This isn't meant to be a discussion on which classical painting or ms paint approach you like with this music. We already know who likes what and this and that on this forum. This is meant to discuss where PE/Industrial is at now and where its going.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 10, 2022, 09:15:17 PM
When I look at what is happening with PE, I don't see almost any old school PE out there. I see nobody doing Whitehouse, nobody doing Ramleh, nobody doing SJ. Musically or sonically. If there is, I'd like to see some names dropped, or won't believe.
What I see is not genre what would be somehow wanting or willingly staying in past, as most of stuff sounds, at least in my years, that it sure as hell didn't sound like this in the 90's or early 00's. I feel that thing is rather that it sounds so much of 2020!
I feel there are artists who are now doing things in PE what has not been done. It is most of all having their own personality there, not necessarily showing tricks, but doing albums that could not be confused to almost that exists before.
Frankly thats great to hear people aren't trying to make the "classic" sound anymore. Honestly I'm out of the loop with most "young" modern PE/Industrial acts myself and would be interested in knowing whats up.
Which artists were you referring to Mikko? Id like to know, or if anyone has any good suggestions I'm game.
The most 2022 sounding PE guy hands down is Misery Engine. I say that with immense respect. Digital supremacy at its finest, unburdened by stereotypical themes, art, song lengths, approach etc.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 11, 2022, 04:09:54 AM
Frankly thats great to hear people aren't trying to make the "classic" sound anymore.
I think there is always space for the classic sound and people trying to recreate it as much as new sounds, ways of making and improving PE.
But hey! Maybe that's just me with my Extreme Metal background talking.
i agree that forced matching of styles is not good, as in doing a mash up of things that naturally don't go together for good reasons, but on the other hand just mindlessly emulating the past is just as boring. even bands that kept the industrial (and hardcore/metal too) tradition alive successfully did it with some kind of original take on top of the solid foundation, think about for example genocide organ. i love that "conservative" kind of thinking in preserving modern musical traditions, but you have to bring something to the tradition in my opinion, not just forming worship bands/projects. so in conclusion, very interesting thread, i am hoping to find some good recommendations and inspiration for myself. cheers.
I would also like to mention that I think what Kenny Sanderson is doing with Like Weeds is a great example of advancement in Industrial. Large electronic sounds that don't really mimic the past, and seem to have a very concise form to them. Still rooted in the primitiveness of slow moving, but for sure a big step forward in terms of the next phase/styles of Industrial.
It's difficult to get a sense of any particular overarching direction or momentum when so many people are operating in relative isolation; I don't sense the coherence to the scene that you get with the metal sub-genres where the ebb and flow of different movements is easier to notice. It seems like everyone operates in a bubble, more or less, where you can see a lot of development and nuance on a micro level that doesn't necessarily circulate to a wider scene.
At the moment I'm noticing the loss of some particularly idiosyncratic voices in industrial/PE like IFOTS and IRM, who may not have been guiding forward exactly but certainly pushed the envelope and, speaking for myself, expanded the idea of what was possible within this field. But then we have Himukalt popping up seemingly fully formed in the last few years with an incredible depth of individuality and sonic resourcefulness, so it's swings and roundabouts.
I guess what interests me at the moment as an artist/noisemaker/whatever is hybrid methods (i.e. not fixating on analogue or digital practices). I'm not really interested in genre fusion, like noise mixed with black metal, as that often seems clumsy to me, but drawing inspiration from outside the immediate confines of genre is never a bad thing. Following something like Mark Fisher's idea of "the slow cancellation of the future" where genre ideas and timelines just collapse and intermingle in entropy I'm not really sure what's next for this kind of music which would represent a real paradigm shift? As long as people are making great music and allowing their individuality to run riot, I hope that kind of growth can happen organically.
I think it is good to use non-noise examples of progress and regress, since in context of noise it can be so abstract that we barely know what other person means when he talks about fresh content or new advanced sound or composition, unless it is explained.
For some anything NEW is advancement. Even if it would not be new at all. Lets say "beats". Already 40 c. years ago there debate of why all new revolutionary industrial suddenly started to REGRESS into dance music. Pretty much all the big names of industrial. Other saw it as way to escape being trapped into sheer noise, while others felt it was no way progress and "modern", but regression into generic music. Entertainment, perhaps functional music void of higher artistic merit.
Now that a lot of things what are often called progress, is involving melody patterns, songy qualities, beats, cinematic effects, technological fetish for all things that are new in stock. Their newness tends to be temporary. Like think of moment when still now, some hail "glitch" as kind of new innovation (just as one example), while it is so dated that someone playing E-minor chord on guitar seems more innovative.
So this only leads to question wha IS the progress? Is it the development towards more advanced and improved condition, if noise or power electronics moved towards what basically is kind of same like the industrial music had. 1980 and anything is possible, few year forward and it's metal dance and fireworks pop songs, eh eh... Exaggrating a bit, but I guess anyone who followed industrial music of that era, knows what I am talking about.
When for example TESCO announced the infamous slogan BACK TO BASICS, I do not think for a second, that this call made, was call for regress and copycats to imitate what had been done. I think it was call to recognize the potential of genre, the moment when it was true innovative force, and revolutionizing the sound. This revolution was not merely genre itself being re-invented in every new release coming (that would be impossible), but genre as a whole, in opposition to what is "music" as generally understood.
Almost every time, when I see power electronics being "progressed", it is the progress towards conventions of music. Conventions of music production. Methods and ways of creating or existing that are side-by-side with music. Even more so pop culture (incl. Hip hop). I don't blame anyone in particular. I can easily admit that most of my works has been song oriented, very much pop hit length tracks, released in traditional rock album format. Just pointing the in many ways I see ton of ways to progress, what all lead not to pop music standards, but away from it. It all is probably closer to BACK TO BASICS call, since it can be seen that in many ways genre ain't progressing, but it's movement isn't for regressing from formerly better condition to really sucky direction. In such moment, there is no reason to stubborny go "forward". You do like in life in general. Couple steps backwards and then more steps forward. Acknowledging that not all steps are always good ones or towards improvement and progress. This is what I see back to basics. You see the flaws (also in your own work), and take step back, correct the path and proceed forward,
This process is what creates situation that progress is not linear, stable and guaranteed. Youth cultures generally were impatient, but I do not see noise as youth culture. Or almost any underground music, at this point. It would be another topic worth to start. But if one accepts that it was not, and especially is not anymore youth culture, 1, 2, 3, 5 stagnant years are no problem. You barely notice that someone was gone for half decade, when they return with new brilliant release. You don't even need to address fact that someone took 3-4 albums to find new direction and re-blossom.
One measure, for me, would be to look what extent the development follows failures found in mainstream culture. If I see industrial act, preoccupied in creating brand of itself. Or, like abandoning actual substance in favor of dealing with just the -self-... Again, this hip hop esque influence, where album is most of all face of guy, doing auto-fictional ramblings, yet what is more real about it, I can't see. In opposition of where creators life and persona is visible only between the lines, hardly ever directly. It seems more real, than reality-tv standard autofiction where noise or industrial deals most of all with petty and banal issues or needs. I think industrial / noise was so so far more advanced from that position.
I planned to write more detailed piece to SI website related to these matters, just in hopes of keep discussion going rather than flooding too long messages.
About bands who show progress in power electronics/industrial noise, I think my formerly mentioned "couple step backwards, then more steps forward" is the easy route to find the good projects that intentionally or not, are doing things that are creative, but recognizeable as part of genre. It is not desperate hunt for latest gadget that can produce "unheard sound", but personality that is audible as they are not here for nostagic copycat reasons, but something maybe else.
I'll post few suggestions later on. As currently out of Finland, typing this on phone, it ain't so easy to browse the suitable links and so on.
I think the best way to move forward is the same as it has always been: a willingness to stand your ground and do your own thing regardless of trends and other peoples' opinions combined with a willingness to put in the work, continue to learn and being honest with oneself with regard to quality. Just ask yourself this simple question: "would I find this any interesting/good if someone else had done it"? If the answer is no, then scrap it. "Advancement" can take many forms, but it usually comes from those who put in an effort and are not simply following what others are doing.
And just to end on a positive note. Industrial has been declared dead and stagnant many times before, but has always managed to stay alive and bounce back with new bands that, while keeping the essence of the genre, were able to move in new and exciting directions, so I'm not really worried, and I certainly don't see the scene as stagnant at the moment either.
I think there is a real "if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?" problem in the industrial/noise/PE underground at large.
There is virtually no critical consensus on PE/industrial given there is no critical environment, and so i don't really think anything is advancing! Dozens of incredible, unique records have been coming out over the past decade but it all just goes through the standard hit distro update -> get shouted out on the "now playing thread" -> shows up on instagram -> fades into oblivion due to the lack of any live performance over the last 2 years/virtually zero documentation/low utilization of forums for discussion. I don't think artists are speaking to one another in a way that they did even a few years ago. It's all silos and self promotion as people were forced to just remain in place for the past few years.
Even the more niche mainstream magazines (stuff like The Wire) can't seem to make heads or tails of "the genre"; it's still just always back to Dilloway and Wolf Eyes. If anything, stuff closer to ensemble free-jazz (Crazy Doberman, Wasteland Jazz Unit) is doing more to "advance" the world of noise at large than anything, even if it's just bringing more attention to the scene in a way that's palatable to some portion of the masses by incorporating novel instrumentation and melodic structures.
Personal speculation but I think if there's a moment where progression might become more visible it's going to be some kind of fusion of the current crop of trance/hardcore/rave techno coming out all over the US and PE/noise. You see this in Japan with artists like BlackPhone666 doing gabber/noise hybrid sets. While as Mikko pointed out this kind of echoes the last 20 years of noise dudes getting into techno -> starting to do beats -> oh no now it's all beats back to noise, I think there's fertile ground in the industrial/PE wasteland to try and capture visceral live energy greater than "staring down at my hands as I slowly turn nobs".
I still think there's plenty to be done with the basic elements of P.E. Crunchy oscillations, samples, junk loops, vocals, etc. A lot of people seem to find the staple P.E. sound to be derivative in some way, but I know I will never tire of it. The genre doesn't seem stagnant to me at all, plenty of good shit coming out. I think the comparison to extreme metal that someone made is a good one. Every time someone tries to "innovate" black metal, it turns to shit. It doesn't really need innovation, it just needs great execution of its basic elements. Same thing for P.E.. I'm not sure it needs "new sounds"? People don't make that requirement of other genres. The two Forza Albino full lengths are clear examples of vital, fresh sounding P.E. that doesn't feel the need to do anything "new". I think they will stand the test of time as well. There's something to be said for doing the same thing over and over again, getting slightly better each time, trying to perfect that one thing.
I often see situation which is a bit odd. Often it is someone saying they are not checking out what is happening, but claiming nothing happens. I recall when one old timer mentioned he is not following things, but trusts that if there would be something really good, he'd hear about it. That is sort of trust to old school. To idea that after someone was exposed to great things, they wrote all their friends about it:
"Check this guy out, here's flyers, that's one to grab" -type.
Last year I was going through my old paper letters from the 90's, tearing them up and throwing in garbage. Just can't save every piece of paper you ever got... I did stop that process after a while, and though maybe couple bags at the storage ain't much trouble. It was quite a revelation to be reminded how many people all over the world wrote me simply because of Thomas of Bawler tapes (ger) told them they should. It was all sorts of guys who are globally known noise veterans now, but back then, many of them probably like myself. Just sending out tapes, sending out letters, asking things, recommending things.
Or finding letter from Membrum Debile label, sending me letter before any of his releases had come from press, saying Donna of Artware told him he should check out Grunt and gave the address.
Fast forward to this moment. I have my doubts. Certainly there is information, but its quality is different. It is not like anyone would be so hungry, that you run to buy all things that are mentioned in junkmail you receive or things you see in feed. Utter paradox of abundance of information what is out there, but equally large opposite: silence of listener reactions and critical evaluation. Almost everybody I know, trust latter one more, and reject "check my bandcamp" emails in blink of an eye.
This leads that even people who are active within genre, are not hearing about bands, unless just buy them blindly themselves. Like mentioned by former posters, there is this lack of visible discussion, lack of some sort of accessible, somewhat permanent talk (interviews, reviews, gig reports, etc). It would be highly unlikely to "hear about it" at this moment. At least it is my impression. Forums are little help, and podcast name dropping may be too, but as we can hear, it seems surprisingly tough for people to drop 5 latest remarkable releases of recent years? It is almost mind boggling.
I have been wondering for example low visibility of big labels such as Tesco or Hospital productions. Apart from HOS-700 can of sand, and Merzbow/Prurient LP, I don't think I have read anyone, anywhere, comment single item, out of dozens and dozens that are coming out in constant stream? If OEC puts out something, or Malignant did... where they are acknowledged? Perhaps there is some talk of something that is really new, but likelyhood that this type of acknowledgement would reach beyond the core of noise collectors.
Lets say for example Satatuhatta label stuff, being talked and praised as its new label on the rise. But would this buzz break outside the core of active noise buyers? Perhaps very small scale. Certainly not getting into ears of guys who are not following actively.
So what I am saying, if pretty much nobody knows what is going on, most do not bother to follow, it is very hard to estimate what is really going on and what type of progress and advancement has been happening. If there is great new thing, one generally tends to not know about it instantly, but it may be recognized in few years.
So what was said, I dont necessary complain. Just acknowlege the changed climate and therefore can have different expectations:
It feels we can probably start evaluating period of 2015-2020 now, and 2022 is largely pure mystery as most of stuff remains unheard and never publicly discussed? Some now interesting things, may need a test of time.
Anyways, pushing things forward, improved, making things better than many others, things that one could consider worthy to check out. Here is some of my subjective picks. I must underline, not check out like 30 seconds and "uhmm.. I heard this before", but actually listen album so you hear album, not one small fragment.
IFOTS and IRM was mentioned as ones pushing forward the genre sound. If one appreciates such sound, I would guess HUMAN LARVAE is something to check out. Not all his sounds are revolutionary & unheard, but man is pushing this sound of well composed, well produced, richly textured approach pretty damn well. When a lot of heavy electronics gets criticized for "one finger on MS-20 and flanger on vocals" -type of remarks, Human Larvae is far more. It is firmly in tradition of genre, yet also hardly piling up cliches. Artwork, lyrics, all has dirt, but they are not really obscene. Every album seems like pushing things to better. He isnt victim of template either, but on tapes he'll be more flexible to try out other ideas and albums display the highest song oriented composed "heavy electronics".
Kovana have got noticed more in recent times, thanks to some releases on Freak Animal that got wider circulation. They didn't start project in attempt to leech into old scene, but started to arrange their own gigs, own private gigs for crowd they knew. Putting out own tapes, spreading them around the people they are in touch. Style would not be strictly following any particular. You could hear they must be younger generation who gets first exposed to things like Puce Mary and Prurient. Which is the case here. But background is also different, so themes of songs, aesthetics, they are not the PE/noise standard, but all sorts of oddities. Musically from sheer noise to rhythmic pieces, sometimes closer to Finn filthy sound, sometimes turntablism, odd digital noise. It is a fresh blow, in a sense, old school of "lets try out stuff", instead or firmly fixed and aesthetically strictly planned stuff that is very popular these days. Sometimes I think of Club Moral, sometimes Puce Mary, sometimes Bizarre Uproar, sometimes Posh Isolation feel to it, but when you got the Kovana material in your hand, I'd be surprised if someone was like "not again stuff like this!". Project keeps changing all the time, and songs are very diverse, not all gold, but that is exactly the good progression. Boldness, unpredictability, and the crazy back in noise. Not over produced "brand".
Decondition is not newbie. He has been around for 15 years at least. I guess there was hiatus for a while. He has been busy for years now, and while CD on Freak Animal is certainly good, I released it for very specific reasons. It is not really accurately displaying what project is about, just showing one very restricted approach that is anomaly in his discography. I am quite sure many would actually like his other material more. I'll be probably putting out more, as that what it probably takes before other labels start noticing, heh..
Guys who like the sharp electric feel of Eleczema, Cloama, perhaps even Strom.ec, and this cleaner Prurient, Damien Duprovnik... perhaps IFOTS is also obvious. "Twilight of self Illusion" and track Death Comes reeks of IFOTS type of approach.
No filth, no analogue juiciness, but kind of icy cold production that can be heard on mentioned projects. Like Human Larvae, there might not be new utterly unheard patches and modulations, but pushing "PE" towards sound that has more sonically almost Mika Vainio type vibes as opposed to nasty PE.
He has bunch of stuff at bandcamp that doesn't exists in physical form. I would think someone would offer the man at least tape deals!
That said, he has done vastly better stuff that the ones that appear on bandcamp. Not all stuff at bandcamp is good. There is a lot of material, and some I have rejected, some approved for the future!
Contortus ain't exactly new name either, and also one may ask what's the point of shamelessly self promoting all this stuff you put out? Well, because I put it out for exactly same reason as I want to talk about it. I ain't responsible for much else than recognizing exceptional quality and therefore felt someone got to expose world to these works. Most these guys have or will have releases elsewhere.
Contortus has so much contradiction and unexpected qualities. Totally radical legit sociopaths, yet talented artists. Visually gifted (not often showing in their visual art, but clearly in composition of sound), = sonically have same talent in composition on works. It becomes clear that they are not here to just sound raw and nasty, but always finding good combinations of acoustic elements, electronics/synths, beyond generic buzz, actually having clear vision/taste. Not giving you any lessons of new tech, but there is nothing vintage about it. Really neat dynamics, innovative sounds, always good sound, stylish abstract textures on covers, but then lyrically it is just as blunt and unpleasant as vilest contemporary PE can be. I could assume that its example that due sheer musical merits, people would listen to this even if being turned off by their attitude. It shows that the brutal and antihuman content is not synonymous to blunt and one dimensional racket, but open for pushing each track to be nee ideas. It is in a way like Ultra. Not sonically, not compositionally, but putting together perversion and violence in sonically almost elegant form, as opposed of pure dirt and chaos.
Neither of guys are youngsters. They started noise fairly late, after years of visual arts, hardcore, black metal, etc.
Aprapat is probably important mostly in Finnish context, but it is great in global perspective too. I think pushing things forward, doesn't need to be necessarily about re-inventing entire genre, but also sometimes the expression grows collectively from the example and push forward. In this case, in short time, I would say Aprapat ain't like any other Finn noise, even if it has a lot of same things. Aesthetics are different, it has very firm and refined taste how the timbre, the color of sound must be. It most definitely seems to be setting bar higher what harsh noise should be, and shows how just swinging piece of chain to aluminium scrap ain't going to make you stand out. You got to know the craftmanship and have a taste, preferably personality. Sure, it is harsh noise, tape loops, scrap metal, dust and rust and creaking and rumbling, but if you are harsh head, you can easily spot why after Keränen, Umpio and Vanhala, this guy sets the standard into next level, without being anything like two formerly mentioned.
Moozzhead, he is the old gentleman, I posted while ago appreciation topic with zero reactions, haha. For me, this is like re-vitalization of pedal noise genre. Often it is just little shakerbox and chain of pedals into analogue 4-tracker. What's new in it? I would say it is his taste. Man is such a harsh noise hedonist, who has like 30 years of die-hard collecting and constantly refining of his collection, getting rid of crap, half-good and keeping and praising the masterpieces and buying new promising things for evaluation and appreciation. From this kind of set of mind, it seems only natural that one knows his noise. You know when it hits the spot, and when its better than just about every noise tape you buy, and you slay it with better own noise. What is the new in it? For me it seems like so many noise fans keep telling they have no time, no interest keep checking out things. Moozzhead seems to know what is out there, and how to make it better. The process of "this is good... but lets make it better!" gets you to another level compared to "lets make havoc!".. many times you hear guys saying they never listen their own works, and I get it... but also... don't. Moozzhead is the type of noise that needs to be so good he prefers it over other noise. Thats my impression.
Totenslaut - all what he does, is not gold, but a lot of it is. There one upcoming item I heard in advance. Perhaps 10" vinyl or something. It had the kind of Mego computer noise approach, combined with gutter filth. The old trick of opening data files as audio, and some of the Mego recording artists did innovations already decades ago. I generally do not like most of "computer noise", but I acknowledge that some of these methods can not be done in any other way. It is purely unique sound that did not exist way back. Totenslaut did not do just that, but just like I have said about Kartio who did complex modular synth patching, but amplifier and modified the sound quality into charming rusty harsh-head-audiophile quality, Totenslaut here is not just data files opened and published, but recycled into tape or whatever neat treatment there is, what adds that extra something, making it something more than the "digital broken file music".
When I heard his recording, that was later published by FA as cd, I was blown away. I had absolutely never heard the blend of stuff, that was like most ruthless Ramirez harsh noise combined with "lonely-bedroom-misanthrope" approach martial industrial. No Von Thronstahl, no Triarii, no Karjalan Sissit. More like early hand made Blood Axis and Naos. With grim and fierce quality of sound, its innovation is most of all blending unlikely genres together with pure success and in times when pretty much all matrial music sounds like Terminator soundtrack, it takes it back into dark and alchemic, not like teflon and movie soundtrack type feel. Brutality of noise is totally unlike Moozzhead or Aprapat, but I am not sure even those guys could make noise in -this- way. It is so simple and primitive.
H.Ö.H. could be described as very old school, but it is hard to say is it old school, or kind of low-tech apocalyptic future? What is so cool with it, that most of noise and industrial, I know pretty much right away how it is made. I may not know model of each pedal, synth or eurorack unit, but overall there is pretty good idea how its made. With HÖH, it is often situation that I know there is like no tech, almost at all. Tape loops, sure, but.. how? What? Why? Even who the hell is this guy really? It is enigmatic and stands are one of the totally unique projects of current moment over here, but also globally can't name many. Sure I understand that the ultra primitivism is not the "pushing forward" what some people look for, but it sure is pushing it forward. Just not in sense of running after latest gear, but pushing into almost diametrically opposite way of what may be described as noise regressed into professionally manufactured gear -fetish. Taking it back into pure experiment of things not even meant for making music in first place.
Why not much international mentioned? Well, there are hundreds of other guys who should be well qualified to start dropping names and tell why those artists feel like pushing things further, not imitations, not nostalgia,.. all these who I mentioned have also quality of GETTING BETTER all the time. That is not quality that can be found from stagnant and lazy projects. There is clear hunger for advancing and progressing in what they do - in their own terms.
I must stress all mentioned are still what one could file under GENRE MUSIC. If one seeks something totally different, combinations of PE & other music styles, stuff that no longer resembles power electronics at all, then that's in my opinion not really discussion of advancing PE, but there is one topic about "noise elements in other music styles".
Oh, and one more!
I told these guys that when they get labels writing, don't make shitty choices (its better than pretty much anything in this type of approach, so I would be surprised if they would not get offers). Its too good stuff to come out and disappear. I am thinking of Strom.ec, some Nordvargr, perhaps little TPR, some GO, with occult ritualistic power electronics industrial. Very musical, very technological, but each song different, with just handful of songs, what will be the full sound of project remains yet to be seen. It is already as it is pushing the most technologically advanced and hi-tech/mechanical PE in Finland since Cloama/Strom.ec, I'd be confident to claim. If I compare this with dozens and dozens of dark industrial/dark power electronics, I feel they have something else going on there...
https://ul-th-nekrolatria.bandcamp.com/releases
The issue of the lack of feedback and critical scrutiny is a pretty interesting one. Speaking for myself I've never really had much idea of whether the music I've been putting out is reaching people or not. I know that most of all in making industrial/PE both our audience and our critics are mostly ourselves, operating in a silo. But then, as you say, the opportunities for seeking and receiving feedback are negligible right now. Somewhere along the way the capacity of the scene to self-document seems to have shrivelled as both paper and online outlets have dropped off the map - three just off the top of my head being Heathen Harvest, Terror, and As Loud As Possible (not to mention the Reviews section of Special Interests for that matter!). I'm trying to enjoy and support the likes of Noise Receptor and Night Science as much as possible while they're still here.
I've recently put out a couple of releases straight to Bandcamp because while I was considering getting some tapes made, I couldn't imagine what size of run would be worthwhile. I might still put them out physically if the interest turns out to be there, but I don't have a better method of fishing for that just now. The material can be available at the click of the button but if there's nowhere for it to be seen, then it's rendered nearly invisible.
Gonna throw in my 2 cents and mention a US act that definitely doesn't get enough love: Paul Kerin of Fieldwork label and his various incarnations. He is 100% not "unknown" but since he does his own thing and isn't largely in plain view he gets overlooked. Good example of what Mikko was saying about taking a step back and getting back to basics. The sound is ALWAYS there for me no matter if it is pushing boundaries, it is always advancing. Industrialized PE done right. And the art. The art is always fitting.
I will always firmly exclaim that noise and PE is much much more than audio. Presentation is extremely important for "advancement" and that is precisely why bandcamp stuff doesn't get touted. It takes the soul out of it. It is different than music, so it should be treated different also.
You can further the game by simply changing ideas and approach rather than trying to reinvent the sound.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2022, 10:21:31 PM
[...] Youth cultures generally were impatient, but I do not see noise as youth culture. Or almost any underground music, at this point. It would be another topic worth to start. But if one accepts that it was not, and especially is not anymore youth culture, 1, 2, 3, 5 stagnant years are no problem. You barely notice that someone was gone for half decade, when they return with new brilliant release. You don't even need to address fact that someone took 3-4 albums to find new direction and re-blossom.
This is the key thing. What happens when radical forms created by youth become ossified and acceptable? Whether this is black metal, gangster rap or techno (which all emerged simultaneously), the process is the same. After enough time, it goes from radical reaction to acceptable norm. The "style" is established. Do we abandon the styles because they aren't "youthful" anymore? Clearly not. Mayhem still tour, for better or worse. This is a historical, multi-generational development that goes beyond the choices of individual artists.
But the paradox sits around unspoken; if we're not doing this as a radical rejection of previous forms, if the form stands on its own now, what is it "for?" what ARE we doing it for? this is the real "progress." coming up with reasons to keep doing it. many people keep doing it because they like the old style, or they feel the compelling nostalgia of that early-days rebellion, but this impulse will always be thwarted, because the form doesn't work like that anymore.
Quote from: Eigen Bast on June 12, 2022, 02:53:52 AM
Even the more niche mainstream magazines (stuff like The Wire) can't seem to make heads or tails of "the genre"; it's still just always back to Dilloway and Wolf Eyes. If anything, stuff closer to ensemble free-jazz (Crazy Doberman, Wasteland Jazz Unit) is doing more to "advance" the world of noise at large than anything, even if it's just bringing more attention to the scene in a way that's palatable to some portion of the masses by incorporating novel instrumentation and melodic structures.
Few years ago when Wire journalist felt like new Cloama album was pushing into interesting territories with sound and wanted to write review of it, I sent physical copy upon request. After writing was done, review submitted, editor told review is not going to be published as there is
potentially problematic connections. Not that there was anything wrong with Cloama. In such case, I would assume, most of industrial/pe and even harsh noise can't be on Wire. There is always something
potentially problematic lurking few clicks away.
Quote from: chryptusrecords on June 20, 2022, 07:32:13 PM
What happens when radical forms created by youth become ossified and acceptable? Whether this is black metal, gangster rap or techno (which all emerged simultaneously), the process is the same.
History of contemporary youth cultures is quite new, since this type of youth cultures barely existed... some argue, before 1955 or so. Sure jazz and that type, but not sure can it be rated predominantly youth culture? Many times it feels, the youth is consequence of who had free time and cultural acceptance to do certain things. More we go back, the shorter the period of "youth" was before dragged into "adult life". A lot of former youth cultures, you see the bands operated pretty much exactly in period before getting "real job" and family. In our age, difference is that already most have parents who grew up into the "youth culture". And even bigger difference that the free time, resources and creativity are not exclusively qualities of
youth and also the real job or family is not necessarily goals nor mandatory evils for a lot of people.
In noise we have endless examples of that noise blossomed in time when some of artists were young, but for a lot of relevant artists it wasn't like punk or hc or metal, where teenagers made couple good albums and quit (or continued too long and often turned lame). In noise, you got plenty of examples of artist who started... and never stopped. Examples of artists who even got better, during 30+ years non-stop activity. I don't think noise is "youth culture", for a lot of reasons, and therefore should not be treated as such.
I have been thinking a little more about this topic. I tink the questions, aside from the talk of reception, are: what do we mean by advancement, is it necessarily the same as innovation, and what does innovation mean in this context?
It seems like everything is a kind of grave robbery these days. Some new take on already established approaches and sounds. This is probably because we have endless acces to music history and can listen to all those records that were not available to most people before. Then again, wasn't it always like this, people took something and rearranged it into something else? Take TG, f.ex. They are heralded as true innovators, creators of industrial as a genre. But didn't they just take '60s psychedelia and mix it with classical avant garde, some '50s-'60s beatnik poetry/counter culture and fuse that with the punk approach of their own time? Sure, the mixture was (or felt?) new, but the elements were essentially already available cultural templates. Same thing with the occult dabblings that followed.
So what is the difference between TG and bands of today who mix already existing sounds/approaches/aesthetics into something that is (or feels like) their own blend? To me it seems true innovation never existed, just small ajustments to already existing sounds. Free jazz was not an innovation, f.ex., but a rearrangement of jazz standards, and industrial was also not an innovation, just another rearrangement of - well - sounds and cultural "stuff". So the way forward is then simply new artists who create more rearrangements and ajustments? Sounds like a boring vison, perhaps, but I think that is how music has always evolved historically...
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but aren't many of you essentially saying innovation and advancement take a back seat to quality? I know I'm not convinced that innovation and advancement are all that important in comparison to quality. The work is going to stand if it is good, regardless. Now, HONOR_IS_KING! is in a little bit of a pickle because he wants to feed his family and prepare for retirement with his music. I say that with no pretext. It does, however, dictate that he has to do something different in order to achieve those goals. The best of the greatest of the best haven't been able to make a living and prepare for retirement with bona fide classic work. There's no other option than to find a new style or a new something else. We know it cannot be achieved with simply great work. He's going to have to get lucky and stumble upon the lottery winning ticket. That isn't to undermine his effort or artistic abilities, either. Again, no pretext. Not only is he going to have to innovate, but then all the other X, Y, and Zs are going to have to fall into mystical and lucky alignment, because that's how it works. That's how it always worked. It doesn't matter what discipline or product is in question. You gotta have the stuff, but then you have to have the world forces lining up to take it all out of the basement and into "Hotel California" number of ears.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 23, 2022, 11:09:22 PM
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but aren't many of you essentially saying innovation and advancement take a back seat to quality? I know I'm not convinced that innovation and advancement are all that important in comparison to quality. The work is going to stand if it is good, regardless. Now, HONOR_IS_KING! is in a little bit of a pickle because he wants to feed his family and prepare for retirement with his music. I say that with no pretext. It does, however, dictate that he has to do something different in order to achieve those goals. The best of the greatest of the best haven't been able to make a living and prepare for retirement with bona fide classic work. There's no other option than to find a new style or a new something else. We know it cannot be achieved with simply great work. He's going to have to get lucky and stumble upon the lottery winning ticket. That isn't to undermine his effort or artistic abilities, either. Again, no pretext. Not only is he going to have to innovate, but then all the other X, Y, and Zs are going to have to fall into mystical and lucky alignment, because that's how it works. That's how it always worked. It doesn't matter what discipline or product is in question. You gotta have the stuff, but then you have to have the world forces lining up to take it all out of the basement and into "Hotel California" number of ears.
I would also agree that quality is way more important than innovation. Of course, innovation should be acknowledged and many will say it's necessary, but I would choose something GOOD over something innovative any day of the week. I just came about a comment on Snuff which someone has posted on Discogs, attacking the band for sounding "just like Whitehouse and Ramleh". Despite the fact that that isnt entirely true, my response would still be... so what? It's not like we are being drowned in amazing temporary PE, so why criticise the good stuff for supposed lack of innovation?
My personal take on advancement is probably just "getting better" and "appreciating and / or creating something good". Innovation isnt irrelevant, but I have often had the impression that it often felt a bit forced.
Industrial/Noise/PE are doomed to follow the fate of all avant-garde art after some historical changes have occurred after the 90's and especially after the internet.
as J.Baudrillard have written:
"He claims that art, for instance, has penetrated all spheres of existence, whereby the dreams of the artistic avant-garde for art to inform life has been realized. Yet, in Baudrillard's vision, with the realization of art in everyday life, art itself as a separate and transcendent phenomenon has disappeared.
Baudrillard calls this situation "transaesthetics" which he relates to similar phenomena of "transpolitics," "transsexuality," and "transeconomics," in which everything becomes political, sexual, and economic, so that these domains, like art, lose their specificity, their boundaries, and their distinctness. The result is a confused condition where there are no more criteria of value, of judgement, or of taste, and the function of the normative thus collapses in a morass of indifference and inertia. And so, although Baudrillard sees art proliferating everywhere, and writes in The Transparency of Evil that "talk about Art is increasing even more rapidly" , the power of art — of art as adventure, art as negation of reality, art as redeeming illusion, art as another dimension and so on — has disappeared. Art is everywhere but there "are no more fundamental rules" to differentiate art from other objects and "no more criteria of judgement or of pleasure" . For Baudrillard, contemporary individuals are indifferent toward taste and manifest only distaste: "tastes are determinate no longer"
What he writes above applies perfectly to the industrial. I remember getting thrilled by noise artwork and fascination with hardcore porn aesthetics (Merzbow art etc and sexorama compilations), now hardcore porn is everywhere.
The experiments of Genesis P.Orridge with gender are almost mainstream and in academia these days.
The exploration of visceral masculine urges in Whitehouse, SJ, Ultra are almost picked up by the manosphere.
The death and carnage from various disparage realities of the world that Genocide Organ brought over (wars, murders etc) are all over the web.
Is no longer about grounding the westerners and their delusional lifestyle about what most of the world outside the west is about or how western world used to be in the past.
If you read interviews by Coil, Vivenza etc they all believed into some grand narrative "enriching the lives of future generations with their music" "taking futurism to the next level" etc
The old timers believed into some grand narrative where their art is posited either against or parallel to the mainstream narrative. So what is the narrative the modern artists in the scene are telling to themselves for keep doing what they are doing?
I tried to address this meaninglessness and indifference with my release "Manifold Decomposition" LP.
I resisted for 10 years releasing any material I was working on.
Instead I only found a semblance of meaning in sound fetishism and destroying/altering my previous material,
processing and re-iterating the sounds to absurdity until I got fed up and released it.
Quote from: Thermophile on August 07, 2022, 02:01:50 PM
Industrial/Noise/PE are doomed to follow the fate of all avant-garde art after some historical changes have occurred after the 90's and especially after the internet.
as J.Baudrillard have written:
"He claims that art, for instance, has penetrated all spheres of existence, whereby the dreams of the artistic avant-garde for art to inform life has been realized. Yet, in Baudrillard's vision, with the realization of art in everyday life, art itself as a separate and transcendent phenomenon has disappeared.
Baudrillard calls this situation "transaesthetics" which he relates to similar phenomena of "transpolitics," "transsexuality," and "transeconomics," in which everything becomes political, sexual, and economic, so that these domains, like art, lose their specificity, their boundaries, and their distinctness. The result is a confused condition where there are no more criteria of value, of judgement, or of taste, and the function of the normative thus collapses in a morass of indifference and inertia. And so, although Baudrillard sees art proliferating everywhere, and writes in The Transparency of Evil that "talk about Art is increasing even more rapidly" , the power of art — of art as adventure, art as negation of reality, art as redeeming illusion, art as another dimension and so on — has disappeared. Art is everywhere but there "are no more fundamental rules" to differentiate art from other objects and "no more criteria of judgement or of pleasure" . For Baudrillard, contemporary individuals are indifferent toward taste and manifest only distaste: "tastes are determinate no longer"
What he writes above applies perfectly to the industrial. I remember getting thrilled by noise artwork and fascination with hardcore porn aesthetics (Merzbow art etc and sexorama compilations), now hardcore porn is everywhere.
The experiments of Genesis P.Orridge with gender are almost mainstream and in academia these days.
The exploration of visceral masculine urges in Whitehouse, SJ, Ultra are almost picked up by the manosphere.
The death and carnage from various disparage realities of the world that Genocide Organ brought over (wars, murders etc) are all over the web.
Is no longer about grounding the westerners and their delusional lifestyle about what most of the world outside the west is about or how western world used to be in the past.
If you read interviews by Coil, Vivenza etc they all believed into some grand narrative "enriching the lives of future generations with their music" "taking futurism to the next level" etc
The old timers believed into some grand narrative where their art is posited either against or parallel to the mainstream narrative. So what is the narrative the modern artists in the scene are telling to themselves for keep doing what they are doing?
I tried to address this meaninglessness and indifference with my release "Manifold Decomposition" LP.
I resisted for 10 years releasing any material I was working on.
Instead I only found a semblance of meaning in sound fetishism and destroying/altering my previous material,
processing and re-iterating the sounds to absurdity until I got fed up and released it.
Are we basically delusional, then, when we're creating industrial (not to be confused with art, imo...) using already available templates and formulas simply because we like it and want more of it and think it's still worth doing and that new sounds and aesthetics can arise from utilizing the same techniques and topics as the "old timers"? And wasn't aetshetics always meaningless, anyway, when it comes down to it? I think the industrial approach actually deals with that meaninglessness pretty directly in the re-uses of sounds, ideas, images etc.
Quote from: Phenol on August 07, 2022, 02:19:03 PM
Quote from: Thermophile on August 07, 2022, 02:01:50 PM
Industrial/Noise/PE are doomed to follow the fate of all avant-garde art after some historical changes have occurred after the 90's and especially after the internet.
as J.Baudrillard have written:
"He claims that art, for instance, has penetrated all spheres of existence, whereby the dreams of the artistic avant-garde for art to inform life has been realized. Yet, in Baudrillard's vision, with the realization of art in everyday life, art itself as a separate and transcendent phenomenon has disappeared.
Baudrillard calls this situation "transaesthetics" which he relates to similar phenomena of "transpolitics," "transsexuality," and "transeconomics," in which everything becomes political, sexual, and economic, so that these domains, like art, lose their specificity, their boundaries, and their distinctness. The result is a confused condition where there are no more criteria of value, of judgement, or of taste, and the function of the normative thus collapses in a morass of indifference and inertia. And so, although Baudrillard sees art proliferating everywhere, and writes in The Transparency of Evil that "talk about Art is increasing even more rapidly" , the power of art — of art as adventure, art as negation of reality, art as redeeming illusion, art as another dimension and so on — has disappeared. Art is everywhere but there "are no more fundamental rules" to differentiate art from other objects and "no more criteria of judgement or of pleasure" . For Baudrillard, contemporary individuals are indifferent toward taste and manifest only distaste: "tastes are determinate no longer"
What he writes above applies perfectly to the industrial. I remember getting thrilled by noise artwork and fascination with hardcore porn aesthetics (Merzbow art etc and sexorama compilations), now hardcore porn is everywhere.
The experiments of Genesis P.Orridge with gender are almost mainstream and in academia these days.
The exploration of visceral masculine urges in Whitehouse, SJ, Ultra are almost picked up by the manosphere.
The death and carnage from various disparage realities of the world that Genocide Organ brought over (wars, murders etc) are all over the web.
Is no longer about grounding the westerners and their delusional lifestyle about what most of the world outside the west is about or how western world used to be in the past.
If you read interviews by Coil, Vivenza etc they all believed into some grand narrative "enriching the lives of future generations with their music" "taking futurism to the next level" etc
The old timers believed into some grand narrative where their art is posited either against or parallel to the mainstream narrative. So what is the narrative the modern artists in the scene are telling to themselves for keep doing what they are doing?
I tried to address this meaninglessness and indifference with my release "Manifold Decomposition" LP.
I resisted for 10 years releasing any material I was working on.
Instead I only found a semblance of meaning in sound fetishism and destroying/altering my previous material,
processing and re-iterating the sounds to absurdity until I got fed up and released it.
Are we basically delusional, then, when we're creating industrial (not to be confused with art, imo...) using already available templates and formulas simply because we like it and want more of it and think it's still worth doing and that new sounds and aesthetics can arise from utilizing the same techniques and topics as the "old timers"?
Solely going off of what was said above, I do not think it would be delusional if you do it while keeping what you have said in mind. If you do it "simply because we like it and want more of it," then there is no reason that it cannot, should not, etc. be done in a way that is, for lack of better words, philosophically self-consistent. However, whether it is possible for industrial and noise music to be genuinely transgressive or transformative in the way espoused by the early pioneers and representatives, I doubt in the contemporary context.
Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now. It's easy (in the US, at least) to
seem shocking or "counter-cultural" by simply opposing one side of the political spectrum, but that would seem to just embroil you in the cultural wars that are now central to so many areas of culture. Whatever the answer is, I think it needs to be individualized.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on August 07, 2022, 06:53:16 PM
Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.
to me this is the crux of the situation. if a genre founded on transgression is no longer transgressive, what really is it? how does one advance a genre that many now consider a meme?
i often joke with my band mates that we are simply the new form of a led zeppelin cover band in a smokey bar. we are simply playing the sounds you want to hear.
Quote from: Harvest on August 08, 2022, 01:50:49 AM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on August 07, 2022, 06:53:16 PM
Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.
to me this is the crux of the situation. if a genre founded on transgression is no longer transgressive, what really is it? how does one advance a genre that many now consider a meme?
i often joke with my band mates that we are simply the new form of a led zeppelin cover band in a smokey bar. we are simply playing the sounds you want to hear.
I know it has been said before (and by people who have phrased/considered it more delicately than me), but a lot of the problem has to come from paying too much heed to what others (i.e. people from outside the subculture) "consider" industrial to be.
If I remember my simplified history correctly, couldn't it be said that power electronics was born out of Whitehouse's rejection of the social function that Throbbing Gristle ascribed to their use of transgressive subject matter?
Quote from: Harvest on August 08, 2022, 01:50:49 AM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on August 07, 2022, 06:53:16 PM
Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.
to me this is the crux of the situation. if a genre founded on transgression is no longer transgressive, what really is it? how does one advance a genre that many now consider a meme?
i often joke with my band mates that we are simply the new form of a led zeppelin cover band in a smokey bar. we are simply playing the sounds you want to hear.
Which subjects in PE are no longer transgressive? From wikipedia: "Transgressive art is art that aims to outrage or violate basic morals and sensibilities". I would say you can tick the box "violate basic morals and sensibilities" with most normal people when it comes to any PE. Transgression is there even if there's no ongoing public outrage 24/7. Even if the audience is not shocked, they can still find the music and visuals to be transgressive in a good way.
I find most PE to be transgressive for myself and it does not mean I am shocked or I do not like it. It's the transgressive quality of the music that makes me listen to PE. It's pure fucking transgressive filth most of the time and it has a cathartic and therapeutic effect because of that.
There is tremendous amount of power in PE as an art. And by power I mean that people are willing to voice their opinion that this shouldn't exist or this should be censored, this should not be allowed there etc. There was a huge discussion in a finnish experimental music facebook group with thousands of people (Mikko talked about this somewhere in the forums also), because people felt that ANY act associated with Freak Animals should not be allowed posted in the group, because it did not fit their worldview. People were leaving the group left and right and voicing strongly their opinions against and for.
My point being here is that you do not need to show much to people outside PE culture and you get an outrage. There are no public outrages, because the acts that would cause the outrage are working so underground and just focusing on the art. If they wanted more outrage it would be very easy. But most PE acts probably enjoy making and presenting the transgressive art to the people who are interested in it, rather than shocking the public. For example Bizarre uproar would cause a strong public backlash almost certainly to a more mainstream venue and the bands performing with it if they were non-PE. Filth and Violence label is (as far as I know) as underground as possible because there was strong opposition from the leftist/anarchist circles in Finland and sort of public outlash.
This is pretty rambling by me, but my point being is that if you count transgressive as something that causes public outrage and shock I am 100 percent sure you can cause that if you just reveal some of the filth to the mainstream audience in a form or another. Most people just don't enjoy being targeted online for the art they do if they lead a separate life that has nothing to do with PE. Or that is that I would imagine.
Quote from: SIEGSIEGSIEG on August 08, 2022, 03:59:13 PM
Quote from: Harvest on August 08, 2022, 01:50:49 AM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on August 07, 2022, 06:53:16 PM
Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.
to me this is the crux of the situation. if a genre founded on transgression is no longer transgressive, what really is it? how does one advance a genre that many now consider a meme?
i often joke with my band mates that we are simply the new form of a led zeppelin cover band in a smokey bar. we are simply playing the sounds you want to hear.
Which subjects in PE are no longer transgressive? From wikipedia: "Transgressive art is art that aims to outrage or violate basic morals and sensibilities". I would say you can tick the box "violate basic morals and sensibilities" with most normal people when it comes to any PE. Transgression is there even if there's no ongoing public outrage 24/7. Even if the audience is not shocked, they can still find the music and visuals to be transgressive in a good way.
I find most PE to be transgressive for myself and it does not mean I am shocked or I do not like it. It's the transgressive quality of the music that makes me listen to PE. It's pure fucking transgressive filth most of the time and it has a cathartic and therapeutic effect because of that.
There is tremendous amount of power in PE as an art. And by power I mean that people are willing to voice their opinion that this shouldn't exist or this should be censored, this should not be allowed there etc. There was a huge discussion in a finnish experimental music facebook group with thousands of people (Mikko talked about this somewhere in the forums also), because people felt that ANY act associated with Freak Animals should not be allowed posted in the group, because it did not fit their worldview. People were leaving the group left and right and voicing strongly their opinions against and for.
My point being here is that you do not need to show much to people outside PE culture and you get an outrage. There are no public outrages, because the acts that would cause the outrage are working so underground and just focusing on the art. If they wanted more outrage it would be very easy. But most PE acts probably enjoy making and presenting the transgressive art to the people who are interested in it, rather than shocking the public. For example Bizarre uproar would cause a strong public backlash almost certainly to a more mainstream venue and the bands performing with it if they were non-PE. Filth and Violence label is (as far as I know) as underground as possible because there was strong opposition from the leftist/anarchist circles in Finland and sort of public outlash.
This is pretty rambling by me, but my point being is that if you count transgressive as something that causes public outrage and shock I am 100 percent sure you can cause that if you just reveal some of the filth to the mainstream audience in a form or another. Most people just don't enjoy being targeted online for the art they do if they lead a separate life that has nothing to do with PE. Or that is that I would imagine.
That is a key point that I didn't consider. It's true that transgression does not equate with producing a public shock. With the Internet too, it is easy to narrow your worldview into a focus only on the niche subject matter that you find interesting at the expense of forgetting how the average person would view it.
I think I was using "transgressive" when I should have been saying "counter-cultural." In America right now almost everything becomes a left-right political issue, so I am wondering what place, if any, industrial might have in it as a potential agent of change.
Also, thinking about it more, there is no need for transgression to be inherently social in any way, there just needs to be some set of rules/norms in place. It might make for more interesting transgressive art, for instance, for someone to deliberately transgress upon their self-imposed morals.
Quote from: SIEGSIEGSIEG on August 08, 2022, 03:59:13 PM
Quote from: Harvest on August 08, 2022, 01:50:49 AM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on August 07, 2022, 06:53:16 PM
Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.
to me this is the crux of the situation. if a genre founded on transgression is no longer transgressive, what really is it? how does one advance a genre that many now consider a meme?
i often joke with my band mates that we are simply the new form of a led zeppelin cover band in a smokey bar. we are simply playing the sounds you want to hear.
There is tremendous amount of power in PE as an art. And by power I mean that people are willing to voice their opinion that this shouldn't exist or this should be censored, this should not be allowed there etc. There was a huge discussion in a finnish experimental music facebook group with thousands of people (Mikko talked about this somewhere in the forums also), because people felt that ANY act associated with Freak Animals should not be allowed posted in the group, because it did not fit their worldview. People were leaving the group left and right and voicing strongly their opinions against and for.
I have talked about this multiple times. Also currently latest SI#13 has couple writing that has a bit about transgression.
I think it is pointless is you treat word transgressive as if it would be like... it would need to be almost
paranormal? Argument, that because something exists, something is visible in society, it would no longer be transgressive.
It is absolutely and without doubt possible to find in blink of an eye what is a
violation of accepted or imposed boundaries, especially those of social acceptability even within noise scene or art world. It doesn't mean everybody would be offended. It doesn't meant it would be done simply for sake of being offensive. From day one, transgressive art had its audience who liked what it had to offer. Even when it may have made them uncomfortable or confused. You got guys who liked it for being extreme, and you got the people who considered it was using language and iconography that spoke about world in other ways than is common.
Sure I agree with Thermophile post few messages ago, that there is sort of inflation of material. In media that is flooded with true crime, what is the need of true crime power electronics? In society flooded with hardcore pornography, what is the point of sex-noise tape? I think these are relevant questions, but also utterly easy for me personally:
I would assume, anyone would see the difference what is with yet another true crime podcast episode about some petty criminal, and dumb subhuman wreck who just happened to axeslaughter his family, vs. bizarre unique serial killer? I am sure people will also see the difference yet another pointless onlyfans cam-whore, and the protagonists who created juicy xxx culture based on skills, ideas, balls. In countries where you were under hunt of authorities, but just wanted to put out next issue of "Spanking Ritual" into obscure book shop shelves. As couple simple short examples. There is absolutely HUGE difference of the mundane house-wife true crime exploitation that floods the media now, and... well, something that goes beyond it. There is enormous difference of business of contemporary whoredom vs pornographic creativity.
One of qualities of advancement of PE/industrial, has already been increased context and being specific. Back in the day, it could have been that you have seen texas chainsaw massacre or got issue of Hustler to cut couple pictures to cover and that's fine. Some probably still do it, but the pornography of many contemporary PE has been very specific. How, why and by who it happens, if not made by creator of sound, how it is linked to the work, is probably vastly different. I remain absolute thrilled by early Merzbow idea of "lowest arts", but also realize that many other approach xxx related matters from another perspective. If someone does not see what is the context and sees only naked skin, I would guess it is only natural.
It is up to debate, what one means with the term transgressive art. When Nick Zedd was using term, it was for "art that aims to outrage or violate basic morals and sensibilities".
Due a lot of noise or power electronics is not very visible or public, and that it reaches mostly the lovers, not haters, it may not be intended to violate morals of public, but we can surely see how often, and how easily it factually does it, even in context of noise scene.
Advancement of PE / Industrial has happened all the time, I already gave fairly big list of who I think are musically pushing it. There is also thematic push happening. Expansion of themes, and not only for sake of being "different", but dealing with something that is personally capturing and it naturally goes deeper. Lets say yesterday there was interview of Ed / Final Solution on WCN podcast. Doing noise project focusing on walmart.. or more precisely on the consumer society hysteria that goes into level of insanity. In a way critique to consumer society is nothing new in industrial music. Part of it has been tesco-disco from beginning so to say, but the way he described his obsessive observations of whole thing, the videos of incidents, I believe he even hosts walmart themed fb group just for all the freaky shit happening on aisles, it has sort of Ballardian quality to it. Same time repulsive and even offensive (to me personally), but depicts certain psychology by having guys to approach it as banally as theme of sex.