Special Interest

Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

What are you talking about?

i think that people are way too quick to release anything/everything. lazy upload to bandcamp & wait for glory to roll in. i prefer people who know what they are talking about putting great effort into helping others gain insight via zines & reviews. wouldnt call them gate keepers more taste makers maybe?

Quote from: Thermophile on October 26, 2020, 11:54:39 PM
Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

Above is Thermophile's quote, my reply below. Excuse tha luddite

It really depends on which people/reviewers you send it to.
I imagine you subscribe/buy the zines/online outlets, and are willing to admit that your labels output may not be what they like (would love to find a review outlet that accepts all and will run you down with no mercy, because that's what you wanted them to do (best review in my mind for a live release, ("I can't believe the audience were so stoned they didn't kill these fuckers when they were in the open") which I read in a zine) & understood that the copy you sent you could have sold).

Yes does matter. I still buy zines, I still read people's reviews of material online and purchase based on that.

Its a chance you take as the fella that stumped cash to make that release.

I hope this helps.

Quote from: Harvest on October 27, 2020, 01:14:56 AM
i think that people are way too quick to release anything/everything. lazy upload to bandcamp & wait for glory to roll in. i prefer people who know what they are talking about putting great effort into helping others gain insight via zines & reviews. wouldnt call them gate keepers more taste makers maybe?
[/quote

Yes, this also.

Quote from: Thermophile on October 26, 2020, 11:54:39 PM
Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

I think this is a really interesting but extremely complex question. (I preface ALL what follows with IMO).

For want of a better description we live in a culture which is, or attempts to be 'dynamic'. And with this culture there appears  two opposing drives. The need to be an individual, to matter, and the tendency to be (want to be?) identified as part of a group. This is typical it seems of an industrial / capitalist system. There are other cultures where this doesn't happen, where there exists a steady state and maybe we will enter into such at some time. This would represent the 'bygone era' idea. Though I think maybe not yet. The various shades of Metal. PE and Noise, HN HNW represent 'nodes'  (as do identity to even more specific 'artists') to which individuals – as above – can identify. Central to the post-modern schizophrenia is the identity/individual paradox. Here – in SI ""difficult" music" creates, or is used as these 'nodes'. Others include such things as the Hipster phenomena,  XR, and notably LBGT, which shows this process is not static, as it's now morphed into LGBTQ+ .

So the scare quotes around  'artists', if we say take "Dominick Fernow is an American experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist"  as an example. Recognised here as such by some maybe, but generally I have doubts. Any more than Masami Akita is or Sam McKinlay. They are significant figures in a fairly small genre.  From a 'High Art' perspective they are (it could be contentiously argued) no more significant than someone like Taylor Swift (or whoever now is located within that genre). The terms ' experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist'  were borrowed to elevate a musician to a higher status.

For want of -TLDR the Bill Drummond case  and the stuckists are evidence enough. Drummond made millions with the pop group KLF but wanted High Art Status, which he sort in the K foundation, challenging the High Art scene, which culminated in his burning a million pounds. He is still attempting though to break into the High Art world. "Stuckism is an international art movement founded in 1999 by Billy Childish and Charles Thomson to promote figurative painting as opposed to conceptual art. "
Well Childish was/is the dumped partner of Tracey Emin who made it big with the YBAs back in the 90s. He also formed a band using antique guitars and amps and even tried his hand at gardening.  

So what of the original question, gatekeepers are needed, they still exist in High Art, they function to create these 'genres' by exclusion, inclusion, but also  represent something to react against. i.e. Bennett thinks noise just a coffee table fashion.

Conclusion.

So while there is a thing called 'Art' in which concerns are internal to that, there is the other 'popular art' forms giving individual identities. And Gate keeping provides both negative and positive constraints on these activities.  

'Popular' in that the music is 'liked' but also used as a means of identity. As for 'difficult', well again High Art has been there n.b. Warhol's Empire, Duchamp & Cage... etc.

P.S.

"there are no more gates to keep in the internet era."  

Well maybe, but the internet is really only yet another means of mass communication, like printing, books, newspapers, the railways, motor cars,  air travel, photography / film, sound recording, radio and TV. More a proliferation of ever changing gates, which might result in a (ever faster) circular rather than 'progressive' movement.

And all these made huge impacts on society, obviously including music. And i'd say printing was probably the biggest to date, ended over a millennia of fairly static culture?

I think zines, well regarded reviewers, and labels are more important than ever, now that the world is so saturated with available music. There's a lot out there and especially labels in my view serve an important function as curators, more than anything. Speaking for myself, I don't have time to check out everything, so it's very nice to be able to follow a few select labels that I know have an ear for quality. Gatekeepers? Maybe, but not all music is equal.

Quote from: JLIAT on October 27, 2020, 11:02:52 AM

Quote from: Thermophile on October 26, 2020, 11:54:39 PM
Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

I think this is a really interesting but extremely complex question. (I preface ALL what follows with IMO).

For want of a better description we live in a culture which is, or attempts to be 'dynamic'. And with this culture there appears  two opposing drives. The need to be an individual, to matter, and the tendency to be (want to be?) identified as part of a group. This is typical it seems of an industrial / capitalist system. There are other cultures where this doesn't happen, where there exists a steady state and maybe we will enter into such at some time. This would represent the 'bygone era' idea. Though I think maybe not yet. The various shades of Metal. PE and Noise, HN HNW represent 'nodes'  (as do identity to even more specific 'artists') to which individuals – as above – can identify. Central to the post-modern schizophrenia is the identity/individual paradox. Here – in SI ""difficult" music" creates, or is used as these 'nodes'. Others include such things as the Hipster phenomena,  XR, and notably LBGT, which shows this process is not static, as it's now morphed into LGBTQ+ .

So the scare quotes around  'artists', if we say take "Dominick Fernow is an American experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist"  as an example. Recognised here as such by some maybe, but generally I have doubts. Any more than Masami Akita is or Sam McKinlay. They are significant figures in a fairly small genre.  From a 'High Art' perspective they are (it could be contentiously argued) no more significant than someone like Taylor Swift (or whoever now is located within that genre). The terms ' experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist'  were borrowed to elevate a musician to a higher status.

For want of -TLDR the Bill Drummond case  and the stuckists are evidence enough. Drummond made millions with the pop group KLF but wanted High Art Status, which he sort in the K foundation, challenging the High Art scene, which culminated in his burning a million pounds. He is still attempting though to break into the High Art world. "Stuckism is an international art movement founded in 1999 by Billy Childish and Charles Thomson to promote figurative painting as opposed to conceptual art. "
Well Childish was/is the dumped partner of Tracey Emin who made it big with the YBAs back in the 90s. He also formed a band using antique guitars and amps and even tried his hand at gardening.  

So what of the original question, gatekeepers are needed, they still exist in High Art, they function to create these 'genres' by exclusion, inclusion, but also  represent something to react against. i.e. Bennett thinks noise just a coffee table fashion.

Conclusion.

So while there is a thing called 'Art' in which concerns are internal to that, there is the other 'popular art' forms giving individual identities. And Gate keeping provides both negative and positive constraints on these activities.  

'Popular' in that the music is 'liked' but also used as a means of identity. As for 'difficult', well again High Art has been there n.b. Warhol's Empire, Duchamp & Cage... etc.

P.S.

"there are no more gates to keep in the internet era."  

Well maybe, but the internet is really only yet another means of mass communication, like printing, books, newspapers, the railways, motor cars,  air travel, photography / film, sound recording, radio and TV. More a proliferation of ever changing gates, which might result in a (ever faster) circular rather than 'progressive' movement.

And all these made huge impacts on society, obviously including music. And i'd say printing was probably the biggest to date, ended over a millennia of fairly static culture?

[/quote

Quote from: JLIAT on October 27, 2020, 11:02:52 AM

Quote from: Thermophile on October 26, 2020, 11:54:39 PM
Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

I think this is a really interesting but extremely complex question. (I preface ALL what follows with IMO).

For want of a better description we live in a culture which is, or attempts to be 'dynamic'. And with this culture there appears  two opposing drives. The need to be an individual, to matter, and the tendency to be (want to be?) identified as part of a group. This is typical it seems of an industrial / capitalist system. There are other cultures where this doesn't happen, where there exists a steady state and maybe we will enter into such at some time. This would represent the 'bygone era' idea. Though I think maybe not yet. The various shades of Metal. PE and Noise, HN HNW represent 'nodes'  (as do identity to even more specific 'artists') to which individuals – as above – can identify. Central to the post-modern schizophrenia is the identity/individual paradox. Here – in SI ""difficult" music" creates, or is used as these 'nodes'. Others include such things as the Hipster phenomena,  XR, and notably LBGT, which shows this process is not static, as it's now morphed into LGBTQ+ .

So the scare quotes around  'artists', if we say take "Dominick Fernow is an American experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist"  as an example. Recognised here as such by some maybe, but generally I have doubts. Any more than Masami Akita is or Sam McKinlay. They are significant figures in a fairly small genre.  From a 'High Art' perspective they are (it could be contentiously argued) no more significant than someone like Taylor Swift (or whoever now is located within that genre). The terms ' experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist'  were borrowed to elevate a musician to a higher status.

For want of -TLDR the Bill Drummond case  and the stuckists are evidence enough. Drummond made millions with the pop group KLF but wanted High Art Status, which he sort in the K foundation, challenging the High Art scene, which culminated in his burning a million pounds. He is still attempting though to break into the High Art world. "Stuckism is an international art movement founded in 1999 by Billy Childish and Charles Thomson to promote figurative painting as opposed to conceptual art. "
Well Childish was/is the dumped partner of Tracey Emin who made it big with the YBAs back in the 90s. He also formed a band using antique guitars and amps and even tried his hand at gardening. 

So what of the original question, gatekeepers are needed, they still exist in High Art, they function to create these 'genres' by exclusion, inclusion, but also  represent something to react against. i.e. Bennett thinks noise just a coffee table fashion.

Conclusion.

So while there is a thing called 'Art' in which concerns are internal to that, there is the other 'popular art' forms giving individual identities. And Gate keeping provides both negative and positive constraints on these activities. 

'Popular' in that the music is 'liked' but also used as a means of identity. As for 'difficult', well again High Art has been there n.b. Warhol's Empire, Duchamp & Cage... etc.

P.S.

"there are no more gates to keep in the internet era." 

Well maybe, but the internet is really only yet another means of mass communication, like printing, books, newspapers, the railways, motor cars,  air travel, photography / film, sound recording, radio and TV. More a proliferation of ever changing gates, which might result in a (ever faster) circular rather than 'progressive' movement.

And all these made huge impacts on society, obviously including music. And i'd say printing was probably the biggest to date, ended over a millennia of fairly static culture?

Yes we do live within an "age". I shit you not to deny this.

But having read  and understood the qu

Quote from: JLIAT on October 27, 2020, 11:02:52 AM

Quote from: Thermophile on October 26, 2020, 11:54:39 PM
Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

I think this is a really interesting but extremely complex question. (I preface ALL what follows with IMO).

For want of a better description we live in a culture which is, or attempts to be 'dynamic'. And with this culture there appears  two opposing drives. The need to be an individual, to matter, and the tendency to be (want to be?) identified as part of a group. This is typical it seems of an industrial / capitalist system. There are other cultures where this doesn't happen, where there exists a steady state and maybe we will enter into such at some time. This would represent the 'bygone era' idea. Though I think maybe not yet. The various shades of Metal. PE and Noise, HN HNW represent 'nodes'  (as do identity to even more specific 'artists') to which individuals – as above – can identify. Central to the post-modern schizophrenia is the identity/individual paradox. Here – in SI ""difficult" music" creates, or is used as these 'nodes'. Others include such things as the Hipster phenomena,  XR, and notably LBGT, which shows this process is not static, as it's now morphed into LGBTQ+ .

So the scare quotes around  'artists', if we say take "Dominick Fernow is an American experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist"  as an example. Recognised here as such by some maybe, but generally I have doubts. Any more than Masami Akita is or Sam McKinlay. They are significant figures in a fairly small genre.  From a 'High Art' perspective they are (it could be contentiously argued) no more significant than someone like Taylor Swift (or whoever now is located within that genre). The terms ' experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist'  were borrowed to elevate a musician to a higher status.

For want of -TLDR the Bill Drummond case  and the stuckists are evidence enough. Drummond made millions with the pop group KLF but wanted High Art Status, which he sort in the K foundation, challenging the High Art scene, which culminated in his burning a million pounds. He is still attempting though to break into the High Art world. "Stuckism is an international art movement founded in 1999 by Billy Childish and Charles Thomson to promote figurative painting as opposed to conceptual art. "
Well Childish was/is the dumped partner of Tracey Emin who made it big with the YBAs back in the 90s. He also formed a band using antique guitars and amps and even tried his hand at gardening. 

So what of the original question, gatekeepers are needed, they still exist in High Art, they function to create these 'genres' by exclusion, inclusion, but also  represent something to react against. i.e. Bennett thinks noise just a coffee table fashion.

Conclusion.

So while there is a thing called 'Art' in which concerns are internal to that, there is the other 'popular art' forms giving individual identities. And Gate keeping provides both negative and positive constraints on these activities. 

'Popular' in that the music is 'liked' but also used as a means of identity. As for 'difficult', well again High Art has been there n.b. Warhol's Empire, Duchamp & Cage... etc.

P.S.

"there are no more gates to keep in the internet era." 

Well maybe, but the internet is really only yet another means of mass communication, like printing, books, newspapers, the railways, motor cars,  air travel, photography / film, sound recording, radio and TV. More a proliferation of ever changing gates, which might result in a (ever faster) circular rather than 'progressive' movement.

And all these made huge impacts on society, obviously including music. And i'd say printing was probably the biggest to date, ended over a millennia of fairly static culture?

I do believe that this topic regards the value of sending paid for copies of a release to a person for their opinion.
I read & understood your response, but feel you failed you address the question asked..
I got a lot from you said besides that.
Thanks

Edited

I'm still a luddite.. Sigh..

Quote from: slagfrenzy tapes on October 27, 2020, 02:20:40 PM
Still a luddite.. Sigh..

Who is this addressed to? Plus you seem to have a problem with quotes?  is "I do believe that this topic regards the value of sending paid for copies of a release to a person for their opinion.
I read & understood your response, but feel you failed you address the question asked..
I got a lot from you said besides that.
Thanks"

You.

The question asked was answered, "Yes".

Usually when I hear someone talk about "gatekeepers", it reeks to me of somehow bitter losers. I have never seen label or magazine editor or distributor, gig organizers etc etc as "gatekeepers" - meaning the guy that prevents one from success that otherwise would be there. Instead of being gatekeepers, most of the people tend to be creators and cultivators. They have their own tastes and sometimes other reasons (including even just mere friendships that determine who they talk about). It would be foolish to expect that they'll give positive reviews to everybody or invite everybody to play in festival. To see such things as "gatekeeping", makes me just wonder... Gate to... where?

Genre is basically open to anyone, anywhere, to do almost anything. Most of the people that may be called gatekeepers, probably spent unhealthy amount of time on thing as "reviewing noise". I personally would hope there would be more people to write reviews. I feel that we have zero gatekeepers, but also almost zero places to send album for review?

Quote from: Thermophile on October 26, 2020, 11:54:39 PM
...

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

Okay, but that doesn't mean that they are obligated to review your release, or review it positively.

And yes, the guy who runs the zine does still guard a gate — the gate to his own little domain, the zine. And if you say that the particular gate is meaningless and nobody cares, well then why did you send him anything in the first place?

Earlier before the internet there was a few people who wrote for zines and magazines that i over the years i  learned to trust the taste of, some of them i knew i would like it if they hated it. And some had quite similar taste as me, but anyway, after some years it was so good having these to find out what few albums could be ordered not to a complete waste.

Today it is a complete opposite maybe, but it still feels a bit like the same to me. There is so much music out there and no time to listen to it all on the net before ordering. Checking reviews/getting recommendations from some select people who really dig deep if different genres is great. Without these "gatekeepers" i doubt we would have zines, forums, underground labels and concerts.

I love fanzines with a good review section. Often the first thing i read.

To clarify by gatekeepers of a bygone era I meant those who controlled means of distribution. Record labels, magazines, tv, radio, venue managers.
There was no other way for you to expose your artefact to the world. Everything had to be previously filtered by people in the above categories.
Of course this is not entirely negative if people with great taste happen to do the filtering process but that is not always the case. I remember William Bennett saying distributors in the 80's throwing copies of Whitehouse records to his face.

As JLIAT said above the issue is complex and don't want to make this a long drawn philosophical argument if gatekeepers should exist or not.

Also to respond to FreakAnimalFinland, . You would be equally (if not more) delusional to have such expectations from (self-perceived)gatekeepers by believing they hold the key to your "success".
Although barriers set by old gatekeepers are removed in the internet era, paradoxically the presumed audience (always an uncertain variable) for such type of music is even further away from reach due to dilution of information in the vast ocean of global internet chaos, the overload of releases and the post-modern melting away of particularities. So maybe you are right that for this type of music is better to have dedicated places for reviews and where the interested people are collected.

Quote from: Thermophile on October 31, 2020, 12:24:58 PM


As JLIAT said above the issue is complex and don't want to make this a long drawn philosophical argument if gatekeepers should exist or not.

Quote from: Thermophile on October 31, 2020, 12:24:58 PM
Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

They do exist in the form of online reviews etc.  But I also think they act in a positive way in that they present an orthodoxy which in turn creates a re-action. As a famous 'philosophical'  event, "Forget Foucault by Jean Baudrillard" was a piece sent by Baudrillard to a magazine edited by Foucault - who ignored it and didn't publish.. that made Baudrillard instantly famous!

There was also the famous spat between GPO and Bennett... 

Maybe without 'gatekeepers' - before cassettes - economic - (the cost of releasing a Vinyl) as you point out rather than creativity being stifled it's swamped in the shear volume of material, AKA Noise. 

You paid to make this release, yes?
You sent it to a person /zine? Yes?

Sometimes the answer is no.

I shit you not.

I love concrete, but with a donna..

Quote from: slagfrenzy tapes on October 31, 2020, 01:32:10 PM
You paid to make this release, yes?
You sent it to a person /zine? Yes?

Sometimes the answer is no.

I shit you not.

I love concrete, but with a donna..

That's what we are discussing in this thread.

It barely matters if you send or where you send or what was the answer.

People who still hold such delusions (either those who act as gatekeepers or those who think someone holds the key that will make them famous or sell records)
are clueless to what have happened to the world the last 20 years or so and how old ways of conduct have changed or barely matter anymore.

Quote from: Thermophile on October 31, 2020, 02:04:48 PM

That's what we are discussing in this thread.

It barely matters if you send or where you send or what was the answer.

People who still hold such delusions (either those who act as gatekeepers or those who think someone holds the key that will make them famous or sell records)
are clueless to what have happened to the world the last 20 years or so and how old ways of conduct have changed or barely matter anymore.

Depends. I've sent numerous free review copies out and had good/bad reviews. Also ads in The Wire and elsewhere. This did not result in any significant sales, but I didnt expect any. Promotion is costly, there are notable examples in very popular releases. I heard a story last night about Thelonious Monk who was signed to Columbia, left after a few releases owing them! $16,000.00. The Industry is full of crooks, Rough Trade owe me £2,000.00 – Dutch East India more. There certainly are gatekeepers, and networks of promotion.

QuoteEventually a new paradigm is formed, which gains its own new followers. For Kuhn, this stage entails both resistance to the new paradigm, and reasons for why individual scientists adopt it. According to Max Planck, "a new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."

This is obviously more true in the arts where there is even less of any objective criteria.

On the one hand its naïve to expect anyone taking an interest but equally to simply give up.

Quote from: Thermophile on October 31, 2020, 02:04:48 PM

Quote from: slagfrenzy tapes on October 31, 2020, 01:32:10 PM
You paid to make this release, yes?
You sent it to a person /zine? Yes?

Sometimes the answer is no.

I shit you not.

I love concrete, but with a donna..

That's what we are discussing in this thread.

It barely matters if you send or where you send or what was the answer.

People who still hold such delusions (either those who act as gatekeepers or those who think someone holds the key that will make them famous or sell records)
are clueless to what have happened to the world the last 20 years or so and how old ways of conduct have changed or barely matter anymore.

Your answer doesn't make sense, I went back and reread every post in this topic, and are really confused about what you are asking.

Do you want to tell gatekeepers they don't have their own opinions?

That the gatekeepers are not allowed to express these opinions in public?

Im getting the feeling someone has received your promotional copy of yr release and just kept it, didn't promote it, just kept it. Who was it that damaged you life, name and shame might work better....

Quote from: slagfrenzy tapes on November 01, 2020, 03:16:47 AM

Quote from: Thermophile on October 31, 2020, 02:04:48 PM

Quote from: slagfrenzy tapes on October 31, 2020, 01:32:10 PM
You paid to make this release, yes?
You sent it to a person /zine? Yes?

Sometimes the answer is no.

I shit you not.

I love concrete, but with a donna..

That's what we are discussing in this thread.

It barely matters if you send or where you send or what was the answer.

People who still hold such delusions (either those who act as gatekeepers or those who think someone holds the key that will make them famous or sell records)
are clueless to what have happened to the world the last 20 years or so and how old ways of conduct have changed or barely matter anymore.

Your answer doesn't make sense, I went back and reread every post in this topic, and are really confused about what you are asking.

Do you want to tell gatekeepers they don't have their own opinions?

That the gatekeepers are not allowed to express these opinions in public?

Im getting the feeling someone has received your promotional copy of yr release and just kept it, didn't promote it, just kept it. Who was it that damaged you life, name and shame might work better....

I haven't sent a single promo copy anywhere yet.

I think you are just salty because I called people with your mindset delusional.

Quote from: Thermophile on October 31, 2020, 02:04:48 PM

People who still hold such delusions (either those who act as gatekeepers or those who think someone holds the key that will make them famous or sell records)
are clueless to what have happened to the world the last 20 years or so and how old ways of conduct have changed or barely matter anymore.

I think the basic principles of underground culture are as valid as they always were. Like I mentioned before, I do not think there are "gatekeepers" per se. Calling people who write, publish, distributors, are most of all enables. Most of noise guys do it on financial loss. They see something they like, and want to tell people about it or push it to other peoples hands. That is how underground traditionally functions. They are not "key to success". It is just part of the process how word gets around.

In short: Someone did so great stuff, that others can't shut up about it. And more people get interested.

People learn quickly who does good recommendations. Who tells everything is awesome. Who is biased to certain group of people or aesthetic. As it was expressed before, I recall by you, was the insane flood of material that leads most people into problem of abundance. While in past, you may have trusted great review to be why you placed order of item.

Now you may have option to pre-view (or just listen) release from artists own bandcamp for example. But what did take you there? I can not believe people would just randomly click links like mindless consumers, hoarding everything and anything. Still now, pretty much everybody I know, check out thing based on becoming interested in it. How you become interested in something, first of all you'd need to find or hear about it. Often can be just random discoveries, but a lot of it is, someone saying, somewhere, "did you hear this? fucking brilliant!".  On level of noise underground, every "journalist", every "distro", every "gig organizer" is basically just that guy who is enthusiastic about it, to communicate and "promote" it to others. You only hear word "gatekeeper" when shitty band needs excuse why nobody listens or buys their stuff, and thinks there exists some magical character who can change that by writing few lines in Wire magazine or such...

I personally feel, enthusiastic people/"enablers" are crucial, and purpose of even forum such is SI - is to advocate such behavior. People picking up best things they heard and were impressed and recommend others to check out. Or put out release of such artist. Or grab some copies of their stuff to distro. Without such behavior, you simply do not discover it by yourself from such a vast mass of things, that happens globally.

One can check out Playlist topic for example. Tell what you hear, and why it ruled. That release may get few buyers or people checking out if there is link to listen it. It may get labels to send invitations to make next tape on their label, etc.

I wouldn't even know where to send copies of releases for reviews, to be honest. I like Musique Machine and I guess Heathen Harvest was important (down now?), but apart from that I am only aware of the print zines and the handful of fans who write reviews here or on Facebook. Apart from that, the only "gatekeepers" I could imagine are either established artists or labels who will turn down an artist's applications for a release or split, but that's just a lost chance at best

Quote from: vomitgore on November 07, 2020, 11:10:09 AM
I wouldn't even know where to send copies of releases for reviews, to be honest. I like Musique Machine and I guess Heathen Harvest was important (down now?), but apart from that I am only aware of the print zines and the handful of fans who write reviews here or on Facebook. Apart from that, the only "gatekeepers" I could imagine are either established artists or labels who will turn down an artist's applications for a release or split, but that's just a lost chance at best

Vital Weekly will review physical releases.

Quote from: JLIAT on November 07, 2020, 11:16:54 AM

Quote from: vomitgore on November 07, 2020, 11:10:09 AM
I wouldn't even know where to send copies of releases for reviews, to be honest. I like Musique Machine and I guess Heathen Harvest was important (down now?), but apart from that I am only aware of the print zines and the handful of fans who write reviews here or on Facebook. Apart from that, the only "gatekeepers" I could imagine are either established artists or labels who will turn down an artist's applications for a release or split, but that's just a lost chance at best

Vital Weekly will review physical releases.

also Sound Projector magazine which only publishes annually.

Posted this on another noise board but it was swiftly deleted within 5 minutes. I chose noise as my preferred artistic expression & community well over a decade ago to avoid this exact type of neoCONservative bullshit!

It's great to see that people are ᖵinally recognizing Beyonɔé's vast original artistic achievements. 32 Grammy's is a great start!

I think she deserves a retroactive O$car for her leading role in that Austin Powers movie!

I also think she deserves a Nobel Piece Prize for her performances in Saudi Arabia!

#Robbed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLiP4GB-JOA%20/)

I would guess it was posted on wrong section?
If it is posted on misc talk, probably no problem?
I am sure S&W ain't gatekeeping, but just the opposite. Opening the gates for anyone to talk about noise if they want to. Hopefully there would be more active noise talk on S&W!

SI rules are simple. Less drama, more noise.  More noise applies also that there is a lot of places to talk about misc music, very few places to talk about noise and related. There are topics for other types of music, but hoping SI stays mostly noise talk by noise people and hopefully no need to open "misc", "misc music" or such sections.

I wouldn't say people review release's because they want to 'gatekeep', more that they are just offering a opinion.

If you don't care about other's opinions of what you do, dont send them any of your material to review.

And if you are creating something with the sole purpose of hoping everyone likes it - Dont.

Its not a complex issue.

I've seen couple of vague comments in certain finnish internet forum concerning gatekeeping problem within noise scene. These accusations are always very, very vague and generalizing in nature and seem to revolve around "toxic masculinity", alleged fascism and "problematic" nature of some topics and themes that are featured in some releases.

My take on this topic is that there are no real "gatekeepers" in scene, but people may seem to be gatekeepers to those who are trying to be part of the scene but who are trying to enter with negative approach and fixed set of ideals that the rest of the scene should conform to. No real contributions, no networking, no obsessions, no conversations.

I must point out that most of the people that i referred in my earlier post seem to come from hardcore punk scene or all somewhat related to it. Some are very keen to accuse the noise scene of actively gatekeeping and "collaborating" or supporting fascism, but they are not part of the noise scene or interested in noise at all. To me it seems that they are trying to force the ideals, general worldview and working models of hc punk / anarcho scene upon industrial culture and noise without real intention of contributing to the noise scene and culture.

Quote from: Commander15 on February 22, 2023, 12:08:03 PM
I've seen couple of vague comments in certain finnish internet forum concerning gatekeeping problem within noise scene.

Fins complaining about gatekeeping ?! That's hilarious ! I was listening the 2nd Kylmakovamaa tape yesterday -top stuff !- and i was thinking what an endless source is Finland for noise. And i think, a big reason that is an endless source is that 'established' native labels / artists / heads support and promote native people / projects more than anything else and more than anywhere else. Seriously, i believe that especialy a Finn who is complaining he cant make an 'entry' , he 100% just hasnt good enough material, and instead of thanking those who rejected him and advice him to try harder, or at least say a 'Fuck off, dont need you anyway, i ll go by myself, and prove you wrong' , he just cries around in the internet about gatekeeping.

PS: Yvette, S&W are well known Beyonce fanboys !

Edit: Just saw Commander15's clarification post. So, people who have nothing to do with noise suppose there is gatekeeping in noise. Very typical of their such. To dont know, to just suppose / guess, and to want to change the thing that's not 'theirs' and they dont even know, based on their suppositions.

Quote from: Theodore on February 22, 2023, 12:59:33 PM

Quote from: Commander15 on February 22, 2023, 12:08:03 PM
I've seen couple of vague comments in certain finnish internet forum concerning gatekeeping problem within noise scene.

Fins complaining about gatekeeping ?! That's hilarious ! I was listening the 2nd Kylmakovamaa tape yesterday -top stuff !- and i was thinking what an endless source is Finland for noise. And i think, a big reason that is an endless source is that 'established' native labels / artists / heads support and promote native people / projects more than anything else and more than anywhere else. Seriously, i believe that especialy a Finn who is complaining he cant make an 'entry' , he 100% just hasnt good enough material, and instead of thanking those who rejected him and advice him to try harder, or at least say a 'Fuck off, dont need you anyway, i ll go by myself, and prove you wrong' , he just cries around in the internet about gatekeeping.

PS: Yvette, S&W are well known Beyonce fanboys !

Well put and i agree completely!

At the one hand you have labels as gatekeepers and on the other you have reviewers/media. I think both play positive parts.

For labels: Labels in our little underground culture usually have a certain profile and release stuff that fit into that. If you send your stuff to a label expecting them to invest in your release, you should pick one that's a good match for you. There can be many reasons for a label to say no. Your music can be substandard or not developed enough for an actual release, in which case a label should just tell you to work on it more and improve. It could be that their finances are bound to other projects. Some don't like being approached and prefer to seek out artists on their own. Maybe they don't see how your release would fit in with the rest of their catalogue. Or a number of other more or less personal or arbitary reasons can factor in. At the end of the day, it's up to a label to decide what they release. For me personally, I think the profile and taste of particular labels work as stamps of quality. If a certain label has invested in a project, I know it will be good and worth my time and money. That's gatekeeping for sure, but it's ensuring consistent quality. I'm personally fed up with online only "releases" of no quality or consequense. People uploading last night's improvised session of feedback loops to bandcamp is simply spam in my opinion. So basically, gatekeeping via labels ensure that I don't have waste my time on crap like that.

For reviewers/media: There are very few outlets that deal with the noise/industrial underground. Very few real magazines out there + some blogs. I think a lot of people (myself included) review a mix of releases that they have received from contacts/friends within the scene and releases they have bought. Same with gigs. I have in fact never written a review of a gig where I dind't pay for my ticket. The scene is so small that reviews happen largely on a voluntary and non-profit basis. Is it really gatekeeping that reviewers choose to write about releases that have caught their attention for one reason or another? Also, even if you disagree with a certain reviewer's opinion, isn't it preferable that someone cares that this and that has been released or that this gig is happening and feel like sharing their opinion about it afterwards rather than everything being passed in silence?

As for bad reviews, well, that's just the risk you run when you choose to share your music with others as a release or live in front of an audience. In my opinion not everything should be released, and not everyone deserves to be recognized as a recording/performing artist. By all means, make your noise or whatever at home as a hobby, that's fine, but why should others care? It sometimes seems like people feel entitled to be recognized, but no one really is. So stop whining and improve instead, then maybe one day if you're good enough, you'll get that recognition.

So yeah, I say keep the gatekeepers, they still have their place as they highlight what's worth your attention in the constant flood of self-releases and events where most of them are just a waste of time.

I listen to noise almost exclusively curated to me by gatekeepers i trust: a bunch of labels that have a history of releasing stuff i like. Anyone can make noise, put it up on bandcamp and consider themselves of the same level as worth or anyone else i guess, but labels serve a really important role in sifting thru all the shit and putting time and effort to make a release look and sound as good as possible. Gatekeepers, meaning labels are a good thing. As are reviewers, i really enjoy reading well thought out reviews that maybe have insights that deepen my understanding of a release.

In new JEPH JERMAN book there is great stuff in many ways, but there is also curious remark about role of tape in music culture.
Common idea has been, that c-cassette democratized the music creation. Before that, the true gatekeeper - old style record labels - dictated what was released. Studios were expensive and hard to get into. Suddenly tape came, and everybody could do it. By themselves.

Author of the book brings different view, which is absolutely great. He argues that what tape really did, was freeing us of democracy!

In short, he says that no longer we had to please masses.

Indeed, it may be easy to see that old style record labels would do anything what had market. Anything with mass appeal. It was not really labels who dictated what should be released, but the democratic voice. so to say. The mass appeal, the market. Finally with tapes, you didn't need approval. Didn't need "support". You could do what you wanted, regardless of opinions of the others. Especially opinions of larger public.

Still now, we are luckily free of democracy. In noise scene. I suppose I did say what I have to say about gatekeepers earlier in this thread. For me it seems most guys who are blamed gatekeepers are way way way less about preventing anyone doing something and more about waving in front of the gate welcoming signal. If you don't like the type of thing happening behind that gate, I'm sure there is another person waving in folks who prefer to hang out in different crowd.

Quote from: host body on February 22, 2023, 01:37:42 PM
I listen to noise almost exclusively curated to me by gatekeepers i trust

that is key to me too- I don't have the time to sift through bandcamp and whatever myself, much as I'd like...

Tangentially on Mikko's post + a few extra thoughts...There was a Frank Zappa interview where he said that things were better when label bosses were just old farts with cigars who din't have a clue about music. they were simply money guys. According to him, things turned shit when the young and hip took over and curated everything, in consequence making real experimental music much more rare because these new people "knew" what was "good" (=had a market) and what was not. In the reality of today, I have been thinking that the easy acces to recording equipment and so on means that everything is basically ready for release when a label receives it. Labels know exactly what they get and have a chance to reject things they don't believe there's a market for making them (perhaps) take fewer chances. Back in the day, the result from some newly signed band wasn't certain until after the studio time had been paid for. I think that meant that what was recorded was released anyway since the money had already been spent, even if the label felt that the result was a bit of a letdown or not exactly what was hoped for. It also feels like artists in the past grew and learned more on the job, so to speak, whereas now people don't really get released until they've matured enough as artists to deliver something that has a market, however niche that market might be. Labels seem to gamble less, even in the deep underground, probably because the media itself is now the expensive part. Even cassettes are getting unreasonably expensive. All in all, it might be a fair point to make that more democracy in terms of music production does not necessarily lead to more creativity or more daring releases, it might actually be that the opposite is true.

Quote from: Phenol on February 22, 2023, 01:31:59 PM

I'm personally fed up with online only "releases" of no quality or consequense. People uploading last night's improvised session of feedback loops to bandcamp is simply spam in my opinion. So basically, gatekeeping via labels ensure that I don't have waste my time on crap like that.

Principle of least effort :))

I agree, the world of digital releases is total chaos and a mess as there is no practical way for a listener to discern what is what in terms of quality if one has the daunting task of searching through an entire landfill. A question I have is how gatekeepers today keep up with the daunting task of doing the filtering process when confronted with the sheer volume of output due to democratisation of the means of creation. Someone in the comments mentioned that some labels/reviewers don't accept material but prefer to do themselves the selection process. So where do they look at? Does that mean they face the same demoralising prospect of filtering thousands of half baked digital releases as the causal listener on Bandcamp would do.

Quote from: Thermophile on February 24, 2023, 02:17:24 AM

Quote from: Phenol on February 22, 2023, 01:31:59 PM

I'm personally fed up with online only "releases" of no quality or consequense. People uploading last night's improvised session of feedback loops to bandcamp is simply spam in my opinion. So basically, gatekeeping via labels ensure that I don't have waste my time on crap like that.

Principle of least effort :))

I agree, the world of digital releases is total chaos and a mess as there is no practical way for a listener to discern what is what in terms of quality if one has the daunting task of searching through an entire landfill. A question I have is how gatekeepers today keep up with the daunting task of doing the filtering process when confronted with the sheer volume of output due to democratisation of the means of creation. Someone in the comments mentioned that some labels/reviewers don't accept material but prefer to do themselves the selection process. So where do they look at? Does that mean they face the same demoralising prospect of filtering thousands of half baked digital releases as the causal listener on Bandcamp would do.

Doubt it. I mean when you're deep into a scene you get to know enough active people to hear from potentially good projects from friends and acquaintances . But yeah there could be a brilliant harsh noise project somewhere in the Bandcamp landfill that we'll never hear.

This talk of gatekeepers within the context of a scene as miniscule as noise is just selfish. Selfish people who think that because they have to work with other people to get their stuff out to be heard they're being put down of kept from expressing themselves. It's all just another example of modern day social media mentality: only thing that matters in anything is me and my experience.

To put context into what Commander15 was talking about concerning "gatekeeping" in finland, the recent case was polemic of certain antifascists being concerned that artists who have released material on FA, even as form of mere compilation track, should maybe not be allowed to play in antifascist venue. For being dirty fascist collaborators.  There was theory explained, that true antifascist can not join for example Terässinfonia compilation series, and therefore FA as gatekeeper pushes them into side, not to be recognized as part of Finnish noise history and by doing that normalizes fascism (and sexism) as known qualities of Finnish noise.

It is funny notion, as most people who are really into noise, know that I have zero problems supporting and publishing antifascist noise if they meet the quality standards label has. Many such artists have had no problem working in terms that feels acceptable to all parties involved. However, there is now the new breed guys who feel entitled to attempt to make guidelines how scene is allowed to work. Peer pressure in parts of the scene is probably just about same as it is in some other countries? Guys hunting down dirty links, who worked with who, what year, who should issue apology or casted out to not be enough.. something. Pretending to "raise discussion", while tactics are tagging venues day before questioning why someone is allowed to play etc.  Talk about gatekeeping, haha....

It should be obvious, noise has space for anyone. It is not homogenous single minded community. Nobody is forced to work with eachother, but in all honesty, if idea of gatekeeping is throw into discussion, it would be good to acknowledge who are the gatekeepers who want to prevent, suppress, silence and sabotage opportunities and make it difficult and unpredictable for even guys who are pretty much on the same side. And who are the ones aiming to advance, popularize, enable and help all things good noise. I don't think this topic needs much more attention and there is lots of good artists in difficult position who should not get further shit thrown at them. Trying to balance with openminded tradition of noise scene and finding themselves pulled into games of... lets say less open minded contemporary circles.

It was inevitable that current identity politics enter the noise scene as they have every other music scene. I'm actually surprised noise seemed to be a free-for-all playing field for so long. But I guess in the end everything is political, even noise and who you choose to collaborate, play or do business with. Especially if a person is actively involved in fringe politics, rather than just releasing artists who have controversial political opnions and perhaps having personal opinions on the matter. I'm personally really fed up with right wingers and anarchist activists bringing their political strife to music and gigs. I wish noise could just concentrate on itself rather than these tiresome social games.

And while I greatly appreciate your work as an artist and running a label, I do think you cast such a large shadow on the finnish scene and people's perception of noise as a whole that it distracts people from the actual content and intent of artists who have nothing to do with you or FA, which is a shame and not really fair. Not to mention the artists who have worked with you recently. If working with someone gets you pigeonholed into something you don't agree with and puts in you the middle of an argument you have no interest in being a part of, is it really worth it?

Quote from: host body on February 24, 2023, 10:58:57 AM
And while I greatly appreciate your work as an artist and running a label, I do think you cast such a large shadow on the finnish scene and people's perception of noise as a whole that it distracts people from the actual content and intent of artists who have nothing to do with you or FA, which is a shame and not really fair. Not to mention the artists who have worked with you recently. If working with someone gets you pigeonholed into something you don't agree with and puts in you the middle of an argument you have no interest in being a part of, is it really worth it?

This is mostly the question, that being dragged in middle of argument gets tiresome for people who have nothing to do it with. This is exactly the point I was making. One can look who are the ones who keep building noise and supporting it in all shapes and forms. And who are the ones making mess and bullying people until they run out of steam and think it ain't worth it.

FA has been pushing new good Finn noise since mid 90's, keeps doing it now. Some artists are vile, many artists are not. Why many people put so much emphasis on the shadow side is probably question they should ask themselves. It is like people who insists on noise being vulgar - while those who are actually into that stuff almost can't find it. It is so marginal in contemporary noise and visible almost nowhere - except is you really do the legwork and go to find it. Especially the older generation of Finn noise has stepped aside and left so much space that it would be weird to put blame on them.
For me personally, it may be old school attitude, but I stand for noise in its all incarnations and believe it can work together and keep morphing into new interesting things. Some mess has to be tolerated as it is unavoidable in human interaction, but intentionally advocating such thing seems foolish.

Quote from: host body on February 24, 2023, 10:58:57 AM
It was inevitable that current identity politics enter the noise scene as they have every other music scene. I'm actually surprised noise seemed to be a free-for-all playing field for so long. But I guess in the end everything is political, even noise and who you choose to collaborate, play or do business with. Especially if a person is actively involved in fringe politics, rather than just releasing artists who have controversial political opnions and perhaps having personal opinions on the matter. I'm personally really fed up with right wingers and anarchist activists bringing their political strife to music and gigs. I wish noise could just concentrate on itself rather than these tiresome social games.

it may be tiresome after so long, but to be fair its also the best working effect to get people into the noise scene. just noise doesn't work too well and the mathematic/technical/art side doesn't get also much people into the scene. Depend whats better, nearly no listeners or a lot of stupid attitudes from idiotic listeners

Quote from: Goat93 on February 25, 2023, 12:16:12 PM

Quote from: host body on February 24, 2023, 10:58:57 AM
It was inevitable that current identity politics enter the noise scene as they have every other music scene. I'm actually surprised noise seemed to be a free-for-all playing field for so long. But I guess in the end everything is political, even noise and who you choose to collaborate, play or do business with. Especially if a person is actively involved in fringe politics, rather than just releasing artists who have controversial political opnions and perhaps having personal opinions on the matter. I'm personally really fed up with right wingers and anarchist activists bringing their political strife to music and gigs. I wish noise could just concentrate on itself rather than these tiresome social games.

it may be tiresome after so long, but to be fair its also the best working effect to get people into the noise scene. just noise doesn't work too well and the mathematic/technical/art side doesn't get also much people into the scene. Depend whats better, nearly no listeners or a lot of stupid attitudes from idiotic listeners

I would argue that the idpol crowd will inevitably bring their own, inherited operating models to the scene. In case of i.e finnish HC punk scene, those would mean forcing microlevel rock business hierarchies into noise, rigorious persecution of percieved "harmdoers", dependancy on city-funded venues or standard, bland rock clubs and degeneration of traditional distros, trading and overall communication etc.

Quote from: Commander15 on February 25, 2023, 01:00:40 PM

Quote from: Goat93 on February 25, 2023, 12:16:12 PM

Quote from: host body on February 24, 2023, 10:58:57 AM
It was inevitable that current identity politics enter the noise scene as they have every other music scene. I'm actually surprised noise seemed to be a free-for-all playing field for so long. But I guess in the end everything is political, even noise and who you choose to collaborate, play or do business with. Especially if a person is actively involved in fringe politics, rather than just releasing artists who have controversial political opnions and perhaps having personal opinions on the matter. I'm personally really fed up with right wingers and anarchist activists bringing their political strife to music and gigs. I wish noise could just concentrate on itself rather than these tiresome social games.

it may be tiresome after so long, but to be fair its also the best working effect to get people into the noise scene. just noise doesn't work too well and the mathematic/technical/art side doesn't get also much people into the scene. Depend whats better, nearly no listeners or a lot of stupid attitudes from idiotic listeners

I would argue that the idpol crowd will inevitably bring their own, inherited operating models to the scene. In case of i.e finnish HC punk scene, those would mean forcing microlevel rock business hierarchies into noise, rigorious persecution of percieved "harmdoers", dependancy on city-funded venues or standard, bland rock clubs and degeneration of traditional distros, trading and overall communication etc.

This brings the "Gatekeepers" into play, cause they exist only in this Microlevel Scenes and it won't get new Blood into the scene. There are already a lot of Microscenes dying all along and nobody cares

Quote from: Goat93 on February 25, 2023, 12:16:12 PM

Quote from: host body on February 24, 2023, 10:58:57 AM
It was inevitable that current identity politics enter the noise scene as they have every other music scene. I'm actually surprised noise seemed to be a free-for-all playing field for so long. But I guess in the end everything is political, even noise and who you choose to collaborate, play or do business with. Especially if a person is actively involved in fringe politics, rather than just releasing artists who have controversial political opnions and perhaps having personal opinions on the matter. I'm personally really fed up with right wingers and anarchist activists bringing their political strife to music and gigs. I wish noise could just concentrate on itself rather than these tiresome social games.

it may be tiresome after so long, but to be fair its also the best working effect to get people into the noise scene. just noise doesn't work too well and the mathematic/technical/art side doesn't get also much people into the scene. Depend whats better, nearly no listeners or a lot of stupid attitudes from idiotic listeners

More people coming in for the most annoying and wrong reasons is much worse than them not coming in at all. Numbers aren't a good thing just because they are numbers.

Quote from: PTM Jim on February 25, 2023, 11:11:02 PM

Quote from: Goat93 on February 25, 2023, 12:16:12 PM

Quote from: host body on February 24, 2023, 10:58:57 AM
It was inevitable that current identity politics enter the noise scene as they have every other music scene. I'm actually surprised noise seemed to be a free-for-all playing field for so long. But I guess in the end everything is political, even noise and who you choose to collaborate, play or do business with. Especially if a person is actively involved in fringe politics, rather than just releasing artists who have controversial political opnions and perhaps having personal opinions on the matter. I'm personally really fed up with right wingers and anarchist activists bringing their political strife to music and gigs. I wish noise could just concentrate on itself rather than these tiresome social games.

it may be tiresome after so long, but to be fair its also the best working effect to get people into the noise scene. just noise doesn't work too well and the mathematic/technical/art side doesn't get also much people into the scene. Depend whats better, nearly no listeners or a lot of stupid attitudes from idiotic listeners

More people coming in for the most annoying and wrong reasons is much worse than them not coming in at all. Numbers aren't a good thing just because they are numbers.

Agreed. Quality over quantity every time.

Quote from: host body on February 24, 2023, 10:58:57 AM
It was inevitable that current identity politics enter the noise scene as they have every other music scene.

We've seen this kind of thing before, with the whole "hipster noise" ballyhoo that happened in the 2000's. It must be generational.

There is something comical in the fact of being rejected, because we release music online only, by ... webzines.

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 26, 2023, 04:54:07 AM

Quote from: host body on February 24, 2023, 10:58:57 AM
It was inevitable that current identity politics enter the noise scene as they have every other music scene.

We've seen this kind of thing before, with the whole "hipster noise" ballyhoo that happened in the 2000's. It must be generational.

I stopped going to shows in NYC for this reason. Everyone is either obese or khazarian or has gender dysphoria. Sometimes all 3.

Don't get it twisted.

It's a class war NOT a culture war.

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 26, 2023, 04:54:07 AM

Quote from: host body on February 24, 2023, 10:58:57 AM
It was inevitable that current identity politics enter the noise scene as they have every other music scene.

We've seen this kind of thing before, with the whole "hipster noise" ballyhoo that happened in the 2000's. It must be generational.

I think this recent phenomenon is bit different as it seem to be more about forcing certain fixed sets of values, worldviews and political stances to already existing scene than really contributing and creating in postive meaning.

Quote from: Commander15 on March 21, 2023, 09:52:16 AM
I think this recent phenomenon is bit different as it seem to be more about forcing certain fixed sets of values, worldviews and political stances to already existing scene than really contributing and creating in postive meaning.

I think the similarities are that both phenomena are people trying to make Noise more culturally respectable and acceptable, for their respective times. Both are certainly more acceptable to music crits, for example.

so is Mark Solotroff doing AWB "idpol"? is that acceptable because it's "transgressive"? if Commander 15 has had this certain experience with Finnish hardcore kids or whatever, it is not a realistic analysis to say something like "THE noise scene" is being afflicted by this. you have a certain perception of some alleged people trying to "force" values onto noise. my experience is that nobody outside of noise gives a shit about this. who's correct?

edit: if a new kid were getting into noise RIGHT NOW, it would be way easier for them to hear about and get releases from Satatuhatta rather than Filth and Violence. Does this mean the hardcore kids have won their ideological battle? did they force Vilho to release all that stuff with colorful artwork? or is it more likely people have always had different tastes and perspectives, and "the noise scene" isn't an ideological monolith?

Quote from: chryptusrecords on March 22, 2023, 05:21:14 PM
edit: if a new kid were getting into noise RIGHT NOW, it would be way easier for them to hear about and get releases from Satatuhatta rather than Filth and Violence. Does this mean the hardcore kids have won their ideological battle? did they force Vilho to release all that stuff with colorful artwork? or is it more likely people have always had different tastes and perspectives, and "the noise scene" isn't an ideological monolith?

Yeah, I mean "vile shit" has always been a pretty big theme in noise but far from the only, or even prevalent the or aesthetic. And I know no one forced Satatuhatta to do anything, it's all Vilho and the artists he works with.

it seems like filth and violence was definitely forced further underground in some way, but on the other hand, with material so extreme it should be expected. not trying to justify censorship here, just being realistic. its the curse of the internet i guess, f&v could probably have had operated just fine in the 90s or something, when only people actually into noise knew about it. but i don't think the greater publics reaction would have been any different in the 80s if they were to discover stuff like mauthausen orchestra...

Quote from: chryptusrecords on March 22, 2023, 05:21:14 PM
so is Mark Solotroff doing AWB "idpol"? is that acceptable because it's "transgressive"? if Commander 15 has had this certain experience with Finnish hardcore kids or whatever, it is not a realistic analysis to say something like "THE noise scene" is being afflicted by this. you have a certain perception of some alleged people trying to "force" values onto noise. my experience is that nobody outside of noise gives a shit about this. who's correct?

edit: if a new kid were getting into noise RIGHT NOW, it would be way easier for them to hear about and get releases from Satatuhatta rather than Filth and Violence. Does this mean the hardcore kids have won their ideological battle? did they force Vilho to release all that stuff with colorful artwork? or is it more likely people have always had different tastes and perspectives, and "the noise scene" isn't an ideological monolith?

Well my takes here are mainly based on my observations of some recent noise related polemics here in Finland. It may or may not be possible to observe similar kind of development in other countries as well. If not, that's great.

That edit of yours is nonsensical and straw man-y. I didn't claim anything like that in my previous posts.

Quote from: Commander15 on March 21, 2023, 09:52:16 AM
forcing certain fixed sets of values, worldviews and political stances to already existing scene  

this is what i'm referring to. who is doing this "forcing?" where does it manifest? what are the values of this "existing scene" that are being "forced" out?

i didnt mean to be straw manning your point, my questions are more general, when our small scene crashes up against other scenes or even bigger culture, it is a chance to reflect on what makes noise 'unique.' we shouldn't shy away from the ill-informed perception of outsiders if we're publishing works and releasing them into the world. "the scene" is porous  

edit, again: we either have control, or proliferation, just like with nuclear weapons!

this is only tangentially related, but there is a lot of artistic credibility to be siphoned out of noise for opportunistic so and so's. There are plenty of negative polemics to be written by people looking for their next gig! perhaps this is due to so much of the discussion of noise and industrial history happens in semi-private, informal ways, like this forum. the 'perception' of noise is yet to be firmly established, unlike say hardcore punk which has definite connotations. the downside of this is something like those academic or journalistic books that try to write the 'history of noise' and end up being full of obvious oversights and simplistic analysis.

Quote from: chryptusrecords on March 22, 2023, 07:09:45 PM

Quote from: Commander15 on March 21, 2023, 09:52:16 AM
forcing certain fixed sets of values, worldviews and political stances to already existing scene  

this is what i'm referring to. who is doing this "forcing?" where does it manifest? what are the values of this "existing scene" that are being "forced" out?

i didnt mean to be straw manning your point, my questions are more general, when our small scene crashes up against other scenes or even bigger culture, it is a chance to reflect on what makes noise 'unique.' we shouldn't shy away from the ill-informed perception of outsiders if we're publishing works and releasing them into the world. "the scene" is porous  

edit, again: we either have control, or proliferation, just like with nuclear weapons!

In these cases that i'm referring to, the forcing party would be hc-punk related group of more or less anonymous, self-proclaimed anarchists and antifascists with somewhat limited knowledge of noise and industrial culture in general. In these cases Finnish noise scene and several artists working within were accused of entryism or normalizing fascism because their "connections" within the noise scene. Pretty quickly discourse changed into how noise scene should be "cleansed" etc. etc.

I think that the main values, that are being forced out, is the pluralism within the noise and
artistic expressions and relationships that doesn't fit in the dualistic, partisan "pure/unpure" or "fascist/antifascist" worldview of this certain crowd.

Chryptusrecords is certainly right in a way that noise is not one place. It is not one "community", where you could somehow kick out or cleanse something. All types of things co-exist, and vast majority of people are very flexibly interested all things good noise. Same guy will buy Joe Colley and Xenophobic Ejaculation, Slit Throats, Envenomists and Brethren. For many there is no division or factions. All things noise is liked, and supported. Many times there is no active opposition for something.  Like thinking someone is editing Golf magazine. He is being offered article and photos about rubber fetish. Editor doesn't have to oppose and boycott anything, when he simply says I don't see why my magazine should have such stuff, when it's about... other things.   In same way noise label may not want political rant recording or filthy sex, if that's not what they are aiming to express with label they are doing. They may have nothing against such thing existing in realm of noise and certainly not calling for action against it. Simply do not fit their own idea how they run things. Absolutely good thing.

As opposed to "scene pressure", I suppose there has been talk elsewhere about social media guidelines and such being counterproductive for underground. Guiding what kind of records you can even talk to. What kind of records you could post and review. Something against the guidelines, and these is strong possibility that you'll be soon out. This can quickly lead that noise or power electronics we can, or we feel we can talk is certain type, and rest we can not mention. Just like distro or podcast needs to consider can they mention bands like X and Y, so people who dislike those bands, do not press report button just out of spite. Because they know it may eventually mean restricted visibility and such.

I am fine with other places restricting visibility. As example, Finnish Experimental Music group (facebook), dedicated to promotion and news and whatever, does not allow anything related to Freak Animal or Filth & Violence posted on it. Regardless the content or release or artist. If artists post that they have this great new album out, message is deleted. I don't mind and I know F&V could not care less. It is just funny, that the mentioned group is so quiet and dead, despite 4 digit followers, that only thing that can stir discussion is mentioned labels. Everything else causes pure apathy. Too bad, but that's how it is.


I think it can be revealing to tell how SI as forum was born. Those who have been around for couple decades, easily remember importance of chondritic/troniks forum. Those who were on forum early enough, may remember that it was not THAT big in beginning. Not all those sections and subsections. There was like noise talk, that included just about everything. Quite soon it became clear, that just about every time some power electronics and industrial noise was being talked or advertised, there was influx of dorks who always were there trolling and dissing. You know the type. That guy who can't hold his horses about "oh porn again! oh this is so old! Noise is not all about filth!". Indeed, but that's like only thing they appear to be obsessed about. So suggestion was there, why not have NOISE and POWER ELECTRONICS as separate sections. Who to put in charge of PE side, who can handle the expected slander, abuse and shit throwing? Maybe that dude from Finland who can handle anything, eh eh... That's what happened. Whining about it was still enough that moderators wrote script that you can't say my name on the forum. People may remember that typing "mikko" on that forum resulted name being automatically replaced by word "dogfart". That was great fun.

I may be biased to say, but it really shifted dynamics of forum, where A LOT of interesting discussion of both, power electronics AND noise was happening on that section. Eventually when the main forum was falling into endless bickering and shit talk and drama, it was time to open SI forum. First invite all the regulars of that forum Power electronics/industrial noise side, then make it public for anyone to use. Those early days of forum set the example what kind of discussion is encouraged. If you stir drama, if you stir fights, if you keep trolling and mocking as main activity - then GTFO. This is forum for noise lovers. If you really fucking loooove the noise, you have the resilience for the qualities and expressions that are not your own taste. Go to different topic, talk about different thing. Pursue into active advancement of your favorite noise, not endlessly whining and bitching about something you dislike. I would assume anyone looking into mirror can honestly evaluate if they tend to be generally bitching about or advancing noise. I know some can't help it, but as a forum moderator I strongly advocate the latter one for purpose of pushing noise to your favorite direction. Whatever that may be.

Guideline for dummies: Open topic about artist / label / release you want people to know and talk about, not topic of artist who you think sucks ass. On this forum, all styles of noise ok.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 23, 2023, 08:32:12 AM
Chryptusrecords is certainly right in a way that noise is not one place. It is not one "community", where you could somehow kick out or cleanse something. All types of things co-exist, and vast majority of people are very flexibly interested all things good noise. Same guy will buy Joe Colley and Xenophobic Ejaculation, Slit Throats, Envenomists and Brethren. For many there is no division or factions. All things noise is liked, and supported. Many times there is no active opposition for something.  Like thinking someone is editing Golf magazine. He is being offered article and photos about rubber fetish. Editor doesn't have to oppose and boycott anything, when he simply says I don't see why my magazine should have such stuff, when it's about... other things.   In same way noise label may not want political rant recording or filthy sex, if that's not what they are aiming to express with label they are doing. They may have nothing against such thing existing in realm of noise and certainly not calling for action against it. Simply do not fit their own idea how they run things. Absolutely good thing.

As opposed to "scene pressure", I suppose there has been talk elsewhere about social media guidelines and such being counterproductive for underground. Guiding what kind of records you can even talk to. What kind of records you could post and review. Something against the guidelines, and these is strong possibility that you'll be soon out. This can quickly lead that noise or power electronics we can, or we feel we can talk is certain type, and rest we can not mention. Just like distro or podcast needs to consider can they mention bands like X and Y, so people who dislike those bands, do not press report button just out of spite. Because they know it may eventually mean restricted visibility and such.

I am fine with other places restricting visibility. As example, Finnish Experimental Music group (facebook), dedicated to promotion and news and whatever, does not allow anything related to Freak Animal or Filth & Violence posted on it. Regardless the content or release or artist. If artists post that they have this great new album out, message is deleted. I don't mind and I know F&V could not care less. It is just funny, that the mentioned group is so quiet and dead, despite 4 digit followers, that only thing that can stir discussion is mentioned labels. Everything else causes pure apathy. Too bad, but that's how it is.


I think it can be revealing to tell how SI as forum was born. Those who have been around for couple decades, easily remember importance of chondritic/troniks forum. Those who were on forum early enough, may remember that it was not THAT big in beginning. Not all those sections and subsections. There was like noise talk, that included just about everything. Quite soon it became clear, that just about every time some power electronics and industrial noise was being talked or advertised, there was influx of dorks who always were there trolling and dissing. You know the type. That guy who can't hold his horses about "oh porn again! oh this is so old! Noise is not all about filth!". Indeed, but that's like only thing they appear to be obsessed about. So suggestion was there, why not have NOISE and POWER ELECTRONICS as separate sections. Who to put in charge of PE side, who can handle the expected slander, abuse and shit throwing? Maybe that dude from Finland who can handle anything, eh eh... That's what happened. Whining about it was still enough that moderators wrote script that you can't say my name on the forum. People may remember that typing "mikko" on that forum resulted name being automatically replaced by word "dogfart". That was great fun.

I may be biased to say, but it really shifted dynamics of forum, where A LOT of interesting discussion of both, power electronics AND noise was happening on that section. Eventually when the main forum was falling into endless bickering and shit talk and drama, it was time to open SI forum. First invite all the regulars of that forum Power electronics/industrial noise side, then make it public for anyone to use. Those early days of forum set the example what kind of discussion is encouraged. If you stir drama, if you stir fights, if you keep trolling and mocking as main activity - then GTFO. This is forum for noise lovers. If you really fucking loooove the noise, you have the resilience for the qualities and expressions that are not your own taste. Go to different topic, talk about different thing. Pursue into active advancement of your favorite noise, not endlessly whining and bitching about something you dislike. I would assume anyone looking into mirror can honestly evaluate if they tend to be generally bitching about or advancing noise. I know some can't help it, but as a forum moderator I strongly advocate the latter one for purpose of pushing noise to your favorite direction. Whatever that may be.

Guideline for dummies: Open topic about artist / label / release you want people to know and talk about, not topic of artist who you think sucks ass. On this forum, all styles of noise ok.

I agree with you and chryptusrecords with the fact that noise is not one place or community. And i think that in many ways the "tourists", that in these cases that i'm referring to, think that noise / industrial scene is just this big uniform lump of questionable themes, connections and people that must be somehow changed.

But anyway, my intent wasn't to bicker or argue! Sorry if it came out that way. I am all for advancing the noise in positive and creative manner.

Commander 15 certainly not bickering here. Discussion, even heated one is quite different from the bad tempered petty quarrels of trivialities. This topic is fine with me when it elaborates certain things of noise.

Don't know about gatekeepers, which sounds corny, but elitism is good. We need more of it and less of every label putting out every shitty horrid thing made by their friends or those accepted in their "scenes." People can make and put out whatever junk they want but someone needs to sort through the worthy and the garbage and make distinctions.

Quote from: AdamLehrerImageMaker on March 24, 2023, 05:00:25 PM
People can make and put out whatever junk they want but someone needs to sort through the worthy and the garbage and make distinctions.

Gerogerigegege


One word. Okay, go nuts.