The Jackson Pollock fields of colour are more cosmological that anthropological, yet derived in his work from his paintings of human conflict. Likewise serialism was 'expressive' of a human condition, but likewise became abstracted. To the extent that this art expresses nothing. Ad Reinhardt's famous "Art is Art and everything else is everything else". And similar kinds of things occurred in Poetry.. and so called minimal art, and minimalism in music.
Noise (IMO) when not modified to express is no different to such extreme (Ultimate) paintings. And so whilst a white Malevich might be thought 'mystical' is it any different in its communicative ability than a white Rauschenberg or the First Communion of Anaemic Young Girls In The Snow - Alphonse Allais...
So whilst Industrial or PE artists can by manipulation of sound express stuff, at the limit of pure noise, sans difference, nothing can be expressed, except perhaps 'being'. (which i guess is where even Vomir fails)
P.S. (The rift!) That minimalism was considered better than what went before, like maybe noise was / is considered better than PE, was its 'purity', less is more of modernism. But to quote The great Noddy Holder, Moma we are all crazy now....
Not to derail the thread any more than JLIAT has done, but I'm appreciating reading these responses from distro owners who have demonstrable evidence of the tastes of their customers, what influence they (either the distros or the customers) may have in shaping them/following the crowd, and so on. Labels have a very one-sided perspective of which people are buying what, but the broader perspective and customer data of distros and shop owners surely presents a wider picture, even if it's within the specific niches of noise and/or PE. At the same time, I'd be very interested to know what makes a customer decide to order from which shops or distros. Do customers simply cherry pick certain titles from a distro due to their price and availability at that given moment, or have larger associations (good or bad) or reliances been created? Obviously it's the dream of a distro or shop to have regularly returning customers, but I would love to know more about how that has happened either intentionally or organically (and without too many secrets being revealed). I understand this subject has been suggested as a future feature for the SI magazine, so it's probably more deserving of attention and preservation as a print article rather than a fleeting forum thread. Still, if distro heads have further comments to make along these lines then I fully welcome them.
Quote from: theotherjohn on July 16, 2020, 11:14:51 AM
Not to derail the thread any more than JLIAT has done,
How is derailing the thread providing a possible, (note) answer to the topic?
"the
purification of the Japanese harsh noise scene into a
more refined crunch,
which crystallizes the tonal qualities of distortion in a slow moving minimalistic texture." - correction, David Novak p.57, Japanoise. Cites McKinley by using these terms - "best" "harshest" ...
I think making something more pure is seen by some a progressive improvement - which is a typical moderist idea. Less is more etc. Hense the rift.
Quote from: theotherjohn on July 16, 2020, 11:14:51 AM
I'd be very interested to know what makes a customer decide to order from which shops or distros.
I experienced one main rule - relation. The more well-known act / composer - the better sale, the bigger interest. So, the same situation as in the pop music/culture. Frankly speaking this mentality of allegedly "independent" customers greatly contributed to stop my label activity.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 16, 2020, 11:32:45 AM
Quote from: theotherjohn on July 16, 2020, 11:14:51 AM
I'd be very interested to know what makes a customer decide to order from which shops or distros.
I experienced one main rule - relation. The more well-known act / composer - the better sale, the bigger interest. So, the same situation as in the pop music/culture. Frankly speaking this mentality of allegedly "independent" customers greatly contributed to stop my label activity.
My experience is quite different. There are number of high profile known names, that are respected and wanted. Yet being well known in my experience is almost irrelevant. As example, I always sell more and faster fresh new up & coming noise artists than M.B., Merzbow, Masonna, Hijokaidan, and so on. Sometimes, but not always, it may be reflection of magnitude of discography. It is far easier in 2020 to sell debut album of unknown but fairly interesting artist than say yet another Atrax Morgue reissue LP.
This topic is of course not really related to "the rift".
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 16, 2020, 12:20:57 PM
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 16, 2020, 11:32:45 AM
Quote from: theotherjohn on July 16, 2020, 11:14:51 AM
I'd be very interested to know what makes a customer decide to order from which shops or distros.
I experienced one main rule - relation. The more well-known act / composer - the better sale, the bigger interest. So, the same situation as in the pop music/culture. Frankly speaking this mentality of allegedly "independent" customers greatly contributed to stop my label activity.
My experience is quite different. There are number of high profile known names, that are respected and wanted. Yet being well known in my experience is almost irrelevant. As example, I always sell more and faster fresh new up & coming noise artists than M.B., Merzbow, Masonna, Hijokaidan, and so on. Sometimes, but not always, it may be reflection of magnitude of discography. It is far easier in 2020 to sell debut album of unknown but fairly interesting artist than say yet another Atrax Morgue reissue LP.
This topic is of course not really related to "the rift".
Not on topic - and i've no experience of distribution, but might not those seeking the non "big names" which can be found in record stores and Amazon etc. seek out more
'specialist' and singular artists in those sites which promote and distribute such work, in order to widen their tastes / interests.
reminds me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECyX8A3iP0
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 16, 2020, 12:20:57 PM
coming noise artists than M.B., Merzbow, Masonna, Hijokaidan, and so onartist than say yet another Atrax Morgue reissue LP.
Jeeezz, these names are so big that I can dream only about releasing their albums. So, I didn't mean "such big names". In any case - our experience is different and, of course, mine is less opinion-forming because of much more less range in the circle.
Interesting topic- I have no access to a computer for a while but feel compelled to put my 2 cents in, even if it means typing on my phone, so probably will be scattered and incomplete.
In short: I see noise in its pure sense as an empty emotional vessel. That the power and chaos of this type of sound allows to unlock deeper meaning or illumination through the introspective experience of the listener. The sound in itself is actually "superficial" in that it's free of content or meaning. There may be some inherent erotic qualities to it I think, but that may also be subjective experience.
"Power Electronics" is actually quite far off from noise in it's function for me I've come to realize (over the years). PE is loaded with specific information, especially when there is a human voice delivering lyrics. The presence of this is alone changes the experience dramatically from listening to pure noise. The "sounds" thrmselves are also often very closely related to traditional western music (Especially when we talk about "industrial") More 4/4 rhythmic patters, calculated 4 minute song structures, melodic elements, and the predictable vocal cadence. Sure, it may be noisy and chaotic, but it's basically deconstructed music. This is of course not a devaluation of PE, it just is a different type of music with a different type of effect.
As for criticism of the "content" of PE, that's a whole different beast. I'm sure I'm not going to cover all my ground here, but my attraction to PE and the "darker side" of noise as Mikko has put it, is that in its best cases, it gives honest language to evil and power - something which is rarely done in art. The thing is, I find that it often stops there, and the argument that it's "dealing with" certain topics to be an overstatement for most PE artists. Rather in most cases it is simply exploiting them. This is certainly OK and can be fascinating and, depending on what kind of person you are and what your values are, continuously so. But for others, the amount of time needed to wallow in this specific pool is limited.
Quote from: JLIAT on July 16, 2020, 12:30:20 PMNot on topic - and i've no experience of distribution, but might not those seeking the non "big names" which can be found in record stores and Amazon etc. seek out more 'specialist' and singular artists in those sites which promote and distribute such work, in order to widen their tastes / interests.
reminds me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECyX8A3iP0
This topic can be divided from "the rift" as its own if it catches on to grow more.
Yes, there is so many variables. Item that is widely available and being pressed a lot, clearly indicates that it may be in more demand, but small noise label barely moves Merz CD that is pressed 1000 copies as it has been available "everywhere". Same can be said of titles that every distributor carries.
However, many names I mentioned, have releases that are editions of 100-200, and not even that expensive, and they still do not move in the way like some newbie noise issued on tape, edition of +-100. One can make assumption that new guys would prefer to hear new stuff instead of decades old stuff. Good thing. Or people have enough of artist X in their shelves and they prefer to give it a try for Y. Which may be also good thing.
One negative aspect that I can connect to this, is that several good artists, who formerly put out proper albums, seem to fall into gap of having nobody to release/distribute stuff, and big names end up putting out digital releases (that do not interest me) or lazy CDR that is available nowhere.
Quote from: WCN on July 16, 2020, 12:50:21 PM
As for criticism of the "content" of PE, that's a whole different beast. I'm sure I'm not going to cover all my ground here, but my attraction to PE and the "darker side" of noise as Mikko has put it, is that in its best cases, it gives honest language to evil and power - something which is rarely done in art. The thing is, I find that it often stops there, and the argument that it's "dealing with" certain topics to be an overstatement for most PE artists. Rather in most cases it is simply exploiting them. This is certainly OK and can be fascinating and, depending on what kind of person you are and what your values are, continuously so. But for others, the amount of time needed to wallow in this specific pool is limited.
I recall
Cipher stating in social media in event of Keith of Mania/Taint passing away, and I quote it from there:
"Keith represents a voice in the noise/industrial lexicon which I fear is being pushed into a corner - the last place he would or should ever be - and I'm so pleased to see so many of you share your memories of him and his work."I don't think there is other musical genre that deal with society or existence in general like old school industrial / PE. Of course, I am not aware of every artists and possibly not every genre of sound, but as far as I know it is fairly unique.
If there would be for example, death metal group making songs involving somewhat related topics, you can bet it has very different discourse going on. More akin to sleazy exploitation films and reaching level of comedy, than... say "dark". This is of course not to dismiss the juvenile sleaze. It has its place.
Anyways, I have so often repeated my conclusions, but I'd say that PE is rarely
telling how it is. There is so much on responsibility of listener that it really is not the flaw of art itself if it doesn't always work. One analysis on how art is being dealt with, is that one commit in it. Learns to experience as see. Other way is just swallow it. Besides these, of course, is just dismiss and reject. The ones, who just flat out reject stating that there is nothing to be found: I get it as personal statement. That's as far as it is accurate.
In danger of crossing over with tough guy topic, I must say that one absolutely can not convince someone, why "negative energy" would be thing to revolve with IF he absolutely hates all that. You know, how to explain the atmosphere of bonehead live-show to someone who absolutely doesn't want to see fights that may escalate to level of... lets say not just someone falling on their asses in the pit. Such negative energy and bad vibes is something that most people do not need or want. Often even oppose. Either by laughing for it's stupidity or being cautious of its harmful nature. One can not deny this dark side of culture has substance quite different from things that are predominantly positive, creative and constructive. Of course I am not advocation noise shows should be of negative vibes of this type. Not at all.
Industrial/PE, for me, has the both merged. To various degrees. The fact that artist may not be "telling how it is", is not lack of substance. It may just mean that just to
swallow it, makes little sense. And why Cipher quote was necessary, I firmly believe that there is nowadays vastly more intent to just swallow or/and reject, not to commit.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 16, 2020, 01:19:29 PM
Industrial/PE, for me, has the both merged. To various degrees. The fact that artist may not be "telling how it is", is not lack of substance. It may just mean that just to swallow it, makes little sense. And why Cipher quote was necessary, I firmly believe that there is nowadays vastly more intent to just swallow or/and reject, not to commit.
I don't share such opinion. I believe you mean "industrial" as so called "old school industrial" or something what becomes from TG, SPK, CV rock music tradition. If so, PE is dramaticaly different than this "industrial". Not only in shape of music esthetics, but in out-of-sound context, so in the area of relation to people, society and culture on the every level. So called industrial touched similar topics as PE but, I hope I will understand well, it made because of need change humanity, correct culture, transgression to the better life. I think that PE hadn't such ambitions, had different goals. PE didn't care about changing human/culture, PE glorified all anticulture phenomenas because of radical nihilism and hard-line attitude which was directed against humanity without will change or correct it. Pure misogyny and misanthropy with terror culture on every level without any form of spirituality which was so important in industrial too. So this is reason why PE is more "industrial" and "anticulture" and more true wrecker of civilisation than hippie TG who wanted to change this world.
Although doesn't cover all intentions of PE artists (or those who are generally put into this category), but overall impression may be fine. There is rarely *pure* categories, so it is more splitting hairs than talking of the reality.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 16, 2020, 02:25:10 PM
Although doesn't cover all intentions of PE artists (or those who are generally put into this category), but overall impression may be fine. There is rarely *pure* categories, so it is more splitting hairs than talking of the reality.
Purism (not mention a style in paintings) doesn't exist in the art, especially in the music. But you admit that the beginnings in PE were "pure"? Talking about reality is boring :)
Quote from: New Forces on July 16, 2020, 03:56:21 AM
I think it may have something to do with people newer to experimental music, coming out of metal/punk/hardcore, who are chasing their initial interest in power-electronics.
I think this is a big factor too, at least based on my observations of customers from the distro. There is a significant portion of people who go exclusively for the newer popular PE/industrial related stuff, and I get the sense they are younger and newer to this general field of music. There are not many who will strictly only buy HN stuff, but rather many people who go for noise stuff with rather eclectic tastes.
On a personal level, this is where my distaste/disinterest in a lot of PE mainly comes from. A lot it, particularly the newer stuff, seems very influenced by hardcore and metal, which is something I can only take in small doses.
Where does this rift manifest aside from this forum?
Quote from: Eigen Bast on July 16, 2020, 07:32:12 PM
Where does this rift manifest aside from this forum?
Labels, distros, podcasts, zines, gigs, festivals...?
I would assume rift is almost smallest on this forum?
I couldn't say for sure if there were a rift or not, but I would certainly hope so!
I suppose that is a reasonable way of looking at it. Harsh Noisers will be the ones w/ BLM on their facebook profiles?!
It could be political?
In my experience (with harsh noise friends/producers), quite often they don't listen to PE because it's "nazi/fascist crap" (of course most of them see nazis everywhere), and it's pretty common that a lot of them automatically associated PE with far right contents.
I don't even know what PE and HN is. I think the biggest rift i notice is between myself and SI and this nonsense. In a dream i might accidentally create a rift between noise and HN. Where HN killed the already old cow that was noise. Unless Macro cover bands gets you excited. And when whatever-it-was became PE (as defined here) you got a finn with G'n'R & RAC albums in one paw and Adolf in the other. I woke up and realized all of it sucks. But most of all i felt embarrassed for posting here.
It's interesting --and I don't say this rhetorically, because it is happening everywhere these days, or at least it is more common in my experience-- that anyone would argue that, or at least question that, this isn't happening because they personally haven't experienced it or don't/can't see it. Others are saying it is happening and are sharing experiences that it is happening. It's like this twilight zone perspective extension "out of sight, out of mind" blown into another region of "it isn't in my experience, so I question its existence." A culture that lacks both self-awareness and empathy is straight-up blind and purely and entirely selfish.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 18, 2020, 08:40:08 PM
It's interesting --and I don't say this rhetorically, because it is happening everywhere these days, or at least it is more common in my experience-- that anyone would argue that, or at least question that, this isn't happening because they personally haven't experienced it or don't/can't see it. Others are saying it is happening and are sharing experiences that it is happening. It's like this twilight zone perspective extension "out of sight, out of mind" blown into another region of "it isn't in my experience, so I question its existence." A culture that lacks both self-awareness and empathy is straight-up blind and purely and entirely selfish.
Well put
I think that's a weird read of some innocuous comments. Who in this thread has even shared a single experience related to this "rift" beyond some anectdotal commentary on aversion to content? What labels, festivals, zines are actively dividing fans of these disparate genres? I don't fuck with social media though, so maybe these battles are being fought in a realm beyond my reckoning.
I wish there was a true rift! I wish me and the harsh noise gang were going over to the PE bar to toss molotovs through the windows later, but alas...all I have is this thread...
Quote from: Eigen Bast on July 19, 2020, 12:41:34 AM
I think that's a weird read of some innocuous comments. Who in this thread has even shared a single experience related to this "rift" beyond some anectdotal commentary on aversion to content? What labels, festivals, zines are actively dividing fans of these disparate genres? I don't fuck with social media though, so maybe these battles are being fought in a realm beyond my reckoning.
I wish there was a true rift! I wish me and the harsh noise gang were going over to the PE bar to toss molotovs through the windows later, but alas...all I have is this thread...
You're right. As I poorly worded it, I maybe implied people are sharing experiences of physical altercations? I doubt that. I hope not. That would be silly. But FreakAnimalFinland, and others, thus the discussion, have noticed it in spirit. Does that make it any less real or unworthy of discussion? Doesn't seem like it.
*maybe "rift" isn't the best term to use for this discussion. I continue to be baffled that noiseheads don't have interest in all things experimental. Or ambient folk locking themselves in a closet of interest. Or whoever with similar limits. So what do I know?
Well, I run a small power electronics/ industrial/ martial night in Dublin, and the Harsh Noise crowd in Dublin have banned me and a few others from their shows. Utterly pathetic carry-on, but it does happen. And it has to do w/ perceived outlook - the whole thing kicked off when the girlfriend of one of the HN main movers (who had always been friendly and supportive, in fact) spotted my FB profile, had a kitten, and next thing y'r man was pussy-whipped into bannings and doxxings, etc. I suppose that could be called a 'rift'? Same fella had attended our night, and even DJ-ed at it, in the past, and I had attended shows of his but, alas, no more... But, as you say, both 'factions' should appreciate something from the other.
@ zeno, I see you on that; when I think of a 'rift' I picture a distinct split within a genre, a breaking point where aesthetics and sonics diverge aggressively. E.g. hardcore's numerous fractures; crust, straight edge, 'beatdown', metalcore, etc etc. Productive, and destructive, but ultimately sublimating the genre into dozens of strands that ultimately evolve their own cultures. While industrial culture spans the breadth of commercial music with immense cultural cache down to the lonesome freak screaming into a fan in a suburban basement, I think the 'underground' at this moment is still remarkably cohesive and supportive.
I absolutely agree that in spirit there are instances where HN and PE seem strangely at odds, and far be it from me to question lived experience. My reaction is to the initial post, and having spent many years in this bunker, I do not see antagonism between PE and HN anywhere but on the web, among random individuals, and thus ultimately ephemeral so long as your identity is not tied to these platforms.
Reasonable to say that 98% this "rift" exists solely on the web. I think most PE is a joke but unless you're some sketchy incel or a fascist I'll have some basic respect for you same in real life same if you're a pop punk fan which I also think is bullshit..... I'm past the point in my life where music "defines" me and will treat people with a basic common courtesy even if they're into some bullshit I think it hella lame.
Like let's get real if you're a Merzbow fan and you meet someone into like, Whitehouse or some shit you're not gonna be super angsty you're going to be happy you met someone in real life that had similar interests. Am I wrong? You don't have to like, meet each other's parents and shit but there's probably enough in common you can follow each other on Instagram....
Quote from: holy ghost on July 19, 2020, 06:40:07 AM
Reasonable to say that 98% this "rift" exists solely on the web. I think most PE is a joke but unless you're some sketchy incel or a fascist I'll have some basic respect for you same in real life same if you're a pop punk fan which I also think is bullshit..... I'm past the point in my life where music "defines" me and will treat people with a basic common courtesy even if they're into some bullshit I think it hella lame.
Like let's get real if you're a Merzbow fan and you meet someone into like, Whitehouse or some shit you're not gonna be super angsty you're going to be happy you met someone in real life that had similar interests. Am I wrong? You don't have to like, meet each other's parents and shit but there's probably enough in common you can follow each other on Instagram....
What is with the pop punk stuff, and this new "slipknot mallcore Noise." I'm thoroughly confused.
I didn't really ever anticipate there would be some disconnect between fans of Power Electronics vs. Harsh Noise. And yes, it is probably overstated, but I am surprised to see this discussion.
Though, I really should not be. It is a matter of aesthetics. Merzbow or The Gerogerigerigegege vs. Bizarre Uproar or Grunt is quite the contrast.
It is quite evident that some people are not into the whole macho aesthetic of Power Electronics, and they don't have to be.
I don't understand why the aggressive macho behavior is maligned so adamantly. If somsome doesn't like it or isn't into it, then they don't have to be.
And that what it comes down: an appreciation for aesthetics vs. more animalistic matter.
Arguing about the preference between the two is really just silly.
It's not that big of a fucking deal.
Quote from: holy ghost on July 19, 2020, 06:40:07 AM
I'm past the point in my life where music "defines" me...
In all likeliness, this is probably the thing. It's everywhere. You're defined by your team. I personally feel it all stems from sports culture bleeding into everything else. I have to remind myself that professional team sports in only 150+ years old. We have no good clue how it fucks with our mentality and values. I don't care if you never threw a ball and can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Sports are that pervasive and powerful. It affects everyone. Politics. Clothing brands. Coke/Pepsi. It's who we are. It's a perversion of loyalty, which can give rise to cults of personality and unpredictable ramifications. I think of Chicago Cubs fans. The longer they were losers, the stronger their fans held onto them, and then when they finally won the world series, that identity was fully actualized. That team thing gets real deep, and our culture is based on it now. You're rewarded on many levels and beginning at a young age.
Quote from: holy ghost on July 19, 2020, 06:40:07 AM
Reasonable to say that 98% this "rift" exists solely on the web.
In situation where just about everything exists on web... naturally its easiest to see there.
Depends what the "rift" is considered to be.
Opening message concluded:
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 16, 2020, 02:34:59 AM
I've noticed in particular in more recent years. At least in America it seems that the rift between PE and Harsh Noise fans/artists is growing steadily. It usually feels like the HN folks are usually the first ones to denounce or make negative comments about PE. Just my observations over the years how rarely I hear PE artists talk poorly about HN as a genre and actually half if not more tend to be HN fans as well.
If a rift is concluded to mean "one side" denounce or make negative comments, a lot of messages in recent topics are clear display of that. To say it would merely exist
in this forum is of course inaccurate, since most of the posters of that type are active in many places and certainly express this attitude elsewhere. That they also express it here, is barely spirit of forum, but those posters.
What I formerly commented:
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 16, 2020, 10:41:25 PM
Quote from: Eigen Bast on July 16, 2020, 07:32:12 PM
Where does this rift manifest aside from this forum?
Labels, distros, podcasts, zines, gigs, festivals...?
Rift - would not be in this case "a serious break in friendly relations" -type of thing, but just a split / division of something what was formerly more united due consequences.
I don't think it is odd nor even necessarily bad thing. Cross over happens in magnitude it can. Most specialize based on their interests and curate label/distro/podcast/zine/gig/fest based on own tastes. Yet as soon as utterly specialized things dominate, very often they define themselves in contrast to
the other. What this same logic results in social & political level, is pretty much indication what it causes in musical genres as well.
(EDIT: See also Zeno Marx post above for more similar phenomena. It was posted while typing this)As a example, there was dialogue in Harsh Truths podcast, where Roman was wondering why industrial guy would even want to come to DIY noise shows - basically "punk shows". That anti-government, anti-state DIY environment would be exact opposite of these right wing leaning industrial guys sporting in jackboots, who should rather find their own place where can support government as much as possible. I did not spot any irony in the rant (beyond descriptions), but more the amusing result what this division/split on genres and notion of the demonic
the other is causing.
I've told the story before in few places, but I think it fits well here too. About decade ago, I was asked to play first show with Nihilist Commando. I told I will do it only if there are good bands to play with, that I want to see. (Also currently I am not playing live almost at all, but if I do, it would be exactly that. To see other good bands.) So organizer asked what could be booked to make it happen. I gave suggestions. It was mixed bill. Unborn SF playing mildly nationalist streetpunk. Not rac. Bizarre Uproar doing noise. JHV playing scum punk. Noise/core havoc from Ritual Feces and Nuclear Avalance. Plus Nihilist Commando doing noisecore. As you got basically all type of UG, the audience was utterly diverse. You got metalheads, punks, noise guys, skinheads, boneheads, arty folks, etc. Venue was central helsinki bar. You got harsh noise blasting from PA and boneheads are in pit wearing colors, so to say. So not just your regular baldies. But you also got comic artists, punks, etc. scattered all over venue. You can feel the tension, but also emerging energy. The bizarre vibes of mixed line-up, mixed crowd. There is clearly a rift between many individuals, but as a whole, energy is unlike many other events.
Of course in the end, some windows are broken, bouncer gets hit by some sort of bat, PA burns, skins get banned for making any orders from bar, etc. Organizer comes to me after show, asking clearly annoyed that "so you got your line-up, are you happy now?!" and I concluded:
YES.
Out of tons of good shows, nice meetings etc. there are other things, like memorable events. To play it safe, to not stir and mix a bit, may just result good, but somehow luke warm experiences. This also means what linear PE event may be.
What is unfortunate, is fact, that show like that simply could not happen at this day in scale or location as it did. Of course mixed shows still happen all the time in Finland, to level probably unseen in most other countries. It makes me wonder if DIY ethos and sanitization of scene is in different state here than somewhere else. I may be too biased to observe properly.
Quote from: SILVUM on July 19, 2020, 01:44:51 AM
Hm, interesting, ok maybe there's a heavy social justice influx into the "noise" world (I wonder if the Martial music is setting people off - it being usually WW1 & 2 glorification music, we can pretend otherwise, but I can see how normal people would be taken aback). Good UK regional info.
Sorry to be pedantic, but Dublin is not in the UK!!
Good man. No problem.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 19, 2020, 09:53:55 AM
I personally feel it all stems from sports culture bleeding into everything else. I have to remind myself that professional team sports in only 150+ years old. We have no good clue how it fucks with our mentality and values.
I'd argue regional competitiveness is more intrinsic than that, and that sport would probably be the more obvious manifestation of such competitiveness in society because it's the more conducive (I think Orwell is attributed as saying sport is an equivalent of warfare). If sport was somehow extracted from society, there'd still be us-versus-them competition in other fields. I believe tribalism is a basic feature of human behaviour - religion would be your bigger and older example.
I don't know, maybe it's because i'm such a shut in that I don't run into issues like this, or it may be due to my location as I rarely if ever run into anyone into either HNW or PE. For me personally I actually enjoy both forms of art. I think that people could apply generalizations to either style but they would be doing so simply to prove a point that stems from their own personal dislike of one or the other. Are there some neo-facist PE musicians? Yes, indeed, but there are also artists like Crawl of Time that most definitely do not fit that bill. Are there snowflake uber-pc HNW acts? Yes indeed, but then we also have stuff that thematically would normally feel more at home with what people would normally associate with PE. At the end of the day everyone should just like what they like and that's it. If you limit yourself to just one form of art you will find yourself missing out on some amazing stuff regardless of which art form you align with. We could even apply these exact same arguments if we were to discuss different forms of Black Metal and we would end up with pretty much the same conversation that we are having now.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on July 20, 2020, 02:16:46 AM
I'd argue regional competitiveness is more intrinsic than that
Agreed, and I would suggest that this runs even deeper, and influences humanity far more than our 'civilized' society is willing to accept.
To suggest that it's anything to do with "sports culture bleeding into everything else" seems short-sighted.
Andrew's comment re. tribalism points to a more likely source of these apparent conflicts/rifts/whatever.
Quote from: Hatefukk on July 21, 2020, 09:26:16 PM
At the end of the day everyone should just like what they like and that's it. If you limit yourself to just one form of art you will find yourself missing out on some amazing stuff regardless of which art form you align with.
I have a question regarding this, if " everyone should just like what they like and that's it" how is it that someone say initially not liking Black Metal can go on to discover its actually amazing. (What is the source of this amazement, - or say the shock of PE originally) And given " everyone should just like what they like and that's it" then there seems no extrinsic criteria. Music, and Art perhaps in that case is not like sport where clearly some sports people are objectively 'better' than others. Run faster, jump higher. That some tribes win conflicts with others. Moreover if anyone here was born 500 years ago they would not be into industrial or PE. Bennett criticizes TG and Punk for it becoming too pop / rock and roll ... McKinley sees HNW as more pure... and yet in other cultures no 'progress' or idea of progress occurs.
IOW it must be more than "everyone should just like what they like and that's it" because some external strange things, are strange, and shocking – at first. Why isn't art, music no different to sport, where one might like a particular team but have to admit another team (on the day) was better. And how we judge 'better' isnt just what we like and that's it.
Quote from: JLIAT on July 22, 2020, 10:16:16 AM
I have a question regarding this, if " everyone should just like what they like and that's it" how is it that someone say initially not liking Black Metal can go on to discover its actually amazing. (What is the source of this amazement, - or say the shock of PE originally)
I think it's reasonable to say people's tastes are fluid so it's always a wise idea to can the sassy forum talk on what you don't like (also, who gives a shit what you don't like? Why would anyone think anyone else would be interested? Serious question!) lest it bite you in the rear should those tastes evolve and change - 10 years ago I was just not having any of the Collins fronted Genesis and only dug up to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, now I'm a huge fan blasting Seconds Out in my car. Except I always skip Robbery, Assault and Battery which is hands down the worst Genesis tune ever written.
Another example, 10 years ago I thought war metal was wicked cool, now I can't endure even a single pick slide or a militant pseudo "totalitarian" cover with barbed wire skull on it.
Comes with age. Comes with curiosity if you're the curious type. Boiling it down to platitudes and frustrated oversimplifications reeks of youth. We've all been there, and some remain there.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 23, 2020, 12:13:09 AM
Comes with age. Comes with curiosity if you're the curious type. Boiling it down to platitudes and frustrated oversimplifications reeks of youth. We've all been there, and some remain there.
I have some friends who think being into the same shit they were into twenty years ago is like a badge of honour. I can't wrap my head around that mindset but I'm sure they have a hard time talking to me about music since I'm onto another crazy thing I'm obsessed with every 12 minutes.
I think you misunderstood my statement. I meant everyone should like what they like and that's it as in they should like whatever it is that pleases them and not be concerned about supposed rifts among the fans etc. Not that you shouldn't listen to new things and only stick to what you already like. I do understand how you could have came to that conclusion but I felt the need to clarify.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 23, 2020, 12:13:09 AM
Comes with age. Comes with curiosity if you're the curious type. Boiling it down to platitudes and frustrated oversimplifications reeks of youth. We've all been there, and some remain there.
Exactly this. When I was younger I was indeed one of those individuals who wouldn't listen to certain things because it wasn't extreme enough. As I age I find myself less and less concerned with sticking to a specific style and often times enjoy just randomly listening to things from genres I wouldn't normally find myself gravitating towards.
To me HN and PE are closely related, but way more different than people make them out to be. Neither is innately superior in any way, and judging them against each other is just starting shit to be agitating.
I have a project for HN and one for PE, and I love both but kinda go through phases where I'm more dedicated to one or the other.
Quote from: holy ghost on July 23, 2020, 01:41:34 AM
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 23, 2020, 12:13:09 AM
Comes with age. Comes with curiosity if you're the curious type. Boiling it down to platitudes and frustrated oversimplifications reeks of youth. We've all been there, and some remain there.
I have some friends who think being into the same shit they were into twenty years ago is like a badge of honour. I can't wrap my head around that mindset but I'm sure they have a hard time talking to me about music since I'm onto another crazy thing I'm obsessed with every 12 minutes.
Do you think it relates to the team thing? THIS IS
MY TEAM. I'LL NEVER LEAVE IT. People find pride in the strangest of places and things. To feel two things at once, especially if conflicting, is this baaaaddddd thing. Not allowed. Or maybe it comes from safety and security in the familiar. That's a common subconscious goal for habitual types.
In a sentence, for an artform like music to develop rifts are inevitable.
There is 'style' and 'taste', but also 'genre' / 'movements' in 'Art'. One's tastes can be general, like pop, death metal and The Beatles. Liking them all. However if one is involved in an artistic 'movement' this is not the case, there is more to it. I could say IMO, but I've been watching a few videos, two of Bennett interviews, and he makes this clear distinction. He sees Power Electronics, his term, as superior to Rock and Roll, a category in which he places Industrial, and superior to Noise, noise he says is a "Coffee table genre you don't really play". You pose with it... There is the rift, in art there are rifts. He sees latter PE as "re inventing music from the beginning", that "even if you don't like it its good", he speaks of 'a sense of adventure'. He sort in PE not to please an audience, he talked of dragging them screaming into the woods, of confrontation and provocation. "A particular void to fill" and that Punk might once have had something but became like rock mere "plagiarism".
Now I certainly don't agree with much of this, but it shows the difference between an avant garde art, something which Bennett certainly was attempting, and entertainment. Not that the latter is less IMO any less, though maybe for others, Bennett? Freddie Mercury wasn't IMO an avant garde artist but a consummate performer, even if one doesn't like the music. (I don't like soccer but can see Pele was a great player)
So my argument is in art there are rifts, Rothko hated Warhol (& Pop Art) and would cross the street to avoid him... to the extent of suicide at the condition of art... etc. Entertainment is different, and yes the two can merge. But for noise to develop it had to reject PE, IMO, for PE to develop it had to reject Industrial, Punk and Rock – in Bennett's opinion. Now my opinion is just that, Bennett's (and others) was more - were responsible for a new movement in music, Power Electronics. Like it or Lump it as they say.
The idea of plagiarism he also cites as reasons why latter day PE bands don't get it.
Well if you've got this far, a personal note; I lump it. That is I see the significance of PE in the development of what is called Avant Garde / Experimental music, but don't like it. Similar with surrealism.
In a sentence, if there are no longer rifts, there is no longer development.
I agree with most of what theotherjohn says, above, except to suggest that anyone posting on this forum automatically qualifies as a critic. Welcome to the team.
Riffing on JLIAT's closing remarks-
Quote"Eat shit noise music. Kill the all noise artists! We hate Whitehouse. Piss Off NWW. Asshole C93. Suck PTV. Fuck Coil. We love disco sound."
- Ai Yamatsuka / Hanatarashi
"I hate Bordoms!
Fuck! John Zone!
Death! All avantgarde Artists!
I am king of Noise!!
- Jojo Hiroshige / Hijokaidan
"I will be under control of The Mikawa! Anybody helps me now!!"
- T. Mikawa, per T. Sakaguchi
(okay that last one has nothing to do with anything. couldn't resist)
Hey, I'm the last one in the world to impugn your efforts to widen the rift between music and noise.
While I'm here-
QuoteKEEP INDUSTRIAL OUT OF HARSH NOISE
- Prof McKinlay
Quote from: theotherjohn on July 23, 2020, 12:54:33 PM
Perhaps, but I'd like to think that noise is a world apart from music by virtue of its random, ill-planned/unwanted nature (instead of nurture), and thus being a critic is preposturous. We're not critics, we're critters.
I can never remember the name of this zine.
Minotaur (or
Minotaurus) #2. Goddamn it! Does anyone know that zine? There was a short article about what they called "accidenz". I liked that, and it stuck out.
Was it zine with Blood Axis piece before project had published anything?
Also... merzbow I think?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 23, 2020, 08:54:18 PM
Was it zine with Blood Axis piece before project had published anything?
Also... merzbow I think?
Yes, I think so. Merzbow, Masonna, Left Hand Right Hand, Blood Axis. Grey textured cardstock cover with burgundy and black ink. I think all that is accurate. I've looked on Books Discogs and googled with no results.
Yes, I have that one.
Quote from: WCN on July 16, 2020, 12:50:21 PMInteresting topic- I have no access to a computer for a while but feel compelled to put my 2 cents in, even if it means typing on my phone, so probably will be scattered and incomplete.
In short: I see noise in its pure sense as an empty emotional vessel. That the power and chaos of this type of sound allows to unlock deeper meaning or illumination through the introspective experience of the listener. The sound in itself is actually "superficial" in that it's free of content or meaning. There may be some inherent erotic qualities to it I think, but that may also be subjective experience.
"Power Electronics" is actually quite far off from noise in it's function for me I've come to realize (over the years). PE is loaded with specific information, especially when there is a human voice delivering lyrics. The presence of this is alone changes the experience dramatically from listening to pure noise. The "sounds" thrmselves are also often very closely related to traditional western music (Especially when we talk about "industrial") More 4/4 rhythmic patters, calculated 4 minute song structures, melodic elements, and the predictable vocal cadence. Sure, it may be noisy and chaotic, but it's basically deconstructed music. This is of course not a devaluation of PE, it just is a different type of music with a different type of effect.
As for criticism of the "content" of PE, that's a whole different beast. I'm sure I'm not going to cover all my ground here, but my attraction to PE and the "darker side" of noise as Mikko has put it, is that in its best cases, it gives honest language to evil and power - something which is rarely done in art. The thing is, I find that it often stops there, and the argument that it's "dealing with" certain topics to be an overstatement for most PE artists. Rather in most cases it is simply exploiting them. This is certainly OK and can be fascinating and, depending on what kind of person you are and what your values are, continuously so. But for others, the amount of time needed to wallow in this specific pool is limited.
Coming into noise as I did being into PE and HN at the same time. I never equated this "difference" straight away between them, like I do now. I don't know how those coming into noise today feel, but at about 2015-2018 where I may have started my interest and now where you've got a somewhat straight line between the two genres that's also kind of a bit of a void or a nexus to the point where one who is getting into the genre could be influenced by both PE and HN, or both as those mix in strangely at that specific moment in time. I think back to Mania, Scatmother, ect. They almost were both like a good mix of both PE and HN at once, it influenced me a bit with my own project to be a bit of both in similar approach, before realizing any stark differences between the two genres or sounds at that time. I wonder if anyone else shares a similar sentiment in regards to the topic.
First, thanks for bumping old threads - unironically. When social media largely replaced bb forum as a format, discussions online became too short and too focused on what happened in the morning - discussing timeless topic for weeks and months and years is now much less common online.
My 2p as a beginner musician - before I started making music, I had periods of being in love with each of dark ambient, PE and HN, and today it results in many second thoughts when creating music. On one hand, each of the above has different sonic characteristics, different audiences, and different aesthetics, but at the same time, there is certainly a massive overlap (noiser dark ambient is almost death industrial, and noiser death industrial is pretty much PE, and more atonal PE is very much HN). But because audiences are different, am I better off to focus on one (PE) and discard any demos that are too atomospheric or to harsh noisey? Or keep them all together? Not that it really matters since it is more of a hobby, but there is satisfaction to be found in consistency. But that means locking yourself in one genre when you enjoy creating stuff across the spectrum.
I'm into noise, industrial and pe and put together whatever works for me totally uncaring about who will listen it.
I must admit I met several HN young guys (mostly woke hipsters) that despise Industrial because "too rock" (even when there is no rock) and pe because of "laughable vocals" - true story, but truth is most of these people hates both because of the unsafe topics and aesthetic. Fun thing, I found edgy topics in all HN projects I have started following the subgenre many years ago, and still today The Rita, etc, deliver very morbid aesthetic and I'm happy to work with him and anybody else even if I am still rooted in industrial and I do 90% PE.
Said this, that slogan/shirts were amazing! I'm all about gate fencing and earning your credibility by actions ah ah