Well, by now every one of you must be aware of this, but I made a thread because I think it may be an interesting topic to all of us in a less broad sense, I mean, everyone who ever posted on this forum will be tagged as a nazi from now on, since guilty by association and impossible (?) to check internet commentaries are cabal proof of something.
This article, eh...
https://thequietus.com/articles/26024-skullflower-matthew-bower-fascism-racism (https://thequietus.com/articles/26024-skullflower-matthew-bower-fascism-racism)
PS. I know this kind of stuff is always happening but I wanted some clickbait thread title... Don't know if should have posted it on the main forum too.
hehehe, that pasi quote is not good optics by most standards. what does one expect from a mind so violent and filthy? surprised it hasn't come up sooner as most anything that can be traced back to iphar is getting the big rubber stamp of "nazi" thanks to a certain infamous comp.
The "Pure" being a wink to nazism is just too much for me to handle.
https://thequietus.com/users/20441 (https://thequietus.com/users/20441)
Note the three articles attributed to the author of the Skullflower hatchet job. Clearly there is a wider agenda at play, and based on the bottom article, it sound like other witch-hunts are to be evoked as part of an ongoing 'expose'.
Quote from: re:evolution on February 12, 2019, 07:47:54 AM
https://thequietus.com/users/20441 (https://thequietus.com/users/20441)
Note the three articles attributed to the author of the Skullflower hatchet job. Clearly there is a wider agenda at play, and based on the bottom article, it sound like other witch-hunts are to be evoked as part of an ongoing 'expose'.
could be right. But fuck 'em. We have suffered this since day one. We're still here, doing what we do.
Wow, what a weak article. In general I like people being nuanced more than with blatant standpoints, but this guy is constantly taking down his own points. This reads like "this and that is not so bad in itself.... but this guy is a nazi and nazis are bad mkay".
Also, the article "Beyond The Iron Gates: How Nazi-Satanists Infiltrated the UK Underground" has this line in the introduction "Please note - this article contains imagery that some readers might find disturbing." Say no more...
Quote from: re:evolution on February 12, 2019, 07:47:54 AM
https://thequietus.com/users/20441 (https://thequietus.com/users/20441)
Note the three articles attributed to the author of the Skullflower hatchet job. Clearly there is a wider agenda at play, and based on the bottom article, it sound like other witch-hunts are to be evoked as part of an ongoing 'expose'.
The "Beyond the Iron Gates" article is so absurd I chuckled my way through the whole thing. The idea that the Order of the 9 Angels are some deadly neo-nazi cabal instead of anything mlre than cosplay nerds is laughable
fucking idiots.
andrew king is the most quiet person in the world. guys who are beefing with him have personal issues and have been suggested by some irrational moron on other side.
there is no way out.
no debating, no interaction, separate scene and kick the shit out of them if they show up protesting.
they are damaging people and there should be ever again one single hint of respect for these gentlemen.
I am not a political person since i am happy live by pretty different standards that are unacceptable for many and have no issues with lefties (most people in industrial are), my issues is with people creating evidence from hear-a-say, warriors of freedom that hit the wrong targets and live behind a keyboard and then cry when hit by justice.
Quote
Andrew Dymock, 21, and Oskar Dunn-Koczorowki, 17, leading members of Sonnenkrieg Division, a British offshoot of National Action with strong ties to Atomwaffen Division and the O9A, were arrested and charged with terrorist offences after distributing memes suggesting that Prince Harry should be shot as a race traitor.
excuse me, what?
"We invite Matthew Bower to respond to this article"
So since when this Miller guy is an authority?
I hope Bower does not fall in the trap and answer. The article is full of mistakes and superficial. a cut and paste of already existing crap.
HA! This was new to me and fairly uninteresting. Thanks for shit post. This guy, the credited pen-man Dylan Miller, couldn't even write a proper meme. Just sad click-bait explotation, couldn't read the uninformed text in full, but laughed out loud to Exhibitionistic explode-in-all-directions BU quote! That was grand. Anyways, Miller sounds like a guy who'd post his own article in a noise forum to stir up his own fart. Glad you beat him to it.
Seems like its the beginning of noise/PE's turn to get the good ol' Kim Kelly/sanitizing treatment.
I would not be surprised if the guy behind writing articles under name Dylan Miller would be exposed to be someone rather familiar in the scene? Although... "Investigation" is so shallow, that anyone could pull that article based on organizers facebook post.
My favorite quote would be probably:
Quote from: Dylan Miller of QuetusCertainly they have a welcoming home on the Cold Spring label, where martial edgelords, cryptofascists and their apologists rub shoulders with noise and industrial artists too physically or psychically dead to care anymore.
haha!!!
Whether he is newbie or just someone who doesn't
get it, it is quite well displayed here:
QuoteYes, Bower has spent a career exploring the abyss, but at some point he also became the abyss. And in our fucked up, fracturing and fractious world that abyss is no longer an obsidian edge ready to expose the hypocrisies of the mainstream – it is the mainstream, and it has engulfed us. This is why we, Raw Power and others have finally drawn a line in the sand – you are either with the people who seek to inflame hatred and division, or you are against them. We are against them.
I doubt, that it was somehow a rule of industrial music, that one
explores the abyss, in attempt to expose the
hypocrisies of the mainstream? I'd say it is rather to expose yourself to abyss to expose something in you and perhaps listeners who may experience the same. With open mind, free of moralism and spite. To look the abyss, eye to eye, and in the end conclusions may vary. You just might come into conclusion that general impression was right. Or you might come into conclusion that society that has conditioned us to respond like the average "Dylan Miller" and you see world in new angle. Becoming abyss - perhaps! Exposing "mainstream" is byproduct of this.
These characters, just ride on the high horse pointing out lame, utterly lame, verbal diarrhea what could be summed to
"brexit.. trump... nazis.." -wail. So
engulfed by evils... oh man. Talk about drooling dogs.
Industrial music clearly has social function still today. I don't think it is about men who are
psychically dead to care anymore, but about men who are psychically so alive and driven by faustian spirit that they do not mind crossing the "lines drawn in sand" by anonymous retards.
I'm quite confident that Bower won't be issuing any silly statements. It's would be setting good example, as some old English industrial veterans have been disappointingly ripe for moralist crusaders to pick up and use for embarrassing publicity stunts.
Speaking of people named Miller. Why is never Daniel Miller of Mute getting any shite? He use to engineer Boyds live shows in Europe for crying out loud and released his records. Oh, yeah he is rich and has a lawyer or two...
There's an article about Black Metal too, here: https://thequietus.com/articles/25989-darkthrone-transilvanian-hunger-emperor-in-the-nightside-eclipse-review-anniversary?fbclid=IwAR0KAjQbaQQQWEujqivTYSjqiXPymCSzLy67nwUs5BeB9ejM6yao7opoNpI (https://thequietus.com/articles/25989-darkthrone-transilvanian-hunger-emperor-in-the-nightside-eclipse-review-anniversary?fbclid=IwAR0KAjQbaQQQWEujqivTYSjqiXPymCSzLy67nwUs5BeB9ejM6yao7opoNpI).
Didn't read it in full, just the first part and there's an interesting sentence here about Faust and him playing again in a band with other Emperor-members: "It's possible that prison time and the years of growth since his early adulthood crime have changed his views and behaviours, but it's hard to say that this matters when there is another human who will never get a chance to experience the life that was stolen from him." Further on the writer explains that the guys from Emperor think he's had his sentence. But according to the writer that doesn't matter. The writer clearly has the moral high ground. *sigh*
About that O9A article: I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who take O9A serious enough to act upon it, but of course it's all too clear from the article that the writer has every interest in presenting it way bigger and worse than it is. That he mentions that a guy is being charged with terrorist offences for distributing memes drives that point home. He of course thinks this is justified and has no clue that it will make his argumentation etc hysterical.
Quote from: Strömkarlen on February 13, 2019, 12:07:33 PM
Speaking of people named Miller. Why is never Daniel Miller of Mute getting any shite? He use to engineer Boyds live shows in Europe for crying out loud and released his records. Oh, yeah he is rich and has a lawyer or two...
Also, The Quietus is a wannabe The Wire and isn't going to ruffle the feathers of a major mover and shaker within the independent UK music industry like Mute. They know this and will keep within the safe margins of who they attack. Cold Spring, in spite of it's size, is still enough of an outsider from polite indie label society that TQ risk nothing when having a pop at them. Mute, arguably one of the biggest independent labels in the world, with affiliations everywhere is a totally differen't level. They'll never go there.
Quote from: A-Z on February 13, 2019, 12:36:24 AM
Quote
Andrew Dymock, 21, and Oskar Dunn-Koczorowki, 17, leading members of Sonnenkrieg Division, a British offshoot of National Action with strong ties to Atomwaffen Division and the O9A, were arrested and charged with terrorist offences after distributing memes suggesting that Prince Harry should be shot as a race traitor.
excuse me, what?
My recollection is that he was charged for incitement for the memes (and possibly other stuff we don't know about) and being a member of a proscribed organisation. The latter is basically terror related.
The former is one to watch for UK people with fringe politics or producers of extreme material. Certainly some of the veterans of Class War have said there is no way they would get away with some of the early issues of their paper now.
Bower's been trying to wind people up for the last few years with this stuff. Magick defends itself eh.
can't decide if this being the next article up there is a coincidence or genius trolling https://thequietus.com/articles/26028-witchfinder-general-music-electric-wizard
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on February 13, 2019, 04:13:20 PM
Quote from: Strömkarlen on February 13, 2019, 12:07:33 PM
Speaking of people named Miller. Why is never Daniel Miller of Mute getting any shite? He use to engineer Boyds live shows in Europe for crying out loud and released his records. Oh, yeah he is rich and has a lawyer or two...
Also, The Quietus is a wannabe The Wire and isn't going to ruffle the feathers of a major mover and shaker within the independent UK music industry like Mute. They know this and will keep within the safe margins of who they attack. Cold Spring, in spite of it's size, is still enough of an outsider from polite indie label society that TQ risk nothing when having a pop at them. Mute, arguably one of the biggest independent labels in the world, with affiliations everywhere is a totally differen't level. They'll never go there.
It's telling that not a word is said about Justin Broadrick links with Skullflower that are stronger than "played some show with them once". JK Flesh is one of the headliners from the Raw Power (pfff...) Festival.
i would have more respect for these fucks if they would at least stand by their stupid principles. these articles never make any real conclusions and the sentences always end with wishy-washy bullshit like "is he a nazi? we don't know. should you stop buying his music? i cant say for sure" like fuck you dude, don't waste my time with this shit. hipsters in noise is one thing but stay the fuck out of black metal
Quote from: l.b. on February 13, 2019, 07:23:34 PM
i would have more respect for these fucks if they would at least stand by their stupid principles. these articles never make any real conclusions and the sentences always end with wishy-washy bullshit like "is he a nazi? we don't know. should you stop buying his music? i cant say for sure" like fuck you dude, don't waste my time with this shit. hipsters in noise is one thing but stay the fuck out of black metal
Too late. BM is infested by people like that. Or lets say, their side of metal. I don't know single guy who'd have issues listening Emperor due member stabbing faggot who tried to take advantage of teenage metalhead. I guess they exist somewhere, but I never met one.
It is true, that very few articles make conclusions. I would assume that it is sign of playing it safe. Authors certainly knows that it is enough to raise question, and this question will remain in peoples mind, despite what was the real conclusion - if there was any. Whatever target of accusation will say, the original outrage will be remember. If shit hits the fan, guy who wrote the smear campaign can yell "well, I didn't say he was...", ...like a little bitch.
Remember when mr. 88MM a.k.a. Dagon of Inquisition was accused of... hmm. what exactly? Just about half of metal scene cried over decade old case where man has
maybe watched something online. We don't know what it is. We don't know why. But outrage fueled by shittiest metal blogs caused them quite a lot. Even people who generally have some sense, lost their shit over speculation of "what it could have been". As if transgressive underground suddenly turned to be moralist branch of Jerry Springer audience. Repulsive incident indeed.
Equally repulsed, I can not understate how disappointing it is to see someone like Philip Best to apologize (now related to this Bower case) in social media for old compilation tape he did as teenager. Considering that he ain't producing exactly "nice stuff" now either. So what the fuck? What is there to apologize?
Before someone says
you don't know, before you take the heat, before you got something to lose... Well, I guess there has been occasion or another. And without doubt will be few more to come. I would hope people to understand that to go agains the current, means friction. You know you are going to right direction when there is friction.
I'd keep my fingers crossed that Bower, like said, will set good example of old English scene to keep his calm. I guess Justin of Cold Spring has. Very much respectable behavior.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 13, 2019, 09:05:01 PM
Equally repulsed, I can not understate how disappointing it is to see someone like Philip Best to apologize (now related to this Bower case) in social media for old compilation tape he did as teenager. Considering that he ain't producing exactly "nice stuff" now either. So what the fuck? What is there to apologize?
Any source for said apology you could link? Would be interested to read how he phrased it.
When this happens I am often not sure where the pressure for making a public statement comes from, since most of the time antifa and such don't really have any arguments at all. I guess it's just "general fear" of online character assassination or damage to business or artist image. However I agree such apologies or even justification regarding own artwork are very weak, like losing one's face.
An apology goes nowhere because those whom it is directed at in the first place almost always don't accept it anyway, unless you are on their side and made a "mistake." I was so disappointed when Nyogthaeblisz did their long-winded justification/apology. They are supposed to be a band that says 'fuck you' or nothing at all. I'd rather people push back harder or double down. Saying sorry is going to perpetuate the problem and keep them justifying their calls outs because we look weak and scared.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 13, 2019, 09:05:01 PM
I guess they exist somewhere, but I never met one.
here in US plenty of "pizza & beer" type metalheads get all bent out of shape about faust
QuoteEqually repulsed, I can not understate how disappointing it is to see someone like Philip Best to apologize (now related to this Bower case) in social media for old compilation tape he did as teenager.
would also be curious to see a link to this or something, not familiar with this particular incident but reminds me of william bennett and mark solotroff feeling compelled to write long facebook screeds in light of the, ah, "fresh attention" as it were
edit: curious also what gets "a pass," plenty of otherwise-lefty types love genocide organ. guys from inade/loki found don't seem to have any problems
Quote from: l.b. on February 14, 2019, 02:45:44 AM
edit: curious also what gets "a pass," plenty of otherwise-lefty types love genocide organ. guys from inade/loki found don't seem to have any problems
As those are like the 2 most popular German exports the widespread audience is not surprising let alone none of the associated groups glorify fascist ideologies and conduct themselves in a relatively private manner. But even if that wasn't the case, the reason why artists are attacked, harassed, cancelled is literally not more than a snowflake being triggered, so "what gets a pass" is totally unpredictable.
Sorry if this is off-topic it seems to be drifting off into general free-speech/censorship bullshit.
Quote from: eraciator on February 13, 2019, 04:29:28 PM
Bower's been trying to wind people up for the last few years with this stuff.
Releasing records dealing with North African themes for an anti-imperialist record label run by an Algerian guy living in Egypt. Travelling to Texas to collaborate with a virulently and vocally anti-Trump married gay couple. When booked at an old-school industrial festival, hiring a crossdressing shaman to speak in tongues in front of all those insignia wearers. Donating a track to get some kid off the internet's record label started, a label named after a feminist Beyonce song with all the cultural coding that implies.
The "Dylan Miller" pieces are a collaboration between John Doran and Luke Turner to my knowledge.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on February 13, 2019, 04:13:20 PM
Quote from: Strömkarlen on February 13, 2019, 12:07:33 PM
Speaking of people named Miller. Why is never Daniel Miller of Mute getting any shite? He use to engineer Boyds live shows in Europe for crying out loud and released his records. Oh, yeah he is rich and has a lawyer or two...
Also, The Quietus is a wannabe The Wire and isn't going to ruffle the feathers of a major mover and shaker within the independent UK music industry like Mute. They know this and will keep within the safe margins of who they attack. Cold Spring, in spite of it's size, is still enough of an outsider from polite indie label society that TQ risk nothing when having a pop at them. Mute, arguably one of the biggest independent labels in the world, with affiliations everywhere is a totally differen't level. They'll never go there.
Yeah. I'm also ready with the popcorn for the fall-out over Lord of Chaos film. I don't see them pushing that is a film based on a book by Michael Moynihan... but on the other hand with Ridley Scoots company, Vice and 20 century fox involved the likes of TQ will tread gently.
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on February 14, 2019, 09:13:56 AM
Quote from: eraciator on February 13, 2019, 04:29:28 PM
Bower's been trying to wind people up for the last few years with this stuff.
The "Dylan Miller" pieces are a collaboration between John Doran and Luke Turner to my knowledge.
What is your documentation on this?
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 13, 2019, 11:24:23 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 13, 2019, 09:05:01 PM
Equally repulsed, I can not understate how disappointing it is to see someone like Philip Best to apologize (now related to this Bower case) in social media for old compilation tape he did as teenager. Considering that he ain't producing exactly "nice stuff" now either. So what the fuck? What is there to apologize?
Any source for said apology you could link? Would be interested to read how he phrased it.
I massively respect that apology and don't for a minute think it's anything he feels pressured into or isn't genuine about, especially considering it was in the context of his posts critical of this whole anti-skullflower thing. I don't see why someone should be expected to still defend and refuse to explain some dumb teenage prank decades later just so a load of nostalgic industrial record collectors can still feel like it was 'real' or whatever.
Quote from: online prowler on February 14, 2019, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on February 14, 2019, 09:13:56 AM
The "Dylan Miller" pieces are a collaboration between John Doran and Luke Turner to my knowledge.
What is your documentation on this?
Doran on social media saying that the pieces were his and Turner's attempts at self-accountability, having given promotion to a lot of this area of music in the past. And I guess being aware that some associations won't look good to future employers, corporations etc. Seeing as he is about to launch a BBC series New Weird Britain, Turner has a first novel out via a multinational publisher etc.
The Skullflower recent LPs on Nashazphone are still available via advertising links on The Quietus website. The clicks on this series have probably saved the website's financial plight single handedly.
Magick defends itself, so does money.
Quote from: Cementimental on February 14, 2019, 01:12:27 PM
I don't see why someone should be expected to still defend and refuse to explain some dumb teenage prank decades later.
I dont see what there is to apologize for? Considering that apart name, there is no wp music in it. Just juicy sex noise. Isn't that basically rough category where one could still file Many of his works?
It is possible that some people respect apologies. I come from generation where ug artists did not apologize for hurt feelings. You expected listeners to think themselves. Times are different now, obviously.
That said, one can be sure What is result. one follows that particular discussion further sees the proof: it becomes blatantly clear how the only ones who would demand "apologize/explanation" will not accept it.
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on February 14, 2019, 03:42:59 PM
Quote from: online prowler on February 14, 2019, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on February 14, 2019, 09:13:56 AM
The "Dylan Miller" pieces are a collaboration between John Doran and Luke Turner to my knowledge.
What is your documentation on this?
Doran on social media saying that the pieces were his and Turner's attempts at self-accountability, having given promotion to a lot of this area of music in the past. And I guess being aware that some associations won't look good to future employers, corporations etc. Seeing as he is about to launch a BBC series New Weird Britain, Turner has a first novel out via a multinational publisher etc.
The Skullflower recent LPs on Nashazphone are still available via advertising links on The Quietus website. The clicks on this series have probably saved the website's financial plight single handedly.
Magick defends itself, so does money.
You have a link? Would like to see.
Quote from: EXU on February 12, 2019, 03:21:20 AM
The "Pure" being a wink to nazism is just too much for me to handle.
I'm absolutely sure, that Total was totally inspired by totalitarian Nazi regimes. And Skullflower undoubtedly got part of it's name from the SS skull.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 14, 2019, 03:58:44 PM
Quote from: Cementimental on February 14, 2019, 01:12:27 PM
I don't see why someone should be expected to still defend and refuse to explain some dumb teenage prank decades later.
I dont see what there is to apologize for? Considering that apart name, there is no wp music in it. Just juicy sex noise. Isn't that basically rough category where one could still file Many of his works?
none of his other works reference nazism. he's apologising for the work that does. which is good. not being a nazi is good, as i'm sure everybody on the special interests forum will agree
In response to cr, above: no, not really.
http://skullflower-skullflowertruth.blogspot.com/2011/10/name.html (http://skullflower-skullflowertruth.blogspot.com/2011/10/name.html)
it was posted as part of a discussion on nate young's facebook timeline, i think
Quote from: spiritassembly on February 14, 2019, 09:47:08 PM
In response to cr, above: no, not really.
http://skullflower-skullflowertruth.blogspot.com/2011/10/name.html (http://skullflower-skullflowertruth.blogspot.com/2011/10/name.html)
Yeah...and I was completely serious.
Quote from: Cementimental on February 14, 2019, 01:12:27 PM
I don't see why someone should be expected to still defend and refuse to explain some dumb teenage prank decades later just so a load of nostalgic industrial record collectors can still feel like it was 'real' or whatever.
I dont see why someone should accuse and demand apologies for some teenage prank [or not] decades later. Actualy i see, a political agenda and in most cases not supported / promoted for ideological reasons but for public relations, business, money.
This is not an artist said to friends and fans when in chat "Hey, dont take things i did decades ago too seriously" . Or it came out naturally in a nice interview. This is a system demanding humilating apologies and loyalty from now on. Systematicaly ...
Anyway, everyone make his choices. Dignity or more gigs / promotion.
QuoteThis is not an artist said to friends and fans when in chat "Hey, dont take things i did decades ago too seriously" .
yeah it pretty much was tho. I can't find the thread but it wasn't some 'SJW' twitter boogieman demanding an apology, or anyone from quietus or whevever. It just came up in a pretty constructive discussion in a facebook thread, not as a response to someone attacking him over it.
Quote from: Cementimental on February 15, 2019, 06:38:35 PM
QuoteThis is not an artist said to friends and fans when in chat "Hey, dont take things i did decades ago too seriously" .
yeah it pretty much was tho. I can't find the thread but it wasn't some 'SJW' twitter boogieman demanding an apology, or anyone from quietus or whevever. It just came up in a pretty constructive discussion in a facebook thread, not as a response to someone attacking him over it.
Maybe. I mean i havent seen it, dont know. I wasnt talking about Best or anyone's specific case. In general, and not only about the small noise "scene" , it happens in every aspect of "public" life . This system attacks everyone who does or says something that doesnt fit their agenda. Their ultimate goal is that humiliating apology, which even if it's sincere, wont be accepted neither believed cause it's under pressure and blackmails. They dont care only to destroy you, but above all to humiliate you, to see you begging for their [!] forgiveness. That's the real demonstration of power and the clear message to everyone else, be like us, work with us or you will probably loose the most important a man has. Dignity, self-respect, call it what you like, you know what i mean ...
Quote from: Cementimental on February 15, 2019, 06:38:35 PM
yeah it pretty much was tho. I can't find the thread but it wasn't some 'SJW' twitter boogieman demanding an apology, or anyone from quietus or whevever.
I suppose the thread is removed? "Pretty much" describes it well. Since one may see it as casual and constructive discussion and conclude that it is almost completely that. Yet, being
almost... another angle, is that rather public and well known guy who is known to stir trouble time to time, posts article and comments it's good writing and includes soon quote:
Quoteschoolboy Philip Best (Consumer Electronics/Whitehouse) released his infamous White Power cassette, and two volumes of Oswald Moseley speeches, on his Iphar cassette label (we'll have more on this period in a future piece).
So, seeing your name mentioned, plus promise of more to come. Seeing people who operate on field of art quite close to you on verge of causing unnecessary obstacles... I can't blame much feeling urgent to comment somehow. I'm sure he regrets the tape title, as it is clear it still today causes more trouble than good things. To me it would feel that explanation would be fine, apology unnecessary. Why?
Quote from: aububs on February 14, 2019, 09:46:21 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 14, 2019, 03:58:44 PM
I dont see what there is to apologize for? Considering that apart name, there is no wp music in it. Just juicy sex noise. Isn't that basically rough category where one could still file Many of his works?
none of his other works reference nazism. he's apologising for the work that does. which is good. not being a nazi is good, as i'm sure everybody on the special interests forum will agree
People who oppose "nazism", generally oppose negative qualities what they associate with it. Discrimination, totalitarian authority, domination by the strong, acceptance of violence, anti-feminism, dehumanization and mockery of seemingly weaker groups of people, etc. They generally oppose these things regardless what brand is used to promote them. So for vast majority of folks, it doesn't really matter if you do not flirt with political history, but for example, just dehumanize women and glorify violence etc. If one looks at works of industrial/pe artists known somewhat provocative (in general, not even case of Best), you'll be bound to find this material. Some people do not like it nor they know how to handle it - beyond being outraged or disgusted. Even if they are completely unaware of motivations, true message, the standing offer of dialogue between material & listener.
It's like this Quietus comment section where someone was calling out Con-Dom. In fucking 2019! After every damn interview he has ever given, that speaks about modus operandi of project. And it still goes down to "hey, look he said the N-word some decades ago!!!". And as result you got handful of people running to defend how nice guy the artist is. And even if he is, that's besides the point.
There is rather great quote from GX of THE HATERS, about content of his work:
Quote from: GX in Troubled Sleep#3The more people misunderstand me, the more I can understand myself. It's a kind of psychic calibration. Comparing a reinterpretation to the original intent gives me a deeper awareness of my own thought process. By this means, there is no passive audience, only collaborators.
Provocative artists, especially considering all the names mentioned here, are as far as I can tell, intelligent guys. They should know now that when you provoke, don't be surprised when people are provoked. If intention was just to piss off people, then work certainly succeeds. If one is to deliver more complex message and provocation is rather meant to spark people think outside the box -so to say-, one could start to observe why it is not getting through even if it seems plain obvious to artist? What I do not think intelligent guys are looking after, is conforming themselves to level of seemingly clueless mass. If that would the case, then it would be certainly easy as fuck: Apology, and get in the line.
(In cases, like name dropped Bizarre Uproar, it has no agenda beyond exploitative pleasures. It's sex noise from the world were sexual identities are told to flourish in all shapes and colors, and it certainly does.)
I'd watched the fallout from this on Facebook and I feel Raw Power were keen to use Skullflower's name to give their weak festival some credibility, but then they realised that stabbing Bower in the back would give them plenty of free publicity, I'd never heard of them before this.
I hadn't even heard of the Quietus either, I checked the article at the time and it was laughable and weak. The same goes for the allegations made.
Quote from: Lazrs3 on February 16, 2019, 03:03:23 PM
I feel Raw Power were keen to use Skullflower's name to give their weak festival some credibility, but then they realised that stabbing Bower in the back would give them plenty of free publicity, I'd never heard of them before this.
I on the other hand have not only heard of them but been to most of their very strong and credible festivals (always very high quality, well organised, well attended, good sound, good crowd, great lineups so long as you like mostly psych/heavy/doomy rock-ish stuff ha) and also have worked for the promoter on graphic design/posters for the very many really superb gigs they put on every month. I have know the promoter for absolutely years since he was putting on small DIY noise/experimental gigs, AKA before half the internet PE goons assuming Raw Power is some clueless 'hipster' noob festival had even discovered Whitehouse via youtube links they found on 4chan. :D
It's not true that he's some 'hipster' 'SJW' outsider, and it's not true that he's cynically kicking up a fuss for publicity. Whatever you think of the decision he has simply seen material and statements he personally finds unacceptable and, as he has absolutely every right to do, has cancelled an artist because of it after first giving them a chance to respond.
Doesn't look like Bower is too bothered by all this anyway, he's deleted his repost of the cancellation email, deleted blog comments supportive of him and gone back to posting horse photos and nice folksy pagan bits of wood :D
Quote from: Cementimental on February 16, 2019, 03:28:55 PM
Quote from: Lazrs3 on February 16, 2019, 03:03:23 PM
I feel Raw Power were keen to use Skullflower's name to give their weak festival some credibility, but then they realised that stabbing Bower in the back would give them plenty of free publicity, I'd never heard of them before this.
AKA before half the internet PE goons assuming Raw Power is some clueless 'hipster' noob festival had even discovered Whitehouse via youtube links they found on 4chan. :D
Internet PE Goons, that's too funny. :D , I can't argue back, I don't mean to be rude, I am too amused and that made my day.
I was having a private discussion with John Doran (Quietus, BBC, Vice mag etc etc) in the days before he decided to run with the piece. We managed to remain civil with each other - we have a number of real life friends in common.
Fairly convinced that the motives for this series are purely financial, unlike the ideological reasoning of previous dissenting voices calling for self-policing in underground (Christoph Fringeli/Datacide, Andy Wilson/WMTN, Stewart Home, John Eden etc).
Most recent interview with Bower clearly states that his star of origin is Sirius.
We are the opposers of the sun god and white bread family
http://magreb.org/2017/06/skullflower-eng/
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on February 16, 2019, 08:23:41 PM
I was having a private discussion with John Doran (Quietus, BBC, Vice mag etc etc) in the days before he decided to run with the piece. We managed to remain civil with each other - we have a number of real life friends in common.
Thanks for the notice S.
In what regards to the rest of this mess of a thread I cannot care less. Still there is an option for those whom want and cannot reach by iron fist. Utilize guerilla internet tactics and hit Quietus and related folk where it might hurt - in the 'cash-in internet clicks'. Would love to see a wave of social media reporting of their posts as spam, bullying, etc. Posts are at your disposal to be removed if you really care. Music is war.
Excellent interview re: the Nashazphone label who released the last two Skullflower LPs before this tedious drama is at https://madamasr.com/en/2017/04/04/feature/culture/music-industry-conversations-hicham-chadly/
Quote from: Lazrs3 on February 16, 2019, 03:03:23 PM
I hadn't even heard of the Quietus either, I checked the article at the time and it was laughable and weak.
This one is quite enjoyable if I remember right:
https://thequietus.com/articles/13503-skullflower-stefan-jaworzyn-interview (https://thequietus.com/articles/13503-skullflower-stefan-jaworzyn-interview)
But I guess the new one received more clicks in a week than this one ever.
UPDATE: MB is selling a stick painted pink
Quote from: Cementimental on March 01, 2019, 01:55:57 PM
UPDATE: MB is selling a stick painted pink
Ahem - Fire Snake!
I guess this is kind of inevitable when certain (political) tropes get mixed up with event called RAW POWER. Maybe put a little more thought into the name next time?
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on March 04, 2019, 09:52:51 AM
I guess this is kind of inevitable when certain (political) tropes get mixed up with event called RAW POWER. Maybe put a little more thought into the name next time?
Seriously. Pick a different Stooges album next time, one that can't be misconstrued as a veiled attack on women/minorities/plants/animals/food choices.
they are waaay ahead of you :)
(https://tix-media-files.s3.amazonaws.com/img/cache/img/events/1311/baba-yagas-hut-all-n/fun_house2_web_fulllineup/8c759b059faa1b376e68db105fe521f8.jpg)
(deleted a more argumentative reply :) )
CALLING ALL PE GOONS: remind me again how the Black Sun is an A-OK symbol to put on the cover of your album of prosumer preset synth drones, weak yelling from an MS Word lyric sheet thru an behringer echo and goofy flanger mic feedback, or suitable for your middle class 'occult goth' living room decor in the background of your cat photos on instagram, and that ordinary non-nazi people offended by it are being unreasonable 'snowflakes' jumping to ridiculous conclusions
(https://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/204/photos/547000/breaking-christchurch-mosque-shooting-deans-avenue-bangladesh-team-latest-1587547.jpg)
Quote from: Cementimental on March 15, 2019, 02:34:52 PM
CALLING ALL PE GOONS: remind me again how the Black Sun is an A-OK symbol to put on the cover of your album
Should this be understood in the same way as demanding replies if it is still A-OK to keep playing violent videogames and using social media and messageboards for memes?
If one wants to draw direct links to shooting incident and Skullflowers decoration, oh please... PE goons have used the symbol long before manifest of mr. Tarrant, for wide variety of purposes and meanings. I doubt usage decreases at all, except is someone is worried about getting kicked out of "festival" for wide variety of petty reasons people can come up with.
Mostly joking/mocking but my point is that it's just not surprising that, if you use that symbol, most people won't want anything to do with your band and it's disingenuous to be shocked by that or act like they are the ones being unreasonable. I found it ironic to see the symbol appear in such a horrific and serious context so shortly after the flash-in-the-pan skullflower drama.
Appearing (whether it's actually the case or not) to be on the side of mass-murdering neo-nazis isn't really all that 'petty' reason for someone to kick you off a bill.
is the document downloadable anywhere?
Quote from: Cementimental on March 15, 2019, 03:43:07 PM
Appearing (whether it's actually the case or not) to be on the side of mass-murdering neo-nazis isn't really all that 'petty' reason for someone to kick you off a bill.
Well, I find it petty - if we're talking about misinformed hysteria, which is the actual reason. Not specific content of artist. Of course if we are talking about alternative music festival, I expect nothing less. If getting kicked out from actual industrial/noise fests, then I find it amusing that after all these years, people could only approach subject matter based on surface level assumptions and tabloid level conclusions.
I personally can't be emotionally moved by such incidents or see them be more than curious incidents in course of history,
Nevertheless:At this point I'd prefer that if people -including the notorious PE GOONS- feel like spreading the manifesto or video, they do not do it over SI forum. Just for forum to be sort of... ehm, less "magnet for trouble". I'm pretty sure anyone can find them online if they search for them.
Yeah that sounds wise. And yes the Daily Mail are/were sharing it so it's not exactly hard to find it seems
Quote from: Cementimental on March 15, 2019, 03:43:07 PM
Appearing (whether it's actually the case or not) to be on the side of mass-murdering neo-nazis isn't really all that 'petty' reason for someone to kick you off a bill.
How is he siding with Torrant? I don't understand.
Anyways cheers for mentioning the manifesto as I don't read the news, it's pretty hilarious.
The little bit of news I've watched, it would seem that Christchurch NZ is in the U.S. because they keep talking about America, Trump, etc.
Quote from: Cementimental on March 15, 2019, 02:34:52 PM
prosumer preset synth
Quote from: Cementimental on March 15, 2019, 02:34:52 PM
behringer echo
but what if it's a moog voyager and a roland re-201?
or a music easel and an h8000fw?
just trying to understand why you have to be so specific
as if gear price determines what is A-OK to put on album covers
Quote from: Cementimental on March 15, 2019, 02:34:52 PM
CALLING ALL PE GOONS: remind me again how the Black Sun is an A-OK symbol to put on the cover of your album ...
According to this kind of "logic" we should also revise our history and heroes' names cause he had written "Turkofagos" on his gun.
(https://www.ptisidiastima.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/1-3.jpg)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikitaras
Never understood why people who make music/art that is deemed "controversial" should have to answer for unconnected events that happened half a world away. Always found it quite annoying and preposterous.
If it helps put it in context I believe this news story is what led to the series of articles on The Quietus.
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-45919730
This issue was that Claudia Patatas (who was sentenced to five years) was seen to have a connection to Death In June through a photograph on social media and apparently it is claimed she did some of the photograpic work for some album covers for the same artist. Hence The Quietus then decided to do a series on the subject of I am not mistaken but of course I may very well be.
https://datacide-magazine.com/national-action-neo-nazi-terror-group-connections-to-neofolk-scene/
https://i1.wp.com/datacide-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/Screen-Shot-2018-11-18-at-17.44.33.png?resize=1002%2C1024&ssl=1 (https://i1.wp.com/datacide-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/Screen-Shot-2018-11-18-at-17.44.33.png?resize=1002%2C1024&ssl=1)
anybody know the name of this guy's PE project?
EDIT: "Other images document the couple's collection of far-right memorabilia found at their Oxfordshire home including swastika cushions and clothing, as well as a swastika-shaped pastry cutter" l o l
Quote from: Bob on March 16, 2019, 08:31:37 PM
https://datacide-magazine.com/national-action-neo-nazi-terror-group-connections-to-neofolk-scene/
Mildly amusing. Timeline seems to span over years. For example, to establish "connection" to Allerseelen because of comment made by fan on bands facebook post, before National Action even existed where this fan could be member. It is not unexpected, but mildly funny if bands are held responsible for things such as later life decisions of ex-girlfriend of past friend?
But yes, atleast in Finland, it is a undeniable fact that many members of banned organization fairly similar to NA, has background in underground music. You can see such people in regular metal gigs, occasionally even few industrial gigs, oi gigs etc. and it's nothing utterly unusual. I could promise that if one would want to do a map of finnish underground musicians ties to known or convicted neo-nazis, everybody is literally three if not two associates distance at maximum. Some may find it amusing that some of the die-hard antifascists punks play in bands with guys who play in bands with most known nsbm/rac guys. So comparing for example article linked above seems funny, when you could make one about almost
every underground band in Finland. No joke.
I guess the lesson here is that everyone needs something to make themselves feel less like the blinkered, hypocritical members of contemporary society that they are. Some people deal with that by joining NSBM/RAC bands, others by writing articles about them. They're welcome to each other.
Honestly though this comes to me as a bit of a surprise. Skullflower is one of those artists, like say Kapotte Muziek, whose work I've managed to accumulate quite a lot of over the years without ever quite calling myself a serious fan. Never once did I get any inkling as to the implications or accusations currently being leveled. Now call me ignorant. Perhaps as a consumer of music a first requirement is to better verse myself in history, signs, symbols, the lot. Maybe I never got that de Waard's Recycled Music series was a hidden message to eco terrorist cells around the world. (edit Better add RRRon to that list, just to be safe.)
It just strikes me as... odd. I'm sure Skullflower could have played the festival and not one audience member would have come away with the suggestion of anything other than maybe they should check out some more of the project's bitchin' sounds. Like, holy shit, didn't know there was this much Skullflower in existence-
https://skullflower.bandcamp.com/
Gonna have to remedy things at some point. (If the point of generating this hoopla was to get more people, or say, more casual listeners like me, into Skullflower, well then. Job well done!)
So yeah I was, and am, still, a tad incredulous. It just didn't make no sense till someone who seems to know some of the persons involved suggested that this was mainly a financial decision. That made sense. And my first comment was riffing on that.
*coff*coff*Mgla*coff*coff
It's official, anyone who ever posted on SI and have a metal band... BEWARE!
I don't know how to react to this at all.
Quote from: EXU on May 02, 2019, 02:40:20 AM
*coff*coff*Mgla*coff*coff
It's official, anyone who ever posted on SI and have a metal band... BEWARE!
I don't know how to react to this at all.
Mild amusement?
Bad boys found in Black Metal. It's a news worthy story in 2019 for various reasons.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 02, 2019, 09:07:18 AM
Quote from: EXU on May 02, 2019, 02:40:20 AM
*coff*coff*Mgla*coff*coff
It's official, anyone who ever posted on SI and have a metal band... BEWARE!
I don't know how to react to this at all.
Mild amusement?
Bad boys found in Black Metal. It's a news worthy story in 2019 for various reasons.
So so so so naughty I might add... https://varisverkosto.com/2019/03/the-influencers-of-the-finnish-ns-music-scene-part-3-mikko-aspa-of-northern-heritage-clandestine-blaze-vapaudenristi-sarvilevyt/
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on May 03, 2019, 01:56:52 AM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 02, 2019, 09:07:18 AM
Quote from: EXU on May 02, 2019, 02:40:20 AM
*coff*coff*Mgla*coff*coff
It's official, anyone who ever posted on SI and have a metal band... BEWARE!
I don't know how to react to this at all.
Mild amusement?
Bad boys found in Black Metal. It's a news worthy story in 2019 for various reasons.
So so so so naughty I might add... https://varisverkosto.com/2019/03/the-influencers-of-the-finnish-ns-music-scene-part-3-mikko-aspa-of-northern-heritage-clandestine-blaze-vapaudenristi-sarvilevyt/
OMG
F&V is beginning to sink so deep underground it is barely visible, unless you *really* go look for it.
Nevertheless, this same "organization" made amusing piece about Filth & Violence / Bizarre Uproar / XE.
Unfortunately no english version. I doubt it will be done.
My favorite bits are:
1) telling how mr. BU is the key player in finnish national socialist music.
2) call for people to fight against the BU type of hatemongers to stop nazi music infiltrating mainstream music.
3) Name dropping Funeral Mongoloids and Lämpimät Juutalaiset.
And it is no joke, but unintentionally funny.
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/j5yekp/exclusive-dayton-shooter-was-in-a-pornogrind-band-that-released-songs-about-raping-and-killing-women (https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/j5yekp/exclusive-dayton-shooter-was-in-a-pornogrind-band-that-released-songs-about-raping-and-killing-women)
I was going to say that now this https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Grunt/3540321816 (https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Grunt/3540321816) has the edge but I remembered about Creamface.
too bad the other member of the band took the music down, coulda been the first pornogrind band to make some real $!
https://www.discogs.com/Menstrual-Munchies-Preteen-Daughter-Puy-Slaughter/release/11818142
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 18, 2019, 09:53:21 AM
F&V is beginning to sink so deep underground it is barely visible, unless you *really* go look for it.
Nevertheless, this same "organization" made amusing piece about Filth & Violence / Bizarre Uproar / XE.
Unfortunately no english version. I doubt it will be done.
My favorite bits are:
1) telling how mr. BU is the key player in finnish national socialist music.
2) call for people to fight against the BU type of hatemongers to stop nazi music infiltrating mainstream music.
3) Name dropping Funeral Mongoloids and Lämpimät Juutalaiset.
And it is no joke, but unintentionally funny.
Interesting article, but a stupid message.
Also, Google does a pretty good job of translating the article to English, for anyone interested.
There is the new English translation. Like before, it is toned down slightly. Especially language and usage of the "n word" haha..
No idea what they think article like this should result? Perhaps noise people now finally understand there is some filthy and violent releases on label called... ehm... F&V?
it is baffling how much the cultural climate has changed suddenly, or maybe i just haven't noticed. as far as i remember, ten years go, it was accepted in sort of leftist/slightly apolitical art milieus that you could enjoy this sort of "tasteless" exploitation in music/films/etc. - in an "enlightened" aesthetic manner or whatever.. now it seems just exploring taboo subjects without directly transparent message/agenda is totally frowned upon.. could never see BU, or even XE, as political in the slightest..
Quote from: brutalist_tapes on August 16, 2019, 03:21:00 PM
could never see BU, or even XE, as political in the slightest..
That was always my impression. I think that noise/power electronics are often so alienating to many people that they would almost automatically be apolitical. Unlike some NSBM or RAC, it would be difficult to build a sustainable and widely appealing political platform from it.
Quote from: brutalist_tapes on August 16, 2019, 03:21:00 PM
as far as i remember, ten years go, it was accepted in sort of leftist/slightly apolitical art milieus
hahaha i am sorry but this too much. were you on the noise fanatics board at the time? they had a shit fit when rrron & mikko released Hammer of Aryan Terror and it didnt stop until this forum was created and a mass exodus happened. how old is the phrase "nazi punks fuck off?"
also, if you cant see how a band like XE calling for steel capped justice isnt political you have your head up yr ass.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on August 16, 2019, 06:46:01 PM
Quote from: brutalist_tapes on August 16, 2019, 03:21:00 PM
could never see BU, or even XE, as political in the slightest..
That was always my impression. I think that noise/power electronics are often so alienating to many people that they would almost automatically be apolitical. Unlike some NSBM or RAC, it would be difficult to build a sustainable and widely appealing political platform from it.
Just because there's no widespread known subgenres in noise/PE that include promoting political ideologies doesn't mean the entire genre is apolitical
XE is sexual, not political. He has stated that, so that's what it is. Just as if an NSBM band is only such if they state they are.
I understand people not liking PE because of the subject matter. What I don't understand is why they would come into it with torches and trying to change something that has ALWAYS had X, X and X subject matter. It's like wanting to start a goregrind band, but being offended by gore.
Quote from: PTM Jim on August 16, 2019, 07:58:28 PM
It's like wanting to start a goregrind band, but being offended by gore.
https://antifascistneofolk.com/2019/07/29/the-antifascist-neofolk-manifesto/
Quote from: PTM Jim on August 16, 2019, 07:58:28 PM
XE is sexual, not political. He has stated that, so that's what it is. Just as if an NSBM band is only such if they state they are.
I think that's a very ignorant and naive take judging people's intent only by what they say and disregarding other actions. So I can run around publically in a sailor moon costume, put out personal music covered with manga and tell you I'm not into anime and you will believe that? People lie all the time man. Of course it's sexual but looking at the lyrics, artwork, titles and denying any political influence is ridiculous.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on August 16, 2019, 08:42:45 PM
Quote from: PTM Jim on August 16, 2019, 07:58:28 PM
It's like wanting to start a goregrind band, but being offended by gore.
https://antifascistneofolk.com/2019/07/29/the-antifascist-neofolk-manifesto/
This is so cringe it's actually hard to read
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 16, 2019, 09:18:51 PM
Quote from: PTM Jim on August 16, 2019, 07:58:28 PM
XE is sexual, not political. He has stated that, so that's what it is. Just as if an NSBM band is only such if they state they are.
I think that's a very ignorant and naive take judging people's intent only by what they say and disregarding other actions. So I can run around publically in a sailor moon costume, put out personal music covered with manga and tell you I'm not into anime and you will believe that? People lie all the time man. Of course it's sexual but looking at the lyrics, artwork, titles and denying any political influence is ridiculous.
I get that, completely, but the political aspect is like a vehicle. The whole point is paraphillia towards racism. Racism isn't necessarily politics also.
Plus his (or anyone's) personal preferences may or may not be reflected in the subject. There are plenty of things that are dedicated to to a certain subject, but the artist isn't into it personally.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on August 16, 2019, 08:42:45 PM
Quote from: PTM Jim on August 16, 2019, 07:58:28 PM
It's like wanting to start a goregrind band, but being offended by gore.
https://antifascistneofolk.com/2019/07/29/the-antifascist-neofolk-manifesto/
Oof.
Quote from: PTM Jim on August 16, 2019, 10:58:39 PM
There are plenty of things that are dedicated to to a certain subject, but the artist isn't into it personally.
Sure, but if you don't make the audience know that by either creating the material in an unambiguous manner or publically explain what the intention is of dealing with that subject matter, most outsiders will assume what seems obvious to them. It seems short sighted to me to put swazis on your j-cards and then be surprised when the general public assumes racism. Not saying that anyone's doing that, if an artist gives zero fucks that's fine, but that attitude only works if you give zero fucks about your music being "misunderstood" also.
XE being not political, is sort of obvious, until someone concludes that it is political act to cause change in people line of thinking. For example popularize dehumanization of people. Promote idea and cultural climate that it is ok to degrade, abuse and insult - perhaps just in art, but that may or may not bleed into "real life". Question is this promoting national socialism, should be easy. Is it promoting some sort of libertarianism, is much less obvious. Artists firm attitude that it is just fetishized and sexualized things, what appeal to his aesthetics, will not remove fact that someone will not approve it "publicly" displayed.
Generally it used to be understood that a lot of industrial music may not promote anything in particular, but present things that will make listener, and possibly artists himself, to ponder questions that formerly were thought to be obvious. When organizations like Varisverkosto, which is clearly made out of legit retards, do not get this element build inside industrial culture (or art in general), their input is just the fun times of seeing cheapest provocations work like charm. First step to experience this type of art should be ability to step beyond being provoked. If you can not go pass being provoked, I doubt you could face the actual questions established about wide variety of themes that common man doesn't want to deal with, but which in reality we live in, would require to be re-evaluated.
I would think that beauty of projects like XE is, that it can be so much more, than it intends to be. Same goes for a lot of the best industrial/noise works out there.
Maybe the word "provocation" is missused a lot and maybe it changed the meaning of its definition over the time but in the former definition it is a call to action. if someone is provoacted, he is advised to react to this provocation with all means nessecary. Antifa is the living reaction of provocation and the whole ideology is build up on this fact. There will never be a sense of understanding or selecting as long a provoaction is held up in front of the public work
The Ideology and the real Intention of the Artist doesn't matter. The Product is what matters and will be judged.
Quote from: Goat93 on August 17, 2019, 12:11:11 PM
Maybe the word "provocation" is missused a lot and maybe it changed the meaning of its definition over the time but in the former definition it is a call to action.
I don't think it is "misused". It just has different meanings depending on context:
1a : to call forth (a feeling, an action, etc.) : evoke
b : to stir up purposely
c : to provide the needed stimulus for (will provoke a lot of discussion)
2a : to incite to anger
I think most of noise/industrial content fits to any listed meanings in category 1. I don't think there is much point in attempt to incite anger and opposition, when we're talking about releases one needs to dig deep, and make conscious attempts to be exposed to. It is there rather to evoke feelings, stimulus, curiosity, new perspective, etc.. that is most of all positive if you ask me.
Attempt to incite to anger seems to be the old school of industrial when it was often performed to unprepared audience who had no idea what they were to experience. Nowadays both audience and methods are not like that anymore.
You could argue that even in the oldschool days provocation wasn't always the intent but a byproduct of said audience being exposed to "extreme" material. It only takes someone to feel provoked or offended and provocation is created without any intent. Which is most likely exactly what happens nowadays when an outsider stumbles upon ambiguous material, "in you face" artwork or whatever.
provokatsiya is of course a cornerstone of, and holdover from, soviet-era military intelligence; pro-democratic, separatist and nationalist movements during soviet times were all labelled "provocative," and not just in the sense of eliciting emotion. to provoke people to think differently, act differently, it's like terrorism. the charge is that some intelligence service (namely CIA) is secretly promoting these events, from prague spring to tiananmen square. the fear is that small groups of dedicated individuals can inflict widespread change thru extravagant breaches of normality, like Laibach's concert and tv appearance in '83 which led to them being banned by socialist authorities of Yugoslavia.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 16, 2019, 07:15:18 PM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on August 16, 2019, 06:46:01 PM
Quote from: brutalist_tapes on August 16, 2019, 03:21:00 PM
could never see BU, or even XE, as political in the slightest..
That was always my impression. I think that noise/power electronics are often so alienating to many people that they would almost automatically be apolitical. Unlike some NSBM or RAC, it would be difficult to build a sustainable and widely appealing political platform from it.
Just because there's no widespread known subgenres in noise/PE that include promoting political ideologies doesn't mean the entire genre is apolitical
Let me rephrase. You are right. There are many ways to be political. I am sure that there are many noise/PE musicians that send political messages through their music, and in that sense these genres can definitely be political. They can also be political by the very fact that they represent a profound refutation of everyday ideas about music and culture. However, I think that they are also often apolitical in another sense. Given the harsh and transgressive nature of noise and PE, I would expect that many (perhaps even most) people would find them unappealing or downright unnerving. In that respect I think that it would be very difficult to use them to further any popular political movement.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on August 17, 2019, 08:14:54 PM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 16, 2019, 07:15:18 PM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on August 16, 2019, 06:46:01 PM
Quote from: brutalist_tapes on August 16, 2019, 03:21:00 PM
could never see BU, or even XE, as political in the slightest..
That was always my impression. I think that noise/power electronics are often so alienating to many people that they would almost automatically be apolitical. Unlike some NSBM or RAC, it would be difficult to build a sustainable and widely appealing political platform from it.
Just because there's no widespread known subgenres in noise/PE that include promoting political ideologies doesn't mean the entire genre is apolitical
Let me rephrase. You are right. There are many ways to be political. I am sure that there are many noise/PE musicians that send political messages through their music, and in that sense these genres can definitely be political. They can also be political by the very fact that they represent a profound refutation of everyday ideas about music and culture. However, I think that they are also often apolitical in another sense. Given the harsh and transgressive nature of noise and PE, I would expect that many (perhaps even most) people would find them unappealing or downright unnerving. In that respect I think that it would be very difficult to use them to further any popular political movement.
I agree for the most part, however I don't think you would catch people who view noise as unappealing for any political movement in the first place. As music gets more extreme it would make sense to me that it has the potential to attract people who share more extreme political stances with a higher percentage (since it filters out & excludes "normies" maybe?) and from my personal observation this seems to be the case anecdotally speaking. Whether fueling any political movement with the ability to be influential out of this is possible depends on the number of people and I don't see that ever happening in PE.
What nobody wants to talk about is how critics, fans and even artists grossly overestimate the power, impact and success of all this 'provocation' - intended or otherwise. It seems like much of the discourse surrounding these topics come from a massively inflated sense of how effective or believable this supposed. Absolutely nobody seems prepared to examine this shit on it's own terms i.e. as art but with the view to critique how well all these alleged intentions and/or aesthetics actually work.
And I get it, because the truth is a lot more painful and boring than whatever narrative either end of this pathetic, endless argument has to offer - imagine if, after a little introspection, it emerged that everything we're talking about here could be boiled down to inward facing performance of genre and subculture? A lot of people would be lost without their hill to die on.
Quote from: Duncan on August 17, 2019, 09:01:53 PM
Absolutely nobody seems prepared to examine this shit on it's own terms i.e. as art but with the view to critique how well all these alleged intentions and/or aesthetics actually work.
I completely agree. Noone is prepared to examine this. Because it is impossible.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 17, 2019, 09:30:15 PM
Quote from: Duncan on August 17, 2019, 09:01:53 PM
Absolutely nobody seems prepared to examine this shit on it's own terms i.e. as art but with the view to critique how well all these alleged intentions and/or aesthetics actually work.
I completely agree. Noone is prepared to examine this. Because it is impossible.
I don't think it would be impossible, I just think it'd require too much interrogation about how surface level and insincere a lot of the music and proclaimed symbolism is than either the dedicated fan or the offended blogger is really prepared to enter into.
Everyone seems quite happy on their respective side of the fence tbh and I think those that truly have a dog in the race would secretly hate it if they had nothing to think they were kicking against.
Quote from: Duncan on August 17, 2019, 09:01:53 PM
What nobody wants to talk about is how critics, fans and even artists grossly overestimate the power, impact and success of all this 'provocation' - intended or otherwise. It seems like much of the discourse surrounding these topics come from a massively inflated sense of how effective or believable this supposed. Absolutely nobody seems prepared to examine this shit on it's own terms i.e. as art but with the view to critique how well all these alleged intentions and/or aesthetics actually work.
And I get it, because the truth is a lot more painful and boring than whatever narrative either end of this pathetic, endless argument has to offer - imagine if, after a little introspection, it emerged that everything we're talking about here could be boiled down to inward facing performance of genre and subculture? A lot of people would be lost without their hill to die on.
Actualy i try to get to the Step further. How works this Stuff for People who doesn't care about all this Shit and just react to the Stuff in the Way it differs from their Views?
Does someone really believe that the Critics will listen to explanations or will change their Offense behaviour cause of "misinterpretations"?
And the Line between Art and Seriousity is the Interesting Point for the spreading. if there is no "fear" of seriousity, nobody would care about it
Quote from: Duncan on August 17, 2019, 10:33:12 PM
I don't think it would be impossible, I just think it'd require too much interrogation about how surface level and insincere a lot of the music and proclaimed symbolism is than either the dedicated fan or the offended blogger is really prepared to enter into.
Everyone seems quite happy on their respective side of the fence tbh and I think those that truly have a dog in the race would secretly hate it if they had nothing to think they were kicking against.
I am not very jaded about possibilities of illuminating effects of art. I don't think it needs to be something that one can prove in mathematical accuracy by academic study. I would think it is almost irrelevant whether something is
surface level and insincere, when purpose of industrial, or art is not the same as educational book. If it's the sign towards doors listener (or maker) are hinted to open and take a look, it certainly can be seen as surface level by default, but also invitation further. Rest is up to the experiencers. If they expect manuals
for dummies, lessons, lectures, memberships in groups that operate in
politics... If they expected for example GO "remember" being in front pockets of industrial troopers, as guidebook like little red book, I think they didn't really get it?
I would think idea that there would be situation that there isn't anything one would be kicking against, refers to idea of idea of paradise or society of total equilibrium. Both impossible utopias, and movement will always create friction.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on August 19, 2019, 09:17:56 AM
I would think it is almost irrelevant whether something is surface level and insincere, when purpose of industrial, or art is not the same as educational book. If it's the sign towards doors listener (or maker) are hinted to open and take a look, it certainly can be seen as surface level by default, but also invitation further. Rest is up to the experiencers.
But it can become difficult to experience anything much further when you find out that the one pointing you to the door doesn't really have that much to say if you remove the context of 'industrial music' from their statements. If you want to try and take what someone is saying further than the vehicle through which they're saying it then it requires you to scrutinize that vehicle and the artist's true motivations for using it. People claiming artistic ambiguity are very often totally dependent on this never being done to their work and it works in their favour that their only real opponents are the ones who don't want to engage with it on any level but to try and have it shut down.
Quote from: Duncan on August 19, 2019, 10:45:22 AM
But it can become difficult to experience anything much further when you find out that the one pointing you to the door doesn't really have that much to say if you remove the context of 'industrial music' from their statements. If you want to try and take what someone is saying further than the vehicle through which they're saying it then it requires you to scrutinize that vehicle and the artist's true motivations for using it. People claiming artistic ambiguity are very often totally dependent on this never being done to their work and it works in their favour that their only real opponents are the ones who don't want to engage with it on any level but to try and have it shut down.
I don't know why would you want to have hang-ups about artist motivation, if it really boils down to presenting more questions than answers, where as said before, experiencer (be it audience or artists himself) is in main role? To me, it is obvious, that many of the core issues that builds any of the elements of modern society, would be ready to re-evaluation. It can be done in many forms of expression, yet topic of forum is what it is. That industrial music doesn't necessarily give you the answer straight away in form of statement, doesn't make it less. Perhaps even opposite. One may say that piece of art has failed when it doesn't, as you say, doesn't really point anywhere. Nevertheless, the same clues clearly lead people to different things. Rather than that some particular work of art would be completely hopeless, I often see certain kind of laziness. Focus is rarely trying to find more than there seemingly is, but focusing on seeing even less than there really is. That ain't the real loss for piece or art, though. There will be next years & eyes.
Certainly I agree with the last sentence. What I consider majority of reaction towards themes being. Themes that hold nearly religious status in society, and remain usually largely unchallenged or admitted to be what they really are. Someone will most often consider that been there, done that, why I should ponder over and over again issues X, Z and Y, when it's all laid out loud and clear long ago, in vast general agreement. Yet, I tend to disagree, and tend to think that this is exactly what sets apart the common folks and
the others.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on August 16, 2019, 08:42:45 PM
Quote from: PTM Jim on August 16, 2019, 07:58:28 PM
It's like wanting to start a goregrind band, but being offended by gore.
https://antifascistneofolk.com/2019/07/29/the-antifascist-neofolk-manifesto/
sorry THAT By Anton Shekhovtsov? LOOOL
Ok no need to read further.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on August 19, 2019, 01:33:00 PM
Certainly I agree with the last sentence. What I consider majority of reaction towards themes being. Themes that hold nearly religious status in society, and remain usually largely unchallenged or admitted to be what they really are. Someone will most often consider that been there, done that, why I should ponder over and over again issues X, Z and Y, when it's all laid out loud and clear long ago, in vast general agreement. Yet, I tend to disagree, and tend to think that this is exactly what sets apart the common folks and the others.
agree as usual: 1% power electronics
that's it.
no excuses
no regrets
no explanation
no taboos
and these morons should not complain if confronted and just show guts if thy and not involve their bigger friends/goons as they often did in the id 2000s (Leipzig, Yverdon, Kassel, Frankfurr anyone?)
there cannot be dialogue with people who take things out of context and are often (not always) funded by social trusts.
on the other side, if you feel you might get hurt stop provoking and using controversial imagery, simple as that.
Quote from: tiny_tove on August 20, 2019, 12:03:49 AM
and these morons should not complain if confronted and just show guts if thy and not involve their bigger friends/goons as they often did in the id 2000s (Leipzig, Yverdon, Kassel, Frankfurr anyone?)
Not sure what you mean, can you elaborate?
just a few attacks/gig cancelled thanks to these gentlemen. No jokes, they were triggered by people spreading shit on line via hear-a-say on non-nazi bands.
People got hurt, gear/vans got smashed/stolen, girls intimidated, and antifas who got caught cried injustice in court/hospital.
example http://switzerland.indymedia.org/fr/2008/10/63612.shtml 40 vs 8 people (3 women). lionhearts.
I was involved in a couple of occasion and it was so stupid.
I could add these people making pressure and demanding to speak with us in different occasion "in their ground", something I always refused to do since they are no authority.
Funnily enough those who questioned me directly always went away either friendly (Holland was a blast) or even more confused to say the least (Italy).
These people cannot accept the fact that truth is non-binary an is post-ideological, that the "arts" (sorry for the term) are not necessarily of civil use, and that social criticism does not necessarily have to fit an agenda.
There is people who lost jobs because of these gits, I have seen so much pressure on some guys that they were only doing their things that some marriages got broken... and I am not exaggerating.
They can do whatever they want, they can live their partisan dream, I don't care, but they can't complain if some people get pissed off if they spread LIES.
Wow okay thanks for clearing that up. There's certainly cities with more leftist extremist violence than others (just as there are some more right-leaning ones), so if that's known it would make sense to involve heavy security (or even police if there's threats beforehand on forums or whatever) for anything neofolk-related or projects of other genres these extremist would react allergic to.
Normally I would always prefer reasonable discussion but honestly most of these "activists" probably don't even know what fascism means. I think they're at a point where they hate nationalism/conservatives so much that they violently go against anything once they catch a faint whiff of romanticism, paganism or historical themes of certain eras to have their own little political "revolutions" cause they're not gonna get anything done democratically. Attacking a Camerata show just further proves the stupidity of unorganized delusional tactics.
"Stab your backs when you trash our halls
Trash a bank if you've got real balls"
Are The Quietus going to publish their article on Consumer Electronics or did something scare them off? There was so much fanfare from them a few months ago. Bit off more than they could chew perhaps? Not a wise career move? Too many establishment feathers ruffled?
I guess that's the last of it from TQ then. Fucking pussies!
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 20, 2019, 01:06:11 AM
There's certainly cities with more leftist extremist violence than others (just as there are some more right-leaning ones)
In this case this comparison can't be done. We are specifically talking about antifas disrupting events and attacking people (and crying when somebody backfired).
You do not debate people who wants you dead even if you are not what they claim to be.
Quote from: tiny_tove on August 21, 2019, 11:09:26 PM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 20, 2019, 01:06:11 AM
There's certainly cities with more leftist extremist violence than others (just as there are some more right-leaning ones)
In this case this comparison can't be done. We are specifically talking about antifas disrupting events and attacking people (and crying when somebody backfired).
You do not debate people who wants you dead even if you are not what they claim to be.
I was making a point of whether these attacks are to be expected more in certain areas with higher extremist activity to evaluate the need to organize security etc.. Trying to promote a NSBM show in Hamburg for instance would be extremely dumb - you would have to expect antifa to shut you down. Just as much as you would expect getting shut down when hosting a queer-trans-noise show in a rural saxony village. I'm sure there's been cases of right-wing extremists attacking pro-LGBT music events, leftist protests with punk concerts and the like so I'm not sure how you don't see a comparison there.
If by "wants you dead" you mean someone being in the process of attacking you of course you'll defend yourself and hopefully fuck them up, you would be stupid not to. For debating though it doesn't really matter whether someone wants you dead or not, only whether they're capable of civil and informed discourse. I only mentioned that because you said in your earlier post that you were contacted to join some discussion and I still think public debates are the best way to expose ignorant and stupid positions.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 22, 2019, 12:03:22 AM
Quote from: tiny_tove on August 21, 2019, 11:09:26 PM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 20, 2019, 01:06:11 AM
There's certainly cities with more leftist extremist violence than others (just as there are some more right-leaning ones)
In this case this comparison can't be done. We are specifically talking about antifas disrupting events and attacking people (and crying when somebody backfired).
You do not debate people who wants you dead even if you are not what they claim to be.
I was making a point of whether these attacks are to be expected more in certain areas with higher extremist activity to evaluate the need to organize security etc.. Trying to promote a NSBM show in Hamburg for instance would be extremely dumb - you would have to expect antifa to shut you down. Just as much as you would expect getting shut down when hosting a queer-trans-noise show in a rural saxony village. I'm sure there's been cases of right-wing extremists attacking pro-LGBT music events, leftist protests with punk concerts and the like so I'm not sure how you don't see a comparison there.
If by "wants you dead" you mean someone being in the process of attacking you of course you'll defend yourself and hopefully fuck them up, you would be stupid not to. For debating though it doesn't really matter whether someone wants you dead or not, only whether they're capable of civil and informed discourse. I only mentioned that because you said in your earlier post that you were contacted to join some discussion and I still think public debates are the best way to expose ignorant and stupid positions.
In the 2000er the Focus on Neofolk and Related was more in the Way of Backstabbing and Attacking with all means. From Beating Up People (Challence of Honour and Friends), throwing Stones on Busses/Windows/Cars, Burning Cars and Blackmailing People or making Live Traits or Bomb Traits (Like in Bremen with Kirlian Camera or Blood Axis in Dresden/Heldrungen). They attack the People. Consumer, Maker and Organisators were attacked regulary. Not only Demonstrations against some Shows. It
Actualy i would disagree with the Statement about the Concerts in Hamburg or Turingia, its always a Problem of the Promotion itself. If you promote a NSBM Event in Nuclear War Now Forum and maybe RockHard, thats really dumb. If you make a Privat Concert for Guests, its a lot easier to handle it. Of course its not a 100% Safe, like with Allerseelen in Bremen. There are from Time to Time Skin Concerts in Hamburg and the Sourrounding, so nothing is impossible. Even not in the Woods of Thuringia...
Quote from: Goat93 on August 22, 2019, 11:10:35 AM
Actualy i would disagree with the Statement about the Concerts in Hamburg or Turingia, its always a Problem of the Promotion itself. If you promote a NSBM Event in Nuclear War Now Forum and maybe RockHard, thats really dumb. If you make a Privat Concert for Guests, its a lot easier to handle it. Of course its not a 100% Safe, like with Allerseelen in Bremen. There are from Time to Time Skin Concerts in Hamburg and the Sourrounding, so nothing is impossible. Even not in the Woods of Thuringia...
Didn't say it was impossible. By adjusting the matters in which the show has to be promoted (private instead of public) you are acknowledging having to adapting the way the show is handled according to your environment (antifa presence), having awareness so to speak, which is exactly my point.
Antifa needs hunting down unto the last man.
The anonymous keyboard warriors at TQ attacking people for their own personal gain should be exposed for who and what they are.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 22, 2019, 12:42:46 PM
Quote from: Goat93 on August 22, 2019, 11:10:35 AM
Actualy i would disagree with the Statement about the Concerts in Hamburg or Turingia, its always a Problem of the Promotion itself. If you promote a NSBM Event in Nuclear War Now Forum and maybe RockHard, thats really dumb. If you make a Privat Concert for Guests, its a lot easier to handle it. Of course its not a 100% Safe, like with Allerseelen in Bremen. There are from Time to Time Skin Concerts in Hamburg and the Sourrounding, so nothing is impossible. Even not in the Woods of Thuringia...
Didn't say it was impossible. By adjusting the matters in which the show has to be promoted (private instead of public) you are acknowledging having to adapting the way the show is handled according to your environment (antifa presence), having awareness so to speak, which is exactly my point.
i think your point is useless from begin with. if i am aware about the fact that i organise a right winged concert i use the promotion for that. if i am not aware about the fact that it could maybe under special circumstances a band thats not right winged but in the register of antifa, i can't make the promotion private cause i don't know it before.
ultha were banned from a antifa location cause they aren't antifa enough and us band inquisition where blamed several tours to be racistic neonazis and played in Markthalle Hamburg, so tell me the options i have....
Quote from: Goat93 on August 23, 2019, 12:15:15 AM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 22, 2019, 12:42:46 PM
Quote from: Goat93 on August 22, 2019, 11:10:35 AM
Actualy i would disagree with the Statement about the Concerts in Hamburg or Turingia, its always a Problem of the Promotion itself. If you promote a NSBM Event in Nuclear War Now Forum and maybe RockHard, thats really dumb. If you make a Privat Concert for Guests, its a lot easier to handle it. Of course its not a 100% Safe, like with Allerseelen in Bremen. There are from Time to Time Skin Concerts in Hamburg and the Sourrounding, so nothing is impossible. Even not in the Woods of Thuringia...
Didn't say it was impossible. By adjusting the matters in which the show has to be promoted (private instead of public) you are acknowledging having to adapting the way the show is handled according to your environment (antifa presence), having awareness so to speak, which is exactly my point.
i think your point is useless from begin with. if i am aware about the fact that i organise a right winged concert i use the promotion for that. if i am not aware about the fact that it could maybe under special circumstances a band thats not right winged but in the register of antifa, i can't make the promotion private cause i don't know it before.
ultha were banned from a antifa location cause they aren't antifa enough and us band inquisition where blamed several tours to be racistic neonazis and played in Markthalle Hamburg, so tell me the options i have....
You think it's useless to have a bit of awareness whether there's an antifa mob operating in your city that might attack your venue, organizers & artists if you book certain bands that are on their radar and to adjust security measures accordingly? Because that is the point I'm making. Better to be safe and cautious to begin with then to be sorry later. Of course that doesn't mean you can foresee every move they make but if you're on the fence don't risk it and keep the show private.
Yes, cause there is not only one Antifa with a Holy Book of Rules and Laws. Its a chaotic bunch of different people and organisations under a Big Name. Like Gothic is the Name for several Subgenres. The Game always change and even if you ask your Local Groub about Black Lists its not secure and won't guarantee that another Antifa Block won't fuck your Party. Its not Antifa Hamburg only stationed in Hamburg nor are they the only operating Antifas in Hamburg. If you'r OK with Antifa Hamburg any other Group can beat you up or fuck you up. You really think that an Antifa Heldrungen or a Antifa Bucha can be a real Problem?
Most important is the Fact, that the Antifa have no relation to Subcultures and the Background, so they use to fight against everything in the end. And without consence, logic or Ideologie. And they don't fight against Organisations, they fight against People. For the right winged its pretty normal to see their Adresses and Private Fotos everywhere on Posterns, Internet and Newspapers or get beaten up by a mob, so the Antifa can't make a move here. If normal people are fucked up in this way its like a Victory for the Antifa and they don't care what they break on the Road to Victory.
i edit the text and try it in a different way. Imagine someone see's your Mailorder and say that you can't sell some Stuff cause its right winged and send you some links with Infos about it from Indymedia and Junge World. You sort it out and sell the other stuff.
Now imagine that another Person writes about Stuff also with Links from Indymedia and other Sources but the Stuff they want to forbid is actualy not even Political, so you don't agree and discuss without end about it. After you get Public attention on Indymedia any kind of warriors write to you and in the end everything in your mailorder is forbidden cause its not human and intolerant. If you don't shut down your Mailorder they will fuck you up make your adress public, you will get Police Help with sorting your Stuff and if they find out that you are in no organisation who could help you, they visit you for helping and tea...and that AFTER you cleaned your Mailorder from every maybe right winged, sexicst, racist and inhuman treadhs....
Quote from: Goat93 on August 23, 2019, 10:57:57 AM
Yes, cause there is not only one Antifa with a Holy Book of Rules and Laws.
Not saying there is. All I'm saying is that a random attack by a few people can probably be fended off with security/self-defense weaponry. A more organized and dangerous attack would have to be coordinated somewhat publicly (forums, facebook) so to avoid or prepare for the latter (switching location, cancel, get police involved, etc.) there has to be some awareness. You seem to think that it's in no way possible to predict anything and that every show is a gamble which is fine, I just totally disagree.
The reason I'm advocating for this is that I don't want organizers and artists to be surprised by a violent shut down and antifa is not gonna just disappear any time soon. These violent attacks is a problem which calls for immediate defense strategy and I don't think sitting there with the stance of "nothing can't be done in preparation anyways, if they come, they come" is very productive.
You edited your post and I'll have to respond to that later since it's a little different from what we were talking about originally.
I don't know if there's any specific laws against doxxing in Germany I'd have to look that up.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 23, 2019, 11:19:04 AM
Quote from: Goat93 on August 23, 2019, 10:57:57 AM
Yes, cause there is not only one Antifa with a Holy Book of Rules and Laws.
Not saying there is. All I'm saying is that a random attack by a few people can probably be fended off with security/self-defense weaponry. A more organized and dangerous attack would have to be coordinated somewhat publicly (forums, facebook) so to avoid or prepare for the latter (switching location, cancel, get police involved, etc.) there has to be some awareness. You seem to think that it's in no way possible to predict anything and that every show is a gamble which is fine, I just totally disagree.
The reason I'm advocating for this is that I don't want organizers and artists to be surprised by a violent shut down and antifa is not gonna just disappear any time soon. These violent attacks is a problem which calls for immediate defense strategy and I don't think sitting there with the stance of "nothing can't be done in preparation anyways, if they come, they come" is very productive.
I tried it now several times to clear it. If you are NOT aware that you will get Involvment from the Antifa, how could you prepare youself for it? Do you prepare yourself every day for an Earthquake and a Biohazard Outbreak? If you're aware of it you will build for sure Security Systems like usual. If you are NOT aware of this problem you won't do it and it will be a funny surprise.
QuoteI don't know if there's any specific laws against doxxing in Germany I'd have to look that up.
A Law won't help you. Look of any Antifa Site and you see how it works ;)
Quote from: Goat93 on August 23, 2019, 11:29:54 AM
I tried it now several times to clear it. If you are NOT aware that you will get Involvment from the Antifa, how could you prepare youself for it? Do you prepare yourself every day for an Earthquake and a Biohazard Outbreak? If you're aware of it you will build for sure Security Systems like usual. If you are NOT aware of this problem you won't do it and it will be a funny surprise.
QuoteI don't know if there's any specific laws against doxxing in Germany I'd have to look that up.
A Law won't help you. Look of any Antifa Site and you see how it works ;)
Yeah I do actually, because earthquakes are really common in Germany, about as common as antifa attacking a neofolk show. Great comparison.
If you don't think increasing your awareness by screening online presence before running a show, organizing some for of security just to be safe or the law being in any way helpful ever, I don't know what to tell you.
I do fully agree that one should be aware of consequences. If you think gig will attract wrong kind of attention, it is easy to not book it such place where protests may have effect. We have seen incidents where someone will book true black metal or obscene noise to "alternative space"/left leaning punk oriented bar, without realizing what it may lead to.
Yet, other side of the coin is to start to censor & beware of things you do. Like booking regular bands into secret gigs "just to be sure" there won't be any unnecessary drama. Make things look dubious with no info/no photos type of policy, even if it is 100% same crowd who visits all regular gigs and bands that are sold by all the usual distributors.
I am all in favor for things to be more underground. I do not care about the fancy clubs of the capital areas. But to be overly difficult and overtly secretive, it may not be ideal either. Mainly if you do not do it because choise, but just because you feel you "had to".
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on August 23, 2019, 05:02:05 PMI am all in favor for things to be more underground. I do not care about the fancy clubs of the capital areas. But to be overly difficult and overtly secretive, it may not be ideal either. Mainly if you do not do it because choise, but just because you feel you "had to".
Wrt the metal scene, secret gigs were mostly a thing for NSBM and "NSBM-related" bands in the past, but i recall seeing an online flyer for a Watain gig at a secret location some years back. A pretty obvious publicity stunt, seeing how the aforementioned bands would often not promote their gigs very publicly out of necessity, and a pretty nice example of how the mainstream always seems to find a way to assimilate anything that can possibly be used to sell a box set or a VIP concert ticket.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on August 22, 2019, 12:03:22 AM
If by "wants you dead" you mean someone being in the process of attacking you of course you'll defend yourself and hopefully fuck them up, you would be stupid not to. For debating though it doesn't really matter whether someone wants you dead or not, only whether they're capable of civil and informed discourse. I only mentioned that because you said in your earlier post that you were contacted to join some discussion and I still think public debates are the best way to expose ignorant and stupid positions.
debate is used not to clarify but to collect sentences to make up evidence, as it happened in a couple of Italian forums. so there can be no debate.
Quote from: Duncan on August 17, 2019, 09:01:53 PM
What nobody wants to talk about is how critics, fans and even artists grossly overestimate the power, impact and success of all this 'provocation' - intended or otherwise.
You sure about that? What I gathered was that several contributors to this thread were more or less incredulous that the critics would even have bothered in the first place- for the precisely the reasons you've outlined.
I suppose it's fair enough to reflect that no one seems to be saying anything about something that largely goes without saying. I mean, 50,000 JTCH fans can't be wrong, can they?
PriceleSS:
https://nsbmboneheads.wordpress.com/
is yosuke konishi really a wealthy biotech chemist? wow
I think my favourite part of that article was a bands link to nazism through taking their band name from a Nifelheim song, and Nifelheim are mates with Watain, who are nazis because a band member did a salute in a photo x amount of years ago I guess.
They couldn't of written a funnier piece if they tried.
Whole thing struck me as more stupid than funny.
ever since I read this article the NWN forum has been showing me this:
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /forum/ on this server.
Quote from: A-Z on October 22, 2019, 06:36:16 PM
ever since I read this article the NWN forum has been showing me this:
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /forum/ on this server.
I get the same message. I read, however, that it is possible that the forum was just shut down for the duration of the Never Surrender fest.
It gets worse:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1117144446577995776.html
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on October 24, 2019, 10:04:16 PM
It gets worse:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1117144446577995776.html
Thank you. I learned a new word today: "Femoid"
I get the same "Forbidden" message for about a week now, too.
The website itself works, but when trying to access the forums section this message always appears.
What gives? Sorry for being uninformed.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on October 24, 2019, 10:04:16 PM
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1117144446577995776.html
(https://pics.me.me/the-virgin-real-life-varg-thulean-perspectives-the-chad-fat-44272210.png)
:D wonderful stuff
What's happened to BU / F&V noticed website down and removed from bampcamp??
Quote from: Dekay71 on October 30, 2019, 10:27:49 AM
What's happened to BU / F&V
BU & F&V is fine. Nothing to do with "witch hunts".
They are back in the old school. Write and order. Regular customers should have the email.
For those who need the releases, plenty of distributors out there too.
Good news then had read the articles that BU had linked in the website and assumed add pressure caused them to wind up public presence for the time being till all these SJW's were bothering someone else with their garbage.
Still no follow up to the anonymous Skullflower assassination from The Quietus. I guess enough important people leaned on them so they just packed it in then. So much for all the big words about fighting their perceived evils of fascism in music. Career first, eh?
yeah, it will be be fun to see where those holier than thou types are when nihilism and fascist chic gets fashionable once again, ha. in the music scene i come from, ten years ago it was trendy to use faux right wing imagery for shock, etc. - basically the (admittedly) tired punk/industrial tactics once again. but the funny thing is that all these people turn to humanism and correct values when that becomes fashionable... there is a guy here who used to play absurd covers with his oh so edgy metal punk band years ago, then earlier this year he was a part of the antifa mob that attacked hendrik möbus at a festival here... quite ironic, hehe.
This kind of crap is rampant all over the place these days. Something both hilarious, and horribly stupid I found recently was this:
https://antifascistneofolk.com
Some fat, pudgy, ugly dorknifigus hipster putting words into the mouths of all the Neofolk musicians he doesn't like while making the main focus of every article about how anti-fascist everyone he likes is. I found a video of him on Youtube, and he's absolutely the most lame person I've ever seen in my life. As if Neofolk were some actually unified scene or something to begin with, and not separate people expressing separate things, lol. People like this need to just be spit roasted over the campfire and then ate, and nobody remembers anything the said the next day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJsp5dANkzY&t=274s
I've been accused by locals, and hipsters of all kinds of being racist myself. Uninspired people that have nothing whatsoever to talk about, so they make shit bigger than it is, while in reality they are incompetent in any meaningful discussion about the world.
Quote from: Gefühlloser on October 31, 2019, 08:47:42 AM
Some fat, pudgy, ugly dorknifigus hipster (...) he's absolutely the most lame person I've ever seen in my life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJsp5dANkzY&t=274s
Where in the video does he talk about Neofolk?
Also curious which specific points of his you disagree with?
Maybe you could link to an article instead of the whole page.
Otherwise nice ad-homs.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on October 31, 2019, 05:20:08 PM
Quote from: Gefühlloser on October 31, 2019, 08:47:42 AM
Some fat, pudgy, ugly dorknifigus hipster (...) he's absolutely the most lame person I've ever seen in my life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJsp5dANkzY&t=274s
Where in the video does he talk about Neofolk?
Also curious which specific points of his you disagree with?
Maybe you could link to an article instead of the whole page.
Otherwise nice ad-homs.
The video wasn't about Neofolk, I posted just to show the guy. Apparently he's connected with some Antifa groups in the Northwest USA or something. Look at the articles on the website, a great deal of them start with some title about "this band stands against fascism!" which isn't what I'm interested in when approaching some Neofolk band. He's not someone actually involved in Neofolk himself, the ways in which he's involved seem rather dubious. He won't interview any group that he deems fascist, nor try to understand why they might use symbolism in their art. He just needs to have his ANTIFASCIST movement against any fascism!!! In reality, most Neofolk fans don't want anything to have to do with that guy, and they think his involvement is dishonest at best. Personally I'm interested in a vast range of Neofolk, and I'd rather listen to people creating it themselves talk, not this guy that latched onto it for whatever reason. I think anyone really interested in Neofolk would just write about Neofolk, not create some need for Antifa vs Fa.
Edit: He even came out with an Antifascist Neofolk manifesto, which just tells you right there that he's full of shit.
Quote from: Gefühlloser on October 31, 2019, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on October 31, 2019, 05:20:08 PM
Quote from: Gefühlloser on October 31, 2019, 08:47:42 AM
Some fat, pudgy, ugly dorknifigus hipster (...) he's absolutely the most lame person I've ever seen in my life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJsp5dANkzY&t=274s
Where in the video does he talk about Neofolk?
Also curious which specific points of his you disagree with?
Maybe you could link to an article instead of the whole page.
Otherwise nice ad-homs.
The video wasn't about Neofolk, I posted just to show the guy. Apparently he's connected with some Antifa groups in the Northwest USA or something. Look at the articles on the website, a great deal of them start with some title about "this band stands against fascism!" which isn't what I'm interested in when approaching some Neofolk band. He's not someone actually involved in Neofolk himself, the ways in which he's involved seem rather dubious. He won't interview any group that he deems fascist, nor try to understand why they might use symbolism in their art. He just needs to have his ANTIFASCIST movement against any fascism!!! In reality, most Neofolk fans don't want anything to have to do with that guy, and they think his involvement is dishonest at best. Personally I'm interested in a vast range of Neofolk, and I'd rather listen to people creating it themselves talk, not this guy that latched onto it for whatever reason. I think anyone really interested in Neofolk would just write about Neofolk, not create some need for Antifa vs Fa.
Edit: He even came out with an Antifascist Neofolk manifesto, which just tells you right there that he's full of shit.
oh okay, I thought so
Antifascism is the last refuge of the untalented!
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on October 24, 2019, 10:04:16 PM
It gets worse:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1117144446577995776.html
That contains more 2+2=5 than I thought possible.
It's easy to laugh it off, but their level of harassment and self-empowerment is disturbing.
Quote from: Gefühlloser on October 31, 2019, 08:47:42 AM
This kind of crap is rampant all over the place these days. Something both hilarious, and horribly stupid I found recently was this:
https://antifascistneofolk.com
Funny stuff. A lot of the acts he loves so dearly are certainly less "pure" than he would like; for instsnce, Aerial Ruin and Sangre de Muerdago are two acts he profiles glowingly. Both played the wonderful Stella Natura fest in 2012, alongside such awful, terrible, no good acts as Changes, Blood Axis, Pyhä Kuolema and Waldteufel, all perpetual bogeymen of the obsessive ultraleft. There was no conflict. It's almost as if it was all about the music. Crazy, I know.
Quote from: endors_toi on October 28, 2019, 12:21:23 PM
I get the same "Forbidden" message for about a week now, too.
The website itself works, but when trying to access the forums section this message always appears.
What gives? Sorry for being uninformed.
All of you could just email Yosuke and ask directly. He has stated that the forum will be back but he hasn't found time to take care of it for now.
Quote from: fetch the rope on November 03, 2019, 09:43:15 AM
Quote from: endors_toi on October 28, 2019, 12:21:23 PM
I get the same "Forbidden" message for about a week now, too.
The website itself works, but when trying to access the forums section this message always appears.
What gives? Sorry for being uninformed.
All of you could just email Yosuke and ask directly. He has stated that the forum will be back but he hasn't found time to take care of it for now.
I believe that NWN forum is not coming back as per my most recent communications with Yosuke this weekend. Very unfortunate if so.
must be hard to multi-task being a wealthy biotech chemist and running nwn
something had to give
you hate to see it
if nwn doesn't come back are there any decent alternatives?
Quote from: A-Z on November 04, 2019, 03:29:21 PM
if nwn doesn't come back are there any decent alternatives?
i would like to know this too. s-i is great for industrial, but i don't know of many similar metal boards to nwn!
"These people cannot accept the fact that truth is non-binary an is post-ideological, that the "arts" (sorry for the term) are not necessarily of civil use, and that social criticism does not necessarily have to fit an agenda."
That's the most relevant quote to this whole thread to me. I'd add that the one of the most challenging things a creative person can do is to take a genre that is not known for nuance, and use it for the purpose of being nuanced. Very few people get nuanced expression in general. Symbolism is a dying art. That said, and I've said it elsewhere before, I can't stand any sort of "call-to-action" in recorded media or art. If it's not open to interpretation, it's advertising and propaganda. Whether it's toothpaste, A New Europa, or "Fighting The Nazis", I'm utterly bored and I want to send these people a bill for betraying my trust and trying to come into my home like Jehovah's Witnesses with their goofy ideologies. This sort of push and pull is like a circle jerk between sadists and masochists. It's all very sexual to me, as I've said before. On the extreme ends, you have the people who are so repulsed by their racist impulses, that they must go beat people that they think are racist. On the other end of the spectrum, you have the people who are so repulsed by their homosexual impulses, that they must go out and beat up gay people. Somewhere inbetween, you have people who would likely consider eachother exceptionally good in bed.
In all of this thread, I find it odd that the most offensive thing, to me, is that no one pointed out whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission. I don't care if it's E.A. Koetting, he deserved an ass-kicking when he did that! I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't give a shit unless someone has bad manners. I can't really stand rip-off artists, I hate them more than any person who favors one race or the other. I've never really known anyone who made a distinct effort to promote racism. I'm sure they exist, I'm sure some of them make music, and I'll be the first to admit that it's tough to nail down whether or not it needs to be banned or not. I think banning it gives it a certain power, but accepting it also gives it a power. A couple years ago, The Guardian reported at length what they considered a rise in Fascism in Italy, and a strong, unmistakably fascist music scene. I figure there are enough people who are racist or fascist enough without the "crypto" to bother oneself with, so my mind isn't particularly boggled about someone whose leanings are merely questionable.
That said, people can be banned for whatever reason anyone wants to ban them. I've let some bozos fuck up a perfectly good show in the name of free speech before myself. I disagree with others' sentiments about people who look for provocation, that they're "usually intelligent". Generally they're emotionally stunted and starved for any sort of attention, especially negative attention; the self-destructive end of the narcissistic disorder spectrum. It's best to leave them alone and not give them any sort of attention. Meth addicts can start their own scene any time they wish.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 22, 2019, 02:47:31 PM
whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission.
I know man, he should have sued... Using copyrighted speeches like that without asking for permission is fucked up.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 22, 2019, 02:47:31 PM
whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission.
Best? You mean the MB's album on Come Org? I think we can credit that for other British gentleman.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 23, 2019, 10:12:07 AM
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 22, 2019, 02:47:31 PM
whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission.
Best? You mean the MB's album on Come Org? I think we can credit that for other British gentleman.
Two of them to be fair
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 23, 2019, 10:12:07 AM
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 22, 2019, 02:47:31 PM
whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission.
Best? You mean the MB's album on Come Org? I think we can credit that for other British gentleman.
best has said that he wished bennet had completely dubbed over MB's music as he thought of him as a "low level italian hustler."
That type of comments that date back several decades ago, are quite amusing to put in spotlight now. It reminds of earlier linked twitter message collection where just about every relevant musician within history of Black Metal was exposed to have offensive opinions or sometimes in distant history expressed something someone may not like. That same piece included Whitehouse, Sutcliffe Jugend, etc. Still digging up the same minor details one thought would have been dealt with decades ago...
There is amusing case now in Finland. Old comedian apologized for sami people (indigenous people north of finland & scandinavia) for making fun about them back in 80's and early 90's. Soon gypsies stepped in asking why they are not apologized. Comedian books meeting with some gypsy organization. Jokes included pretty much every minority and various other groups of people.
Related to this, there are 4 different criminal investigations requests filed for old TV shows. Police has to decide whether they should "investigate" does a joke on TV comedy 20+ years ago possibly fall into category of racial hatred, based on laws that were applied decade(s) after jokes were aired on TV. So not that they would be now streamed by TV channels, but mere existence of such humor could be offensive and possibly illegal based on new laws.
Yet, it appears as if public response is predominantly and increasingly in opposition of all sorts of crybabies. Impression of "outrage" created by pretty much insignificant social media users may seem uproar. Yet every time it seems to meet with louder laugh and ridicule from those who see such ridiculous spectacle. Put this on context of "noise" or "metal" and the scale of offenses and reasoning alltogether gets amusing enough to be comedy.
edit: forget it
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on November 23, 2019, 11:07:24 AM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 23, 2019, 10:12:07 AM
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 22, 2019, 02:47:31 PM
whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission.
Best? You mean the MB's album on Come Org? I think we can credit that for other British gentleman.
Two of them to be fair
If I ever heard the "White Power" compilation, it was on youtube, and I don't remember details. I do remember Gary Mundy in ALAP saying that this was done to his track on the WP comp. If I am remembering incorrectly, I'm not sure how. Did Ramleh do a tape on Come Org? If so, I didn't know about it.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 25, 2019, 01:07:48 PM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on November 23, 2019, 11:07:24 AM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 23, 2019, 10:12:07 AM
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 22, 2019, 02:47:31 PM
whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission.
Best? You mean the MB's album on Come Org? I think we can credit that for other British gentleman.
Two of them to be fair
If I ever heard the "White Power" compilation, it was on youtube, and I don't remember details. I do remember Gary Mundy in ALAP saying that this was done to his track on the WP comp. If I am remembering incorrectly, I'm not sure how. Did Ramleh do a tape on Come Org? If so, I didn't know about it.
As far as I've read, the speech dumping was mainly done for "Weltanschauung" & "Triumph Of The Will" which were later released by menstrual under MB as originally intended. Since the contract was drafted by Stapleton, I think it's fair to say they were both complicit. Would be interesting to see the actual contract to check if legally valid. No idea what made him sign that piece of paper back then or whether he was just coerced to do so.
source:"MB also lined up the "Liebstandart SSMB" release about the same time with William Bennet's Come Org.
William Bennet told me - in 81, the first and last time I met him - that Steve Stapleton drew up a "joke" contract for him giving Maurizio absolutely no rights to the recording in any way whatever ever, which Maurizio happily signed. Bennet added overdubs of Hitler speeches, Nazi martial music etc from one of those tapes they used to sell at the lunatic right wing shops." - http://www.earthlydelights.co.uk/archive/interv3.html
I doubt this should be any controversy anymore, hah... I think it merely added interesting chapter, in both, legacy of MB and Come Org. And those releases, with speeches, are among very best of MB!
"Copyright" / "legally valid contracts" most often mean nothing in underground.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 26, 2019, 09:35:37 AM
I doubt this should be any controversy anymore, hah... I think it merely added interesting chapter, in both, legacy of MB and Come Org. And those releases, with speeches, are among very best of MB!
"Copyright" / "legally valid contracts" most often mean nothing in underground.
I agree, I'm not sure why this was brought up now by nopartofit as it happened so long ago and is pretty much common knowledge.
For all my opinion is worth, signing the contract was dumb but I'm siding with MB here - fuck these guys for fucking him over like that. I don't care how sick people think the Leibstandarte stuff is.
Essentially, every agreement for a release is a contract, whether it's spoken, handshake or e-mailed or texted about and whenever you're dealing with recordings it should be assumed that you're automatically dealing with copyrighted material. In case the contract was broken (for instance agreed upon run of 300 copies and label owner re-issues second run of 300 copies a year later without permission or something similar, bootlegging material, etc.) the artist has every right to sue and should do so in my opinion. It might mean nothing in the "underground" but that doesn't mean artists are not protected by copyright law. Use someone else's work without permission and it might get costly...
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on November 26, 2019, 02:05:27 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 26, 2019, 09:35:37 AM
I doubt this should be any controversy anymore, hah... I think it merely added interesting chapter, in both, legacy of MB and Come Org. And those releases, with speeches, are among very best of MB!
"Copyright" / "legally valid contracts" most often mean nothing in underground.
I agree, I'm not sure why this was brought up now by nopartofit as it happened so long ago and is pretty much common knowledge.
For all my opinion is worth, signing the contract was dumb but I'm siding with MB here - fuck these guys for fucking him over like that. I don't care how sick people think the Leibstandarte stuff is.
Essentially, every agreement for a release is a contract, whether it's spoken, handshake or e-mailed or texted about and whenever you're dealing with recordings it should be assumed that you're automatically dealing with copyrighted material. In case the contract was broken (for instance agreed upon run of 300 copies and label owner re-issues second run of 300 copies a year later without permission or something similar, bootlegging material, etc.) the artist has every right to sue and should do so in my opinion. It might mean nothing in the "underground" but that doesn't mean artists are not protected by copyright law. Use someone else's work without permission and it might get costly...
I brought it up in contrast to the "witch hunt", which is the topic of this thread. I tried to be clear that in my personal opinion, messing with anyone's original material, especially as it is released under their name, is more offensive to me than any "cryptofascism" that is often discussed in this time. P. Best was brought up before I chimed in, as can be clearly seen, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I wish I had my copy of AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE with me, as it is in storage, otherwise I'd quote Gary Mundy. What I'm confident Best did not apologize for, although I haven't seen his apology, is asserting that artists are white supremacists when they're not necessarily, especially over their own work. I'd recommend reading a few previous posts if you are still not sure.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 27, 2019, 04:49:59 PM
I tried to be clear that in my personal opinion, messing with anyone's original material, especially as it is released under their name, is more offensive to me than any "cryptofascism" that is often discussed in this time. (blahblahblah...)
I said "not sure" because I think your comparison is worthless to the discussion. Since Best did not alter MBs material, Bennett & Stapleton did. Bringing this up as a comparison would be like saying "oh in my opinion (random event that isn't connected whatsoever) is worse than crytofascism" ... okaaaay
Your problem is with someone apologizing for cryptofascism but not fucking with someone elses material. That's cool. My response to that is that whatever is passing a threshold of public outcry will be apologized for (like for instance Luke Tromiczak felt he had to for being on a photo with Robert Taylor) and that apologies are pretty much worthless.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 27, 2019, 04:49:59 PMWhat I'm confident Best did not apologize for, although I haven't seen his apology, is asserting that artists are white supremacists when they're not necessarily, especially over their own work.
I assume this is talk about White Power compilation tape? If someone makes assumptions based on front cover art, I would suppose if anyone would need to apologize, it's those people, for obviously being retards or drama queens. In that release, every track is so obvious sex noise, that anyone who'd look at it gets the point. Unless being low witted of having alternative motive to be "upset".
As far as history tells, Best has been working with many of the guys who were on that compilation after it was done. And continues to do so. He is in new 2019 Ramleh album too I recall? So I doubt anyone needs to worry if Gary Mundy or others would have issues. Best did apologize for it publicly and explained what it is, which I considered unfortunate, but not anymore after pondering potential reasons.
Quote
I said "not sure" because I think your comparison is worthless to the discussion. Since Best did not alter MBs material, Bennett & Stapleton did. Bringing this up as a comparison would be like saying "oh in my opinion (random event that isn't connected whatsoever) is worse than crytofascism" ... okaaaay
Your problem is with someone apologizing for cryptofascism but not fucking with someone elses material. That's cool. My response to that is that whatever is passing a threshold of public outcry will be apologized for (like for instance Luke Tromiczak felt he had to for being on a photo with Robert Taylor) and that apologies are pretty much worthless.
I don't really care when people get negative attention that they actively seek out. Some people deserve negative attention more than others. The White Power compilation is a good example, because if any of those artists received negative attention from it without even volunteering to be part of that theme, if could have very real consequences. If that happened in this current period especially. I was just using it as an example to illustrate a deeper point, and it'd been brought up recently. If people want to be vague, let them be vague. If people want to be "confrontational", let them be confrontational and accept the inevitable consequences. If people want to misrepresent other peoples' work in such a way that it could detrimentally affect their life and "career", they should expect to be knocked on their asses. If everyone on that White Power comp was on it fully knowing that this would be the theme, then it is not, afterall, a good example of my point, although I thought it was and I wish I had that issue of ALAP with me, regardless of whether or not Gary Mundy takes issue with it now or not. I'm not scatological enough for this petty bullshit to be "common knowledge". If I am incorrect in my paraphrasing of an interview I read with Gary Mundy some years ago, I stand corrected. If my point is still not clear, I'm not sure what else to say. I have frankly seen very little of this discussion that I didn't consider specious at best. I don't find Skullflower to be "confrontational" and I don't think that he deserves this sort of negative attention, but I could be wrong. I hope he has taken steps to make sure that Quietus are more responsible about their speculations. There are other things that are more important to be concerned over than "cryptofascism", and I only wanted to point out one example. I guess next time I am in an opinion thread I'll be more gentle for the shortbus crowd.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 22, 2019, 02:47:31 PM
In all of this thread, I find it odd that the most offensive thing, to me, is that no one pointed out whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission.
So this is what you originally claimed. There's no Hitler speeches on White Power comp as far as I'm aware so I (and I think also Mikko) assumed you were talking about the MB releases. In which case the speeches were not added by Best. Do you still not understand that?
Instead of just admitting you're wrong you're now trying to morph your original claim into some weird deeper point, which also kind of fails because Mundy's interview is your only source and you're not even sure you can remember it correctly now.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 28, 2019, 01:39:01 PM
The White Power compilation is a good example, because if any of those artists received negative attention from it without even volunteering to be part of that theme, if could have very real consequences. If that happened in this current period especially. I was just using it as an example to illustrate a deeper point, and it'd been brought up recently.
(...)
If everyone on that White Power comp was on it fully knowing that this would be the theme, then it is not, afterall, a good example of my point, although I thought it was and I wish I had that issue of ALAP with me, regardless of whether or not Gary Mundy takes issue with it now or not.
You might be right after all, so it would be good and interesting to see that interview. Cause otherwise it's unclear whether Mundy was complaining on behalf of other artists too or just on behalf of himself. You seemed so sure though that all the artists were fucked over by the theme and now you can't remember? Strange.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 28, 2019, 01:39:01 PM
I'm not scatological enough for this petty bullshit to be "common knowledge".
I was referring to the instance in which MB was fucked over by ComeOrg. as common knowledge. I admit that might be a stretch, after all I can only assume that people who listen to MB are aware of this. And this was your main concern (other artist's works being altered with without permission) no? So I don't know why you're calling it petty now.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 28, 2019, 01:39:01 PM
If my point is still not clear, I'm not sure what else to say.
Your point is very clear, it's just surrounded by speculation and misinformation.
You don't care about cryptofascism and that's fine, good for you.
To what you were addressing about altering artists material "in general" I agree with you although I think mixing speeches into someone else's music is far, far worse than putting an image of Hitler on a compilation cover.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 28, 2019, 01:39:01 PM
if any of those artists received negative attention
Well, you have to consider: Early 80's power electronics.
Look at the discographies of each band and make conclusions how big "offense" it must have been...
I would bet, that only thing what none of artists considered, was that teenage years provocation that potentially in wildest dreams effected handful of devotees of extreme electronics, would be STILL matter of discussion 40 years later.
And to return to topic of witch hunt, word generally means in modern usage, is
metaphor to illustrating the brutal and ruthless way in which political opponents are denigrated and persecuted. Or from another angle, more recent, it's most of all method of gaining attention (clicks). Guys, who did enough research to be aware of that amount of details (like the retards of Quietus), they know how it is, but decide to run the story nevertheless from angle such as we usually see. It's not like they would not know what was White Power compilation or what Skullflower does. Their motivations are shameful and utterly exploitative, while behaving as the "good guys". If artists feel there is some sort of baggage, finger should point on people who clearly, without no doubt, choose to misinterpret the works for their own benefit and contribute to this odd mass psychosis.
Or just accept that this illustrates very well some of the conclusions of industrial music?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 28, 2019, 03:29:31 PMOr just accept that this illustrates very well some of the conclusions of industrial music?
Haha, best comment on this thread so far.
On some of the points raised by others in this topic, I'm not sure if the "facts" as they have been represented- or remembered- matter as much as the shall we say poetic truth of the argument(s). Or to call it, the industrial music side of the debate.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on November 28, 2019, 02:35:33 PM
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 22, 2019, 02:47:31 PM
In all of this thread, I find it odd that the most offensive thing, to me, is that no one pointed out whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission.
So this is what you originally claimed. There's no Hitler speeches on White Power comp as far as I'm aware so I (and I think also Mikko) assumed you were talking about the MB releases. In which case the speeches were not added by Best. Do you still not understand that?
Instead of just admitting you're wrong you're now trying to morph your original claim into some weird deeper point, which also kind of fails because Mundy's interview is your only source and you're not even sure you can remember it correctly now.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 28, 2019, 01:39:01 PM
The White Power compilation is a good example, because if any of those artists received negative attention from it without even volunteering to be part of that theme, if could have very real consequences. If that happened in this current period especially. I was just using it as an example to illustrate a deeper point, and it'd been brought up recently.
(...)
If everyone on that White Power comp was on it fully knowing that this would be the theme, then it is not, afterall, a good example of my point, although I thought it was and I wish I had that issue of ALAP with me, regardless of whether or not Gary Mundy takes issue with it now or not.
You might be right after all, so it would be good and interesting to see that interview. Cause otherwise it's unclear whether Mundy was complaining on behalf of other artists too or just on behalf of himself. You seemed so sure though that all the artists were fucked over by the theme and now you can't remember? Strange.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 28, 2019, 01:39:01 PM
I'm not scatological enough for this petty bullshit to be "common knowledge".
I was referring to the instance in which MB was fucked over by ComeOrg. as common knowledge. I admit that might be a stretch, after all I can only assume that people who listen to MB are aware of this. And this was your main concern (other artist's works being altered with without permission) no? So I don't know why you're calling it petty now.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 28, 2019, 01:39:01 PM
If my point is still not clear, I'm not sure what else to say.
Your point is very clear, it's just surrounded by speculation and misinformation.
You don't care about cryptofascism and that's fine, good for you.
To what you were addressing about altering artists material "in general" I agree with you although I think mixing speeches into someone else's music is far, far worse than putting an image of Hitler on a compilation cover.
As I said, if my memory is failing, I stand corrected, but the principle of being on a "white power" compilation (regardless of the discographies of the artists on them) without choosing to be on one is still relevant to my point, although it's not the same as dumping Hitler's speeches onto the audio, I'll give you that.
I'm not trying to spin my point. I initially tried to be as concise as possible without elaborating too much. My point stands. If I find something offensive, by the way, it does not mean that I am personally offended, but I would be if it were me. That's my concept of integrity. Apparently we agree on that much. I'm just willing to admit that I don't have the damn interview with me, and memory can be inaccurate. You're not doing a very good job of making a straw man argument. Time to go back to the drawing board. Your argument is not that my point is not valid, then, but yet it is still "worthless". Well honestly, I'm just not seeing a whole lot of worthy points in this thread, and while I admit I'm more guilty of speculation than I thought I was, I'm not the only one.
I was just trying to add to the conversation in a way that brings up the question of why people are so offended by the haphazard use of some symbols rather than the haphazard use of other peoples' work in conjunction with those symbols (I'll remind you too that I wasn't the one who brought up Phillip Best), and I would add that various rip off artists don't seem to get this sort of "call out culture" treatment. To me that is a misplacement of priorities on the part of media and culture in general, but that's because it's not as "juicy" as gossip goes. I don't see people contacting Quietus about their irresponsible writing, I just see people speculating (and some whining) about the "injustice" of someone who has admittedly been "confrontational" in the past. As far as Skullflower goes, it's not my place to decide what is "confrontational" about his work. It's all regular fare at this point.
So you see, it is not about me trying to backpedal into some "weird deeper point", my point is the same and it hasn't changed. I just thought some people might take the conversation into something other than complaining, like for instance, the original meaning of the black sun symbol prior to it being co-opted by the Nazis... or something. Something other than pretend tough guys whining on behalf of someone they don't know, as if it gives them some vicarious credibility. I'll give you some "weird deeper points": My general qualm with Power Electronics is not the controversy, nor the subject matter, it's generally that pioneers are few and far between, and what's left are simple-minded, bottom-feeding muckrakers sucking the rotting teet of a bygone mythical golden age. No offense to Skullflower or anyone else, but some of my favorite PE artists are such without any particular hot button shock value schtick, and I like plenty of nasty shit too. I think that a true exploration of power dynamics needs to get deeper than what it has been doing for the last 20-30 years. The claim that power electronics artists are "usually intelligent" does not hold up for me, but I believe at one point that it once did, and I'd like to see that day again. There are a lot more ways of being "transgressive" than knee jerk reactions from outsiders and
business as usual from insiders.
I find it funny that once people disagree, all of a sudden it is considered a "fight". I don't disagree with Mikko at all, by the way, but
...would be STILL matter of discussion 40 years later. does lend creedence to the need for more responsibility. Things did feel more free prior to the internet, but there were probably a lot more rip off artists, too.
Quote from: slagfrenzy tapes on November 29, 2019, 04:32:12 AM
Wow... Was this a shit fight about skullflower being dumped from a festival??
How did Mr FreakAnimalFinland get sucked into this. I thought he was better than that.
How did anybodies bullshit detectors not kick in until now???
Keep slapping each other, young fellas... snigga..
Don't worry honey, mommy & daddy aren't fighting, it's just a discussion. Everything will be fine!
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 29, 2019, 10:51:29 AM
You're not doing a very good job of making a straw man argument. Time to go back to the drawing board.
Not trying to. Just pointing out what I perceived as inconsistencies in your argument.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 29, 2019, 10:51:29 AM
I was just trying to add to the conversation in a way that brings up the question of why people are so offended by the haphazard use of some symbols rather than the haphazard use of other peoples' work in conjunction with those symbols
If you're sure about the artists on WP comp not being cool with the presentation based on that interview you read then I believe you. It is probably easier to mobilize people against the use of certain symbols and place it into a wider political narrative than to get them outraged over breaching artist consent. Stirring up the pot on both ends - obviously that quietus article is still being talked about which is sort of laughable.
Quote from: NO PART OF IT on November 29, 2019, 10:51:29 AM
My general qualm with Power Electronics is not the controversy, nor the subject matter, it's generally that pioneers are few and far between, and what's left are simple-minded, bottom-feeding muckrakers sucking the rotting teet of a bygone mythical golden age. (...) I think that a true exploration of power dynamics needs to get deeper than what it has been doing for the last 20-30 years. The claim that power electronics artists are "usually intelligent" does not hold up for me, but I believe at one point that it once did, and I'd like to see that day again. There are a lot more ways of being "transgressive" than knee jerk reactions from outsiders and business as usual from insiders.
The lack of pioneers is something every music genre suffers from. I value similar things you mention above, however some people are satisfied with shallow crafting of subject matter (if any) into sound within PE style. I am aware that "shallow" is a value statement here since it lacks meaning and depth for me, personally. You might aswell use the term "different" instead for 'shocking' edgy artwork, skimask vocals through a rat over MS20 adhering to the same 20 y/o style that hasn't changed. I always try to keep in mind the possibility that new people are entering the scene all the time and basically just try to copy the styles of their favorite projects before they progress to a more unique sound.
Well that was tedious and tiny bit off topic. Thought this threat was about current round of millennials being offended by the apparent rise of neo-nazis in the underground music scene
Don't worry honey, mommy & daddy aren't fighting, it's just a discussion. Everything will be fine!
[/quote]
I hope you got a good root, mommy from your 'discussion'
Quote from: Dekay71 on November 30, 2019, 05:44:59 PM
Well that was tedious and tiny bit off topic. Thought this threat was about current round of millennials being offended by the apparent rise of neo-nazis in the underground music scene
That is certainly one potential reading of this thread.
In the meantime a few subjects came up, which perhaps might be of interest to some. For example, whether more integrity is to be perceived in commenting, in public, on one's former self, or in publicly refraining from commenting on that self. Among other subjects.
Depends on what the former self that's being commented on consists of no?
I was going to add- it's none of my business but key to that is the question of whether pressure to comment is felt. Y'know, under pressure, real or perceived, stuff happens. Not all of it predictable.
Quote from: Dekay71 on November 30, 2019, 05:44:59 PMThought this threat was about current round of millennials being offended by the apparent rise of neo-nazis in the underground music scene
nobody involved in the original Skullflower situation was a millennial or in any way a newbie to the underground/noise scene, for what it's worth
Quote from: Cementimental on December 03, 2019, 04:20:42 PM
nobody involved in the original Skullflower situation was a millennial or in any way a newbie to the underground/noise scene, for what it's worth
This, is what seems to be situation with many of the cases. Plus, add, that like with Skullflower, you can't really see any "nazis" around. Guys who certainly know what's up with industrial music, behave as if they did not.
If this would be about "apparent rise of neo-nazis in the underground music scene", I would suspect that they would write about neo-nazis and not about Whitehouse, SJ, Skullflower or such, hah... If one would actually write articles about
neo-nazis, that would not be witch hunt.
Quote from: Cementimental on December 03, 2019, 04:20:42 PM
Quote from: Dekay71 on November 30, 2019, 05:44:59 PMThought this threat was about current round of millennials being offended by the apparent rise of neo-nazis in the underground music scene
nobody involved in the original Skullflower situation was a millennial or in any way a newbie to the underground/noise scene, for what it's worth
Just re-quoting Cementimental's quote cause I'd prefer that it were attributed to the person who actually said it. I wouldn't presume to admonish contributors on the trajectory of their discussion...well, unless that trajectory involved lifting quotes from others and attributing them to me of course.
Quote from: Cementimental on December 03, 2019, 04:20:42 PM
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on December 02, 2019, 05:00:27 PMThought this threat was about current round of millennials being offended by the apparent rise of neo-nazis in the underground music scene
nobody involved in the original Skullflower situation was a millennial or in any way a newbie to the underground/noise scene, for what it's worth
[/quote]
Wasn't referring to Skullflower in that way as well aware of mr bowers history and age. The millennials are the 20 somethings writing the in depth articles in quietus ec. About the fascism in the scene. If you look over the black sky thinking column there is a series of articles referring to this.
QuoteJust re-quoting Cementimental's quote cause I'd prefer that it were attributed to the person who actually said it.
oops yeah i broke the quote tag, fixed it now
Quote from: Dekay71 on December 04, 2019, 10:15:06 AM
Wasn't referring to Skullflower in that way as well aware of mr bowers history and age. The millennials are the 20 somethings writing the in depth articles in quietus ec. About the fascism in the scene. If you look over the black sky thinking column there is a series of articles referring to this.
As i said, neither people who wrote those articles, nor the organisers of the festival who cancelled skullflower, are 'millennials' or newbies to noise/underground music.
Millennial newcomers... perhaps not. Mewling faggots? Absolutely
Quote from: Dekay71 on December 04, 2019, 10:15:06 AM
The millennials are the 20 somethings writing the in depth articles in quietus ec.
Well, in the meantime millennials are actually more like the 30 somethings. What you are talking about are "zoomers" (lol)
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on December 02, 2019, 05:00:27 PM
Quote from: Dekay71 on November 30, 2019, 05:44:59 PM
Well that was tedious and tiny bit off topic. Thought this threat was about current round of millennials being offended by the apparent rise of neo-nazis in the underground music scene
That is certainly one potential reading of this thread.
In the meantime a few subjects came up, which perhaps might be of interest to some. For example, whether more integrity is to be perceived in commenting, in public, on one's former self, or in publicly refraining from commenting on that self. Among other subjects.
Yes some integrity is good, I'm so guilty of not using it.
Just integrity in general for comments in public... Not for history...
Within history, that's what you felt, looking backwards does not work, no guesswork, live with it, move on. That made you what you are.
Good point by the way.
Or on a different tack,
Its better to regret something you have done, than regret somethig you haven't - Butthole Surfers
i feel that nowadays a lot of noise people kind of hide behind the intent and transgression of older legendary acts. looking how nazi aesthetics were used by transgressive groups ranging from the hells angels to industrial musicians, those symbols were highly taboo yet the attitudes that they represent were very much still the same in society in a way that has changed dramatically in the past 30 years. now as we see the same kind of political groups as the nazis rise in popularity all over the western world, those symbols are not seen as a sign of transgression or "exposing" hypocrisy but support for a legitimate political movement that aims radical political change in society.
correct me if i'm wrong, but many 80s "controversial" lyrics were commentary on contemporary issues and attitudes (same as big blacks jordan, minnesota), not reflective of the artists own opinions or attitudes. sutcliffe jugend guys also commented on this, saying that modern PE is not to their liking as opposed to early 80s because their lyrics they meant to oppose certain misogynistic or racist attitudes by exposing them have become to represent general attitudes in the noise scene. ie. people didn't get their intent but took them 100% straight. same as what many people here are accusing the "radical left" of doing.
my point is, the world has changed and the political climate has changed since when the pioneering transgressive acts took all these taboos the noise scene still revolves around as inspiration. the internet is such a cesspool that those things do not shock anyone, using them as your main source of inspiration just makes people think you're a bigot.
Quote from: host body on February 18, 2020, 06:36:52 PM
i feel that nowadays a lot of noise people kind of hide behind the intent and transgression of older legendary acts. looking how nazi aesthetics were used by transgressive groups ranging from the hells angels to industrial musicians, those symbols were highly taboo yet the attitudes that they represent were very much still the same in society in a way that has changed dramatically in the past 30 years. now as we see the same kind of political groups as the nazis rise in popularity all over the western world, those symbols are not seen as a sign of transgression or "exposing" hypocrisy but support for a legitimate political movement that aims radical political change in society.
correct me if i'm wrong, but many 80s "controversial" lyrics were commentary on contemporary issues and attitudes (same as big blacks jordan, minnesota), not reflective of the artists own opinions or attitudes. sutcliffe jugend guys also commented on this, saying that modern PE is not to their liking as opposed to early 80s because their lyrics they meant to oppose certain misogynistic or racist attitudes by exposing them have become to represent general attitudes in the noise scene. ie. people didn't get their intent but took them 100% straight. same as what many people here are accusing the "radical left" of doing.
my point is, the world has changed and the political climate has changed since when the pioneering transgressive acts took all these taboos the noise scene still revolves around as inspiration. the internet is such a cesspool that those things do not shock anyone, using them as your main source of inspiration just makes people think you're a bigot.
Very likely true. I would add that there's possibly even a kind of retrospective confirmation happening in which material from 30 years ago is not being interpreted in relation to respective past era, but in relation to the contemporary; thus finding unfounded support for one's own political views from the older artists. I don't know your age but I would believe your analysis even more if I knew you had been active in the scene for the amount of time to witness both worlds.
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on February 18, 2020, 08:46:57 PM
Quote from: host body on February 18, 2020, 06:36:52 PM
i feel that nowadays a lot of noise people kind of hide behind the intent and transgression of older legendary acts. looking how nazi aesthetics were used by transgressive groups ranging from the hells angels to industrial musicians, those symbols were highly taboo yet the attitudes that they represent were very much still the same in society in a way that has changed dramatically in the past 30 years. now as we see the same kind of political groups as the nazis rise in popularity all over the western world, those symbols are not seen as a sign of transgression or "exposing" hypocrisy but support for a legitimate political movement that aims radical political change in society.
correct me if i'm wrong, but many 80s "controversial" lyrics were commentary on contemporary issues and attitudes (same as big blacks jordan, minnesota), not reflective of the artists own opinions or attitudes. sutcliffe jugend guys also commented on this, saying that modern PE is not to their liking as opposed to early 80s because their lyrics they meant to oppose certain misogynistic or racist attitudes by exposing them have become to represent general attitudes in the noise scene. ie. people didn't get their intent but took them 100% straight. same as what many people here are accusing the "radical left" of doing.
my point is, the world has changed and the political climate has changed since when the pioneering transgressive acts took all these taboos the noise scene still revolves around as inspiration. the internet is such a cesspool that those things do not shock anyone, using them as your main source of inspiration just makes people think you're a bigot.
Very likely true. I would add that there's possibly even a kind of retrospective confirmation happening in which material from 30 years ago is not being interpreted in relation to respective past era, but in relation to the contemporary; thus finding unfounded support for one's own political views from the older artists. I don't know your age but I would believe your analysis even more if I knew you had been active in the scene for the amount of time to witness both worlds.
i am 34, so sadly not old enough to have been involved with the early industrial noise scene. i base my analysis of the intent of old transgressive groups to reading on the subject. and also listening to a lot of industrial and noise, hah.
i'm sorry but this is a load of bullcrap
because...
first, the symbols in question were waaaay less taboo back then than they are now and
second, the only thing that changed is that back then authoritarian narrowminded assholes & volunteer snitches labeled themselves as conservatives
and now they prefer to be called "progressive left", and "antifascists", and "feminists"
but the overall situation is the same, only with more retardation and less tolerance for wrongthink
hence, the sad truth is that "nazi aesthetics" works exactly as it did in the 70s & 80s, only more efficiently
Quote from: A-Z on February 18, 2020, 09:52:26 PM
i'm sorry but this is a load of bullcrap
because...
first, the symbols in question were waaaay less taboo back then than they are now and
second, the only thing that changed is that back then authoritarian narrowminded assholes & volunteer snitches labeled themselves as conservatives
and now they prefer to be called "progressive left", and "antifascists", and "feminists"
but the overall situation is the same, only with more retardation and less tolerance for wrongthink
hence, the sad truth is that "nazi aesthetics" works exactly as it did in the 70s & 80s, only more efficiently
this is completely and utterly not true but i suspect it would be pointless to discuss it with you i'll give up before we even start and agree to disagree.
I was about to say - I don't even know where to begin. But I guess I can just copy their strategy of not addressing any particular point and then dismiss their whole argument by saying "that's a load of bullcrap" with the same legitimacy...
respectfully to herr asphalt but I don't think one needed to have been around back then to see the obvious, glaring irony of early Whitehouse (for instance), and it's partly due to an overdose of digital-cultural irony that people assume folks back then must have been entirely genuine in their presentation.
Do back then people cencored themselves to not be considered by others as bigots etc. ? Did they care ? Did audience care ? Seems not that much as today. Can you be creative this way ? - If you like someone's art why do you care what he is and try to categorize him with other criteria ? I ll tell you why, cause you care more about politics than about art. Maybe you feel angry he isn't on your side or ashamed of yourself you like his work. OK, understood, fine ! - Just be honest ! Points like this are not honest, also are wrong, and -psit- ineffective.
Quotethe internet is such a cesspool that those things do not shock anyone, using them as your main source of inspiration just makes people think you're a bigot.
Say you dont like -what you think is- their message. Say you like them to be different, say that you will fight them, say anything else than a half-political / half-musical career / personal advice [!] , like you do care of them . These people dont care what people will think of them, and if they do, that's their intention. - And yes those things still shock, more than ever it seems, judging by the reactions and crusades.
You're reading those attacks and articles wrong, or the intent and meaning behind them. They're not attacks on art, they're attacks on right wing politics, and the reason they've become so common is that right wing political parties and fringe groups are a legitimate threat to Liberal democracy in a way that definitely was not the same in the late 70s and early 80. Back then the "enemy" was conservatism (thatcherism in the UK, Reagan in the states) , which was what TG and Whitehouse were poking at with their music.
The reason for that article about bower was not that his nazi paraphilia shocked anyone, its because right wing groups are very active in their own informational war and spread propaganda online, so left wing liberals fire back. Too bad bower got in the middle of it. As FAF said, I would understand the article if they actually had written it about a real "nazi". Like Rob Miller from amebix, hah
Quote from: host body on February 19, 2020, 09:17:55 AM
.... Back then the "enemy" was conservatism (thatcherism in the UK, Reagan in the states) , which was what TG and Whitehouse were poking at with their music.
Prostitution @ ICA was in 1976 - The Second Annual Report 1977... "use of often disturbing visual imagery (such as fascist and Nazi symbolism, and pornography)" Thatcher came to power in 1979, following The Winter of Discontent, Reagan came to power in 1981 - following from Carter -" The end of his presidential tenure was marked by the 1979–1981 Iran hostage crisis, the 1979 energy crisis.." Bennett -""While I was playing guitar up onstage with Essential Logic as an 18-year-old back in 1978, I often fantasised about creating a sound that could bludgeon an audience into submission. "
Maybe poking at the given outward social mores of the day.... but maybe the use of 'Nazi symbolism, and pornography' to attack the likes of Mary Whitehouse didn't help the targets of the lady, either lady...
Quote from: JLIAT on February 19, 2020, 12:42:54 PM
Quote from: host body on February 19, 2020, 09:17:55 AM
.... Back then the "enemy" was conservatism (thatcherism in the UK, Reagan in the states) , which was what TG and Whitehouse were poking at with their music.
Prostitution @ ICA was in 1976 - The Second Annual Report 1977... "use of often disturbing visual imagery (such as fascist and Nazi symbolism, and pornography)" Thatcher came to power in 1979, following The Winter of Discontent, Reagan came to power in 1981 - following from Carter -" The end of his presidential tenure was marked by the 1979–1981 Iran hostage crisis, the 1979 energy crisis.." Bennett -""While I was playing guitar up onstage with Essential Logic as an 18-year-old back in 1978, I often fantasised about creating a sound that could bludgeon an audience into submission. "
Maybe poking at the given outward social mores of the day.... but maybe the use of 'Nazi symbolism, and pornography' to attack the likes of Mary Whitehouse didn't help the targets of the lady, either lady...
My mistake, they both started before thatcher and Reagan, but my point about conservatism still stands. Pornography, homosexuality, violent images etc. Could and would get you jail time back then. It's ludicrous to claim that the the kind of imaginery is as taboo now as it was in the late 70s or early 80s.
WTF guys. So-called Antifas has been pestering the scenes since the mid 90s blocking gigs of non-NS groups by guilt of association or presumptions. The more projects explained themselves or allowed to differ from their pre-sorosite/socialist worker agenda they got crucified. Some got physically attacked, some lost their jobs (all true) all based on assumptions.
I could make you a list of these accidents I have witnessed in first person who touched people I collaborated shoulder to shoulder and were in no way politically involved and neither used political symbols but just said things that underground illusionists didn't like, afraid to loose cultural monopoly.
I won't spend a single world regarding ambiguities that make post industrial and noise so interesting to many, since everything and the contrary of everything was said in this thread (see my previous posts if you are bored).
Mikko's last post suits my thoughts 100%. Deal with the guys you are after (if you have the guts), don't make up proxy-nazis involving people who are not saying what you think they are saying, and don't complain if somebody knock at your door if you spread lies.
Quote from: tiny_tove on February 19, 2020, 03:21:16 PM
Mikko's last post suits my thoughts 100%. Deal with the guys you are after (if you have the guts), don't make up proxy-nazis involving people who are not saying what you think they are saying
agree with this, it's stupid to "out" someone like bower
Quote from: host body on February 19, 2020, 02:35:49 PM
My mistake, they both started before thatcher and Reagan, but my point about conservatism still stands. Pornography, homosexuality, violent images etc. Could and would get you jail time back then. It's ludicrous to claim that the the kind of imaginery is as taboo now as it was in the late 70s or early 80s.
Agreed on this topic, but once can be still using these imagery and topics for different reasons. Personal obsession, focus on specific aspects of each of this.
SK are now a goofy topic that people should forget about THEN works of genious like Martin Bladh's work on Dennis Nielsen or mainstream TV shows like Manhunter comes and I drool like a girl in her prime in front of a boy band because there is still much to do with that.
Each noisester is dragged into this for different reason (including the good old fun at the expense of the others that is still the backbone of power electronics and has no ambiguity despite the apparent superficial statement). I don't want to get told what I have to read, buy, say, play, fuck, etc. And the above mentioned thought police plays with guilt where they cannot reach with boycott campaigns involving authorities or violence.
It has been a relatively quiet period compared to what happened in the 90's early 2000, but they now have these strong-power -sponsored think tanks that will point fingers because you beg to differ and will not leave space fore clear open discussion. Something I'm no longer to have with such scumbags.
I don't really wish to get embroiled in this, but I don't think the use of extreme Nazi imaginary, sado masochism, child pornography and serial murderers et al. was back in the 70s & 80s of any help or support to those defending the liberties of free speech, gay and feminist rights etc. which were under attack by the likes of Mary Whitehouse & her "Moral Re-Armament".
As far as i'm aware child pornography will still get you into jail these days along with the newer hate crimes... looking at it this way using pictures of Nazi death chambers and associated insignia 31 years after the actual events didn't get those using them into jail, 44 years later a group using certain extreme religious tropes and reference to events of 911 would.
In 1968 GPO publishing instructions on how to build a Molotov cocktail.... didn't, would something similar now?
I'm cautions to say this but it could be that TG & Whitehouse's themes back then was more to shock an audience, rather than any genuine political critique. I don't think they, certainly not GPO was advocating Nazi extremism and paedophilia any more than Jake and Dinos Chapman using similar tropes, including child pornography, as YBAs in the 90s. The "irony" of the YBAs being perhaps more obvious. That some took this at all seriously?
right wing political parties are a genuine threat? To what...illegal immigration? The rights of transvestites to striptease for 1st graders in the name of acceptance?
Sorry but you're a sucker who took the bait they've been forcing down our throats. Nobody protests the globalists ruining the world, but right and left are fistfighting in the streets over whatever issue is trending on IG that week. Wake up.
So, host body, you support to 'out' artists if they are really against your beliefs, in this case against liberal democracy. And you advice anyone 'innocent' to not use the 'wrong' inspiration, to avoid being a target by misunderstanding. It's that simple, isn't it ? Why the fuck do you need an analysis to cover , justify , excuse this ?
Quote from: host body on February 18, 2020, 10:24:26 PM
Quote from: A-Z on February 18, 2020, 09:52:26 PM
i'm sorry but this is a load of bullcrap
because...
first, the symbols in question were waaaay less taboo back then than they are now and
second, the only thing that changed is that back then authoritarian narrowminded assholes & volunteer snitches labeled themselves as conservatives
and now they prefer to be called "progressive left", and "antifascists", and "feminists"
but the overall situation is the same, only with more retardation and less tolerance for wrongthink
hence, the sad truth is that "nazi aesthetics" works exactly as it did in the 70s & 80s, only more efficiently
this is completely and utterly not true but i suspect it would be pointless to discuss it with you i'll give up before we even start and agree to disagree.
if you think nazi imagery was more shocking in the 80s than it is now, you're delusional. People are hailing pieces of shit like Mike Brown as heroes. Black Israelites are posting videos of white couples literally licking their boots in nyc. 20% of the population in the states commits 70% of the violent crime and the general feeling among 18-30 yr olds is to regard the offenders as disenfranchised kings. I don't know that there has ever been a creature on this earth as out of touch with reality as the modern day white liberal.
Quote from: PuddysJacket on February 20, 2020, 01:37:27 AM
Black Israelites are posting videos of white couples literally licking their boots in nyc.
Sounds hot. Link?
Quote from: Theodore on February 20, 2020, 01:10:14 AM
So, host body, you support to 'out' artists if they are really against your beliefs, in this case against liberal democracy. And you advice anyone 'innocent' to not use the 'wrong' inspiration, to avoid being a target by misunderstanding. It's that simple, isn't it ? Why the fuck do you need an analysis to cover , justify , excuse this ?
Please don't put words in my mouth, man. I don't support outing artists online, I don't like this modern Internet vigilante culture at all.
Quote from: host body on February 20, 2020, 08:04:27 AM
Please don't put words in my mouth, man. I don't support outing artists online, I don't like this modern Internet vigilante culture at all.
and this is exactly what the likes of Quietus, WMTN, etc. etc. have been doing for the past few years.
and before then other organized groups as well as keyboard warriors have been snitching out unaware people they had beefs with, crying injustice when dealt with.
There are many hilarious stories of the subject, some happening in Italy with guys attacking other guys, then gettin seriuosly beaten and then writing statements for being attacked by "masked nazis" to attract attention and pity. This was before social media where you could still have fun having face to face beefs.
Talk about a witch hunt...
Quote from: theworldisawarfilm on February 20, 2020, 03:16:37 AM
Quote from: PuddysJacket on February 20, 2020, 01:37:27 AM
Black Israelites are posting videos of white couples literally licking their boots in nyc.
Sounds hot. Link?
Lmao...get your vaseline tub ready
https://youtu.be/SrzOjxWbP_8
So the Order Of Nine Angels are making some news headlines again and a 22 year old US soldier looks likely to receive a life sentence a crazy story but I will post it since the OONA has been part of the discussion.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/u-s-army-soldier-allegedly-gave-classified-info-to-satanic-neo-nazi-group-sources-say/2478537/?_osource=db_npd_nbc_wnbc_twt_shr
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/06/22/us-soldier-plotted-with-satanic-neo-nazis-to-ambush-his-own-unit-overseas-feds-say/
O9A died out years ago (if it ever really got going) These days its just 4chan kids.
Quote from: Leewar on July 05, 2020, 05:02:41 PM
O9A died out years ago (if it ever really got going) These days its just 4chan kids.
o9a more of a threat now that it's not a little clique of effete englishmen trolling michael aquino
They used to get called "the order of no members" in the last Century.
Orgs like "Hope Not Hate" are calling for the UK government to proscribe them as a terrorist organisation now. So they are certainly in vogue for a change.
Quote from: eraciator on July 18, 2020, 11:23:24 PM
They used to get called "the order of no members" in the last Century.
Orgs like "Hope Not Hate" are calling for the UK government to proscribe them as a terrorist organisation now. So they are certainly in vogue for a change.
In fact here is a half hour podcast about O9A by Hope Not Hate (apologies for Apple link)
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/hope-not-hate/id1371522675?i=1000467337362
I have to say that these guys in the "extremism" industry have a vested interest in over hyping the danger of fringe groups. And calling for the state to ban things is a slippery slope.
Someone might get a good vocal sample out of that podcast though I guess.
Calling the O9A "neo-nazis" is lazy and inaccurate, given that neo-nazi groups hate their guts and ban their members at the first whiff of 'Traditional Satanism'. Just take a look at the threads on Stormfront regarding them and it should be clear how they're viewed by those groups. They are neither welcomed, nor appreciated and are considered to be making the far-right look bad.
Most, if not all of the current groups claiming to be O9A are full of shit and consist of a bunch of kids; online edgelords who want to make themselves look dangerous, but who never actually seem to follow through with any actions beyond posting pics of themselves on social media.
I've studied the O9A for over a decade and they most certainly haven't "died out". The fact we're talking about them in 2020 confirms that their memeplex has been successfully propagated, which was essentially the purpose of their second iteration (1986-2009). If the official line from Anton Long/David Myatt et al, is to be believed, post-2009 the O9A isn't even technically a satanic group anymore, having moved to the worship of Baphomet as archetypcal feminine.
Beyond the glamours and abstractions, there's a coherent system involved that has its roots in Greco-Roman hermeticism, alchemy and pre-Kabbalistic models.
"Hope not Hate" are a propaganda outlet, but they've got the ear of the media and government. This gives them more clout to throw around accusations without evidence. For all their claims of being about 'hope', they're a hateful bunch who actively try to ruin people over nothing more than the thoughts in their head. The ACLU and SPLC in the US are the same, and I wouldn't trust a single one of them.
Quote from: Japsi on July 21, 2020, 04:40:39 PM
Calling the O9A "neo-nazis" is lazy and inaccurate, given that neo-nazi groups hate their guts and ban their members at the first whiff of 'Traditional Satanism'. Just take a look at the threads on Stormfront regarding them and it should be clear how they're viewed by those groups. They are neither welcomed, nor appreciated and are considered to be making the far-right look bad.
Most, if not all of the current groups claiming to be O9A are full of shit and consist of a bunch of kids; online edgelords who want to make themselves look dangerous, but who never actually seem to follow through with any actions beyond posting pics of themselves on social media.
I've studied the O9A for over a decade and they most certainly haven't "died out". The fact we're talking about them in 2020 confirms that their memeplex has been successfully propagated, which was essentially the purpose of their second iteration (1986-2009). If the official line from Anton Long/David Myatt et al, is to be believed, post-2009 the O9A isn't even technically a satanic group anymore, having moved to the worship of Baphomet as archetypcal feminine.
Beyond the glamours and abstractions, there's a coherent system involved that has its roots in Greco-Roman hermeticism, alchemy and pre-Kabbalistic models.
"Hope not Hate" are a propaganda outlet, but they've got the ear of the media and government. This gives them more clout to throw around accusations without evidence. For all their claims of being about 'hope', they're a hateful bunch who actively try to ruin people over nothing more than the thoughts in their head. The ACLU and SPLC in the US are the same, and I wouldn't trust a single one of them.
David Myatt is an extremely interesting guy. I will say that. He uses an advanced form of Chaos Sorcery.