On not being an artist

[Brad]

..

[Half Aborted]

1) Do you believe industrial music is an art form that ANYONE, especially the musically talentless, can contribute to if they want to?  That's one of the myths that originally drew me to it, often alluded to in the early interviews of Throbbing Gristle, but I'm not sure I believe it now.  Maybe some people are naturally inclined to be capable industrial musicians, and some people aren't.  I'm not sure if by giving up I'm being more honest or lazy.

I think it's a great way of someone who might be musically talentless to learn a lot about sound and how to refine it into something worthwhile. I have no traditional musical skills, and have only been making noise for 3 years or so, but I'd say definitely now know a lot more about sound manipulation than someone who doesn't make any kind of music at all.

2) Do you believe that people not making their own sounds should just fuck off?

Absolutely not, if you're a sincere fan and supporter of the music then you're an essential part of it. No point making music just to fit in if it doesn't feel right.

[Andrew McIntosh]

If I might play armchair psychologist for a bit - I think you might be a tad over concerned about things like "social status" and how other people may perceive you if you're not actually making any music yourself. If, as you write, you are not motivated to record anything, that's totally your business. Maybe one day you will, maybe you wont - it's not a disaster either way.

Your second question, in particular, indicates how frustrated you are at being perceived as not included in some kind of scene, but seriously, what does that matter? If you're in a room where you're the only one not recording anything, so what? Has anyone really confronted you directly about it? The quote you give doesn't indicate that anyone not recording should "just fuck off", it's just one person's view of the scene he's involved in - you can be critical, but it's still just one person's opinion.

If you don't feel up to recording, just don't do it and try not to make it such a central concern. If anyone is going to get worried about you because you're not putting out some "limited edition" C-08 tape or something, you can tell them to just fuck off. Personally, I'd prefer people be honest and just admit they couldn't be bothered, or can't do it, than clog things up with their half-arsed attempts to be part of the "social status".

[Nyodene D]

To throw my hat into the ring as the interviewer here:

Active listening is a relative term i think. The fact that you've voraciously supported industrial music and culture for 25 years is activity enough.  Knowing Sean personally - and being the interviewer in this article -, I hardly imagine he'd turn down the support of someone who avidly supports the scene - even one who only listens.  I think he's trying to allude to the fact that you can use "indie" culture as  consumerist fashion statement that's approved by the mainstream (indie becoming the monoculture, being "safe" but still "underground").

Industrial in many ways doesn't allow for this kind of passive experience - fans have to put in a great deal of effort to explore, communicate and read about the music they enjoy and don't simply have the luxury of having their tastes dictated to them in a way that is so easy and accessible.  There are barriers to entry - supply, format, sonic or content aesthetics - that prevent passive listening.  

[Andrew McIntosh]

What bothers me is that I see myself as worthless because I don't produce anything, and I wanted to ask if I was being reasonable in thinking that.

To be blunt, no, and your feelings where pretty well established with your first post. To see yourself as worthless in any regards is never reasonable, and demands a bit more personal inquiry than regarding one's status in any music scene.

(It really amazes me how much self-loathing and mental illness gets expressed in the lyrics of some music- how do these people ever feel confident enough to produce/release anything???)

It has been discussed here before that expressing ideas and concepts in music is not the same thing as actually holding/acting upon those ideas and concepts in life. Also, people have varying degrees of self confidence to achieve, or not achieve, things they want to do. And also, some people are just so damn driven to express their feelings they just have to do it anyway.

[tiny_tove]

The world artist can be applied to two categories of people:

1/ an individual/group that creates culturally valuable artifacts via different medium that leave and becomes eternal through it. (futurism, rationalism, some pop art, etc.)

2/ an individual/group that creates artifacts that are marketable in a highly capitalistic environment made of galleries, lobbies, think tanks, critics, and (god bless them) rich farts that spend their money in artworks that are not necessarily culturally valuable.

I am all for the first one - not referring to myself of course - although I do not blame the second category, yet I despise who refer to himself as such.

There are example of industrial music that can be described as art, especially in the beginning when somehow it was criticising the system but somehow referred as target to many aspects of that, including art galleries. Or the fact that industrial music often goes along with installation and other artistic output. But definitely I think it all depends on all the individuals involved.
I myself do not consider an artist AT ALL. I make my living with something else and I do not think I am influencing changes.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

[

(It really amazes me how much self-loathing and mental illness gets expressed in the lyrics of some music- how do these people ever feel confident enough to produce/release anything???)

It has been discussed here before that expressing ideas and concepts in music is not the same thing as actually holding/acting upon those ideas and concepts in life. Also, people have varying degrees of self confidence to achieve, or not achieve, things they want to do. And also, some people are just so damn driven to express their feelings they just have to do it anyway.

If somebody creates lyrics with serial killers topics it doesn't mean that this artist must kill in reality to prove his authenticity. But. His authenticity is questionable when he expresses mainstream values in ordinary life, when he feels very good amongst so called normal people, parents, who wants to co-create society structures, who is condemning every murder, acts of terror from real life without willing to understand motives, and so on.

It's known that in art all things are redrawing by artists but those things should describe TRUE soul of artist, his real views and real relation to environment.

[tiny_tove]

"I do noise so I am your brother" died a long time ago.

THANK GOD FOR THAT!

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I myself do not consider an artist AT ALL.

Usually people think about artist as person who completed art colleges, who co-creates mainstream values, in art  and in society. And I understand your and other underground "artists" who don't want to belong to this phenomena. But you are still so called artist because you create something what influences to other people, what initiates feelings and changes (for better, I hope, whatever it could mean) mentality of receivers. You use musical and no-musical tools, some rules, cultural contexts, and, what is the most important, you want to say something to other people using not traditional, abstract language, so called ART.

[tiny_tove]

Usually people think about artist as person who completed art colleges, who is co-creates mainstream values, in art  and in society.

This could fit in both the categories I have mentioned.

there are people I consider "artists" who have academic background and that are into noise in the most sincere way (I think of IRM or Nico Vascellari).

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Usually people think about artist as person who completed art colleges, who is co-creates mainstream values, in art  and in society.

This could fit in both the categories I have mentioned.

there are people I consider "artists" who have academic background and that are into noise in the most sincere way (I think of IRM or Nico Vascellari).

Exactly. Some of them completed art schools and changed circles, or there are some underground musicians who didn't finish any art schools but they connected with academic/mainstream art circles.

[Ashmonger]

I don't see a reason why it would be a bad thing not to release or make your own music.
I do work on stuff, but on a rather irregular basis and nothing I made so far has spread wide, so is that better than not making music at all? I don't know.
And I don't have any education in instruments or much knowledge of music theory at all. But when I started listening to ambient and later to pe/noise I started listening more to sounds. So I enjoy creating and working with some sounds of my own and sometimes I'm not happy with the result, then I rework it until I'm happy with it. And that's totally unattached whether other people like it or not. I might even say more: I don't know whether the fact that not many people heard my stuff up to now is due to it not being very good or the fact that I'm hardly in contact with many people interested in the same stuff as me and I can't be bothered with doing much 'promotion' for it online...
Anyway, just saying that not making your own music is a perfectly fine decision and that when making music, you can ask yourself when you have really contributed something? Is it good enough if you like it yourself and you give it to 5 other people or do you have to have a label release your stuff? In that way I think it only depends on what you yourself are satisfied with.

[Zeno Marx]

There are an infinite number of ways to be creative, expressive, and to free it to elsewhere.

[acsenger]

I don't make music either and never will. I don't feel I would be good at it and I'm sure if I tried, it would feel forced and unnatural. I do believe one must have talent to create any kind of music, so not anyone can do it (by this I mean not anyone can make GOOD music, whatever kind it is). I've never felt "less" in any way because I don't play music -- heck, I don't even have friends who like the same kind of music as I do. However, the joy I get out of listening to experimental music, the collecting, the discovery of new music, reading the SI forum etc. is where the pleasures of being a music fan lay for me. I don't feel the need to create music myself; there are enough people out there who have the talent to do so and there is certainly more good music out there than I will ever get to hear.
I can only hope you'll also be able to enjoy being "only" a listener for what it is and not feel you need to be more!

[online prowler]

Briefly, I'd like here to make a comment to Brad's inquiry.

The majority of regular industrial/noise forum posters, it seems, are involved in making their own sounds.  Perhaps not always as "known" artists, but at least in a hobby capacity.  I am not.  In 25 years of life, I have not demonstrated the slightest motivation, knowledge or ability to create anything resembling a presentable recording.  And this is not another thread where I pathetically beg you all to tell me how to get there, because I know at this point in my life, after years of wanting it and doing nothing, it is not realistically going to happen!  I've decided to fully admit that I am not a participating member of this music scene, and never will be.  I suck.  Two questions:

1) Do you believe industrial music is an art form that ANYONE, especially the musically talentless, can contribute to if they want to?  That's one of the myths that originally drew me to it, often alluded to in the early interviews of Throbbing Gristle, but I'm not sure I believe it now.  Maybe some people are naturally inclined to be capable industrial musicians, and some people aren't.  I'm not sure if by giving up I'm being more honest or lazy.

2) Do you believe that people not making their own sounds should just fuck off?  In Special Interests #7, Sean Ragon (Cult of Youth) was quoted:

In the underground, everyone in the room is an active participant, and their level of involvement dictates their social status.  In the indie world, the room is full of consumers who are judged by the rules of straight society.  They are ranked by their money, their looks, and who they know.  The inaccessibility of the artist, however, always triumphs and "backstage access" is the ultimate fetish.  The fans are there to be entertained by a band that maintains a safe distance from them and therefore creates the illusion that they are "important."  Sometimes they create an environment that mimics something that exists in the underground, but it is inherently false, and it is little more than cultural tourism...

So as someone with zero social status in underground music, do I even deserve to be listening to it?  (For the record, I've never listened to a single song by Cult of Youth, and maybe he wouldn't want me to.)  I've wasted so much time being nearly obsessed with a genre and subculture that I can make no positive contribution to, and that is depressing.  Maybe I should just get out, and sell all my records to someone who is worthy of owning them.

This thread is a potential minefield to thread into ...

see it have gotten quite the clicks, but few postings. This, in it self, should state both the curiosities and complexities connected to developing creative works- both theoretically and in praxis. I for one have no recipe, but I recognize there are a few things that affect and decide in how one approach and develop own projects. Mainly this connects to- and are governed by life in general. This post should be understood in this context, not as a direct suggestion or guideline for anybody.

I find that one's personal background and daily existence are the main deciding source in all facets of life. I don't want to elaborate too much on this, just state a fact. I am sure if everybody take 15 minutes to brood about ones overall existence, a fairly decent map of ones personal history and situation will be produced: Probably pleasant and unpleasant in tone. Point being: one should in all honesty understand own history and current situation, both subjectively- and objectively, as a fundament for who one is- and this as a factor for the general output in life. Creative work is a lengthening and expression of ourselves (one could stretch this notion into indirectly include our surroundings, history and the present as well). Alas, one can understand own artistic output as a reflection of oneself and where one come from.

Seeing ones life from a mountain top so to speak, it is possible to hone themes to be used in own artistic projects. As well as paying attention to topic, one should always try to be conscious about how one executes (method) a work- as well as the packaging (presentation) of it. At best, a correlation between the three: Topic, method and presentation are the best. Do like John Wayne: Walk like you talk, no perfume. This, in general and very short, is the platform to work from as I see it. Furthermore, engaging in an any activity demands a degree of experience. Though personally, I feel initiative and attitude to be far more important ingredients. One can understand and learn basically anything if one invest time and effort into it. To my knowledge one comes to a point when considering something. If one is invested and feels inclined to do it, I think one should take oneself seriously and react upon it. Proceed from scratch. Start w the resources available. Serious equipment is not needed. Everybody has to start somewhere. I am positive that there are people having similar concepts/ideas of stuff they want to do. Ask friends and be open to like-minded people, develop an own community- and give a rats ass about what others may say or think.

In closing... I still find it strange that I haven't heard of any a-cappella noise choirs. That'd fucking great!  

Kudos for the thread.