Maybe some kind of funny topic. I guess most of you know the situation, when you get to know the relatives and friends of your new girlfriend/boyfriend. Soon there will be talk about your favourite music. Then you mention...well...Noise.
Noise? What is this? (Then I play some obvious things like Merzbow for them)
Best reaction in recent times was, " Why should I voluntarily listen to something like this? I just want peace and quiet." Good answer, of course. A colleague at work recently said to me, that "thats my thing", when there was some Italian song on the radio. I said... What? What is this? And he said, this is Heavy Metal, isn't this what you like and listen to?
No, I like NOISE! Haha... "What is Noise?"
And when I mention that I buy tapes, then they are all lost..."It's some minor thing, hm?"
So how do you describe to your nearest and dearest ones, what music you prefer to listen?
I guess you all know what I'm talking about. Just tell me about your experiences!
(Don't take this topic too serious and delete if necessary), but at best it can also lead to some serious discussion about describing Noise to someone who never heard about it.
Well, in truth the chosen title of 'Noise Receptor' is a an actual homage to people who are not acquainted with the underground considering any experimental oriented sounds as 'noise'.
Personally I used to tell people that I listen to 'experimental sounds, but they probably wouldn't like or understand'. But in the end that felt too wanky and pretentious. So now I say I listen to 'weirdo sounds that most people wouldn't consider music at all'. Perhaps that comes off just as pretentious, but mostly the conversation ends there which is also fine by me.
Man I usually try to avoid talking about this shit to strangers at all costs. My wife likes to say I listen to static like from a TV. Some also think I just listen to ASMR. Or using the word Industrial has so many meanings to different people.
I usually say that i'm listening and playing experimental music or awful racket that no sane person would voluntarily listen.
When I was younger I liked to bring it up to try and shock people or genuinely thought I could impress them with my vast knowledge of "strange musical genres", which is embarrassing thinking back on it. Now I don't even bring it up anymore but I've exposed most of my close friends to it superficially, they are aware of what it is and that I enjoy it. Was a dinner last night and it came up in the conversation about shows and I mentioned wanting to travel to Japan for the NWN/Hospital fest and someone who was unfamiliar said, "Noise? What is that?"
These days I should say it's "abstract electronic music that focuses on texture and sound exploration without the use of rhythm or melody". It usually gets a blank stare and follow-up questions. Played a quick sample of BBBlood and they were bewildered and asked, "Why would you listen to that?" Common question and usually just end the conversation with a head shrug or just "I enjoy it."
Quote from: HateSermon on June 18, 2023, 05:42:31 PMOr using the word Industrial has so many meanings to different people.
Yep - I completely agree with what you say about 'industrial', as it is such a loaded term for wildly different meanings and interpretations. If that comes up I usually ask them what they consider to be industrial and go from there. Typically they say thinks like NIN, Marylin Manson, Rammstein (...add whatever more mainstream group here...), I usually say that underground industrial music typically is a solo project, does not rely on guitars or traditional band type formations. The conversion either continues or dissipates on the interest of said person to know more.
I usually lean on words and terms like "abstract", "atonal", "dissonant", "aleatory" "loud", "not melodic/rhythmic/etc".
My best attempt was always "experimental music made with non-musical instruments and sounds." The reasons why this is inadequate/problematic should be obvious, but so far it has typically gone over ok.
It depends on situation. Those who may get it, I tend to tell other things than to people who clearly will not get it.
One funny thing was years ago, when wife of relative asks about bands I play. As I play also in music bands, I just mentioned... kind of slow rock music, and she goes "oh, like ambient doom?".
Generally, when explaining something, people do not get it at all. For me, most common thing is the weekly routine of someone new coming to my physical shop and wondering what the hell is coming from stereos. Can't say how many times ".. is this music" -themed question comes. Multiply weeks... months, years and by decade. It still is quite amusing to see that utmost disbelief why noise is being listened.
I just send them a YouTube link.
Isn't "Noise" like Andrew WK splitting his head open on a cinder block? Think someone told that one to me like 13 years ago. Or is it EYƎ in an excavator, smashing mirrors, & prepping molotov cocktails? But one has to wonder if you play with 77 drummers are you still Noise Ramones?
I will say that just about every other musician I've made noise with generally believes that rules in music are for fascists. So many people ended up in noise because their ideas didn't conform to the genre(s) they were dedicated to. And over a decade ago noise was this vast unexplored and unexplainable style of music where any abstract instinct an artist had & any equipment they used could somehow fit into the genre. And as performance groups declined & led to the rise of a more solo artist or duo dominated genre I can understand how that changed a bit. But the whole point in my mind was to push things into a new territory of exploration. To not only challenge the listener with abrasive statements & performances; but to challenge the preconceived notions that the monopoly duopoly oligopoly distributor tries to condition into your mind.
I've seen noise mosh pits & noise dance floors. People clearing out a room because of sheer intensity and mutated pop star sing along karaoke. Wild interactive destructive performances & completely removed ambient white noise performances. I appreciate the Macronympha WCN interview when he talks about noise out lasting human existence. The idea that it's a product of nature & an occurrence beyond our perceptions of planet earth.
But in all seriousness I was asked this one when hanging flyers last month. My answer was "Electronic Punk. With a table full of hardware & gear. A lot of programming & loud frequencies often with vocals". or some kind of sheet metal contact mic'd sampler fetish screamo bass rumbling bpm obliterating high end knife edge knob twisting chain rattling distortion stacking fret noodling serine ambient delay twisting synth blasting brass woodwind psychic howling glitch pad fondling off kilter in your face intensity; limitless trance inducing composition. ♥
"a whole load of nonsense, usually loud"
Quote from: anal_yama on June 25, 2023, 01:05:07 PM
"a whole load of nonsense, usually loud"
I like this one.
Depending on the person, for the most part I say to them that I listen to avant-garde classical music, and leave it at that sometimes I would just say experimental.
Generally, when explaining something, people do not get it at all. For me, most common thing is the weekly routine of someone new coming to my physical shop and wondering what the hell is coming from stereos. Can't say how many times ".. is this music" -themed question comes. Multiply weeks... months, years and by decade. It still is quite amusing to see that utmost disbelief why noise is being listened.
[/quote]
It doesn't surprise me that in this day and age people are still oblivious to other forms of music and sound.
Quote from: anal_yama on June 25, 2023, 01:05:07 PM
"a whole load of nonsense, usually loud"
"A whole load of awesomeness, the best sounds you can imagine without boring filler, totally loud!"
Quote from: Stipsi on June 20, 2023, 07:14:46 PMI just send them a YouTube link.
Yeah, right! To expand topic a bit - what link to whatever noise do you send?
I often tell or send them the link to Merzbow - Venereology.
Maybe because this was one of the first "real" noise records I heard and bought myself.
What do you suggest to the not so noise people to look for or what link do you send to them?
Quote from: cr on March 25, 2024, 09:29:25 PMQuote from: Stipsi on June 20, 2023, 07:14:46 PMI just send them a YouTube link.
Yeah, right! To expand topic a bit - what link to whatever noise do you send?
I often tell or send them the link to Merzbow - Venereology.
Maybe because this was one of the first "real" noise records I heard and bought myself.
What do you suggest to the not so noise people to look for or what link do you send to them?
I go heavy: Taint - Laura Smithers ahahahah
Quote from: Stipsi on March 25, 2024, 09:43:02 PMI go heavy: Taint - Laura Smithers ahahahah
Haha, yes good one. Awkward discussion closed. Let's move forward talking about the great songs of Taylor Swift or Miley Cyrus!
(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,h_200,w_200/v1403837781/mqe6pkurbxgiqeep0hno.jpg)
if asked, i'd introduce them to him and his gear.
I don't really know if you can explain it well enough to others, you can kind of describe it as industrial music that is a lot more far removed from the traditional aspects of industrial "music", like it's more minimalist or stripped down to the rawest form and so much so to where the concept of it being labeled as "music" is being debated or questioned as a whole. I also feel like the listeners of noise didn't choose to listen to noise, but rather noise chose it's listeners. I've tried very hard with other metalhead folk, who seem to be the next of kin for a possible interest and literally nobody I know can genuinely say that, hey! I really enjoyed this, where can I find more of this! I feel like often with noise you're all the way in or not so much, as it's not really your cup of tea so to speak. I remember when I first got into noise it was an immediate obsession and that is true for most us I'd imagine. It becomes something you're really into or probably not at all and not to say others who first heard it and dismissed it won't return, maybe they weren't ready, but maybe one day they will be! I think if there was any time that there could be more open mindedness to noise that the time could be now, especially with a lot of the more crossover appeals these days.
Most people I brought up noise with say "it's just noise", then disregard the sounds. With some, this reaction partly seems semantically motivated. "Noise" = bad = don't listen. Another common reaction is "it's not music". It's not music, so it's not worth listening to.
Quote from: Cranial Blast on March 28, 2024, 04:03:25 AMIt becomes something you're really into or probably not at all and not to say others who first heard it and dismissed it won't return, maybe they weren't ready, but maybe one day they will be!
I think that is a very true point. I know it was true for me, at least in the sense that if I had heard noise before a certain point in the evolution of my musical tastes, I may not have gotten into it at all because I would have hated it, or at least been turned off of it for years. If someone had handed me "Pulse Demon" when I was a teenager my idea of "extreme" at that point was Pantera and Skinny Puppy? It took years and many stepping stones to get to a point where my mind was at a state where it was "open" to the idea. That doesn't mean there aren't those that have heard noise at a very young age before anything else and loved it immediately. But I think the case of someone who comes to it after years of building up to it is more common.
Honestly, I'm not sure an attempt at trying to describe noise would have made any difference to me or not. It was a constant desire to find new and interesting types of sound. People either have that or don't, and descriptions aren't going to matter too much in the end.
Another point is that its not only HOW and WHEN that may determine if someone gets into noise or not, but WHAT. What is their introduction? There's a lot out there, and some is going to be easier to digest at first. Hearing the wrong thing might put someone off, even when they were ready for something more accessible.
I really enjoy Hijokaidan's stuff nowadays, but if they had been the first noise I heard? A guy trying to murder his guitar in the midst of a tornado destroying a factory, accompanied on vocals by a woman who sounds like she's in the process of giving birth to a sawblade coated in battery acid? I'm not sure I would have stuck around. :)
I have some friends that are in to music, and i showed them some of the stuff i listen to. I said something along the lines of "harsh, hostile types of ambience".
Their base knowledge of noise was just that people do it. They thought the core of noise music is just some avant-garde type art performance stuff.
Very common question where I'm from, especially from within common "alternative music" scenes. The typical response I would usually give is experimental/avant-garde with aspects of industrial-electronic.
I also emphasize the importance of the "art" side of noise (visuals, live performance, etc.) and suggest new people to approach it from this perspective rather than from a "music" side. Coming from the latter usually results in boredom for the uninitiated, coming from the former allows from open-ended interpretation.
So yeah then, describing noise to someone is properly done, you let them listen to some examples, and then comes next question - "WHY do you like listening to noise? I can't believe, that anyone voluntarily likes to listen to such sounds and finds comfort in it."
What do you say?
Quote from: cr on June 30, 2024, 01:52:13 PMSo yeah then, describing noise to someone is properly done, you let them listen to some examples, and then comes next question - "WHY do you like listening to noise? I can't believe, that anyone voluntarily likes to listen to such sounds and finds comfort in it."
What do you say?
I'd say that's where the conversation ends. It's a disingenuous question. At that point they don't care about noise, they're asking what's wrong w/ you? Like why would you eat such spicy food?! Why do you exercise so hard? Why would anyone want to witness a corpse flower bloom? Why would you watch such an upsetting film? What's wrong with people?!
I'm always surprised that people who are into art or art history or music are so dismissive of noise. It's a very fascinating phenomenon!
I'd describe it as branch of Industrial music without the "music" and even further removed from the source and probably more so than any other kind of subgenre within that type. Also would mention there is a bigger emphasis put on scope of art, in some cases being equally as important if not more than the sounds.
Quote from: Cranial Blast on June 30, 2024, 06:19:33 PMAlso would mention there is a bigger emphasis put on scope of art, in some cases being equally as important if not more than the sounds.
I think that last bit is really alienating, or could be a big turn-off for an interested but unfamiliar audience. The booklet is more important than what's on the tape? No thank you. Maybe, this is best understood or heard in context of the artwork.
Quote from: cr on June 30, 2024, 01:52:13 PMSo yeah then, describing noise to someone is properly done, you let them listen to some examples, and then comes next question - "WHY do you like listening to noise? I can't believe, that anyone voluntarily likes to listen to such sounds and finds comfort in it."
What do you say?
Nothing.
You take out the meat cleaver you've been hiding behind your back, caress it lovingly, and smile at them.
I dunno, I think in some cases that sentiment carries over true. The Rita's work for me is almost more important to me with the artwork side of things as much as it is the sound. I think that saying equally important isn't so alienating, it could be more intriguing to the potential next listener.
Quote from: BatteredStatesofEuphoria on June 30, 2024, 11:22:10 PMQuote from: cr on June 30, 2024, 01:52:13 PMSo yeah then, describing noise to someone is properly done, you let them listen to some examples, and then comes next question - "WHY do you like listening to noise? I can't believe, that anyone voluntarily likes to listen to such sounds and finds comfort in it."
What do you say?
Nothing.
You take out the meat cleaver you've been hiding behind your back, caress it lovingly, and smile at them.
uh oh! does mom know you have the cleaver? Hahahahah 🤦🏻
One time was discussing with friend that was convinced that you could simply explain things to kids. He was thinking it was odd that if someone gets pissed off about questions, when you can simply explain it. I mentioned that its possible you haven't really had such talk, and it's roughly 3-5 questions, further when you really can't explain, since whatever questions are being asked, one just have to decide level where somethings is given, so to say.
One could easily explain things they like in noise, but it is very close to almost any human desire, that it is irrational emotion where you do not have real explanation. Like explaining why you have specific taste? One usually can describe some sort of qualities that you like and prefer over something else, but does this taste itself have "explanation"? Most likely not and probably is something irrational, beyond the simple cultural or biological explanation.
Few decades ago, when I was teenager living with parents, some folks came to visit and they had same age teenage girl with them and we hang out in my room and girl mentions that she is little strange, that she likes music like Toto. I asked is she'd like to hear something weird, and pulled out Bizarre Uproar/Man Is The Bastard -split 7", put that on stereos. She sat through entire side of 7" and then said "I'll go check out what my parents are doing".
I think it's challenging to describe to other people the appeal of noise and what it means to you as the listener. I know some people around me, cannot stand noise and it even irritates them or pisses them off to a certain degree. I know what I like about it and I also like that noise tends to dissolve away all forms of conventional normalities through it's non musical approach to where it becomes just sound or at the most on the fringes of some sort of ambient types of music. I loved noise the exact same way I first fell in love with the film Videodrome. It's the same exact emotional reaction and response and that's a hard thing to explain to someone in a way. It's somewhere between the nexus of nihilism and off kilter art and the monochromatic culture that is the marriage of those things and between all of that shares a commonality in the droning industrial sounds, it's a pain is pleasure kind of aesthetic and noise is just that, it's painful and pleasurable all in one.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 01, 2024, 08:29:22 PMFew decades ago, when I was teenager living with parents, some folks came to visit and they had same age teenage girl with them and we hang out in my room and girl mentions that she is little strange, that she likes music like Toto. I asked is she'd like to hear something weird, and pulled out Bizarre Uproar/Man Is The Bastard -split 7", put that on stereos. She sat through entire side of 7" and then said "I'll go check out what my parents are doing".
That's pretty much myself trying to settle with the normie girls around me that I have crushes upon. Obviously, eh, doesn't work out for me.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 01, 2024, 08:29:22 PMFew decades ago, when I was teenager living with parents, some folks came to visit and they had same age teenage girl with them and we hang out in my room and girl mentions that she is little strange, that she likes music like Toto. I asked is she'd like to hear something weird, and pulled out Bizarre Uproar/Man Is The Bastard -split 7", put that on stereos. She sat through entire side of 7" and then said "I'll go check out what my parents are doing".
haha At least she was semi-patient, listening through half of it. It reminds me a bit of the time that I had to try and explain my "Buyer's Market" shirt to a girl I was in a class with.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 01, 2024, 08:29:22 PMFew decades ago, when I was teenager living with parents, some folks came to visit and they had same age teenage girl with them and we hang out in my room and girl mentions that she is little strange, that she likes music like Toto. I asked is she'd like to hear something weird, and pulled out Bizarre Uproar/Man Is The Bastard -split 7", put that on stereos. She sat through entire side of 7" and then said "I'll go check out what my parents are doing".
I'm not saying this never happened, but holy shit does this sound like something that never happened hahahaha
The real question is: which side did you play to her first?
I played only Bizarre Uproar side, hah. I don't think this is THAT weird happening.
Considering that I just about every day I listen to noise at work (=record store) where regular people are watching mouths open what the fuck is happening. Not long time I got teenage couple visiting store, just because guy wanted to show his girlfriend this place where man is listening to awful noise all the time. It is every week that I get to explain people what is happening here, is material coming from CD, tape or LP. I've been in this conversation of "explaining noise" to normies about 50 times a year or so, for very long time. In recent years, there has been increase of teenagers in underground music and it is curious how that small element of "music" is such a important element. As long as distortion is controlled by guitar riff and percussive pulse is done by "drums", its fine. As soon as instruments are abandoned, still in 2024, it seems to amaze people.
Heh, I figured - should have played the Man Is The Bastard side first, and charmed her to remain...
The few times that I'll mention to work colleagues, family members or people just outside my circle of friends that I listen to noise or I've been to shows of that nature, I'll just say broadly that it's noisy, loud or "experimental" stuff. No need to go into specifics unless they're more curious, and I don't advertise my interest in this through wearing merch or shirts (one of the main appeals of noise for me when entering it was there wasn't a defined "look" or any fashion associated with this subculture). If there was a unique performance element to a show I'd seen I'd mention it or if video footage from the show surfaced the next day on YouTube, I might show it to them - it usually warrants a laugh that I paid good money and my free time to see it, or comments of "this isn't music" or "they don't know how to play". I won't be offended, and anyway it certainly beats their night in with the telly.
Recently, a live video from a Ryosuke Kiyasu solo snare set I went to got some hearty laughs from people at work given the viral nature of his shows... but I also think they want to see him when he next plays live just for the spectacle of it? And someone else at work who is familiar with death metal and who could best be described as a 'weeaboo' got shown a Hanatarashi video essay and a Masonna live video on YouTube, and I think he kind of appreciated seeing another extreme side to Japanese culture that he wasn't previously aware of through these gateway projects.
My lazy replay is that noise is the audio version of an abstract painting. Like if a Jackson Pollack was a song. And like abstract art you need a master to make it great because anyone can splash paint but only a few can make it worth your while.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 03, 2024, 09:13:12 AMI played only Bizarre Uproar side, hah. I don't think this is THAT weird happening.
she was too old for you?
Quote from: Bigsby on July 03, 2024, 06:58:49 PMQuote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 03, 2024, 09:13:12 AMI played only Bizarre Uproar side, hah. I don't think this is THAT weird happening.
she was too old for you?
Mikko said above "they had same age teenage girl with them". What are you implying, Bigsby?
Quote from: theotherjohn on July 04, 2024, 01:51:01 AMQuote from: Bigsby on July 03, 2024, 06:58:49 PMQuote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 03, 2024, 09:13:12 AMI played only Bizarre Uproar side, hah. I don't think this is THAT weird happening.
she was too old for you?
Mikko said above "they had same age teenage girl with them". What are you implying, Bigsby?
oh it's a very complicated & nuanced joke
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 01, 2024, 08:29:22 PMOne time was discussing with friend that was convinced that you could simply explain things to kids. He was thinking it was odd that if someone gets pissed off about questions, when you can simply explain it. I mentioned that its possible you haven't really had such talk, and it's roughly 3-5 questions, further when you really can't explain, since whatever questions are being asked, one just have to decide level where somethings is given, so to say.
One could easily explain things they like in noise, but it is very close to almost any human desire, that it is irrational emotion where you do not have real explanation. Like explaining why you have specific taste? One usually can describe some sort of qualities that you like and prefer over something else, but does this taste itself have "explanation"? Most likely not and probably is something irrational, beyond the simple cultural or biological explanation.
Few decades ago, when I was teenager living with parents, some folks came to visit and they had same age teenage girl with them and we hang out in my room and girl mentions that she is little strange, that she likes music like Toto. I asked is she'd like to hear something weird, and pulled out Bizarre Uproar/Man Is The Bastard -split 7", put that on stereos. She sat through entire side of 7" and then said "I'll go check out what my parents are doing".
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 03, 2024, 09:13:12 AMI played only Bizarre Uproar side, hah. I don't think this is THAT weird happening.
Considering that I just about every day I listen to noise at work (=record store) where regular people are watching mouths open what the fuck is happening. Not long time I got teenage couple visiting store, just because guy wanted to show his girlfriend this place where man is listening to awful noise all the time. It is every week that I get to explain people what is happening here, is material coming from CD, tape or LP. I've been in this conversation of "explaining noise" to normies about 50 times a year or so, for very long time. In recent years, there has been increase of teenagers in underground music and it is curious how that small element of "music" is such a important element. As long as distortion is controlled by guitar riff and percussive pulse is done by "drums", its fine. As soon as instruments are abandoned, still in 2024, it seems to amaze people.
Hah yes, that's a great story playing this 7" for the "strange girl" with the special musical taste. Many years ago I remember playing some noise to a girl as well. It didn't went well...
Two or three years ago, I had conversation about musical taste with somebody being more than 20 years younger than me. He told me first he listens to such extreme music, nobody else wants to listen to it. When I asked, it was something like Metalcore. Don't have anything against it, but it's just nothing for me. Then he asked, what I like and I explained best that I could. Finally I just put my phone on the table and started some Incapacitants record on YT. Whithin 20 seconds, he pressed the stop button on my phone, looking very confused and went his ways.
Goddamn, I'm seriously jealous to everyone, who can listen to noise at work. In my workplace I have only the worst of pop music, played over and over again. That's how gunmen are made, haha!
And from my experience, after the WHY NOISE? question almost always comes the HOW DID YOU GET THERE? question (at least from the ones who are still somehow interested at this point)
I dont even bother. When question about music comes i settle with 'I dont listen to music much. Depending time and place i might enjoy anything' . - But i reply in similar way in other similar questions too ie: What's your hobbies ? . Honestly i find such questions a meaningless and false attempt to 'know' the other person quickly, at the best case.
Quote from: Theodore on July 07, 2024, 03:17:02 PMI dont even bother. When question about music comes i settle with 'I dont listen to music much. Depending time and place i might enjoy anything' . - But i reply in similar way in other similar questions too ie: What's your hobbies ? . Honestly i find such questions a meaningless and false attempt to 'know' the other person quickly, at the best case.
Yeah I kinda agree with you on that. it can certainly can be meaningless indeed and not very often can a good conversation on the matter take place. I learned years and years ago to just keep to myself about what I listen to or like with people who I might have to do some explaining, cause you always got someone going, oh so you like metal huh! So are you into that Slipknot or what?! I'll say no and you get this smug dumbass look like as if you're the poser and you get something like this...ohh okay you're not into the really wild stuff then! More often than not, I'd be best to NEVER talk about my musical interests outside of this forum with the average normal folk as often it just leads to a bust or opening a can of worms most of the time and maybe that's just a thing where I live, but leads me to think what's is the point to explaining "noise" to the average person, when metal is already an uphill battle, sounds like more of the same self induced migraine.
What's funny is that lots of punk and metal listeners are happy with distortion but if you remove the guitars and drums, suddenly it's unlistenable. It seems that music being a "language" is important to many for feeling what they're listening to is meaningful, where the rules of traditional composition constitute the foundations of the language they associate with music. Often the experience of sound is directly meaningful, and sound does not need to be an intermediary for abstraction or verbally describable ideas to be meaningful.
Quote from: Moran on July 08, 2024, 01:33:58 AMWhat's funny is that lots of punk and metal listeners are happy with distortion but if you remove the guitars and drums, suddenly it's unlistenable. It seems that music being a "language" is important to many for feeling what they're listening to is meaningful, where the rules of traditional composition constitute the foundations of the language they associate with music. Often the experience of sound is directly meaningful, and sound does not need to be an intermediary for abstraction or verbally describable ideas to be meaningful.
Absolutely! Once you remove the "language" aspect like you described/mentioned suddenly estrangement takes form! Haha...I think that's what separates those willing to seek the path from those whom are just comfortable with what they think and know as "what's best". I don't think any which way is wrong or right, but goes back to the point of what's the point of even trying to explain noise to someone, hah.
Quote from: Cranial Blast on July 08, 2024, 02:01:58 AMQuote from: Moran on July 08, 2024, 01:33:58 AMWhat's funny is that lots of punk and metal listeners are happy with distortion but if you remove the guitars and drums, suddenly it's unlistenable. It seems that music being a "language" is important to many for feeling what they're listening to is meaningful, where the rules of traditional composition constitute the foundations of the language they associate with music. Often the experience of sound is directly meaningful, and sound does not need to be an intermediary for abstraction or verbally describable ideas to be meaningful.
Absolutely! Once you remove the "language" aspect like you described/mentioned suddenly estrangement takes form! Haha...I think that's what separates those willing to seek the path from those whom are just comfortable with what they think and know as "what's best". I don't think any which way is wrong or right, but goes back to the point of what's the point of even trying to explain noise to someone, hah.
Should noise even be regarded as a "path," or is it the anti-path?
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on July 09, 2024, 06:25:56 AMQuote from: Cranial Blast on July 08, 2024, 02:01:58 AMQuote from: Moran on July 08, 2024, 01:33:58 AMWhat's funny is that lots of punk and metal listeners are happy with distortion but if you remove the guitars and drums, suddenly it's unlistenable. It seems that music being a "language" is important to many for feeling what they're listening to is meaningful, where the rules of traditional composition constitute the foundations of the language they associate with music. Often the experience of sound is directly meaningful, and sound does not need to be an intermediary for abstraction or verbally describable ideas to be meaningful.
Absolutely! Once you remove the "language" aspect like you described/mentioned suddenly estrangement takes form! Haha...I think that's what separates those willing to seek the path from those whom are just comfortable with what they think and know as "what's best". I don't think any which way is wrong or right, but goes back to the point of what's the point of even trying to explain noise to someone, hah.
Should noise even be regarded as a "path," or is it the anti-path?
Probably an anti-path is better put and more logical in all reality. I should correct myself with more enhanced clarity that I think noise could potentially be more of a "gateway"... gateway perhaps better described than path, path is paved out and ready to tread, gateway can a bit more challenging and require more from the individual to seek out. Lies somewhere between possible gateway and even more so anti-path, indefinitely!
The more i've thought about this subject i've come to the conclusion that noise and industrial expression is harder to describe succesfully to this certain "normal" rock-oriented people (i.e. punk, indie and standard heavy metal listeners) than to "normies" and people that are used to more experimental approaches in sound and music. For example synth guys tend to be intrested when discussion veers into the noise territory and normies don't give a shit or think that it is like punk but seldom they are negative about the concept.
It has been amusing to observe that more often than not the punk and metal people tend to get really reactionary about noise. Especially in punk context all of a sudden all kinds of people that identify themselves as liberals start to turn sour and spill out sentences like "noise it not even music" or "it is complete bullshit / hoax" etc. I don't know if it is just manifestations of one's taste, sheepish mass behaviour or moral reaction towards the imaginary politics in noise, but it seems to be a some kind of a thing.
Quote from: Cranial Blast on July 09, 2024, 06:41:38 AMQuote from: Balor/SS1535 on July 09, 2024, 06:25:56 AMQuote from: Cranial Blast on July 08, 2024, 02:01:58 AMQuote from: Moran on July 08, 2024, 01:33:58 AMWhat's funny is that lots of punk and metal listeners are happy with distortion but if you remove the guitars and drums, suddenly it's unlistenable. It seems that music being a "language" is important to many for feeling what they're listening to is meaningful, where the rules of traditional composition constitute the foundations of the language they associate with music. Often the experience of sound is directly meaningful, and sound does not need to be an intermediary for abstraction or verbally describable ideas to be meaningful.
Absolutely! Once you remove the "language" aspect like you described/mentioned suddenly estrangement takes form! Haha...I think that's what separates those willing to seek the path from those whom are just comfortable with what they think and know as "what's best". I don't think any which way is wrong or right, but goes back to the point of what's the point of even trying to explain noise to someone, hah.
Should noise even be regarded as a "path," or is it the anti-path?
Probably an anti-path is better put and more logical in all reality. I should correct myself with more enhanced clarity that I think noise could potentially be more of a "gateway"... gateway perhaps better described than path, path is paved out and ready to tread, gateway can a bit more challenging and require more from the individual to seek out. Lies somewhere between possible gateway and even more so anti-path, indefinitely!
"Gateway" is interesting, as it doesn't specify anything on either side of it, but it does recognize noise
music as a particular something that serves as a point of transition.
Quote from: Commander15 on July 09, 2024, 09:35:21 AMnoise and industrial expression is harder to describe succesfully to this certain "normal" rock-oriented people (i.e. punk, indie and standard heavy metal listeners)
Many such people have an idea of how "hard/heavy" music ought to sound; when noise doesn't fit this idea, they tend to get defensive.
Coincidentally, while reading a paper titled "Why
Bohor?" (https://hal.science/hal-01789708/file/Iannis%20Xenakis,%20La%20musique%20e%CC%81lectroacoustique:%20The%20elctroacoustic%20Music.pdf) today, I encountered this excerpt by Xenakis:
QuoteToday's technocrats and their followers treat music as a message which the composer (source) sends to a listener (receiver). In this way they believe that the solution to the problem of the nature of music and of the arts in general lies in formulae taken from information theory. Drawing up an account of bits or quanta of information transmitted and received would thus seem to provide them with "objective" and scientific criteria of aesthetic value. Yet apart from elementary statistical recipes this theory—which is valuable for technological communications—has proved incapable of giving the characteristics of aesthetic value even for a simple melody of J.S. Bach. Identifications of music with message, with communication, and with language are schematizations whose tendency is towards absurdities and desiccations.
About sixty years later, the main criticism of noise is still "i-it's not music!" based on beliefs that abstraction and language are the essence of knowledge, despite how ineffective they are without sensory aspects for expression.
Quote from: Bigsby on July 04, 2024, 04:58:43 AMQuote from: theotherjohn on July 04, 2024, 01:51:01 AMQuote from: Bigsby on July 03, 2024, 06:58:49 PMQuote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 03, 2024, 09:13:12 AMI played only Bizarre Uproar side, hah. I don't think this is THAT weird happening.
she was too old for you?
Mikko said above "they had same age teenage girl with them". What are you implying, Bigsby?
oh it's a very complicated & nuanced joke
Maybe she might have been a substitute. If you know what I mean.
"Normie girl: wow, that's such a cool crib you got there. That Batlord poster is really cool. I have a really good family, what about you?
Mikko: I see you with the magazine, browsing, in search for the picture of your father's magazines. Your father... what do you think about it? Doesn't feel normal, to watch girls puke... and shit. Sometimes taking right out of the oven, inside their mouths. This is what your father wants you to do. Filmed on video and caught for him and all the rest of his type.
Normie girl: I'm just gonna check out what my family is doing, if you don't mind."
For now I have settled on how I answer the question about type of music I create (when asked by people who are not into industrial). I say "experimental noise" even though what I do isn't particularly experimental and often not even that noisy... A more accurate answer would be along the lines of death industrial / power electronics / heavy electronics etc. but these terms are meaningless to most people. While sounding a bit pretentious, "Experimental noise" as a phrase gives them a decent idea because at least they recognise two words - "experimental" is a loose synonym for "weird" or "unusual" (which is directionally accurate, PE is weird and unusual by average music standards) and "noise" is a recognisable term for all things atonal and and non-melodical (which is again, fair enough). If someone wants to learn more after this explanation, I'd rather send a link to a song.
While I think in most cases its futile to try to explain or make people understand, I feel trying to describe from the ground up, so the process behind making noise, what makes it sound the way it does and how it differs from other sonic creative activity (both in theory and process) makes it a bit more digestable than simply trying to explain how it sounds. Sort of helps demystify it to people or brings it to their level.
Main problem ultimately comes from the person you're explaining it to and their attitude towards music or even art in general. People who mostly interact with music in a casual way, like listening to car radio, while working out, seeing live performers maybe at some big festival etc... will have trouble understanding the dedication required so to speak (as I feel there is hardly a "casual" space in noise) and generally the culture around it, but they tend to be more receptive to the sonic ideas on paper or are less outright dismissive about it (how they'd treat it in practice is entirely different question haha).
Then people who are more passionate about any form of music tend to be immediately more hostile to how noise sounds as they might see it as a bastardisation/corruption of music or somehow a threat to what they're passionate about.
Among people into more "extreme" music so punks/metalheads, the idea they have of what heavy/extreme ought to be definitely plays a part as pointed out here before, and sort of creates misconception about noise. I think many people here will also see noise/industrial as a sibling of punk/metal and will try to fit similar rules and standards to is as they do to their own genre, and when it (obviously) doesn't meet their expectations and criteria for whats "correct", they'll walk away upset.
Lots of interesting talk here and I very much understand not even trying to engage the topic with certain people knowing the most common responses.
I heard someone describe making electroacoustic music as "painting with sound". Describing noise without associating it with tonality might help people learn about it with less misleading preconceptions.
Someone asked me, what did you get for birthday? I proudly answered - the David Gilden:Texas Pillbox boxset.
Hell, what the fuck's that?
What do you say?