I figured this would be a pretty interesting thread to start. I thought about throwing the essay in the Whitehouse thread however I'm also curious to see what everyone else has to post here. If my writing is poor I apologize, just wanted to write down my thoughts. I'm not super intricate with my lanuage so this won't be entirely formal.
***WARNING FOR DISCUSSION OF POTENTIALLY SENSITIVE TOPICS***
BPD = Borderline Personality Disorder
pwBPD = Person with BPD
Mental illness isn't really an uncommon topic at all in noise music, and as a pwBPD, I found myself morbidly relating to the song 'Cut Hands Has the Solution' by Whitehouse. From what I see online, I think people overall interpret it as a song about self harm, eating disorders too, the "I know you're a slow, fussy pathetic eater" line adds up for that but, I can't help but look deeply into the lyrics of this song and see the worst parts of my life be so linearly represented.
With my experience in my own BPD, I feel like a prisoner in my own mind a lot of the time. When addressing my feelings, sharing my own ailments with people such as my favorite person I feel the need to refer to my feelings as a seperate entity. I feel like this is just because I wish so badly it could be different and I could 'fix' myself. I'm saying things like "My BPD makes me think (So and So)" or "My BPD is freaking out" so on and so forth. I am self aware of these things, my distorted thoughts are wrong, but it doesn't make it feel any less real inside to acknowledge that they're distorted. They just are. It's how I feel in the moment.
I see this song as a narrator speaking to an individual, in this case 'Cut Hands'... and the way I am interpreting it, Cut hands would be the entity. Cut Hands is BPD speaking to a pwBPD's brain. Cut Hands reminds you that you're aware of these things, and yet you can't do much to help yourself. Even the title (and i suppose also a line in the song) "Cut Hands Has The Solution", the solution in question would be to commit suicide. An phenomenon in BPD is a pwBPD will often feel like the only way to fix themselves is to end their life. I am now going to highlight specific lines in the lyrics that resonate with me.
"I'll tell you:
It's helping
I'll tell you:
You're doing the right thing"
I just touched on this a moment before. Viewing the song as written as described above as BPD or 'Cut Hands' speaking to the pwBPD's conciousness, I interpret this as again the pwBPD is aware of their actions, how self harm and other depracating behaviors are ultimately hurting them in the long run, yet over and over they will have this voice (Cut Hands) inside their heads that tells them to do it. That it's ok, it's what you need to do and it is helping you.
"I can see you're used
And I don't know where you've been
But I do know past failures still haunt you"
Dwelling on past mistakes, past traumas actively affecting you even if it was years or decades ago. This might also be a comment on failed suicide attempts.
"Thoughtless slow remarks you later regret
It's hard to own up and take the blame
For being a nervous gibbering wreck
So go on be a careless fucking onlooker
So you can sit and not-think about pain"
In episodes, a pwBPD fails to rationalize. They can say things they don't mean, or that they word harshly in the heat of their own emotions consuming them. They feel guilty for this, they feel an immense amount of dread. This leads to a pwBPD to isolate themselves from other people for this. They fear abandonment, and they know these behaviors cause people to leave them. So, they feel the only solution to this is to isolate themselves and not let themselves get close to anyone. On the off chance that they might fuck it up. The idea of being abandoned after a connection to us is worse.
"Question: did you ever hurt yourself to make somebody sorry?
How often do you pretend to be sick?
You ever wanted something very much but never told anybody about it?
Are you such a slug you can't live without a fucking sundae?
You ever made a bit too much fuss over your cuts?
Yes, the cutting will be quite dramatic
If you get the crisscross slit right
And show an exposed piece of bone
Ready for the harvest"
PwBPD struggle with self harm. Not all, but a majority. It is one of the points you can hit in the diagnostic criteria.
"You'll learn about the kitty-cut
Before the privilege of seeing your own blood
I'll let you suck brown-brown and clairil
So you know how papa's so brave
I'll show you the wide-awake nightmare
And now you can buy some fucking fear"
BPD feels like a living nightmare, such trauma happens at a young age and pwBPD can often even start self harming at a very young age.
"So new question: can you:
Spot a person who's like me?
Can you: imagine
A difference between their body and yours?
Can you: imagine
A person who looks like you?
Could you:
Spot a person who looks unlike you?
Can you:
Spot a person who's how you want to be?
Can you:
Imagine a person who you'd never want to be?"
The lack of a stable identity within BPD ties into this.
At the very end it says:
"Cut hands has the solution
We'll feed you to every hungry bird
We'll feed you to every starving animal
And we'll let them eat fat till they're full
And will let them drink blood till they're drunk
As I tell you:
It's helping
While I tell you:
You're doing the right thing"
Even after you've destroyed yourself, your relationships, or your own body, giving up parts of yourself, you'll do it again and again, because you have no idea how to break out of the cycle.
There are parts I missed in this song that I could have annotated, but hopefully this perspective was interesting to read! I'm sure the literal meaning of the song is somewhat different but this is how I saw it.
Feel free to also share some songs that either have similar themes to this or you think could be interpreted in that way! I'd love to read and discuss
We have content warnings in power electronics now?
That said, you have a unique analysis of the track that I would never have considered.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on February 16, 2024, 04:42:17 AMWe have content warnings in power electronics now?
That said, you have a unique analysis of the track that I would never have considered.
Thanks for reading. About the content warnings, I just try to have courtesy, even if it is a power electronics forum.
I think in some regard whether it be the listener or the artist itself, that mental illness can play a bit of a synonymous role to the genre in some ways. I'm not sure if I'm on topic or not, but I've always found mental illness to be a top topic of interest, especially for my own project Void Of Empathy. I put out a tape a little while back called In The Company Of Infirmity and it's about two things and the idea of those two things joined together at my grandma's death. Those things being actual clinical sickness with brain tumor and dying under hospice care and the other being "family" history of mental illness. Her very last words to me in hospice care was "don't you ever get sick of being around sick people?" which is a profound thing to say or question to ask and it could mean absolutely nothing, or it could mean something and I took as aren't you sick of being around "mental" people, as it personally made the most sense to me in that context. Keith Brewer's work in both Taint and Mania comes to mind in this topic too. It seems like to me that Mania is the dangerous result of neglected or unchecked mental illness that grows and festers into something absolutely grotesque.
Quote from: Cranial Blast on February 17, 2024, 09:58:52 PMIt seems like to me that Mania is the dangerous result of neglected or unchecked mental illness that grows and festers into something absolutely grotesque.
hit the nail on the head. Mania always struck as me something more heavy-hitting in terms of meaning than Taint, though I love both projects (RIP Keith). A good example would be the
Isolation Is Lonely Murder (https://manianoise13.bandcamp.com/album/isolation-is-lonely-murder) release from 2007, really hammers that point you made.
It feels very contemporary topic. One could also ask if current age of medicalization of every human characteristic is fruitful?
To me, it often appears that medicalization of society is the problem. Where any unusual quality or emotion is considered sickness, suggests that like opening post says, there is need for potential cure (to become "normal") and there may be self awareness that "disease" is making you do certain things that appears as if you wouldn't function among the rest of population.
I acknowledge seriousness and reality of actual disease, but I also firmly stand in position where assuming conflict free, "normal", and balanced life feel like illusion that got out of hand and to medically adjust entire populations to cope with their feelings of alienation and such... It doesn't inspire me at all to look into individuals "personality disorder" but wonder why is that a "disorder".
Never done therapy, nor medication. Don't feel there is anything wrong (hah). In certain circumstances when professionals have evaluated what is going on, "personality disorder" is term I see mentioned. If in broad sense it means "long-term patterns of behavior and inner experiences that differ significantly from what is expected", one would rather discuss what exactly is that they'd expect? Of course, I may be now even more balanced gentleman than I was as younger. For decade or more, self diagnosis has grown into such levels I tend to grin in disgust. Young chicks dropping lists of diseases like it's their favorite pop songs of current top-40 list. Most often as excuses for whatever they have going on in life.
It really isn't hard to connect the dots between the modern world and the ever emerging spectrum of mental illnesses as an effects of industrialization and post-industrial developement. Alienation, lost sense of purpose, traditions and customs dismantled, atomization, secularization process... So I think that it is an pretty natural topic in the context of noise / industrial, along with other aspects of human condition.
But i'm pretty cautious about tackling this subject matter in contemporary way, where individual's own lived experience is raised into pedestal instead of using it as an vehicle to observe the state of humanity or certain societies or some aspects of them etc.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 19, 2024, 08:29:48 AMIt feels very contemporary topic. One could also ask if current age of medicalization of every human characteristic is fruitful?
To me, it often appears that medicalization of society is the problem. Where any unusual quality or emotion is considered sickness, suggests that like opening post says, there is need for potential cure (to become "normal") and there may be self awareness that "disease" is making you do certain things that appears as if you wouldn't function among the rest of population.
I acknowledge seriousness and reality of actual disease, but I also firmly stand in position where assuming conflict free, "normal", and balanced life feel like illusion that got out of hand and to medically adjust entire populations to cope with their feelings of alienation and such... It doesn't inspire me at all to look into individuals "personality disorder" but wonder why is that a "disorder".
Never done therapy, nor medication. Don't feel there is anything wrong (hah). In certain circumstances when professionals have evaluated what is going on, "personality disorder" is term I see mentioned. If in broad sense it means "long-term patterns of behavior and inner experiences that differ significantly from what is expected", one would rather discuss what exactly is that they'd expect? Of course, I may be now even more balanced gentleman than I was as younger. For decade or more, self diagnosis has grown into such levels I tend to grin in disgust. Young chicks dropping lists of diseases like it's their favorite pop songs of current top-40 list. Most often as excuses for whatever they have going on in life.
Medicalization is precisely the problem indeed. Society's bar is so low to who should be deemed as mentally unfit for a variety of reasons, some of which is to further control people. Also the drug companies make money hand over fist prescribing to anyone that society has deemed as unstable, whether that person is someone going through some temporary and trival mundane grief in life and now has some natural short term depression, or the next Ed Gein with an ever growing psychosis. It's a wide range of things in reality. I've been around enough crazies to know that mental illness is indeed real for some, but nowadays I think we could all be labeled mentally ill, as the bar is just so low haha
Lebensfaden "DESNOS" tape struck me as authentic, although not sure if he actually suffered from CPTSD.
Obviously just contextual interpretation of the sounds since there is are no lyrics and it's doubtful whether materials would be interpreted as dealing with the disorder without artwork/title, but it always felt right.
This is among other tapes great at creating confusing, dissociating atmosphere (for oneself while listening) through sound layers which processing to me was quite progressive for PE at the time.
I have a deep dislike for psychologists, i consider it non-science, 95% are charlatans, and a fraud. Give an unknown passerby 30 bucks to discuss with him, he may help you more. People with normal or deeper mental 'problems' , that life brings with it, turn to psychology for 'solutions' . Well, let me sumarize it for you, to save you money and time : There are no real answers, can you accept this ? No ? Then choose one, whatever, that makes you feel OK to move on or to live with it.
Psychiatry is different. It's needed in many cases.
My two cents:
I was diagnosed with many disorders.
Nothing seems to work perfectly.
Result: I try to stay away from drugs (because they are drugs) as much as i can.
Quote from: Stipsi on February 19, 2024, 08:20:38 PMMy two cents:
I was diagnosed with many disorders.
Nothing seems to work perfectly.
Result: I try to stay away from drugs (because they are drugs) as much as i can.
Exactly, well put and they are simply just that. They are just legalized street drugs by the big pharma cartels and generally don't do anyone any bit of good anyways in the grand scheme. I've been described as having a personality disorder before, but it's like who is defining "disorder"? By who's standard are we measuring this by? Mikko said it best in his post on this topic. Also I believe if people would take it upon themselves to exercise more and try and just be a bit more healthy and disconnect themselves from all mundane social media to, that they'd see they can possibly conqueror any psychological issues that they thought they might of had.
We have gone off-topic here but i disagree about drugs. Rejecting them cause they are ... drugs, big pharma etc. makes no meaning. For the same reasons you could reject all medicines for physical illness. Not wise, eh ? The question is : Do you need them ? Do they do less damage than what they treat ?
Rejecting chemistry and real science when they are needed will lead you nowhere. What psychologists hope for. Endless discussions with someone who could have solved his 'problem' with one pill.
Quote from: Theodore on February 19, 2024, 11:09:53 PMWe have gone off-topic here but i disagree about drugs. Rejecting them cause they are ... drugs, big pharma etc. makes no meaning. For the same reasons you could reject all medicines for physical illness. Not wise, eh ? The question is : Do you need them ? Do they do less damage than what they treat ?
Rejecting chemistry and real science when they are needed will lead you nowhere. What psychologists hope for. Endless discussions with someone who could have solved his 'problem' with one pill.
Yeah I hear what your saying and perhaps some people maybe do need the intervention of medication perhaps, but I think there a lot of people today who don't really need mind altering drugs for the everyday mundane human stresses and anxieties of life. The other day I seen a headline that read something like "how to cope with depression when your football team loses" it's like is there where we're headed now? Those are first world problems, not means to become depressed over and what I'm saying is a lot people could just get over that. I don't believe they need Phizer or some drug company to fix something like that and to me it seems like doctors are quick to throw medications out there no matter how insignificant the signs may be. There are some people though who probably need to be medicated for more severe metal disorders, but I don't think that's the cause for most.
Perhaps whilst it's mentioned, Physical Illness Representation in PE/Noise could be an interesting topic too? I checked out the Discogs page of a respected artist in the scene and was very saddened to hear of recent public news owing to their retirement that had been added to their biography in the last few months. Don't want to name them specifically as it's still obviously a delicate matter, but I really hope he is able to make a full recovery.
Quote from: theotherjohn on February 20, 2024, 03:01:58 AMPerhaps whilst it's mentioned, Physical Illness Representation in PE/Noise could be an interesting topic too? I checked out the Discogs page of a respected artist in the scene and was very saddened to hear of recent public news owing to their retirement that had been added to their biography in the last few months. Don't want to name them specifically as it's still obviously a delicate matter, but I really hope he is able to make a full recovery.
I would suspect anyone with discogs account could see who made the edits and request it to be removed.
In finland, I would think Atrophist is example where project name directly refers to personal condition. It is not like project would revolve around it nor really crave for attention. When you see him live, I guess name suddenly makes sense.
Quote from: Commander15 on February 19, 2024, 01:58:12 PMBut i'm pretty cautious about tackling this subject matter in contemporary way, where individual's own lived experience is raised into pedestal instead of using it as an vehicle to observe the state of humanity or certain societies or some aspects of them etc.
I recent times, I have come across at least three releases, where main part of the artwork of a release is artists in hospital bed. Be it suicidal behavior, medical condition or being victim of violence, still, first thing what I feel is expression.... narcissism? Of course that too, is a mental health condition when going to excessive level. It is curious difference of "artist photo" and "selfie", that is hard to put in words, but seems very obvious when you see it. And noise release that constitutes qualities of "selfie", seems a bit different thing than piece of art.
Artist himself made the edits far as I can see
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 20, 2024, 11:03:39 AMI recent times, I have come across at least three releases, where main part of the artwork of a release is artists in hospital bed. Be it suicidal behavior, medical condition or being victim of violence, still, first thing what I feel is expression.... narcissism? Of course that too, is a mental health condition when going to excessive level. It is curious difference of "artist photo" and "selfie", that is hard to put in words, but seems very obvious when you see it. And noise release that constitutes qualities of "selfie", seems a bit different thing than piece of art.
I certainly agree with you on your notions of narcissism and selfies. Might it be that those examples you gave are examples of social validation phenomenon seeping through from social media to the realm of industrial and noise? That has been all the rage past few years recieving lots of media coverage etc. I feel that it is closely connected with the self-victimization and gaining some kind of social leverage by assuming the position of an victim.
Very nice thread, I have a little confession to make on the topic.
For the third time in my life my mind has been affecting my body and daily life compromising many things and this is surely influencing my own work, not only because of slowing down/stopping activities having people being disappointed at me, but also as a different approach to sound. More painful, more repetitive, etc.
Nothing news.
I don't have a mental disorder, I'm not mentally ill, but not being fully operative due to a temporary condition that previously affected other members in my family as I have been is really rising difficulties.
The next wertham full length has been in the works for over a decade, it's entitled Bodies under siege and started as an external observation of specific issues people have with the unacceptance of their bodies, but it's s slowly turning into a personal experience about really living my own mind and body as an enemy. Nothing new and nothing as extreme as other works, even of "acclaimed" contemporary artists who were obsessed with the same topic from the 60s onwards, but I think it works in PE context. I always tried to observe from the outside the topics I used in concept, often impersonating the characters using the "I/Me" rather than the "them/they" (no non-binary pun intended). Now this detachment I always had is becoming difficult to use.
Atrax Morgue, SPK, Stabat Mors and many otherse went deep in these topics in very sensitive way.
Quote from: tiny_tove on February 20, 2024, 03:06:34 PMVery nice thread, I have a little confession to make on the topic.
For the third time in my life my mind has been affecting my body and daily life compromising many things and this is surely influencing my own work, not only because of slowing down/stopping activities having people being disappointed at me, but also as a different approach to sound. More painful, more repetitive, etc.
Nothing news.
I don't have a mental disorder, I'm not mentally ill, but not being fully operative due to a temporary condition that previously affected other members in my family as I have been is really rising difficulties.
The next wertham full length has been in the works for over a decade, it's entitled Bodies under siege and started as an external observation of specific issues people have with the unacceptance of their bodies, but it's s slowly turning into a personal experience about really living my own mind and body as an enemy. Nothing new and nothing as extreme as other works, even of "acclaimed" contemporary artists who were obsessed with the same topic from the 60s onwards, but I think it works in PE context. I always tried to observe from the outside the topics I used in concept, often impersonating the characters using the "I/Me" rather than the "them/they" (no non-binary pun intended). Now this detachment I always had is becoming difficult to use.
Atrax Morgue, SPK, Stabat Mors and many otherse went deep in these topics in very sensitive way.
One's own body as an enemy, or other body horror of a sort, could be a fruitful theme. I've toyed with an idea of doing some multiple sclerosis -themed art as i've had MS for about 10 years, but in the end it felt a bit too... Self-centered and uninteresting, at least to me. I think that long-term illnesses in general are good themes for noise / industrial, nothing wrong with them at all.
Quote from: Commander15 on February 20, 2024, 12:20:50 PMQuote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 20, 2024, 11:03:39 AMI recent times, I have come across at least three releases, where main part of the artwork of a release is artists in hospital bed. Be it suicidal behavior, medical condition or being victim of violence, still, first thing what I feel is expression.... narcissism? Of course that too, is a mental health condition when going to excessive level. It is curious difference of "artist photo" and "selfie", that is hard to put in words, but seems very obvious when you see it. And noise release that constitutes qualities of "selfie", seems a bit different thing than piece of art.
I certainly agree with you on your notions of narcissism and selfies. Might it be that those examples you gave are examples of social validation phenomenon seeping through from social media to the realm of industrial and noise? That has been all the rage past few years recieving lots of media coverage etc. I feel that it is closely connected with the self-victimization and gaining some kind of social leverage by assuming the position of an victim.
It's interesting that this comes up---there is a guy I have connected with over social media who does death industrial, but he seems to spend a lot more time posting selfies on Facebook then doing music. I find it sort of off-putting, but then I remember that Atrax Morgue took a lot of pictures of himself too. Still, they feel different. I'm not entirely certain if I am fair in being fine with one but not the other, thought.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on February 20, 2024, 05:48:30 PMI find it sort of off-putting, but then I remember that Atrax Morgue took a lot of pictures of himself too. Still, they feel different. I'm not entirely certain if I am fair in being fine with one but not the other, thought.
Marco did a lot more than just take photos of himself, though. He established his own specific sound with AM. He put out a billion releases, of his own and others' work, including many collaborations. He established himself in the scene and is rightly respected today. I don't know the other chap you're referring to, but putting pictures of yourself on FB is not in the same league as Marco's work.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 21, 2024, 04:58:16 AMQuote from: Balor/SS1535 on February 20, 2024, 05:48:30 PMI find it sort of off-putting, but then I remember that Atrax Morgue took a lot of pictures of himself too. Still, they feel different. I'm not entirely certain if I am fair in being fine with one but not the other, thought.
Marco did a lot more than just take photos of himself, though. He established his own specific sound with AM. He put out a billion releases, of his own and others' work, including many collaborations. He established himself in the scene and is rightly respected today. I don't know the other chap you're referring to, but putting pictures of yourself on FB is not in the same league as Marco's work.
I think the social media phenomenon of this narcissistic self preservation of every trivial self life moment and "selfie" is a bit of a disorder in it's own right. Why would anyone on earth want to curate any and every stupid moment of their time spent on this planet and who is going to look back at it when they are dust to dust to even grasp an understanding of it in any true meaningful understanding anyways? I cannot for the life of me relate to this idea. I remember back in the Myspace days and that was like a precursor for the almighty Facebook to become. I think some thought this sucked and abandoned ship and others stayed with it and it's just another more modern annoying continuation of that same self preservation through mundane moments of life that are really not so special. It's NOT like a picture or random viewed photograph. A picture is worth a thousand words, a social media/Instagram/FB picture is a picture of you writing about your own stupid picture giving it a specific commentary of exactly what it's "all about" or what you experienced and how a bunch of other likeminded narcissistic type can also chime in how they can relate with their own life experience related to it by sending a slew of photos of the same shit. I dunno...maybe I'm a bit callous and cold towards social media, but I see it as the biggest waste of human life/time in the entirety of mankind. Also I think it leads people to becoming lesser and more insecure human beings, despite their falsified grandstanding narcissism as they are so consumed by this "one up" mentality. Social media in my opinion is ridden in toxicity to the highest degree and I'm humbly awaiting the day when social media will be remembered like smoking in a resturant, smoking or no smoking? Those days of the past are becoming like a blip in memory, at least for most of us living in America, as if those days never even existed, that's where I hope social media will reside, in faint memory of the past.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 21, 2024, 04:58:16 AMQuote from: Balor/SS1535 on February 20, 2024, 05:48:30 PMI find it sort of off-putting, but then I remember that Atrax Morgue took a lot of pictures of himself too. Still, they feel different. I'm not entirely certain if I am fair in being fine with one but not the other, thought.
Marco did a lot more than just take photos of himself, though. He established his own specific sound with AM. He put out a billion releases, of his own and others' work, including many collaborations. He established himself in the scene and is rightly respected today. I don't know the other chap you're referring to, but putting pictures of yourself on FB is not in the same league as Marco's work.
Well yes, that is obviously true. Regardless of circumstances, I still find the tendency to take pictures of yourself strange---but he can be forgiven!
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 21, 2024, 04:58:16 AMQuote from: Balor/SS1535 on February 20, 2024, 05:48:30 PMI find it sort of off-putting, but then I remember that Atrax Morgue took a lot of pictures of himself too. Still, they feel different. I'm not entirely certain if I am fair in being fine with one but not the other, thought.
Marco did a lot more than just take photos of himself, though. He established his own specific sound with AM. He put out a billion releases, of his own and others' work, including many collaborations. He established himself in the scene and is rightly respected today. I don't know the other chap you're referring to, but putting pictures of yourself on FB is not in the same league as Marco's work.
Photos and portraits with other people and self-portraits were 100% as important as his sound. What other express with complex texts and manifesto he did with his body and aestetic.
I can't remember if he even had a social profile.
Quote from: tiny_tove on February 21, 2024, 03:15:58 PMQuote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 21, 2024, 04:58:16 AMQuote from: Balor/SS1535 on February 20, 2024, 05:48:30 PMI find it sort of off-putting, but then I remember that Atrax Morgue took a lot of pictures of himself too. Still, they feel different. I'm not entirely certain if I am fair in being fine with one but not the other, thought.
Marco did a lot more than just take photos of himself, though. He established his own specific sound with AM. He put out a billion releases, of his own and others' work, including many collaborations. He established himself in the scene and is rightly respected today. I don't know the other chap you're referring to, but putting pictures of yourself on FB is not in the same league as Marco's work.
Photos and portraits with other people and self-portraits were 100% as important as his sound. What other express with complex texts and manifesto he did with his body and aestetic.
I can't remember if he even had a social profile.
He really is very much like Mishima (who also did many self-portraits). I think the other difference between Marco and the other guy that I mention, is the sheer oversaturation of images now. If you are in contact with letters or over early email with some guy across the world/country doing something like Atrax Morgue did, there is a compelling reason to want to share who you are and/or see who you are interacting with. Now, however, trying to do what might have been appropriate/interesting then can easily slide into unwarranted self-aggrandizing (at best) or show that you are just another social media attention-seeker (the most common, and likely worst, option).
Wasn't there an Atrax Morgue Myspace page? I could have sworn I came across it before, but it might have been a fan-made thing.
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on February 21, 2024, 05:27:27 PM[
Wasn't there an Atrax Morgue Myspace page? I could have sworn I came across it before, but it might have been a fan-made thing.
I can't really remember. I saw several social pages popping up after his death, but can't really recall.
BTW you got my point with the Mishima connection.
Quote from: tiny_tove on February 21, 2024, 06:01:36 PMQuote from: Balor/SS1535 on February 21, 2024, 05:27:27 PM[
Wasn't there an Atrax Morgue Myspace page? I could have sworn I came across it before, but it might have been a fan-made thing.
BTW you got my point with the Mishima connection.
That's good. Hopefully I'm not coming across obstinate or anything---I hold all of Marco's work in the highest esteem. My questioning with the pictures is sort of an "after the fact" thing of looking at this guy who is obviously trying very hard to be like Atrax Morgue, but obviously falling short.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 19, 2024, 08:29:48 AM. Most often as excuses for whatever they have going on in life.
how many non autistic people claim to be?
how many lazy people claim to simply be affected by attention deficit disorder?
how many attention-seeking masochists claim to be into pathological self-harm?
how many self-proclaim to be OCD without never being tested by the real thing?
how many confuse temporary social-anxiety (especially post lockdown) with being unable to get out of your shell/travel/be among people for the real thing?
I've knownn and met people with these issues long before social media thing, before people claimed mental health as a trend on social status and they are completely in a different planet that self-diagnosed gits.
It really pisses me off using alleged mental health issues as a badge of honor and a justification without really being suffering of that. Sure there are several levels of all these issues, and many individuals are functional and semi-functional in society (as said I'm having issues myself at the moment, but I go to work, do my shopping, and care about my agin/ill parents), but I see this fake medicalisation of society both as an excuse and as a need of being part of a weird alternative status/society, necessarry to have a minority status.
The fakes don't behave like the true thing, they simply identify in a caricature of that.
Quote from: tiny_tove on February 22, 2024, 11:02:03 AMQuote from: FreakAnimalFinland on February 19, 2024, 08:29:48 AM. Most often as excuses for whatever they have going on in life.
how many non autistic people claim to be?
I've knownn and met people with these issues long before social media thing, before people claimed mental health as a trend on social status and they are completely in a different planet that self-diagnosed gits.
It really pisses me off using alleged mental health issues as a badge of honor and a justification without really being suffering of that.
The fakes don't behave like the true thing, they simply identify in a caricature of that.
Thank you very much for that statement.
If someone is truly affected by mental health problems, it's no fun. It's suffering. It destroys.
Quote from: tiny_tove on February 21, 2024, 03:15:58 PMPhotos and portraits with other people and self-portraits were 100% as important as his sound. What other express with complex texts and manifesto he did with his body and aestetic.
I know. I was making the point that that wasn't all he did. But there's also a qualitative difference between what he did with his photographs and someone just doing "a selfy", so even if it was all he did, there wouldn't be much of a comparison.
But Marco's work overall also raises a bit of a question about mental health. Here was a chap absolutely obsessed with Death, however he imagined it, to the point where he consciously created his own. I don't know if he ever did get any kind of diagnosis but I bet there'd be mental health experts (and a lot of amateurs) who'd say that he had issues, compared with whatever normal's supposed to be.
If it's right that there are people who are claiming to have certain mental illnesses but don't really (and I have no idea how many such people there are, not sure how you'd measure something like that), what about people who probably are on the extreme end of the spectrum but are never diagnosed and are going about whatever their business is? And is it possible there are such people in Industrial/Noise? Bit of a loaded question I suppose but I thought it worth asking.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 23, 2024, 11:45:48 AMAnd is it possible there are such people in Industrial/Noise? Bit of a loaded question I suppose but I thought it worth asking.
IN Italy claiming to be sick has been a trend for some time, but most of these people are completely ok with their lives,
Quote from: tiny_tove on February 24, 2024, 04:00:31 PMIN Italy claiming to be sick has been a trend for some time, but most of these people are completely ok with their lives,
I meant the other thing, people who do have psychological problems but are never diagnosed and don't even think they have problems. I was wondering if there were such people in Industrial/Noise.
I think it would be quite common for people who go through their lives with probably treatable issues but never get around to being diagnosed, for all sorts of reasons. The way a lot of people behave, especially online, strikes me that there's a lot of mental illness around that isn't being recognised.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 24, 2024, 11:41:55 PMQuote from: tiny_tove on February 24, 2024, 04:00:31 PMIN Italy claiming to be sick has been a trend for some time, but most of these people are completely ok with their lives,
I meant the other thing, people who do have psychological problems but are never diagnosed and don't even think they have problems. I was wondering if there were such people in Industrial/Noise.
I think it would be quite common for people who go through their lives with probably treatable issues but never get around to being diagnosed, for all sorts of reasons. The way a lot of people behave, especially online, strikes me that there's a lot of mental illness around that isn't being recognised.
I think it's beneficial and especially in America to not get diagnosed with anything by any of these doctors and fly under the radar if need be for two reasons. One of which reason I don't think there is really much in the way of real help to begin with and second of all, once somebody has let someone else diagnose them and give them a named diagnosis so to speak that now you've opened the flood gates to loads of legal hindrance and surveillance. I think those who have a "diagnosis" or medical history in this country in perticular, will find it difficult to achieve the right to buy guns, the right to achieve custody, etc. I think it's a bit of a bear trap in a way and if those want to play that game, their definitely submitting themselves to further headaches with the ever growing bullshit laws of the land.
Quote from: Cranial Blast on February 25, 2024, 02:04:02 AMOne of which reason I don't think there is really much in the way of real help to begin with and second of all, once somebody has let someone else diagnose them and give them a named diagnosis so to speak that now you've opened the flood gates to loads of legal hindrance and surveillance.
Yes, I definitely understand that, I've heard that in the US it can be a minefield of legally sanctioned imposition. I'd keep my head down too if I was living in a society like that. Makes me wonder if there are many Americans playing the self-diagnosis-for-attention game Marco is talking about, that happens in Italy. I wouldn't be surprised - we all live in an attention economy online, and attention is the currency.
Some years ago a mate of mine made a remark that stayed with me, which was to the effect that he thought there was a lot of undiagnosed mental illness about, and it's made me think ever since. Impossible for me to actually know, of course, but it still intrigues me. For example, the old narcissist/sociopath-in-high-places issue, where people who are just mentally driven to dominate others end up in positions of authority and power. Or how psychological issues can manifest in unhealthy relationships, for another example.
QuoteSome years ago a mate of mine made a remark that stayed with me, which was to the effect that he thought there was a lot of undiagnosed mental illness about, and it's made me think ever since. Impossible for me to actually know, of course, but it still intrigues me.
I also think the same. There are way more people with mental illness and personality disorders that we actually think. They are usually what is called "egosyntonic", they feel good with who they are and will never accept there is some problem with them. Many are very high functioning in aspects of public life but utterly destructive in the private matters.
Also, it's a positive adaptation to lack empathy and be amoral in societies which are fucked up in many ways and most of it's members act like mentally ill.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 25, 2024, 03:48:26 AMQuote from: Cranial Blast on February 25, 2024, 02:04:02 AMOne of which reason I don't think there is really much in the way of real help to begin with and second of all, once somebody has let someone else diagnose them and give them a named diagnosis so to speak that now you've opened the flood gates to loads of legal hindrance and surveillance.
Yes, I definitely understand that, I've heard that in the US it can be a minefield of legally sanctioned imposition. I'd keep my head down too if I was living in a society like that. Makes me wonder if there are many Americans playing the self-diagnosis-for-attention game Marco is talking about, that happens in Italy. I wouldn't be surprised - we all live in an attention economy online, and attention is the currency.
Some years ago a mate of mine made a remark that stayed with me, which was to the effect that he thought there was a lot of undiagnosed mental illness about, and it's made me think ever since. Impossible for me to actually know, of course, but it still intrigues me. For example, the old narcissist/sociopath-in-high-places issue, where people who are just mentally driven to dominate others end up in positions of authority and power. Or how psychological issues can manifest in unhealthy relationships, for another example.
One thing I want to underline, I'm happy there is more talking about mental health issues on media/social, but I get very pissed when it's used as a badge of honor by posers. I had a colleague like this, she was a resentful person who was extremely envious of other girls in the office. She had some issues but started to use that as a shield to not do what she didn't want to and (try) to put guilt on the company while we all have been very patient to her being simply a weirdo, not used to work in a professional environment where also manager are friendly but very demanding.
Quote from: tiny_tove on February 25, 2024, 07:57:49 PMOne thing I want to underline, I'm happy there is more talking about mental health issues on media/social, but I get very pissed when it's used as a badge of honor by posers.
Sure, and I don't think anyone is denying that that happens. It's even worse when it's used as a badge of honour by people who actually do have issues. For example, I know a lot of people in the antinatalist scene are basically emotional fuck-ups who use AN as a kind of excuse to be emotional fuck-ups, kind of glorifying their misery without admitting that's what they're doing, and using it to basically act like they're better than everyone else in the world. In that, they're not different from a lot of other fringe identities that are used to cover up personal issues and short comings, like incels and dickheads like that. Whole scenes filled with people who probably should be speaking to therapists and taking medication who are instead declaiming they've got "the Truth" about everything simply because they're fucked up.
But there's also issues of people actually denying certain mental problems all together. For example, trans activists who deny that gender dysphoria even exists. Apparently, real psychological confusion over one's sex isn't real, the delusion of what sex they are is real. I understand that's caused a lot of havoc for some people who have transitioned and then regretted it later.
As far as personal anecdotes go, I used to work with a young chap who very definitely had issues, but also very definitely used those issues to basically do as little work as possible, and in a shoddy way. Used to drive me fucking crazy, I had to carry the cunt every shift. He did end up quitting, fortunately, after I had a little chat with him about how he'd been in the job for a year and hadn't improved a jot, but I don't want to take credit for it. I'm just glad he did leave.
As far as it relates to Industrial/Noise - well, it should be obvious that there's people in these scenes as well who are a little less than "normal". Although I've personally heard of much less psychological drama from individuals on this forum than a lot of other online places where fringe weirdos congregate. Perhaps it's true that venting your frustrations through creative means is still a lot healthier than only through social media. Perhaps doctors, psychiatrists, etc, should start prescribing a healthy dose of Power Electronics to sufferers.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 26, 2024, 11:36:33 AMQuote from: tiny_tove on February 25, 2024, 07:57:49 PMOne thing I want to underline, I'm happy there is more talking about mental health issues on media/social, but I get very pissed when it's used as a badge of honor by posers.
Sure, and I don't think anyone is denying that that happens. It's even worse when it's used as a badge of honour by people who actually do have issues.
I had discussion with "antinatalist" fun thing they all tend to complain about other minorities "breeding like rats" or they cry about "injustice to kids". but i'm getting out of scope.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on February 26, 2024, 11:36:33 AMPerhaps doctors, psychiatrists, etc, should start prescribing a healthy dose of Power Electronics to sufferers.
"This one's dedicated to Chuck Traynor"- Dr Wm Bennet
Mental illness is everywhere.
saying youre afflicted with something is a good way to alleviate white guilt. blew my mind how many of these kooks on say, fb, be it a noise oriented group or some other music that lays on the outskirts, or a fan group for something like Twin Peaks - 90% of them end up saying theyve got a minimum of 4 debilitating conditions.
Quote from: PuddysJacket on March 10, 2024, 07:08:26 PMsaying youre afflicted with something is a good way to alleviate white guilt
I agree with this. It seems its nowadays a way to get yourself in to a state of "marginalized people". I feel with modern opression olympics type of mindset its a way to get some sort of authority in internet spaces.
totally agree. as said I'm having issues and have been having for the past two years, but I can't wait is over and I don't want to be identified with the condition(s) not due to shame or guilt but simply because it sucks and luckily is temporary and not something I wear as a badge of pride. I'd prefer it was not there and could be 100% functional and not 70% ah ah
I'm very poissed at those people.
Perttu Häkkinen: "Is there anything at all that all of your fans have in common?"
Markkula (immediately, without hesitation): "Mental health problems."
Seriously though, as we age, we all develop issues here and there. It's part and parcel of being human. Everything affects everything else, so untreated problems eventually lead to other problems.
There's nothing wrong with needing help or asking for it, but like many others have already said, there's something repellent about people making their (self-)diagnoses their entire personal identity. Can we coin the term "toxic infantilism" to describe that type of behaviour?
As mentioned before here, I indeed have a condition that restricts my mobility and physical abilities pretty severely. While it's no fun, I work with what I have, because what else can you do. Everything has their issues, and this is mine. I also try to remember that it could have been much worse, it was literally a matter of millimetres that areas dealing with things like memory and cognitive function might have been damaged.
Only tangentially relevant to this thread, but I've found that reading memoirs of retired doctors, surgeons, psychiatrists etc. helps to put things in perspective. I'm not talking about just my own issue, but this whole "human condition" palaver. If you're interested, check out such writers as Henry Marsh, Stephen Westaby, Seamus O'Mahony and Theodore Dalrymple.
(Dalrymple writes about many other topics too, but none of it is particularly interesting in comparison to his actual ara of expertise, which is psychiatry)
I would see Markkula's comments less as medical comment, and rather... hmm.. "underground comment". hah. When you look at the history of underground cultures, it's very often been rebellious, frustrated, FTW, No Future!, morally questionable behavior, and so on. All in all, something that indicates not fitting in to system, but some sort of resistance. It is just that I do not think "good mental health" standard, is that psychotic delusional reality that society often offers.
Therefore I see Markkula blurting out "mental health problem" more as indication that people tend to deviate from supposedly virtuous qualities presented in mainstream society.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 12, 2024, 08:14:22 AMI would see Markkula's comments less as medical comment, and rather... hmm.. "underground comment". hah. When you look at the history of underground cultures, it's very often been rebellious, frustrated, FTW, No Future!, morally questionable behavior, and so on. All in all, something that indicates not fitting in to system, but some sort of resistance. It is just that I do not think "good mental health" standard, is that psychotic delusional reality that society often offers.
Therefore I see Markkula blurting out "mental health problem" more as indication that people tend to deviate from supposedly virtuous qualities presented in mainstream society.
I tend to think that this is the "proper" interpretation of Pasi's statement. There are lots of anti-systemic currents, customs, way of thought and sentiments present in noise / PE / industrial that could be seen as unproductive, futile, crazy, mentally ill and even "dangerous" by society's and fully socialized people's standards.
Yes, of course. And I seem to recall Markkula himself elaborating on his answer, more or less to that effect. Too bad it seems to not be available online any longer.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 12, 2024, 08:14:22 AMI would see Markkula's comments less as medical comment, and rather... hmm.. "underground comment". hah. When you look at the history of underground cultures, it's very often been rebellious, frustrated, FTW, No Future!, morally questionable behavior, and so on. All in all, something that indicates not fitting in to system, but some sort of resistance. It is just that I do not think "good mental health" standard, is that psychotic delusional reality that society often offers.
Therefore I see Markkula blurting out "mental health problem" more as indication that people tend to deviate from supposedly virtuous qualities presented in mainstream society.
this is the way
Quote from: Atrophist on March 12, 2024, 03:46:06 PMYes, of course. And I seem to recall Markkula himself elaborating on his answer, more or less to that effect. Too bad it seems to not be available online any longer.
this not being online anymore, for example, just shows to me that we need to keep on pissing on this fucked society. i actually trust that the real fuck you attitude will never die, but never the less, it should be kept alive
Quote from: Atrophist on March 12, 2024, 03:46:06 PMYes, of course. And I seem to recall Markkula himself elaborating on his answer, more or less to that effect. Too bad it seems to not be available online any longer.
https://areena.yle.fi/podcastit/1-3711476
edit: Ah it wasn't about this then? But here's a reminder for the finnish speaking folks if someone hasn't listened to it hehe.
I suppose talk was about video with english subtitles that got removed when account of uploader got deleted?
In recent news quite interesting research:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/sjop.13018
Intent was to study Construction and validation of a scale for assessing critical social justice attitudes, so in short media says "wokeness" of people.
Done in university of Turku, Finland. There is a lot of data in research, but the interesting points include for example that study that questions the differences of female and male, there is significant difference between them found in the data. Another amusing point being that critical social justice attitudes are in correlation with depression and anxiety. And that same level of correlation exists with leftism.
I doubt they can establish any hard data about cause & effect. One could assume that in world like this, of course you are bound to be growingly depressed. Yet world does appear to be going down to drain also from "right wing perspective", yet depression and anxiety doesn't seem to effect in same way?
It would be also curious to see how in underground, the depression or anxiety appears to have different shapes, not only in artistic expression, but within the "scenes".
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 19, 2024, 09:09:03 AMIn recent news quite interesting research:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/sjop.13018
Intent was to study Construction and validation of a scale for assessing critical social justice attitudes, so in short media says "wokeness" of people.
Done in university of Turku, Finland. There is a lot of data in research, but the interesting points include for example that study that questions the differences of female and male, there is significant difference between them found in the data. Another amusing point being that critical social justice attitudes are in correlation with depression and anxiety. And that same level of correlation exists with leftism.
I doubt they can establish any hard data about cause & effect. One could assume that in world like this, of course you are bound to be growingly depressed. Yet world does appear to be going down to drain also from "right wing perspective", yet depression and anxiety doesn't seem to effect in same way?
It would be also curious to see how in underground, the depression or anxiety appears to have different shapes, not only in artistic expression, but within the "scenes".
very interesting.
some scenes are ideologically depressed: goth, emo, etc. It's part of the label
other scenes drag many depressed people. words and words have been written about the cathartic use of violent sounds to battle that, feel alive, etc. Most my friends in subcultures had that and felt that, as well as using scenes to replace disfunctional / absent families - and leaving them once the same patterns were repeated in such scenes or perceived as such by the person. will check this study, really up my alley.
Having being diagnosed with two different "mental illnesses" within the past year, I can happily say that I don't think mental illness exists/is a real thing.
Prolonged stress from having to live in a toilet society? Yes.
Are people mentally ill for hating the garbage landscape they have to inherit now? Or are they the sane ones?
I mean, that is what causes mental illness. Exposure to conditions that make you mentally ill.
Quote from: Atrophist on June 11, 2024, 10:39:43 AMI mean, that is what causes mental illness. Exposure to conditions that make you mentally ill.
I just mean in the sense that psychiatrists/medications can't "fix" it at all. Only radical change, either in the Self or in society.
Quote from: VORACLE on June 11, 2024, 07:36:24 PMQuote from: Atrophist on June 11, 2024, 10:39:43 AMI mean, that is what causes mental illness. Exposure to conditions that make you mentally ill.
I just mean in the sense that psychiatrists/medications can't "fix" it at all. Only radical change, either in the Self or in society.
Radical change in self is the biggest challenge, but in the end and grand scheme proves the best results indeed, that's what I believe. I think if society wasn't so fucked, I think that would help in ending some of the mental illness out there. American society seems to be the worst in regards to keeping mental illness alive and well between our stupid media run politics, deep state career politicians, and this notion to keep beating a dead horse and expecting new results and not only on that topic, but more specifically with that fact that our society puts way more emphasis on "work" as if that is the only meaning we have to live for, granite today's younger generation is starting to take critical notice of the failures of that line of thinking, but now with inflation so high it's leveling the playing field, so you'll have to work more just to have less now. This idea in America that we just need to keep working and working hard every day I think is leading to some forms of mental illness. Often times I get this same line of shit from the older people, why don't you take on more hours while you got em! Why don't you invest!? Don't you want to get ahead! GET AHEAD!!...those two words "get ahead" have pissed me off my whole life, get ahead of what? Cheating my own death, so I can live to be 90?! Getting ahead money so I can buy more cheap bullshit furniture from an IKEA store? This idea of preserving ourselves with a lifetime of work to where we can finally rest with a piss bag strapped to our legs in our 90s and then die is utterly absurd and it's this kind of societal thinking that I think leads to obvious mental illness, because wanting to live into your 90s or live for some next mass made material possession in my opinion is mental illness. America and I don't know about the rest of the world, but it leads everyone subconsciously into this stupid way of thinking that in it in itself is harmful to human spirit.