I didn't find the old topic of "noise economy". Maybe it was in old noisefanatics forum...
Recently been thinking this development with noise tapes, where will be the final price level what will be simply unbearable?
Some friends commented when they got recently some discogs orders and realized that since last time they sold stuff, now shipping single item is like 2-3 times as high.
Recently had some japanese tapes, that had to be priced 17-19 euro each, but that's kind of ridiculous. Even if these prices were intentionally lowest I could see anyone to offer. Wholesale was 10 euro + postage from japan. Even with those prices, I barely break even after selling everything. Profit margin was calculated to be like.. 1 euro?
Or labels seeking distribution who do not trade, and have to ask roughly 5-6 euro wholesale + shipping for their tapes for reason or another.
Key problems are obviously never ending increase of shipping rates. And in case of official label, all sorts of taxes and such. I have tried to settle for generic price of 7 euro, which already for more "d.i.y. background" people may appear fairly rough. To be able to sell for 7 euro, means, without immediate VAT(value added tax, Finland, 24%.) price is 5,65 euro. If I'd hope to keep at least 65 cents as "profit", for all the work, means I should get tape for 5 euro ppd, with no hidden surcharges.
Unfortunately, many times my postage charges are not full charge, but some flat rate. Meaning, someone orders tape, pays 4 euro shipping, and I actually pay 5,75 to ship. This means I lose on every order where profit margin would be merely 1 euro. Even 2 tapes. Or 3 still sold at loss. When order is bigger, then there is no problem, but smaller orders are basically mostly loss. Not big loss, but some anyways. Generally not route what leads for distribution to run smoothly, hah...
Problems nowadays are that due shipping, it can be impossible to get any tapes for 5 euro ppd. While there would be audience for tapes, manufacturing fairly cheap, but all in all, only means of of distributions nowadays for most labels is simply to sell directly to customers.
Think of situation where manufacturing 100 "pro"tapes is perhaps 250. Freebies given to artists adds shipping costs. Perhaps eventually you got costs worth of 300, 75 tapes to sell. It's 4 euro each. Just the cost. Asking 5 + shipping from distributor. Shipping may add 1-2 euro per tape even. Depending where you live and where you send. Distributor gets tape for 7 euro, adds his 1 euro cut, adds tax (here in finland 24%) and retail is 10 euro + shipping. Customer orders just this one tape, pays perhaps 5 euro shipping.. 15 euro later you got 20 mins of noise in your tape deck? For official labels, there's barely any way to find cheaper solutions. So basically one can bluntly conclude to most deal offers that I appreciate offer, but scenario ain't going to work out unless you got name tag on tape what people will pay literally anything.
It's not complaint. Simply observation of situation and questioning how this would be good for format what used to be identified as the best means of checking out something new. How many would check out random 15 euro tape? hah... Turning into expensive novelty item isn't so desired change from my perspective.
Situation may be different on "hobby" level. Not tax obligated labels. Operations in country where shipping isn't unbearable. In form of networking, where trading may be primary method.
What is the pain limit for tape prices?
Does reality of current costs or lack of distribution possibilities etc keep you away from making own (physical) releases?
Even if in theory one could conclude it's simply a choice, either buy or don't, what does it tell about underground culture if attitude is like form of yuppie culture. etc?
..
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It certainly is a worry to me that tape may get to expensive to manufacture, as its probably my favourite format. I can only speak from the side of a consumer rather than a label but nonetheless.
Shipping to Australia can be especially expensive so I generally only get tape if A. its a name I can expect quality from or B. I've heard a sample before hand and can be sure its worth the expense. There probably will come a time where tape becomes simply to expensive to order in all cases, when they reach say, 12 euro, before shipping, but for now, I'm still willing to put down the money for quality.
Personally, there isn't 'pain limit' as such because theres some level of fetishiation (is that even a word? Well, it is now!) with the format where the partial reason to buy the tape is the fact that its a tape, not only about the music. Where the look, layout and other things matter too. If it were 'only' about the music for me, id be buying things digitally rather than wasting money and time and space on any form of physical release, heh.
I haven't personally ran a label ever but I've always felt that the profit margins with any form of noise release can't be that high? But on customer side, it really sucks to find some release youve been looking for a long time for relatively cheap but its in place like USA or Japan or wherever and when you make the order, the shipping costs hit you with way bigger bill than expected. Its always a surprise, or then I am really bad at this or people just keep tabs on postage rates from different countries. Either way, things have turned to the point where domestic is always the first choice, even if the products themselve cost slightly more.
Aside from that, I simply love how here in finland there has been news on how government wants us to have new online shops and such yet the postage costs are astronomical, forcing you to either be extremely niche (probably with extremely low profit margins) to even think of surviving. Combine that with the fact that post doesnt really come in time (with the capital area being the worst, for some reason), its hard to have any edge in competing with someone from place like germany where the price of items might be slightly higher but the shipping costs are lot lower and DHL actually gets shit done.
To me, its not even about noise tapes or limited to world of any music, Finland just sucks if you want to run any kind of online shop and honestly, I can't see how things would change much in future. They probably simply make cuts to the national postal service, then do some layoffs, then hike the price of postage even higher, which seem to be the method our government has chosen to deal with everything.
I think the discussion counts for other formats as well, that shipping is really getting a pain in the ass. If I want to ship 1 LP to anywhere in Europe with Bpost it costs €14 (if it's to countries where I can't use Mondial Rely or Kiala). This is a price for packages up to 1 kg, so you can get a bunch of stuff for that price. Some people then add other stuff in orders, which is nice, some people just pay the €14 shipping for 1 LP and some people cancel their order (understandable but it sucks).
For tapes it costs €4 for one tape, €8 for 2 (up to 4 or 5). And indeed when doing wholesale orders from US labels it's getting quite difficult, running a small (non-registered) distro, I want to keep my prices reasonable, but with those shipping costs even when adding only 50 cents or so, you're going already to €7, which I personally think is still ok for a tape, but it doesn't have to be more than that either. Some labels are generous enough to add some free stuff to make up for the shipping cost, which is appreciated, but of course it's money out of their pockets.
With the Chaos Cascade tape, the amount of money I spent on it, was quite ok, so I could make a bit of money from selling copies directly, but when trading and thus adding shipping costs, that gets diminished. Of course I don't have to make money with this, but I don't want to loose too much money on it either and I feel it's getting more difficult to move stuff in general.
Regarding the above posters last sentence: I've got the feeling that government (in Belgium as well) is dealing with several traditional government companies like this, because they want to get rid of them and want to make space for the free market, but are afraid that just getting rid of them will get too much resistance. (Or is this bordering on conspiracy theory?)
shipping will cause the death of physical format buying unless you are very rich sad
Quote from: Ashmonger on April 11, 2016, 12:49:40 PM
Regarding the above posters last sentence: I've got the feeling that government (in Belgium as well) is dealing with several traditional government companies like this, because they want to get rid of them and want to make space for the free market, but are afraid that just getting rid of them will get too much resistance. (Or is this bordering on conspiracy theory?)
Yes, that is part of it, at least here. The door for competition was opened few years back and after that the national postal service gone to shit. Think that people need to start looking into UPS, DHL and other private courier services. Saddly, some of the parts of their bussiness in Finland are really lacking, for example, UPS don't have any form of locker service or there are really few package centers. I for one hate when packages are brought to door because that means I have to be focusing on that from 8 - 16, just waiting to get the package instead of being able to choose to fetch it from the center on my own time and volition.
In the US, the rate to ship one tape or one cd is $13.50; I think you can probably send 3 items for that amount or not much more. The USPS really stuck it in hard and deep on lightweight packages.
I know some mailorder outfits in the U.S. are using DHL to ship LP packages but I haven't checked their rates yet.
Well, i just did reach #2 relesse and i run non official shoebox label which i do out of passion and not to earn any money.
I am in Germany and it is true, shipping costs from Germany into the whole world are rather modest (if not cheap in comparsion
to the US for example). Anyway. I really like it when people order directly from me but most of the copies go to "bigger" distribution
partners - simple solution since i dont run a distro myself and then chance (and the comfort) for people is way higher if they can
pick my tapes and other stuffs from the same source. I do standart price 7 eu for direct order. Sometimes i have to invest
like 3-4 euro into shipping but since i do mostly small runs (factory made tapes!) i dont get too deep in the red. Just my 2 cents.
As an aside, a few years ago, if not maybe ten years now, online shops were in a frenzy in the USA because there was talk of sales tax being applied on all sales, not only for sales within the same state. The States saw that as missed revenue. B&M shops thought it an unfair advantage to online shopping. Point being: I don't think anyone thought shipping was going to be the downfall of mail commerce. I think Amazon was the first to really take notice of it, which I'm relatively certain was at the core of the impetus to create a drone fleet. As I've said many times, I'm fine with physical product going the way of the Dodo, but I didn't foresee shipping to be such a key factor in its demise.
First of all, I don't see why people who are responsible for making or releasing music which is connected to anti-cultural, against mainstream culture, society, music/art, still are thinking about money, profits, covering costs, and reducing outgoings? Who is thinking about its passion but through the prism of financial gains? Anybody is buying favourite records with thinking how it will be sold in the future?
Also, the effect that social media has had on how tapes are sold - which is very much a factor in the "economy of noise tapes" - is also crushingly apparent for reasons that are both good and bad.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on April 11, 2016, 11:07:01 PM
First of all, I don't see why people who are responsible for making or releasing music which is connected to anti-cultural, against mainstream culture, society, music/art, still are thinking about money, profits, covering costs, and reducing outgoings? Who is thinking about its passion but through the prism of financial gains? Anybody is buying favourite records with thinking how it will be sold in the future?
It looks like you release nice cds. I'll pm you my address and you can send me EVERYTHING because I'm super passionate about them but I have no interest in giving you money or you covering your costs.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on April 11, 2016, 11:07:01 PM
First of all, I don't see why people who are responsible for making or releasing music which is connected to anti-cultural, against mainstream culture, society, music/art, still are thinking about money, profits, covering costs, and reducing outgoings? Who is thinking about its passion but through the prism of financial gains? Anybody is buying favourite records with thinking how it will be sold in the future?
i think the point is this - no one is doing this to get rich, but it is nice to not lose money every time you put out a tape. personally, i get pissed whenever i lose money - if i pay a hooker for a blowjob i may have a great time fucking her mouth, but i'm still not happy about paying for it. losing money when putting out a tape is like getting the blow job but not cumming... its still fun but just not as much, ya know?
in the USA, shipping one tape domestically is
at least $2.50. can't use the media mail trick anymore as the media mail packages are now even more expensive. add 0.50 for the paypal fee... down $3 before you even factor in production costs, which are usually
at least another $3-4... and god forbid anyone actually value their time... so that is why $8 tapes are now the norm... more and more i am starting to see $10+ tapes.... when the cost gets that high its gotta be something i
really want, otherwise i will be more likely to buy a 20 year old classic for the same amount.
i used to get a ton of overseas orders, but with one tape costing $13+ to ship outside of the USA, that has gotten rid of 90% of the international customers. i personally can only very rarely afford to trade overseas.
i used to sell out 90 tapes in a week when i charged $7 per tape... now, for instance, i released a tape buy a SKIN CRIME side project back in february, limited to 67, and still have half of them sitting here... only factor i can imagine dissuading people is the price = $8 within the USA.
There's a difference between covering costs, or possibly even eating $.50-1.00 on an order, vs working in the idea of profit to the price. There's a context to that, too. I wouldn't consider it a problem eating $.50-1.00 on a tape limited to 75 copies, but if it was a record or CD of 500-2000 copies, then that's another level of loss. I'm not saying I would be excited to lose any amount of money, but if I want to be involved, that's an inconsequential cost. As for valuing your time, that's funny and a rabbit hole. I remember working on my label anywhere from 4-5 hours/night and maybe 8 hours a day on the weekends if a release was nearing the end. If I had placed a value on my time, I would have never done it (and had been charging $25 for records in the 90s). Personally, I think it's not only unrealistic, but also lame, goofy, and a few other things. Not pointing fingers. That's how any talk of wage in relation to a small label strikes me. My reward is in being involved, developing relationships, education...the self-fulfillment types of reward. Not that anyone here doesn't know that, but yeah...time and wages...fuck that. Don't talk to me about it, because I feel it makes you sound like a delusional asshole. And if you're trying to pay rent and feed your kids off this, this is obviously a different situation, and I can't relate.
I haven't picked up a tape or 7" in a long time. At $7+, there might be a handful of artists I'd cough up that kind of dough to have, but I also grew up when an LP was $8ppd. To my mind, an $8 C-20 is comedy.
6-7 euros is OK price for a tape, i think. It's the final shipping cost to consumer that sucks, for a single tape and even worse for a single vinyl. Ordering 3-4 items from the same seller is more "comfortable" for me. But really, i am looking my pack of cigarettes - it costs 3.5 euros daily. Should i worry more about it or for the 6-7 euros shipping cost usually 4 tapes have ? [Same continent. Intercontinental shipping costs too expensive, indeed.]
off-topic, but $4 7"s were the best.
Charge whatever for shipping people will still pay
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on April 12, 2016, 12:04:57 AM
It looks like you release nice cds. I'll pm you my address and you can send me EVERYTHING because I'm super passionate about them but I have no interest in giving you money or you covering your costs.
Sorry, but I don't trust you :) There are friends who don't need pay for my releases and get it for free. Besides, I am huge enthusiast of your music and it would be great to know your new or old items which I haven't got, so... maybe trade?
Quote from: collapsedhole on April 12, 2016, 03:03:48 AM
i think the point is this - no one is doing this to get rich, but it is nice to not lose money every time you put out a tape.
Of course, there isn't problem with getting rich. Problem is with concept of "it would be nice to not lose money every time you put out a tape". Where is located this thin line between loosing, refunding and profits?
I'm against to such standard relation to our passion, and cultivating such attitude which is source for that all crippled cultural system which is around us.
In a way I agree with Impulsy. What most people do, involves plenty of trading. Many guys take anything what appears good. I'm assuming everybody sells at loss, if you start to think how much work hours this passion is being invested. These would be default standards of "noise activity", that one doesn't even need to remind about.
However, I'm not talking about passionate artists who exists even if it would be matter of creating 1 master tape of recording which wasn't meant for sale. Or collector who hunts what he likes, regardless of how much effort it requires.
What I have understood from original tape culture and even its usage within industrial scene, was that it was most of all affordable. Without doubt, it therefore includes economic decision of some sort. Like it or not.
It was meant as affordable alternative compared to publishing records. It was meant to reach people who couldn't afford records. It was method of having outlet for stuff that couldn't find even couple hundred people to be interested. But there was still passion to create as well as communicate. One way was to build network. The networks of labels, bands, distributors and people. I still believe, physical format and existence of actual items and network creates other kind of things than lets say, clicking youtube links or discogs buttons.
One can conclude now that due internet, you will find the source you and you just paypal him, so where do you need this "network". And everything is online anyways, so why even bother? I simply disagree and therefore observe the possibilities of such network to exists.
In case of distributor, one may ask what is the passion he should display? I'd rather see people display passion not on their single and directed fetishes for collectibles. Why? That's something what you expect from anyone by default. I'd rather see distributor have passion to build something bigger than him. For example support new name what nobody (yet) knows or cares. It still requires some sort of possibility to break even. That is my assumption. I mean, guy who I don't know, music what I have not heard, lets throw 50 euros to drain just for fun. That is exactly the what I mentioned about yuppification of noise.
Self-absorbed young professionals, earning good pay, enjoying the cultural attractions of sophisticated urban life and thought, and generally out of touch with, indeed antithetical to, most of the challenges and concerns of a far less fortuned.
"oh, so you didn't throw 25,- +shipping for new japanese C-20, all you think is money, not passion"... pfff...
Elitism in counterculture based on nothing but disposable money is pretty faggy, if you ask me. I'm not talking about some bullshit egalitarian principle, but somewhere between here lies questions is there any way tape to serve it's old passion-enabling function as means of distribution in 2016? I think that barely. I'm not at all concerned about rich kids and passionate hoarders. I rather approach it from perspective what originally tape publishing had (unless I'm totally mistaken): reaching some new people. Getting material heard. Having passion to put out stuff nobody (yet) gives a fuck, but could be exposed. It still works, if all is done as well as you could, but doesn't look that bright....
maybe the question is also: what is a tape for you? is it just a format you prefer or is it loaded with some 'esoteric' value? is there a reason why a tape has a different profit margin than a cd when it is (sometimes) more expensive to produce? what is the reason a tape sells for 7 euro while a cd sells for 12?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on April 12, 2016, 09:08:05 AM
"oh, so you didn't throw 25,- +shipping for new japanese C-20, all you think is money, not passion"... pfff...
Elitism in counterculture based on nothing but disposable money is pretty faggy, if you ask me. I'm not talking about some bullshit egalitarian principle, but somewhere between here lies questions is there any way tape to serve it's old passion-enabling function as means of distribution in 2016? I think that barely. I'm not at all concerned about rich kids and passionate hoarders. I rather approach it from perspective what originally tape publishing had (unless I'm totally mistaken): reaching some new people. Getting material heard. Having passion to put out stuff nobody (yet) gives a fuck, but could be exposed. It still works, if all is done as well as you could, but doesn't look that bright....
Too many things to clear up, and my English is so limited...
We aren't able to eliminate extreme examples of human stupidity, swanks etc. They are in every kind of circles, among noise/industrial enthusiasts too.
"It doesn't look that bright" because the world and people aren't perfect. This is a cliche, I know, but should we focus on such "publishers" or "collectors"? Maybe should we think about how we may improve this situation? Is it possible at all? Anyway I have no idea how it could be... Maybe it is time for giving up...
And, last, but not least - maybe a key is located in human/receiver, not in publisher minds? I mean, I consider that the first step should make a receiver, not publisher? Why does publisher/artist need create to receiver's mind, taste and enlightenment?
We should count ourselves lucky... In the Vaporwave scene at the moment tapes are routinely £8+ and that's usually for home dubbed, inkjet-labelled cassettes! These kids don't even seem to realise it's possible to get pro dubbed, pad printed ones made and sell them for <£5. But then again people are actually buying that stuff :D
Quote from: Cementimental on April 12, 2016, 01:37:36 PM
These kids don't even seem to realise it's possible to get pro dubbed, pad printed ones made and sell them for <£5. But then again people are actually buying that stuff :D
I know about pro dubbed cassettes but I prefer doing it by myself. I guess that I use the better cassettes and I use higher quality of recording. I prefer to do the rest process of printing too. Usually I sell it for 5-6 EU.
the more you grow up the less you want at least for me whole tape cd lp etc market will die 100% sure of it soon was good when it lasted futur is digital release even if some do not like it it will be as us old fuck will die young one will take the place and it will be idea from another old time they will not give a shit about it too lol
Quote from: Cementimental on April 12, 2016, 01:37:36 PM
We should count ourselves lucky... In the Vaporwave scene at the moment tapes are routinely £8+ and that's usually for home dubbed, inkjet-labelled cassettes! These kids don't even seem to realise it's possible to get pro dubbed, pad printed ones made and sell them for <£5. But then again people are actually buying that stuff :D
Christ, I'm glad I don't listen to that garbage. 8 pounds for slowed down 80's pop is 8 pounds too much.
Quote from: Bleak Existence on April 12, 2016, 02:17:24 PM
the more you grow up the less you want at least for me whole tape cd lp etc market will die 100% sure of it soon was good when it lasted futur is digital release even if some do not like it it will be as us old fuck will die young one will take the place and it will be idea from another old time they will not give a shit about it too lol
I'm probably one of the younger people on the forum, and I still enjoy physical media. I truly believe that there will always be a market for tapes etc. because some people will always prefer to hold shit in their hands, as opposed to paying for ones and zeros.
does anyone take the length of a tape into consideration when comparing price/value ?
C10 <> C15 <> C20 <>...
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on April 12, 2016, 02:08:22 PM
Quote from: Cementimental on April 12, 2016, 01:37:36 PM
These kids don't even seem to realise it's possible to get pro dubbed, pad printed ones made and sell them for <£5. But then again people are actually buying that stuff :D
I know about pro dubbed cassettes but I prefer doing it by myself. I guess that I use the better cassettes and I use higher quality of recording. I prefer to do the rest process of printing too. Usually I sell it for 5-6 EU.
This! Oftentimes, dubbing plants offer worse quality than can be achieved with self-dubbed tapes on Chrome (of course, not always). The assumption that factory production equals better quality is not always true.
Quote from: urall on April 12, 2016, 03:45:32 PM
does anyone take the length of a tape into consideration when comparing price/value ?
C10 <> C15 <> C20 <>...
All depends on the type and quality of the sound on the tape. Some types of noise fit better on short tapes while some on longer. For example, even an idea of dead body love c10 sounds ridiculous while that format would be fine for some fast paced burst of noise. In the end, the value comes from the quality, not quantity.
Am I missing the point here or is the whole thing a nostalgia trip in a market of increasingly diminishing returns?
Quote from: cantle on April 12, 2016, 05:47:40 PM
Am I missing the point here or is the whole thing a nostalgia trip in a market of increasingly diminishing returns?
Perhaps?
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on April 12, 2016, 07:32:53 AM
And, last, but not least - maybe a key is located in human/receiver, not in publisher minds? I mean, I consider that the first step should make a receiver, not publisher? Why does publisher/artist need create to receiver's mind, taste and enlightenment?
Well, in my mind, artists work for himself most of all. But publisher/distributors is for audience. Anyone who manufactures 100 tapes, isn't doing it "just for himself", but c. 100 other people?
Quote from: WCrap on April 12, 2016, 11:54:55 AM
maybe the question is also: what is a tape for you? is it just a format you prefer or is it loaded with some 'esoteric' value? is there a reason why a tape has a different profit margin than a cd when it is (sometimes) more expensive to produce? what is the reason a tape sells for 7 euro while a cd sells for 12?
In my humble opinion, tape isn't just cool novelty item, but actually with real purpose and many advantages, therefore it seems unfortunate that it no longer would be possible.
I may be one of very few people, who doesn't really like that much whole "pro-tape" thing taking over noise. It connects all to why tape and other formats have been priced different. It connects to hectic consumerism. It connects to tape as method of quick revenue, than long lasting
cultural work or what it should be called. I guess someone already hinted towards it with "how tapes are sold nowadays" -remark.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on April 12, 2016, 07:03:30 PM
Well, in my mind, artists work for himself most of all.
I suppose what you meant, but this case is more complicated. A work without receivers isn't art, it's nothing... There must be "communication", or, at least, any a little relation...
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on April 12, 2016, 07:03:30 PM
But publisher/distributors is for audience. Anyone who manufactures 100 tapes, isn't doing it "just for himself", but c. 100 other people?
Holy words. Question is: who should hunt up: publishers vs. receivers, or receivers vs. publishers? Who should fine-tune to others? Receivers to publishers? Or publishers to receivers? I have noticed that in pop culture and in many noise/industrial circles is dominating this second option. In my opinion this is wrong way.
Quote from: VelvetCurtain on April 11, 2016, 11:51:31 PM
Also, the effect that social media has had on how tapes are sold - which is very much a factor in the "economy of noise tapes" - is also crushingly apparent for reasons that are both good and bad.
This. You used to be able to list your new releases on one or two messages boards and sell them out relatively quickly. Now there is virtually no message board discussion. It's all on facebook and bandcamp and other social platforms which is a weird landscape to navigate. I haven't quite figured it out and don't particularly like it.
Also - regarding James' comment about the slow sales of his Collapsed Hole tapes, I don't think it's simply shipping price (or price generally). Things have just ebbed as far as general interest goes, especially compared to 10 years ago, and even more especially for harsh noise / pe / things in that vein. My US sales have gone down every year while my international sales have remained relatively steady, which makes no sense given how much international shipping costs have gone up.
Quote from: New Forces on April 12, 2016, 08:57:14 PM
Quote from: VelvetCurtain on April 11, 2016, 11:51:31 PM
Also, the effect that social media has had on how tapes are sold - which is very much a factor in the "economy of noise tapes" - is also crushingly apparent for reasons that are both good and bad.
This. You used to be able to list your new releases on one or two messages boards and sell them out relatively quickly. Now there is virtually no message board discussion. It's all on facebook and bandcamp and other social platforms which is a weird landscape to navigate. I haven't quite figured it out and don't particularly like it.
yup, i used to hit here, noisefanatics, pure stench and usually foreverdoomed or NWN or something like that and be at least half sold out of a batch in a week.
doesn't work like that anymore. i'm all over facebook but that's becoming an increasingly frustrating way to promote, because unless you want to throw down five bucks a day, no one's gonna see your shit. and even if you do pay, which i have done, the extra people who see your post(s) are not always people who are actually interested in it. the whole algorithm is fucked.
i still promote in all of these places, and most things still sell fairly well, but it's not like it was just a few years ago.
i say we just go back to mailorder catalogs...
Personally I find mailing lists are a good option. I post about new releases on forums, I don't really use facebook much, I do post a little about releases on there but have no idea if it gets news out to many people. I have no idea about paying facebook money to make your posts show up more. As it's hard to keep track of everything personally use watch lists on certain artists I like on discogs which is pretty good.
I don't think psychical format is going to die anytime soon, not while old fucks are still around that prefer having the release in their hands.
I don't think too much about the amount of time I spend making releases as it's a passion, that is the reason I do it, I love working with artists I admire and love working in darker style that I don't get to do in my day job. Any money I do make from selling releases or distro stuff will go into next releases or to other labels buying their tapes or getting more stuff for my distro. I like the sort of recycling nature of that. I pay my bills from my day job not from the stuff I release.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on April 12, 2016, 09:08:05 AM
What I have understood from original tape culture and even its usage within industrial scene, was that it was most of all affordable. Without doubt, it therefore includes economic decision of some sort. Like it or not.
It was meant as affordable alternative compared to publishing records. It was meant to reach people who couldn't afford records. It was method of having outlet for stuff that couldn't find even couple hundred people to be interested. But there was still passion to create as well as communicate. One way was to build network. The networks of labels, bands, distributors and people.
This is a great point (and one that didn't occur to me while reading the original post). Mail art projects. Punk labels willing to fill C-90s with as many of their releases as would fit for the same price as a single release. Various cultures of music sending stacks of J-cards and a single master cassette to save costs with trading and at the distro level (I still think this is a very smart and under-used method of trading and exposure; one which I found most used by the Japanese and South Americans).
Convenience has a predictable consequence: laziness. It's common for people to harp on youtube/bandcamp/download as a lazy way of listening and experiencing. Not directly related, but from the same generational aspect, pro-dubbed tapes that eliminate the possibility for resourcefulness and more affordable pricing has an element of laziness as well. FreakAnimal's point strikes me as hinting at one of the main roots of DIY culture;
resourcefulness. A lot of that came out of necessity, but it was also a fun, welcomed prod to be creative and resourceful. You can't afford printing, so you create a style and aesthetic at the photocopy machine. You can't afford pro-cassettes, so you re-use cassettes from various sources, including dumpstering behind the pro-dub manufacturing plant. Packaging re-using junk. Thrifted used cassette decks. Some of these things are no longer possible, but many of them are.
It comes down to homogenizing of perspectives. Convenience stores. Walmart. One-stop shopping. The perspective that their is one way and not an infinite number of ways to arrive at the same place. More labor, but also more creativity and use of materials to arrive at a smaller cost and price. A mirror of the times, like when Craig Stecyk offered that great insight, "Skaters by their very nature are urban guerillas: they make everyday use of the useless artifacts of the technological burden, and employ the handiwork of the government/corporate structure in a thousand ways that the original architects could never dream of." In 2016, we don't think like that.
Our (Canadian) dollar is so shit, plus the increase on postage in the past few years means (looking from the other side) I cannot afford to support all the artists I like. It's frustrating for the consumer not only related to the "gotta have those kvlt vinyl/tapes) but from a position of wanting to help out artists I think are doing great things cover costs. Ordering from specific labels? Forget it. I'm now making bulk orders through a few labels who do wholesale and getting a giant box every 2 months.
I wanted to order a tape from a US label, $8 for the tape plus $9 shipping works out to over $30 Canadian - I simply can't justify it any more. Thankfully I can order direct from The Rita so I always get my harsh fix....
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on April 12, 2016, 07:21:08 PM
I suppose what you meant, but this case is more complicated. A work without receivers isn't art, it's nothing... There must be "communication", or, at least, any a little relation...
My assumption is that painting is still work of art, even if it never leaves painters studio? Same as noise created, is noise despite not for audience. I have tons of recordings which never have been meant for "audience". At least not as-it-is. It's creation has not happened in intent to communicate with audience. However, irrelevant in this discussion and never-ending topic in art history anyways...
Original opening post, was not meant as coherent opening. Just some random thoughts and hitting enter to get topic started. One shouldn't get stuck on words like "economy" (= production, distribution, or trade, and consumption of goods and services by different agents in a given geographical location. Which could mean simply two guys trading noise tapes). Calculations of financial matters is not complaint that there is no profit margin, but hoping to indicate that I don't blame labels for asking price they do as this is what it can cost so they (or we) don't put 10,- to tape out of greed, but perhaps simply out of necessity. Money itself is not so crucial issue, as it has hardly ever been in "underground" and should be even less.
I'll see if I have time later on to expand comments more to direction what Zeno Marx and Impulsy Stetoskopu has pointed out.
Well, i do "pro tapes" only. Means, the tapes will get duplicated at a factory here in Germany and send to me. I do the inserts myself and as of the
second release, i did the print on tape body myself too. I like to do this. I like to invest time into doing it and i dont care that i actually loose money
over it. I am into it out of passion and i give a fuck about what people think about it. If you dont like my releases, if you dont like Staalwaart way
of things, just stay away. I have a website and email adress. That is my way of doing it. I dont need any social media networkd or other fancy shit.
If a edition of 50 copies i gone within a month then it is fine. If it takes a year it is fine too.
Quote from: Staalwaart on April 13, 2016, 09:00:12 PM
Well, i do "pro tapes" only. Means, the tapes will get duplicated at a factory here in Germany and send to me. I do the inserts myself and as of the
second release, i did the print on tape body myself too. I like to do this. I like to invest time into doing it and i dont care that i actually loose money
over it. I am into it out of passion and i give a fuck about what people think about it. If you dont like my releases, if you dont like Staalwaart way
of things, just stay away. I have a website and email adress. That is my way of doing it. I dont need any social media networkd or other fancy shit.
If a edition of 50 copies i gone within a month then it is fine. If it takes a year it is fine too.
Agree with this. One question - how do you do the print on tape body? Is this special machine or transfer type thing?
Quote from: Si Clark on April 14, 2016, 01:02:40 AM
Quote from: Staalwaart on April 13, 2016, 09:00:12 PM
Well, i do "pro tapes" only. Means, the tapes will get duplicated at a factory here in Germany and send to me. I do the inserts myself and as of the
second release, i did the print on tape body myself too. I like to do this. I like to invest time into doing it and i dont care that i actually loose money
over it. I am into it out of passion and i give a fuck about what people think about it. If you dont like my releases, if you dont like Staalwaart way
of things, just stay away. I have a website and email adress. That is my way of doing it. I dont need any social media networkd or other fancy shit.
If a edition of 50 copies i gone within a month then it is fine. If it takes a year it is fine too.
Agree with this. One question - how do you do the print on tape body? Is this special machine or transfer type thing?
For the 2nd release (POP-COC ,check new release section for a pic) i got two individual made stamps. One with the projects name (front) and
another one with the labels name (back). I did bought special stamp ink for plastic and a ink pad which can hold this type of ink. Then just stamp the
sides manually. The outcome looks simple but i like it. Because of the whole process and different ammount of ink each time (very, very slightly different) each one looks a bit different in terms of ink scatter. Great side effect.
Quote from: Staalwaart on April 14, 2016, 10:01:36 AM
For the 2nd release (POP-COC ,check new release section for a pic) i got two individual made stamps. One with the projects name (front) and
another one with the labels name (back). I did bought special stamp ink for plastic and a ink pad which can hold this type of ink. Then just stamp the
sides manually. The outcome looks simple but i like it. Because of the whole process and different ammount of ink each time (very, very slightly different) each one looks a bit different in terms of ink scatter. Great side effect.
Thanks for the information.
Some friend ordered from rubberstamp company custom made logo stamp, which had some sort of alcohol based ink inside. Like mentioned above, this type of ink is suitable for stamping plastic. Normal water based ink will never dry on plastic.
I think he mentioned that it was around 30usd and ink was supposed to last few hundred thousand stampings..
Quote from: Zeno Marx on April 12, 2016, 11:28:47 PM
Convenience has a predictable consequence: laziness. It's common for people to harp on youtube/bandcamp/download as a lazy way of listening and experiencing. Not directly related, but from the same generational aspect, pro-dubbed tapes that eliminate the possibility for resourcefulness and more affordable pricing has an element of laziness as well. FreakAnimal's point strikes me as hinting at one of the main roots of DIY culture; resourcefulness.
It comes down to homogenizing of perspectives. Convenience stores. Walmart. One-stop shopping. The perspective that their is one way and not an infinite number of ways to arrive at the same place. More labor, but also more creativity and use of materials to arrive at a smaller cost and price. A mirror of the times, like when Craig Stecyk offered that great insight, "Skaters by their very nature are urban guerillas: they make everyday use of the useless artifacts of the technological burden, and employ the handiwork of the government/corporate structure in a thousand ways that the original architects could never dream of." In 2016, we don't think like that.
I should also mention that I do appreciate also
other ways of handling tapes than cheap, available and long term presence, even if that is something I'd prefer.
Sometimes it is valid point to make exclusive, limited, special. And of course pricey if it requires that to make it happen. Sometimes it is valid to make a batch and move on. Not pretend as if everything is here to stay forever, but something to capture the "heat of the moment", so to say, hah...
But myself, and so many friends I know, are quite annoying that even if being pretty much fanatical followers, still, stuff you really wait for, just comes and goes in blink of an eye. Impossible to get for tolerable price.
I can't understand bands who'd have like X amount of "followers" and then they make release on label what makes half of that amount or less.
Perhaps label who puts out items constantly, and every time you ask, items are sold out. Tapes you had to know to exist, before it existed, so you can reserve it in advance. I know one doesn't need to own everything and labels can't be expected to be able to inform everybody, but still there are certain hints what makes some operations remind more of modern consumer manipulation gimmicks, rather than the industrial counter culture sort of thing...
Then as other alternative, you got something like RRR selling Nurse With Wound tapes. You ask Ron, who is pretty much retired man, and he replies in day, and got the tape still in stock for 6usd, what he has had in stock
for 25 years.
I fully realize, everybody does what they can. At least seemingly. However, I doubt many consider options what they are. They are simply stuck on idea that has dominated for several years now. Small batch, quick cash, no trade, no communication, pay-now-buttons here and fuck off to any "networking", tapes disappear as fast as they emerged...? 30% of them listed on discogs with nice little extra fee.
If that's only way one gets it done, then fine, but especially for those who have options, I'd always urge to consider other ways that might be worth it. What I think many people appreciated with tapes, was personality, first-hand involvement, some sort of uniqueness, etc. The more tapes transform to be just the exact same cello-wrapped commodity, it gets quite far from those qualities.
Quote from: Si Clark on April 14, 2016, 01:02:40 AM
Agree with this. One question - how do you do the print on tape body? Is this special machine or transfer type thing?
You might be able to make something as simple as a potato stamp and use oil-based house paint or white-out (test that it doesn't just flake off). There must be hundreds of ways to create a stamp. I also remember there being some kind of cork tile that you could carve with X-acto tools to make your own prints, like wood printing. I can't remember what that material or process is called. An art supply, or craft store, staff has to be an endless resource of information.
Personally, at this point, investment and revenue is something I don't want to be concerned anymore, that's why I am only just releasing my own projects on my own label in cheap diy ways (bulk tapes and xeroxed covers), and I am not selling anything, rather trades or gifts... I think economical issues are usually a heavy distraction from the most important thing for me, which is creating the objects and focusing on making my own shit in my own way... without pretentiousness, just looking for freedom of action... no time wasted on promotion as I don't need to get any revenue, I do this for passion so I invest what I consider it is worth and I am just glad to get my stuff heard by a little network of friends... that's enough for me... I know that my shit being not available for everyone will cause no harm or frustration hehe ;) anyway anyone interested in it may ask for it personally, I have no problems for that... I hope it doesn't seem selfish by my side, I am just trying to be practical with my limited available spare time...
In the other hand, I keep buying records from labels and distributors around and try to get batchs of stuff to get advantage on postage costs and not a bleeding for a single tape overseas, I think that's the formula, I really believe in physical stuff and I really hope it doesn't disappear... I believe the main role here who is responsible in keeping it alive is the buyer/consumer, only if that much people stopped complaining about high prices and noticed that if you like this scene and you want it to last you must be a support... and them understanding that this world system nowadays is trying to lead the sheeps to their interests, to the mainstream markets...
Please, do not stop buying records/tapes and supporting labels/artist this way just for the chance of having a lot of noise online... online industrial culture is has an awful aroma for me... sorry old cunt here, it is true... but the essence I appreciate is not on internet or in complaining...
Quote from: manuelM on April 15, 2016, 01:05:31 AM
Personally, at this point, investment and revenue is something I don't want to be concerned anymore, that's why I am only just releasing my own projects on my own label in cheap diy ways (bulk tapes and xeroxed covers), and I am not selling anything, rather trades or gifts...
This is something I agree with. Since we're all getting nostalgic about "the good old days" it's worth remembering that tapes were neither mass consumer products or "fetish" items, they were a simple expedience that was within the means of whoever used them. A means to an
ends. Any fancy-schmancy packaging was more at the whim of whoever was putting the tape together - there were plenty of simple, utilitarian covers on tapes. This isn't just the Industrial scene, during the 1980's and '90's there were loads of people making their own sounds. Industrial just overlapped with it. The home taping movement was huge.
Now, of course, everyone looks back on those days with some hue of romanticism and these days tapes
are mass consumer products or fetish items (no difference). They've become means in themselves. Redundant means, too. If I buy a tape it isn't an endorsement of the physical media, it's because I want the sounds on it. Put that stuff online and you can keep the tapes, I'll get the download.
The only exceptions to that I can think of are what Manuel's already stated, or using tapes in a kind of clandestine way, ie leaving them around public places for the curious to pick up. Something like that, something either personal or creative. But tapes for the sake of tapes, pointless.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on April 13, 2016, 08:13:24 AM
My assumption is that painting is still work of art, even if it never leaves painters studio? Same as noise created, is noise despite not for audience. I have tons of recordings which never have been meant for "audience". At least not as-it-is. It's creation has not happened in intent to communicate with audience. However, irrelevant in this discussion and never-ending topic in art history anyways...
I have got different look at this problem. But yes, this isn't good place and time for exploration this case at this moment.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on April 13, 2016, 08:13:24 AM
Original opening post, was not meant as coherent opening. Just some random thoughts and hitting enter to get topic started. One shouldn't get stuck on words like "economy" (= production, distribution, or trade, and consumption of goods and services by different agents in a given geographical location. Which could mean simply two guys trading noise tapes). Calculations of financial matters is not complaint that there is no profit margin, but hoping to indicate that I don't blame labels for asking price they do as this is what it can cost so they (or we) don't put 10,- to tape out of greed, but perhaps simply out of necessity. Money itself is not so crucial issue, as it has hardly ever been in "underground" and should be even less.
I could ask: is there any method/way for better integration our circles? I guess that only total consolidation can save this "economy of noise - tapes (CDs, LPs etc.)". I suppose that your SPECIAL INTERESTS is the last place where people with similar taste and expectations, can exchange, not only info about news, but, first of all, its thoughts, ideas and concepts. If this place dies there will not set up a new one so active... I don't see, at this moment, younger people/generations who have got power and so big passion... So, if our music/art wants to survive, there is need to change many things, mentality (of artists, publishers and receivers) and system of distribution....
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 16, 2016, 04:43:14 AM
Now, of course, everyone looks back on those days with some hue of romanticism and these days tapes are mass consumer products or fetish items (no difference). They've become means in themselves. Redundant means, too. If I buy a tape it isn't an endorsement of the physical media, it's because I want the sounds on it. Put that stuff online and you can keep the tapes, I'll get the download.
Well, I don't really feel cassettes are that kind of mass consumer items nowadays... maybe it was even more like that in the past, nowadays they have become a rarity item and therefore their price has increased... I used to press some runs in Tapeline in the past (2009-2011) and I didn't felt happy with the result of doing it it at all, the whole investement was around 4.50 Euro per copy at the end, that was actually a flat rate with no profit when I was willing to sell them for 5 Euro, at that point a tape costing 6 Euro was considered expensive from the consumer view, and we're talking of 1 Euro of a pro-dubbed tape! by the way the pro-dubbing process wasn't all gold... I notice I can make better dubs with new technics decks on bulk TDK or Saehan tapes... why then the hassle? for the proffessional aesthetic? fuck it! I believe it is all about the sounds... or at least it should be...
Anyway when I play the role of a consumer I can understand a tape costing 6 or 7 Euro, no big deal, maybe because I experienced the problem from the inside... but maybe who doesn't know this economical issues that close might see frustrating that tapes are in few years increasing that much their price from 4 to 7 Euro.
What you mention about the internet, well, this internet spreading is more a hassle for me than keep doing things the way I am used to... and not only because of that.. also I want to think that sounds get better on a tape...
Quote from: manuelM on April 17, 2016, 12:08:29 AM
Well, I don't really feel cassettes are that kind of mass consumer items nowadays...
I didn't mean in the general sense of the word, I meant in terms of the "economics" of the Noise/etc. scene. In this little world, tapes very much are mass consumer items. Have a look in the new releases section of this forum.
Quote from: manuelM on April 17, 2016, 12:08:29 AM
also I want to think that sounds get better on a tape...
How can a tape sound better than the digital master file? Different, probably. "better"? Not likely.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on April 17, 2016, 03:55:53 AM
Quote from: manuelM on April 17, 2016, 12:08:29 AM
also I want to think that sounds get better on a tape...
How can a tape sound better than the digital master file? Different, probably. "better"? Not likely.
Well... It's matter of semantics. If you consider
better in similar way as clarity of high resolution digital photo vs. optical photograph on film. Yes, seemingly. Latest states of development and least affected to anomalies that distort it somehow.. But still, in case of art or creative work, so many people suddenly don't consider it better, as those are not the qualities that are used in measuring. It's been laughed by industry professionals how decades were spent to best clarity sharpness and exact colors and still vast amounts of people like it
better with vintage tweaking colors/blurs that appears better to them.
Better meaning, not latest technical developments, but something
more appropriate. I mean, Special Interests issues 1-... was it 8 included "tape noise" article. You could compile few dozens artists explain their view why tape is better or The best. As method of making and as method of publishing.
This is one of the things what I referred when I earlier said, that tape is not just niche curiosity, but relevant format. All one needs to do, is basically get tapes and find out. What I mean, is basically that every tape you get, sounds vastly better than digital online samples. This has been discussed with some people before, that it is kind of foolish to put 5 minutes sample track online, made of digital file, if the tape you will get, sound will be different. That being better. For noise at least. Of course going down to quality of dubbing, quality of tape and type of material.
Of course one can say that the lossless file made of that particular tape, is just as good. I'm fine with that. But a lot of modern stuff where it all operates on digital environment, being released on tape, may be the first and only step where material gains actual punch, loudness and saturation. Melts into solid noise brutality instead of layers of tinny compromises. That said, tape doesn't sound mandatory. It seems more like "mastering tool", just like driving things through tube-preamps or such. Not being mandatory, but still being simplest way to make noise sound better if you don't have other means to do it in process of making.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on April 16, 2016, 08:59:10 AM
I could ask: is there any method/way for better integration our circles? I guess that only total consolidation can save this "economy of noise - tapes (CDs, LPs etc.)". I suppose that your SPECIAL INTERESTS is the last place where people with similar taste and expectations, can exchange, not only info about news, but, first of all, its thoughts, ideas and concepts. If this place dies there will not set up a new one so active... I don't see, at this moment, younger people/generations who have got power and so big passion... So, if our music/art wants to survive, there is need to change many things, mentality (of artists, publishers and receivers) and system of distribution....
There is no one coherent idea where "scene should go". It's just chaos of multiple ideas that exists. Not everybody needs to
change. Even if we'd see 3-5 good noise labels operate little bit more like Sound of Pig, MSNP, Open Wound, RRR, and couple more distributors who don't give up in front of "lack of demand", it could be good.
Special Interests was started when I thought that forum before was becoming sucky. Everybody keeps saying forums are dead, but I doubt anytime soon. There had been some attempts to take down SI forum this year, but was solved. At least for me, this is one of the main places to find about new & old releases. And I'm glad to pay the bills if it helps networking. Labels/traders/bands whatever and offer other platform than for example facebook/discogs..
Quote from: Zeno Marx on April 17, 2016, 03:55:53 AM
Quote from: manuelM on April 17, 2016, 12:08:29 AM
also I want to think that sounds get better on a tape...
How can a tape sound better than the digital master file? Different, probably. "better"? Not likely.
I believe the emphasis should be on "I want to think". I understand Mikko's point but it's all subjective. It's not impossible for pristine wave files to still convey a warm, rugged, even filthy sound, and it's certainly not impossible for tapes to betray the original files. Personal case in point - Kevlar's "Criteria", on tape, I found somewhat lacklustre compared to previous releases, whereas the same material on dvd the material jumped out at me more, soundwise, and made more sense. I don't doubt for a second for others it would be the other way around.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 17, 2016, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: Zeno Marx on April 17, 2016, 03:55:53 AM
Quote from: manuelM on April 17, 2016, 12:08:29 AM
also I want to think that sounds get better on a tape...
How can a tape sound better than the digital master file? Different, probably. "better"? Not likely.
I believe the emphasis should be on "I want to think". I understand Mikko's point but it's all subjective. It's not impossible for pristine wave files to still convey a warm, rugged, even filthy sound, and it's certainly not impossible for tapes to betray the original files. Personal case in point - Kevlar's "Criteria", on tape, I found somewhat lacklustre compared to previous releases, whereas the same material on dvd the material jumped out at me more, soundwise, and made more sense. I don't doubt for a second for others it would be the other way around.
I think its also a matter of certain sounds. Some releases, that are more dirty and raw, sound better on tape whereas more clean and constructed releases sound better on cd/LP. For example, I can't imagine listening to IRM on tape but I'd rather listen to XE on tape than cd.
It has to do with what someone asks from the sound / music and even that it's not the same for every genre. For example, i definetely believe harsh noise sounds better on tape than digital. More natural to me. Probably it has to do with that Mikko wrote about the sounds melt together. Also when i listen to harsh noise it's not fidelity / clarity i seek for, come on ! I can't say the same for other genres like ambient or techno related.
Even if we accept generally tape doesn't sound perfect [Sure, it doesn't] , was / is / will be the cheapest medium. Easier to produce / buy. So valuable for both artists / labels and consumers sides. And please don't tell me about digital downloads being even cheaper / free. They are a dangerous convenience. Even though i am new here, i bet this forum wouldn't exist if it was all about digital downloads. I bet sales of a physical release going down when download is available, unless it's a "big name" or "fetish item" [Judging from my personal consumer behaviour. I might be wrong]. And i am quite sure if ever physical dies, gradually the genres of our interest here will die too.
- Or in terms of producing it's the CD cheaper ? I have no idea. Judging by the selling prices it's not and now i m wondering why. To me CD looks far cheaper than a tape as material, as producing hours, as producing equipment needed. -
Quote from: Theodore on April 17, 2016, 12:56:33 PM
- Or in terms of producing it's the CD cheaper ? I have no idea. Judging by the selling prices it's not and now i m wondering why. To me CD looks far cheaper than a tape as material, as producing hours, as producing equipment needed. -
In Low runs, Tape is a Lot cheaper than CD.
Quote from: Goat93 on April 17, 2016, 01:17:45 PM
In Low runs, Tape is a Lot cheaper than CD.
Yes, after my previous post i searched the web and read few things about the glass master proccess. Makes sense now.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 17, 2016, 10:43:49 AM
Quote from: Zeno Marx on April 17, 2016, 03:55:53 AM
Quote from: manuelM on April 17, 2016, 12:08:29 AM
also I want to think that sounds get better on a tape...
How can a tape sound better than the digital master file? Different, probably. "better"? Not likely.
I believe the emphasis should be on "I want to think". I understand Mikko's point but it's all subjective. It's not impossible for pristine wave files to still convey a warm, rugged, even filthy sound, and it's certainly not impossible for tapes to betray the original files. Personal case in point - Kevlar's "Criteria", on tape, I found somewhat lacklustre compared to previous releases, whereas the same material on dvd the material jumped out at me more, soundwise, and made more sense. I don't doubt for a second for others it would be the other way around.
Of course wav file can sound anything, as it is matter what you put on computer. It can already have all the characteristics what are benefits of tape as they are utilized in making the music. For example achieved in process of recording on tape in first place, or used in mastering process. What I remember from Kevlar talking about their methods of recording, they go through long process of processing sound through various equipment, with clear intent and precision. It's not like kaos-pad line-in to computer.
As mentioned, I see some artists appear quite clueless or not caring of fine detail, and tape simply made/make their stuff sound much better than basically all the stuff what is on CD or file. It's not that tape would be mandatory or only way. Simply that it was one of easiest way to achieve certain things in music or noise, that you didn't need some guy who has mastering tools, effects and knowledge or vision, but it happens almost by accident. Simply by turning recording input a notch louder, hah..
Quote from: Zeno Marx on April 17, 2016, 03:55:53 AM
digital master file
I want to be clear about this. I meant sounds recorded digitally; the source, master files being digital. Unless they've specifically been EQed/mastered for a particular non-digital format, I'm skeptical of them sounding better on an analog format. If you're throwing the same master at LP/tape/CD, then
better isn't likely. Subjective? Yes. Of course, the artist could intend on the degradation of dubbing to cassette to be the last in their processing. Personally, I think that would be silly, but it's a possibility. I'd still prefer to hear the digital master in that instance. Getting sidetracked. Sorry.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on April 17, 2016, 08:18:24 PM
Quote from: Zeno Marx on April 17, 2016, 03:55:53 AM
digital master file
I want to be clear about this. I meant sounds recorded digitally; the source, master files being digital. Unless they've specifically been EQed/mastered for a particular non-digital format, I'm skeptical of them sounding better on an analog format. If you're throwing the same master at LP/tape/CD, then better isn't likely. Subjective? Yes. Of course, the artist could intend on the degradation of dubbing to cassette to be the last in their processing. Personally, I think that would be silly, but it's a possibility. I'd still prefer to hear the digital master in that instance. Getting sidetracked. Sorry.
I get the idea and agree with it that tape can sound better. Specifically in cases where the original master doesn't sound powerful enough (in the case of harsh noise for example). The same can happen with vinyl - the minor distortions etc. can in some cases make it better than CD.
It's a risky thing to count on, though. Too many variables in the equation if one considers the case from the point of view of sound. I'd say CD/digital is much better for delivering the sound as
intended. Working with tape when mastering and transferring the positive aspects of tape to digital would probably be the best solution in many cases. Simply for the reason that people often have so shitty sound systems. The CD option may still sound alright, even if the final result varies of course from home to home, but considering the quality of players people use to listen to their tapes nowadays... Jesus Christ. The variables expand. Ideally everyone would be using Nakamichi or whatever, but surprisingly many use some shitty boomboxes or crappy old Walkmans connected to their stereo systems, heh! In that case all equing or whatever can be thrown out of window.
Quote from: Salamanauhat on April 18, 2016, 02:15:31 PM
It's a risky thing to count on, though. Too many variables in the equation if one considers the case from the point of view of sound. I'd say CD/digital is much better for delivering the sound as intended. Working with tape when mastering and transferring the positive aspects of tape to digital would probably be the best solution in many cases. Simply for the reason that people often have so shitty sound systems. The CD option may still sound alright, even if the final result varies of course from home to home, but considering the quality of players people use to listen to their tapes nowadays... Jesus Christ. The variables expand. Ideally everyone would be using Nakamichi or whatever, but surprisingly many use some shitty boomboxes or crappy old Walkmans connected to their stereo systems, heh! In that case all equing or whatever can be thrown out of window.
Agree completely. But we can sit here and debate sound quality all day long, while the real problem is that CDs aren't selling in this community anymore (or in any music genre for that matter). Any future physical releases I do are going to have to be on tape because of this hatred of CDs that's cropped up. Several distributors I've spoken to have refused to carry even
replicated CDs anymore, and I can't really blame them because they just don't sell as well as tapes. I do enjoy tapes, more so these days than ever. But I do often feel like I'm being forced into it, which is ironic for a medium that's supposed to be about being democratic and accessible. On that note, CD-Rs are are generally cheaper per unit than cassettes for small runs, and a burner costs $30 or less now. Plus most people probably already have a device in their house that plays CDs - no need to buy any new equipment! So is it really about affordability and accessibility? Or is it about fashion?
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 16, 2016, 04:43:14 AM
Now, of course, everyone looks back on those days with some hue of romanticism and these days tapes are mass consumer products or fetish items (no difference). They've become means in themselves. Redundant means, too. If I buy a tape it isn't an endorsement of the physical media, it's because I want the sounds on it. Put that stuff online and you can keep the tapes, I'll get the download.
The problem with digital (and the main advantage with physical) is that there is no way to sell digital files without signing your rights away to your own work. Any hosting site you sell through essentially owns your work - full stop. (I recall our past discussion about bandcamp in particular). Physical is literally the only way to retain the rights to your own work. Which is a sad state of affairs, and one that I don't wish to support. For all my grumbling about the tape thing above, I'd sooner buy (and have gladly bought) numerous tapes directly from an artist, rather than ever give more money to companies trying their damnedest to trample on artists' rights.
Quote from: SinkSlopProcessing on April 19, 2016, 03:21:27 AM
So is it really about affordability and accessibility? Or is it about fashion?
There's this notion that cdrs don't reflect any serious intention on the artist's part. I suppose a lot of that has to do with how many cdrs were floating around the Noise scene around the start of the '00's, too many of them just being tossed-off pieces of crap. Of course, a great many cassettes prior to the '00's were also tossed-off pieces of crap (not to mention a great many vinyl releases) but tapes have a higher aesthetic cache so unfortunately the stigma has stuck.
There's also the argument that cdrs don't last as long as glass master cds. There's been all sorts of to-and-fro-ing on forums like this about that issue. I tend to think storage is the issue there, but while it's a reasonable criticism of cdrs I don't think it's a reasonable argument for never having anything to do with them.
And, having thought about your valid points about signing away rights, I still maintain Bandcamp and other host sites are the best option. I don't feel my rights are threatened by either Bandcamp or SoundCloud and I don't believe labels like Tesco Germany, Seasons Of Mist, Old Captain, or individual artists like Lustmord or Bizarre Uproar, all who have Bandcamp pages, feel their rights are threatened either. And they aren't the only host sites, either. I don't know, for example, what the deal is with Archive.org but I don't think anyone signs their rights away to them. When you go through a third party, there has to be give-and-take, even if it's an underground label.
I've also often wondered that if people are prepared to sink good money into runs of physical items, why not start up their own website and upload their own material to that? A yearly fee could be just as costly as five hundred copies of a tape or vinyl lp, surely? I haven't looked into prices myself, though, so I could be wrong, but I think it could still be an option.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 19, 2016, 04:31:15 AM
And, having thought about your valid points about signing away rights, I still maintain Bandcamp and other host sites are the best option. I don't feel my rights are threatened by either Bandcamp or SoundCloud and I don't believe labels like Tesco Germany, Seasons Of Mist, Old Captain, or individual artists like Lustmord or Bizarre Uproar, all who have Bandcamp pages, feel their rights are threatened either. And they aren't the only host sites, either. I don't know, for example, what the deal is with Archive.org but I don't think anyone signs their rights away to them. When you go through a third party, there has to be give-and-take, even if it's an underground label.
It's not that bandcamp is a threat to artists. On the contrary, they provide a service. But they do so via the same Faustian pact that major labels did back in the day. But at least big labels promised fame, fortune, and groupies in exchange for signing away all your rights. What does bandcamp promise you? Some hosting, and a link that you can copy/paste. Not worth their unreasonable demands, in my opinion.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 19, 2016, 04:31:15 AM
I've also often wondered that if people are prepared to sink good money into runs of physical items, why not start up their own website and upload their own material to that? A yearly fee could be just as costly as five hundred copies of a tape or vinyl lp, surely? I haven't looked into prices myself, though, so I could be wrong, but I think it could still be an option.
That's a damned good idea. But a website & its maintenence is work (and often intimidating work at that to non-techies). I took the half-assed route and made the world's most rudimentary website in order to not have to deal with the hosting sites. Now I'm wondering what the rights situation is with selling digital files via PayPal. Hmmm, an intriguing prospect... I'm going to have to dive into PayPal's legal terms & conditions now. Wish me luck...
My preference for format is CD > tape > CD-r. (Though I don't really collect CD-r.)
The last tape I bought through mailorder was from a label in my home province, at a cost of $9 CAD including shipping for a single tape (approx €6.25). So not too bad compared to what some people are paying. I still pick up tapes at shows for $5 each sometimes.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 19, 2016, 04:31:15 AM
I've also often wondered that if people are prepared to sink good money into runs of physical items, why not start up their own website and upload their own material to that? A yearly fee could be just as costly as five hundred copies of a tape or vinyl lp, surely? I haven't looked into prices myself, though, so I could be wrong, but I think it could still be an option.
There are a Lot of Weblabels, who offer Downloads and Sites like Soundcloud and Bandcamp are also an Option. I think its just an Imagination, but files aren't that interesting. Actualy there are too much Music floating around, so maybe its a kind of sort out stuff. Or its the Imagination to "own" it and the proof is a Medium you can take in your Hands. No idea in the End, but i can't handle Files and the Music isn't "worth" (Money, Attention ect) the same like a Media for me.
well, about the longevity of tapes <> cdr's ... i can pull out a 25 y/o tape from my collection and it still plays fine, can't say the same for all my 00's spraypainted americanoise cdr's :)
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on April 17, 2016, 09:33:11 AM
And I'm glad to pay the bills if it helps networking. Labels/traders/bands whatever and offer other platform than for example facebook/discogs..
I dont care for other peoples opinions that much and so be it: HAIL (!!!) you for doing this !!! o/
Regarding mikko's very first post and reasons for this thread; I think the "pain limit" for tape prices depends on the buyer. It's the price on the edge of wanting to buy the release but not willing to pay the listed price cause it's too high. That also depends on the buying power. If I'm broke I have to make a choice on which release I spend my available monthly money.
Then again, you should be quite sure the quality of the music is worth buying the record and thus meets your personal attributes of quality (production, writing, packaging, format, etc.)
Unless you're a collector, buying the limited tape release instantly when it comes available online without even samples being available. You cannot be sure the music's good or the price is worth it even if you know the artist's previous works.
For me personally, the music is the most important thing by far. Secondly artwork and packaging because I love the physical format.
To tape prices in general: they should be kept as cheap as possible and every part of the distro involved towards the final customer should be sure of how much profit is enough.
Is the artist expecting profit from selling recordings or sees it as a promotion for paid bookings?
How much is "enough" profit for the manufacturer?
Which costs need to be covered by the profit? Hours of d.i.y. assembling the releases? Costs for a store? Or are you happy to make "roughly 100 bucks per batch" for whatever comes next.
If this ends up in your rough calculation of 15€ per tape it's the way it is.
And for me "private" music still exists. I can approve of (artist-self-)releasing a ldt. 20 copies special boxset in private, giving it to friends and other artists who influenced your works maybe.
There's no point though, making a release publicly available limiting it to an amount you're sure some fans are gonna miss out on.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on April 27, 2016, 01:04:26 PM
Unless you're a collector, buying the limited tape release instantly when it comes available online without even samples being available. You cannot be sure the music's good or the price is worth it even if you know the artist's previous works.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on April 27, 2016, 01:04:26 PM
There's no point though, making a release publicly available limiting it to an amount you're sure some fans are gonna miss out on.
well, i don't want to be called a collector just because i don't want to miss out on a release of a label or artist i like.
I like tapes as well because of the format but i don't want to end up paying too much after it has been sold out (and i usually don't).
That's why i think it's really awesome when sometimes a label or artist sees there's a demand for it, they do a second run.
Of course, you don't know if that's going to happen up front...
Quote from: urall on April 27, 2016, 02:26:54 PM
That's why i think it's really awesome when sometimes a label or artist sees there's a demand for it, they do a second run.
Of course, you don't know if that's going to happen up front...
when i release someone elses work i always make it clear from the beginning that i have no problem with future artist editions/reissues/whatever. my ability to release <100 tapes is just a stepping stone to a (possibly) wider audience, and/or just a chance to work with an artist i am a fan of myself.
i have personally always thought of tapes, no matter how elaborate the packaging, best served as the way to get a release into the fans hands with little difficulty. and once its out there, if it is a great tape, word will travel even if only 50 copies made. chances are one of those end up in the hands of a 'more professional' label, and i would think it is the hope of any artist to get a second/third edition made or material re-issue on cd or lp.
if i have the spare tapes available and someone requests a specific release i dub them up an 'official bootleg' in variant packaging, usually as trade item or for little more than postage price.