Special Interest

Out of nothing but curiosity, decided to put volunteer age survey. all you need to do is click to age group you belong to. Your name or any info won't appear anywhere, unless you happen to post message about it.

It's simply about discussions thats been around for years, about many subcultures growing up, with no new blood etc. And where "youth cultures" actually have turned into subcultures consisting most of all older men. How is this relevant? We'll see, but naturally simplicity of poll doesn't take specific countries into question nor what type of people tend to actively be interested to take part of something like this. Scientific accuracy probably not so high..

Interesting comment.  I was talking with someone yesterday about something Anthony Bourdain said about the subculture of food service, and the other person posed the idea that there might not be any subcultures anymore because of the internet.  It was a purposely outlandish comment, but what they were getting at is you can almost instantly dig into anything any hobby, profession, fetish, etc.  You don't have to actively experience it for yourself or do any legwork in finding information about it.  The information on a lot of things has always been out there to be found, but in doing so, that search had a greater likelihood to form connexions to these pursuits.  Our conversation was cut short, but I continue to find the idea a pretty interesting one.

Yeah, well, I guess it's up to how define "subculture". If its just group which differentiates them from the larger culture to which they belong - I guess still remains to be considered how they differentiate? Simply based on taste of sound? Like you mentioned, if the method of consumption, the means of involvement and all that remains exactly same as for popular culture - is it really subculture?
Lets say there is someone who listens music clips from youtube. Fact that he listens Rolling Stones or Merzbow, how much does that mean if this is the end of his "cultural involvement"?
Finland is country where music culture is quite different from many other countries. Here subcultures get much bigger value than in some bigger countries. Heavy metal bands are not something what exists as minor success, but is perhaps the biggest music industry. Where punk peaked in such popular way it "tainted" pretty much entire generation. And so on.. But in that sense, it's hardly a sign of "subculture" to wear band shirt, be bald, have tattoos, or be whatever. It's all popularized as part of regular mainstream.

Yesterday I was watching piece of UK street magic guy and he appeared in backroom on popular R&B singer and next thing you see one of the crew members with Mayhem t-shirt. Few weeks ago I caught few minutes of some finnish lame reality TV or whatever show. Why? Because walking across the room with TV screen, in corner of my eye I register Graveland logo. And why would it appear on primetime tv? Well, two girls on that show had Graveland and Master's Hammer shirts. I was told not so long ago one of the C.S.I. tv series band Graveland was mentioned as part of story of involving east european extremism, hah!

But most certainly, even if subcultures bleed into mainstream, to some extent, putting out vinyl records, tapes or perhaps now even CD's, sets you apart from mainstream popular culture. However, if popular culture is basically vast variety of almost equal sized subcultures co-existing - then all of them could be seen as part of popular culture?

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2012, 11:48:29 AM
in corner of my eye I register Graveland logo. And why would it appear on primetime tv? Well, two girls on that show had Graveland and Master's Hammer shirts. I was told not so long ago one of the C.S.I. tv series band Graveland was mentioned as part of story of involving east european extremism, hah!

Wow, these pussys must be from Poland... Anyway, black metal and hip hop are subcultures which remain still active, at least in Poland. Hip hop is more mainstream, but there is dark underground which bans and rejects any connections with pop culture.

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 11, 2012, 11:58:22 AM
dark underground which bans and rejects any connections with pop culture.

Does this automatically make them "subcultural"?

Quote from: bogskaggmannen on June 11, 2012, 02:35:26 PM
Does this automatically make them "subcultural"?

It depends on, but why not? Being subcultural isn't for me any value though I remember time when in my parents little town were many punks, metals or skinheads. Nowadays this is rare phenomenon, unfortunately.

Voted 22-25, though approaching the upper limit of it (turning 25½ next month).

Noise differs from punk/black metal/skinhead/etc. subculture in that there is no visual stereotype of a "noise person" you can recognize with any certainty from across the street.  Is this because noise people are less interested in finding each other?

it is interesting to think that people like Philip Best started to rip it at the age of 15. and releasing stuff that is now concidered classic material? I have never heard of anyone that young noise artist doing so called high quality stuff. i guess most of the established noise/pe fellows are 30+ nowdays, or +40.

Quote from: Brad on June 11, 2012, 03:01:21 PM
Voted 22-25, though approaching the upper limit of it (turning 25½ next month).

Sadly, it seems that I am one of the oldest on this forum...at least in this moment... I hope more elder people will take part in this action...

Quote from: Brad on June 11, 2012, 03:01:21 PM
Noise differs from punk/black metal/skinhead/etc. subculture in that there is no visual stereotype of a "noise person" you can recognize with any certainty from across the street.  Is this because noise people are less interested in finding each other?

Usually "noise person" from Japan looks like hippie with colourful cloths. In Europe, bald-headed guys in black uniforms, or military clothes. Once I saw photos from noise festival in Brazil, there were mainly guys who looked like punks. I guess that reason is youth why noise/industrial isn't subculture.

Clicked 26-29, because of being 26 next month.

almost 39, been involved (and still am) involved in several forms of underground
no contempt to those who wants to fit in groups. I think it is normal and -most of the time healthy- at a certain age to attempt to conform in micro-environments, ad may help to grow a lot once you get out and build your own independent thought.

Quotethere is no visual stereotype of a "noise person" you can recognize with any certainty from across the street.  Is this because noise people are less interested in finding each other?

I think one of the reasons might be because noise doesn't have a core ideology/message that for example metal has (although of course there's no single one within metal). Someone into, say, black metal might want to look scary and grim because that's the atmosphere the genre aims for. In noise (and I'm not including PE in this case) the focus is usually only on the music which is more abstract and doesn't have any lyrics or extreme grimness about it, so there's nothing to express with your appearance. Or at least there's nothing that could be expressed that way.
Also, I think (again to use metal as an example) metal is a very social scene: it's important to go to gigs together for example, and there's probably a satisfying sense of belonging to a well-defined group that clearly differs from non-group members. The looks are part of this. I clearly remember reading an interview on some website with a metal fan about what he likes about metal and he said what he likes most is getting together with friends for gigs and then talking about the concert afterwards while having drinks at a pub. The way he put it made it clear that socializing was at least as important to him as the music, if not more. I guess since there are way less noise fans and noise gigs than metal ones, this kind of attitude would be pretty hard for a noisehead to follow. Also, maybe some are less social (at least I for one don't like going anywhere where there's even a small group of people cause there's bound to be people in one way or another spoiling my having a good time to a smaller or bigger extent -- of course, one has to accept this and can't live like a hermit...).

Turned 28 in May.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2012, 10:11:54 AM
And where "youth cultures" actually have turned into subcultures consisting most of all older men. How is this relevant?

It does feel like this specific genre is mad up of larger number of older people and less youth's than most sub-cultures and genres. I don't think I have ever meet a teenager who is into Industrial or Noise (which is a good thing in my opinion) and a small number of > 21 year olds. I think it is going to be humorous to see in 40 years or so a bunch of 60-80 year old men at retirement homes will be listening to Manthausen Orchestra or Bizarre Uproar or some Black Metal bands or whatever you're into. A lot of old withered tattoo's sliding off their wrinkled bodies, etc.

And for the record, nearly 28 here too.

Quote from: RyanWreck on June 11, 2012, 07:02:23 PM
I don't think I have ever meet a teenager who is into Industrial or Noise (which is a good thing in my opinion) and a small number of > 21 year olds.

Why is this a good thing? Purely out of interest. I listened to plenty of industrial and noise when i was a teenager (TG/Godflesh/Whitehouse/Ramleh/etc) and still do. I just turned 22.

36. Founded noise etc when i was 16.

Quote from: RyanWreck on June 11, 2012, 07:02:23 PM
I don't think I have ever meet a teenager who is into Industrial or Noise (which is a good thing in my opinion) and a small number of > 21 year olds.

I've met a few over the last few years and now they're some of the most influential, serious and active people in the UK noise/PE scene so maybe you shouldn't make that kind of assumption. Plus most of the 'classic' acts we all go on about here started as teenagers or early 20s...

I also think this spans from where you are from, it is much easier to be exposed to genres of music when you live in a big city, or go to school near a big city where many kids are exposed to different genres. This makes your age when you found these genres much lower imo. Not all but most people that are in their late teens and early 20's today had an easier experience finding these subcultures with the help of the internet. Personally I live in the country, 1 hour away from city, 3 hours away from major city and it was a lot harder for me to find stuff and also be exposed to certain things when i was younger. I was a teenager in the early 90's near the birth of the internet which made it difficult for me to find anything out of the ordinary besides Skinny Puppy, Coil, and sometimes Merzbow, Death In June, & Nurse With Wound.

I don't think age is an issue.  Generations are likely bigger factors, especially recent ones because of how information is handled.

People from large metropolitan areas, or areas of condensed population (thinking of NY, MA, MD, NJ), really don't have any idea how less populated areas function.  How slowly change and trends occur or drag behind is lost on them.  The variable of exposure might seem like common sense, but it acts in unusual, not necessarily obvious ways with difficult results.  It isn't being exposed or not being exposed.  Socialization isn't that simple.

Yo! Oldest fucker here ... who'd have thought.

Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 11, 2012, 08:31:52 PM
People from large metropolitan areas, or areas of condensed population (thinking of NY, MA, MD, NJ), really don't have any idea how less populated areas function.  How slowly change and trends occur or drag behind is lost on them.

This is something what I have been thinking for years, and quite a lot. In case of Finnish noise, there certainly are bands from bigger cities. I believe Halthan, Bizarre Uproar and Grey Park for example are original Helsinki guys? Not sure who exactly are original Turku people and who just moved there.
But vast majority of noise or especially PE, would originate from smaller cities or even villages. Or at least by people original from there, even if they moved into cities later on.
Skinhead bands for vast majority are small town origin. Black Metal appears to be so. Its very hard to say almost any relevant and long living BM band originally from bigger cities (of Finland that is). Punk used to be scattered to tiniest villages where is absolutely nothing. Not sure how much this is reality now since at least live music appears to focus merely on big cities?

I'm quite sure it has been studied somewhere, yet my assumption would be that big cities with social scenes, venues, record stores, hang out places and such was already enough for many. Living isolated in small city, banging scrap metal in fathers carage with only contacts via international post network... It would probably be filter strong enough to really process people with stronger visions? While I would hope and theoretically believe the collective spirit may lead to higher results, perhaps the reality shows otherwise? I was recently thinking of mapping the "scene". Having image map + bands, their current locations and perhaps ask if this is where they originally came from.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2012, 09:52:02 PM
I was recently thinking of mapping the "scene". Having image map + bands, their current locations and perhaps ask if this is where they originally came from.

Great! Make INTERNATIONAL NOISE NETWORK!

Quote from: Cementimental on June 11, 2012, 07:56:09 PM

Quote from: RyanWreck on June 11, 2012, 07:02:23 PM
I don't think I have ever meet a teenager who is into Industrial or Noise (which is a good thing in my opinion) and a small number of > 21 year olds.

I've met a few over the last few years and now they're some of the most influential, serious and active people in the UK noise/PE scene so maybe you shouldn't make that kind of assumption. Plus most of the 'classic' acts we all go on about here started as teenagers or early 20s...

What assumption did I make?

QuoteWhy is this a good thing? Purely out of interest. I listened to plenty of industrial and noise when i was a teenager (TG/Godflesh/Whitehouse/Ramleh/etc) and still do. I just turned 22.

Yea, I got into this stuff in my early teens as well, around 13 or 14. Maybe I should have clarified what I meant because I think you guys are taking it to mean that I don't like any teenagers being in the genre. I was thinking more about them being the majority like with a lot of other music these days such as Punk or Grime or whatever little genre the kids like these days. When that happens, when teenagers seem to be the main group that the genre revolves around then the genre usually becomes a joke.

Teenagers will like whats new, exciting and of provocative nature, especially if its helping defining a new genre or movement (because they can be a part of it). Older people will as well. From punk, hip-hop, witchhouse and so on. I think the interest in noise/industrial/P.E in the teenage majority comes from the influence of the internet . You dont have to strive or make an effort to know about new projects, releases and shows coming up. Its now easy (and not as exciting) to find out everything about noise. People will have an interest in noise, because its unfamiliar music and often unexplainable, but i doubt noise will be a worldwide teenager fad. Mainly because most people will find it too harsh or boring.

Quote from: Steve on June 11, 2012, 09:42:34 PM
Oldest fucker here ...

Only by a whisker...

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2012, 11:48:29 AMYesterday I was watching piece of UK street magic guy and he appeared in backroom on popular R&B singer and next thing you see one of the crew members with Mayhem t-shirt.

The guy is Dynamo and I was a little bemused to see the shirt on it. Very strange environment, perhaps explained by the Hot Topic "extreme metal" tshirts of a couple of years back? Think Mayhem may have been one of them? Also, on the wall in the sixth form common room scenes on Brit-com The Inbetweeners is a Mayhem - Ordo Ad Chao poster.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2012, 09:52:02 PM
I'm quite sure it has been studied somewhere, yet my assumption would be that big cities with social scenes, venues, record stores, hang out places and such was already enough for many. Living isolated in small city, banging scrap metal in fathers carage with only contacts via international post network... It would probably be filter strong enough to really process people with stronger visions? While I would hope and theoretically believe the collective spirit may lead to higher results, perhaps the reality shows otherwise? I was recently thinking of mapping the "scene". Having image map + bands, their current locations and perhaps ask if this is where they originally came from.

Thinking about this, i guess situation in Italy is similar. Lots of the classic industrial/p.e./noise acts were based in little towns. Dead Body Love, Mauthausen Orchestra, Atrax Morgue, OEC label, etc etc

36 here. I got into noise/experimental/industrial around the age of 19 or 20, but that was due to having pen pals (from Metal Maniacs magazine!) that also listened to that stuff. There was just no one within a 50 mile radius that would have known about any of these bands. There possibly could have been cassettes like Skinny Puppy "Too Dark Park" or similar, but I would have not known anything about the band if I hadn't searched it out. Living in a very small town made it much harder to discover anything remotely different. I'm actually very thankful for the magazines I found at bigger music stores (the Tower Music store in Nashville that I visited had more genre based mags for punk, goth, industrial, metal, etc). And I also think the internet has made it much easier to discover bands, as there isn't much "searching" going on. On one hand that's good, but then again, it seems to dilute the experience of discovering this stuff.

Forgot to add that I turned 30 in May. Started listening to noise and experimental music at age 17. I had been listening to extreme metal for a couple years and got a Relapse sampler CD with Gore Beyond Necropsy on it. It was pretty sick so with the help of the internet (this was in 1999, and at least in Hungary the internet was still pretty new) I found that they had a collab CD with Merzbow. Listened to Merzbow on the Relapse website via Real Player samples; at first thought it was a joke but then I started liking it and started ordering Merzbow, Masonna etc. stuff and never looked back.

Got into noise as a teenager in the mid 90s. Had been into dm/bm since the early 90s so was familiar with the mechanisms of the underground. It was amazing time, I only knew of three noise oriented persons in the whole country, one lived 400 km away from me, the other two 600 km, but that was enough. Then a little later realized that there is also FA recs. The fact that *nobody* else in my surroundings knew or understood made it all the more fascinating, a totally magical private universe - an experience I wish more youngsters could have.

Quote from: martialgodmask on June 12, 2012, 12:59:15 AM

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2012, 11:48:29 AMYesterday I was watching piece of UK street magic guy and he appeared in backroom on popular R&B singer and next thing you see one of the crew members with Mayhem t-shirt.

The guy is Dynamo and I was a little bemused to see the shirt on it. Very strange environment, perhaps explained by the Hot Topic "extreme metal" tshirts of a couple of years back? Think Mayhem may have been one of them? Also, on the wall in the sixth form common room scenes on Brit-com The Inbetweeners is a Mayhem - Ordo Ad Chao poster.

In a world where the guy from Bathory directed a Lady Gaga and dressed her in a GISM jacket anything is possible.

Quote from: Cementimental on June 12, 2012, 10:27:26 AM

Quote from: martialgodmask on June 12, 2012, 12:59:15 AM

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2012, 11:48:29 AMYesterday I was watching piece of UK street magic guy and he appeared in backroom on popular R&B singer and next thing you see one of the crew members with Mayhem t-shirt.

The guy is Dynamo and I was a little bemused to see the shirt on it. Very strange environment, perhaps explained by the Hot Topic "extreme metal" tshirts of a couple of years back? Think Mayhem may have been one of them? Also, on the wall in the sixth form common room scenes on Brit-com The Inbetweeners is a Mayhem - Ordo Ad Chao poster.

In a world where the guy from Bathory directed a Lady Gaga and dressed her in a GISM jacket anything is possible.

My initial thought was "Quothorn?!" before realising how ridiculous this brainfart was and slapped myself for being a twat. Someone should call Sakevi and tell him is was a bootleg.

A pointless observation: age distribution resembles the normal distribution near-perfectly (at least with sample of this small),  center is at slightly higher age I'd have guessed. So eventually even this twisted subculture is not safe from harsh stochastic laws.

I reside in the older half by a small margin. Got into experimental music in late teens in early 90's but until late 20's didn't consider noise nothing but a plain curiosity.

I got into experimental/industrial sounds in early teens, but became obsessed around 18/19 yo and  started doing my own stuff a couple years later.

Quote from: Cementimental on June 12, 2012, 10:27:26 AM
In a world where the guy from Bathory directed a Lady Gaga and dressed her in a GISM jacket anything is possible.

We were neighbours when we grew up. He made all the right career moves; from high school drop-out, to metal drummer, to Madonna's toyboy.

Who is 55-60 or more? Awesome grandpa.

Quote from: Desperate on June 12, 2012, 02:21:32 AM
36 here. I got into noise/experimental/industrial around the age of 19 or 20, but that was due to having pen pals (from Metal Maniacs magazine!) that also listened to that stuff. There was just no one within a 50 mile radius that would have known about any of these bands. There possibly could have been cassettes like Skinny Puppy "Too Dark Park" or similar, but I would have not known anything about the band if I hadn't searched it out. Living in a very small town made it much harder to discover anything remotely different. I'm actually very thankful for the magazines I found at bigger music stores (the Tower Music store in Nashville that I visited had more genre based mags for punk, goth, industrial, metal, etc). And I also think the internet has made it much easier to discover bands, as there isn't much "searching" going on. On one hand that's good, but then again, it seems to dilute the experience of discovering this stuff.

I feel, and understand where you are coming from, I am also from a small town in Tennessee and it was always a struggle looking for music in the early 90's before I had the internet. Magazines (mostly goth and industrial) led me the ways through some of the darker music that led me to Skinny Puppy, Coil, Death In June, and later on to NON, Throbbing Gristle etc. Being a DJ helped with people from the clubs introducing me sometimes to new music and having close knit friends with similar interests around me that was also on the search.

Mikko, you should do a complete demographic survey of the noise scene. Why stop with age? Average income, level of education, parent's level of education, civil status, geographical location of growing up / current (urban/rural), ethnic/religious background, etc etc. You could devote an entire issue of SI discussing and interpreting the results. I'd buy it.

Quote from: ARKHE on June 13, 2012, 01:15:31 PM
Mikko, you should do a complete demographic survey of the noise scene. Why stop with age? Average income, level of education, parent's level of education, civil status, geographical location of growing up / current (urban/rural), ethnic/religious background, etc etc. You could devote an entire issue of SI discussing and interpreting the results. I'd buy it.

I concur!

haha!
Well, of course it could be interesting to some extent, but when there is relatively small group of people, I think results may not be utterly reliable or give any significant results. From some qualities we can make generalizations, but from others probably absolutely nothing.

How far one could go this type of general observation, before it ends up to be "noise cribs" type?

I do remember for example CITY/RUINS document of Cleveland underlining very much how blue collar (working class) the scene is there. My general impression would be western scene is rather dominated by white (lower-)middleclass men at 20-40's? Even bohemic society drop-outs rather fit to middleclass status.

When you see kids that are spoiled with wealth, easiness, or such, I think this can happen in other levels. It may not be the parents, but simply spoiled by urban environment with plenty of stimulants of all sorts and you will never end up in same ways creating things out of having pretty much nothing. I think for example organizing shows in nowadays something like that. At least over here, we're spoiled with having EVERY somehow significant bands and plenty of bands more, on pretty much every possible day - most often brought by professional organizers. Why bother to do anything when everything is done? In small city it could be very different. Either you do it, or it doesn't happen.

I turn 31 in July. I found out about noise around with around 18. Merzbow. 2 years before that i got some Abruptum tape. Somehow it´s noise too, isn´t it ? Lived in a very rural area in south-west Germany at this time. No chance to get to ANY kind of city without a car. Woods, soccer, redneck people. Expect for the woods the rest was worse.

I am fond of the pre-internet time because since this is in existance a lot of "mystic" about such genres as noise or black metal is lost. Would not like to miss the interwebs today anyway.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 13, 2012, 05:42:49 PM
I do remember for example CITY/RUINS document of Cleveland underlining very much how blue collar (working class) the scene is there. My general impression would be western scene is rather dominated by white (lower-)middleclass men at 20-40's? Even bohemic society drop-outs rather fit to middleclass status.

I agree. It does seem as if the western scenes are dominated mainly by white males in their 20's and early 30's. Outside of Liver Mortis is there any other Black guys that play this stuff? I haven't really seen many Mexicans either.

I did like the City/Ruins document but I though that the parts where they said that they were somehow original because of their geographic location was a bit erroneous because the stuff I heard from there really doesn't sound all that different from material coming out of other areas of the world and it seems like for the most part a handful of those guys make their "dirty sound" (I think someone even uses the term "scumtronics"?) and scene unity to be a distinguishing characteristic of only the Cleveland scene.

QuoteI am fond of the pre-internet time because since this is in existance a lot of "mystic" about such genres as noise or black metal is lost. Would not like to miss the interwebs today anyway.

I'm grateful for the internet as I could never have even learned about noise/experimental music without it. Getting familiar with black and death metal in the second half of the 90s in a town of 130 000 in Hungary was basically only a matter of money one could spend on tapes (being a high school student, CDs were too expensive for me), but buying experimental stuff in shops is pretty much impossible even today I believe. I would also be surprised if there were any mailorder companies in the country. The West is lucky to have a culture of good record shops, mailorder services and fanzines/magazines. For the rest of the world, before the internet I guess it was nearly impossible to even find out about experimental music unless one was lucky to know/meet someone already into it.
But yes, discovering extreme metal in high school in pre-internet times was a unique experience, finding out about this strange and "magical" world... and as the years go by, I guess I'll be even more nostalgic about it :).

I can remember the first time i saw a catalog that had tons of music I have never heard of, ranging in the likes of goth, industrial, noise, PE, etc. It was an 4 or 5 pages of xeroxed paper stapled together. This catalog was for Armageddon Records in Chicago, at the time and besides ordering from relapse, the "Release" section where I got my first Brighter Death Now CD's Necrose Evangelicum, and Innerwar...I actually had a bigger pallet of artists to choose from. Also from buying the Brighter Death Now and listening to so much darkwave bands from Projekt records I found the holy grail for me that was Cold Meat Industry. From there it was all downhill. Cold Meat had many compilation CD's where I got to witness true noise and PE for the first time.

I am 22.

Quote from: enmity on June 13, 2012, 09:03:56 PM
I can remember the first time i saw a catalog that had tons of music I have never heard of, ranging in the likes of goth, industrial, noise, PE, etc. It was an 4 or 5 pages of xeroxed paper stapled together. This catalog was for Armageddon Records in Chicago, at the time and besides ordering from relapse, the "Release" section where I got my first Brighter Death Now CD's Necrose Evangelicum, and Innerwar...I actually had a bigger pallet of artists to choose from. Also from buying the Brighter Death Now and listening to so much darkwave bands from Projekt records I found the holy grail for me that was Cold Meat Industry. From there it was all downhill. Cold Meat had many compilation CD's where I got to witness true noise and PE for the first time.

That was a great time...getting printed catalogs to browse through and see all of this stuff you had never heard of. I had quite a few of those old Projekt catalogs, and I remember getting most of my CMI stuff there. I also sent off for CMI catalogs, which had even more obscure (for me at that time) stuff. Aside from the usual darkwave stuff, Projekt usually had a good selection. I remember getting a Mortiis "Anden som" longsleeve from their catalog, as well as his "Reisen" vhs. Good times!

Sending off for catalogs and paperwork is something I really miss.  I started doing it in early childhood out of comic books.  It might very well be the way I began to create my own little worlds of interest and hobby.  As a kid, letters are mysterious things.  The first things you get besides holiday and birthday cards that are addressed to you and are yours.  No matter what it was, I usually had written for a catalog or two.  Stereo equipment.  Camping and climbing gear.  Music.  This year was the first in a long while that I received a huge catalog.  Massive, comprehensive catalog from Hilleberg Tents, including fabric samples.  I haven't seen a catalog like this for...I didn't think companies made catalogs like this anymore.  It's been that long since seeing one.  I lot of them are worth money now, and that makes perfect sense to me.  They're often more difficult to find than the products they sold.

Someone should make a book of the Artware catalogs.  Talk about a resource.  Talk about information.  I appreciate the zine blogs and mad scanners who operate them, but we don't have enough of the old catalog and mailer flyers documented from our past.  They're a part of this culture as much as anything.  Opening up a real letter and having a pile of flyers fall out of it.  Nothing like it.  It is greatly missed.

Ahhhh...catalogues, they were great weren't they, just pouring through them reading titles and (sometimes) descriptions then deciding what to buy come giro / pay day. I still have some Small Wonder Records catalogues from early 1980's and a couple of bootleg tape catalogues from prominent US bootleggers. Still great fun to read and laugh at prices! Mid 1990's catalogues from Artware, Tesco Org, RRRecords, Nuit Et Broulliard were such joys to recieve...almost like a release in their own right. (ha!). It is a shame that these things have all but disappeared. I still get packages full of flyers and stickers..mainly the Finns and Germans. I agree that there should be a web site with a collection of these things...or maybe book??
The Hilleberg Tents is a good name for a band.

Quote from: acsenger on June 13, 2012, 08:27:18 PM

QuoteI am fond of the pre-internet time because since this is in existance a lot of "mystic" about such genres as noise or black metal is lost. Would not like to miss the interwebs today anyway.

I'm grateful for the internet as I could never have even learned about noise/experimental music without it. Getting familiar with black and death metal in the second half of the 90s in a town of 130 000 in Hungary was basically only a matter of money one could spend on tapes (being a high school student, CDs were too expensive for me), but buying experimental stuff in shops is pretty much impossible even today I believe. I would also be surprised if there were any mailorder companies in the country. The West is lucky to have a culture of good record shops, mailorder services and fanzines/magazines. For the rest of the world, before the internet I guess it was nearly impossible to even find out about experimental music unless one was lucky to know/meet someone already into it.
But yes, discovering extreme metal in high school in pre-internet times was a unique experience, finding out about this strange and "magical" world... and as the years go by, I guess I'll be even more nostalgic about it :).

Sure, i totally agree with you on this point. I got my first own and stable internet access in 1999 and since then, the knowledge about unknown bands and stuff did explode. Sure, for something that underground like noise, pe or even CMI stuff whatsoever, it is great to have the interwebs.
Anyway, it did for sure good work for myself and i am sure for MANY, MANY others too BUT black metal lost it´s merit - somehow.... sad but true,
there is not much left of the "occult" (which refers to clandestine) in it.

Quote from: Desperate on June 14, 2012, 05:20:53 AM

Quote from: enmity on June 13, 2012, 09:03:56 PM
I can remember the first time i saw a catalog that had tons of music I have never heard of, ranging in the likes of goth, industrial, noise, PE, etc. It was an 4 or 5 pages of xeroxed paper stapled together. This catalog was for Armageddon Records in Chicago, at the time and besides ordering from relapse, the "Release" section where I got my first Brighter Death Now CD's Necrose Evangelicum, and Innerwar...I actually had a bigger pallet of artists to choose from. Also from buying the Brighter Death Now and listening to so much darkwave bands from Projekt records I found the holy grail for me that was Cold Meat Industry. From there it was all downhill. Cold Meat had many compilation CD's where I got to witness true noise and PE for the first time.

That was a great time...getting printed catalogs to browse through and see all of this stuff you had never heard of. I had quite a few of those old Projekt catalogs, and I remember getting most of my CMI stuff there. I also sent off for CMI catalogs, which had even more obscure (for me at that time) stuff. Aside from the usual darkwave stuff, Projekt usually had a good selection. I remember getting a Mortiis "Anden som" longsleeve from their catalog, as well as his "Reisen" vhs. Good times!

Same goes for me. I can clearly remember the day when we did our first call to NO COLOURS to get their "catalog" back in 1998. 5 A4 pages stapled together and of course with crude xerox design. Good days and worth to remember.

Quote from: Desperate on June 14, 2012, 05:20:53 AM
I remember getting a Mortiis "Anden som" longsleeve from their catalog, as well as his "Reisen" vhs. Good times!

Old Mortiis is the shit, still today. For me, it works. About the VHS, did you pay a hiliarious price too ? For us it was more then 20 Deutsche Mark.
I think, that would equal nearly 30 euro today. HA!!!

I'm 20 now, got into noise aged 15. Started making it aged 17 but have barely released anything yet.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2012, 11:48:29 AM
I was told not so long ago one of the C.S.I. tv series band Graveland was mentioned as part of story of involving east european extremism, hah!

Graveland was mentioned in West Wing and it was about American extremists :)

In the early 90's I liked artists like Skinny Puppy and Einsturzende Neubauten but wanted something more extreme. Being into death metal and such I also found Skin Chamber and I think their Swallowing Scrap Metal tracks were my first introduction to noise. Then in 1993 when I found out about the Internet I stumbled upon Usenet and the discussion group rec.music.industrial. There I found a thread about the most extreme artists/albums and Merzbow was mentioned. Just by accident I found in Helsinki one record store which had a promo copy of Venereology for sale and I bought it. Popped it into my friend's car stereo on the way back home and WOW. I was almost literally blown away. No turning back since then.

Quote from: moozz on June 14, 2012, 10:10:08 PM

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2012, 11:48:29 AM
I was told not so long ago one of the C.S.I. tv series band Graveland was mentioned as part of story of involving east european extremism, hah!

Graveland was mentioned in West Wing and it was about American extremists :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXrts7oiP-g

"I'm fairly convinced we're looking for 15 year old boys." lolz

Hahahaha. Oh man I didn't know that actually made it on to the West Wing. They probably thought they had some real deep shit going there.

Japankore is from the drummer of Dropdead.  One of the first people in the States to be into Japanese HC, and his interests bled into noise a bit.  A wealth of information, and I believe they were all free except the issue that came with an LP of Japanese HC of female bands.

Regarding the survey, I would be interested to know how many women are on this forum. I guess there would be a few?

Quote from: Desperate on June 14, 2012, 05:20:53 AM
I remember getting a Mortiis "Anden som" longsleeve from their catalog, as well as his "Reisen" vhs. Good times!

Old Mortiis is the shit, still today. For me, it works. About the VHS, did you pay a hiliarious price too ? For us it was more then 20 Deutsche Mark.
I think, that would equal nearly 30 euro today. HA!!!
[/quote]

Yeah, I love old Mortiis. I don't remember paying too much for the VHS. It was probably $20 maybe? It was a pretty boring video though. :)

Quote from: Desperate on June 15, 2012, 02:59:33 PM

Quote from: Desperate on June 14, 2012, 05:20:53 AM
I remember getting a Mortiis "Anden som" longsleeve from their catalog, as well as his "Reisen" vhs. Good times!

Old Mortiis is the shit, still today. For me, it works. About the VHS, did you pay a hiliarious price too ? For us it was more then 20 Deutsche Mark.
I think, that would equal nearly 30 euro today. HA!!!

Yeah, I love old Mortiis. I don't remember paying too much for the VHS. It was probably $20 maybe? It was a pretty boring video though. :)
[/quote]

It was fucking boring XD but did work for us at this time. Overall it was somehow obscure and entertaining. Have to watch it again i guess.

Quote from: Desperate on June 15, 2012, 02:59:33 PM
Yeah, I love old Mortiis. I don't remember paying too much for the VHS. It was probably $20 maybe? It was a pretty boring video though. :)

Haha! Did you know the director is here on the forum?

Quote from: post-morten on June 15, 2012, 09:27:24 PM

Quote from: Desperate on June 15, 2012, 02:59:33 PM
Yeah, I love old Mortiis. I don't remember paying too much for the VHS. It was probably $20 maybe? It was a pretty boring video though. :)

Haha! Did you know the director is here on the forum?

Well, thank you all. We could have probably have a shit load more of the filming if creating the face wouldn't taken the better part of the first day of shooting and second... this was before the mask.
And, yes, I find it boring as well :)

Quote from: Strömkarlen on June 16, 2012, 02:49:06 PM

Quote from: post-morten on June 15, 2012, 09:27:24 PM

Quote from: Desperate on June 15, 2012, 02:59:33 PM
Yeah, I love old Mortiis. I don't remember paying too much for the VHS. It was probably $20 maybe? It was a pretty boring video though. :)

Haha! Did you know the director is here on the forum?

Well, thank you all. We could have probably have a shit load more of the filming if creating the face wouldn't taken the better part of the first day of shooting and second... this was before the mask.
And, yes, I find it boring as well :)

Ha! Actually, I didn't think the video was horrible, just a bit boring. When I first bought the vhs, I kept wanting to see more of Mortiis, but I could see how that might ruin his image. Probably best to keep him shrouded in the fog and darkness. :) By the way, where did you film it at?

Thank you. It was shoot north of Gothenburg in an old castle called Bohus Fästning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohus

Thinking about the film it feels a bit strange that the Mortiis film is the only film I released as a director. Since then I've been producing. I have to fix that and do another film.

Any comment from anyone on the role of radio? Y'know, sounds freely available over the airwaves, capable of cutting through geographical and generational gaps in a single broadcast. I'm thinking mainly of college radio and the public broadcasters. I don't think their formative potential can be understated.

In Finland there is very controlled radio network. There was and is the program called Avaruusromia ("space junk") going since 1990. Summary here:
http://yle.fi/radio1/musiikki/avaruusromua/in_english_10511.html

I don't know if you can listen the streams abroad, but there currently online kosmische music against anglo-american popular culture. Electronic-music interpretations of classical music. And all sorts of electronic music.
Should listen it more, but don't even have radio anymore in my stereo set for like 10 years. I listen it almost exclusively in car. Always forget that internet allows one to stream the programs...

Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on June 20, 2012, 08:05:31 PMAny comment from anyone on the role of radio? ... I'm thinking mainly of college radio and the public broadcasters. I don't think their formative potential can be understated.

Rightly said. Public radio from Melbourne, mainly 3RRR and 3PBS, as well as the national broadcaster ABC FM, pointed the way for me for music for decades. I pay tribute to Ulex Xane's "Noise Kills" programme on PBS in the mid 90's for hooking me onto the heavy stuff. Somewhere I still have a tape of the final programme he made, when the then management decided to push NK from it's prime time spot (something like 7.30 in the evening or thereabouts) to some ridiculous time in the evening. Xane told them in no uncertain terms what he thought - the last programme was all his own work, with the final track, Goldenrod's "Fuck You All" (Streicher and Macronympha) dedicated to PBS management.

In the 80's, I alternated between a wonderful programme on ABC FM called "Dreamtime" which gave me whole sides of albums by Klaus Schultze, Eberhard Schoener, Tangerine Dream, Clara Mondshine, Robert Schroder, and others (alternated with classical music) to RRR's "Electro Beat" (formerly "Metal Beat") which introduced me to SPK and the harder, "minimal synth" types. ABC also used to broadcast a lot of electro-acoustic material - I think I mentioned the Stockholm Electronic Music Festival on this forum before.

Formative times. Although to be honest I was far more into Metal in the 80's and punk in the 90's before I got more into Noise now.

I would have to think radio played/plays a much more significant role than here in the USA.  I'm surprised by how many krautrock, industrial, avant-garde, etc radio recordings there are in circulation from European and eastern European radio stations.  I remember doing research on Arsenije Jovanovic (one of the most underrated sound artists of all time; check out his Alluvial CD from a couple years ago) and running into tens and tens of his radio broadcasts.  At the time, he had one CD and one split CD officially released, yet he had a mountain of broadcasts.  Since then, only one new CD has been released.  A big regret is not knowing how to capture streams at that time, because the website hosting those is long gone.  I'd love to have all those, even at whatever crappy rate they were streaming.

Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 22, 2012, 02:58:33 AM
I would have to think radio played/plays a much more significant role than here in the USA.  I'm surprised by how many krautrock, industrial, avant-garde, etc radio recordings there are in circulation from European and eastern European radio stations.  I remember doing research on Arsenije Jovanovic (one of the most underrated sound artists of all time; check out his Alluvial CD from a couple years ago) and running into tens and tens of his radio broadcasts.  At the time, he had one CD and one split CD officially released, yet he had a mountain of broadcasts.  Since then, only one new CD has been released.  A big regret is not knowing how to capture streams at that time, because the website hosting those is long gone.  I'd love to have all those, even at whatever crappy rate they were streaming.

Hadn't heard of Jovanovic before, so I checked out Youtube for sounds. Good stuff! I listened to the first thing to pop up (Prophecy of the Village Kremna) and then gazed out the window. The sun is illuminating a large cloud, giving it a pink glow, at dusk. Having a Koyaanisqatsi moment. :)

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 20, 2012, 10:22:33 PM
In Finland there is very controlled radio network.

I've heard much the same from folks in Japan. As recently as 1999, hitting hardcore events in Tokyo, chatting with the bands - time and again enduring sake-fueled rants on the supreme crappiness of Japanese radio (and the comorbid wider governing bodies in general). HC heads would on occasion profess a love of the choicest of sounds – as in, the good stuff, THE FILTH, what might inspire rare and Special Interests. But growing up... they had no exposure.

I nod in understanding, but at the same time... 20th century composers like Takemitsu, at least, enjoyed broadcast on NHK radio, albeit infrequently. Hijokaidan may have got limited airplay, but the academics got everywhere. And, again, I wouldn't want to understate their potential for deep impact.

Even Borbetomagus say as much. Here's an excerpt from a relatively recent interview:

QuoteInterviewer:
How did you get in touch with Donald [Miller]?

Don Dietrich:
I'd heard his radio show on [Columbia University's] KCR and I'd never heard any of this stuff he was playing before – where we lived it was hard enough to get a Captain Beefheart record, much less the stuff he was playing which was just extraordinary, it was blowing my mind. I told Jim [Sauter] I said, you gotta check this shit out, this is unbelievable!

...they go on to drop names like Kagel, Xenakis, Stockhausen, Penderecki, Ligeti. I assume this was in the late 70s though no dates are mentioned.

Full text here:
http://www.paristransatlantic.com/magazine/interviews/borbetomagus.html

Columbia U, NYC. Hardly a backwater in the middle of Buttfuck, Nowhere. But I'd wager your average college station could find a devoted audience within a good 100km radius. This was true of Toronto, at least. Taking my turn at a little nostalgia now... going back to the mid 80's, TO had three college stations (CKLN, CIUT, CHRY), any one of which could be counted on to deliver a regular dose of the good stuff – admittedly often late night, and still primarily (good) stuff of the academic persuasion. But it was out there. On the airwaves. In abundance. In between all that deathmetal. William S Burroughs marathons. A weekend with The Residents. Endless pointless radio collage projects. And later, inexplicably, Illusion of Safety. I've got a couple boxes of tapes comprised entirely of Illusion of Safety, as broadcast over the airwaves. Hours of fucking Illusion of Safety. No complaints, is good. The CBC, the national broadcaster, were on it too, and to the best of my knowledge have been reliably irritating taste-deficient Canadians for a few decades at least.  

Here's an interview with Mitch Krol, "The Demon" beneath a Toronto radio show called "Beyond The Gates Of Hell". Or as The Demon put it, "Satanic music for Satanic people." Big influence on thirteen-year old Slutbag, as you might imagine! Mr Krol comes on with his deep, pitch-shifted, echoing, demon voice over a background of crying babies. Week after week I'd faithfully stay tuned for the especially weird shit to be heard at 3:33, The Hour Of Satan. The dude should have been doing stand-up. An excerpt from his show comes at about 5:00 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIuiWM35cUI


...all and all, it seems appropriate that my first performance for an audience outside my neck of the woods was a phone-in on, indeed, a Columbia U KCR-presented 72-hour noise festival:

http://www.modern-radio.com/board/t.php?id=23639

Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 01, 2012, 05:02:24 PM
20th century composers like Takemitsu, at least, enjoyed broadcast on NHK radio, albeit infrequently. Hijokaidan may have got limited airplay, but the academics got everywhere. And, again, I wouldn't want to understate their potential for deep impact.

Shortly after posting this (which shows how often I get a chance to post here!), I was checking out the Twice Zonked blog and found that even the in the 50`s radio was inspiring people.

Eliane Radigue, in her words, "heard on the radio a program by Pierre Schaeffer, master of musique concrète" in the late 50`s and was inspired to get in touch...

Matsuo Ohno, in his words, was inspired from NHK broadcasts of Stockhausen in the 60`s...

...the point being that radio has obviously been an influence (on more "specialized" tastes) probably almost since its inception. Which perhaps demonstrates that regardless of what`s out there, widely available, on the airwaves, online, whatever, a certain special interest in seeking out something more probably needs to be there. Toronto had three college stations and the CBC, but then as later I still got the same incredulous reactions from those with less "specialized", er, needs, re-

"Where do you hear this stuff?!" (practically a mantra, one I`m sure we`re all familiar with)

I remember, as a very young child with, um, special (sonic-sensual) needs, spending hours flipping the radio dial back and forth in an effort to hear that e-special-ly interest-ing music I just "knew" existed, but never seemed to hear in that context - on radio. Of course, I "knew" it existed because I very probably had heard it many times - on TV, or in movies. It`s there. It`s always been there. Perhaps some are simply more sensitive to the fact than others.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 11, 2012, 09:52:02 PM

Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 11, 2012, 08:31:52 PM
People from large metropolitan areas, or areas of condensed population (thinking of NY, MA, MD, NJ), really don't have any idea how less populated areas function.  How slowly change and trends occur or drag behind is lost on them.

This is something what I have been thinking for years, and quite a lot. In case of Finnish noise, there certainly are bands from bigger cities. I believe Halthan, Bizarre Uproar and Grey Park for example are original Helsinki guys?

Actually I think Grey Park was originally started in Hyvinkää or wherever plaa used to live before moving to Helsinki, I'm the only one of current members who is an original Helsinki guy. :)