Occult & esoteric books/magazines.. organisations. Perhaps also something which includes certain "cultural"/"mystic". Lets say, Aorta booklets for example.
Ixaxaar in general, is best place in Finland, and very recommended for world wide attention as well. Majority of their output is in English. Most of their titles are or have been distributed by myself as well. Their distribution covers Traditional Witchcraft, Occult Literature, Occult Journals, Ceremonial Magick, Satanism, Esoteric Literature, Ritual Music,... Always high quality releases. Sold out old releases includes works connected to Order of Nine Angles, Temple Ov Blood, Azazelin Tähti, etc.. http://www.ixaxaar.com/
Azazelin Tähti (a.k.a. Star of Azazel) society of satanic theosophy. Several publications, I think all in Finnish. Some info: http://www.azazel.fi/english.shtml
My own personal stand point is most often very much (even too much?) of practical. If ideology or religion offers nothing concrete benefit, it has no value. In seek of knowledge and enlightenment, dragging of too many dogmas or limitation works against the goal. As would focusing on superficially cool, yet spiritually/ideologically empty content.
Primordia
http://www.libreriaprimordia.it/Cataloghi/Edizioni_Primordia.pdf
They used to run a hefty fanzine/magazine, in which they published a lot of lesser known Crowley and Spare's literary, esoteric and artistic outputs - at the moment, they run a bookstore in Milan.
Roberto Migliussi
http://www.shadowtarot.net/italiano/roberto_migliusi.htm
http://www.labirintostellare.org/GALLERIES/migliussi/index2.htm
which published in Italy some of the best (private) editions of Austin Osman Spare's books, focusing a lot also on the artistic side of the British Magician
I've had a passing interest in the concept of Gnostic Satanism or Anti-Cosmic Satanism, since it seems to relate to the idea of the universe coming from chaos, that is, matter coming from energy, which is pretty close to some theories of how the universe began and is forming.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on July 01, 2010, 07:59:00 AM
I've had a passing interest in the concept of Gnostic Satanism or Anti-Cosmic Satanism, since it seems to relate to the idea of the universe coming from chaos, that is, matter coming from energy, which is pretty close to some theories of how the universe began and is forming.
I think the Chaos Gnostic Genesis does not correlate with the cosmological understanding of cosmic birth. For example, if matter was born from pure energy (even though matter itself can be viewed as energy too (mass is energy, movement is energy etc. which are both properties of matter)) there had to be the so called laws of nature present, the reason being that energy appears to work mechanically under the laws of nature as well. The Anti-Cosmic Satanistic view on the primal Chaos tells us that Chaos is lawless, so I don't see it working that way. (I hope you got my point, I'm not so good expressing myself with words.)
I'm personally more fond of the abstract kind of philosophies when it comes to occultism and esoteric topics, because religions and other not natural scientific explanations seem to always lose when it comes to understanding the physical macrocosmos.
I don't think Mc Intosh perhaps meant it is the same. Gnostic beliefs obviously include elements, which is not all about "natural science". Add demiurge to picture and laws of nature lose it's importance.
I've been a practicing Thelemite for going on 10 years. I am a member of both the T.O.T. (no, not the O.T.O. completely different Orders) for 3 years and the A.'.A.'. (I can't lay claim to my grade nor can I say anything about how long I have been there) and I was a member of the Golden Dawn for a year and made it to 4=7 but it just wasn't for me. Some magazines that I read are the Black Pearl, The Equinox (of course!) and In the Continium.
QuoteGnostic beliefs obviously include elements, which is not all about "natural science". Add demiurge to picture and laws of nature lose it's importance.
Yes, but that was later, after it was well-established in Judaism. In other words, it was derivative. In my humble opinion, it is best to take all creation myths NOT at face value and NOT with a grain of salt, but to analyze them and scrutinize them intensely.
Quote from: Unheard on June 30, 2010, 08:36:40 PM
Primordia
http://www.libreriaprimordia.it/Cataloghi/Edizioni_Primordia.pdf
They used to run a hefty fanzine/magazine, in which they published a lot of lesser known Crowley and Spare's literary, esoteric and artistic outputs - at the moment, they run a bookstore in Milan.
all hails to them, the reprinted and translated lots of obscure stuff from Satanism, Celtic tradition to shitload of amusing voudou/santieria stuff.
The shop looks like a new age one with plenty of mother earth brick-a-brack, then you turn on the left and hells break loose ;)
Dario spada is a nice fellow.
By the way. Best books on the subject - Ur Group - "Introduction to magic".
I've been an active member of C.O.S. around 15-17 years ago. I quickly lost any kind of interest for them and all the crap around that group. I've also been an active odinist during many years as a member of Heathen Front, managing the canadian chapter (only the french/Quebecer one later). I still have a vivid interest for occultism and religion in general. I do enjoy Karlsson, Crowley, Evola, and many other writers working on heathenism, satanism/luciferianism, shamanism/ecstatic cults (the subject of my Master degree thesis), meditation, etc.
The latest release by my (not noise or PE) band Ceramic Hobs is being released on the imprint of this small group which is somewhere between art and occult - some very interesting reading on the site - http://www.okok.org.uk/
As a young kid in the early 80s I was on the TOPY mailing list, for a long time I forgot about it all and found my teenage interest in sigil magick quite embarrassing (especially as PTV's music got so bad and TOPY became very cliched and hippy as it expanded in the late 80s). Nowadays I feel glad that I was exposed to such interesting views on life and reality at an impressionable age, along with things like the writings on Crass sleeves too.
http://www.fulgur.co.uk/
http://www.threehandspress.com/
http://www.avaloniabooks.co.uk/
http://www.mandrake.uk.net/
http://www.scarletimprint.com/
http://www.bookarts.org/
http://www.crossroads.wild.net.au/silkmilk4.htm
http://hexmagazine.com/
Actually ixaxaar is distributing most of these publishers
I do hope one of these turns out to be right... just to spite people.
Few more. Some are two expensive really, some arnt!
http://dominionpress.net/
http://www.teitanpress.com/
http://www.alchemywebsite.com/bookshop/
http://www.starfirepublishing.co.uk/
http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/
http://fraternitas.de/home.htm
http://www.asbooks.co.uk/
http://www.theajnaoffensive.com/ajnabound/
http://www.kabbalahsociety.org/
http://www.wykehampress.com/uk/index.php
Think i have blogged this enough now there must have been hundreds of pagan/occult zines out there.
The sold out Magnus Opus series i still available at amazon. The Halevi books were originally put out by weiser. Are usally easy to find.
The best books from Scarlet Imprint..
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xfc3o4DiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The true grimoire
cult book of goetia art
(http://thelemicmagick.com/TRG3.jpg)
The Red Goddes
must have of sexual magic.
(http://scarletimprint.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/voudongnosis_cover_lg.jpg)
sold out from Scarlet imprint
a little bit expansive now from ebay
http://cgi.ebay.it/Voudon-Gnosis-Bertiaux-Kenneth-Grant-Voodoo-Signed-/200504129534?pt=Antiquarian_Collectible
Anyone into runes ?
Quote from: halthan on August 15, 2010, 09:42:52 AM
Anyone into runes ?
I've studied them, but still an initiate, for sure. I've read several of Stephen Flowers' (Edred Thorsson) books, with several more to go. Lots of good sites around, but some I frequent:
http://www.runaraven.com/
http://runegild.org/
http://www.woodharrow.com/
Quote from: Plague Haus on August 24, 2010, 08:27:34 PM
Quote from: halthan on August 15, 2010, 09:42:52 AM
Anyone into runes ?
I've studied them, but still an initiate, for sure. I've read several of Stephen Flowers' (Edred Thorsson) books, with several more to go. Lots of good sites around, but some I frequent:
http://www.runaraven.com/
http://runegild.org/
http://www.woodharrow.com/
My mum have adopted a rune stone together with a friend. I think it is nice that two ladies in their seventies go out into the woods and clean a rune stone a couple of times each year.
QuoteAnyone into runes ?
I'd recommend Guido von List. He has some really interesting books.
I am highly interested in the life and works of Aleister Crowley, Kenneth Grant,
also the writings of the Temple of Black Light are interesting to read, and in reference to the anti-cosmic/gnostic satanism also heavily influenced lyrics of black metal band Dissection.
A good stockist of new and used occult books are
http://www.weiserantiquarian.com/cgi-bin/wab455/index.html
Quote from: SafeWord on April 30, 2011, 09:30:19 AM
I am highly interested in the life and works of Aleister Crowley, Kenneth Grant,
also the writings of the Temple of Black Light are interesting to read, and in reference to the anti-cosmic/gnostic satanism also heavily influenced lyrics of black metal band Dissection.
No offense intended, but when I first happened across the website for The Temple of the Black Light a couple of years ago I thought it was strictly an exercise in graphic design; most of the imagery there is very well executed. But when after beginning some reading of their online text I realized the ToBL was actually supposed to be "serious", I couldn't help but laugh a little. From everything I've seen of the outfit it strikes me as a terrible mishmash of any and all quasi-Satanic themes and ancient, random, unrelated mythology, glommed on to by a bunch of immature "kids", in an effort to concoct the most GRIMM, KVLT, SINISTER online fantasy they could come up with. I don't follow the contemporary Satanic zeitgeist closely, but even so I'm still a little surprised at how much attention and support this whole "Current 218", "Anti-Cosmic Satanism", "Azerate" jazz has garnered. To some extent the internet phenomenon reminds me slightly of all the O.N.A. posers and bandwagoneers.
And still, something even worse I've glanced at online has to be the "Cult of Cthulhu":
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/
What I remembered from the TotBL website, the stuff that they had available (rituals and invocations etc), it felt like... metal. All the demons and evil gods you can imagine, all suggestive and monolithic imagery, everything cried out EXTREME METAL AESTHETICS MADE CULT. It appeals to the same aspects of the sensation of the numinous as does occult black/death metal when you're a kid. And most of the people I've encountered who are into the 218 current thing, come from the extreme metal underground.
http://www.templeoftheblacklight.net/library/invocations.html - "...to offer 'poetic' and codified discourses concerning some of the different aspects of the Divinities of the Black Light..."
http://www.templeoftheblacklight.net/library/invocations/invocation_of_the_nameless_one.html
But since I'm an outsider, and a pretty atheistic one, it's natural that I don't get it. If it works for them, good, despite all the black metal connections and trends I'm sure they don't approve of less than extremely serious practitioners.
Quote from: Litharge on April 30, 2011, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: SafeWord on April 30, 2011, 09:30:19 AM
I am highly interested in the life and works of Aleister Crowley, Kenneth Grant,
also the writings of the Temple of Black Light are interesting to read, and in reference to the anti-cosmic/gnostic satanism also heavily influenced lyrics of black metal band Dissection.
No offense intended, but when I first happened across the website for The Temple of the Black Light a couple of years ago I thought it was strictly an exercise in graphic design; most of the imagery there is very well executed. But when after beginning some reading of their online text I realized the ToBL was actually supposed to be "serious", I couldn't help but laugh a little. From everything I've seen of the outfit it strikes me as a terrible mishmash of any and all quasi-Satanic themes and ancient, random, unrelated mythology, glommed on to by a bunch of immature "kids", in an effort to concoct the most GRIMM, KVLT, SINISTER online fantasy they could come up with. I don't follow the contemporary Satanic zeitgeist closely, but even so I'm still a little surprised at how much attention and support this whole "Current 218", "Anti-Cosmic Satanism", "Azerate" jazz has garnered. To some extent the internet phenomenon reminds me slightly of all the O.N.A. posers and bandwagoneers.
And still, something even worse I've glanced at online has to be the "Cult of Cthulhu":
http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/
No offense taken, your words are very familiar to what others have said in online forums. It is hard to take their work seriously, it has some interesting ideas, but i think falls short with being too eclectic and like you mentioned just trying to be dark as possible. There book Liber Falxifer which is sold through Ixaxaar seems to be more on the money and is interesting from a scholary point of view but the suggested rituals, because it is in essence a grimiore, come off sily again. TOBL are supporters of the ONA and its writings so there is certainly influence there. Funny enough though, that the supposed creator of the ONA converted to Islam.
Quote from: pestdemon on April 30, 2011, 01:00:05 PM
What I remembered from the TotBL website, the stuff that they had available (rituals and invocations etc), it felt like... metal. All the demons and evil gods you can imagine, all suggestive and monolithic imagery, everything cried out EXTREME METAL AESTHETICS MADE CULT. It appeals to the same aspects of the sensation of the numinous as does occult black/death metal when you're a kid. And most of the people I've encountered who are into the 218 current thing, come from the extreme metal underground.
http://www.templeoftheblacklight.net/library/invocations.html - "...to offer 'poetic' and codified discourses concerning some of the different aspects of the Divinities of the Black Light..."
http://www.templeoftheblacklight.net/library/invocations/invocation_of_the_nameless_one.html
But since I'm an outsider, and a pretty atheistic one, it's natural that I don't get it. If it works for them, good, despite all the black metal connections and trends I'm sure they don't approve of less than extremely serious practitioners.
good point, from my understanding i have a strong feeling that the order was created within a metal community and alot of its originating members eg Jon from Dissection was part of the Misanthropic Luciferian Order which has become the TOBL
Quote from: SafeWord on April 30, 2011, 01:05:51 PMFunny enough though, that the supposed creator of the ONA converted to Islam.
But as pointed out by people over and over again, his reasoning is well enough documented in his own words, right?
The original ONA life of hermit / shadow person outside society isn't necessarily giving that much possibilities to operate right now. Even less than C18 or NSM.
QuoteWhat the neo-Nazi fanatic did next: switched to Islam
Two faces, two converts - two Muslim extremists in Britain
By Nicola Woolcock and Dominic Kennedy
A NEO-NAZI whose ideas were said to be the inspiration for the man who let off a nail bomb in Central London in 1999 has converted to an extremist form of Islam.
David Myatt, a founder of the hardline British National Socialist Movement (NSM) who has been jailed for racist attacks, has changed his name to Abdul Aziz ibn Myatt. David Copeland, who is serving six life sentences after three people died in his Soho bomb attacks, was a member of the NSM.
Myatt is reportedly the author of a fascist terrorist handbook and a former leader of the violent far-right group Combat 18. But now — in his mid-50s and sporting a red, bushy beard — he subscribes to radical Islamist views.
In an internet essay entitled From Neo-Nazi to Muslim, Myatt asks: "How was it that I, a Westerner with a history of over 25 years of political involvement in extreme right-wing organisations, a former leader of the political wing of the neo-Nazi group Combat 18, came to be standing outside a mosque with a sincere desire to go inside and convert to Islam? "These were the people who I had been fighting on the streets, I had swore (sic) at and had used violence against — indeed, one of my terms of imprisonment was a result of me leading a gang of skinheads in a fight against 'Pakis'."
In a later interview, Myatt supports the killing of any Muslim who breaks his oath of loyalty to Islam, and the setting up of a Muslim superstate. He describes himself as having been "staunchly opposed to non-white immigration into Britain and twice jailed for violence in pursuit of my political aims".
He added: "I spent several decades of my life fighting for what I regarded as my people, my race and my nation, and endured two terms of imprisonment arising out of my political activities."
But his belief is now that: "The pure authentic Islam of the revival, which recognises practical jihad (holy war) as a duty, is the only force that is capable of fighting and destroying the dishonour, the arrogance, the materialism of the West . . . For the West, nothing is sacred, except perhaps Zionists, Zionism, the hoax of the so-called Holocaust, and the idols which the West and its lackeys worship, or pretend to worship, such as democracy.
"They want, and demand, that we abandon the purity of authentic Islam and either bow down before them and their idols, or accept the tame, secularised, so-called Islam which they and their apostate lackeys have created.
"This may well be a long war, of decades or more — and we Muslims have to plan accordingly. We must affirm practical jihad — to take part in the fight to free our lands from the kuffar (unbelievers). Jihad is our duty."
Myatt, who briefly became a monk after his second spell in prison, said that he became a Muslim while working long hours alone on a farm. He grew up in Africa, moved to Britain in 1967 and spent time living in Worcestershire. In July 2000 Searchlight, the anti-fascist magazine, described him as "the most ideologically-driven Nazi in Britain, preaching race war and terrorism".
Myatt was the architect of the NSM and was involved in the leadership of Combat 18. He issued a statement in response to the Soho nail bombings saying: "Neither myself nor anyone else connected to the NSM can be held responsible for these bombs in any way. That responsibility lies with the person who constructed them, planted them and caused them to explode. Only that person, and God, know the motive behind the attacks."
Myatt said that "all bombs are terrible and barbaric", whether detonated by lone bombers, Western governments in Iraq or Zionists in Palestine.
"The NSM considered the creation of a revolutionary situation in this country as necessary since it wished to build an entirely new society, based upon personal honour, and believed this could only be done by destroying the dishonourable and corrupt society of the present.
"However, the NSM neither preached, nor sought to incite, what is called 'racial hatred'. Instead, it strove to propagate the warrior values of honour, loyalty and duty, and make the British people aware of, and come to value, their ancestral warrior culture and warrior heritage."
Myatt said recently that he had given up hope of a breakthrough by the far Right and believed that Muslims were the best hope for combating Zionism and the West. "There will not be an uprising, a revolution, in any Western nation, by nationalists, racial nationalists, or National Socialists — because these people lack the desire, the motivation, the ethos, to do this and because they do not have the support of even a large minority of their own folk," he said.
"If these nationalists, or some of them, desire to aid us, to help us . . . they can do the right thing, the honourable thing, and convert, revert, to Islam — accepting the superiority of Islam over and above each and every way of the West."
When you read his statements, it's easy to see which are among his consistent motivations and when he simply changes tools/tactics necessary to gain what he wants to?
Many of these matters, are still results of pen works of eccentric artists, most of all. Not necessary philosopher, not necessary theologist, etc. but really more of eccentric artists going through internal studies and observations. Does it make it less? ...or more?
well, apparently he wasn't the only one changing attitudes.
by the way, in Europe several big names of the radical right turned to Islam without abandoning their ideas.
Thin about Sigrid Hunke's "The Sun of Allah Shines over the West", the work of Claudio Mutti from Edizioni del Veltro, or the antisemitic/revisionist group Radio Islam, etc.
There are many examples.
Although I quite peculiar shifting from radical christianity, to self styled satanism with flying saucers attached and then returning to base with Islam.
Thing is how credible is a group that claim to advocate political culling, and at the same time spreading their documents amongst uninitiated as they used to do in the 90's when that stuff was easily available from archives like Baelder, etc.?
I do not discuss their "theology" (sic)behind it, but the boasting of certain practices with one feet in politics raise many questions, especially regarding how disorganized is law enforcement in UK.
Something like this in Italy or Germany would have been shut down in no time.
Occult history is filled with practicers who switch currents, idealogies, worship of different gods. Crowley went through a number of religious shifts that even he admits contradicted each other, chaos magick promotes the idea of the paradigm shift and does not withold the magician to one particular doctrine, these ideas especially make sense in terms of comparative religion, all achieving spiritual enlightement whethet you follow a left, middle or right hand path.
yes but I am thinking about the disastrous effects they leave on plant earth sometime while seeking for such enlightement.
Evolution/growth is quintessential in a human being, especially when walking difficilt paths.
Evola himself started from Dada and shifted into always more complex subjects.
QuoteThis is what I propose for those who are committed to making super-efforts in order to achieve an extraordinary life. Email me to set up a free consultation, and we'll see if you could benefit from the Venger Satanis Motivational Life Coaching program. ::: Venger.Satanis at yahoo.com
By the way, If you don't already have your free PDF of Cthulhu Cult, book I of our bible, then please ask me for it. Book II, Liber A:O, can be found right here on the website.
* Three hour-long or six half-hour sessions @ $100
* Seven hour-long or fourteen half-hour sessions @ $200
* Group seminar rates are based on availability, duration, accommodation, and travel expenses.
* Comprehensive, hands-on nine week e-course workshops focusing on the following subjects: the Fourth Way, Viridian Sorcery, and Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos. E-courses will be starting on May 1st @ $75 per subject. Sign up ASAP because space is limited to 7 people per "classroom".
lovely
Quote from: tisbor on May 02, 2011, 10:35:44 AM
QuoteThis is what I propose for those who are committed to making super-efforts in order to achieve an extraordinary life. Email me to set up a free consultation, and we'll see if you could benefit from the Venger Satanis Motivational Life Coaching program. ::: Venger.Satanis at yahoo.com
By the way, If you don't already have your free PDF of Cthulhu Cult, book I of our bible, then please ask me for it. Book II, Liber A:O, can be found right here on the website.
* Three hour-long or six half-hour sessions @ $100
* Seven hour-long or fourteen half-hour sessions @ $200
* Group seminar rates are based on availability, duration, accommodation, and travel expenses.
* Comprehensive, hands-on nine week e-course workshops focusing on the following subjects: the Fourth Way, Viridian Sorcery, and Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos. E-courses will be starting on May 1st @ $75 per subject. Sign up ASAP because space is limited to 7 people per "classroom".
lovely
if anyone is daft enough to send money for online occult classes then there obviously deluded...........
Quote from: tiny_tove on May 01, 2011, 10:19:10 PMby the way, in Europe several big names of the radical right turned to Islam without abandoning their ideas.
But is this surprising, or just a continuation of how things have been since WWII? Islamism and nazism have never had much problem co-existing. Think of how the grand Mufti of Jerusalem admired Hitler, and vice versa. Think of how many German officers who made their escape to Egypt after the war, Nasser had no major problems with them, and some of them converted to islam. Think of the Muslim division of the SS -- the Handschar Division ~
(http://www.patriot.dk/handschar.jpg)
And well, today you can still see a lot of examples of people going from nazism to islamism, and it's easy to see the common ground they have.
EDIT -- so my 88th post is the one with the nazi pic. How fitting! :)
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on April 30, 2011, 03:24:22 PM
When you read his statements, it's easy to see which are among his consistent motivations and when he simply changes tools/tactics necessary to gain what he wants to?
Many of these matters, are still results of pen works of eccentric artists, most of all. Not necessary philosopher, not necessary theologist, etc. but really more of eccentric artists going through internal studies and observations. Does it make it less? ...or more?
Isn't this all pretty hypocritical thou? Abusing religion to forcefully revive virtues in society? Islam won't change western civilisation no matter how hard they try. Which bandwagon will he jump on then?
Hypocritical how? I mean, I wouldn't personally give slightest "support" for Islam, whether it works for the "cause" or not.
But his logic is clear and very simple. Aim is pretty much the same. When thinking of spending all your life within "organizations" of 1-10 people making mess, I guess islam could be seen as force what has much more potential. If not immediately, still most certainly just about only religion in world left with necessary hostility and commitments AND internal global support within group of people it relates to.
In moment when someone knows that nothing is going to make difference, is the point when values start to matter. If it would be easy and simple, it wouldn't need conviction. In this field we talk about, "occult & esoteric", so much is wasted on the idea of quick achievements. As if reading a book, signing up on online study group or getting some "points" when advancing on "levels" would mean much, when motivations are most of all impure. Path that's the hamburger route, just isn't going to lead anywhere. What would be the hidden information you gain with reading couple PDF's linked in occult blog? Perhaps inspiring on some level, of course, but still very little compared to journey.
hypocritical in the sense that his motivations for converting to Islam are impure. It doesn't sound like he is in it for the god, but because he has a more motivated team with him. In my eyes he is taking the hamburger route. When in ten years he sees that all the terror they have caused hasn't brought any success he may move to the next team that looks promising. Will he have learnt anything from the Islam or even grasped it's essence? Probably not. For it is nothing but a tool. And I'm sure that counts for most of the other extremists. It's like a musician jumping in and out of bands, depending on how much success he thinks they will have. In that case, it's not about the music.
You are right, the journey is most likely to bring you the most self knowledge, but for that one should obviously stick to it. I just find it questionable when someone jumps from one extreme to the other. Gives me the impression that he is lost in general.
Mankind has brought forth so many religions, all proclaiming to be the only truth, preaching virtue and yet still, the world is in such a poor state. The only positive thing I found in Satanism was that contrary to most other religions it permits sin while still preaching a path of respectful coexistence.
I would also like to add that Myatts writings in the ONA preached strict practice and treating all non believers and "mundanes" as the enemy and to not associate with them in any way, shape or form. How does converting to one of these "mundanes" make Myatt look. I think its fine for him to convert but why break his own rules?
Put most simply, for some people or groups, the end justifies the means, and so "hypocrisy" does not factor in to their amoral, relativistic strategies and tactics. Using islam as a tool for whatever screwy goal one might have may seem unsavory to some (including myself), but if the individual discarding the old tools as the supposedly better and more effective ones become available (such as ditching fringe Satanism for radical islam) sees no contradiction within their own sets of values and principles, ultimately that's all that really matters to the individual.
And realistically, if one genuinely wishes to effect actual change on a national, or geopolitical scale, then islamic terrorism would certainly be more effective than "extreme satanism."
Quote from: SafeWord on May 05, 2011, 03:35:01 AM
I would also like to add that Myatts writings in the ONA preached strict practice and treating all non believers and "mundanes" as the enemy and to not associate with them in any way, shape or form. How does converting to one of these "mundanes" make Myatt look. I think its fine for him to convert but why break his own rules?
"Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law"...
Quote from: Litharge on May 05, 2011, 03:54:45 AM
Quote from: SafeWord on May 05, 2011, 03:35:01 AM
I would also like to add that Myatts writings in the ONA preached strict practice and treating all non believers and "mundanes" as the enemy and to not associate with them in any way, shape or form. How does converting to one of these "mundanes" make Myatt look. I think its fine for him to convert but why break his own rules?
"Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law"...
A good thought! Maybe Myatt gained contact with his Holy Gaurdian Angel which told him converting to Islam would be The Great Work.
Quote from: SafeWord on May 05, 2011, 04:45:23 AMA good thought! Maybe Myatt gained contact with his Holy Gaurdian Angel which told him converting to Islam would be The Great Work.
HA! At this point I wouldn't put such claims past Mr. Sinister Celebrity. Thelema, or perhaps radical Mormonism used to bring about a new aeon, or the collapse of mundane civilization, or increased dole for unemployed authors, or whatever it is ONA types are pursuing these days...
"Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law"...
[/quote]
a catchy phrase, yes. But even Satanism has a few more laws that restrict this freedom. Or does this stand above everything else?
Quote from: Human Larvae on May 05, 2011, 10:51:28 AMa catchy phrase, yes. But even Satanism has a few more laws that restrict this freedom. Or does this stand above everything else?
Since there are seemingly countless strains of Satanism at present, I'd say there are any number of varieties that would place perhaps-superficial interpretations of Crowley or Nietzsche ("Do what thou wilt...", "Beyond good and evil...") above the dictates of self-restraint demanded by other styles of Satanism.
Quote from: Human Larvae on May 05, 2011, 12:46:19 AM
hypocritical in the sense that his motivations for converting to Islam are impure. It doesn't sound like he is in it for the god, but because he has a more motivated team with him. In my eyes he is taking the hamburger route. When in ten years he sees that all the terror they have caused hasn't brought any success he may move to the next team that looks promising. Will he have learnt anything from the Islam or even grasped it's essence? Probably not. For it is nothing but a tool. And I'm sure that counts for most of the other extremists. It's like a musician jumping in and out of bands, depending on how much success he thinks they will have. In that case, it's not about the music.
You are right, the journey is most likely to bring you the most self knowledge, but for that one should obviously stick to it. I just find it questionable when someone jumps from one extreme to the other. Gives me the impression that he is lost in general.
Mankind has brought forth so many religions, all proclaiming to be the only truth, preaching virtue and yet still, the world is in such a poor state. The only positive thing I found in Satanism was that contrary to most other religions it permits sin while still preaching a path of respectful coexistence.
This is true,... but only to the point, when we realize, that we can't really know what is his true faith? All we can do, is to see how he has followed his ideas against the stream for decades. With very little of "gain" other than what he feels is right?
A lot of faith, is simply based on what it can offer. Practical - just like the offerings of political islam.
I've seen few enlightements* happen. And they don't necessarily make sense. The people stay pretty much the same, they act pretty much the same, but necessity of getting "something", is there. And their sincerity in matters of faith I wouldn't question, as much as I could perhaps question their overall sanity, heh...
When one has the yearning and seeking something, and the divine answers, he can most certainly feel that all the nonsense spent before was just necessary route to find the correct way. Or that his aims and ideas, being always the same, yet clouded wrong "title".
This can be seen in many of the things. When people vaguely go for "satanism" or something like that, but in the end, their actual real calling all this time has been the liberal democracy. All the "anti-god", "burn churches" and such visions eventually reveal to be just the calling to criticize the "injustice" of conservative and irrational religion dominating their lives of oh so important free individuals?
I have often said it, but I do think there is severe lack of knowing, what exactly is wrong with things that are considered to be "bad" by the "transgressive" underground people. Where simple things like, why exactly would christianity be bad, remains often unasked? Why thelema would be good? Why islam would be shitty, and why maybe buddhist may rule? Bombarding of certain ideas makes it unnecessary to even ask oneself why to think this way. Conditioned responses of certain type of peer pressure. And at the most amusing case, it leads to situation, where "anti-christians" are the ones who share the ideals about 99% same as "christians". Simply feel more comfortable to categorize their ideals under other name, while having pretty much the same agendas.
This would be good question ask in case: Why should I study occult & esoteric? What it would give to me? If I know sentence like "do what thou wilt", what does it mean to me, if I can't even understand the concept of The True Will, or if I do understand, but don't believe in it? etc...
(edit * meaning, previously "regular bloke" turning into die-hard christians)
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 05, 2011, 10:14:06 PMI've seen few enlightements* happen. And they don't necessarily make sense. The people stay pretty much the same, they act pretty much the same, but necessity of getting "something", is there. And their sincerity in matters of faith I wouldn't question, as much as I could perhaps question their overall sanity, heh...
(edit * meaning, previously "regular bloke" turning into die-hard christians)
You're fortunate not to have dealt with such a phenomenon very often: in the United States "born again" christians are far from uncommon -- take the previous president as perhaps the highest profile instance in recent years. And for many of these newly "saved", "washed in the blood of the lamb" x-ians, their conversions or re-affirmations of faith are all-too-evident, as they often yap about it whenever possible (frequently under the thinnest of pretext, and when their religion is entirely irrelevant to the conversations they try to dominate), and often make their fresh righteousness conspicuous ("I'm going to church this Wednesday -- want to come?" --or-- "Well, I just don't think that's right [whatever the topic is] because I'm a christian, and in the bible it says...."
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 05, 2011, 10:14:06 PM
Quote from: Human Larvae on May 05, 2011, 12:46:19 AM
hypocritical in the sense that his motivations for converting to Islam are impure. It doesn't sound like he is in it for the god, but because he has a more motivated team with him. In my eyes he is taking the hamburger route. When in ten years he sees that all the terror they have caused hasn't brought any success he may move to the next team that looks promising. Will he have learnt anything from the Islam or even grasped it's essence? Probably not. For it is nothing but a tool. And I'm sure that counts for most of the other extremists. It's like a musician jumping in and out of bands, depending on how much success he thinks they will have. In that case, it's not about the music.
You are right, the journey is most likely to bring you the most self knowledge, but for that one should obviously stick to it. I just find it questionable when someone jumps from one extreme to the other. Gives me the impression that he is lost in general.
Mankind has brought forth so many religions, all proclaiming to be the only truth, preaching virtue and yet still, the world is in such a poor state. The only positive thing I found in Satanism was that contrary to most other religions it permits sin while still preaching a path of respectful coexistence.
This is true,... but only to the point, when we realize, that we can't really know what is his true faith? All we can do, is to see how he has followed his ideas against the stream for decades. With very little of "gain" other than what he feels is right?
A lot of faith, is simply based on what it can offer. Practical - just like the offerings of political islam.
I've seen few enlightements* happen. And they don't necessarily make sense. The people stay pretty much the same, they act pretty much the same, but necessity of getting "something", is there. And their sincerity in matters of faith I wouldn't question, as much as I could perhaps question their overall sanity, heh...
When one has the yearning and seeking something, and the divine answers, he can most certainly feel that all the nonsense spent before was just necessary route to find the correct way. Or that his aims and ideas, being always the same, yet clouded wrong "title".
This can be seen in many of the things. When people vaguely go for "satanism" or something like that, but in the end, their actual real calling all this time has been the liberal democracy. All the "anti-god", "burn churches" and such visions eventually reveal to be just the calling to criticize the "injustice" of conservative and irrational religion dominating their lives of oh so important free individuals?
I have often said it, but I do think there is severe lack of knowing, what exactly is wrong with things that are considered to be "bad" by the "transgressive" underground people. Where simple things like, why exactly would christianity be bad, remains often unasked? Why thelema would be good? Why islam would be shitty, and why maybe buddhist may rule? Bombarding of certain ideas makes it unnecessary to even ask oneself why to think this way. Conditioned responses of certain type of peer pressure. And at the most amusing case, it leads to situation, where "anti-christians" are the ones who share the ideals about 99% same as "christians". Simply feel more comfortable to categorize their ideals under other name, while having pretty much the same agendas.
This would be good question ask in case: Why should I study occult & esoteric? What it would give to me? If I know sentence like "do what thou wilt", what does it mean to me, if I can't even understand the concept of The True Will, or if I do understand, but don't believe in it? etc...
(edit * meaning, previously "regular bloke" turning into die-hard christians)
granted, you can't really judge what goes on inside of someone, you can just try judge by his actions. And yes, why exactly is Christianity bad? Because priests are fucking kids? Because of the inquisitions? Does it make the religion bad because the people fuck it up? I wouldn't think so. You could just well reject satanism because some fools performed ritualistic murders.
I would like to question if the road of self indulgence is all that rewarding? Or do I understand it wrong? Aren't things more pleasurable if they are forbidden, and don't things become mundane if you can have them 24/7? I personally have found self restriction to be quite enjoyable at times.
My personal experience with a good friend who has been going down the esotheric route and been "enlightened" was a little straining. Suddenly everything revolved around this subject. He did change his lifestyle but I personally couldn't see the point behind all of the things he started practising and it made little sense to me. But in all it did make him a happier person, so good for him.
Quote from: Human Larvae on May 07, 2011, 02:15:10 AM
And yes, why exactly is Christianity bad? Because priests are fucking kids? Because of the inquisitions? Does it make the religion bad because the people fuck it up? I wouldn't think so. You could just well reject satanism because some fools performed ritualistic murders.
I would like to question if the road of self indulgence is all that rewarding? Or do I understand it wrong? Aren't things more pleasurable if they are forbidden, and don't things become mundane if you can have them 24/7? I personally have found self restriction to be quite enjoyable at times.
As I pointed out, it appears to be tough question why exactly christianity would be bad. I wouldn't care much of questions who is fucking who, as % appears to be the same whatever faith one has.
But most certainly, judging religion would have to happen based on its consequences (humans acting under it's guidance or possibilities). It seems fact that only losing side or adversary is judged by consequences, while the dominant force or winner is judged by theoretical "good". One can simply observe this by checking out how much collective guilt is piled over person if he'd confess to be supporter of some idea. This also includes the idea where everything is judged by the foolishly by standards of few western consumerist countries and perhaps the out-dated american dream.
Self indulgence - to me - appears to be the wrong term. I'd rather talk of self awareness. Of course you can't talk of "occult & esoteric" and try to give impression as you'd be talking about one very specific thing.
Still, I'd rather train & study to be able to make conclusion, decision, be able to withdraw from chains of humanity in issues where you need to approach issues much more colder methods, be able to set yourself free from automatic conditioned responses, etc. People may seek different things. I have not much use for the quest of truth about life after death.
Many of the methods have been presented in spiritual or psychological&physical practices all over the world. Should none of it be called "occult", when often it's hardly any hidden knowledge?
This is what I often have discussed with various people into occultism. Why is the bullshit "props" so vital? Why the utmost fetishism for candles, capes, daggers, etc. When most of all, reality has been that it's purchase from some "esoteric ebay shop" for purpose of decoration. Of course it may fill some aesthetic pleasure, yet seem as unnecessary as thinking buying flag of Che from mall, would be huge step in your political life. First step would be simply "why", and then you could proceed to correct direction.
Quote from: Human Larvae on May 05, 2011, 10:51:28 AM
“Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law”…
Quote
a catchy phrase, yes. But even Satanism has a few more laws that restrict this freedom. Or does this stand above everything else?
Please do not mix Thelema with Satanism. It means find to your True Will and do nothing else, in the most simple terms. Every so called "Occult" BM or Noise groups seems to forget the other part - "Love is the Law, Love under Will." I have 11 years now of experience at being a Thelemite, anyone wants to discuss it I am open to doing so. The same goes for Ceremonial Magick in both the Western and Eastern sense.
Quote from: RyanWreck on May 10, 2011, 10:15:15 AM
Quote from: Human Larvae on May 05, 2011, 10:51:28 AM
"Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law"...
Quote
a catchy phrase, yes. But even Satanism has a few more laws that restrict this freedom. Or does this stand above everything else?
It is certainly a quote that has been mis-used in a number of contexts. Some people seemed to think it was a hedonistic statement and thought it basically said "do whatever you want" but then again I think both Crowley himself and his magickal current have sadly been mis used, recycled, and lumped into contradicting systems of thought.
Please do not mix Thelema with Satanism. It means find to your True Will and do nothing else, in the most simple terms. Every so called "Occult" BM or Noise groups seems to forget the other part - "Love is the Law, Love under Will." I have 11 years now of experience at being a Thelemite, anyone wants to discuss it I am open to doing so. The same goes for Ceremonial Magick in both the Western and Eastern sense.
Any comments on this book? Seems interesting.
Luigi Russolo, Futurist: Noise, Visual Arts, and the Occult (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Luigi-Russolo-Futurist-Visual-Occult/dp/0520270649/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350234278&sr=8-1)
I just bought G.I. Gurdjieff's Meetings with remarkable men and Aghora -At the Left Hand of God by Robert E. Svoboda.
Should be interesting.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on April 30, 2011, 03:24:22 PM
Quote from: SafeWord on April 30, 2011, 01:05:51 PMFunny enough though, that the supposed creator of the ONA converted to Islam.
But as pointed out by people over and over again, his reasoning is well enough documented in his own words, right?
The original ONA life of hermit / shadow person outside society isn't necessarily giving that much possibilities to operate right now. Even less than C18 or NSM.
Kind of late to this discussion, but all occult/esoteric motivations aside, might this not have something to do with the longstanding romance between third-positionist groups generally and certain branches of radical Islam? Since at least the early eighties, for instance, Qaddafi was funding all sorts of third-position/radical nationalist/white power kind of groups all around the world. His money was going to such diverse locations as the IRA, Hakim Bey, Nick Griffin, etc. Just a thought.