So, as we all know, there's lots of great noise & extreme material on cassette. I'm just getting back into them, and I'm already frustrated as hell.
After THREE defective cassette players (two brand new, one used), the fourth one worked - an old Walkman in very good condition. Cleaned the capstan, and it sounded great. Until it decided to eat the new album I just got... Rescued it from the clutches of the machine without breaking, but it wasn't easy. Cleaned again, and then I then attempted to play a 15 year-old tape of mine. While playable, it had degraded a significant amount, even when stored under very good conditions during that time. So that's the lifespan we're talking about here? All these great albums I want to buy will sound like shit in 15 years, even if I take good care of them? I have CD's twice that age, and vinyl 3 times that old, and they sound perfect when stored under the same conditions.
I'm trying to re-embrace this format - I really am. But it's fighting me every step of the way, and is already bringing back all the frustrations I had as a youth with cassettes.
I also refuse to spend $200 on a top-of-the-line Teac deck. For me, that completely defeats the purpose of cassettes being an affordable format.
Am I just having terrible luck here? What do you guys think? What are everyone else's experiences lately with the format?
I think you just might have had bad luck.
I spent 15 euro years ago for a fully restored double tapedeck in a thrift shop, no problems whatsoever.
And most of my older tapes still play perfectly (talking about bought demos from the early 90's + own dubbed stuff..).
I was reared on cassette - all the albums I got from when I was 7 until I was, oooh, 20 or so, were tapes - but I have to say I'd sooner have LP or CD, and will generally only buy a tape if the release is not on CD or vinyl. However, I'd buy tape before CDr. Tape players can be picked up pretty cheap nowadays, and it's reckoned an old 'good' one is likely every bit as good as a brand new one, as the technology hasn't moved on since the heyday. That's what I'm told, anyway.
Yeah, sometimes an old-ish tape will play slow, or even chew, so it's a bit unpredictable. Mind you, the vast majority of the things I have from 30, 35 years ago play fine, so it probably is just a case of you being a little unlucky. Tapes, I think, are more durable and can take a bit more hardship than vinyl, but the big drawback is not being able to get to get to a particular point, or track, quickly. But, as you say, there's plenty of good stuff still being released on tape only, so from that point of view it's worth persevering. And my tractor has a tape player, so all is well!
I'd say bad luck too. I have tape deck bought for 40 euros and it works well for both playback and recording. Saddly the rewind button is broken and as such, I need to use a walkman to rewind.
It's not tape's problem but machine's, unless it's the rare case when cassette cell is faulty. Just cause a machine plays it doesn't mean it's in good condition. Obviously that walkman wasn't. And it's not just the obvious problems of not working. It's W&F numbers, correct calibration, heads wear etc. I agree it needs luck or to invest a fair amount on a restored / repaired deck by someone who really knows. Or to have the technical knowledge and the equipment to restore one yourself.
My advice is don't buy anything cheap from Ebay that it just says "Working condition" cause sooner or later [Sooner likely] you will find out that it was money in the garbage bin. Ofcource there are cases where a good deck it needs just a belt and it's owner selling it for peanuts !
I am with a shitty Aiwa at the moment. Working OK but heads are not in good condition. I have a better Aiwa not working for years, i am trying to fix it myself, more likely i ll destroy totally haha. I gave a vintage Luxman with just an idler problem and high W&F for the shitty Aiwa. Move i regret now, but it doesn't matter anyway. I am in search for a repaired / serviced Nakamichi. Soon i hope.
I like tapes !
Bad luck, indeed.
About seven years ago, when my previous tape deck (which I bought second-hand in the beginning of 90's) died, I bought this: http://www.ionaudio.com/products/details/tape-2-pc (http://www.ionaudio.com/products/details/tape-2-pc)
I had my doubts at first but it had served me surprisingly well. Tape-to-tape dubbing, usb for making digital backup copies. The only fault i've met so far is the audible 'click' when dubbing tapes and pressing pause at the recording deck (makes the one-track-at-a-time recording quite annoying). They are actually making walkman-style portable tape players/converters too.
Some really old tapes (from 70's) mostly sound aged but I have a lot of 80's tapes that sound fine. Even though I like tapes I am usually bit paranoid with tape media, therefore I always make digital backups of rare and small edition tapes I get... just in case something unexpected happens.
Tapes are mechanical items, so there may be also mechanical issues with them which are pretty easy to correct. These days I have faced a lot of tapes, which need little adjustment.
For example, certain popular duplicating company confirmed that many of their tape shells are old stock. Manufactured decades ago, which resulted that even if product is sort of "brand new", in fact, tapes were like 15-20 years old. This had resulted that spring what should give pad pressure isn't working anymore. This results that tape isn't either properly against tape heads so sound isn't good or it will start eat the tape all together.
What experts who have time to play around with precicious tapes say:
-Replace the pressure pad + spring
-Transfer the tape to another cassette shell
-Play the tape on a dual capstan machine.
What I generally use, works pretty much always:
If the pad has not rotted, sometimes the following will work:
bend the pressure pad spring a little so the pad sits closer to the outside of the cassette shell. This can be done with an L-shaped piece of 1mm steel wire by pulling carefully outward on the spring at two places, at each side of the pressure pad. Increase pulling pressure until the spring stays bent upward a little.
Nowadays I always check out how is the mechanics of spring/pad before I play tape. Almost without exception, I can already tell if tape will need slight adjustment before. It is really not a big deal and goes into same category like do you clean the dust of the LP before you play it. If you don't bother to take few little measures what format may require, then it's better just to move to CD and digital files. In ideal cases, tapes require almost nothing. Just push play and that's it. In many cases, quality of bulk tapes used for high speed dubbing is such a rubbish, there are compromises in every detail of production. So, one may have to use couple seconds to re-adjust tape.
Some tape related tips here:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Recording_from_Cassette#Pressure_Pad
Thanks for the advice everyone.
Well, now my FOURTH player died last night. The Walkman's belt came undone & that's why the capstan sucked up & ate the tape. Managed to put the belt back, but keeps sliding right back off due to lack of tension. So it needs a new belt. And the cost of a pack of belts? The same as I paid for the machine... Ugh. Not worth the cost or hassle for such a crappy player (not to mention I cracked the back plastic slightly while trying to pry it off)
So my options are: Buy a new deck of cheap Chinese construction - or an old deck that will soon need maintenance (and more of my time & money)? Maybe I just have to look at it like a belt-driven turntable. It's inevitable that you'll need to replace it at some point.
I'm curious: is that part of the fun for some of you? Tinkering with the machines & the tapes - working on them like one might enjoy working on a car? No such thing with CDs & CD players, I guess. Once they die, you just have to toss them. They either work perfectly or they don't.
It's a dilemma. I love the material that's coming out on the format, but the format itself? Not so much. The sound on cassettes definitely has a distinct personality, which I'm enjoying more than I thought I would. But I'm not convinced it's so amazing that it's worth all the hassle. (I say this now, but I'll probably end up going to a thrift store soon...)
I have a couple of $100- decks manufactured in the 80s that play well every time. I have a $300 Sony deck from the late-90s, and it was garbage from the moment I bought it new. Constant repairs that didn't repair the problems. New problems every few months. A real lemon. I wouldn't hesitate to buy used, but a lot of variables would go into play. I'd sooner buy a deck from the 80s than from the 90s, but I had that horrible Sony experience. Like most things in the 2000s, I would venture to guess a 2016 $200 deck is like a $40 deck of old. In other words, total shit and a nightmare to be expected.
There are so many rubber and plastic parts to degrade in a tape deck. It's amazing any of them from 20-40 years ago still function at all. A testament to how things were once designed to last, over-built, and manufactured at high standards, even at the bottom of product lines. The quality existed throughout the line. The differences were in the features.
I have a box of really old cassettes (probably older than many people who post here), and they all play fine. I wouldn't go as far as to say they are more durable than vinyl, but my experience is they last longer than folklore would indicate.
Quote from: SinkSlopProcessing on March 17, 2016, 09:57:59 PM
even when stored under very good conditions during that time.
I'm quite curious what is considered to be the better or best condition to store a tape. My room in the basement is cold (means not heated) during the week and then warm on the weekends. I'm afraid this isn't the best condition for any format?
Quote from: cr on March 18, 2016, 10:02:46 PM
Quote from: SinkSlopProcessing on March 17, 2016, 09:57:59 PM
even when stored under very good conditions during that time.
I'm quite curious what is considered to be the better or best condition to store a tape. My room in the basement is cold (means not heated) during the week and then warm on the weekends. I'm afraid this isn't the best condition for any format?
Humidity is probably a bigger problem than temperature (excluding plastic-melting temps), and low humidity is better than high humidity. Like anything, I'm sure there is a balance somewhere in there. It can't be so dry as to dry out the tape, but it can't be so humid that moisture collects on the metal magnetic particles. If you're going to store something like a cassette or paper goods in a basement, it is good to maintain a constant low humidity and run a de-humidifier in the warmer months.
Like others have said before, I think you're having bad luck, SinkSlopProcessing. I bought a NAD deck used but recently serviced on Ebay over three years ago and I haven't had any issues with it. There's only been one tape that it once had problems playing in that it would play it for a short while, then stop. Each time, a tiny length of tape had come out of the shell when I took the tape out of the deck, but I was impressed that not once did the deck actually chew or damage the tape; instead, it stopped playing it. After a while I found out that one of the "wheels" in the shell was not quite in the right place, so I realigned it with a pen. I think that was the problem, although I haven't played that tape since.
My advice would be to look for a used deck, probably from the '80s or '90s, that has either been just serviced, or have it serviced yourself. It will cost some money (although my deck cost about $100 AUD which I considered very reasonable), but it should work without problems for a (hopefully long) while.
As for tinkering with decks, I haven't had to do that and wouldn't if I had to. I wouldn't know the first thing about what to do. I'd just take it to a nearby high-end hi-fi store that does repairs (and where at the moment my CD player is being repaired which will cost me a lot of money).
acsenger: I think I will go the refurbished route. No sense playing more eBay & thrift store bingo, hoping I'll get lucky. I'll also make damn sure the drive belts were recently replaced, since that was the culprit with all the used units I've bought.
I've always said I'd release an album on VHS in a heartbeat if it weren't for the whole NTSC/PAL problem. 16-bit audio and cheap as dirt now. Now there'd be a great-sounding cassette...
I guess I've been lucky with tapes, because I've never had a tape get "eaten" or otherwise damaged during use. I play my tapes on an old Sony Walkman I got at a pawn shop, for $15 if I remember correctly. It's not in perfect condition, and sometimes the audio comes as unintended harsh noise when I turn it on (which the volume knob is can't turn up or down)... this can often be fixed by wiggling the headphone connector, or sometimes even by popping the batteries out and back in, or just waiting to try using it at another time. The tapes are always fine afterwards. I guess I'll have to get it repaired at some point, but can anyone diagnose it from this post?
My least favourite thing about the cassette revival is how limited a lot of the releases are, even from artists/labels that I have the impression are the "hottest thing" in their genre right now. Feels almost like a strategy to keep the tapes out of the hands of the non-devoted? It can be a little stressful trying to stay in the loop, and inevitably sometimes learning about great releases after the tapes are already sold out. I bet if we made a list of the most essential industrial/PE tapes of 2015, the majority of them would be currently unavailable. I don't think that's as much of a problem with CD releases.
Quote from: cr on March 18, 2016, 10:02:46 PM
I'm quite curious what is considered to be the better or best condition to store a tape. My room in the basement is cold (means not heated) during the week and then warm on the weekends. I'm afraid this isn't the best condition for any format?
(http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/Images/figure_6.gif)
Taken from http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/5premature_degrade.html . A lot of related infos there.
I bring my tape deck to the store down the street that's been there for 200 years and fixes sewing machines, blenders and TVs. When it stopped running last time they put a new motor in, did whatever to calibrate it, boom, it's worked for 7 years with no issues and it cost me about $40 with parts and labour. I'm thinking about taking the Sony deck my dad had in the 80s there too, I used that one all through the 90's and had no issues but it's stopped working around the same time I got my current deck.
I wouldn't put my tapes in a walkman, I remember when I was a kid how many times I had to pull eaten tapes out (this was in the early 90's when I just bought tapes of everything and there were no backups) and I doubt the technology has improved since then. Remember those giant fucking Sony yellow ones that were "waterproof"? Those things were built like a fucking tank.
Anyway, I don't mind tapes, I have hundreds of them but they're kind of pain to listen to for my "lifestyle" (aka I am not home as often as I'd like). I'd almost prefer a CD at this point, it might go sit in my basement in a plastic tub but at least I'll have a digital copy for my walk to work.
Quote from: SinkSlopProcessing on March 17, 2016, 09:57:59 PM
I also refuse to spend $200 on a top-of-the-line Teac deck. For me, that completely defeats the purpose of cassettes being an affordable format.
I personally question if cassette format has as much to do with affordability than with either tradition or fetish. One could argue that magnetic tape is the backbone of most of this music historically and directly responsible for its evolution and therefore is a fitting format for its release.
I think a lot of the people putting out tapes do so as a labor of love doing one to one dubs of 50 or 100 tapes, and therefore probably aren't making very much on the 7 bucks they are selling it for.
I agree with Holy though, find a cheap electronics shop to have it fixed. Shouldn't cost more than 40 or 50 bucks. I have several decks in need of repair, and am currently using a Walkman (I am not an audiophile). But one could argue that the nicer the deck you buy the less harsh it will be on your tapes, I know car tape decks eat shit up.
The appeal of tape for me is it is similar to vinyl format since you interact with it by manually flipping it. I also like the look, the feel and watching them play. That said as I get older, even though I continue to buy LPs and the like I'm actually just as happy with MP3 due to accessibility and the desire to not be drowning in stuff.
I grew up on tapes and I don't really romanticize them the way some people do. As others said, making sure the tape itself is mechanically ready for play and that your tape deck or portable cassette player in sound working condition is key.
I probably only have 20 or 30 tapes now and rarely play them. Part of the reason is I don't have a traditional tape deck.
I do have a very nice Sony Walkman I bought NOS a few years back on eBay. It actually sounds quite good, has selectors for tape type and all that, one of those big sports models as well.
I think if someone is going to run a tape label in 2016, selling high quality digital downloads of the music on the tape is probably a good idea. Several labels are doing this now and I have to give them credit. Even though I can play tapes it's not my preferred format and I will gladly take a paid FLAC download over a tape any day.
Our local repair shop was once the regional authorized repair center for Teac and several others. I believe they were even once an authorized Nakamichi and McIntosh shop. Older guy who has been working on electronics since the 70s and his niece at the desk. They charge $80/hour, and from what I've seen, you aren't getting out of there with a bill less than that. 5 minutes or 60 minutes = $80. After that, they get precise with their fees. They do high quality work, though.
Quote from: jadderly on March 20, 2016, 07:52:46 PM
I think if someone is going to run a tape label in 2016, selling high quality digital downloads of the music on the tape is probably a good idea. Several labels are doing this now and I have to give them credit. Even though I can play tapes it's not my preferred format and I will gladly take a paid FLAC download over a tape any day.
I have had several different opinions about digital downloads in the past, starting from think them as a "bless". But i have concluded that digital files / masters should stay at artist's / label's PC and not for public. It destroys most of the surrounding "fun", not the listening ofcource cause they are superior sonically. Turns the whole thing into a "fast food" proccess, imo. Personally, i prefer to "hunt" for a long time a limited or old tape [Vinyl, CD] i want, to pay something more at the end to get it, than to wake up a day and see it suddenly on Bandcamp for a few dollars, for free or even already pirated around, just a few clicks away. At the end if something becomes / prooved too hard or expensive to get, a physical reissue is very welcome.
Quote from: Theodore on March 21, 2016, 05:46:03 PM
Personally, i prefer to "hunt" for a long time a limited or old tape [Vinyl, CD] i want, to pay something more at the end to get it, than to wake up a day and see it suddenly on Bandcamp for a few dollars, for free or even already pirated around, just a few clicks away. At the end if something becomes / prooved too hard or expensive to get, a physical reissue is very welcome.
You should definitely buy a Sluice Room album, then - all of our releases are physical only! ;)
Very interesting, overall, to hear everyone's opinions here. I do want to support artists releasing on cassette because it is, as many have said, a labor of love. It may also be a fetish or a fad, but that's fine too. You can't go wrong supporting people's passion. Hell, I have an incurable CD fetish, though they aren't terribly popular right now (but I'm not complaining about how cheap used CDs are...).
I also plan to look into getting a direct-drive cassette deck, which I didn't even know existed until recently. I know there's 3,000 different parts that can go wrong on any cassette player, but those damn drive belts are the bane of my auditory existence lately.
Quote from: Theodore on March 21, 2016, 05:46:03 PM
i have concluded that digital files / masters should stay at artist's / label's PC and not for public. It destroys most of the surrounding "fun", not the listening ofcource cause they are superior sonically. Turns the whole thing into a "fast food" proccess, imo. Personally, i prefer to "hunt" for a long time a limited or old tape [Vinyl, CD] i want, to pay something more at the end to get it, than to wake up a day and see it suddenly on Bandcamp for a few dollars, for free or even already pirated around, just a few clicks away. At the end if something becomes / prooved too hard or expensive to get, a physical reissue is very welcome.
Hunting for rare stuff is all well and good but why on Earth should you worry if the same audio material is available online for anyone else? You getting the pleasure of looking for a physical item, others getting the pleasure of just hearing the sound without having to hunt for it - how is that not a win/win? If it's "fast food" to you, you don't have to eat it, but why shouldn't anyone else?
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on March 22, 2016, 08:27:17 AM
Hunting for rare stuff is all well and good but why on Earth should you worry if the same audio material is available online for anyone else? You getting the pleasure of looking for a physical item, others getting the pleasure of just hearing the sound without having to hunt for it - how is that not a win/win? If it's "fast food" to you, you don't have to eat it, but why shouldn't anyone else?
I think the sole down side would be Bandcamp itself. Their terms & conditions may be the most terrifying legal document I've ever seen. They actually use the term "exploit" - as in, they have the right to exploit your work in any way they see fit. For all intents and purposes, they own every piece of sound and artwork you post. (Soundcloud is much better, but they are not really marketplace-focused).
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on March 22, 2016, 08:27:17 AM
Hunting for rare stuff is all well and good but why on Earth should you worry if the same audio material is available online for anyone else? You getting the pleasure of looking for a physical item, others getting the pleasure of just hearing the sound without having to hunt for it - how is that not a win/win? If it's "fast food" to you, you don't have to eat it, but why shouldn't anyone else?
What i didn't write or my bad english didn't help me to express it right, is that if such digital appears / exists i stop looking for the physical item, in most cases. I am not an item fetishist, it's the music i care about too, mostly. To have / listen it in the best possible quality it's offered from the "source", either that be physical format or digital. So with digital being easily available my hunt for this release is over, there isn't a hunt. I guess maybe the chase is better than the catch for me, or the catch is better if there is a chase first. I don't know, but that's how i feel.
Quote from: SinkSlopProcessing on March 23, 2016, 02:14:14 AM
I think the sole down side would be Bandcamp itself. Their terms & conditions may be the most terrifying legal document I've ever seen. They actually use the term "exploit" - as in, they have the right to exploit your work in any way they see fit..
Yes, having a look at it now that is a down side. A rather contradictory document too, as it starts by stating "Company will not have any ownership rights in any elements of an Artist's Music", then adds "however" and then goes on to basically claim ownership rights of any elements of an artist's music. Although it does later state that any use of your music and graphics is "solely in connection with the Service or in the marketing, promotion or advertising of the service, including in all forms of marketing, promotion, and advertising materials now known or hereafter created", which to me looks like they're saying they may use someone's music and image as an example of how successful you can be on Bandcamp once they conquers the charts and ends up sitting on the panel of judges of "This Country's Got Talent".
I think for the likes of scum like us there's no danger we'll be ripped off. But that is a worrying element of their terms and conditions. I wonder if there's been hassle so far as a result. The whole mainstream music industry is a fucking miasma of legal traps anyway.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on March 23, 2016, 02:55:27 AM
Although it does later state that any use of your music and graphics is "solely in connection with the Service or in the marketing, promotion or advertising of the service, including in all forms of marketing, promotion, and advertising materials now known or hereafter created", which to me looks like they're saying they may use someone's music and image as an example of how successful you can be on Bandcamp once they conquers the charts and ends up sitting on the panel of judges of "This Country's Got Talent".
I think for the likes of scum like us there's no danger we'll be ripped off. But that is a worrying element of their terms and conditions. I wonder if there's been hassle so far as a result. The whole mainstream music industry is a fucking miasma of legal traps anyway.
I could imagine them using even our sonic smut for their own purposes... Imagine a TV or radio ad. Your harsh noise is playing loud and clear. The announcer comes on and says "Don't let your next record sound like THIS! Use Bandcamp's new mastering service!"
It is a shame that even those completely outside mainstream commercial music (like all of us) now have to worry about mainstream music industry issues - all for the sake of some web hosting & a place to pitch our wares. It's frustrating as hell. I think of older extreme acts like acts like Throbbing Gristle & Merzbow in their earliest days: making cassettes & generally not giving a fuck. You'll never make money off it anyway, so why not just DIY & be completely uncompromising? But then again, both eventually ended up on bigger labels, and used the media of the day to the best of their ability...
Maybe that's why I want to be somewhat supportive of cassettes (my frustrations with the format notwithstanding), if I may bring the thread full circle. In an ideal world, that's what cassettes can be (and CD-Rs, thumb drives, etc): a big middle finger to the industry. Digital is undeniable convenient, but is virtually impossible to do without signing your rights away. That's one often unspoken advantage of physical media: the ability to retain the rights to your own work.
Welp - I officially give up. My FIFTH cassette deck went tits-up. It was a newly refurbished Sankyo, new belts, sounded great. Until after less than a month of use, the left channel suddenly dropped out & was replaced with a deafening, studdering noise. Just when I learn how to repair belts (which seem to always die within minutes in my previous decks), now this happens. I'm done. Time to rediscover the merits of the humble compact disc...
However, my loss is your gain. Check out my discogs page for a chance to buy some of the cassettes I never got a chance to listen to. All but one are imported, so it's a great deal if you're in the US.
https://www.discogs.com/seller/SinkSlopProcessing/profile
I like to pick up tape decks at garage sales, flea markets etc. In northern California this was never too hard. In NYC it's fucking impossible. I'm still patiently combing through CL looking for someone who doesnt think they have the last tape deck used by Kirt Cobain. I swear everyone in NY thinks their feces is made out of gold.
Personally I've had positive experiences with Sony, Teac/Tascam, Aiwa, Onkyo and somewhat good with Hitachi and Sanyo. I'd like to say nice things about NAD or Pioneer but I never owned one.
I've got my heart set on another Sony digitally controlled analog one from the 80's. Those are beasts. Sound better than digital, weight a ton, but when they break nobody has the parts.
As far as cassettes as a medium in general I guess I owe them a lot. I did most of my recording from an early age up into my mid 30's on cassettes. Even when I started getting into open reel tape decks, I still used cassette as mixdown and of course for distribution.
Then there are all the tapes I've bought over the years from classifieds in MRR, Factsheet 5, Flipside etc. Most of which were obscure, awful and great.
I am not an audiophile, but I will suggest a couple things.
I do pro tapes with a duplication company that includes a COBY Walkman with each order. They are cheap and easily replaceable. I recently had a Sony dual tape deck from the 80s that died after 30 years, and I dubbed a few short run tapes on them, about 200 dubs altogether, and that was the nail in the coffin, to be honest, but in terms of playback, never had a problem. I think in this case, when the tape stopped, something wore out that the motor didn't stop,so if I didn't manually stop it, it would wear the motor... And it eventually wore out. I should have fixed that, it was a mighty loyal deck.
So... the COBY Walkman is really cheap, and has never eaten anything of mine, a couple years now, BUT it gets feedback from cell phone signals very easily, so if you are in public, you will get a loud buzzing sound when someone on their phone passes. But at home, it's not a problem. Also, if you decide to take another chance with a thrift store, again, I am no expert, but it seems to me, the heavier the better. And must be from the 80s, especially if you plan to do home dubbing. Anything in the 90s is just not meant to dub more than 150 tapes in its lifetime.
And also, I've been using CDrs since 1997, and the only ones that have worn out are those where it is black on the playable side. I don't understand the reluctance toward CDrs, aside from the likeliness that it will be labelled with sharpie marker or spray paint and whatnot. Obviously there is a bit of a sound difference between glass mastered CDs and CDrs, but I've never been able to tell the difference with one, unless it was the very cheap kind, like Verbatim...
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on July 06, 2016, 01:14:22 PMObviously there is a bit of a sound difference between glass mastered CDs and CDrs, but I've never been able to tell the difference with one, unless it was the very cheap kind, like Verbatim...
I thought Verbatim's a good brand! Going offtopic, but have you got any recommendations on good brands & places to order the CD-R's from?
seems to be issues between the cassettes themselves and the means to play them.
as a boringly old fan, recent tapes have better sound quality - likely pro reproduction rather than tape to tape copying.
way back then it was a necessity, now it seems to be a choice.
that choice is not necessarily wrong- recent tapes are on the whole, great as far as overall sound goes (with some nostalgic extra hiss) as the general bass is better.
following a reply as typing, little to add, nothing to change.
cassettes are both fetishistic reminders of a 'better' past as well as an integral aesthetic of an anti establishment genre-ie you are heading to digital oblivion so I will head into an analog past
Quote from: DBL on July 06, 2016, 08:57:11 PM
I thought Verbatim's a good brand! Going offtopic, but have you got any recommendations on good brands & places to order the CD-R's from?
Like most things, that depends on how much you want to spend. You can buy archival media said to last 100 years, which is what places like the Smithsonian use, but it is pricey. As a decent general rule, you want to buy media manufactured in Japan, but that will also cost you comparatively more. There are websites where you can type in the manufacturing codes to see where they're made, quality rating, etc. They also tend to have photos of the different packaging so you can match up the blanks to the information and feedback. Some burning software, like ImgBurn, will give you the manufacturing codes as it first reads the blank. Verbatim made in Japan isn't the same, nor does it look like, Verbatim made in Taiwan. Most Verbatim gets good ratings. Also, like many things, they make a handful of different blanks and then screen print/brand them to order. You'll buy a pack of Verbatims that read CM3-001, and then you'll buy a pack of Sony that also read CM3-001.
Quote from: david lloyd jones on July 06, 2016, 10:24:45 PM
as a boringly old fan, recent tapes have better sound quality - likely pro reproduction rather than tape to tape copying.
This has not been my experience in the past and especially now. Pro dubbing is all done on high-speed machines, and a lot of places use Type I tape. Neither make for great copying. From my understanding, it is common for dubbing facilities to not have stereo capabilities. They mono it and mirror it over to the other channel. I've had great dubbing luck with average quality machines in real time with Type II blanks.
Quote from: david lloyd jones on July 06, 2016, 10:24:45 PM
you are heading to digital oblivion so I will head into an analog past
This forum is full of potential T-shirt prints. This may be my favorite so far.
I got 3 decks / decs broken.
First was like combination cassette and cd player 100€
Second was like handheld walkman style player 20€
Third (and the last) 2nd hand cassette deck 40€ broke down just after 1-weekend of use.
I'm not going to get 4th.
Quote from: JuhoN on July 07, 2016, 12:40:10 AM
I got 3 decks / decs broken.
First was like combination cassette and cd player 100€
Second was like handheld walkman style player 20€
Third (and the last) 2nd hand cassette deck 40€ broke down just after 1-weekend of use.
I'm not going to get 4th.
If you had given at first 160 to buy one from a reliable technician, more likely you would have a deck now and you would have saved yourself from frustration. Seriously guys, we get what we pay. You expect to find a perfect working / condition deck with 40 and this to last for long ? You must be extremely lucky ! The problem is that seems reliable dedicated technicians who really care to do a perfect work are not many around. As for the indeed somewhat high prices ... Have you checked how much reliable calibration test tapes cost ? Or have you disassembled a deck to pieces and screws ? Plus the electronics to be checked. It's not i changed a belt and it's ready.
With tape decks it really depends. I bought most of my current decks at thrift stores throughout the years. Cleaned them up and did some very minor adjustments to them. I have a 90s Technics deck that I bought for 10 bucks and I've been using it for like 4 years straight without any issues. Got an old Harman Kardon in my living room that I bought for 20 bucks. Never had any issues. I have plenty of backup decks in case one craps out...but I never spent more than 40 dollars on any deck I own. In the last 2 years it's been harder to find them in the thrift stores though. I suppose that's because of the resurgence of tape-releases etc. If you know where to look, you can definitely get lucky. Spending money doesn't always help. Buddy of mine bought 2 older Nakamichi-Decks last year for big bucks and they both crapped out within a month or so...he probably spent more on those two than I spent on the like 8 decks I currently own.
Quote from: Theodore on July 07, 2016, 04:42:09 AM
Quote from: JuhoN on July 07, 2016, 12:40:10 AM
I got 3 decks / decs broken.
First was like combination cassette and cd player 100€
Second was like handheld walkman style player 20€
Third (and the last) 2nd hand cassette deck 40€ broke down just after 1-weekend of use.
I'm not going to get 4th.
If you had given at first 160 to buy one from a reliable technician, more likely you would have a deck now and you would have saved yourself from frustration. Seriously guys, we get what we pay. You expect to find a perfect working / condition deck with 40 and this to last for long ? You must be extremely lucky ! The problem is that seems reliable dedicated technicians who really care to do a perfect work are not many around. As for the indeed somewhat high prices ... Have you checked how much reliable calibration test tapes cost ? Or have you disassembled a deck to pieces and screws ? Plus the electronics to be checked. It's not i changed a belt and it's ready.
I have no problem paying 20€ for vinyl LP. But it just feels bad to pay 200€ for cassette deck.
It's just matter of time anyways before it eats cassette to unlistenable condition.
Quote from: JuhoN on July 07, 2016, 12:17:38 PM
I have no problem paying 20€ for vinyl LP. But it just feels bad to pay 200€ for cassette deck.
It's just matter of time anyways before it eats cassette to unlistenable condition.
It's just matter of time before we all die, true. How much did you pay for your turntable, amp, pre-amp, speakers ? Your TV ? How much do you spend for beers ? Rhetoric questions. Oh well, i am not trying to convince anyone to spend money on anything, neither to say that something expensive means it's good. But when someone put some work on something, took care of it, that thing won't be cheap.
my basic cassette player com duplicator, com digitiser is great. cheap and functional.
as for cassettes themselves, there is clearly a recent fetish to replicate what was once an economic necessity, later fetishized both as object and also for sound.
at the end of the day, there are most folks who will buy and listen to whatever comes out in whatever format, cassette being only one of a number...
Quote from: Theodore on July 07, 2016, 02:26:39 PM
How much did you pay for your turntable, amp, pre-amp, speakers ? Your TV ? How much do you spend for beers ? Rhetoric questions. Oh well, i am not trying to convince anyone to spend money on anything, neither to say that something expensive means it's good. But when someone put some work on something, took care of it, that thing won't be cheap.
See, that defeats the purpose of cassettes for me. It's supposed to be a cheap, accessible format, and yet I've now spent way more money trying to play them than I have on any other format.
I've never spent one cent to be able to play CDs. Because at any given time, I've always had no less than 5 devices just lying around that could play them: Blu-ray player, DVD player, game consoles old and new, computer disc drives, etc. I'll bet the same is true where you live, too.
Quote from: SinkSlopProcessing on July 09, 2016, 06:46:29 AM
See, that defeats the purpose of cassettes for me. It's supposed to be a cheap, accessible format, and yet I've now spent way more money trying to play them than I have on any other format.
I've never spent one cent to be able to play CDs. Because at any given time, I've always had no less than 5 devices just lying around that could play them: Blu-ray player, DVD player, game consoles old and new, computer disc drives, etc. I'll bet the same is true where you live, too.
It was supposed to be the cheapest and most accessible format, still is cheap and accessible but not the most. There are CDr + digital files.
Let's do some maths. Tape costs 6-7 euro. CD costs 11-12 euro. 5 euro more. Let's say a CD player is free and an deck [not top, but serviced to last for years] costs 150. After 30 purchased releases you are even.
I understand your problem isn't with cassette format itself but with the decks, and you are partially right. They can cause frustration and lost money. I know it myself too, firsthand. But do you know many machines with motors, rubber parts, electronics and every kind of micro parts, that work perfectly after 30 years without a good service ? Even in this aspect, decks are good, still you can find units at low price that with a minimum work they will perform decently for quite some time. And if they have a proper FULL service, they will have many trouble-free years in front of them.
Anyway, to return to topic's title, noone can help you to embrace cassettes other than good tapes playbacked by a good deck. If even then you don't like them, then they are not for you. Nothing wrong. Everyone has his preferences.
Yeah it is kind of frustrating trying to find a decent tape deck. I don't get the prices? It's an obsolete format, and the fidelity was never that great. But you go up on Ebay and people are asking absurd prices for 25 year old decks. Likely with gummy pinch rollers and rusty heads.
My pain is that I have about a dozen board tapes that I want to get digitized. I'm mostly just going to put them in my itunes, but figure I'll probably post them on youtube for other people to hear as well.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 06, 2016, 11:37:12 PM
Quote from: DBL on July 06, 2016, 08:57:11 PM
as a boringly old fan, recent tapes have better sound quality - likely pro reproduction rather than tape to tape copying.
This has not been my experience in the past and especially now. Pro dubbing is all done on high-speed machines, and a lot of places use Type I tape. Neither make for great copying. From my understanding, it is common for dubbing facilities to not have stereo capabilities. They mono it and mirror it over to the other channel. I've had great dubbing luck with average quality machines in real time with Type II blanks.
Those hi-speed dubbing machines are more often used in a DIY context by labels, so if something is not "pro printed" IE with imprints on the shells, I suspect someone is using a worn out dubber (they wear out fast), and saying it is "pro dubbed".
The experience I have had with pro tapes is very good. It is exactly what I want from a tape; A minimal amount of hiss, good dynamics, and I can use Chrome, Cobalt, Type II High Bias, or whatever, for not much of a price difference. Very good dynamics, since we are still talking about relatively lo-fidelity compared to CD, but I will admit, I am a believer in the whole "warmth" thing. I think tapes and vinyl have a more organic quality to them, especially when rendered from analog sources.
I just want to say, I don't have any nostalgia for tapes, they have never left my realm. I bought only cassettes up until 2001 or so, mainly because discmen skipped too much, among other things, but this new fad of people "only buying tapes" is just vapid and tedious to me, for someone to broadly dismiss another person's work, even their favorite artists, because of format. Plain silly.
That said, I continue to listen to cassettes because walkmans are cheap. I haven't had the best of luck with dual tape decks since the one I had since childhood finally died last year.
I end up buying this cheap cassette converter for 20€. It actually plays cassettes better than I expected.
I convert audio and save it to cd-r
My other great annoyance in this regard is that I live in NYC. Where anything older than 20 years is 'vintage' and some jackass is trying to make a fat buck off of it. There are no crusty old men with stores full of rebuilt consumer electronics. It would cost too much in rent to be able to justify such a store. Also it seems that none of the Goodwill or Salvation Army type stores are very good in this regard. Maybe I need to go on a road trip to the heartland to buy a deck.
buy several and flog them to 'jackasses'
Quote from: Theodore on July 10, 2016, 03:08:23 AM
It was supposed to be the cheapest and most accessible format, still is cheap and accessible but not the most. There are CDr + digital files.
Let's do some maths. Tape costs 6-7 euro. CD costs 11-12 euro. 5 euro more. Let's say a CD player is free and an deck [not top, but serviced to last for years] costs 150. After 30 purchased releases you are even.
I understand your problem isn't with cassette format itself but with the decks, and you are partially right. They can cause frustration and lost money. I know it myself too, firsthand. But do you know many machines with motors, rubber parts, electronics and every kind of micro parts, that work perfectly after 30 years without a good service ? Even in this aspect, decks are good, still you can find units at low price that with a minimum work they will perform decently for quite some time. And if they have a proper FULL service, they will have many trouble-free years in front of them.
Anyway, to return to topic's title, noone can help you to embrace cassettes other than good tapes playbacked by a good deck. If even then you don't like them, then they are not for you. Nothing wrong. Everyone has his preferences.
You're assuming one can find a cassette deck that lasts for 30 purchases. My five decks
combined did not last for 30 cassette purchases.
But you're right that any machine with so many moving parts is bound to fail eventually. Combine that with the more advanced age of these machines (compared to CD players), and you have the perfect recipe for failure. Which is why it's so discouraging that there's such a heavy emphasis on the format right now. I'm missing out on some great albums because I don't have the time or money to commit to repairing these damned things over and over.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on July 15, 2016, 04:17:18 PM
but this new fad of people "only buying tapes" is just vapid and tedious to me, for someone to broadly dismiss another person's work, even their favorite artists, because of format. Plain silly.
Couldn't agree more. But everyone has voted with their wallets, and many stores dealing in experimental music stock mostly cassettes these days. Thus, based on their purchases, many people
are dismissing artists' work if it's not on cassette. I wonder if the fad will wane once enough people reach the frustration level I'm at with the decks. Many did not experience this back in the 80s, and do not yet realize why CDs were welcomed with open arms when they arrived on the scene.
Meh. I have had tape decks in my last 3 cars. I almost never had any problem with them. I had a box of tapes and I'd blindly fumble with the tapes, then slam one into the deck. While driving 80mph down I-5 in California. I do not think that would work with CDs
Tapes are a totally robust format. A properly set up deck can get pretty damn close to the bandwidth of a CD, but not the noise floor.
The main thing that made CDs super popular was the ability to skip around, and not have to rewind. The durability of CDs is and has been terrible.
Word
Quote from: SinkSlopProcessing on July 20, 2016, 10:33:48 PM
Couldn't agree more. But everyone has voted with their wallets, and many stores dealing in experimental music stock mostly cassettes these days. Thus, based on their purchases, many people are dismissing artists' work if it's not on cassette. I wonder if the fad will wane once enough people reach the frustration level I'm at with the decks. Many did not experience this back in the 80s, and do not yet realize why CDs were welcomed with open arms when they arrived on the scene.
For a while I couldn't shake the feeling that CDs were basically expensive digital downloads. The digital aspect of it made it feel a bit like I was simply buying computerized music which I might as well download for free. For this reason, I turned back to tapes and vinyls, since these formats have a (perceived) higher level of physicality to them. I still like tapes and vinyls, partly for these reasons, but I've sort of lost my hostility/lack of interests in CDs. Perhaps because I now at times pay for a download once in a while as well, or perhaps because I've outgrown a temporary, somewhat pseudo-luddite prejudice?
Quote from: Stoa on August 22, 2016, 10:37:54 PM
For a while I couldn't shake the feeling that CDs were basically expensive digital downloads. The digital aspect of it made it feel a bit like I was simply buying computerized music which I might as well download for free.
Still struggling with this myself.
Good to see this point being made. It's like buying something with too much packaging. As a physical format cds really are useless.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on August 23, 2016, 02:14:34 AM
Good to see this point being made. It's like buying something with too much packaging. As a physical format cds really are useless.
Near as I can see, CDs still have usefulness as a physical format (but bear in mind, this is coming from a born-again CD junkie. Your mileage may vary).
- A CD played through any halfway decent stereo setup will generally sound better than a digital file through one's computer (or *shudder*, a cell phone). Granted, there are now lossless music players in component form. But those will set you back quite a bit more money than a humble CD player.
- Backup purposes. Think of the CD as a backup for when your computer inevitably goes tits up. Yes, we all should really backup everything on our computers, but do you really update that every time you download a few albums? I definitely don't.
- The ritual. The same argument that is made for cassettes, vinyl, or any physical format holds true for CDs. Folks just like the ritual involved.
-They're shiny. So very shiny.... (hey, if people can fetishize vinyl & cassettes, I can fetishize CDs).
Are all these points reaching just a bit much? Mere stubbornness? Perhaps. But if we are indeed on the verge of an information dark age as some claim, then having a tangible record is important.
Quote from: SinkSlopProcessing on August 23, 2016, 05:02:44 AM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on August 23, 2016, 02:14:34 AM
Good to see this point being made. It's like buying something with too much packaging. As a physical format cds really are useless.
A CD played through any halfway decent stereo setup will generally sound better than a digital file through one's computer.
Lossless files through a decent soundcard (external, in my case), run through the stereo is going to be the exact same.
Quote from: absurdexposition on August 23, 2016, 05:10:19 AM
Quote from: SinkSlopProcessing on August 23, 2016, 05:02:44 AM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on August 23, 2016, 02:14:34 AM
Good to see this point being made. It's like buying something with too much packaging. As a physical format cds really are useless.
A CD played through any halfway decent stereo setup will generally sound better than a digital file through one's computer.
Lossless files through a decent soundcard (external, in my case), run through the stereo is going to be the exact same.
indeed
yeah I have a mixer that my soundcard and record player are plugged in to.
Thence to an Adcom 535 and a pair of JBL 3ways from the 80's. It sounds just as good coming off of vinyl or digital. The digital goes much lower than the vinyl. The vinyl has a thicker bass sound.
CDs are only good for ripping MP3s. For daily driver playback, I hate CDs. They are way too skip prone.
No, they are not exact the same. Digital file or the CD played in PC, going to a decent USB soundcard then to stereo, in theory will sound better than a CD player to stereo. A decent external soundcard has better DAC and clock than the cheap CD player. I say "in theory" cause i doubt anyone could really hear any difference though. Maybe if he has a crazy audiophile system to do the compare.
That said, CD is not useless. It becomes "useless" soundwise when there are lossless digital files available, cheaper. The audio output / sound character will be the same in both cases. As for the ritual and easy access, you can burn the files on a CDr. It's not the CD the "problem" here imo.
Mark my words: in 10-15 years, CDs will come back into fashion. Replication costs will drop even further, nostalgia will set in for the old-timers, plus a new generation will rediscover them. And we'll have exactly the scenario we're now having with cassettes.
All (non-fringe) physical formats wax and wane in popularity. CDs will be no different.
Quote from: theotherjohn on August 23, 2016, 12:57:10 PM
I just wish physical space to own or rent lost some value too... maybe that's the next thing to fall cheap, as landlords realise younger people don't need large living spaces to contain all their stuff (it's all in the "cloud"), or younger generations will turn to semi-nomadic lifestyles through a future housing equivalent of Airbnb?
That's interesting, because a few weeks ago I listened to a conversation about Millennials buying homes as collectives and then moving from city to city within collective groups. Own interest in a single home as part of a collective group, but then have access to many homes within the group. There was even talk of owning parts of clothing wardrobes so they could be shared. It had the vibe of old communes, but these were professionals making choices to have as many experiential options as possible and veering away from materialism. Lots of money and buying power, but rather than buying stuff, buying into a quasi-nomadic lifestyle.
EDIT: I should add that this was on a politically minded program. It was part of a discussion about how labor laws, unions, property laws, and such will have to be re-written to change with how property and work has been, and will be, affected by "the shared economy."
Oh great, hippy capitalism, just what the world needs. California uber fucking alles.
Quote from: SinkSlopProcessing on August 23, 2016, 09:04:26 AM
Mark my words: in 10-15 years, CDs will come back into fashion. Replication costs will drop even further, nostalgia will set in for the old-timers, plus a new generation will rediscover them. And we'll have exactly the scenario we're now having with cassettes.
All (non-fringe) physical formats wax and wane in popularity. CDs will be no different.
so true.
being digital ambivalent(sounds like a sex thing!) all real objects rule.
even SCI fi predicts this with the real desk and owl question in blade runner.