I have been off the loop for over a year, so I hope I don't overlap with existing threads.
For those who work with concept-based releases, how do you choose the topic you are going to deal? Do you follow a method for collecting and using those concept? What is the most difficult challenge you encounter while doing this?
I ask this because all my projects boast conceptual approach, and as much I feels it gives a different soul to what I do, it's the main reason I delay releases for months/years as anybody who is expecting releases from me knows...
While I am definitely not nearly as accomplished as some people/users here are in regards to this, I have tried to do some conceptual tracks. I have found that I am never able to just pick a topic and go for it. I don't really know how to quite put it into words, but the topic needs to just be there. It is not something that I can seek out, it sort of has to find its way to me.
I also would be really interested in hearing the methods/challenges found by others.
All I guess IMO.
The term "Conceptual" applied to art is tricky, a good place to start would be Duchamp's non-retial art
"Duchamp wanted to use art to serve the mind." So you begin with the idea. The idea here is Non-Cochlear Sound - from Seth Kim-Cohen ... He has written on this...
It's not always then necessary to release a 'sound' track. Someone whose name I forget made a length of wood 4 yards and 33 inches ... 4' 33" ..... ;-)
If you excuse me using my own work as examples...
This was a not released as a CD but as how to create the WAV using MSWORD
The shortest possible CD
http://jliat.com/TSPM.pdf (http://jliat.com/TSPM.pdf)
This is one of my favourites – if an Audio CD is the size of the sun what size and distance are the planets.
http://www.jliat.com/PLANETS.html (http://www.jliat.com/PLANETS.html)
http://jliat.com/ss.pdf (http://jliat.com/ss.pdf)
http://www.jliat.com/tg/THEGRANDS-pdf.pdf (http://www.jliat.com/tg/THEGRANDS-pdf.pdf)
etc.
One last one is this
Occurrences of Grandi's series (in art) the wiki page...
The CD consists of +1s and -1s which is inaudible – I had this made as a CD, had a great exchange with the pressing plant...
My method probably is pretty common/basic, but i work like this:
I search samples, dialogues, etc... and i store it in different folders for topic on computer
Then, i start to build tracks around samples.
I try to tell a "story".
So there is the beginning, the central part and the end.
Pretty standard method i think.
But works fine for what i do.
Another thing that tends to limit/facilitate what I do in terms of visual art (which is, for me, an important way to sketch out/represent the concepts that I try to explore with my music) is that I cannot source images from the Internet. It is too easy to find specific images/ideas, and I feel that anything that I try that solely relies on Internet-derived images feels fake. Apart from a few specific images that I think I need, I only source text and pictures from newspapers. That way I have to take a more active role in filtering out what I want and what I do not. Doing this helps get the concepts clearer in my head, and, hence, prepares me for doing my music.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on March 08, 2021, 09:19:57 PM
I cannot source images from the Internet. It is too easy to find specific images/ideas, and I feel that anything that I try that solely relies on Internet-derived images feels fake.
100% with you on this. I absolutely refuse to use internet images for my own work or if I do work for anyone else. I do however allow it if someone does their own art for a release on Fusty.
As for conceptual release, it's usually something I, at least, have passing knowledge on but prefer to know more about it and then read up more if possible. I try to gather sounds that represent the concept if I can (i.e. tape using only saw sources and packaged on a saw blade.) which is a bit easier for harsh noise concepts, but a bit trickier for PE if not just using news clips etc (the stuff you do with Caligula feels authentic).
Working on an album based on silicon valley and trying to get some bay area sounds is a challenge because I live 2000 miles away. So geography can be the biggest obstacle for me since I'm not able to travel as much. Geography seems to be so unbelievably important, but taken for granted. People that use it wall off the top of my head are Grant from Gnawed, Stefan from Kjostad and Dom for various things while on the road.
I've done it, but it's not my preferred thing to do, recording wise. The times I have done conceptual works, it's been in response to my immediate surroundings. But, in general, I already have a good personal idea of what kind of moods I'm trying to emulate and invoke, that don't require metaphor or decoration.
It was different when I was still doing live nonsense, because it seemed to me that a good live gig needed to be more than just standing there playing with my knobs. I still stand by that, but I don't play live or go to gigs any more so it's not an immediate concern.
Lately I've been doing videos which might be described as "conceptual" by others, perhaps, but the point is just to provide visuals which work with the sounds. Nothing too deep has to be read into any of it.
Quote from: PTM Jim on March 09, 2021, 04:55:52 AM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on March 08, 2021, 09:19:57 PM
I cannot source images from the Internet. It is too easy to find specific images/ideas, and I feel that anything that I try that solely relies on Internet-derived images feels fake.
a bit trickier for PE if not just using news clips etc (the stuff you do with Caligula feels authentic).
Authenticity is interesting in this context, and I think is is really important. I have had a really hard time finding samples of audio for various concepts because I don't really have access to any primary source materials (though getting some would probably solve my problem!). It feels like another example of the Internet making things "too easy," as I can look up almost any speech/recording related to any topic without any effort.
It seems most people here are using 'conceptual' in away not generally associated with Art. That's OK, and I don't want to start any war or anything like that. But I do think with a 'conceptual' work the idea is normally more important than the media, or some story or mood. A concept is not a mood or a story, and relatively 'cool'. And the source material is really irrelevant – or should be – Duchamp's urinal for instance. I'm not sure then why the term is being used in these other cases? I guess the term is just banded around like in the case of the YBAs.
"Conceptual art, also referred to as conceptualism, is art in which the concept(s) or idea(s) involved in the work take precedence over traditional aesthetic, technical, and material concerns. Some works of conceptual art, sometimes called installations, may be constructed by anyone simply by following a set of written instructions. This method was fundamental to American artist Sol LeWitt's definition of conceptual art, one of the first to appear in print:
"In conceptual art the idea or concept is the most important aspect of the work. When an artist uses a conceptual form of art, it means that all of the planning and decisions are made beforehand and the execution is a perfunctory affair. The idea becomes a machine that makes the art.""
In the Blink of an Ear: Toward a Non-cochlear Sonic Art by Seth Kim-Cohen - ?
@Jliat: in German there is the term "Konzept-Album" which usually describes a musical album which, in content and presentation, is inspired, deals with or is constructed from material that is related to a certain topic. I think this is what is meant here when we art talking about "conceptual".
It is not the same as conceptual art, where the conceptual works and ideas are the actual art and the execution of the f.e. painting itself can be done, but does not have to be done.
Hi, the term 'Concept Album' has been around for some time, notably The Who & Tommy, Pink Floyd's Wall... Yes – Tales from ... from personal experience... So if those above are thinking in those terms – fine. However there could be a confusion with soundworks which are 'conceptual' in themselves, such as described in Seth's book. One feature of 'conceptual art' is often that of questioning the practice itself, e.g. Conceptual Poetry... in music obviously Cage... and that is how and why Noise was originally of so much interest. The rock opera – concept album something very different. So yes, if those above are making such 'thematic' works I can see why they use the term. Which begs the question can noise have a theme? ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept_album (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept_album)
We're definitely using the term 'concept' as in 'concept album' here, for the most part at least. A consistent theme or narrative throughout a given release etc. JLIAT's own work which he references is the only thing so far which falls into the 'conceptual art' camp and I certainly have a lot of time for those kind of works. I'm not sure if I agree that the ideas within work of this nature are often more important than the media however, because often the mode of delivery is an essential part of the concept and the statement, if any, that is being made. Again, JLIAT's stuff which plays around with different presentations of PCM data and CD capacity seems an example that the media is the message (!) though I know my understanding of it is probably flawed.
I often wonder if 'sound art' would be a better term for a lot of things that have feet in either or both these areas. For the most part it's a term hijacked by shitty careerist or student artists but I think it has a great application for work which uses the medium of sound to (attempt) framing particular actions or events in an aesthetic context. Or highlight some aspect of an aesthetic or political statement in a sonic setting. Something like Ake Hodell's Strukturer III' and its 'authentic acoustic progression through the great wars of the 20th century' is rife with intent yet is just the sounds of gun shots on one level. Something else like Joe Colley's mic'd up bucket of drying concrete perhaps exists most authentically as an interesting (?) sonic spotlight shone on some fairly mundane materials but its knowledge of the proclivities and context of its listeners turn it into quite a pointed aesthetic object which belongs in a particular kind of audio culture. The medium is inextricable in both cases though we'd probably say the ideas (or concepts) behind them are more so.
Firstly I don't think there is a hard and fast demarcation between works which are 'aesthetic' and works which are 'conceptual' (art as idea), to say that a piece of music has no conceptual element is nonsense, and likewise though I once would have argued otherwise there is an aesthetic to even the most conceptual work. I mean books are nice objects. I tend to come at music from a fine art background... and sure the stuff using PCM data involves the medium, but in my case they more question its nature – 'just what is recorded on a CD?' But other stuff is more 'conceptual' in ideas such as the Schrodinger work. For me work like "Joe Colley's mic'd up bucket of drying concrete" seems more minimal than conceptual – like the work of Serra and Andre, in passing I remember a work from some Israeli artist using a bucket of spent shell cases...quite poignant as for the artist a common object from their context... And sure names can be a pain, but I think 'Sound Art' despite its use and abuse is useful. Though Serra again,
"I do not make art," Richard Serra says, "I am engaged in an activity; if someone wants to call it art, that's his business, but it's not up to me to decide that. That's all figured out later."
To me, coming back to the original question to be discussed in this thread, a distinction between "thematic" works (which would include concept-albums in their usual definition) and "conceptual art" on the other hand would be sufficient.
Edit: which does not mean the other question that rose up ("can noise have a theme?", aesthetic vs. concept etc.) should not be discussed or are not interesting. But I think it may be useful to do this in separate threads.
Sometimes the concept comes after recording. Compositions are made, and then certain themes are researched for lyric inspiration. Artwork can also come later, usually once the tracks start to take form and inspire a visual representation.
Or - a sample sparks an entire release and it all flows from there.
I usually do releases based on my own interests, in a way that the research is done regardless will there be "a release" or "art" based on them. Detailed knowledge of subject and cumulated material has usually happened before there was intent to do release about it. Very rarely material is created sort of "on demand", to follow the idea. They come in realization in moment of creation or when evaluating the material. Hearing the recorded work, that may have born out of mere improvisation, but results has strong aura that basically guides you further. In that way, my works are certainly anti-conceptual art in many aspects. While there is certainly ideas, themes and concepts, the end result itself, including is aesthetic significance is utterly important.
I think topic of conceptual art and concept album is tied together in noise, quite often. Most noise will NEVER be pure conceptual art in a way it is meant in art history. However, within noise sound, there is plenty of material where
idea seems more important than end result? Also shitloads of examples where idea is there as sound object, that works musically - but is nevertheless most likely to be filed under "idea more important than sound".
Quote from: JLIAT on March 09, 2021, 01:19:11 PM
I don't think there is a hard and fast demarcation between works which are 'aesthetic' and works which are 'conceptual' (art as idea), to say that a piece of music has no conceptual element is nonsense, and likewise though I once would have argued otherwise there is an aesthetic to even the most conceptual work.
It quickly can lead to conclusion, that we may use conceptual sound, just as a choice of word besides "thematic sound". Or that this thematic and conceptual sound does indeed work as purely aesthetic sense.
Lets say works of Con-Dom. In many cases, songs include sound elements that are not selected based on "sounding good", but because conceptually it belongs there. That release turned out musically good (atleast to some ears), would not take away fact that layering together couple train sounds and some whipping.. would be conceptual art in its core.
As we are not in that artworld, we are not bound to use their language, their terminology, or restrictions what should be done in order to be truly conceptual art. One could listen for example:
Shift: To Rid Them All And To Wash Their Filth From My Body. Dark and oppressing synth tone has sort of expressive and musical quality to it, while the other element is sound of... what I would assume to be grave digging - at least in symbolic manner. If not literally burying corpses, at least burying
them and
their filth. I consider this track one of best examples of how artist manages to push the sound beyond abstract, to become far more concrete. It still is purely idea. Sound itself may be of whatever mundane origin. Source being unknown. In case of Shift, one can say that indeed he
plays the sound as instrument, therefore it is no longer just idea, but the end result has more value. It is aesthetically interesting. Usage of effects, the compositional aspects and so on. That, to me, is not bad thing at all. Artist on the other side, could take it as a lesson. Not the other way round. Noise does not need
their guidelines or their history.
One example of at least seemingly conceptual noise would be The Rita. While artist has ton of GOOD NOISE on his discography, there is also abundance of things what seems 100% conceptual art. Lets take the recent track in New Forces comp CD as example. Would anyone say the end result would qualify as "great noise"? I have my doubts. Like in conceptual art, you require liner notes, explanation, and then "huh? yeah, nice". What you see or hear, is not the piece of art, but the concept behind it. You need to know idea what this is related to. As a sound, as "noise piece", it is certainly weakest on the comp by far, carrying pretty much zero value in sense of
stuff you'd listen to. Does it make it bad? As a conceptual art, probably not!
Out of these example, I could definitely see The Rita in museum. Or in art gallery. I could not see Shift there. I would see such institution would ruin all what can be archived in pitch black venue filled with smoke, tormenting lights and oppressive soundsystem.
There is often a bit of tongue in cheek joking about specific qualities in "tough noise". Where it indeed somehow can be seen to be nearly conceptual art. If someone presents the masked man, with rusty chain, hitting badly amplified tiny tin can on stage... how this would not be all conceptial, all idea, zero about good and tasty end result? Someone can say it is all purely
aesthetic, not
conceptual, but I guess this is merely matter of snobbish attitude where something needs to be on wall of Tate Modern and subject of thesis. I reject that.
I could but wont write a deal about this topic. ;-) one point I would make is that any conceptual work which uses metaphor faces a problem of the cliché. Someone said that "Artists" create new metaphors which have a 'life', that once overused becomes dead. I think there is a truth in that. (It's to easy to use the sound of chains clanking with tons of reverb - the MSG of sound – to create the "scary" feel). And if that kind of thing is wanted there are plenty of tropes, famously in the Hitchcock films, lull the audience before the shock, or the classic Careful with that axe Eugene, a lovely pun as well. Maybe 'emotional Art' like vengeance is best served cold.
Of course cliché can be exploited – one of the most disturbing 'exhibits' I recently experienced was a maze made of corridors with doors every 4 feet. At first one thinks – 'oh how cliched' but as this continues the 'idea' slowly is overcome by unease at the possibility of the kind of thing that occurs in dreams. Or maybe a whisperer can be more unsettling than a scream... I could imagine a CD with whispering could be made which would be quite disturbing.