Describing Noise to someone who never heard about it

Started by cr, June 18, 2023, 03:17:35 PM

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Theodore

I dont even bother. When question about music comes i settle with 'I dont listen to music much. Depending time and place i might enjoy anything' . - But i reply in similar way in other similar questions too ie: What's your hobbies ? . Honestly i find such questions a meaningless and false attempt to 'know' the other person quickly, at the best case.
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

Cranial Blast

Quote from: Theodore on July 07, 2024, 03:17:02 PMI dont even bother. When question about music comes i settle with 'I dont listen to music much. Depending time and place i might enjoy anything' . - But i reply in similar way in other similar questions too ie: What's your hobbies ? . Honestly i find such questions a meaningless and false attempt to 'know' the other person quickly, at the best case.

Yeah I kinda agree with you on that. it can certainly can be meaningless indeed and not very often can a good conversation on the matter take place. I learned years and years ago to just keep to myself about what I listen to or like with people who I might have to do some explaining, cause you always got someone going, oh so you like metal huh! So are you into that Slipknot or what?! I'll say no and you get this smug dumbass look like as if you're the poser and you get something like this...ohh okay you're not into the really wild stuff then! More often than not, I'd be best to NEVER talk about my musical interests outside of this forum with the average normal folk as often it just leads to a bust or opening a can of worms most of the time and maybe that's just a thing where I live, but leads me to think what's is the point to explaining "noise" to the average person, when metal is already an uphill battle, sounds like more of the same self induced migraine.

Moran

What's funny is that lots of punk and metal listeners are happy with distortion but if you remove the guitars and drums, suddenly it's unlistenable. It seems that music being a "language" is important to many for feeling what they're listening to is meaningful, where the rules of traditional composition constitute the foundations of the language they associate with music. Often the experience of sound is directly meaningful, and sound does not need to be an intermediary for abstraction or verbally describable ideas to be meaningful.

Cranial Blast

Quote from: Moran on July 08, 2024, 01:33:58 AMWhat's funny is that lots of punk and metal listeners are happy with distortion but if you remove the guitars and drums, suddenly it's unlistenable. It seems that music being a "language" is important to many for feeling what they're listening to is meaningful, where the rules of traditional composition constitute the foundations of the language they associate with music. Often the experience of sound is directly meaningful, and sound does not need to be an intermediary for abstraction or verbally describable ideas to be meaningful.

Absolutely! Once you remove the "language" aspect like you described/mentioned suddenly estrangement takes form! Haha...I think that's what separates those willing to seek the path from those whom are just comfortable with what they think and know as "what's best". I don't think any which way is wrong or right, but goes back to the point of what's the point of even trying to explain noise to someone, hah.

Balor/SS1535

Quote from: Cranial Blast on July 08, 2024, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Moran on July 08, 2024, 01:33:58 AMWhat's funny is that lots of punk and metal listeners are happy with distortion but if you remove the guitars and drums, suddenly it's unlistenable. It seems that music being a "language" is important to many for feeling what they're listening to is meaningful, where the rules of traditional composition constitute the foundations of the language they associate with music. Often the experience of sound is directly meaningful, and sound does not need to be an intermediary for abstraction or verbally describable ideas to be meaningful.

Absolutely! Once you remove the "language" aspect like you described/mentioned suddenly estrangement takes form! Haha...I think that's what separates those willing to seek the path from those whom are just comfortable with what they think and know as "what's best". I don't think any which way is wrong or right, but goes back to the point of what's the point of even trying to explain noise to someone, hah.

Should noise even be regarded as a "path," or is it the anti-path?

Cranial Blast

#50
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on July 09, 2024, 06:25:56 AM
Quote from: Cranial Blast on July 08, 2024, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Moran on July 08, 2024, 01:33:58 AMWhat's funny is that lots of punk and metal listeners are happy with distortion but if you remove the guitars and drums, suddenly it's unlistenable. It seems that music being a "language" is important to many for feeling what they're listening to is meaningful, where the rules of traditional composition constitute the foundations of the language they associate with music. Often the experience of sound is directly meaningful, and sound does not need to be an intermediary for abstraction or verbally describable ideas to be meaningful.

Absolutely! Once you remove the "language" aspect like you described/mentioned suddenly estrangement takes form! Haha...I think that's what separates those willing to seek the path from those whom are just comfortable with what they think and know as "what's best". I don't think any which way is wrong or right, but goes back to the point of what's the point of even trying to explain noise to someone, hah.

Should noise even be regarded as a "path," or is it the anti-path?

Probably an anti-path is better put and more logical in all reality. I should correct myself with more enhanced clarity that I think noise could potentially be more of a "gateway"... gateway perhaps better described than path, path is paved out and ready to tread, gateway can a bit more challenging and require more from the individual to seek out. Lies somewhere between possible gateway and even more so anti-path, indefinitely!

Commander15

The more i've thought about this subject i've come to the conclusion that noise and industrial expression is harder to describe succesfully to this certain "normal" rock-oriented people (i.e. punk, indie and standard heavy metal listeners) than to "normies" and people that are used to more experimental approaches in sound and music. For example synth guys tend to be intrested when discussion veers into the noise territory and normies don't give a shit or think that it is like punk but seldom they are negative about the concept.

It has been amusing to observe that more often than not the punk and metal people tend to get really reactionary about noise. Especially in punk context all of a sudden all kinds of people that identify themselves as liberals start to turn sour and spill out sentences like "noise it not even music" or "it is complete bullshit / hoax" etc. I don't know if it is just manifestations of one's taste, sheepish mass behaviour or moral reaction towards the imaginary politics in noise, but it seems to be a some kind of a thing.

Balor/SS1535

Quote from: Cranial Blast on July 09, 2024, 06:41:38 AM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on July 09, 2024, 06:25:56 AM
Quote from: Cranial Blast on July 08, 2024, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Moran on July 08, 2024, 01:33:58 AMWhat's funny is that lots of punk and metal listeners are happy with distortion but if you remove the guitars and drums, suddenly it's unlistenable. It seems that music being a "language" is important to many for feeling what they're listening to is meaningful, where the rules of traditional composition constitute the foundations of the language they associate with music. Often the experience of sound is directly meaningful, and sound does not need to be an intermediary for abstraction or verbally describable ideas to be meaningful.

Absolutely! Once you remove the "language" aspect like you described/mentioned suddenly estrangement takes form! Haha...I think that's what separates those willing to seek the path from those whom are just comfortable with what they think and know as "what's best". I don't think any which way is wrong or right, but goes back to the point of what's the point of even trying to explain noise to someone, hah.

Should noise even be regarded as a "path," or is it the anti-path?

Probably an anti-path is better put and more logical in all reality. I should correct myself with more enhanced clarity that I think noise could potentially be more of a "gateway"... gateway perhaps better described than path, path is paved out and ready to tread, gateway can a bit more challenging and require more from the individual to seek out. Lies somewhere between possible gateway and even more so anti-path, indefinitely!

"Gateway" is interesting, as it doesn't specify anything on either side of it, but it does recognize noise music as a particular something that serves as a point of transition.

Moran

Quote from: Commander15 on July 09, 2024, 09:35:21 AMnoise and industrial expression is harder to describe succesfully to this certain "normal" rock-oriented people (i.e. punk, indie and standard heavy metal listeners)
Many such people have an idea of how "hard/heavy" music ought to sound; when noise doesn't fit this idea, they tend to get defensive.

Coincidentally, while reading a paper titled "Why Bohor?" today, I encountered this excerpt by Xenakis:
QuoteToday's technocrats and their followers treat music as a message which the composer (source) sends to a listener (receiver). In this way they believe that the solution to the problem of the nature of music and of the arts in general lies in formulae taken from information theory. Drawing up an account of bits or quanta of information transmitted and received would thus seem to provide them with "objective" and scientific criteria of aesthetic value. Yet apart from elementary statistical recipes this theory—which is valuable for technological communications—has proved incapable of giving the characteristics of aesthetic value even for a simple melody of J.S. Bach. Identifications of music with message, with communication, and with language are schematizations whose tendency is towards absurdities and desiccations.
About sixty years later, the main criticism of noise is still "i-it's not music!" based on beliefs that abstraction and language are the essence of knowledge, despite how ineffective they are without sensory aspects for expression.

Kaaoskultti

Quote from: Bigsby on July 04, 2024, 04:58:43 AM
Quote from: theotherjohn on July 04, 2024, 01:51:01 AM
Quote from: Bigsby on July 03, 2024, 06:58:49 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 03, 2024, 09:13:12 AMI played only Bizarre Uproar side, hah. I don't think this is THAT weird happening.

she was too old for you?

Mikko said above "they had same age teenage girl with them". What are you implying, Bigsby?

oh it's a very complicated & nuanced joke

Maybe she might have been a substitute. If you know what I mean.

"Normie girl: wow, that's such a cool crib you got there. That Batlord poster is really cool. I have a really good family, what about you?

Mikko: I see you with the magazine, browsing, in search for the picture of your father's magazines. Your father... what do you think about it? Doesn't feel normal, to watch girls puke... and shit. Sometimes taking right out of the oven, inside their mouths. This is what your father wants you to do. Filmed on video and caught for him and all the rest of his type.

Normie girl: I'm just gonna check out what my family is doing, if you don't mind."
ZOB ZYGGLAN - Brazilian Power Electronics - https://zobzygglan.bandcamp.com/

Penon

For now I have settled on how I answer the question about type of music I create (when asked by people who are not into industrial). I say "experimental noise" even though what I do isn't particularly experimental and often not even that noisy... A more accurate answer would be along the lines of death industrial / power electronics / heavy electronics etc. but these terms are meaningless to most people. While sounding a bit pretentious, "Experimental noise" as a phrase gives them a decent idea because at least they recognise two words - "experimental" is a loose synonym for "weird" or "unusual" (which is directionally accurate, PE is weird and unusual by average music standards) and "noise" is a recognisable term for all things atonal and and non-melodical (which is again, fair enough). If someone wants to learn more after this explanation, I'd rather send a link to a song.
Minimum Sentence - UK Disquieting Noise Experiments / Industrial Electronics:
Youtube - Bandcamp - Instagram

Alföld

While I think in most cases its futile to try to explain or make people understand, I feel trying to describe from the ground up, so the process behind making noise, what makes it sound the way it does and how it differs from other sonic creative activity (both in theory and process) makes it a bit more digestable than simply trying to explain how it sounds. Sort of helps demystify it to people or brings it to their level.
Main problem ultimately comes from the person you're explaining it to and their attitude towards music or even art in general. People who mostly interact with music in a casual way, like listening to car radio, while working out, seeing live performers maybe at some big festival etc... will have trouble understanding the dedication required so to speak (as I feel there is hardly a "casual" space in noise) and generally the culture around it, but they tend to be more receptive to the sonic ideas on paper or are less outright dismissive about it (how they'd treat it in practice is entirely different question haha).
Then people who are more passionate about any form of music tend to be immediately more hostile to how noise sounds as they might see it as a bastardisation/corruption of music or somehow a threat to what they're passionate about.
Among people into more "extreme" music so punks/metalheads, the idea they have of what heavy/extreme ought to be definitely plays a part as pointed out here before, and sort of creates misconception about noise. I think many people here will also see noise/industrial as a sibling of punk/metal and will try to fit similar rules and standards to is as they do to their own genre, and when it (obviously) doesn't meet their expectations and criteria for whats "correct", they'll walk away upset.
Lots of interesting talk here and I very much understand not even trying to engage the topic with certain people knowing the most common responses.

Moran

I heard someone describe making electroacoustic music as "painting with sound". Describing noise without associating it with tonality might help people learn about it with less misleading preconceptions.

cr

Someone asked me, what did you get for birthday? I proudly answered - the David Gilden:Texas Pillbox boxset.
Hell, what the fuck's that?

What do you say?