Occasionally talk with people about necessity of loudness in noise.
Even if you don't actually record with microphones, from the room, it often affects the type of sound you get in line recording if it affects feedback etc.
I have PA system. I do have quite heavy duty bass amp (350W with 4 x 10" speakers is it?). I also sometimes plug in merely to stereo amp and regular speakers. But lately have used basic amplifier combos for very good sound.
First of all, the type of pressure you get out from 60-100W combo played loud, is very different from how PA or stereo speakers work. But also lots of difference between guitar combos.
While some appear to trust "bigger the better" or "the more expensive, the better" kind of logic, I think some of my best sounds I have got is old Yamaha bass combo. 40 wats? Might have been. But appears louder and more rugged sounding than many others. One big speaker in front, volume treble/mid/bass knobs and that's it. I also use frequently Fender 100W guitar amp. 2 x 12" speakers. When the experts advice for louder and bigger things, I often get quite skeptical. You know, been there done that. World needs pretty much zero more Sunn o))))))) type bands where idea remains in volume created by stacks of amps and speakers with stupid blurry sound.
Not that I'd be much needing to buy new gear, but I know some are... and I'm interested to hear about experiments of amps and speakers, whether it's done. And also not so much interested to hear is something is greatest simply because one hasn't tried anything else or one gets by. Amplifiers what has proven to be advantage, handy, interesting, coloring sound in positive ways etc..
I don't know what exactly is technically different in modern bass combos, but when I hear sound of some of those things where you get already build-in multi effect units etc, it appears that sound is very that harsh as old combos. Where sound is really RIPPING. I don't particularly favor tube amplifiers in these cases (even if I admire tubes used to compress/"smoothen" the final sound). Transistor amps appear to have more fierce and direct sound. And in use, I find more functionality is ability to not give a fuck about whether playing something will result expensive bill for repair or buying new tubes and go though all sorts of calibration processes.
I have this old Japanese combo that I bought on a flee market. Anything that goes into it, becomes crunched and distorted in the most marvelous way. Used that alot for noise/industrial recordings. In Forza Albino we used to have(well still have, but we've blown it) this old Italian PA with a built in Tape echo, that unit more or less defined the whole sound of the band. Next 12" will be the first recording not done on it. Peavey has some pretty stella cobos that both blast and compress neatly. Also Roland Jazz Chorus is a classic, a old favorite of TG.
I def agree on the bigger/better thing not always being true. Always hated noise gigs done on Marshall amps. Makes the sound so hollow and one dimensional. Always quite often material rehersed in small room on combo amp takes quite different and not always better form being blasted thru large PA.
I have Peavey Combo 300 transistor bass amp from late 80's. Build like tank and very loud.
My luck is having probably the best guitar shop in the whole of the UK South East in the town where I work. What's even better is that it hasn't employed a bunch of snobs so even a non guitar playing pleb like myself is welcomed there. After much scene talk about the superiority of amps I decided to buy a small one to experiment with. I explained my purpose and that I had £100 to spend. On their recommendation I walked away with a slightly dearer Vox AC4TV Mini tube amp. One obvious benefit with a little amp is the ability to floor it and not lift the roof off the house. In other words getting the joy of that great sounding overdrive without killing the neighbours. I used it entirely for the Filth & Violence/Untergeschoss 7" and the results were satisfactory. Certainly raw as hell in a way that only an amp can be. The downside is a severe loss of low end. I'll continue using it but not exclusively. I'm not amp junkie. No analog snob either. And I never understood the moaning over line in. All are useful tools in the arsenal of sonics.
We use two old 50w HH bass combos,4 track/synths/lap tops go through them, a nice warm but crunchy sound. Vocals go through a WEM Dominator guitar combo.
No other reason then i have a irrational dislike of musical equipment made after 1989. (and they didnt cost much.)
At home I have a very cheap little Peavy vampyr amp.
In studio I use different amps mostly marshall for guitars and different sizes of peavy amps for bass.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on January 21, 2014, 10:39:34 PM
The downside is a severe loss of low end. I'll continue using it but not exclusively. I'm not amp junkie. No analog snob either. And I never understood the moaning over line in. All are useful tools in the arsenal of sonics.
Of course, when someone needs something what amplified sound can't produce, it would be foolish to not use method that allows such thing. Like utmost bass frequency with clarity. Not just almost random rumble of speaker.
But certainly moaning over line in is simply because for a lot of recordings, it appears to be result of laziness most of all. I mean, that someone think downloading software synth application and using some plugin distortion (or driving signal via pedal to recorder) would create something that could be compared to means what required not only much higher amount of effort, but includes much greater amount of variables.
You know, plugging in korg ms-10 to recorder. It may be fine. Plugging it into speaker and capturing sound of room, includes dozens of elements what make the sound unique. Amplifier type. Microphone type. Amplifier volume. Microphone distance and angle to speaker. Depending on distance, how room acoustics react on sound. Natural echoes, resonance, etc.
Of course all sorts of variation can be generated by adding effects. But this is the crucial thing: If one likes to hear sound that appears loud, regardless of volume you play it on stereos, I think that it most often can be achieved by capturing loud situation.
Signal that comes from some gadget, though line to recorder, may be distorted, may be thick and heavy, but very often doesn't sound
LOUD. It will be loud if you play it loud, but something what was recording of loud situation, where even electronics have physical appearance, will sound loud even if you listen at low volume.
I have in recent months done both. 100% line-in recordings, 100% amplifier recordings. And mixtures of these. Analogue, digital, line and overdubbed. All these have different benefits. True amplified sound what really happens in some physical space, can't be really imitated with distortion and reverb. Many vocal sounds of modern power electronics appear often mathematical. One steady digital delay, artificial reverb (Often guilty for this myself too.. heh). What appears like glued on top, instead of REALLY blending in. When properly amplified, even the very same effects are starting to blend into mix of sounds.
I think using amps is not another way to be "more filthy", but attempt to have more interesting sounds. It's like difference in recording real guitars in rock'n'roll or recording line-in electric guitar and then driving it through amps later in studio (or worst, just some distortion plugin). You miss the interaction of instrument and amplifier. How sustain behaves, how slowly emerging feedback effect the tone or harmony of sound. Even in case when sound is pretty clean and pure.
If one would want to make loud noise, then I think best method is to make... ehm.. loud noise! If one wants to keep it smooth, extremely deep low frequencies, "cinematic" with clean stereo bass sound, very high fidelity quiet sounds, etc etc. Then certainly amps may be wrong thing. (Instead tube-pre amp may be thing that works out well.)
I personally feel that there is lack of physically LOUD noise. Something that is not just crackling pedals or tapeloops distorted by 4-tracker gain (nothing wrong with these), but things caught in ear annihilating physical experience. And most of all that someone had ability to capture such moment. Often loud sessions recorded badly, will sound thin distant racket.
I'd probably get a nice bass combo if I had a vehicle, for now on the occasions I use an amp I make do with this sort of thing. :D
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/250417_10150249439558659_3141924_n.jpg)
I use a 30w Crate guitar amp. Speaker is probably 6". I run it out of the headphone jack of my 4-track as the monitor. The MS-10, contact mic, etc. go into efx then into a mixer channel then the 4-track. I only have one mic & it's not that great so I have never mic'd the amp.
It'd be nice to have some decent monitors. If I had the space, I'd definitely try mic'ing the amp/room.
Quote from: Cementimental on January 22, 2014, 07:06:49 PM
I'd probably get a nice bass combo if I had a vehicle, for now on the occasions I use an amp I make do with this sort of thing. :D
How it compares to "big amps"? I used to do things also by connecting 4-track to small boom-box. You could get ultra high pitched microphone feedback easily, and volume would always remain very moderate. But sound would be kind of tinny and.. hmm.. clean. Hard to explain, but you instantly get impression of something very very
small. I think the same has been when people use small speaker elements on table to create feedback for harsh noise. It's nearly as high pitched and "cold" as internal mixer feedback. Different from decent sized amp feedback.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on January 22, 2014, 06:08:27 PM
But certainly moaning over line in is simply because for a lot of recordings, it appears to be result of laziness most of all. I mean, that someone think downloading software synth application and using some plugin distortion (or driving signal via pedal to recorder) would create something that could be compared to means what required not only much higher amount of effort, but includes much greater amount of variables.
Well I don't know... I have spent hours and hours trying to get good sound out of software synths and virtual amplifiers but it is just easier way to just plug-in the sound source to the amp and record it with mic.
Of course, but this comment meant most of all circumstances.
Many people don't have more than small apartment in use. It's easy to settle on this restriction by doing line-in, software, pedal, electronic based stuff -- compared to effort of having to drag your gear somewhere. Be it studio, someones rehearsal place or such. I know this, for living in such situation for years. Not being able to do full-on shouting vocals. And there were moments when I visited someone elses rehearsal place to do vocal tracks or hammer metal junk. But also compromises of just being little bit too lazy, little bit too much lured to stay in comfort-zone, because material was "good enough". But it could have been better. And if there was someone back then to advice me that putting effort in noise can be worth it, I'd be now thankful.
(Same as someone should have told back in late 90's and early 2000's how shitty photoshop effects look in album covers, hah. That it can be fast, easy and handy, but might be worth going a bit more work. In fact, I've been recently told to drop computer typewriter font and just use real deal. Which.. ehm I should! Guilty here as well, but learning..)
I have a Marshall valvestate combo at home. Built an isolation cabinet around it so I could rip it up in the apartment. I stick an sm57 and a Rode NT1-A in front of the speaker. Guitars sound good. But for noise the results have been poor imo. Sounds too far away, and of course, no low end. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, don't know
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on January 22, 2014, 09:05:55 PM
How it compares to "big amps"? I used to do things also by connecting 4-track to small boom-box. You could get ultra high pitched microphone feedback easily, and volume would always remain very moderate. But sound would be kind of tinny and.. hmm.. clean. Hard to explain, but you instantly get impression of something very very small. I think the same has been when people use small speaker elements on table to create feedback for harsh noise. It's nearly as high pitched and "cold" as internal mixer feedback. Different from decent sized amp feedback.
It actually sounded much better than I wanted. :D This was for my solo guitar noisecore sideproject Megadirt, it was supposed to just be the worst imaginable guitar tone but it was actually pretty nice, plus looks funny on stage. Naturally this sort of thing tends towards tinny/mid-to-high-centric but depending on how you record and EQ it you can get some 'heavy' sound/bass/rumble too... tho nothing 'clear' or accurate of course yeah. Anyway I find small speakers a good part of the process for harshness sometimes.
I actually find I can achieve my heaviest/harshest recordings just with gear + mixer, recording line-in rather than using any amps or acoustic feedback at all.
Quote from: Human Larvae on January 22, 2014, 10:20:51 PM
for noise the results have been poor imo. Sounds too far away, and of course, no low end. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, don't know
I think one way to improve sound is the use the same method as they often use for bass in recordings or stage: Take line-in sound for heavy low bass base sound, take punch and ripping power from mic'ed amp. Mix balance according to your needs? I guess some experts will warn about potential phase issues, where sound will suffer. Also if distance of sound is not a problem, recording right next to speaker element might not be the best sound? Thinking that when you hear the heavy and strong sound, you tend to be 1-5 meters from speaker? Why put mic 5-10cm from speaker then? This is something everybody learns to do, including myself. It's been struggle to move away from idea of settling for mere close-up mic. I recall friend telling guys like Steve Albini would put mics.. 1 meter distance in front of speaker?
I guess close up method is often for sake of avoiding sounds bleeding from microphone to another in band settings? If part of the sound is created by acoustics of amlifier-cabinet and room where amp is located, it seems little strange to record only central of speaker element. Even in that, moving microphone just a notch to other place may change sound about 100%. Tricky business to get something "right", but I think that's part of the charm what adds to personality of sound. Once you succeed, then time might be another ordeal of good volume, tone settings and microphone placement right...
Crate kx160 here since 97
Very good topic at the right moment.
Mainly I was using - nice and bassy Hartke vx410 + HA2500 head, VOX AD50VT guitar amp and Wharfedale SVP-15P monitors. After years and overloads of sound because "the louder the better to rehearse in" Wharfedale monitors went silent and, well, RIP. I'm still thinking whether there is a need for monitors or no, but it seems just like a rather expensive addition to equipment if playing just noise.
I've always used the same rig, two Ampeg 8x10's a SVT-4pro and an old beat up acoustic head, mic'd with shure sm57's. I'd like to add a decent condenser mic into their too at some point if I get to recording again.
good topic. i use a broken 2x12" combo amp. one of the 12" speakers is missing. input is broken so i have to plug the cable half way/quarter of the way in to get loud sound. i wouldnt have it any other way. if i record using it ill use the shitty built in mic from my digirecorder or a crank microphone.
currently searching for my first amp. the big question seems to be: how important is wattage? does anyone here have an opinion on how wattage can affect the volume or frequency range?
I recently bought a randall high gain combo for guitar, recording some metal junk with contact mics and
pedals, using a shure sm57, but at the moment i have a lot of difficulties to find a decent sound.
Not loud neither thick.
Probably i have to adjust something.
Quote from: Stipsi on December 04, 2017, 06:44:54 PM
I recently bought a randall high gain combo for guitar, recording some metal junk with contact mics and
pedals, using a shure sm57, but at the moment i have a lot of difficulties to find a decent sound.
Not loud neither thick.
Probably i have to adjust something.
Try different mic placements, the mic facing directly to the centre of the speaker will make things brighter, just off centre will give it more body, ideally set up two mics in these positions and mix the two results (watch for phase inversion, very easy to fix if recording digitally), also try one mic close to the speaker and one pulled back some distance to capture different sounds.
For junk metal i've had the best luck recording it once, then reamping it again clean and loud and recording that. If you have impedance with reamping run your signal through a cheap mixer before it goes into the amp. Too much gain and volume on junk metal can render it very blurry, which may or may not be what you're going for.
I need a smallish practice amp with a true spring reverb, hoping those who play guitar could help with recommendations. All but one music shop in my area closed down so I can't really mess with stuff in person as I'd prefer.