Special Interest

Just as the title said.
No polemic or beefs.
Just want to know the opinions of people about that.

I think it is just that now we have options.

You got venues, gigs, distributors and publishers where you may minimize certain offenses.
If you are looking for that type of stuff that the category above wants to avoid, you still have the other places, labels, distributors and so on.

If you want to just do whatever, with whoever, I don't see much obstacles in that either. I belong to this last category and I rarely encounter any problems anywhere. And if such ones emerge, its fine, since I am not after the safe space. I think "noise" is not one space, nor community. You can't regulate it, as there aren't really means to regulate things. Generally when such situation is valued, it might give indication of healthy "scene".

I recall please do not let that happen! There is enough labels and artist whos output you can "trust". Music genres one after one turns acceptability and soft. Anyone could express way of his/her/etc. feels like without some squall. On the other hand...does it moves a dust if some alias hurts feelings on a forum? If you want to make your rules in the playground you are playing alone pretty soon.

More than half the people I know in noise are not cis white males. I hope they feel safe and accepted at shows and in the scene. I hope they also don't have to deal with "edgy shit" at shows or anywhere else.

Whenever I'm doing a home reno my motto is "safety first" and frankly what's wrong with being safe at a show or a forum as well? Imagine shooting a nail gun through your foot?

Personally I'm old and I hope people accept me leaving shows at 9:30 because I want to get a good nights sleep.

What exactly does this mean? This is very vague.

Has it ever not been a safe space? Further, Isn't that was Kate aka NoiseWidow was saying on the WCN podcast, that noise is a bunch of scared people acting tough in a controlled environment full of supportive people? While by contrast a public library in the inner city USA is less of a safe space?

Do you mean in the digital realm? Hench the recent rant in the smell and quim topic of someones outrage over a shirt that isn't even really remotely shocking within the context of the artwork at large from a lot of the UK projects of that same era. Which is still a resounding no, sure releases get "banned" (for a swastika in Germany or a much less serious discogs ban) or outsiders try to limit what is and isn't acceptable, though those releases sell all the same through their own channels.

Maybe you haven't been to any shows, or have an exaggerated perception of what going to a show is like. I've found that local scenes can be quite cliquey, it can be hard (especially if you were shy) to get to know people. But if you talk to people and your also serious about your interest they'll probably be largely accepting, while if your being flippant, dickish or overly political/offensive (doesn't matter your ideological position) you probably won't make friends and possibly might be asked to leave.

You gotta consider that noise has always been very individualistic, local (even in its most global communities) and generally of low interest to the general public or even listening public. I think people who are genuinely interested in forming bonds with other people interested in extreme sound accept that ultimately nothing really matters and do their best to get along or avoid.

Though a secondary idea came up while responding to this post. I've been thinking about how much this forum has changed and not changed in the past 12 years, both in quality of what's being talked about, the users and perceptions of the scene at large. Obviously, things ebb and flow (largely an upswing at the moment). A lot of communication has turned over to things like Instagram and social media has gained much more prevalence among all people.

But there seems to be an increase of people seeking to put their identity or perceptions of their identity in relation to what they create (or don't create, maybe it's like an online persona) out there more than any other time I can remember. I don't mean that in an identity politics way either, what I notice is an increase of "reactionary" identity. People attempting to appear a certain way politically/morally (both right and left) in a way that's very obvious, out front and exceptionally boring. A lot of the humor seems to be gone, it strikes me as superficial or as folks temporarily larping.

I suppose it could have something to do with how subdivided things are in a genre sense, but I suspect it's really related to peoples relationship to extremity and access. What made the supposed golden era of noise so free (in the sense you could have Con-Dom collaborating with a group like Control Resistance and Militia) was a broader focus on freedom of speech and communication. Where now things are much more black and white, people feel the need to pick a side of the line and stay put or risk some sort of cancellation. Look no further than Filthy Turd and the problems he experienced in employment over something as stupid as a CD-R. People used to just mind their own business, you wouldn't find someone bemoaning a pedophile on a t-shirt, they would simply move on from it without a word.

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on October 30, 2022, 08:20:48 AM
What exactly does this mean? This is very vague.

I feel like when this sort of topic is brought up it's inevitably some variation of "I'm upset I (or someone) can't do whatever I want without repercussions" which means they might need to seek out a "safe space" of their own.... A safe space Ouroboros by if you will....

Maybe a safe space as in artists have usually been free to do whatever they want in regards to sounds/artwork/lyrics/subject matter.

But we now live in the age where its fashionable to be Mary Whitehouse.

One mans safe is another mans unsafe.

Usually when people say "safe space" they mean "safe space for people i don't like"
Noise is a genre of music, including the social structures that come along with it. This is not something new.

Like formerly mention, for me it just looks like there are options now, and perhaps correct words would be how much of unpleasant things one can tolerate. Only couple of times I have witnessed noise gig (or situation) what borders things being (physically) unsafe. Generally it is more about how much time you want to spend in crowd, discussion or something that is unpleasant. Many times it is situation, where one dislikes amount of naggers, and tend to think I got these other great noise people over there, I'll spend time with them, and not the naggers. That's nothing to do with safety. I tend to think, when issue of safety is brought to table, it tends to follow with plenty of unpleasant nagging. While could just lets it be, and focus on things such as Great noise, for example.

Quote from: Leewar on October 30, 2022, 07:17:51 PM
One mans safe is another mans unsafe.

Wait. I thought one mans safe is another mans kaching.

Apologies. Now back to your regularly scheduled safe space.

Of course  I don't want to people feel unwelcome to live shows. And I totally judge any misbehavior towards audience etc.. But please let artist do they thing.

Maybe I am mis understanding... but I liked the fact that back in the late nineties/ early noughties you could go to a noise show and be exposed to completely different styles and content. I might have complained at the time about hipster wolf  eyes noise fans who equally complained about power electronics but at the same time there was exposure. If noise becomes fragmented into safe and non safe spaces then it becomes like everything else - echo Chambers for what you like and avoidance of what you don't like.

Quote from: Kayandah on November 01, 2022, 10:06:01 AM
If noise becomes fragmented into safe and non safe spaces then it becomes like everything else - echo Chambers for what you like and avoidance of what you don't like.

sounds like an argument for politics, not music

Quote from: Leewar on October 30, 2022, 07:17:51 PM
But we now live in the age where its fashionable to be Mary Whitehouse.

NOW we live in that age? Not when the actual Mary Whitehouse was alive?

Quote from: Kayandah on November 01, 2022, 10:06:01 AMIf noise becomes fragmented into safe and non safe spaces then it becomes like everything else - echo Chambers for what you like and avoidance of what you don't like.

It already is like that. Arguably always has been, or at least for a very long time.

But don't worry about it. Noise isn't like everything else. In fact, nothing is like everything else.

Quote from: chryptusrecords on November 01, 2022, 07:16:15 PM

Quote from: Leewar on October 30, 2022, 07:17:51 PM
But we now live in the age where its fashionable to be Mary Whitehouse.

NOW we live in that age? Not when the actual Mary Whitehouse was alive?

In the days when she was alive most people mocked or just ignored her ideas of censorship.

Now we have teenagers, who instead of seeking out extremities, start out by telling others what they should or shouldnt be listening to incase its 'questionable'.

Quote from: Leewar on November 02, 2022, 12:20:24 PM

Quote from: chryptusrecords on November 01, 2022, 07:16:15 PM

Quote from: Leewar on October 30, 2022, 07:17:51 PM
But we now live in the age where its fashionable to be Mary Whitehouse.

NOW we live in that age? Not when the actual Mary Whitehouse was alive?

In the days when she was alive most people mocked or just ignored her ideas of censorship.

Now we have teenagers, who instead of seeking out extremities, start out by telling others what they should or shouldnt be listening to incase its 'questionable'.

I'm sorry but this is absolute bollocks.

Mary Whitehouse and the National Viewers and Listeners Association wielded real political power which meant that many things were extremely difficult to get hold of in the 70s and 80s in the UK that were readily available in more progressive European countries.

What happens now is that people have access to vast swathes of culture at the click of a button.

But, you know, sorry if a young person took a dislike to some Nazi noise project and posted about it on Tumblr or whatever!

What is a non-safe space?

Quote from: W.K. on November 02, 2022, 10:48:05 PM
What is a non-safe space?

It feels as if this topic already years ago went in so many circles, it became obsolete? I think the media is still dragging behind and giving it some sort of momentum as if topic mattered in places and cultures where it does not matter.

It seems as if current consensus was that it is problematic that bunch of white people are explaining and getting angry behalf of "minorities". Telling what hurts and offends, while those mentioned people, lets say in this case for example women in noise, may be annoyed that they are treated as infants, by default, instead of as grown up women who actually do manage to deal with so called non-safe space, that is life.

Quote from: eraciator on November 02, 2022, 08:36:23 PM

Quote from: Leewar on November 02, 2022, 12:20:24 PM

Quote from: chryptusrecords on November 01, 2022, 07:16:15 PM

Quote from: Leewar on October 30, 2022, 07:17:51 PM
But we now live in the age where its fashionable to be Mary Whitehouse.

NOW we live in that age? Not when the actual Mary Whitehouse was alive?

In the days when she was alive most people mocked or just ignored her ideas of censorship.

Now we have teenagers, who instead of seeking out extremities, start out by telling others what they should or shouldnt be listening to incase its 'questionable'.

I'm sorry but this is absolute bollocks.

Mary Whitehouse and the National Viewers and Listeners Association wielded real political power which meant that many things were extremely difficult to get hold of in the 70s and 80s in the UK that were readily available in more progressive European countries.

What happens now is that people have access to vast swathes of culture at the click of a button.

But, you know, sorry if a young person took a dislike to some Nazi noise project and posted about it on Tumblr or whatever!

I wouldnt agree, some 'things' where still easy to get if you looked in the right places, for instance certain kinds of porn could quite easily be obtained from small ads in the back of 'regular' porn magazines sold in the high street. She achieved nothing really except amusing people by complaining about programmes that continued to be shown on TV, a few of which deliberately baited her even more.

You could still walk into a record shop and buy pretty much anything, or go and see your favourite 'nazi' band in concert.


But thanks for proving my point somewhat with your last line.

Perhaps the idea that there is a space, that is safe, for noise, starts with the recognition that there really is a space, for noise. A space with clear definition, lines, contours. With an inside and an outside. If such a space can have a generally agreed definition, then it can also be "protected" by those who may feel obliged to do the protecting. This can have all kinds of knock-on effects, political and otherwise. But objectively speaking, noise never gave a shit.

Quote from: eraciator on November 02, 2022, 08:36:23 PM
But, you know, sorry if a young person took a dislike to some Nazi noise project and posted about it on Tumblr or whatever!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture

don't see any Nazi Noise here

Seems like we're now venturing into territory that explains why Scream & Writhe Forum is good and active.  Is there really a need for another forum?  Appears so.  Sounds a little dramatic to be bothered that people seek vibes...uh...that they like.

Yes, and this is absolutely nothing new. I must have mentioned several times, but already back in the day with Chondritic/Troniks forum, when it originally was all just one discussion, there had to be division made for NOISE and POWER ELECTRONICS, so people can choose if they do not want to see things that are common in realms of PE. When all discussions were in one section, you could basically count on that any time there was discussions about artists with little more spicy content, lots of people were always trolling with all sorts of nonsense.
When PE and Noise was in separate sections, it became vastly better for... everybody, I guess? This was already like 15 years ago or more.
While Special Interests favors the 80's/90's style of "everything goes", where all things co-exists, it is clear that such mentality is quite old school these days. If the 2000's sub-genre and community ideals works for some, its good that there are places for that type of people. To me it seems clear that vast majority of noise/PE folks are not at forums, and there is pretty decent discussions even at some social media groups. Noise Playing Now (fb) being one example. If you are using mostly your phone, forums like SI are pretty heavy to use and not enough visual.

One would hope S&W forum keeps going and improving. It is hard to say, since anyone who has followed the lifespan of music forums, there is that certain way it goes. Starting from scratch, you can always start new Hijokaidan or new gear topic, but after some years, when you got forum with multiple page topic of artists, it is harder for new guys who join forum to bring something valuable what hasn't already been said. After 10 pages of Merzbow talk, it ain't that good to post "recommend me some good Merzbow-noise!!" message what you can do in early stages of forum/topic. Already with S&W we could see that lots of people joined, and then... not posting at all. To create lively forum, what it really needs is posters, and also people who know things beyond the obvious, so there are some nuggets of info or insight why lurkers wants to return.

Quote from: Leewar on November 03, 2022, 11:59:53 PM
I wouldnt agree, some 'things' where still easy to get if you looked in the right places, for instance certain kinds of porn could quite easily be obtained from small ads in the back of 'regular' porn magazines sold in the high street. She achieved nothing really except amusing people by complaining about programmes that continued to be shown on TV, a few of which deliberately baited her even more.

You could still walk into a record shop and buy pretty much anything, or go and see your favourite 'nazi' band in concert.

But thanks for proving my point somewhat with your last line.

Well maybe you were luckier, richer or better connected than me in the 1980s or we have different tastes, I dunno. I guess posh people have always been able to fulfil their desires with impunity and without the Obscene Publications Squad pigs taking an interest in them.

I do struggle with the idea that it's somehow harder to get hold of extreme stuff now though.  And I am mystified as to how teenagers on tumblr these days have more power than an organised political force with the backing of the churches in the pre-internet age.

Quote from: Goat93 on November 04, 2022, 05:28:40 PM

Quote from: eraciator on November 02, 2022, 08:36:23 PM
But, you know, sorry if a young person took a dislike to some Nazi noise project and posted about it on Tumblr or whatever!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture

don't see any Nazi Noise here

Quite.

It should be pretty obvious that the poster meant "safe space" as in: "works within the framework of modern day morals and 'political correctness' " and NOT as in: "I may get attacked at a concert"...

Personally, I draw the line when it comes to mainstream modern day buzzwords, witch hunts and thought bans. Despite not being active as long as many others in the "scene" (?), I always liked the idea that pretty much anyone could express his or her thoughts. Let's take Barzel, Herukrat, Koufar and Brethren - I agree with none of the ideologies behind the projects, but I am glad they all exist. Fringe people expressing fringe opinions freely - that's what I saw as underground culture.

However, I mostly see people becoming safer and safer due to the very touchy current day climate and an audience that seems to live pretty strictly to the laws of the political correctness of the Western hemisphere of post- 2020. That has nothing to do with anarchic outsider art whatsoever and neither do the same tiring buzzwords and "hypes" that are proclaimed in any school, university and mass media outlet. That is not only something I personally disagree with, but also something that goes strictly against my own motivation of becoming a consumer of such art. It used to be about counter culture to me, nowadays I see mainstream culture more than anything else. It used to be about strong individuals and ideas, now it's about "don't say the wrong thing, for god's sake". That may be all in my head, though.

Of course, I have no ill will to anyone doing his thing, I just personally lose interest in such work, which just leads me to stop buying it. That's the alpha and omega of the discussion regarding my personal habits, really.

Not the same demographic being attracted to noise?  The number of people now interested, so you're bound to see different backgrounds and reasons to be interested?  When noise became the new punk rock, ala No Fun Fests and more touring, that felt like a pivot point.  No judgment or slight.  From afar, it felt like a new era.

Quote from: Zeno Marx on November 07, 2022, 06:35:54 PM
Not the same demographic being attracted to noise?  The number of people now interested, so you're bound to see different backgrounds and reasons to be interested?

It does admittedly feel as though we've been circling around the same subject, in various concurrent and dormant threads, here and elsewhere, and of course circlings of the sort would hardly be exclusive to noise.

But if noise can be an "empty space into which all musics bleed", as someone once put it, then there will probably be perceptions of it getting  bloodied one way or other, regardless of how definitions are to emerge in the social sphere (which I guess is the only place definitions will emerge). This latest thread does at least make more explicit the desire for noise to be or mean something a little more specific. And I've got no problem with that, just as I've got no problem with Jojo Hiroshige being the king of noise.

Quote from: W.K. on November 02, 2022, 10:48:05 PMWhat is a non-safe space?

I'm puzzled by that sentence too, as it's very vague. I'd imagine the word "safe space" has some weird political connotation and argument to go with it, as if the space is ment for everybody and everybody's feelings to be considered. Those special groups whom are supposedly being threatened by "nazis or white supremacists" are the embodiment of the word safe space and are often using that language that eventually becomes synonymous with that type of conflict I've noticed. My opinion of the "safe space" if you will is that it has no true meaning and no real tangible violence, nothing substantial has ever been committed in any space, other then maybe some bonehead who had a few drunken words and perhaps that instance is marginal at best! Also would like to know why anyone and I often like to criticize the black metal peoples for this too, but why on earth would you think there is a "safe place" for music that often rooted in evil, violence, dissentfulness, or down right for the sake to be abhorrently nasty. Isn't that a hallmark or a staple of the genre in most respects? Black metal fundamentally and this obviously can be debated of course, but my personal belief is that "misanthropy" is a prime value of the genre aesthetically and realistically, so should it be to any surprise if there are values that counter that subtext that should shock or surprise anyone...my answer to those who seek a safe space, should seek safer music, it's that simple and I'd imagine that PE/Noise genre would be even more far removed from this sentiment of a safe space. I'd imagine a "safe space" is not even up for debates, as it clearly and fundamentally should NOT even exist, not to mention in what's a predominately white music genre.

The issue to me is not so much THAT THERE IS some degree of boundaries regarding what is acceptable but who ultimately decides said boundaries. Because it certainly often isn't individuals who have a genuine love for the genre.

I'd like to imagine that, given how fundamentally experimental the genre is, people who genuinely love the genre are not so dissuaded by political aesthetics and explorations of ideas. This is largely true in my experience: a quick glance at someone's tape collection sometimes reveals the juxtaposition of a Work:Death tape, next to Anthony Braxton LP, next to a Bizarre Uproar 7".

The problem, to me, comes down the precarious nature of booking shows.

My apologies if I am retreading old ground, but, to me, someone still newer to booking shows, the problem is not so much a matter of content but venue. Navigating the intricacies of booking in a place like NYC is enough to make someone want to kill themself even before adding questionable subject matter to the mix. Sure, you can find music easier than ever now and even discuss it online, but, to me, discussion of noise community is inseparable from the live performance.

It is a simple relationship:

In major cities, ordinances and uptight neighbors make the possibility of apartment/basement shows a near impossibility (alongside the fact that rent in these neighborhoods is increasing to the point where even the original hipsters who priced people out of their homes can't keep up). In that sense, the democratic possibility of setting up a show "on your own" is much more unlikely.

Which leaves the only other option of appealing to local bars and venues. This is where whatever truth to the idea of "cancel culture" exists comes to the forefront. These are BUSINESSES first and foremost which means that their bottom line trumps all other considerations. They are also beholden to their own image and association. This allows for the otherwise unimportant and spineless to call and harass venues in order to cancel events whenever they feel so inclined.

Recent memory has given me examples of artists whose shows were upended because of subjects or acts they COVERED. I know of the attempts at a noise "cover" show (comprised of mostly gay and queer noise artists no less) at The Broadway in New York, wherein the entire event was canceled upon one of the bookers being informed that someone was set to cover Prurient. In the midst of our argument with the booker, Johnny Cash of Sunk Cost tried to use the opportunity to shame the booker for allowing Deterge to play there previously, trotting out the same complaints about projects Jim has put out while conveniently leaving out the edgy skeletons he has in his own closet.

As long as shows can be shut down with incessant whining and there is no considerable loss of revenue, it is not in the interests of venues to take risks on noise shows, cutty or otherwise. It is a labor of love what a lot of organizers do, and I would imagine that, having to navigate the annoyances of the continually offended, the result is not worth the hassle.

Thinking cynically, however, I think part of the reason why shows are dominated by boring ambient and granular eurorack noise is because it is a lot safer to plan a bill around said artists than a project like Koufar which could result in both the venue and organizer catching flak over the "Lebanon for Lebanese" album cover for the millionth time. And given waiting times on alternate venues and arranging transportation, a last minute cancellation could mean you and the artists are fucked.

The result is that for a genre like power electronics, quality shows are much rarer. And for someone like myself, who was convinced to try my hand at PE following an incredible show put on by the folks from Thousands of Dead Gods in the late 2010s, I can't help but reflect on how this affects the growth of community. People will always find experimental music, but participation and involvement relies upon a robust and diverse local scene fostered by easily available and accessible venues. One that won't crumble because a Latino kid wears a Goatmoon shirt.

I was, however, pleasantly surprised by the International Misanthropy show, so obviously it isn't a hard and fast rule.

I would be interested to hear from others who have been doing this for longer if this in any way reflects their experiences or is way off the mark.

Basically the "cancel culture" is weaponized attention economy. Selfproclaimed "activists" have just found an way to use new media tools as an easy deplatforming tool to oust "fascists" and collaborators out of spaces and venues, may they be either public or commercial in nature.

Commercial spaces, especially those who cater to alternative crowds, are nowadays very cautious about their image. Being associated with the nazis or some percieved reactionary tendencies is really bad for small business these days. Venues, bars and other physical spaces operate locally and their operations are dependant on local support and customers. And i think this is the key to understand this whole phenomenon: you really can't "cancel" big boys, multinational corporations and other actors that do not lean on some local support. It is peanuts compared to the global and national level where they usually operate. But some small independent rock venue or art venue is tied to its surroundings and customers, that are usually local people. It is easier to threaten these small businesses because their existence is dependant on customers. If you can frame some dive bar as suspicious or being your local hotbed of Blood & Honour activities, you can really disrupt their business and activities. It is easier for venue to pull the plug on some obscure noise show than get labeled as nazi joint in social media. That stigma will stick and it will be used against the venue later on, even if the venue performs public repentance rituals.

Quote from: Commander15 on December 05, 2023, 11:20:04 AMVenues, bars and other physical spaces are operate locally and their business is dependant on local support and customers.

So, shouldnt customers already know what the truth is, if their everyday bar is a nazi place or not ? And shouldnt the owner trust his regular customers' 'loyalty' ? I think they both do.

At the end, maybe is all about Can you bring in enough money to make it worth the 'trouble' ? If it is me -the bar- to collect just a little more than usual , well, spare me.

Quote from: Theodore on December 05, 2023, 11:59:13 AM

Quote from: Commander15 on December 05, 2023, 11:20:04 AMVenues, bars and other physical spaces are operate locally and their business is dependant on local support and customers.

So, shouldnt customers already know what the truth is, if their everyday bar is a nazi place or not ? And shouldnt the owner trust his regular customers' 'loyalty' ? I think they both do.

At the end, maybe is all about Can you bring in enough money to make it worth the 'trouble' ? If it is me -the bar- to collect just a little more than usual , well, spare me.

Yeah i guess you would think so, but still some spaces / bars have done this. Maybe it is the money issue, but i don't know... It also happens with metal bands and metal will certainly draw more money in than noise / PE. I'll stick to my attention economy / image loss theory.

Like cancellations that are based on some sort of "dubious connections", releases on certain labels etc. They are not criminal offenses in any way but they are been framed as moral and ethical offenses that will taint the venue also if not taken care off by cancelling the show.

Economy / image loss theory. We still talk about money. To care about your image cause you think you will loose money, the little you make. So, get more money from me and fuck your image. Deal ? Sure !

If it is about image only. Then OK, fair, slowly close down your place, keep your image and die starving.

Sad is these owners of small places fear an empty threat, 'cancellation' . By people who never put a foot in their bar, neither knew its existence, nor they will remember they 'cancelled' it in a couple of months. Everyday-life ordinary people who keep small businness / small scale economy alive by spending their money dont give a fuck about cancel culture.

If we talk about venues that host and live by other music scenes ie anarcho-punk. OK, i get their fear and their decision.

There's really no such thing as a safe space, the correct term would be safer space, meaning a space where behaviour that invades personal space or elements that could trigger minorities, victims of abuse etc. are not welcome. Noise can't be a safe(r) space since the term only applied to actual physical space. I don't really see anything wrong with mainstream music venues adhering to safer space princibles, and noise gigs can be held in private spaces where such princibles don't matter.

I don't want safety in noise. To me with this genre, safety = control.

Most of the times when I see people bitch about "safe space" it boils down to being a coward about the repercussions of something (something inconveniences your extreme hatred for something/someone, how rude). That's naive/dumb to me, we live in an era where everyone can voice their opinions without any effort = it works both ways/sides too. It's very easy to be edgy or a moralist in the internet, y'know?

You can do anything and you can sell anything on the internet, you may have to use alternative means and bitching about some big plataform not accepting your nazi project is pretty naive/dumb, get some grasp on reality, that has nothing to do with censoring and everything to do with money. That noise act you worship was not selling his stuff on Wallmart or something, y'know?

In the end I think there's a lot of bitching and being naive/dumb since probably right now there are WAY more active artists and labels dealing with extreme topics than in any moment in history... What more edgy people want? I guess a safe space. And that's extra funny because most of these people live in safe spaces themselves, but that's just me bitching because I don't live in a snowy rich land.

Quote from: EXU on December 05, 2023, 06:58:24 PMMost of the times when I see people bitch about "safe space" it boils down to being a coward about the repercussions of something (something inconveniences your extreme hatred for something/someone, how rude). That's naive/dumb to me, we live in an era where everyone can voice their opinions without any effort = it works both ways/sides too. It's very easy to be edgy or a moralist in the internet, y'know?
...
In the end I think there's a lot of bitching and being naive/dumb since probably right now there are WAY more active artists and labels dealing with extreme topics than in any moment in history... What more edgy people want? I guess a safe space. And that's extra funny because most of these people live in safe spaces themselves, but that's just me bitching because I don't live in a snowy rich land.

I wholeheartedly agree, but I want to clarify a distinction. People outlining their "safer space" principles, as silly as they are [seriously, all you need to do is spend some time around tenderqueer crust punks to realize how many of their safe spaces are riddled with rapists and abusers] is not the problem. The problem is one of an eroding middle ground.

Nuance is dangerous and I think it is perhaps more dangerous to those with clear ideological stances on either side. The artists to which I am referring to aren't throwing up the Bellamy salute and performing straight up WP noise. They're tackling their own interests/feelings on emotionally and historically charged subjects with varying degrees of success: sure, they may miss the mark completely, but it's generally a far cry from the "calls to violence" which often get brought up. But when relative outsiders can dismiss entire acts as such, it plays into a broader stifling of diversity in the art form. Even more so when one factors in that even collaborating with these artists can bring up a cloud of uncertainty years down the road.

It is unfair to pin the blame of "safe spaces" entirely on the bogeyman of the "Left." I'd go as far as to say the invite-only PEAC shows are a prime-example of individuals too cowardly to speak their mind in a public forum seeking a safe space where their ideas won't be confronted.

The biggest crime, however, is that it just encourages fucking boring noise. The "all-or-nothing" approach to ideological stances adopted by this newer generation of self-professed Leftists can mean navigating a series of show trials when trying to get touring artists to play. It limits the variety of voices and approaches to confronting art and altogether stunts artists by making them capable of shutting out any form of uncomfortable thought. Alternatively, the enclaves of right-wing noise makers foster a degenerating (heh) ability to perform critique and reflect on their art when they can avoid entirely the new generation of zoomers making shitty cybernoise or whatever.

The best comparison I think can be made is with black metal. There will always be a level of exclusion between these two approaches, just like how someone who is a die-hard Panopticon fan will GENERALLY never be caught at Steelfest. But just as left-wing black metal has suffered due to a fundamental inability to acknowledge the contributions of projects like Burzum *despite stealing his riffs*, many newer right-wing NS projects have suffered from a reliance on the same tired approaches to the genre and its aesthetics. For every Vothana, there are about a hundred projects in the current year recording dogshit Satanic Warmaster worship to a four-track and throwing a totenkopf on the cover.

I cannot fundamentally view the outcome of "safe spaces" as anything other than negative for all those involved. It is also just incredibly condescending. It is your responsibility to make sure your friends aren't going to get assaulted at a show due to their race--that is pretty obvious. But minorities and "the oppressed" also want to listen to good art. They're not delicate flowers which rely on white saviors with overactive social media profiles to come and save them. Shit, most of the biggest NSBM fans I know are black and brown people from all over.

But that finally emphasizes the most disgusting aspect of it: preemptively canceling shows on behalf of possible harm posed to audience (psychic or otherwise) forecloses on the ability of "the oppressed" to both engage and respond. I'm no art historian, but I feel confident in saying that some of the best discourse to emerge from the art world REQUIRED the engagement with objectionable content. If someone's ignorant woman-killing project is so offensive, you contribute less than nothing creatively in merely banning it from a scene. It may be ignorant and overdone, but it is still individual creative expression. Why not respond in kind? You're not going to get stomped out by the audience at a show in at Brooklyn bar. The most real form of violence is that you're told that it sucks.


[It is funny too because it is also so wholly dependent on the individual moral inclinations of those who try to enforce scene safety. As a general rule, extreme pornography and bondage/fetish material centered around degradation is a mainstay, but, as evidenced in the response to Rusty and Amelia's Breathing Problem set a while back, the boundary was crossed by consensual performance art. Or Death Squad's "Intent." It is funny that Michael's performance, like some Japanoise live-shows, posed more of a credible threat to the lives of the audience members and yet they're viewed historically with reverence.]

Quote from: host body on December 05, 2023, 03:15:56 PMThere's really no such thing as a safe space, the correct term would be safer space, meaning a space where behaviour that invades personal space or elements that could trigger minorities, victims of abuse etc. are not welcome. Noise can't be a safe(r) space since the term only applied to actual physical space. I don't really see anything wrong with mainstream music venues adhering to safer space princibles, and noise gigs can be held in private spaces where such princibles don't matter.

I must have a different view in my mind for "safe space" than others do. When I think of safe space, I think in my mind that it should fundamentally be a place that should welcome any and all opinions and should be void of any clear biases. Many of you have described it as such, but in my own view I think that term has sort of lost it's meaning, or perhaps the meaning has hopelessly morphed into something that just means, safe for whomever is a minority or whatever class is being supposedly oppressed at the moment and now needs mainstream ideals and your moral intervention on the matters, which would be an oxymoron when it comes to music forms that generally deal with often not very pleasant topics or imagery.

Quote from: EXU on December 05, 2023, 06:58:24 PMMost of the times when I see people bitch about "safe space" it boils down to being a coward about the repercussions of something (something inconveniences your extreme hatred for something/someone, how rude).

I do see this happening too, and I do think that "edgy" stuff that can't handle the repercussion is a bit lame. However, I would suppose it would be far more relevant discussion who are the actually targeted people or projects, what is being done, how and what are consequences?

At least in Finland, polemic that is happening usually comes from non-noise people, or new folks who barely follow genre or oldies who have semi-dropped out long ago. There may be some tension among insiders, but generally that is nothing beyond normal social relations. Usually, it is people with very limited and quickly passing interests who come to moralize and stir shit. Targets are generally not any of the artists or labels who are supposedly guilty, but the rest of people at discussions, organizers, venues or other bands who have not strongly enough condemned something. As example, it is possible that handful of antifascist or at least punk spirited noise artists play great sets at antifascist venue, but instead of cultivating great things in noise, result is still a mess that leads into venue not being suitable for ANY noise shows in future plus the artists are more cautious who to trust. Or discussions that sort of start or evolve into name calling, booting people out, deleting messages, giving guidelines what kind of records you can and can not mention... it doesn't need much of that, until the actual noise folks tend to conclude fuck this.. and we see inspiring noise dialog stop right there. Safe space is such a lame term to be used within that.

Repercussions of something is curious topic, as it appears that the exact people who intentionally seeks to destroy for example local scenes and cause trouble to everybody, are usually the ones who appear to pretend as if they are not doing so.
Like some folks mention above, safe space is relevant for handful of scenarios in real life. You can take it to level of hardcore show where girls can go at front of stage without some meathead stomping her into ground. Almost everybody gets that in underground.

When talking about noise culture, we should rather talk about creative space. I'd like to think all things I do, is generally aimed for creating and promoting creative space. Not just for me, but pretty much to anyone, regardless of what they are.  This includes things one may not be personally fan of, nor needs to be fan or even like. Just idea that noise was born out of this burning desire of creation, ability to create, not only imitate. Involving the imagination or original ideas. I know some will ask so what's original and new about swastika and corpse on the cover, or what's original about shaker and distortion. That can be replied: what is original in dismissing that type of art without even glance towards it? I would rather advocate that resurrection of creative spirit and creative space. That meaning, it is not supposed to be fresh entertainment for ones desires. If one want that, I guess for example spotify AI knows what one likes and wants and can spoon feed more of that. Others can still expose themselves to other peoples thinking and ideas and not insist everything is done according their own specific taste and moral. Within that, probably could happen more creative things and not demands of uniformity.

Two years ago there was some polemic in Finnish Experimental Underground Facebook group regarding FA releases. The conclusion was you cannot promote fascist label and the moderator started removing the posts. I think it was a classic case: the guy who moderates it, doesn't even put out any physical releases himself, because he probably knows as well that NO ONE wants to pay for his goofy sound wankery. He was (is) mostly living in Internet, surrounded by online feminists and seeing his Facebook posts, very insecure what he can say without offending his "social circles". For me this was an epitome of the whole online cancel culture phenomena and what kind of persons are behind it.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 06, 2023, 10:20:51 AMI do see this happening too, and I do think that "edgy" stuff that can't handle the repercussion is a bit lame. However, I would suppose it would be far more relevant discussion who are the actually targeted people or projects, what is being done, how and what are consequences?

this has always been my position on the topic. you provoke - somebody may get a stiffy and enjoy, but most will get pissed off and try to silence you. As simple as that. There is no "freedom of speech" or "right to express as you wish" working. Some topics are taboos or edgy, sometimes the artists are simply dumb and do stupid stuff to feel cool in a tasteless and useless way. Either way the only thing i don't condone is direct attack on personal / family level, everything else is permitted even when I find it revolting or annoying. If done properly and with sincerity and intensity it works for me.
industrial/pe has been a safe space for many people of different ideas and attitudes until morons started being assholes at differente levels like antifas boycotting this or that project via internet or storming venues (or at least attempting to...) or "hillinois nazis" type going at gigs getting completely wasted sieg heiling and  harassing goth girls and attacking scenesters at random (most of these were neither actual right wing militants nor scenesters).  The second is a phenomenon that happened in the 90s, not too often, but it did a few times enough to raise attention and giving the bad name and was new for an environment that was not at all aggressive.
BTW I see today is all about woke, keyboard warrios and incels at war with their insecurities.

Going back to Mikko statement. I don't care anymore about provoking reactions, I often did it on purpose, what I state now in my work is technically how I observe the world, but there are concepts like andromasochism, that could be seen as edgy considering the latest things happening in Italy with the rise of women killed and consequent self-guilt of many men being ashamed of being what they were born. It's a very interesting time. We are having Dworking like influencers being bossy on social media and hordes of men crying an feeling victims as well of patriarchy.

Quote from: Manhog_84 on December 06, 2023, 10:54:01 AMTwo years ago there was some polemic in Finnish Experimental Underground Facebook group regarding FA releases. The conclusion was you cannot promote fascist label and the moderator started removing the posts. I think it was a classic case: the guy who moderates it, doesn't even put out any physical releases himself, because he probably knows as well that NO ONE wants to pay for his goofy sound wankery. He was (is) mostly living in Internet, surrounded by online feminists and seeing his Facebook posts, very insecure what he can say without offending his "social circles". For me this was an epitome of the whole online cancel culture phenomena and what kind of persons are behind it.

This whole cancel culture feels like the latest new thing for people who'd like to be militant in their activism, but from a keyboard or a safe distance. It's just the latest "thing" and like you say they feed off this garbage with their friends. In all reality I don't think any artists who have been censored care either.
I think there is this misconception out there that the ones who's shows have been cancelled or albums banned for sale have this ohhh no, poor me attitude and it's like now what ever shall I do?! I don't think that's the case for most. I think most have said fuck it and moved on and kind of expect that now considering where the world has gone. I never understand those other people though who get banned from social media and whine about it, why they were ever on social media in the first place? I think when an artist releases something controversial that they fully well know has the potential to create an uproar whether it's tasteless or for the matters of ambiguity, that it should almost be expected for hassel in the so called "normal" world and this notion you'd be free from any hassles... you should almost expect them. I'd think that should go with out say in most cases, but it's be becoming more complicated all the time, because everything seems to be somehow offensive now.

Quote from: Cranial Blast on December 06, 2023, 03:44:25 PM

Quote from: Manhog_84 on December 06, 2023, 10:54:01 AMTwo years ago there was some polemic in Finnish Experimental Underground Facebook group regarding FA releases. The conclusion was you cannot promote fascist label and the moderator started removing the posts. I think it was a classic case: the guy who moderates it, doesn't even put out any physical releases himself, because he probably knows as well that NO ONE wants to pay for his goofy sound wankery. He was (is) mostly living in Internet, surrounded by online feminists and seeing his Facebook posts, very insecure what he can say without offending his "social circles". For me this was an epitome of the whole online cancel culture phenomena and what kind of persons are behind it.

This whole cancel culture feels like the latest new thing for people who'd like to be militant in their activism, but from a keyboard or a safe distance. It's just the latest "thing" and like you say they feed off this garbage with their friends. In all reality I don't think any artists who have been censored care either.
I think there is this misconception out there that the ones who's shows have been cancelled or albums banned for sale have this ohhh no, poor me attitude and it's like now what ever shall I do?! I don't think that's the case for most. I think most have said fuck it and moved on and kind of expect that now considering where the world has gone. I never understand those other people though who get banned from social media and whine about it, why they were ever on social media in the first place? I think when an artist releases something controversial that they fully well know has the potential to create an uproar whether it's tasteless or for the matters of ambiguity, that it should almost be expected for hassel in the so called "normal" world and this notion you'd be free from any hassles... you should almost expect them. I'd think that should go with out say in most cases, but it's be becoming more complicated all the time, because everything seems to be somehow offensive now.

agreed

i love being triggered, I am sad wokes can't feel the same excitement of feeling pure hatred for somethini I dislike that I'm almost addicted to that. A perfect world would turn all of us suicidal or heroin adicts

It really is a shame that expressing your thoughts or "living your truth" by expressing your likes or dislikes is under a new social justice form of censorship. People getting cancelled for what they say or what they said 20 years ago coming back to bite them in the ass by losing their jobs or worse is just a fucking joke.

Quote from: Confuzzled on December 06, 2023, 05:20:53 PMIt really is a shame that expressing your thoughts or "living your truth" by expressing your likes or dislikes is under a new social justice form of censorship. People getting cancelled for what they say or what they said 20 years ago coming back to bite them in the ass by losing their jobs or worse is just a fucking joke.

When it comes to losing a job or being blacklisted is total bullshit indeed, but unfortunately that seems to be the direction we are heading in for at the moment. That will definitely change though depending how long we want cancel culture to stick around and keep pushing us around, because at some point cancel culture is going to implode within, just look at all of these giant retailers who got on board with BLM and all these woke ideals immediately after Floyd, some of these retailers are going down with the ship despite their massive losses of money and some are quietly trying to expunge the fact they ever said or donated to these type of causes in the first place. It's funny in Minneapolis there was this little mini Target store near the university area and this company Target stores inc. being the biggest supporter of wokeism, ironically has closed this location due to high theft, haha...they pretty much got behind as a company and supported these snap emotions of people who felt justified in mass looting and now ironically are removing these much needed resources in the area all together. I think this whole cancel culture is coming to a head...I have visions that 10 years from now that cancel culture will be awkwardly be remembered and those who supported the cause will go through great lengths to hide or bury that embarrassing fact.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 06, 2023, 10:20:51 AM

Quote from: EXU on December 05, 2023, 06:58:24 PMMost of the times when I see people bitch about "safe space" it boils down to being a coward about the repercussions of something (something inconveniences your extreme hatred for something/someone, how rude).

Repercussions of something is curious topic, as it appears that the exact people who intentionally seeks to destroy for example local scenes and cause trouble to everybody, are usually the ones who appear to pretend as if they are not doing so.

The "repercussions"/"freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences"-line more often than not seems to boil down to a hypocritical (typically leftist) justification for turning to state power or a higher authority than themselves to punish someone for doing something that offended them but couched in a smug, falsely detached/pseudo-intellectual sentiment. Anyone who believes that some kid should be doxxed and potentially have lifelong consequences for putting out some half-assed PEAC tape should be equally fine with a bunch of skinheads going down to some "noise against fascism" show or the likes and jumping people. Doesn't usually seem the case in my experience.

Quote from: ritualabuser on December 06, 2023, 09:13:06 PM

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 06, 2023, 10:20:51 AM

Quote from: EXU on December 05, 2023, 06:58:24 PMMost of the times when I see people bitch about "safe space" it boils down to being a coward about the repercussions of something (something inconveniences your extreme hatred for something/someone, how rude).

Repercussions of something is curious topic, as it appears that the exact people who intentionally seeks to destroy for example local scenes and cause trouble to everybody, are usually the ones who appear to pretend as if they are not doing so.

The "repercussions"/"freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences"-line more often than not seems to boil down to a hypocritical (typically leftist) justification for turning to state power or a higher authority than themselves to punish someone for doing something that offended them but couched in a smug, falsely detached/pseudo-intellectual sentiment. Anyone who believes that some kid should be doxxed and potentially have lifelong consequences for putting out some half-assed PEAC tape should be equally fine with a bunch of skinheads going down to some "noise against fascism" show or the likes and jumping people. Doesn't usually seem the case in my experience.

That's just it though, they are not okay with that sort of psychical retribution being aimed against "them" in return for their doxing and what not. Those types of people just want to throw rocks at a lion in a cage, but then squeal "hate crime" when it's against them and like you say they look for the backing of higher authorities to intervene, so that when violence should it in fact happen they make sure they get justice from local authorities and with the help of the media, so that the next guy who wants to act out in the same manor, sees what happens as a consequence and obviously doesn't want anything to do with those levels of consequences and how can you hardly blame them? 100% of this cancel culture to me is just rooted in anti-white sentiment and the reason why is because they want this illusion of "equality" where everybody is equal! Total utopia!...Unless your straight white male...then you're a hindrance in the way of their progress. None of this is concoindence either! Look at how the west wants to educate children from grade school to college, if you can scare and mentally beat adolescents to believe in some woke bullshit, years later there will be no resistance! Communism is very patient!

Quote from: ritualabuser on December 06, 2023, 09:13:06 PMThe "repercussions"/"freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences"-line more often than not seems to boil down to a hypocritical (typically leftist) justification for turning to state power or a higher authority than themselves to punish someone for doing something that offended them but couched in a smug, falsely detached/pseudo-intellectual sentiment.

I wouln't say "more often than not" but I agree. The basic internet "leftist" is a coward and a hypocrite of the highest order, totally immersed in the culture of virtuous cosplay or something like that. Being basically in a leftist bubble I do find myself hating much more the cancel culture and "everything is beautiful" keyboard warriors than a bloke making a sieg heil while drunk or goofing around.

Quote from: ritualabuser on December 06, 2023, 09:13:06 PMAnyone who believes that some kid should be doxxed and potentially have lifelong consequences for putting out some half-assed PEAC tape should be equally fine with a bunch of skinheads going down to some "noise against fascism" show or the likes and jumping people. Doesn't usually seem the case in my experience.

Everyone knows skinheads only target people alone, that's not really realist, but the cancel/doxx culture is a cancer and one that no one learns anything from, just virtue signalling most of the time.

But my big question is: Does the "problematic" artists see this all as the listeners of "problematic" see? Isn't all this just more of a kind of promotion than something truly annoying even? I usually see listeners and kids complaining, not the acts, but then the "naziest" forum I'm in is this one (hahaha, cheer up).

Quote from: EXU on December 09, 2023, 05:43:52 PM

Quote from: ritualabuser on December 06, 2023, 09:13:06 PMThe "repercussions"/"freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences"-line more often than not seems to boil down to a hypocritical (typically leftist) justification for turning to state power or a higher authority than themselves to punish someone for doing something that offended them but couched in a smug, falsely detached/pseudo-intellectual sentiment.

I wouln't say "more often than not" but I agree. The basic internet "leftist" is a coward and a hypocrite of the highest order, totally immersed in the culture of virtuous cosplay or something like that. Being basically in a leftist bubble I do find myself hating much more the cancel culture and "everything is beautiful" keyboard warriors than a bloke making a sieg heil while drunk or goofing around.

Quote from: ritualabuser on December 06, 2023, 09:13:06 PMAnyone who believes that some kid should be doxxed and potentially have lifelong consequences for putting out some half-assed PEAC tape should be equally fine with a bunch of skinheads going down to some "noise against fascism" show or the likes and jumping people. Doesn't usually seem the case in my experience.

Everyone knows skinheads only target people alone, that's not really realist, but the cancel/doxx culture is a cancer and one that no one learns anything from, just virtue signalling most of the time.

But my big question is: Does the "problematic" artists see this all as the listeners of "problematic" see? Isn't all this just more of a kind of promotion than something truly annoying even? I usually see listeners and kids complaining, not the acts, but then the "naziest" forum I'm in is this one (hahaha, cheer up).

I'd definitely agree on being "banned" from whatever socially-accepted media/streaming service should be seen as a job well done more than something to complain about. If you were attempting to reach a wider audience, which I could see being your only complaint if your stuff isn't allowed to be sold on disczogs, posted on YouTube, or streamed on Spotify, then you picked the wrong mode of expression to do so. In any case, I do believe that places like disczogs should have remained as they were prior to a few years back and that no release were banned, be it because it's a bootleg or because of it's content. Maybe the biggest thing I have a problem with in all of this is the "reverse bully"/nerd rage attitude where any bit of perceived "power" is abused in the extreme.

Regarding your comment on skins only going to beat people when they outnumber them, leftists/antifa are pretty notorious for that as well. I'd chalk it up to people that join these larger "label" movements being part of a group/herd mentality to begin with.

Quote from: ritualabuser on December 09, 2023, 06:34:04 PMRegarding your comment on skins only going to beat people when they outnumber them, leftists/antifa are pretty notorious for that as well. I'd chalk it up to people that join these larger "label" movements being part of a group/herd mentality to begin with.

Can't agree more.

Maybe we should frame this whole thing in the positive: (some) noise is becoming more extreme in relation to society.  It shows that it is a medium still capable of producing dramatic rupture.

Quote from: ritualabuser on December 09, 2023, 06:34:04 PMRegarding your comment on skins only going to beat people when they outnumber them, leftists/antifa are pretty notorious for that as well.

I wonder which kind of skins have you met in your life.

Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on December 09, 2023, 09:09:55 PMMaybe we should frame this whole thing in the positive: (some) noise is becoming more extreme in relation to society.  It shows that it is a medium still capable of producing dramatic rupture.

I like this. Good take. It leans into the question I have about whether other message boards exist...almost entirely...because of both the original question and your post. There's clearly a necessity and desire for the fracture, and why is that? This question is neither rhetorical or comes with subtext. I guess to answer it with any kind of utility, people who won't/don't like to post here would have to also answer.

Quote from: Zeno Marx on December 09, 2023, 09:36:03 PM

Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on December 09, 2023, 09:09:55 PMMaybe we should frame this whole thing in the positive: (some) noise is becoming more extreme in relation to society.  It shows that it is a medium still capable of producing dramatic rupture.

I like this. Good take. It leans into the question I have about whether other message boards exist...almost entirely...because of both the original question and your post. There's clearly a necessity and desire for the fracture, and why is that? This question is neither rhetorical or comes with subtext. I guess to answer it with any kind of utility, people who won't/don't like to post here would have to also answer.

Exactly.  And I don't think I can answer it other than by saying that instead of this becoming another culture war battlefield, it should be a call to just make great noise.