There is nice new interview in Noisextra, with CM von Hausswolff.
https://www.noisextra.com/2022/03/23/in-conversation-with-cm-von-hausswolff/
CMVH has been going for ages, and keeps himself busy. Album they talk about more can be listened here:
https://cmvonhausswolffreleases.bandcamp.com/album/nepal
What strikes me the most, is how this interview is probably the first in Noisextra history, where it clearly crosses over from NOISE to art. Sure, even the most recent are Lopez, DP, Lunde and such who are no less art. But, these have far more roots in tape-music/underground/mail-art and all sorts of DIY, while CMVH would be freelance curator at contemporary art & achitecture center, organizer of sound art events, being influenced for his art by 49th Biennale di Venezia type events rather than getting.. Atrax Morgue tapes from mailorder, heh heh.. This is by no means, less interesting, just seems like first time, Noisextra would be like such level sound art featured? Of course there are connections to noise there.
As one example:
QuoteI was approached by my old friend and Radium 226.05 colleague Ulrich Hillebrand, now director of Angered Theatre in Göteborg. He informed me that there was a new play in the process of being written by author and theorist Michael Azar called "Jag är en annan" (I is another) stemming form the famous letter written by Arthur Rimbaud in his youth. The play uses Rimbaud's life from being a young poet in Charleville ending with him being the trader in Harar, Ethiopia. Hillebrand asked me if I was willing to compose the music to this play. I accepted. I told Hillebrand that I needed to use material that had something to do with Rimbaud's life and as he had connections in Ethiopia and in the small city of Harar he said: why don't you go to Harar for 10 days and see what you can find?
So I went to Addis Ababa where a guy was waiting for me and drove me the 10 hours beautiful ride to Harar. I made recordings and looked for other useful material.
This information does not say any details, if there was some $$$ involved with this commission. I know nothing about that. It is possible man is there traveling like anyone else. The stories what I have heard about generous funding received by slightly more noble noise acts from more wealthy countries - for example Marhaug and money that norwegian state can spare for culture, puts experimental art into quite different place. These guys do it by themselves, but I do have a feeling there is some change in process when there are opportunities and financial possibilities that make it possible. If artistic creativity is enabled by flying around the world in neat locations, museums, galleries, and so on.
I suppose I didn't understand it wrong, but WCN interview with The Rita, Sam also mentioned Canadian art funding playing small role in enabling some foreign gigs? I would not think the funding or art grants would somehow corrupt their creativity. It could be indeed nice, if The Rita was handed enough funds to have full on noise ballet.
After incoherent message, the question is this:
-Have you got any grants or financial aid of some sort? For your work, for space you run, for gig you organized?
-Have you applied, but rejected?
-If you got something, has this funding enabled something what could not have happened without it?
-If you have never gotten anything, is there something you'd wish to make happen, but can't do because lack of resources?
-Do you have some stubborn idea that "underground" should not overlap with "state funded art"? Or that it would be great, if UG would brought into realm of museums and galleries?
Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. I like to tell, that I never got anything from anyone. It is true to extent, but not entirely. Back when I was 15, and publishing comic-books, local city employees told that I should apply to get some sort of art grant. We're talking about early 90's, so it was still matter of knowing where and how and doing paper work. She said that what I did, purely as DIY, was so advanced compared to what most other people were doing. Rather meaning that I had concrete proof of money being well spent if I got it. Well, I did get it. 1500mk, which is like 250 euro. Back then, it meant that I bought pile of paper, few pens and rest was printing new issue of quite crappy comic book. Connected to this handout, I had to take part in couple exhibitions, that sucked ass. On hindsight, I should have not applied, but back then, at that age, it was good money what I didn't have. It should have been used very differently, though.
As for noise or other UG stuff, or life in general, nothing ever applied. (Of course was briefly unemployed, collecting welfare money, but at my 20's I resigned from all those too)
Of course I appreciate the most the utmost total DIY, but there are occasions when I have played in places that probably have funding of some sorts. Or gigs that have gotten funding, and without that funding, things would no have happened in same way they did. Indirectly effecting what I do.
I have seen great artists brought from overseas to play for relatively small audiences. I do not mind if some sort of external funding made it possible. I would hope genre would be self-sustaining, yet if state or some institution forwards money to bring over noise, it is good to see someone is there to handle paperwork and make it happen and makes me wish there would be more.
This is most of all due seeing what all nonsense is funded. How lame exhibitions or sound projects happen, and one would think if some institution could spare few thousand euros to noise events, it could be... historical. Just like Sam describes in WCN The Rita interview about his feelings when some "sound artist" gets funding of 20K ...to make techno piece in gallery. To organize noise fest, where one could afford to lose 20K, it could be something to remember for decades.
QuoteDo you have some stubborn idea that "underground" should not overlap with "state funded art"?
Pretty much, YES ! And contrary to what i hear many artists / labels say that they want to make noise bigger [probably not their exact words, but my interpretation] , i have the stubborn idea that underground should stay underground. Is that of a selfish reason, to feel i like something special only for the few ? Hm, maybe, partially, cant deny it. But biggest reason is that where people come in masses things turn to shit, sooner than later. So it's more me being worried about, care, protect, and being conservative with these i love. It's not i exclude anyone. But i believe the right way is someone to find the genre, not the genre finds him. OK, noise never gonna be mainstream, but let's say you see for example Genocide Organ be invited to play in TV shows like pop-rock bands/singers, or at big arenas, with their live being advertized everywhere. How would you feel ? AKWARD ! I understand that's not the goal or what is ment by 'make noise bigger' , though i cant say i understand exactly what 'bigger' means ... How big ?
Regarding money : If you can take money, well, take them ! Dont be an 'idealistic idiot' . If it's difficult to go against your values think it like you fooled the enemy, haha. Take the money ! - Problem is when someone starts thinking what to not do -or do- in order to continue taking funds. Eventualy, if you have constant funding you will become dependent on them. It's natural. Few would be able to fuck-off funding in order to keep their artistic / human integrity and dignity, when a 'problem' arise. But constant funding is a long-term unlikely scenario when it comes noise. The realistic scenario may be : You have an opportunity to get an extra help / money. Take them, with no obligations. - That said i wouldnt call a 'sponsored-by' artist underground anymore. No problem though, if i still like what he does ...
This will be split starkly between European and USA members, as nothing like this really exists in USA, state funding for the arts is pratically nonexistent. I always thought it was ironic, spawning point of death metal scene in Scandinavia and so on in late 80s, created in government funded youth centers, without which these kids would not have had the opportunity to start their bands.
Quote from: chryptusrecords on March 24, 2022, 04:11:06 PM
nothing like this really exists in USA, state funding for the arts is pratically nonexistent.
Unless you are involved with a university (as student or faculty), maybe. But then you will definitely be in a different "scene," if that makes sense.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on March 24, 2022, 05:26:45 PM
student
you will still go into debt, especially in an arts program, even if you get access to grant opportunities.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 24, 2022, 09:00:31 AM
It could be indeed nice, if The Rita was handed enough funds to have full on noise ballet.
Shit I would like to experience that.
That being said, I don't believe in financed arts. Finance yourself and if you have the spark to do art you'll do it anyway. If not, and the art would otherwise not be made due to lack of grants, such output will probably lack spirit anyway.
Even so, if grants are up for grabs then by all means grab 'em. But they shouldn't be IMO.
I once spent a day as a temp working in the offices of the city of Helsinki art grants department. My job was to print the applications for money they had received that year, put them in folders and then place them in alphabetical order on this long table they had at the conference room. I quickly realized that the actual job would take a little over an hour at most, so I spent most of the day reading through the applications.
Almost without exception, the sums requested were absurdly high. For some musical events, concerts and such, I actually knew for a fact that I could have created the same thing for 25% of what was asked.
This inspired me to actually send in an application. I planned to bring in a couple of artists from Sweden and a few from elsewhere in Finland, created a realistic budget (venue, travel tickets, accommodation, soundman, etc) and ended up with what I thought was a very modest ask compared to the others.
The reply I eventually got was so stupendously idiotic and embarrassing that I actually cherish the memory of it to this day. It was written without capitalization or punctuation, with multiple typos. What it actually said was that city funding was reserved for "well known" people who have studied art or music. The combination of utter stupidity with elitism was such that I actually had to look up the person who had written the e-Mail on facebook. It turned out to be some boomer whose most recent posts were about how awesome the occupation of the Vanha student Union building had been in '68 (there had been an arriversary recently), written in a fake, "cool" youth slang. So much for that, then.
Haven't tried again. I've considered trying a crowdfunding campaign to get a video camera and a video projector + screen for Noise Space, but somehow a doubt that there's be enough interest. I'm pretty much resigned to paying for everything myself. Which is okay.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 24, 2022, 09:00:31 AM
Or that it would be great, if UG would brought into realm of museums and galleries?
Well yes and no. I do think the noise etc. UG scene has cultural and artistic relevance and value. As such I'm not opposed to whatever cultural artefacts that the scene produces being "curated" and placed in museums or galleries. But of course anything that is lifted out of its context and time and space becomes, well ... inert. This may be seem like a negative thing, but sometimes observing something against a neutral background can allow you to appreciate it in a new way.
I think general rule for application is, that you have to apply at least half, if not two thirds more than you need. If you need 5000 euro, you need to apply for 10K at least. At least that is what was told to me by others who do it. It is likely many institutions give you some money, but not all. So one got to pretend as if you need sum X, so when you get half, that'll cover entire thing.
I've been told story about art music fest in northern finland. Bringing over lead vocalist for orchestra, could be matter of tens of thousands of euros. Out of the huge budget, couple thousands was handed to electronic music, and they could manage entire line-up of international performers and have actually good audience for it, while the costly classic singers would get less interest. This kind of thing will not shift the approach. There is certain values for what art is funded and what is not.
Most of the time, underground music is self sustainable, or everybody are ready to lose a bit. Classical music, opera, ballet, museums, and so on, are purely depending on funding.
It is curious, that I think there is also different set of mentality in 2020, than there formerly was. When living in times when crowdfunding or requests for support is quite frequent, I am little cautious. Of course, it ain't the same as getting money from institutions.
I get idea of for example podcasts. Guys spending hours and hours of time and their money to do artists and listener favors. While possibly liking what they do, it may be still a bit different thing than spending that time on own art etc. I feel functional way to pay for such thing is good. That said, I have yet to even first time look into this patreon site.. I know it'll be some sort of yet another new account to create and... I have utmost passion for noise, but nearly irrational hate for logging in into yet another system or site.
I dislike when the demand for funding extends into projects where it really would not be needed. Certain types of artists who have fundraising just for sake of... maybe merely because it is possible. For example, I do not think releases should be generally bought because of support. There should be other reasons.
In some circles it is considered normal, that you will ask handouts for all things, and do it if someone pays. Recently listened some artists interview where he would tell the typical routine that he had dozens on projects that could be done.. and those that get funding, get done. If there is no funding, idea is rejected. While in old school underground, I don't think handouts were considered anything to admire, and you did what you needed to do.
(As example, needs of noise shows are quite low budget, unless you'd have to pay plane tickets and such. I think video projectors suitable for noise gigs, do not cost almost anything at 2nd hand market. 100e should get you good one. Most have possibility to buying small plug as addition to older cable, so you'll have lightning or mini usb in, to play videos from phone etc. I would not be surprised if some noise guys have the old projectors laying around, unused for years. You don't necessarily need big funding project, but ask around a bit, ask advice, check out what's out there, and of course 100e is a lot of money for some, but in theory, one day you'll have noise show where 10 guys paying tickets will pay it back... )
Don't forget the greatest grant resource we all have; Grant Richardson! Haha
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 25, 2022, 08:20:03 AM
I think general rule for application is, that you have to apply at least half, if not two thirds more than you need. If you need 5000 euro, you need to apply for 10K at least. At least that is what was told to me by others who do it. It is likely many institutions give you some money, but not all. So one got to pretend as if you need sum X, so when you get half, that'll cover entire thing.
That makes sense. Pretty obvious now that I think about it.
QuoteThat said, I have yet to even first time look into this patreon site.. I know it'll be some sort of yet another new account to create and... I have utmost passion for noise, but nearly irrational hate for logging in into yet another system or site.
And setting up an account and profile on Patreon would be just the beginning. Then you have spam everybody, everywhere, all the time, with requests to become "patrons". And then you get 5 people to sign up, each for 1€ a month. It's ridiculous.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 25, 2022, 08:20:03 AM
(As example, needs of noise shows are quite low budget, unless you'd have to pay plane tickets and such. I think video projectors suitable for noise gigs, do not cost almost anything at 2nd hand market. 100e should get you good one. Most have possibility to buying small plug as addition to older cable, so you'll have lightning or mini usb in, to play videos from phone etc. I would not be surprised if some noise guys have the old projectors laying around, unused for years. You don't necessarily need big funding project, but ask around a bit, ask advice, check out what's out there, and of course 100e is a lot of money for some, but in theory, one day you'll have noise show where 10 guys paying tickets will pay it back... )
This is true of course. For me it's not even as much about the money as about the principle of the thing. It may be naive, but for me it seems like if you want to attend an event, it goes without saying that you want to assist in some way in making it happen. Not everyone seems it this way, of course. I've even had some people who've come early get pissy when asked for help in moving some chairs and tables. Presumably these would be people who are used to attending different, more mainstream events, possibly with the public funding etc.
Too many things to quote so I try to ad lib this from the top of my head.
Yes, I went to art school only because all my applications got rejected before, and although "nothing changed" in art schools, it worked and I have lately received some small grants. They definitely have made it easier for me to survive and stay even more underground, because without it, my only income comes from selling some noise or art, and anyone with a half of a brain can quickly calculate what sort of a quality of life that is. It also takes more time out of actually making art trying to sell it to people who don't buy it anyway and it is just a waste of time. I need to live, but I don't need much, for example a grant intented for 3 months of work has kept me alive more or less 6 months now.
I am not allowed to work with my visa and and am not entitled to welfare from anywhere, so I mostly live from the kindness of other people and random projects that bring in some scraps. Of course it would be fucking grand if people just suddenly started buying all this shit I make and I wouldn't have a need to think "how to fund my work" which still is a full-time thing.
I think the "ask for more than you need" rule was true back in the days when there was money to throw around, I think nowadays it is probably easier to get some funding with a realistic application of what you need, because smaller amounts make it easier to give out more fundings for different projects which of course looks good for the organization dealing them out.
But the most stupid thing about the grants in my opinion has been that I never got them when I felt like I was doing something that would have actually benefited from it, like I was doing something that might have had some value for more than 10 people, then I got rejected and went on to do it without the budget anyway. Eventually when I look at the CV (as you have to have one for the applications) it is starting to look like a "professional" CV, while all of it has come out of my own DIY stuff and lonesome work.
Still, easily many hundreds of rejections from grants, galleries, book publishers, record labels of all sorts.... Only the Japanese people seem to "get this" without any sort of friction, for which I am forever grateful.
of course the grants were not given for the noise projects as is, but nobody can prevent me from doing music projects as a part of artistic practice.
I think grants in general and art grants are a wonderful thing.
We actually utilized such oppurtunities when we arranged noise concerts in Norway as partial funding for travel and salary fees for abroad noise artists. This way we where able to show bands like Fecalove, Bizarre Uproar, Arkhe, Shift, Trepaneringsritualen, Die Kombination, Cremation Lily, Jukka Siikala and others to a Norwegain audience.
Here, one may apply for grants nationally, via the county, commune. We received twice from the municipality of Oslo for self-organized events.
Personally, I am not interested in the politics surrounding the topic. I recognize grants as an opportunity and tool to realize thoughts and larger stage or art productions that might be economically difficult for a sole individual or a group of people. A grant is meant as a support - this is the basic premise - for an ongoing practice in art or music. The projects I was involved in were organized and executed in the same manner as self-funded events were. We applied for and received grants for partial funding. On no occasion were we asked or did alter any of the contents presented. In order to receive the funds, we had to file a formal report post event, and the funds where paid out.
I think I still have the concert support application for the BU, Arkhe, Shift and TxRxP event. If I can find it, I'd be willing to forward it to anyone considering to apply for support, who is reading Scandinavian languages. Text is written in Norwegian. If I cannot locate it, I can give advice on how to set up and write a support application.
For anyone wondering how to set up a grant application. Here is the set up I used for the concert evening with BU, Shift, Arkhe and TxRxP. It is some years back now, so I am sure it is possible to make improvements on it today.
I recommend to check out the options, if any, your city, municipality, county or country have for you. In could be event support, material support and more. In general, event support are easier to get than the latter. Then the demands for indivdual practice, CV and plans exceed.
Try to be as presice and short as possible. The people reading your applications are not interested in your life story or hearing any fairytale. They need the facts of who, when, where, what, etc. Stay grounded, stay focused. Try, writing short informative sentences. Spend your time researching actual cost, what needs to be done, and set up a proper application. Rush jobs usually do not get any support and in the end are a waste of time and effort. For some the idea might seem overwhelming, but in reality it is a very practical excersice.
If you are unsure of what is needed or demanded in an application it is possible to talk to the institution responsible. In most cases, they will tell you what they need of information in order to process an application. You can also ask about how they recommend setting an application up if you are a first time applicant. Some even have own forms you need to fill out. Do not be hesitant to explore. A question can in the worst case, only get you a 'no' answer.
Set up for concert application.
1
Project description
2
Title of project, what are you applying for.
3
application details, support mode.
Event location, address.
4
Applicator and responsible individuals:
Event organiser roles:
- Contact person
- Event director / responsible individual for economy and execution
- Treasurer
- Other roles: For instance, sound, light, transport, food, etc.
5
Application re support (complete or partial)
Synopsis of who is applying, the amount, how the event is organized and financed. «The final budget is adjusted in accord of income» is a good line to use as one do not know the fina lbudget midst in organzing event or funds.
Key numbers:
Total expenses: 0000
Grant application: 000
6
Synopsis
Short sum of event / exhibition. Where it will be, who is performing. If the event is free or visitors have to pay admission.
7
About the organiser
Short info about as it says above.
8
Project description
What is to be presented.
Intention with the project.
Expected visitors.
About the venue.
Opening hours.
Event marketing.
List if any project documentation in sound, image and video.
List if any related music or art releases in connection with the event or post event.
9
Event plan.
Short description and listing of how the actual event is executed on opening day.
10
About the artists.
Short artist bios of the exhibiting or performing artists.
11
Project execution plan.
Short , detailed description and plan. Describe how event is executed and organised in detail. Describe how artists are paid, etc.
Attachments:
12
CVs from organiser and performing artists
13
A
Budget
PS! Keep the budget realistic. Research actual cost and factor this, do not inflate or guess numbers.
B
List what the budget includes: Expenses, income and application sum.
C
State if budget is designed to go in zero or profit. For projects like this I recommend zero.
D
Finance plan:
Describe how. Most likely most events on this level is a combination effort of: Voluntary work, self-financing, maybe a bar or admission fee, and possible other support avenues.
List where you have applied for other grants.
E
Budget overview.
In the budget, in section 'income', I recommend to monetise the Voluntary work being done. So, if 4 people work 10 hours for free, that is a total of 40 work hours at an x value.
Total expenses:
Total income:
Application sum, where you are applying from:
Application sum, if any from other support foundations:
Result (if budget aimed to go in 0): 0.-
F
Detailed list of expenses with total summarisation.
G
Detailed list of income with total summarisation.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 24, 2022, 09:00:31 AM
-Do you have some stubborn idea that "underground" should not overlap with "state funded art"?
Some of us used to refer to stuff like Oren Ambarchi, Lucas Abela and Marco Fusinato as "business noise".
I don't really like the sounds that Ambarchi or Abela produces (while Fusinato is ok), I don't really consider any of those kind of artists to be active contributors to the harsh noise underground.
Art historically depended on wealthy patrons who took pride in employing artists.
In theory is a great idea but in practise there is a lot of compromise and dependency to that. You rely on those who have the means, you have to know the right people or to not provoke too much with what considered appropriate and fashionable. For example old school acts like Whitehouse, Non, Genocide Organ etc would never receive grants in the current cultural context.
Depending on others is never a good idea.
I applied once for a grand from the local authorities for a series of 7 noise performances together with a friend. Took me 30 minutes to fill in a simple form, asked my uncle to help set up a foundation as this was a requirement and then got 17.000 euros in my bank account. Afterwards had to send them a short report including al the receipts. Applied the following year as well but it got denied and in the following years these kind of grands slowly were abolished. Here's a clip of the final result; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ao_kd9jEbM
Also did 2 government sponsored tours overseas with bands I played in. Not a lot of money involved but it covered the plane tickets and the cost of renting a van. This kind of government funding for all kinds of cultural activities used to be pretty normal in Holland including underground music/art but these days only mainstream and professional bands qualify.
Not being an artist myself, but from a decade (96-06) of organizing concerts and other events, I can corroborate what Online Prowler wrote above. Scandinavian governments are indeed (or at least used to be) very generous with various forms of grants for supporting even marginal cultural expressions. As in Norway, here in Sweden it's possible to apply on state, regional, and municipal levels. Our organisation used to get the equivalent of 15,000 Euro annually in (non ear-marked) activity support. For special projects like one-off festivals there was possibility to apply for more. Most difficult is the paperwork for the first year, once you're recognized and inside the system, the wheels keep on turning.
Then there are other sources to tap is into. Wealthy geezers that set up foundations for donating to cultural ends. Embassies and their cultural affiliates (British Council, Goethe Institut, Alliance Français, etc). There's a lot out there if you care to look.
While we perhaps wouldn't have booked potentially controversial groups like Blood Axis or Bizarre Uproar, I feel we didn't compromise to any major extent. We had many of the top tier acts within noise, industrial, electronica, glitch, post-rock, you name it. Of course most of this could not have been done without the taxpayers' money.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 24, 2022, 09:00:31 AM
...these have far more roots in tape-music/underground/mail-art and all sorts of DIY, while CMVH would be freelance curator at contemporary art & achitecture center, organizer of sound art events, being influenced for his art by 49th Biennale di Venezia type events rather than getting.. Atrax Morgue tapes from mailorder, heh heh..
Well, CM von Hausswolff wasn't born an internationally acclaimed sound artist and curator. He too grit his teeth in the underground. He was organizing sub-sub-cultural events and happenings in the early-to-mid 80's. There are Gothenburgers here that can say more on this topic.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 24, 2022, 09:19:28 AM
Of course I appreciate the most the utmost total DIY, but there are occasions when I have played in places that probably have funding of some sorts. Or gigs that have gotten funding, and without that funding, things would no have happened in same way they did. Indirectly effecting what I do.
Yeah you and a couple of thousand other artists have played at Fylkingen, who wouldn't have sustained as an institution since 1933 were it not for public funding.
What about just borrowing money from the bank if you can't get free/state funded money?
Steve Underwood/As Loud As Possible #1: When you started taking Broken Flag as a serious proposition with the first vinyl release, did you get some funding? How did you support the label?
Gary Mundy: The only funding I ever got was bank loans. I used to borrow the money and then use the money from the sales of the records to pay it off, and then borrow more for the next one. There was very little profit on runs as short as I was doing, but that wasn't why I did the releases anyway.
And here's a short video of Bill Drummond talking about making records in the 1980s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8idBcQfm_0
I can appreciate things have changed an awful lot in 40 years time (only two weeks to get records pressed!) but I still see this as the most obvious route for people being serious. Write a business plan, wear a suit and put skin in the game.
the problem is only a problem when considering politics of the artist; grants and arts funding are obviously not inherently "good" or "bad" in themselves. it is bad when people are hypocritical. is it hypocritical of the early death metal bands in sweden to form in the government youth center? not really. is it hypocritical for right wing black metal bands to do the same? well...
Quote from: theotherjohn on April 30, 2022, 11:17:28 PM
What about just borrowing money from the bank if you can't get free/state funded money?
I think this is entirely different thing. Money you loan, is still your money, that you will have to pay back eventually. Free state money is different thing. I was recently listening interview of people who work in Finnish movie business. Back in the day, the grants you got from state, were like they are (as far as I know) in many european states. If your movies is success, you have to pay back the money. In Finland that system was changed that even in moment when movie is success, breaks even (haha..) or perhaps makes little profit, you do not have to pay back the funding.
I would think for a lot of art, this loan you must back back would be good alternative system. If you really have trust in what you do, but just shortage of funds, then short term no interests loan in favor of advancing art would be good. Problem might be that artists are generally not businessmen, so paying back something appears to be challenge when money that comes back in tiny fractions will get easily consumed.
In these days, my strong assumption is that borrowing money from bank here in Finland, is possible mostly for those who do not need to borrow money. After financial crisis, it was growingly difficult to get money from bank.