In the gear section of this forum, I notice a few questions asking what's "the best way" to produce whatever kind of sound or effect. While understanding that that's one of the forum's purposes, I've got to ask - what happened to experimentation? What happened to people just getting their hands on any gear and just fucking around and finding out?
I know when some people are starting doing Noise they have no idea how to do it. That bit's alright. It's just that I also get the impression that some people just want ideas handed to them so they can just copy them.
I wonder if it's some new development in information in consumer culture in general - everything has to be explained. Like all those tutorials on YT that explain pretty much everything from how to put on a t-shirt to how to build a house out of horse shit.
Or maybe it's that everything that can be done in Noise has been done and it's a classic case of just repeat repeat repeat ad nauseum? The ideas are all exhausted. I'm quite prepared to believe that. Just how much can any one genre innovate anyway?
I rarely look in the gear section but I had to smile because of the three "best xxx for xxx?" type of threads. It reminds me about video game youtube, where even single player games have a huge load of videos on "best teams", what "gear is meta" on "which character to play" to progress fast.
I don't think it is an issue, there is always a teacher - student relationship in any craft. Creative people will be able to work on solid ideas themselves after a bit of inspiration. Surely that counts for making noise aswell. I am sure the ideas are far from exhausted.
The language is just a reflection on what we learn from the almighty algorithm. Clickbait works, so that is what we read everywhere.
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I read a couple of audio gear forums (because in one of my dreamlands, one of my hobbies is finding dumpstered stereos and refurbishing them), and there is a consistent stream of people asking, "I have these two receivers. Which one is better?" They do this with speakers, turntables, decks, CD players, etc. The common sense response, or at least you would think it was common sense, is, "Which one sounds better to you?" or "Which one do you like more?" I guess they're out there scrounging for gear, but they can't even make up their own subjective mind on which they prefer? They either can't be bothered to hook them up, or maybe...and this is a depressing thought...it doesn't even occur to them to A/B listen and experiment with them. Buying things. Consuming things. That's what is important. Listening is...blah, whatever. This is related to how I would response in the Last time bought the item the "difficult way" thread. Buying the physical items is the important part. Listening to them...not so much. My hunch is this is all related. Maybe because the shortening attention spans? The hunt, the absorption, being resourceful...time investment is of low value and low consideration. RIGHT NOW is the priority.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 14, 2023, 03:09:46 PM
It's just that I also get the impression that some people just want ideas handed to them so they can just copy them
I've worked with people where that was clearly the case. And instead of something like "shooting for an established artist's sound and finding their own along the way," these people weren't interested in experimentation. Explicit imitation was the name of the game, and they weren't even willing to put in the work required to make
that happen. They just wanted the most direct route to mimicry ("make me sound like this"). To me, this all feels antithetical to the ethos of noise, a "genre" where idiosyncratic methods and isolated ideas are a huge part of what makes it exciting. Kind of ironic that in a field where freedom is an foundational element, some folks just want strict instructions. Maybe it's a "younger generation" thing?
Also, I've noticed there's a huge difference in character between (a) the people (especially those who are clearly just starting out) who've fixated on asking me questions about what kind of gear I use vs (b) everyone else.
I would like to add that a willingness to experiment and find what works for you should apply to themes/motivating ideas just as much as the noise itself.
I think a lot of newcomers see an established noise performer's table full of synths, mixers, pedals, cables, mics etc and think that they started with all that professional and expensive music equipment from day one, when the reality is they all probably experimented and got an initial grasp with exploring noise as teenagers/students with little-to-no-budget, using repurposed equipment that was obsolescent, abundant in quality and able to be damaged/broken with little financial or sentimental regret.
Just on the generational thing -
I know that it's the usual thing for young people to enthusiastically embrace something that excites them and want to sound like it exactly. I was the same. Always wanted to get the established Harsh Noise sound. Could never achieve it. What I achieved was my own way of doing things.
So maybe it's a case of younger potentials just finding their feet. There's nothing to say that someone posting "can anyone tell me how I can sound exactly like Pharmakon?" or whatever isn't going to, a few years later, come up with something everyone else is going to be impressed by.
Still - I can't help but be perturbed at how un self conscious it is. I was particularly inspired by the post recently that asked what's the best speakers to make feedback. I just thought, shit mate, get a cheap shit speaker and a cheap shit mic and go for broke. Have fun with it. Experiment with it. That's the kind of thing that I think makes the better Noise. It seems to me a bit sad that people are actually asking for "the best" way to create something that's been generated for decades now. Never mind "the best", do what you want to do.
All the lifers who are having their records discussed on the podcasts all started as young and stupid as anyone else. It's no crime to be young and stupid. It is a crime to stay that way. Do things your way and maybe others will consider it "the best" in time. Maybe not. But if you're going to do Noise, just fucking do it! It's about learning and getting ideas and inspiration, not wanting to re-hash Whitehouse or The Rita for the umpteenth bloody time.
(And yea, I agree it's the same with the themes. At least get a new sexual fetish).
I think it's sensible to offer some advice regarding gear: it's all too easy to just fuck around inside a DAW with VST's and end up with uninspired and shitty Bandcamp noise. A decent mixer, some specific cheap pedals and the fundamentals of recording are the essentials and don't yet push anyone towards any specific sound
Among guys who I communicate with, it is very usual that even so called "experts" talk about gear, share advice, share their doubts or critic against specific gear. It may not work in that very basic level at that point.
Just yesterday, I was at local site, that has two big kind of satellite dish looking thing located on opposite end of field. when you talk to one, it collects the sound physically, focuses it into more compressed "beam of sound" and this goes over the field into other disc that again collects the sound waves, compresses it into center and despite long distance, volume is like you would talk with someone next to you. All acoustics & physics, no electricity involved. Long time idea has been that maybe bringing speaker or some acoustic sound objects to play and have recorder. Capture both field recordings of all the surroundings, but also this somewhat eerie decayed "sound transmission" that resembles old radio transmissions or such.
So, of course it ain't "noise strating from scracth", but kind of connoisseur level noise gear discussion hah.. Where discussion happens on theme of what can be used to get specific kind of sound, that would be unlike something you get from other things. People who hear the details, may recognize this is something, that can't be really replicated by just buying EQ and behringer delay.. but there is something other quality in sound, despite narrow frequency range and short tinny delay is audible.
I do understand some gear talk too, even on basic level. Think of as simple thing as delay pedal. If you would be at very beginning and you have no friends nearby, feel need of having delay pedal.. would it make more sense to ASK fellow noisehead, or look some shitty youtube guitar videos where they show how the delay works with rock riffs. Or just buy blindly relatively expensive pedals and find out it wasn't what you were looking for. The vast difference of Boss DD series digital delay vs... space echo replica vs. something else. Even myself, I feel I need delay that is something between Boss DD and Mooer Ana Echo. Do I want to waste money just to get another that is same as either one. Not really. It needs to have specific quality that is somewhere between the two.
I think this above is result of OPTIONS TO BUY. I don't think in the 90's, noise was something that there was options to buy specific gear. Now that it is, it is not only generational difference, but difference created by new situation. Many questions would have not made any sense. Now you can can ask "I need random pulse generator.. any advice?". And you might soon have guy who knows what you mean, and can forward you to exact piece of gear that does that.
Gear specifically made for Noise is something I've never been interested in. It represents yet another lack of imagination, to me. It pre-determines what kind of sound you're going to get. And if it's a matter of just going, "what can I get to sound like this?" and just getting something made specifically for that, well, good luck and all but they haven't actually made an effort to achieve a sound, they've just paid someone else for it.
I prefer it when people either make gear themselves to get what they want or just struggle with gear to get some sound they eventually want. It's not like Noise requires very complex origins. Just farting through a megaphone can count. But if people can buy a specific "Fart Through A Megaphone Synth", well, fucking whatever.
It seems that with different options come different attitudes towards Noise. I always liked the challenge of producing sounds, and even the random element of it, coming up with something unexpected but desirable. But now it seems that people are very, very specific. It suggests a lack of risk-taking and just blatant acceptance of imitation and homogenisation. Not my bag, but if that's how it is, that's how it is.
EDIT -
Quote from: host body on May 15, 2023, 09:07:59 AMI think it's sensible to offer some advice regarding gear: it's all too easy to just fuck around inside a DAW with VST's and end up with uninspired and shitty Bandcamp noise. A decent mixer, some specific cheap pedals and the fundamentals of recording are the essentials and don't yet push anyone towards any specific sound
You're right and that's a valid point.
Quote from: host body on May 15, 2023, 09:07:59 AM
I think it's sensible to offer some advice regarding gear: it's all too easy to just fuck around inside a DAW with VST's and end up with uninspired and shitty Bandcamp noise. A decent mixer, some specific cheap pedals and the fundamentals of recording are the essentials and don't yet push anyone towards any specific sound
I agree. As an newcomer in making noise, and in noise scene in general, it must say that gear advice that i had from i.e. Host Body, FreakAnimalFinland and others have been absolutely crucial in my personal development.
I have long background in conventional rock music and when i started to delve into noise / industrial, the main obstacle in starting the noise making was the abstract nature of noise and the sounds presented. I mean that i could easily spot the sounds that i liked but i didn't have any clue how those sounds were produced and recorded.
In guitar-oriented rock you can spot the sounds and effects, multitracking etc. used more easily than in noise. It's easy to dissect, let's say, how Radio Birdman achieved their guitar sounds in Radios Appear LP than how The Rita got those walls of noise that dominate the Magazine LP. Or how Aprapat processed and multitracked those junk metal recordings to achieve the sounds in Born Rare tape and so on.
I personally don't see what's the point to sound as someone else? For me this is an experiment sound. To try and found. But yeah I like to chat with guys about som tone and pedals maybe, but it is not a thing to follow. And this is not only that "noise" genre. Why do people use same plug-ins and sounds? To make copies? For what...?
I see it like painting. Its fine to ask for recommendations on a brush or paints, but for fucks sake dont just try and paint your favourite painting.
Quote from: Leewar on May 15, 2023, 11:00:44 PM
I see it like painting. Its fine to ask for recommendations on a brush or paints, but for fucks sake dont just try and paint your favourite painting.
I see it the same way and might add that to make that painting, it's likely you will have to know and master one or several tools and techniques that you may never be able to discover or learn on your own.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 14, 2023, 03:09:46 PM
In the gear section of this forum, I notice a few questions asking what's "the best way" to produce whatever kind of sound or effect. While understanding that that's one of the forum's purposes, I've got to ask - what happened to experimentation? What happened to people just getting their hands on any gear and just fucking around and finding out?
I know when some people are starting doing Noise they have no idea how to do it. That bit's alright. It's just that I also get the impression that some people just want ideas handed to them so they can just copy them.
I wonder if it's some new development in information in consumer culture in general - everything has to be explained. Like all those tutorials on YT that explain pretty much everything from how to put on a t-shirt to how to build a house out of horse shit.
Or maybe it's that everything that can be done in Noise has been done and it's a classic case of just repeat repeat repeat ad nauseum? The ideas are all exhausted. I'm quite prepared to believe that. Just how much can any one genre innovate anyway?
It's not like the old guard or more established artists never asked for advice early or later in their career, so why the hostility? If someone is looking for a specific sound or at least some direction, is that so wrong? Isn't it smart to ask first before splurge a bit of money on some pedals, figuring out you don't even like making noise with pedals, trying to sell those pedals before realizing those pedals won't hold any resell value whatsoever?
Have you never been to a noise show, been amazed at someones sound and asked yourself "how does he/she does it?" ? (If your answer is no, then you are getting jaded. If both answers are no, maybe its time to seek a new hobby).
Quote from: W.K. on May 15, 2023, 11:55:52 PM
If someone is looking for a specific sound or at least some direction, is that so wrong?
I've already covered that in this thread, but to repeat - nothing against asking for a bit of basic advice, everything against wanting to sound just like someone else. Two very seperate things, in fact.
Quote from: W.K. on May 15, 2023, 11:55:52 PMHave you never been to a noise show, been amazed at someones sound and asked yourself "how does he/she does it?" ? (If your answer is no, then you are getting jaded. If both answers are no, maybe its time to seek a new hobby).
No, never, at all the Noise gigs I've been to, because I'm just there for the sound and the energy. That's not being jaded, that's being into the sound and the energy. I saw Merzbow play with two laptops. Never occurred to me to wonder what sort of software he was using. Why should I? It doesn't matter. But it would matter to people who want to sound exactly like Merzbow.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 16, 2023, 01:43:50 AM
I saw Merzbow play with two laptops. Never occurred to me to wonder what sort of software he was using. Why should I? It doesn't matter. But it would matter to people who want to sound exactly like Merzbow.
I'm actually interested in what software he used to play live, hah. And I only use a laptop for recording. was it MAX?
Hell, I'm always interested in how sounds are made. Like, I don't go around asking stuff online (anymore) but starting out sure I tried to find out what kind of gear in general people used. I love gear chat, I love Trashware and I love geeking out about what my favourite artists use. In general a newbie asking what distortion pedal is best is like a guitarist just starting asking what guitar is best. They'll find their way, it's just a starting point. I don't feel one bit annoyed or threatened by younger people looking for advice or guidance.
Quote from: host body on May 16, 2023, 09:22:51 AM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 16, 2023, 01:43:50 AM
I saw Merzbow play with two laptops. Never occurred to me to wonder what sort of software he was using. Why should I? It doesn't matter. But it would matter to people who want to sound exactly like Merzbow.
I'm actually interested in what software he used to play live, hah. And I only use a laptop for recording. was it MAX?
Hell, I'm always interested in how sounds are made. Like, I don't go around asking stuff online (anymore) but starting out sure I tried to find out what kind of gear in general people used. I love gear chat, I love Trashware and I love geeking out about what my favourite artists use. In general a newbie asking what distortion pedal is best is like a guitarist just starting asking what guitar is best. They'll find their way, it's just a starting point. I don't feel one bit annoyed or threatened by younger people looking for advice or guidance.
Yes, the starting point is crucial. It is far more easier to pursuit one's own personal approach and style if there is even one reference point to get things moving. That combined with actual process of listening to the noise records and absorbing all things connected to noise / industrial culture.
Quote from: Commander15 on May 16, 2023, 10:03:03 AM
Quote from: host body on May 16, 2023, 09:22:51 AM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 16, 2023, 01:43:50 AM
I saw Merzbow play with two laptops. Never occurred to me to wonder what sort of software he was using. Why should I? It doesn't matter. But it would matter to people who want to sound exactly like Merzbow.
I'm actually interested in what software he used to play live, hah. And I only use a laptop for recording. was it MAX?
Hell, I'm always interested in how sounds are made. Like, I don't go around asking stuff online (anymore) but starting out sure I tried to find out what kind of gear in general people used. I love gear chat, I love Trashware and I love geeking out about what my favourite artists use. In general a newbie asking what distortion pedal is best is like a guitarist just starting asking what guitar is best. They'll find their way, it's just a starting point. I don't feel one bit annoyed or threatened by younger people looking for advice or guidance.
Yes, the starting point is crucial. It is far more easier to pursuit one's own personal approach and style if there is even one reference point to get things moving. That combined with actual process of listening to the noise records and absorbing all things connected to noise / industrial culture.
Excuse for quote mountain here. Indeed, I also do not really want to know Merzbows gear or how he uses it as intent to replicate it, but simply out of curiosity. Artificial Invagination and Noisembryo for example. I have formerly stated, that if there would be one artists to check out while he works, that era Merzbow would be probably it.
Noise of that level is so much more about taste and sense of style, that regardless if you get the gear list, I doubt you will be able to replicate it. Talent to use, plus even more the taste and vision.
I don't think I started topic of it, but not long ago, I was following a bit of discussion related to noise newbies, where was mentioned that too many people don't have anything to really express and they merely do it because it is easy to do something and you can then be one of those guys who made noise release. Yeah, perhaps. There are lots of that these days, but I don't see it purely negative. There is not always mythological level of how noise project started.
As example, back in '93, myself and Harald Mentor were talking about Bizarre Uproar, MITB and stuff such as that. Conclusion was "What it really takes? WE
could do it". We agreed, lets do C-20 split tape! Harald goes for radio-noise, I got very very little of ideas, if any. Tape is made, couple is sent out. 30 years later, both of us still here, making noise. In a way, occasionally works can benefit from someone saying don't bother us with you lame racket, you better step up the game. Occasionally, you can patiently repeat the same advices you've given to countless noise fellows, who some became masters of their craft in relatively short time after given couple encouraging words and a bit of constructive critisim.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 16, 2023, 06:47:38 PMI was following a bit of discussion related to noise newbies, where was mentioned that too many people don't have anything to really express and they merely do it because it is easy to do something and you can then be one of those guys who made noise release. Yeah, perhaps. There are lots of that these days, but I don't see it purely negative.
I do. I recall when there was an absolute tsunami of wall Noise releases. Seems to have died down as far as I can see, and that's a good thing. Every day it seemed, there was an announcement of some dick who'd set his Boss Death Metal pedal to stun for half an hour, recorded it, then proclaimed it to represent pure nihilism or his "obsession" for women's tights or some crap.
What we got was an oversaturated, glutted market chock full of shit that these days, rightly, no one remembers (except me, and not fondly). And it's the same situation today. There's just too much of the same old shit. Far too much. Supply exceeds demand.
I know how scenes operate. I know it's initially all about the "wow" and awe of discovery, wanting to get involved by doing pretty much the same thing, then either getting over it, getting to be good at it or getting one's own personal style (as individual as anyone can get, of course - much of this is imitation anyway) which is either accepted or not. For my part, though, the saturation has resulted in too much of the same thing.
So when I see people asking about exactly how someone achieved what kind of sound so they can do it themselves, I just think, great, here we go again, just what the world needed, another imitation. And I think it represents a greater malaise in music generally, which is no doubt impossible to cure. Noise hasn't achieved mainstream recognition (thank fuck) but it has achieved mainstream production values.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 17, 2023, 01:39:46 AM
I do. I recall when there was an absolute tsunami of wall Noise releases. Seems to have died down as far as I can see, and that's a good thing. Every day it seemed, there was an announcement of some dick who'd set his Boss Death Metal pedal to stun for half an hour, recorded it, then proclaimed it to represent pure nihilism or his "obsession" for women's tights or some crap.
What we got was an oversaturated, glutted market chock full of shit that these days, rightly, no one remembers (except me, and not fondly). And it's the same situation today. There's just too much of the same old shit. Far too much. Supply exceeds demand.
My assumption is, this applies to download/stream scene? As much as I get noise all the time, abundance of dull HWN never was big problem, as you could easily just not buy, not listen, specific makers. Also abundance of physical noise is quite big, but there is funny paradox, that when evaluating your own listening habits, there may be solution. Lets say you'd want new interesting noise. Settling for NEW noise CD releases. Not reissues. Suddenly, I'd say, you CAN listen every single cd of harsh noise that comes out 2023. My experience thus far is, that 2023 will KILL. For quality, cd's that stand out as albums, cd's that will likely survive test of time etc. It would be foolish think all material out there should be unique. It can't be, as simple as that. Then notion of uniqueness would be obsolete if its opposite would not exist.
Creative urge is something that would be foolish to suppress, by expecting that current teenager who gets excited of noise, should first learn 5 decades worth of what has been already done, and then do something different and unique. Nah. I would suppose, he would do noise for himself, and the new guys like him, who won't be "this sounds just like that OVMN tape that came on MSNP ...back in when you were not born". He can rightfully ask what existence of unheard OVMN tape has to do with his creative urge?
Of course phenomena of absolute copycats and bandwagon jumpers is different, but in noise, there are dozen and dozens of people who never heard and never listened and never will listen, all the stuff we did. They have new ltd 100 tapes in 2023 that can be just as exciting as ltd 100 tape from 2003.
It might or might not have had it own topic. Lets phrase question as:
Noise as permanent museum or noise as movement? There are plenty of reasons why noise could be creative movement. Movement as something constantly on move (not to be confused to progress and advancement). Now, we are in situation where communication may mean even more. For those who don't like to wade in the muddy waters of ongoing noise movement, and only seek for the very best releases, they may have to communicate and search with likeminded people to find some, and not just dive into endless HWN bandcamp streams to get bored?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 17, 2023, 09:23:35 AM
My assumption is, this applies to download/stream scene?
Sort of, but there was a lot of physical product as well. I seem to recall reading the "Noise" section in the Troniks forum and it was almost wall-to-wall Wall. Tapes and cdrs, mostly, as well as downloads. And it was a fairly "new" thing happening at the time, lots of what I presumed to be younger people getting excited by it.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 17, 2023, 09:23:35 AMIt would be foolish think all material out there should be unique.
Nor do I. I've stated here before how I've got no problem with Average Noise. I recall the push-back on that was a lot of people
do expect what they do to be somehow unique enough to gain some attention. You can't win either way. But as far as also-rans are concerned I've got my limits and I'm ready to say so.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 17, 2023, 09:23:35 AMCreative urge is something that would be foolish to suppress, by expecting that current teenager who gets excited of noise, should first learn 5 decades worth of what has been already done, and then do something different and unique.
As I've stated a couple of times that's not what I'm saying. I'm at an age and stage where I'm just past all the hand-me-everything-on-a-plate-and-I'll-make-an-album-exactly-like-A, B and C. As I've stated, there's a difference between what you describe and that.
I'm not shitting on excited new people. I'm shitting on a lack of personal curiosity and even an attempt at innovation. I think that at this stage with Noise, a few decades in, all the innovation has no doubt been done and all we've got is repetition. Some new releases, as you state, will no doubt be worthy in and of themselves. But it's why I usually just stick to "the classics" as I understand them. When I do occasionally hear something that excites me, no problem.
It's a funny thing - I've noticed a lot of younger people (a couple of generations younger than me in my fifties) seem to be attracted to music that's older than they are. Is it because they're all out of ideas, or because the music that's coming out now isn't good enough? I don't know. All I know is, for example, I found it very strange being at a party when I was in my mid fourties with a bunch of kids in their twenties listening to the
exact same music I was listening to at their age. It's things like that, that leave an impression on me. Not sure what to think of it in general, though.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 17, 2023, 09:23:35 AMOf course phenomena of absolute copycats and bandwagon jumpers is different, but in noise, there are dozen and dozens of people who never heard and never listened and never will listen, all the stuff we did. They have new ltd 100 tapes in 2023 that can be just as exciting as ltd 100 tape from 2003.
That's fair enough.
Well thank god you don't have to wade in some stale bandcamp HNW / harsh noise waters if you don't want to! You can always check for example SATATUHATTA, New Forces, WCN or FA sites for interesting new stuff that has been curated by people who knows their shit.
FreakAnimalFinland brought up an excellent point in his last message: newcomers in year 2023 may never listen to some classic stuff that older people hold in high regard. Or they might, but it is not the driving motivator or influence behind their activities.
For example i started properly listening to noise with Aprapat, The New Jaakko Vanhala and Umpio. I was introduced to The New Blockaders lot later and while i think that TNB is truly groundbreaking stuff in many ways, i still hold Aprapat way bigger influence to me personally. It is the combination of the joy of being able to discover something highly relevant and that is operating actively in the same area and in this age and OFC the sheer quality of those tapes and CDs released.
Quote from: Commander15 on May 17, 2023, 11:46:08 AM
FreakAnimalFinland brought up an excellent point in his last message: newcomers in year 2023 may never listen to some classic stuff that older people hold in high regard. Or they might, but it is not the driving motivator or influence behind their activities.
It was a good point and I acknowledged it in my last post.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 17, 2023, 11:41:51 AM
I'm shitting on a lack of personal curiosity
Hasn't that pretty much been the MO of new noisers for a while now? If you're talking a generational thing, since maybe the No Fun Fest era, it's appeared to be
noise in isolation. Far-reaching interest into experimentalism in general seems to hold no value. Noise and only noise. Maybe a little interest in power-electronics for the kitsch, but brutal only in general. Tunnel vision.
I have my doubts on couple things. I think what are being described, such as the kind monochrome noise for sake of noise is old. Has been thing. Of course it exists on the side, but seems like you'd now complain of "No Fun hipster noise" and rest will think.. dude, that's so 2005. Guys who are 18 now, we born then. To put into perspective. It is that old.
Now when getting new noise tape, my experience is, that you'd more likely to get new noise tape with lo-fi piano bits mixed in noise, post harsh noise cut up compositions, tape loop pause button crank, field recordings and birds singing or some variety of the growing of new weird harsh noise, just the name few things besides HNW texture crunch. (As example, the Finn scene, where as concrete proof, one can listen through about 10 compilation CD's of Finnish noise from last 3 years and find pretty much no two bands alike.)
I feel a bit optimistic here about people who ask about gear. Even if you'd be formulating questions that I'd hope to get synth tones and vocal sound like GO, what should I go for. You can without hesitation give some advice. Or like I recall guy asking how to get that distant, little thin vocal sound like some Con-Dom, as he would be shouting in back of the big room. You can give advice, since neither of these will ever sound like those bands. If the sound of original artist can be replicated by owning specific pedal, might not be that great artist in first place?
Quote from: Zeno Marx on May 17, 2023, 05:44:59 PM
Far-reaching interest into experimentalism in general seems to hold no value. Noise and only noise.
What seems to have happened, which has happened for a few decades now, is that people like to pursue genres and sub-genres in some kind of imagined "authenticity" by keeping them in their own little places. Which I think is why so many sub-sub-sub genres keep springing up. A little bit of difference and it suddenly turns into "a thing" on its own.
So, people have varying different projects in which they contain those elements away from each other. Crossover can't but happen, of course, but some people at least like to keep each sub-etc-genre pure. So - here's the Noise project, here's the Death Industrial project, here's the Neo Folk project....
It sort of makes sense because when people purchase a release from a particular project they like to know what they're getting and don't want surprises to disappoint them. But it does make for very homogenised listening. If that's what people want, though, that's what's going to happen.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 17, 2023, 07:35:42 PMNow when getting new noise tape, my experience is, that you'd more likely to get new noise tape with lo-fi piano bits mixed in noise, post harsh noise cut up compositions, tape loop pause button crank, field recordings and birds singing or some variety of the growing of new weird harsh noise, just the name few things besides HNW texture crunch. (As example, the Finn scene, where as concrete proof, one can listen through about 10 compilation CD's of Finnish noise from last 3 years and find pretty much no two bands alike.)
I think the last type of development in Noise I was paying attention to was a kind of Jeph Jerman inspired, very heavy on the tape hiss cut up collage type of thing. Quite a few people from different parts of the world all getting into doing things like that at the same time. It was a lot more experimental in that it was people trying something out, taking in different ideas and in general, innovating, at least within their chosen boundaries.
On the one hand I tend to think the well is dry for Noise. Everything that can be done has been done. Noise is certainly not alone in that one. On the other hand, people will occasionally surprise me, which is great, but it certainly can't be expected to be the norm. Which is perfectly fine.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 17, 2023, 07:35:42 PM
If the sound of original artist can be replicated by owning specific pedal, might not be that great artist in first place?
Certainly in Wall Noise that's the case.
But the other thing is, we're in an age of product saturation and that counts to gear as well. There are now loads of small workshops producing gear specifically for genres like Noise. So, just like the homogeny of computer created Noise, we can enjoy the homogeny of analog Noise with the confidence that all the gear will be by Noise pervs, for Noise pervs, for just authentic, unalloyed "Noise", just like the oldies used to make.
The thing is - until now I've been under an old romantic notion that new generations shake off the influence of the last one to make something new for themselves, and that's how things are made. That has definitely changed. The late Mark Fisher wrote about how, aesthetically, there is no more future to look forward to, it's all just picking bits of the past to replicate and obsess over. I'm starting to believe he was right.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 18, 2023, 03:12:21 AM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 17, 2023, 07:35:42 PMNow when getting new noise tape, my experience is, that you'd more likely to get new noise tape with lo-fi piano bits mixed in noise, post harsh noise cut up compositions, tape loop pause button crank, field recordings and birds singing or some variety of the growing of new weird harsh noise, just the name few things besides HNW texture crunch. (As example, the Finn scene, where as concrete proof, one can listen through about 10 compilation CD's of Finnish noise from last 3 years and find pretty much no two bands alike.)
I think the last type of development in Noise I was paying attention to was a kind of Jeph Jerman inspired, very heavy on the tape hiss cut up collage type of thing. Quite a few people from different parts of the world all getting into doing things like that at the same time. It was a lot more experimental in that it was people trying something out, taking in different ideas and in general, innovating, at least within their chosen boundaries.
On the one hand I tend to think the well is dry for Noise. Everything that can be done has been done. Noise is certainly not alone in that one. On the other hand, people will occasionally surprise me, which is great, but it certainly can't be expected to be the norm. Which is perfectly fine.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 17, 2023, 07:35:42 PM
If the sound of original artist can be replicated by owning specific pedal, might not be that great artist in first place?
Certainly in Wall Noise that's the case.
But the other thing is, we're in an age of product saturation and that counts to gear as well. There are now loads of small workshops producing gear specifically for genres like Noise. So, just like the homogeny of computer created Noise, we can enjoy the homogeny of analog Noise with the confidence that all the gear will be by Noise pervs, for Noise pervs, for just authentic, unalloyed "Noise", just like the oldies used to make.
The thing is - until now I've been under an old romantic notion that new generations shake off the influence of the last one to make something new for themselves, and that's how things are made. That has definitely changed. The late Mark Fisher wrote about how, aesthetically, there is no more future to look forward to, it's all just picking bits of the past to replicate and obsess over. I'm starting to believe he was right.
With gear it is the same microlevel thing happening in noise that has been happening for years in guitar-centric genres i.e blues, sludge and worship music. Specialized boutique makers catering for spesific crowd. It's an cottage industry and i think that if the gear is to be blamed on this hypothetical downfall of originality in noise, it is the DOD, Boss and other big names that are to be blamed instead of some garage operations.
In my mind the real culprits are capitalistic consumer mentality, social media fueled alienation and general ultramaterialistic world view in western countries. If newcomer is lacking the inner vision and drive to contribute something to the scene and prime motivation behind the actions are petty and selfish needs to be acknowledged and be seen and affirmed by strangers in internet, then the gear question is highly irrelevant. Youngster with DOD Death Metal or some noise synth may or may not grow into real noisemaker, only time will tell. But meanwhile i think it would be beneficial to them, and all of us, to push them to right direction by others.
Fishers notion is pretty spot on when it is applied to more mainstream oriented music genres where the sameyness and historical references are abundant, but honestly i don't think it can be applied to noise with same certainity. Like FreakAnimalFinland wrote, there are no "same" or nostalgia sounding acts within the Finnish scene that is featured in compilations and that has been putting out records. There is no Merzbow or classic PE cover acts, but incredible variety of personal approaches to noise and industrial sound. And i think that this would also apply to foreign noise scenes outside the bandcamp shit swamp.
The specialist gear market may be small comparatively, but it's an example of what I mean. Instead of taking something that's cheaply available and making it do things it wasn't meant to do, it's purposely giving Noise pervs tools for "just Noise", which may be what people want and it may be the gear themselves are perfectly good tools, but to me it shows the same lack of imagination.
And I also think it's down to consumer mentality. There's no different, I think, between someone buying a flying V and wanting to sound just like Dimebag Darrel and someone buying a Feedbacker 2000 and wanting to sound just like Skin Crime. I see all of that as consumerist - buy the stuff, join the club, supply the market with more copies.
Certainly it comes down to whether any newcomer has any originality or vision or not. And technically, that person could come up with something at least their own regardless of what gear they use. So I don't think it matters if they're using a Boss pedal or a NoiseRUs pedal. And the same applies to someone with no originality.
Noise certainly has had its nostalgia moments. Like a lot of labels all going for the ruined photocopy look on their tape covers. Bloody hell, I'm getting sick of seeing that. It doesn't inspire confidence in the actual sounds. I think there are different themes coming in, which is good, although how themes are actually expressed in Noise is another matter. And at this rate I think PE cover bands are a matter of time.
I'm not against copyists entirely. Torturing Nurse, for example, pretty much wanted to be Hijokaidan, as I understand it. I've got time for Subklinik, who are about as Death Industrial pastiche as it gets. But to go back to what I was on about when I started this thread, when people are actually asking how to use specific gear in a specific way to get a specific sound, that, to me, just sounds like someone just not prepared to put in a bit of original thinking in applying to a situation.
Like if we could compare ten people, all wanting to generate feedback from an amp. That sound, in itself, I've got to say is one of, maybe the most, over-used in Noise and there are plenty of times I've been sick of hearing it. But one of those ten just might stumble on a way to make it sound a bit fresher, but they wont if they play by "the rules". Personally, I have more time for that then the other nine who are just repeating what Whitehouse started decades ago whether they realise it or not.
If people are content with the same old, that's their business. Couldn't stop them even if I wanted to. But I think this is a relevant issue to at least consider and discuss.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 17, 2023, 01:39:46 AM
Every day it seemed, there was an announcement of some dick who'd set his Boss Death Metal pedal to stun for half an hour, recorded it, then proclaimed it to represent pure nihilism or his "obsession" for women's tights or some crap.
To this day i still find the use of the word "Obsession" in promo blurbs so tedious im immediately put off listening to or buying it.
Quote from: Leewar on May 18, 2023, 12:24:25 PM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 17, 2023, 01:39:46 AM
Every day it seemed, there was an announcement of some dick who'd set his Boss Death Metal pedal to stun for half an hour, recorded it, then proclaimed it to represent pure nihilism or his "obsession" for women's tights or some crap.
To this day i still find the use of the word "Obsession" in promo blurbs so tedious im immediately put off listening to or buying it.
Not long time ago i remember seeing this promo blurb for some HNW bandcamp release that was about obsession of big spiders fucking humans.
Thinking about this a little further - does anyone remember a video in which two US Noisepervs (can't remember who right now, I think one of them might've been Stimbox?) are talking about what they do, basically interviewing each other, and one of them made the comment that when someone asks to see his live set-up, he's got no problem showing it to them, because as he told it, even if someone took every exact same pedal he had and set them up the exact same way, that person would still get a different result.
The thing about that is, I don't know if something like that has ever been tested. It might be interesting - setting up a live rig and having different people play it, to see what comes out. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that has been tried, but still.
I'm inclined to believe that the sound generated would be more or less the same but the "playing" would vary. Someone could go all cut-up crash-bang-whallop, someone else would drone, someone else would maybe just want to concentrate on one particular aspect. But unless there was a swapping around of the effects, or a removal of some, I'm inclined to believe there wouldn't be that much different.
But I could be wrong.
Quote from: Commander15 on May 18, 2023, 01:24:19 PM
Quote from: Leewar on May 18, 2023, 12:24:25 PM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 17, 2023, 01:39:46 AM
Every day it seemed, there was an announcement of some dick who'd set his Boss Death Metal pedal to stun for half an hour, recorded it, then proclaimed it to represent pure nihilism or his "obsession" for women's tights or some crap.
To this day i still find the use of the word "Obsession" in promo blurbs so tedious im immediately put off listening to or buying it.
Not long time ago i remember seeing this promo blurb for some HNW bandcamp release that was about obsession of big spiders fucking humans.
At least thats a slightly different take on the aforementioned womens tights/stockings/high heels twaddle.
Quote from: Leewar on May 18, 2023, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: Commander15 on May 18, 2023, 01:24:19 PM
Quote from: Leewar on May 18, 2023, 12:24:25 PM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 17, 2023, 01:39:46 AM
Every day it seemed, there was an announcement of some dick who'd set his Boss Death Metal pedal to stun for half an hour, recorded it, then proclaimed it to represent pure nihilism or his "obsession" for women's tights or some crap.
To this day i still find the use of the word "Obsession" in promo blurbs so tedious im immediately put off listening to or buying it.
Not long time ago i remember seeing this promo blurb for some HNW bandcamp release that was about obsession of big spiders fucking humans.
At least thats a slightly different take on the aforementioned womens tights/stockings/high heels twaddle.
Or serial killer / giallo stuff.
All coming texts is just my mind floating: this breaking the sound is final back to me, something you( read I) couldn't handle before going through everything else. You have to understand a lot of genres to get this point. Have to have accomplished to understand this final version of sound. There is no shortcuts. If you have to tell someone what is distortion pedal you are in a wrong table.
But(!) There really is a room and time for dinner with hairy-back guys who give you a tips with mics, distances, etc. But it is maybe someday when you're in a deep enough. Start to do something is with gears only gives an others only cheap second hand pieces. There is nothing wrong with bandcamp projects to me. It is easy way to spread the sound. If someone spend some money to release your tape...you are noticed. And some more will noticed you. Keep on grunting. Leijonilla välipäivä.
Thinking back to when I started out... it does not matter if someone is asking what to use to sound like The Rita or whoever, so long as what they have in mind is that what they actually would like is the puzzlebox from Hellraiser- imaging sounds beyond the possibilities of gear.
I know I am a bit of a socially retarded outsider, but I get all the points in this thread. Experimentation is the name of the game, and this is a fairly mature art form so it does take a level of maturity to tackle. I'm aware that over the course of trying to figure things out I've made a lot of admittedly weak or straight up bad material, but I am proud to say that I can't remember asking anyone for gear recs and have never striven to carbon-copy people that inspire me. Art is -the- path of self-discovery, so copying people seems antithetical. I enjoy listening to artists who inspire me because I can hear they use the gear I like to use and hearing how they use it gives me ideas in how to use it for my own work because in my mind, we are trying to express similar things but are individuals who will have our own flavors in the end. I will say that after playing a decent amount of "midwest harsh noise" shows it left me a bit disillusioned with the whole thing because most people's gear setups look identical and everyone just wants to trade "good set dude"-s. I am currently still working towards the sound that inspired me to make non-traditional music, and although it kind of bums me out it's taken so long I do have a realistic perception at this point in my life that this stuff is not natural to most people and does take work to make quality material. Hearing people use the same gear and sounds over and over only inspires me to continue down the long clumsy path towards self realization.
I agree that "noise oriented" gear is also a little silly, because that was what I started on, but it's kind of come full circle and I enjoy hearing experienced artists who can use that gear and still make potent work. Key word being experienced, because if it's a newbie I tend to find it uninspired and I know they don't know the character of their gear is super audible. In this area I am only dealing out judgment in areas I have personally waded through. Something else that has inspired me to stay original is reading comments on this forum that experienced guys can hear XYZ so I would never want to do something where some old head will write it off as "contact mic through fuzz pedal" tripe. Unfortunately it does seem like the majority of people nowadays value scene-comraderie over originality. Which I guess you could chalk up to different strokes for different folks. Maybe they're just doing it for fun or as a group hobby. Doesn't speak to me personally and tends to add more resistance to my determination towards self-realization.