Refinement and nuance versus brutality and simplicity

[Peterson]

Recently this has been on my mind often, and a divisive topic for me when trying to choose what to listen to when I'm not in the mood for anything specific. I realized, there is really two approaches to electronics (be it HN, PE, Indus., ambient/drone, whatever) and they generally don't often mix, with couple of exceptions that I can think of.

The first category would be intensely refined and nuanced material, stuff that requires many tracks or layers to create, with a lot of variation in the source sound, lots of different atmospheres and directions to take the songs in, many different techniques; for example, a project such as Grunt or Slogun which has pretty much all the "best" techniques, just used sparingly and only for specific effect. It's all there, wall-noise blasing, cut-up wierdness, industrial rythms, high-end screech, synthesizer "ambience" or drones, et cetera. It's just that to me many acts use an assemblage of these qualities in a very "musical" sense, as one would play a guitar riff an appropriate number of times but switching to a new one well before the previous has ceased to be interesting. I have noticed that especially nowadays the "big-name" noise and PE acts are generally all falling within this category. I ask, is it due to thier experience within the genre? Has being in noise for 15+ years caused them to become bored by potential overuse of extended techniques? I guarantee there will be no HNW recordings or xerox-insert c20s from masters such as Grunt, Macronympha, Merzbow, Slogun, Sick Seed, etc. Is this because thier extensive knowledge of the medium has lead to a restlessness of sound? Has the hi-fi refined "professional" noise become a subcategory of it's own?? And if this is the case, has it made noise in general a more accessible scene to other underground communities?

The second category would be the minimalist, less-refined, "sleaze" material. I'm thinking Taint/Mania, Bizarre Uproar, The Rita, and new American acts when I think of a simpler approach to putting down tracks. Here I think of more improvisation, a more "I pressed record and started recording" mentality, in an entirely positive sense. Here I cannot decide wether it is more important for these types of artist to be extremely familiar with the equipment they use than the previous category because I could see a minimalist approach having drawbacks in both a live setting and the studio. Not everyone's idea of PE is hearing XE feedback oscillations with ranting over it, and furthermore, to many that kind of approach is a lazy one. I would say I disagree, however, because limitations in equipment bring about a greater appreciation for what can be produced, and this is exactly the situation out of which some of my favorite noise has been born. Is it necesarry for an artist to explore thier limitations before exploring new tools and areas of sound? Will this benefit the future material? I think you can hear that sort of progression with the tools in most Taint recordings, they are all characteristically minimal with no real "production," but nothing else would work. What are some other examples of artists that have gotten by on barely anything?

The real question that comes up, to me, is, "where can one find the perfect balance?" Chances are you already are thinking of a few examples from each category, so there's no need to establish which is preferable. Either can be appropriate depending on what is being expressed and possibly the format of the release. But what happens when one sees a hideous mash-up of intense refinement and total improvised ugliness? To me, therein lies the highest potential for quality harsh sounds. So far one of the only projects I can think of that sits firmly in this middle area is Gelsomina, I could go on forever about how much I love this band. I think "Disease With A Purpose," "Nostalghia," and "Greenaway" are probably some of the most loud and abrasive recordings in existence whilst remaining beautiful and serene the entire time. They have a composed feeling at times and a totally improvised crazy uncontrollable feeling the other half of the time. It's because of this I feel Gelsomina is some of the most underrated harsh noise that has ever existed and will ever exist. I remember reading an interview with Mikko on the Pure Stench forums some months ago about how there is a dichotomy of corruption and serenity within most noise, and I think that Gelsomina taps straight into this and extracts the nectar. Are there other artists that perform this function for you??

[Andrew McIntosh]

Firstly, agree with you about Gelsomina. Always preferred that project to Sick Seed. If you haven't yet, get the split cd with Squamata, "Junkyard Behemoth". Some of Pekka's better material, that I've heard.

For refinement in PE I tend to think of IRM, Budrus, Control, projects like that. Some of the sounds can get almost "clean". For brutality I can't go past early British PE. As a matter of fact I'd suggest that your basic British projects would be the best synthesis between the two elements. The Grey Wolves probably being the best example as they where (and probably still are) able to go from straight up fuck you (live recordings mostly) to more sophisticated, layered and produced material ("Blood And Sand", "Through Constant Decay", etc.) without loosing a balance between both. In these cases the brutality of these projects was a combination of enthusiasm and having to do their best with raw equipment. Recordings tend to be nice and lo-fi which brings an element of both brutality and purity.
  I'd also say that some of the more recent US projects like The Vomit Arsonist and Nyodene D make an effort in bringing both together. I'd also argue that projects like The Haters Chop Shop and (individuals like) Eric Lunde combine filth, abruptness and (definitely) minimalism with a strong sense of purpose and refinement. You've also got your Japanese classics like The Incapacitants and Government Alpha who have, over the years, developed truly masterful technique in improvisation that allows them to create with both intense abruptness and controlled touch so that they can bring in all the best of the elements you refer to.

When I think of smoother, more "minimalist" kind of PE sound I tend to think of Death Industrial like Attrax Morgue. Which also, in fact, is very planned and structured in some parts (longer, live material is usually improvised). I tend to think that minimalism often demands (although not always necessarily needs) a structured response - Eleh, for example (nothing to do with Noise or PE, just an example).

You ask a lot of questions that I wouldn't want to hazard an answer to, for the most part. I would think that people who have been creating Noise for over a decade or so (and that's actually a lot of people right now) have gone through various phases of interest. It's not so much abandoning one concept or group of techniques for another as when you have a background you can draw on whatever elements you want for current and future work and in any case, you'll always be you, so whatever elements are within you will always be present in some way.

[alessio]

great topic, to me just one of the most interesting issues in the noise field
the idea of noise (but it probably works as good for pe too) as 'music', as musical matter, as a specific spectrum of sounds produced by - mostly - unconventional instruments, which gets the same treatment of 'music' (and then - more or less - accurately composed, structured, edited, mastered...) 'against' that of noise as 'pure' brutal phenomena, so to say, in its philosophical meaning of something formless, raw and intrinsically UNrefined (hence mostly improvised - which doesn't necessarily means everything is just random shit -, not edited/overdubbed, lo-fi and so on)
not making any anti-music statement here, just pointing out a 'conceptual' opposition, a substantial polarization

i see how some can look at the second approach as lame, easy to do and uninspiring, while the first one is always seen as artistically 'superior' (which may even be true in some cases, but they should also consider how it can often be quite easier to achieve a more interesting result by actually working on hours of raw material, than to achieve the same by simply pressing rec)

anyway it obviously depends on your own idea of noise, maybe it's not at all about artistic effort, difficulty, complexity, being interesting, innovative and the likes...
in fact when your concept of noise tends to the second pole of this opposition, any working on the raw matter can just be seen as something unnatural, an act that 'corrupt' the purity of noise itself, somehow

even the simplest, rawest approach (which i see often criticized) is valid and worthy when it's intentional, conscious and motivated by a specific idea of noise and it's not just completely random and pointless

edit: btw sorry if i went too 'conceptual' and didn't mention any project, just wanted to share some feeling on the subject...

[PTM Jim]

To me a lot of the early 2000s (2000-2005 or so) harsh noise was a major bridge between these two.  Performers such as Ahlzagailzeguh, Viodre, early Pedestrian Deposit (and a few more that I can't think of right now off the top of my head).  They had entire tapes, albums, etc. that had composed tracks, improv tracks and tracks with both. However, it's often hard to tell the difference because the improv was done so well that it sounded composed.
While certain composed tracks may have had many layers added, the improv tracks were layered often as a result of multiple channels being cut in/out and panned. Yet sometimes it would be two mics and a few pedals.  The idea may be to trick you mind.

Sorry if that doesn't answer any of your questions.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I think the "new good harsh noise" topic I started some days ago might walk hand in hand with this topic. Trying to find the "missing" fine middle-way of good and well done material.
I think something like Merzbow "artificial invagination" is something where many things culminate for me. In noise, that is. Nobody could deny how fierce, violent and brutal it is. But even less could deny the perfection of nuances, transitions, variation in sonic qualities and power of dynamics. This is perhaps one of the key qualities of missing refinement in contemporary harsh noise. When most of the material is simply "all as loud as possible" and every soundfile you see, is totally flat on its peak level. And yes it may appear "loud", yet only in the dummy way. And a lot of stuff moves within very narrow range of shakebox or synth and you wonder how long this can remain interesting?

I think one doesn't necessarily need any "musical qualities" really. It would be more about thinking would I be interested listening this kind of stuff, and preferably even multiple times? That there is more to be heard when you go through it. Not that you felt you had heard it all before the 1st listening was finished?

Best of such material may require attention on all levels. Where each layer is everything else but "clean", but the careful search for right kind of dirt will eventually result feeling of refinement rather than fierce in your face noise.

but to answer Peterson's question:
I would guess the shift of mentality is often based simply in the possibilities. Now the tools at hand, might be something in style of Chaos Pad, Nintendo synth simulator, etc. And recordings are made in digital environment only. First time when signal becomes actual soundpressure is when someone plays it on speakers. All sorts of gadgets and technology is available cheap. Small size or even virtual.
People who in past had to settle to less, might have been doing the "middle way", but now can proceed fully into lap top and sharp computer plugins. Many such people have complained how other artists are such a lame retro stuff, that buy old gear and release "shitty sounding stuff", yet I find many of the most sound-conscious and sound-obsessed people from that dirtier side. Who have zero interest to match the cinematic PE qualities or hiss-free electronica. They obsessively study relation of sounds to concrete existing environment and various processes of amplification or decay.. for example. And they may go through difficult tasks and vast experiments to get it just right. In that context, to me, is often so brutally clear how some of the "raw PE" is utmost work of genius (or luck?) and others utmost clueless crap. Simply due fact that nuances matter in raw side just as much.

[alessio]

I think one doesn't necessarily need any "musical qualities" really. It would be more about thinking would I be interested listening this kind of stuff, and preferably even multiple times? That there is more to be heard when you go through it. Not that you felt you had heard it all before the 1st listening was finished?

Best of such material may require attention on all levels. Where each layer is everything else but "clean", but the careful search for right kind of dirt will eventually result feeling of refinement rather than fierce in your face noise.

let me just refine the point of my previous post by saying this may be one of the poles about listening to / enjoying harsh noise (which to me is similar to the one you approach 'music' with, that of interest and attention on all levels and on composition)

the other one (which i find especially connected to this 'genre') is about pure physical/masturbatory pleasure
the pleasures stimulated by harsh matter and your subjective fetishes about it
probably of the same nature of those caused by pornography, by violence/gore and this kind of nasty stuff, working mostly as a physical appetite than on a rational level

what i want to say is, you can be willing to get back to an harsh noise release for the 'listening' / intellectual pleasure of it, to discover new details (like you say) OR just for the physical pleasures it awakes in your body
(this is obviously a conceptual topology, in reality you always get a little of both pleasures in different proportions, so to say, anyway i guess it works well as an explanation)

[Bloated Slutbag]

Gomikawa Fumio - The Return Of Gomikawa Fumio cd (Alchemy)

The Mikawa flops it out in Kosakai orchestrated Jerk chamber. What to say, the shit bugs the fuck out of me. Am I to ingest in the trad full boar manner or am I to accept that Fumio and Go spent ages diddling themselves over an editing deck and two bottles of shochu? The refinements come later say liner notes, aural passages suggest otherwise. What makes things worse is an apparent extended middle digit toward brutalisme proper. Well, fuck thee sires. Back up three degrees and it is there. Go forward half a degree and I'm into the ruptured minutiae.

Fuck it. Just fuck it.