The Peak of P.E.

[KMusselman]

Who agrees with me that the peak of P.E. happened in the late 90's through the early years of 2000?  For me, there is no intrigue/mystery any more.  I wish for the days before the internet.  There is just too much information out there.  Even the artists from this time period have called it quits or have moved on in new directions.  Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the U.S. Bestial Forces 3xCD on L-White, yet I'm not interested enough to pursue the material of any of the new artists.  Dare I say I am getting bored with the genre?  Where is the obscurity?

Maybe there IS something to the CHANGE OF CLIMATE IN NOISE / SOCIAL FACTOR / GENERATION ME thread.

just trying to generate some discussion...

[Zeno Marx]

'88-'98, possibly.  Can you give me a couple examples of post-'98 greats?  I'm not very well versed after that year.  When I think of the possible end of the golden era, I think of Ex.Order, Thorofon, Soldnergeist, Einleitungszeit (though all of their albums impress me in different ways), and a few other European groups that were on their own path and consistently high quality.

[Andrew McIntosh]

This is about as subjective as it gets. Did PE peak in Britain in the 1980's? Is it peaking in the US right now? I have to say I've never thought about it ever having a paticular period when it peaked - it seems to go from phase to phase, from place to place.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I talked with some friends about the lack of specific "zeitgeist" in the modern  noise scene (think noise as umbrella term for a lot of things).
You can see many things in past, which not all appear clear when it is happening, but you will realize it when it's gone. Or it will make big impact in beginning, but even with stable quality material, simply attention spam for people finding new and fresh things is not long enough to digest slow moving evolution. They need new drastically different material.
But lets see...

-Industrial music 70's early 80's ?
-UK power electronics early 80's (WH, SJ, CE, Ramleh..)
-UK power electronics mid 80's to 90's (Grey Wolves, Con-Dom, etc..)
-German heavy electronics / industrial late 80's 90's (Genocide Organ, Ex.Order, Dagda Mor, Anenzephalia,...)
-Swedish death industrial late 80's / 90's (Lille Roger, BDN, CMI related in general)
-Finnish power electronics late 90's (Pain Nail, Order, Grunt, Strom.ec, Cloama, Bizarre Uproar, etc etc)
-Finnish power electronics of 2000's (Filth & Violence related etc)
-Swedish 2000's post-"Utmarken" tape noise rawness, sewer election, altar of flies, + ton more
-Danish 2010+ posh isolation related
-USA late 80's and early 90's (I.A., Slogun, Deathpile, Taint, Final Solution,...)
-USA late 90's 2000's new wave (Prurient, Wolf Eyes, No Fun, Hospital, Hanson etc related)
-USA mid 90's tape harsh noise crunch (macro, stimbox, ramirez, etc etc)
-USA mid 2000's harsh noise puritanism (maybe Troniks label catalogue speaks for itself!)
-USA 2005-> new wave of PE (well check Bestial USA forces for like 50 names!)
-Japan 80's to perhaps mid 90's noise
-Italia 80's power electronics (MO, Sodality, Swatika Kommando..)
-Italia 90's lethal electronics (Slaughter prod, Murder Corporation etc etc)
ääähhhaaahh.....
I believe there are tons of good stuff happening. We could ad certain moments of Russian industrial. Russian radio-noise. I believe there is pretty intense stuff happening in Australia as we speak.
List could go on and on, dissect further eras from country to another, depending one once perspective and location, what exactly he has been following and what kind of collective spirit has made the impact.
Some of these include bands that existed before and after "phenomena", but surrounding and climate simply passed by.

Many of these things happened in relatively slow rate, and even if you could see that simultaneously and often bleeding into eachother. there is waves of Tesco industrial, CMI and such... there is the also other things.  While Finland may be relatively known for certain type of noise, at the same time, the hyped collectible free-folk-noise would dominate certain magazines and distribution lists while those who follow noise from industrial edge may remain utterly clueless about it. While other remembers 90's Germany from Tesco and Power & Steel/LOKI, the other will remember Drone Records, Selection and Artware.

So how you measure "peak" ? What quality would that peak be? The moment you're personally interested - or some other quality what CAN be somehow measured? Amount of bands? Amount of labels? Amount of releases that gain classic status? Amount of live shows and interest from people to visit them? Amount of media attention?  Whatever?

What makes the current situation different, is simply the lack of zeitgeist manifesting in same manner like in old times. No matter is there is 20 groups around to world doing something, it simply ain't the same as climate where bands and label rosters and locations are tied together firmly. And where this phenomena is much much more than couple good artists.

I would dare to say, that no matter how amazing Japanese noise album would be made now, it will be forever regarded inferior to albums of classic "golden years" of Japanese noise - simply due lack of collective spirit / cultural climate.
Same could be said that no matter how good UK PE album someone new comes up with, they will always be looked differently of early 80's or late 80's.
The spirit of the times can't be really be forced. I think the "branding" and making scenes won't necessarily bring any memorable results, but make that artificiality as the spirit!
Like I mentioned, I would assume that most currently happening things are something you will only realize later on. You may sleep over the rise of great swedish rough sounding "tape industrial" and notice in 2020 how there was such a golden years in 2012?

From list I mentioned, I think there are currently ongoing currents what has proven strong and very personal. Will they match the legacy of Tesco/CMI/slaughter/AWB/Bloodlust/Praxis Dr.Bearmann etc... only time will tell. It's certainly true there are hardly too many LABELS who would set some concrete milestones for us to remember! You know, if L.White from germany could pull fucking 50 US PE bands for compilation, how come there is hardly a label in USA who'd create monolith of this phenomena in some other form than ltd 50 tapes sold to friends in facebook (excuse slight exaggeration)?

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I talked with some friends about the lack of specific "zeitgeist" in the modern  noise scene (think noise as umbrella term for a lot of things).
You can see many things in past, which not all appear clear when it is happening, but you will realize it when it's gone. Or it will make big impact in beginning, but even with stable quality material, simply attention spam for people finding new and fresh things is not long enough to digest slow moving evolution. They need new drastically different material.
But lets see...

I would add yet for example:

-French new wave of experimental postindustrial 80s (ART & TECHNIQUE, LE SYNDICAT, ETANT DONNES, ENTRE VIFS, VIVENZA, DENIER DU CULTE, M.NOMIZED, LA NOMENKLATUR, LA SONORITE JAUNE, STENKA BAZIN etc.);
-Spain postindustrial of 80s (Francisco LOPEZ, EG, L'AKSTREMAUNCIO, MACROMASSA, COMMANDO BRUNO, ESCUPEMETRALLA, DISENO CORBUSIER etc.);
-Dutch noise-postindustrial of 80s and 90s (KAPOTTE MUZIEK, HYWARE, DE FABRIEK, BEEQUEEN, MEER STAAL, ODAL, Roel MEELKOP, THU20 etc.)
- Yugoslovian industrial of 80s. (LAIBACH, ABBILDUNGEN VARIETE, SAT STOICISMO, BORGHESIA, Mario MARZIDOVSEK, etc.)
- Polish experimental postindustrial and noise of 80 and 90s (BUDIMEX '55, WAHEHE, Zbigniew KARKOWSKI, McMARIAN, TOTART DDA, GENETIC TRANSMISSIONS, ZA SIÓDMĄ GÓRĄ, RONGWRONG, MARCHLEVSKY etc.);
-Swizz experimental noise 80/90 (SCHIMPFLUCH GRUPPE, NACHTLUFT, G*PARK, SUDDEN INFANT)

Any genre has its peak and fall. Any genre (especialy noise/PE/industrial) can survive but artists must break rules, even these rules which are against to other.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Perhaps more interesting than consider what is the "peak" of some vague genre, would be something like this. To spot and identify some strong moments in the genre, which made something interesting, something unique what sets it apart from rest to something what can be seen as thing of its own.

Each addition of certain "spirit of the time/moment" listed by ImpulsyStetoskopu is very vital and important. Their links to what is considered "power electronics" is also often quite easy to find.

Then worrying about one phase becoming history and next phase taking over, seems useless, when few decades of history and amazing bands must be largely unknown for bigger public? I'm thinking each of these "moments" would warrant discussion of it's own - with references of essential releases - links to previews if available.

You know, how often you hear people talking of Sat Stoicizmo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8QuAuBy1eA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RJFVfR6FN4&feature=related
It's at the same time very vintage, but futuristic. I guess the old releases are now quite hard to get so I don't blame the younger folks to miss these..

[martialgodmask]

Maybe I'm stuck in a much-prolonged honeymoon period with noise (and related), but threads like this make me a little sad. Maybe it's the idea that the bubble will burst for me some time! Like Andrew said, I guess it's ultimately such a subjective stance as different people will get different things out of different periods. I'm just pleased that I'm not on the downward stretch.

[TS]

It doesn't seem realistic that there should be an ultimate peak, and from there on just a downward slope. I've always thought that genres have times where there is tons of good shit coming out, and then periods where there isn't that much happening(or I just haven't been able to track it down), before it peaks again. Ofcourse, where those peaks are is subjective.. I don't see an overload of easily accessible music as a problem, really. If you check something out, and don't like it, don't listen to it. Then again, I didn't exist before the internet, so maybe I can't appreciate what a golden age it truly was.

Sat Stoicizmo was pretty cool, by the way. Thanks!

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

You know, how often you hear people talking of Sat Stoicizmo?

I can only suppose :) This group was very unique and mystery. Their music is one of the most original ever. In my opinion, there are more such great diamonds which is known only by few people. We all know English/American/West European well known projects, but we don't want (or only from time to time, randomly) to know those less known, from small countries where weren't/aren't good tradition for such music. Always Canada will be in the shadow of USA. Who knows and likes Canadian INTERSYSTEMS group? Why this group is less known than American SILVER APPLES or CROMAGNON from those years? Why Russian ZGA is less known than French DDAA, German P16.D4, English AMM? Why anybody doesn't talk about Ukrainian SHEIK H-FI when are listed TG, DOME or NWW?

I guess the old releases are now quite hard to get so I don't blame the younger folks to miss these..

If I can use this place and situation. In this year I am going to issue 3-way CD box of LE SYNDICAT with old recordings, not re-released yet tapes, and 2 or 3-way CD box compilation too, the great Slovenian band ABBILDUNGEN VARIETE, so younger folks can know "classic" better :)

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I started to work on two listings focused loosely on "PE", to somehow document the history.

List of PE labels and short introductions. Should be probably updated. There's bunch of new appearing since this was done:
http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=12.0

Canon of PE:
http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=13.0

(NOTE: both these still welcome additions/suggestions etc! Don't be shy even if suggestion might meet utter disagreement, hah..)

Encyclopedia of industrial music -book series by Impulsy Stetoskopu will remain source book to refer.
But as for complete history written by someone - I think it does not exists. If it would, I'm sure it would remain always incomplete and under debate of various things.

IF someone will someday write history of genre, I would guess good starting point to approach is to observe:
-What bands have existed, what are their most relevant releases, what was their influence, etc.
-What labels have existed and how they operated etc.
-What magazines existed and what type, etc.
Putting in chronological and geographical order, possibly seeing how they approach sound/theme/technology/communication and how it crosses over with other groups or labels.

Perhaps hopefully reach to artists to see their influences and ideas (see SI the essentials feature).


Perhaps among the different era's, one should not forget for example 80's Japanese industrial. Even with some cross-over, it's still hard to lump Vasilisk, Grim, Dissecting Table and such among "jap noise".

[Zeno Marx]

The Sat Stoicizmo LP was always relatively scarce, but the 2LP/CD was distributed well.  It collected dust in distros.  Ended up being a highly discounted item.  I remember seeing the CD still not sell for $4.  Didn't Groundfault have to give them away?  And that was in a time when listeners were much more open and inquisitive about sound than they seem to be now.  This would be an interesting thread; releases of high quality that went unnoticed.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I think audio compilation would be plain impossible to make representative. Even if being like 10 CD box or something. I think it is also perhaps fault of some contemporary compilation that tracks sometimes appear as if they were made to be safe / "representative". While from older compilations tend to find surprising tracks. At least that's my gut feeling.

To dissect the genre to audio compilations of something specific, there is recent topic of "national compilations" or something like that. Compilations focusing on specific region in specific time.

The Sat Stoicizmo LP was always relatively scarce, but the 2LP/CD was distributed well.  It collected dust in distros.  Ended up being a highly discounted item.  I remember seeing the CD still not sell for $4.  Didn't Groundfault have to give them away?  And that was in a time when listeners were much more open and inquisitive about sound than they seem to be now.  This would be an interesting thread; releases of high quality that went unnoticed.

LP or 12" if you want to call it that, was re-issued on CDR. Now when you look discogs, there is no CD's, there is no 12"s, but only the double LP going from 20,- for rugged copy to 50,- mint.
I think Artware made BIG editions. And no matter how good some of the stuff on label were, they were sold at discount. In the last days when Donna had already died, I bought some Artware titles for 2,-/each wholesale rates. Even if Dedication II isn't as good as first one, it's still weird with line-up consisting Hijokaidan, CCCC, Macronympha, Putrefier, Nord, Chop Shop, Aube, etc.. and mint copies in discogs for 4 euro... ridiculous. With some things, pressings are maybe too big compared to potential.

[bitewerksMTB]

"I believe there is pretty intense stuff happening in Australia"

Info on Australia please.

[STREETMEAT]

From list I mentioned, I think there are currently ongoing currents what has proven strong and very personal. Will they match the legacy of Tesco/CMI/slaughter/AWB/Bloodlust/Praxis Dr.Bearmann etc... only time will tell. It's certainly true there are hardly too many LABELS who would set some concrete milestones for us to remember! You know, if L.White from germany could pull fucking 50 US PE bands for compilation, how come there is hardly a label in USA who'd create monolith of this phenomena in some other form than ltd 50 tapes sold to friends in facebook (excuse slight exaggeration)?

i think comps like what l. white did bring out people into noise that just want to be on a release so they do a "one off' pe track/project. i really didnt like how that release came out. im sure it could have been done better in just one disk. i see how/why people use facebook(i dont) im sure its just a thing of the times(like myspace)
as for the limited to 50 copy statement i really dont see why you would need more then that for a tape. if it keeps getting good reviews/sells out fast/see people selling it for ridiculous prices would be more of a reason to make more copies. but labels worldwide making 99 copies of a lp, or 200 cds and never planing to repress is just as bad? maybe if that release is good enough it gets picked up by someone willing to make more copies.

and as for "peak of pe" if that was really the case what would be the point of going on? there is still GREAT amount of artist doing fantastic work. spend your money and find them.

[kettu]

in many genres the begining or at least the early times are best. and as much as I like currents things the 80s were extreme. proper underground stuff.

you might see a couple of disgruntled messages about a swastica cover art now but those youngsters were doing it 30 years ago.