Who agrees with me that the peak of P.E. happened in the late 90's through the early years of 2000? For me, there is no intrigue/mystery any more. I wish for the days before the internet. There is just too much information out there. Even the artists from this time period have called it quits or have moved on in new directions. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the U.S. Bestial Forces 3xCD on L-White, yet I'm not interested enough to pursue the material of any of the new artists. Dare I say I am getting bored with the genre? Where is the obscurity?
Maybe there IS something to the CHANGE OF CLIMATE IN NOISE / SOCIAL FACTOR / GENERATION ME thread.
just trying to generate some discussion...
'88-'98, possibly. Can you give me a couple examples of post-'98 greats? I'm not very well versed after that year. When I think of the possible end of the golden era, I think of Ex.Order, Thorofon, Soldnergeist, Einleitungszeit (though all of their albums impress me in different ways), and a few other European groups that were on their own path and consistently high quality.
This is about as subjective as it gets. Did PE peak in Britain in the 1980's? Is it peaking in the US right now? I have to say I've never thought about it ever having a paticular period when it peaked - it seems to go from phase to phase, from place to place.
I talked with some friends about the lack of specific "zeitgeist" in the modern noise scene (think noise as umbrella term for a lot of things).
You can see many things in past, which not all appear clear when it is happening, but you will realize it when it's gone. Or it will make big impact in beginning, but even with stable quality material, simply attention spam for people finding new and fresh things is not long enough to digest slow moving evolution. They need new drastically different material.
But lets see...
-Industrial music 70's early 80's ?
-UK power electronics early 80's (WH, SJ, CE, Ramleh..)
-UK power electronics mid 80's to 90's (Grey Wolves, Con-Dom, etc..)
-German heavy electronics / industrial late 80's 90's (Genocide Organ, Ex.Order, Dagda Mor, Anenzephalia,...)
-Swedish death industrial late 80's / 90's (Lille Roger, BDN, CMI related in general)
-Finnish power electronics late 90's (Pain Nail, Order, Grunt, Strom.ec, Cloama, Bizarre Uproar, etc etc)
-Finnish power electronics of 2000's (Filth & Violence related etc)
-Swedish 2000's post-"Utmarken" tape noise rawness, sewer election, altar of flies, + ton more
-Danish 2010+ posh isolation related
-USA late 80's and early 90's (I.A., Slogun, Deathpile, Taint, Final Solution,...)
-USA late 90's 2000's new wave (Prurient, Wolf Eyes, No Fun, Hospital, Hanson etc related)
-USA mid 90's tape harsh noise crunch (macro, stimbox, ramirez, etc etc)
-USA mid 2000's harsh noise puritanism (maybe Troniks label catalogue speaks for itself!)
-USA 2005-> new wave of PE (well check Bestial USA forces for like 50 names!)
-Japan 80's to perhaps mid 90's noise
-Italia 80's power electronics (MO, Sodality, Swatika Kommando..)
-Italia 90's lethal electronics (Slaughter prod, Murder Corporation etc etc)
ääähhhaaahh.....
I believe there are tons of good stuff happening. We could ad certain moments of Russian industrial. Russian radio-noise. I believe there is pretty intense stuff happening in Australia as we speak.
List could go on and on, dissect further eras from country to another, depending one once perspective and location, what exactly he has been following and what kind of collective spirit has made the impact.
Some of these include bands that existed before and after "phenomena", but surrounding and climate simply passed by.
Many of these things happened in relatively slow rate, and even if you could see that simultaneously and often bleeding into eachother. there is waves of Tesco industrial, CMI and such... there is the also other things. While Finland may be relatively known for certain type of noise, at the same time, the hyped collectible free-folk-noise would dominate certain magazines and distribution lists while those who follow noise from industrial edge may remain utterly clueless about it. While other remembers 90's Germany from Tesco and Power & Steel/LOKI, the other will remember Drone Records, Selection and Artware.
So how you measure "peak" ? What quality would that peak be? The moment you're personally interested - or some other quality what CAN be somehow measured? Amount of bands? Amount of labels? Amount of releases that gain classic status? Amount of live shows and interest from people to visit them? Amount of media attention? Whatever?
What makes the current situation different, is simply the lack of zeitgeist manifesting in same manner like in old times. No matter is there is 20 groups around to world doing something, it simply ain't the same as climate where bands and label rosters and locations are tied together firmly. And where this phenomena is much much more than couple good artists.
I would dare to say, that no matter how amazing Japanese noise album would be made now, it will be forever regarded inferior to albums of classic "golden years" of Japanese noise - simply due lack of collective spirit / cultural climate.
Same could be said that no matter how good UK PE album someone new comes up with, they will always be looked differently of early 80's or late 80's.
The spirit of the times can't be really be forced. I think the "branding" and making scenes won't necessarily bring any memorable results, but make that artificiality as the spirit!
Like I mentioned, I would assume that most currently happening things are something you will only realize later on. You may sleep over the rise of great swedish rough sounding "tape industrial" and notice in 2020 how there was such a golden years in 2012?
From list I mentioned, I think there are currently ongoing currents what has proven strong and very personal. Will they match the legacy of Tesco/CMI/slaughter/AWB/Bloodlust/Praxis Dr.Bearmann etc... only time will tell. It's certainly true there are hardly too many LABELS who would set some concrete milestones for us to remember! You know, if L.White from germany could pull fucking 50 US PE bands for compilation, how come there is hardly a label in USA who'd create monolith of this phenomena in some other form than ltd 50 tapes sold to friends in facebook (excuse slight exaggeration)?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 08, 2012, 01:02:18 PM
I talked with some friends about the lack of specific "zeitgeist" in the modern noise scene (think noise as umbrella term for a lot of things).
You can see many things in past, which not all appear clear when it is happening, but you will realize it when it's gone. Or it will make big impact in beginning, but even with stable quality material, simply attention spam for people finding new and fresh things is not long enough to digest slow moving evolution. They need new drastically different material.
But lets see...
I would add yet for example:
-French new wave of experimental postindustrial 80s (ART & TECHNIQUE, LE SYNDICAT, ETANT DONNES, ENTRE VIFS, VIVENZA, DENIER DU CULTE, M.NOMIZED, LA NOMENKLATUR, LA SONORITE JAUNE, STENKA BAZIN etc.);
-Spain postindustrial of 80s (Francisco LOPEZ, EG, L'AKSTREMAUNCIO, MACROMASSA, COMMANDO BRUNO, ESCUPEMETRALLA, DISENO CORBUSIER etc.);
-Dutch noise-postindustrial of 80s and 90s (KAPOTTE MUZIEK, HYWARE, DE FABRIEK, BEEQUEEN, MEER STAAL, ODAL, Roel MEELKOP, THU20 etc.)
- Yugoslovian industrial of 80s. (LAIBACH, ABBILDUNGEN VARIETE, SAT STOICISMO, BORGHESIA, Mario MARZIDOVSEK, etc.)
- Polish experimental postindustrial and noise of 80 and 90s (BUDIMEX '55, WAHEHE, Zbigniew KARKOWSKI, McMARIAN, TOTART DDA, GENETIC TRANSMISSIONS, ZA SIÓDMĄ GÓRĄ, RONGWRONG, MARCHLEVSKY etc.);
-Swizz experimental noise 80/90 (SCHIMPFLUCH GRUPPE, NACHTLUFT, G*PARK, SUDDEN INFANT)
Any genre has its peak and fall. Any genre (especialy noise/PE/industrial) can survive but artists must break rules, even these rules which are against to other.
Perhaps more interesting than consider what is the "peak" of some vague genre, would be something like this. To spot and identify some strong moments in the genre, which made something interesting, something unique what sets it apart from rest to something what can be seen as thing of its own.
Each addition of certain "spirit of the time/moment" listed by ImpulsyStetoskopu is very vital and important. Their links to what is considered "power electronics" is also often quite easy to find.
Then worrying about one phase becoming history and next phase taking over, seems useless, when few decades of history and amazing bands must be largely unknown for bigger public? I'm thinking each of these "moments" would warrant discussion of it's own - with references of essential releases - links to previews if available.
You know, how often you hear people talking of Sat Stoicizmo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8QuAuBy1eA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RJFVfR6FN4&feature=related
It's at the same time very vintage, but futuristic. I guess the old releases are now quite hard to get so I don't blame the younger folks to miss these..
Maybe I'm stuck in a much-prolonged honeymoon period with noise (and related), but threads like this make me a little sad. Maybe it's the idea that the bubble will burst for me some time! Like Andrew said, I guess it's ultimately such a subjective stance as different people will get different things out of different periods. I'm just pleased that I'm not on the downward stretch.
It doesn't seem realistic that there should be an ultimate peak, and from there on just a downward slope. I've always thought that genres have times where there is tons of good shit coming out, and then periods where there isn't that much happening(or I just haven't been able to track it down), before it peaks again. Ofcourse, where those peaks are is subjective.. I don't see an overload of easily accessible music as a problem, really. If you check something out, and don't like it, don't listen to it. Then again, I didn't exist before the internet, so maybe I can't appreciate what a golden age it truly was.
Sat Stoicizmo was pretty cool, by the way. Thanks!
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 08, 2012, 04:32:38 PM
You know, how often you hear people talking of Sat Stoicizmo?
I can only suppose :) This group was very unique and mystery. Their music is one of the most original ever. In my opinion, there are more such great diamonds which is known only by few people. We all know English/American/West European well known projects, but we don't want (or only from time to time, randomly) to know those less known, from small countries where weren't/aren't good tradition for such music. Always Canada will be in the shadow of USA. Who knows and likes Canadian INTERSYSTEMS group? Why this group is less known than American SILVER APPLES or CROMAGNON from those years? Why Russian ZGA is less known than French DDAA, German P16.D4, English AMM? Why anybody doesn't talk about Ukrainian SHEIK H-FI when are listed TG, DOME or NWW?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 08, 2012, 04:32:38 PM
I guess the old releases are now quite hard to get so I don't blame the younger folks to miss these..
If I can use this place and situation. In this year I am going to issue 3-way CD box of LE SYNDICAT with old recordings, not re-released yet tapes, and 2 or 3-way CD box compilation too, the great Slovenian band ABBILDUNGEN VARIETE, so younger folks can know "classic" better :)
I started to work on two listings focused loosely on "PE", to somehow document the history.
List of PE labels and short introductions. Should be probably updated. There's bunch of new appearing since this was done:
http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=12.0
Canon of PE:
http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=13.0
(NOTE: both these still welcome additions/suggestions etc! Don't be shy even if suggestion might meet utter disagreement, hah..)
Encyclopedia of industrial music -book series by Impulsy Stetoskopu will remain source book to refer.
But as for complete history written by someone - I think it does not exists. If it would, I'm sure it would remain always incomplete and under debate of various things.
IF someone will someday write history of genre, I would guess good starting point to approach is to observe:
-What bands have existed, what are their most relevant releases, what was their influence, etc.
-What labels have existed and how they operated etc.
-What magazines existed and what type, etc.
Putting in chronological and geographical order, possibly seeing how they approach sound/theme/technology/communication and how it crosses over with other groups or labels.
Perhaps hopefully reach to artists to see their influences and ideas (see SI the essentials feature).
Perhaps among the different era's, one should not forget for example 80's Japanese industrial. Even with some cross-over, it's still hard to lump Vasilisk, Grim, Dissecting Table and such among "jap noise".
The Sat Stoicizmo LP was always relatively scarce, but the 2LP/CD was distributed well. It collected dust in distros. Ended up being a highly discounted item. I remember seeing the CD still not sell for $4. Didn't Groundfault have to give them away? And that was in a time when listeners were much more open and inquisitive about sound than they seem to be now. This would be an interesting thread; releases of high quality that went unnoticed.
I think audio compilation would be plain impossible to make representative. Even if being like 10 CD box or something. I think it is also perhaps fault of some contemporary compilation that tracks sometimes appear as if they were made to be safe / "representative". While from older compilations tend to find surprising tracks. At least that's my gut feeling.
To dissect the genre to audio compilations of something specific, there is recent topic of "national compilations" or something like that. Compilations focusing on specific region in specific time.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 08, 2012, 09:31:46 PM
The Sat Stoicizmo LP was always relatively scarce, but the 2LP/CD was distributed well. It collected dust in distros. Ended up being a highly discounted item. I remember seeing the CD still not sell for $4. Didn't Groundfault have to give them away? And that was in a time when listeners were much more open and inquisitive about sound than they seem to be now. This would be an interesting thread; releases of high quality that went unnoticed.
LP or 12" if you want to call it that, was re-issued on CDR. Now when you look discogs, there is no CD's, there is no 12"s, but only the double LP going from 20,- for rugged copy to 50,- mint.
I think Artware made BIG editions. And no matter how good some of the stuff on label were, they were sold at discount. In the last days when Donna had already died, I bought some Artware titles for 2,-/each wholesale rates. Even if Dedication II isn't as good as first one, it's still weird with line-up consisting Hijokaidan, CCCC, Macronympha, Putrefier, Nord, Chop Shop, Aube, etc.. and mint copies in discogs for 4 euro... ridiculous. With some things, pressings are maybe too big compared to potential.
"I believe there is pretty intense stuff happening in Australia"
Info on Australia please.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 08, 2012, 01:02:18 PM
From list I mentioned, I think there are currently ongoing currents what has proven strong and very personal. Will they match the legacy of Tesco/CMI/slaughter/AWB/Bloodlust/Praxis Dr.Bearmann etc... only time will tell. It's certainly true there are hardly too many LABELS who would set some concrete milestones for us to remember! You know, if L.White from germany could pull fucking 50 US PE bands for compilation, how come there is hardly a label in USA who'd create monolith of this phenomena in some other form than ltd 50 tapes sold to friends in facebook (excuse slight exaggeration)?
i think comps like what l. white did bring out people into noise that just want to be on a release so they do a "one off' pe track/project. i really didnt like how that release came out. im sure it could have been done better in just one disk. i see how/why people use facebook(i dont) im sure its just a thing of the times(like myspace)
as for the limited to 50 copy statement i really dont see why you would need more then that for a tape. if it keeps getting good reviews/sells out fast/see people selling it for ridiculous prices would be more of a reason to make more copies. but labels worldwide making 99 copies of a lp, or 200 cds and never planing to repress is just as bad? maybe if that release is good enough it gets picked up by someone willing to make more copies.
and as for "peak of pe" if that was really the case what would be the point of going on? there is still GREAT amount of artist doing fantastic work. spend your money and find them.
in many genres the begining or at least the early times are best. and as much as I like currents things the 80s were extreme. proper underground stuff.
you might see a couple of disgruntled messages about a swastica cover art now but those youngsters were doing it 30 years ago.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 08, 2012, 10:44:36 PM
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 08, 2012, 09:31:46 PM
The Sat Stoicizmo LP was always relatively scarce, but the 2LP/CD was distributed well. It collected dust in distros. Ended up being a highly discounted item. I remember seeing the CD still not sell for $4. Didn't Groundfault have to give them away? .
LP or 12" if you want to call it that, was re-issued on CDR. Now when you look discogs, there is no CD's, there is no 12"s, but only the double LP going from 20,- for rugged copy to 50,- mint.
I remember when I bought CD "Mah 2" directly from Donna very quick after it was issued. There were 500 copies of CD and 500 copies of LP, as far as I remember. And all edition was quick sold, at least in ARTWARE. I re-issued their "Jačati Tijelo Sportom" on CD-R, I had permission only for sell 100 copies, and quickly it was done.
Quote from: STREETMEAT on July 08, 2012, 11:57:43 PMthere is still GREAT amount of artist doing fantastic work. spend your money and find them.
Feel free to list names and releases. You ARE invited. I'm interested, and I'm sure others are as well.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 09, 2012, 12:34:23 AM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 08, 2012, 10:44:36 PM
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 08, 2012, 09:31:46 PM
The Sat Stoicizmo LP was always relatively scarce, but the 2LP/CD was distributed well. It collected dust in distros. Ended up being a highly discounted item. I remember seeing the CD still not sell for $4. Didn't Groundfault have to give them away? .
LP or 12" if you want to call it that, was re-issued on CDR. Now when you look discogs, there is no CD's, there is no 12"s, but only the double LP going from 20,- for rugged copy to 50,- mint.
I remember when I bought CD "Mah 2" directly from Donna very quick after it was issued. There were 500 copies of CD and 500 copies of LP, as far as I remember. And all edition was quick sold, at least in ARTWARE. I re-issued their "Jačati Tijelo Sportom" on CD-R, I had permission only for sell 100 copies, and quickly it was done.
She and her right-hand man (forget his name now; Rene?) were prolific traders and wholesalers. Doesn't surprise me that she could move 1000 copies in a matter of days or small number of weeks.
I didn't know about the CDR reissue. Cool that something as deserving, but as unknown, as it received recent treatment.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 09, 2012, 12:39:08 AM
She and her right-hand man (forget his name now; Rene?) were prolific traders and wholesalers.
Did you mean about Stefan Bremer?
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 09, 2012, 12:43:05 AM
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 09, 2012, 12:39:08 AM
She and her right-hand man (forget his name now; Rene?) were prolific traders and wholesalers.
Did you mean about Stefan Bremer?
No, Artware was Donna & another guy who died. I do not remember his name.
For someone who missed out on alot, I can see reissues being more of an interest but for me, I'm more interested in what's going on now.
As far as my work is concerned, I like Mania more than most of what I did as Taint. Taint's peak was "Sex Sick" in terms of sound & content hence it being the final release.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 09, 2012, 12:43:05 AM
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 09, 2012, 12:39:08 AM
She and her right-hand man (forget his name now; Rene?) were prolific traders and wholesalers.
Did you mean about Stefan Bremer?
Honestly, I cannot remember. I'm terrible with names, and I'm only getting worse (and I don't even bother trying to associate all the screen names people use on various boards). I know that when I would write Artware, Donna would respond and then hand me off to her main helper to work out the details. I have an itch that says his name was Rene, but that doesn't mean much. It could be anything.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 09, 2012, 12:35:47 AM
Quote from: STREETMEAT on July 08, 2012, 11:57:43 PMthere is still GREAT amount of artist doing fantastic work. spend your money and find them.
Feel free to list names and releases. You ARE invited. I'm interested, and I'm sure others are as well.
SHIFT
IRON FIST OF THE SUN
NYODENE D (Edenfall is hands down going to be the American winner of 2012. Stronger then a lot of Euro releases this year.)
DETERGE
PHARMAKON
POGROM
BRETHREN
IRM
And I could list more, but that didn't take me very long.
Come on old man, you can't be that closed off from the scene.
It wasn't a test or a rhetorical whipping. People say there are great things out there, and I want to hear them. I've, of course, heard IRM and Brethren. IFotS didn't do anything for me. I've seen the other names, but I have not heard them. Please give me specific releases so I don't end up hearing the low points and losing interest.
I thought the Karasyozoku - Mischievous Sigyn 1923 tape was a high quality, forward moving album. It had deep roots in the past, but it didn't rest there.
You've got good taste, HONOR_IS_KING! I'd add Pestdemon to that list, awesome swedish, different sounding stuff that I rarely read about anywhere. Check out Doppelgänger, and Helvetesljuset. Everything I've heard from him has been great though.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on July 09, 2012, 01:07:39 AM
As far as my work is concerned, I like Mania more than most of what I did as Taint. Taint's peak was "Sex Sick" in terms of sound & content hence it being the final release.
Frankly speaking, I know only two releases of MANIA which was issued by Mikko, and I like it, but TAINT is evergreen for me, and still, since many years I have been loving "The Untimely Silence", "Daughter: Victimology 2" and "Whoredom", especialy this last one which is one of the most important release of 90s, at least for me.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 08, 2012, 08:45:09 PM
I started to work on two listings focused loosely on "PE", to somehow document the history.
List of PE labels and short introductions. Should be probably updated. There's bunch of new appearing since this was done:
http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=12.0
Canon of PE:
http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=13.0
IF someone will someday write history of genre, I would guess good starting point to approach is to observe:
-What bands have existed, what are their most relevant releases, what was their influence, etc.
-What labels have existed and how they operated etc.
-What magazines existed and what type, etc.
Putting in chronological and geographical order, possibly seeing how they approach sound/theme/technology/communication and how it crosses over with other groups or labels.
This is the great idea. I think it could be a base to create website with a huge bank of datas. Some people prefered to create such like that not printed books as I wanted. But I don't trust in internet world (I think this isn't stable as material things), besides I don't have knowledge how to create such website. Anyway if it set up I would be very happy because it would serve for younger generations who have (as I suppose) the bigger passion in knowing a new music than elder people (this forum is proof for that - here is more people in age of 20-30 than elder), who should be the main aim for label owners, organizers of festivals or music magazine editors.
I think if being complete, like "noise bible", is impossible, then aiming for incomplete is acceptable. It should never be about whether everybody is mentioned or if all discographies are catalogued in utmost precision. Also to find out every local "era" would be unnecessary when looking bigger picture. It would be tough job to be the one to decide what actually is THE relevant, without being too biased.
Even Finnish "scene" could be divided to much more than 2 parts I mentioned.
If we forget the experimental sound in general and focus on what is more "industrial", one could look the Finland in 80's, when there was both international connections, but also total isolation. You could acknowledge the pre-Panasonic industrial noise works or Musiikkivyöry or such projects. Perhaps also a bit of Wolfsage or such quite obscure ones.
Currently quite well known artists born in 91-93 era could be Bizarre Uproar, UND, Grunt, etc.. who all did also international vinyl releases quite early.
It wasn't until maybe '98-2000 when finally more recognition was gained and with burst of related projects appearing and beginning of live activity, it became more coherent "era". Also one should always remember KMY live activity as group who brough plenty of CMI artists to Finland and also same time allowed lots of domestic artists to get to play (grunt, pain nail, cloama, strom.ec, gelsomina, etc etc)
Perhaps one big change was the Bizarre Uproar's return from hiatus. New approach, lots of live activity, launch of label, plenty of visibility and new bands, people etc.
I'm very glad to see that there is new labels, new gig organizers, even zines, new projects as well. And not just side projects of old pervs, but fresh blood.
Genre operates often based on myths. As mentioned in some threads before, we still talk about riot in Whitehouse gig or people still mythologize for example Exuinox Event 83-84 (dm52, club moral, ramleh, Pure, Krank, etc,...). But talking to some people who was there, it might be just poorly organized gig. But nevertheless utterly crucial. I would consider perhaps one crucial point the Private gig in Mellunmäki plywood hall (COT, BU, Gelsomina, Above Suspicion, Restraint). If it was 50 people or something who really was there, I still consider it among one key points of current development. It has grown to exists in slightly mythical dimension. Perhaps same could be said about '98 FA fest, which really was pretty poor in modern standards, hah, but the stories people later told about their experience raises it to another level.
I have toyed around doing a book. But, perhaps just about Finland, since that's what I know and those are people I can reach for comments and ideas. Trying to cover past decades of countries as a guy who wasn't there, will not be as easy. Also it is about asking what for the book would be created?
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 09, 2012, 01:39:44 PM
I think if being complete, like "noise bible", is impossible, then aiming for incomplete is acceptable. It should never be about whether everybody is mentioned or if all discographies are catalogued in utmost precision.
Exactly, but it wasn't be a reason for indolence. Besides such books like "noise bibles" shouldn't have main aim being complete (of course, authors should do everything what they can, to achieve this aim), rather it should be reliable and in comprehensive way describe this phenomena, because every kind of music has pioneers, aesthetics and cultural foundations. Any human's activity (even in avantgarde) didn't come from vacuum. Anyway, conclusion is: the more people will write about this phenomena the better to understand this music and her anticultural quality.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 09, 2012, 01:39:44 PM
I have toyed around doing a book. But, perhaps just about Finland, since that's what I know and those are people I can reach for comments and ideas. Trying to cover past decades of countries as a guy who wasn't there, will not be as easy. Also it is about asking what for the book would be created?
Yes, it would be incredible work and I would be one of the first person who could buy it. And I will buy every book about this kind of music which was / is in Russia, Hungary, Brasil, Australia, Canada or Israel, and other 200 countries from all the world.
some years ago somebody asked me to werite a book regarding noise/power electronics, etc.
thing was that there were not enough pages to analyse everything I had in mind. I would have needed much more than 200 pages.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 09, 2012, 02:36:39 AM
Please give me specific releases
Fair enough. I personally think its horseshit that just because I was born too late (St. Vitus, hur hur) the genre as a whole is completely null at this point. Makes it seem like an " elite good ol' boys club", then an actual musical community at times.
Shift "Bulk" CD
Nyodene D "Every Knee Shall Bow" and then go get "Edenfall" when that bad boy finally drops on Malignant.
Deterge "Substrate Catalyzation" and "Anacoluthan" cassettes.
Pogrom "Multicultural Degeneration" CD.
Pharmakon, basically anything she has done. She is unbelievable.
Also, I would like to add: Gnawed. Anything by Grant as well, dude kills it with his home made gear and completely infuriated vocal style.
Quote from: KMusselman on July 10, 2012, 12:26:28 AM
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 10, 2012, 12:08:06 AM
I personally think its horseshit that just because I was born too late (St. Vitus, hur hur) the genre as a whole is completely null at this point. Makes it seem like an " elite good ol' boys club", then an actual musical community at times.
sorry you feel that way. that was not at all my intention for starting the thread. i'm hardly an elitist. i came into the genre late 90's/early 2000 and I feel that I am too late. i just feel i need to collect the classics so that my collection is representative. P.E. is NOT dead. i personally don't like the shift from the old to the new.
it's all good...
Not taking a stab at you or anyone precisely. Just speaking in general terms.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 10, 2012, 12:08:06 AM
Fair enough. I personally think its horseshit that just because I was born too late (St. Vitus, hur hur) the genre as a whole is completely null at this point. Makes it seem like an " elite good ol' boys club", then an actual musical community at times.
There isn't an art movement in history that doesn't have an established golden period and a group of high-point artists within that period. All music is included in that phenomenon. Classic rock. Hair metal. Synth pop. Prog. Krautrock. Swedish death metal. Painters. Sculptors. Writers. You name it. Others dabble in the style afterwards, but the golden period is always the golden period. As time moves forward, the parameters tighten and become better defined. That implies that the others fall outside of those parameters. You can view things however you'd like, but the chaos you seem to prefer wouldn't contribute to the formation of a culture. And we can have these discussions because we are functioning within a culture.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 10, 2012, 12:51:48 AM
Others dabble in the style afterwards, but the golden period is always the golden period. As time moves forward, the parameters tighten and become better defined. You can view things however you'd like, but the chaos you seem to prefer wouldn't contribute to the formation of a culture.
Well you sound like you got yourself a history degree like myself. Ahalan wasahalan ya oustatha!
Couldn't you say that chaos is what aided in creating industrial/power electronics though? Same could be said for punk too. Breaking away from "norms" and what not? Trying to step away from what founding fathers had done already? Isn't it about the drive to keep pushing boundaries, or just constantly settling for what others have done before?
Why settle for what someone declares instead of evolve past it?
Quote from: KMusselman on July 10, 2012, 01:17:28 AM
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 10, 2012, 01:04:07 AM
Well you sound like you got yourself a history degree like myself. Ahalan wasahalan ya oustatha!
I have a degree in Psychology :-)
Nice. I often thought of taking classes towards that but I didn't care enough at the time.
I got a degree I didn't even want in the first place.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 10, 2012, 01:04:07 AM
Couldn't you say that chaos is what aided in creating industrial/power electronics though? Same could be said for punk too.
Nope, I don't harbor any delusions of grandeur about this music. The Ramones and punk evolved out of certain conditions, and now we have it. Same for all things. Artists don't exist outside of anything. They don't create out of a vacuum. It's quite the opposite. I don't see a lot of chaos in that, unless you consider
accident to be chaos. I don't.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 10, 2012, 01:04:07 AM
why settle for what someone declares instead of evolve past it?
I never said anyone should, but to become disheartened or frustrated with a conversation like this is silly.
(I don't have any history in art)
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 10, 2012, 01:23:03 AM
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 10, 2012, 01:04:07 AM
Couldn't you say that chaos is what aided in creating industrial/power electronics though? Same could be said for punk too.
Nope, I don't harbor any delusions of grandeur about this music. The Ramones and punk evolved out of certain conditions, and now we have it. Same for all things. Artists don't exist outside of anything. They don't create out of a vacuum. It's quite the opposite. I don't see a lot of chaos in that, unless you consider accident to be chaos. I don't.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 10, 2012, 01:04:07 AM
why settle for what someone declares instead of evolve past it?
I never said anyone should, but to become disheartened or frustrated with a conversation like this is silly.
(I don't have any history in art)
I guess what I'm trying to say is that what they were doing at the time was considered "chaos" to those around them and the average listener.
Not disheartened or frustrated, just chit chatting. You mad?
completely Al Jaffee
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
Good one, seriously.
I don't understand why some people don't want to talk here about music but they crave to attack other interlocutors (not their views) or put somebody down. Something like politicians or celebrites... Perhaps such situations are for somebody more interesting as talking about value of music/art, but then this forum couldn't exist for such desires. Always somebody can use PM option.
The best of conversations always wander.
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on July 10, 2012, 12:08:06 AM
Makes it seem like an " elite good ol' boys club", then an actual musical community at times.
Every generation has its heroes and every younger generation should say "no" to previous "heroes". For example, in Poland small harsh noise community don't respect such projects as WHITEHOUSE, MERZBOW, TNB and many other well known from 80. and 90. They didn't listen even TG, SPK or EG, not to mention krautrock or academic avantgarde, for them those projects haven't common points with "true noise". They worship such acts like: XOME, FACIALMESS!, SICKNESS and exceptionally elder Japan artist Kazumoto Endo. Initially I didn't understand them, how they could love NOISE if they ignore something what have established aesthetic canons and run all that big avalanche. But next I saw their logic and cruel blade sword of the time. Every next generation (receivers and artists) is able to understand PE/NOISE/INDUSTRIAL phenomena much more better than those people who were shaped by their "heroes". Then, NOISE isn't reason to sentimental back to "better" time, to our youth, and looking for in that "golden age". This is one of the reason why I am very interested in views of young people about avantgarde, industrial/PE/noise from 70/80/90s, especially, when they try to see this period in their eyes, not too much covered/influenced by opinions, books, magazines, interviews of other, elder receivers.
On paper I like the idea of Power Electronics. A musical scene that is pretty much devoted to certain extreme acts and certain extreme images and relentlessly follows its vision all the way through. And yet when you see it, it's a disappointment. I've never really liked anything too prescriptive with regards to music. Imagery, lyrics or whatever. If something's as narrow a church as Power Electronics or black metal appear to be, then you don't want to spend a lot of time with them.
http://thequietus.com/articles/09307-consumer-electronics-philip-best-interview
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on July 17, 2012, 04:40:46 PM
On paper I like the idea of Power Electronics. A musical scene that is pretty much devoted to certain extreme acts and certain extreme images and relentlessly follows its vision all the way through. And yet when you see it, it's a disappointment. I've never really liked anything too prescriptive with regards to music. Imagery, lyrics or whatever. If something's as narrow a church as Power Electronics or black metal appear to be, then you don't want to spend a lot of time with them.
This is the best example why I don't like reading interviews with people who create music which I like very much.
Seems like he's describing what he does perfectly.
There's way too many people making music these days. There's too much. I was thinking some form of taxation or something...
I didn't know that quality of music depends on how many artists create it - the more does it, from bad to worth with music. Mr. Best is a combatant, a sad grandad...
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on July 17, 2012, 09:35:12 PM
Seems like he's describing what he does perfectly.
He's done a lot of different styles really from the garbled space-rock of 90s Ramleh and Skullflower to the godawful indie-dance of The Worried Well - the last CE album Crowd Pleaser could be described as PE in some respects but the bizarre lyrical content focuses on things like troubled footballer Paul Gascoigne rather than sex crimes, intense politics and concentration camps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Gascoigne#Personal_life
I also think there are too many people making music, but it doesn't bother me as long as I don't have to listen to it all...
There are not enough statements being made about how horribly corny drone music became a few years ago - seemed like every show I went to between 2000-2008 there were some sub-Tony Conrad hipster kids making faux-spiritual and very bland sounds. That annoyed me far more than the cliches of PE or black metal could ever do.
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on July 18, 2012, 12:57:18 AM
I also think there are too many people making music, but it doesn't bother me as long as I don't have to listen to it all...
What does it mean "too many"? When was the best time with number of PE acts? Probably, according to BEST, in the beginning of 80s when were 5 groups. Total bullshit.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 18, 2012, 01:55:18 AM
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on July 18, 2012, 12:57:18 AM
I also think there are too many people making music, but it doesn't bother me as long as I don't have to listen to it all...
What does it mean "too many"? When was the best time with number of PE acts? Probably, according to BEST, in the beginning of 80s when were 5 groups. Total bullshit.
Too many people making every type of music, just too much music! Too much indie/dance/metal/noise-PE/reggae/punk/jazz/soul, too much of everything and too much mediocre stuff and no time to listen to it all.
I do have a great love for all the 80s pioneers of PE myself but also think some good stuff has been done since then and although the field has been narrowed and formularized some artists can find a way of working within those limits and making something special.
Just on a purely personal aesthetic level I love the sounds. I got a copy of that 'White Eye of Winter Watching' compilation recently - simply a joy to listen to and pump up the volume - not to mention the stunning packaging on the special edition. Going yet further off topic, my only contribution to the S&Q track on there was alerting Milovan to a porn movie which could be sampled, he also used it extensively on 'Powerfuck' and that French compilation 7" & CD which I have somewhere...the original movie seems to have been taken offline but here is one by the same director. Still can't decide if he is East Lancashire or West Yorkshire. There are some gems of dialect in this but the other one with the Polish 'schoolgirl' was even funnier. http://xhamster.com/movies/60863/traceys_first_anal_sex.html