This topic is splitted from Bizarre Uproar/Deathkey split LP announcement. -ModeratorQuote from: Tommy Carlsson on June 01, 2010, 09:49:34 AM
Quote from: ADR on June 01, 2010, 09:23:24 AM$35 p/p in the US/CAN
$45 p/p everywhere else
Wow, you really don't want people to buy this, do you?
This release was highly expensive to create. Price is postage paid. Covers are not regular jackets but rather heavy black board that were hand screen printed. This entire package weighs more than a regular lp. Don't like it, don't buy it.
Quote from: ADR on June 01, 2010, 11:03:00 AMDon't like it, don't buy it.
Another way of saying...
(http://imgur.com/sTUv9.jpg)
Ah, just kidding. Good luck selling those heavy LPs man :-)
Anyway prices are pretty itchy...but the artists will repay in their sound inside this expensive one...yeah, for sure...it's BU..it's DeathKey...
Quote from: linxtyx on June 01, 2010, 03:15:22 PM
the artists will repay in their sound inside this expensive one
Do you mean Pasi will send me part of my money back upon listening to the LP?
BU, okay. Deathkey I've always found to be overrated. Anyway, vynal costs, that's all there is to it, and this is a release for the commited only. I'm not that thrilled with vynal, myself.
Quote from: bogskaggmannen on June 01, 2010, 03:28:41 PM
Quote from: linxtyx on June 01, 2010, 03:15:22 PM
the artists will repay in their sound inside this expensive one
Do you mean Pasi will send me part of my money back upon listening to the LP?
repay in sound - I said :) anyway it was all sarcastic I must say, due to ban further interpretations.
Before the Euro dropped it cost just about the same to get LPs from Scandinavia anyways. At least it ain't Rose Pillar pricey.
Looks nice, see how much it will cost from Pasi then. 45 Dollar is bit expensive :/
Quote from: ADR on June 01, 2010, 11:03:00 AMCovers are not regular jackets but rather heavy black board that were hand screen printed.
Same as the BizarreSSMania? That's a sharp looking/feeling cover, for sure. (doesn't mean I'm giving anyone fucking $35 for an LP, though; and at that kind of price, I think I could do without such a cover)
The price for the US/CAN is with priority shipping approx $7 - $10
The price for mailing 1 outside of North America is approx $15-$17.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 01, 2010, 06:12:19 PM
Quote from: ADR on June 01, 2010, 11:03:00 AMCovers are not regular jackets but rather heavy black board that were hand screen printed.
Same as the BizarreSSMania? That's a sharp looking/feeling cover, for sure. (doesn't mean I'm giving anyone fucking $35 for an LP, though; and at that kind of price, I think I could do without such a cover)
Covers are not quite like those. Mikko created something very unique with those 2 releases. These are heavy 5 point black board with with plastic based screen print inks. You can feel the ink on the covers.
I think BizarreSSmania LP, if you could retail 15 euro + shipping 21 to overseas = 36 euro.. I guess with current rates is 46 USD? Normally LP could be shipped for 13e overseas if it weights less than half kilo with packaging. Still.. 37 USD ppd?
I guess that's about the price one has to accept if they want noise LP that's pressed realistic amount to sell.
At least I can't do much cheaper (than 15euro+ship). Otherwise you'll be doing it for loss of money, which isn't best way to run label. I recall recent LP's I bought from sweden for wholesale costs all in all 12 euro. Retail of 15 with tax included meant I got like 0,30 euro "profit" per copy when selling it. Which is the optimistic calculation. Considering the rounded down shipping rate deals, packaging included in price, etc... well, if anyone order just those LP's they were sold at loss. If order something else, other titles may compensate. And I still know I couldn't bitch label about their pricing, which was simply related to costs of doing it. But perhaps people could bitch about my prices, even if I sold at loss?
Of course one can always wonder how RRR can sell their 200 copies LP's for 12$ or such, but I would guess it is compensated with other titles with better profit margin? I personally would hope vinyl wouldn't survive only from charity, but could live with realities there are. I can't see factories lowering their prices and post gets up about ever 12 months. So I guess in few years standard prices for LP made less than 500 will be atrocious.
I hope to get this title for sale and hope to be able to offer good deal for european customers. I can promise I can't compete with overseas prices. I have heard the BU side of this split and it is very strong material. More structured PE form.
You're obviously entitled to charge whatever you want for an LP. I just wonder why you try to justify the price based on production cost. Even taking into account the included postage the price is still > 10$ more expensive than a normal US LP. Does it really cost more than 10 bucks a piece to manufacture the covers? Maybe it does but somehow I would be expecting something really extraordinary for this price...
Now, if you would say that your profit margin for this release is different (for whatever reason) than is the norm for the noise scene... I'd be cool with that. Especially if the money goes mainly to the artists.
Just wondering why the Metal heads can make lower Prices with mostly Awesome Packages?
Someone have an Idea about that?
As Example -> Nuclear War Now Records:
(http://www.nwnprod.com/catalog/images/Abominator%20die%20hard.JPG)
New Abominator "Barbarian War Worship" Die Hard DLP for 25 Dollar + Postage.
Gatefold jacket, A2 poster, 12"x12" insert, patch, sticker and double red vinyl LPs.
So far i know are these Pressed at CZ, so it is shipped from Europe->US and then
again to Europe if someone buy it.
Hah. That was a hit directly to the groin..
Quote from: Goat93 on June 01, 2010, 08:40:01 PM
Just wondering why the Metal heads can make lower Prices with mostly Awesome Packages?
Someone have an Idea about that?
Bigger editions.
its just a point, i don't understand, so i ask about it. Its not my intention to make a Punch in any direction or something. But the Question about it should be legitime, since there are plenty other examples out there. I can also take Whitehouse LPs, which are really expensive and cocainacopia rex
with Dead reptile shrine Dlp or Isolationist LP, which looks both awesome and are not expensive.
Or denovali records with really insane limitation/offerings and for that normal prices.
Here as example celeste - Morte(s) Nee(s)
100 on picture disc with gold print 2xLP
200 on black with gold print and screen print on d side 2xLP
200 on white vinyl with black haze and gold print 2xLP
100 on picture disc with copper print 2xLP
200 on brown vinyl with black haze and copper print 2xLP
200 on clear vinyl with black haze and copper print.
LP's come in heavy gatefold covers and printed discobags. Discobags are printed
in wither gold or copper.
CD with copper covers limited to 333 copies
CD with white covers limited to 333 copies
CD with golden covers limited to 333 copies
CD's on thick cardboard gatefold covers.
A Double Picture LP costs 20Euro+Postage ;)
Quote from: NIKOZ on June 01, 2010, 08:56:22 PM
Quote from: Goat93 on June 01, 2010, 08:40:01 PM
Just wondering why the Metal heads can make lower Prices with mostly Awesome Packages?
Someone have an Idea about that?
Bigger editions.
no, there are even plenty about 200 or 300 Editions ;)
Bottom line, you don't want to pay and support the label/artists, then don't.
Quote from: ADR on June 01, 2010, 08:59:26 PM
Bottom line, you don't want to pay and support the label/artists, then don't.
This is not the point. My question is clear, so should be also the answer. If someone
want 100 Dollar for a 7" and claim that all people won't support the Label/Artist i think
its just childish behavour, but no real argument, why he claim to need 100$
Quote from: Goat93 on June 01, 2010, 08:59:12 PM
its just a point, i don't understand, so i ask about it. Its not my intention to make a Punch in any direction or something. But the Question about it should be legitime, since there are plenty other examples out there. I can also take Whitehouse LPs, which are really expensive and cocainacopia rex
with Dead reptile shrine Dlp or Isolationist LP, which looks both awesome and are not expensive.
Or denovali records with really insane limitation/offerings and for that normal prices.
Here as example celeste - Morte(s) Nee(s)
100 on picture disc with gold print 2xLP
200 on black with gold print and screen print on d side 2xLP
200 on white vinyl with black haze and gold print 2xLP
100 on picture disc with copper print 2xLP
200 on brown vinyl with black haze and copper print 2xLP
200 on clear vinyl with black haze and copper print.
LP's come in heavy gatefold covers and printed discobags. Discobags are printed
in wither gold or copper.
CD with copper covers limited to 333 copies
CD with white covers limited to 333 copies
CD with golden covers limited to 333 copies
CD's on thick cardboard gatefold covers.
A Double Picture LP costs 20Euro+Postage ;)
I'm pretty sure Mikko laid it out above. a small label that releases a handful of releases a year can never sell releases for the same cost that a large label with multiple releases a year. The more you make, the more costs go down. Gang runs, factory made jackets in huge bulk runs etc etc contribute.
Quote from: Goat93 on June 01, 2010, 08:40:01 PM
Just wondering why the Metal heads can make lower Prices with mostly Awesome Packages?
Someone have an Idea about that?
He has a built-in, loony, fools-part-with-their-money fanbase that: 1) buys his diehards, no matter how they look or how much they cost, so they quickly sell out 2) offsets the diehard packaging with $15+/- normal version LPs 3) offsets the entire situation with CDs, which funnily enough, for which he only charges $5 4) and once he knows he's caught most of the business with a particular album, he lowers his prices to the floor so he can pull in all the people who were on the fence about the release. That reason 4 is particularly business savvy. It does him absolutely no good to sit on product and be stubborn about getting $15 for a piece of merchandise. He drops the cost to $6 for an LP. That $6 in his pocket is a lot more useful to his business than getting nothing for that LP as it sits in his stock and collects dust. It shouldn't be considered a loss, either. That's staying liquid and being very smart about your market and how business can work FOR you and not against you.
Nuclear War Now is a unique situation; so unique that other labels have tried and tried to use his model as a new direction for their business. And metalheads have always been stupid with their money. $20-30 T-shirts years and years ago. Honest-to-goodness love for picture discs. People collecting every color, or every version, of the same LP. Being cognitively deficient sort of makes the wallet open a lot easier.
The micro-pressing culture of noise is strangling itself. People like to buy things, but people also have their limits. If things don't reverse and somehow work towards a label being able to stretch its costs over 500 units rather than 250, then 200, then 150, then 100 -as the pricing slowly deteriorates the consumer base- then lots of things are going to drastically suffer. quality. interest. etc.
How many things has Pasi released in 2010? It seems like he's the Agathocles of noise/PE.
Quote from: Goat93 on June 01, 2010, 09:01:40 PM
Quote from: ADR on June 01, 2010, 08:59:26 PM
Bottom line, you don't want to pay and support the label/artists, then don't.
This is not the point. My question is clear, so should be also the answer. If someone
want 100 Dollar for a 7" and claim that all people won't support the Label/Artist i think
its just childish behavour, but no real argument, why he claim to need 100$
This lp in the states is approx $25. With priority shipping, packaging etc the price goes to $35. And yes, this is a matter of supporting the label and artists. Without support labels can not go on. The cost that went into the release must be made back, and a profit must be made. No other releases would happen without.
You're not willing to offer the Media Mail option? That alone could drop it to $30.
Always like to support the artists, but this idea of closet labels needing profit, and then claiming that profit is the only way they can do more releases...well...poppycock. I suppose when you are steadfast in the idea of $25 LPs being the only way you can do another release, there is some logic to it. Other folks can make $3, $4, $5 on an LP and consider the few hundred dollar profit to be acceptable, also factoring the fun of running a label, the satisfying experience of working with artists, and the overall life experience of it all. But then if your profit is $10+, and you're now making $1000+ an a small-run LP, the eyes get big, and the label takes on a much different perspective.
QuoteAnd metalheads have always been stupid with their money
Hmm, you think Noise People won't pay so much for the Releases?
Whats with all the other Labels out there? There are plenty of little Metal Labels with LP Releases. All unique?
To clear it to a point. Lim. ~200 LP with normal Inner Sleeve and sometimes + Poster costs on a Bigger or Smaller Label around 13-15€ in Europe. Its equal if the Label is big or its not big, mostly the people won't pay really much more for a Standart LP. The Bigger Labels were also Small in the Beginning and have had also LP's with normal Prices.
QuoteThe cost that went into the release must be made back
Thats the Point, i don't understand the Costs after all. Or are the Pressing Plants so different in Prices?
Why do you pay for a LP+2 Inlets the Same as Cocainophobia with a Double LP and UV Gatefold Cover + Coloured Vinyl?
Maybe i'm too naive, but it must have a reason why it is so...It is not specially with your Label, i want to know in generell, the same Question is also with Tesco Organisation or other Labels in this Music Genre. It is about the whole Scene, if you want so. Tesco is not really a small Label, Dark Vinyl is also not really a Small Label.
edit: I'm not interested in the Question about Profit, i don't care much about it. It depends only about the differences between the Prices in Metal and Noise Scene.
Quote from: Goat93 on June 01, 2010, 09:21:48 PMHmm, you think Noise People won't pay so much for the Releases?
Basic business premise: the higher the price, regardless of content, the fewer number of people who are willing, or able, to pay.
Quote from: Goat93 on June 01, 2010, 09:21:48 PMedit: I'm not interested in the Question about Profit, i don't care much about it. It depends only about the differences between the Prices in Metal and Noise Scene.
Profit is clearly playing a significant role in pricing. It's not something that can be ignored.
will this be rereleased? ;-)
QuoteQuote from: Goat93 on Today at 08:21:48 PM
Hmm, you think Noise People won't pay so much for the Releases?
Basic business premise: the higher the price, regardless of content, the fewer number of people who are willing, or able, to pay.
Quote from: Goat93 on Today at 08:21:48 PM
edit: I'm not interested in the Question about Profit, i don't care much about it. It depends only about the differences between the Prices in Metal and Noise Scene.
Profit is clearly playing a significant role in pricing. It's not something that can be ignored.
1. Not really true, since look at some Metal labels like HmSS ;)
2. sure, but i don't care much about it, as i said, its about the "whole scene" and not a
single Label. I don't think that everyone wanna make total big profit, but there are not
so much Price differences in the Labels, ok some like RRR, thats true of course.
what's all this Priority Mail talk? Why not offer Media Mail and reduce the price $5.
I think maybe we could have general vinyl pricing discussion elsewhere in own topic?
I think most of these message should be maybe divided to "economics of noise" topic, like in noisefanatics in quite similar case?
Good points being made..
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 01, 2010, 09:16:35 PM
release, there is some logic to it. Other folks can make $3, $4, $5 on an LP and consider the few hundred dollar profit to be acceptable, also factoring the fun of running a label, the satisfying experience of working with artists, and the overall life experience of it all. But then if your profit is $10+, and you're now making $1000+ an a small-run LP, the eyes get big, and the label takes on a much different perspective.
I think problem of this calculation is, it assumes it's retail only. And if label presses for example 300, send out 60 to band. Perhaps gives up few copies for other close comrades. Trades 50, wholesales 150. Retails... 30? Trade copies are nearly non profit. The international shipping and getting something in trade. It's pretty much non profit. Wholesale, will bring you probably mere couple $ per unit. The last few you actually retail, might bring 5... perhaps even 10,- But in the end, the bottom line "profit" can still remain quite non-existent. Even if it looks nice on paper and the retail price looks atrocious.
And why I personally consider non-discount/"regular" retail price good idea?
This is the reason:
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 01, 2010, 09:03:34 PM
He has a built-in, loony, fools-part-with-their-money fanbase that: 1) buys his diehards, no matter how they look or how much they cost, so they quickly sell out 2) offsets the diehard packaging with $15+/- normal version LPs 3) offsets the entire situation with CDs, which funnily enough, for which he only charges $5 4) and once he knows he's caught most of the business with a particular album, he lowers his prices to the floor so he can pull in all the people who were on the fence about the release. That reason 4 is particularly business savvy. It does him absolutely no good to sit on product and be stubborn about getting $15 for a piece of merchandise. He drops the cost to $6 for an LP. That $6 in his pocket is a lot more useful to his business than getting nothing for that LP as it sits in his stock and collects dust. It shouldn't be considered a loss, either. That's staying liquid and being very smart about your market and how business can work FOR you and not against you.
This is the typical mainstream label behavior. You release item. You press relative big run, you charge the best price you can. From customers, from retailers, from wholesalers..... And suddenly when they find themselves in position of not being able to move units, they drop the value below midprice. The customers learn, why bother to pay full price, when midprice is obligatory thing coming from everything else but hottest bestsellers that are destined to sell out in days.
Retailers & wholesalers learn that customer know this, and they vary on taking any more items than it's absolutely mandatory. If they know LP would be 15,- for next 10 years, they could probably buy plenty. If they can assume that within relatively short amount of time, publisher retail is CHEAPER than wholesale they paid... what's the point? Why take 10 or 20 in first place. Then rather take 3 and get rid of them before it's discount bin carbage.
Label keeps winning, but at the time any partner he has in operation, is kind of pissed on. I know, it's anyones own choise what they will charge, when and how, but if they want to allow distributors chance to distribute, I believe price structure needs to be, that original label and distributor can sell it for almost the same price. The little higher price local distributor has, is still fine due role of shipping.
I could sell my releases cheaper. Of course. But if I would charge retail what I now charge wholesale... well, I see no point doing that. There would be absolutely no distributors left for items, other than those discount item traders and perhaps option to trade 2 of yours vs. 1 of someone elses in european "market". And I doubt it would heavily increase direct sales.
I think any label in noise who does vinyl, who have tried to do no-distribution, direct sale only, have failed? At least so many, that those who succeed seem to be exceptions to rule?
NWN's 5$ cd is the type of thing, that his wholesale is 5$, his retail is 5$ (+post?) it makes you wonder why should I buy them? Who would buy them from me? And if I trade, release that cost me more to make than 5$, is now creating this idea to other labels, why should they pay my wholesale, if label next to them is selling below my wholesale? As said, everybody has right to run their labels as they please, but at the same time it seems selfish method, where all label care is how they sell and how they move product. And what I recall Yosuke mentioning not so long ago, was the necessity of bigger warehouse since stocks keep piling up and records don't move as fast as they could.
I personally try to balance somewhere between the cheap and expensive. I trust in what I call "regular price". Price I have had since I started Freak Animal. Even when wages go up, manufacturing goes up, shipping goes up. Change from showbox hobby to tax paying full size mailorder and retail shop. And I believe my LP's & CD's are the same as they were 10+ years ago? This standard has been quite dominating among finnish labels, and perhaps used to be worldwide.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 01, 2010, 09:03:34 PM
Nuclear War Now is a unique situation; so unique that other labels have tried and tried to use his model as a new direction for their business. And metalheads have always been stupid with their money. $20-30 T-shirts years and years ago. Honest-to-goodness love for picture discs. People collecting every color, or every version, of the same LP. Being cognitively deficient sort of makes the wallet open a lot easier.
I know what you mean. I don't know many noise people who collect all different versions existing of release. And there doesn't even exists culture to such degree that releases would be cashed in. In metal it is mandatory to do "die-hard" of everything. And most often it consists nothing but useless junk. Most pathetic perhaps recently Watain special CD.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 01, 2010, 09:03:34 PM
The micro-pressing culture of noise is strangling itself. People like to buy things, but people also have their limits. If things don't reverse and somehow work towards a label being able to stretch its costs over 500 units rather than 250, then 200, then 150, then 100 -as the pricing slowly deteriorates the consumer base- then lots of things are going to drastically suffer. quality. interest. etc.
I do agree that this might be the case. But I personally see that other reasons, like shipping rates, affect to such a degree, that whether LP costs 15 or 20, doesn't make much difference anymore when shipping makes it too much anyways. I know nobody likes 10-20€ 7"s, but can you find 500 people to buy 7" for 5,-? It would have to be change on entire culture. So there are more labels to trade their big editions to get releases closer to customer. To make editions so big distributors can actually afford to buy it wholesale and still retail for decent price to justify buying. So it all doesn't have to go simply on "supporting artist" as if it was one way street.
It seems like undoable situation. There won't be many labels willing to do it. And perhaps also that recent discussion of "playing times of good recording" is one topic to remember. Culture where publishing favors the ultimate micro releases with little if any efforts. How to convince such label he should invest XXXX$ on 10-15 years plan? In times when everybody yells recorded music is about to die and nobody buys stuff anymore. And labels who buy guaranteed best sellers, how you convince them invest on some new releases of artists who is great, but not yet
known? It won't be very amusing situation when you contacted everybody you know, and managed to sell 20 copies on wholesale. If you have 980 more copies to try push somewhere.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 01, 2010, 09:03:34 PM
How many things has Pasi released in 2010? It seems like he's the Agathocles of noise/PE.
Bizarre Uproar? According to what I know.. I think 3rd just came out and now this 4th. I guess in noise standards, that ain't too bad when actual recordings also stretch over longer period of time and there was "just" 3 in 2009. Perhaps WOM and DK splits could have been the full length, and "lily the flesh" is so different from most of works, that no matter how many releases there was before, it seems very justified new release. Very nice full length tape album, just as I like.
Not that it is anyone's business, but since some seem generally interested in what goes into a release such as this, here is the breakdown of the split lp:
COVERS:
- Buying board from paper mill (CHARGE)
- Having board cut to size at paper mill (CHARGE)
- Having board mailed across the country from mill to screen printer (PACKING and FREIGHT CHARGE)
- Screen printer set up (screens and special ink ordered to print to board) (CHARGE)
- Screen impressions per board fee (CHARGE)
- Having finished covers boxed up and shipped to ADR (PACKING and FREIGHT CHARGE)
INSERTS:
- Finding printer to print material such as Swastikas, jew corpses/executions, the word "Aryan"
- 3 tries. 1 found.
- Offset prepress, pdf proofing and printing set up at plant (CHARGE)
- Printing of inserts (CHARGE)
- Cut-to-size of final prints (CHARGE)
- Packing and shipping to ADR (PACKING and FREIGHT CHARGE)
VINYL:
- Both audio masters sent to outside mastering tech (CHARGE)
- Mp3 samples of mastering (CHARGE)
- Final master disc to be sent to plant (CHARGE)
- When then to vinyl plant, anyone who presses vinyl knows how much this is. Plating, additional mastering, tests presses, center labels, stampers etc etc etc.
- 180 gram vinyl pressing (CHARGE)
- Shipping vinyl to ADR (PACKING and FREIGHT CHARGE)
EXTRANEOUS COSTS:
- Packing and shipping royalty copies to Finland
- Buying plastic sleeves for all 300 copies
- Buying lp mailers/tape etc
Then to assembling each copy.
A good majority of labels do something simple as sending a package to Pirates Press and having them do all of the work in a one shit deal. Then charged once. With the imagery and content of both DEATHKEY and BIZARRE UPROAR, these bigger plants are not an option. I have been turned down by PIRATES PRESS no less than 6 times in the past. Hence, making the release piece by piece by whomever will do the best work and also have no problem with content.
And no media mail as an option as after running another label on top of ADR fo the last 9 years, far too many media mail packages have gone lost, damaged or not arriving until 3 months after the purchase, which leads to paypal charge backs, paypal account locks, loss of support etc etc etc. Priority gets it there within 1 week and never any problems. Always safe.
Again, support the labels and bands or do not.
And I should maybe say this:
if there is anyone, anywhere, who can offer valuable advice how and where to get items made cheap but good. Any advice who are the good distributors to contact if you want to sell outside the usual core of "noise scene" to move more copies. Any advice on strategy how to make label work for decade(s) without necessity to feed all your own possessions into process. I'm all ears. And this is no joke. I really welcome every bit of valuable information and I'm sure so does many others.
I will split the topic in near future when seeing what turns it takes.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 01, 2010, 11:36:18 PM
Any advice who are the good distributors to contact if you want to sell outside the usual core of "noise scene" to move more copies. Any advice on strategy how to make label work for decade(s) without necessity to feed all your own possessions into process.
dont know about goodness but aurora b : http://aurora-b.com/intro.php is a crossover type of place. also bm distros are more and more open to weirder stuff it seems. at least if the product your pushing is even remotely in the same league. proper industrial, power electronics and or some esoteric shit.
there might be some clever jewiness business wise that can be done but a word from a regular consumer with a foresking is to include a plain cdr of the audio with the vinyl. I fucking guarantee more moved copies as a result. if putting a cdr with every copy is "too much" then atleast make it a possibility, when requested etc
There should be some sort of social justice for record labels & their evil profits...
300 pressed for an album at that price seems a bit much. I thought the pressing was going to be like 100-150?
These might end up sitting around in a lot of distros for a while, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If the material is strong then it's no problem. Looking forward to hearing it, maybe something from Deathkey in the vein of the "Revolt Against The Modern World" track from the last album?
I have np paying this. I'm actually happy there are 300, as I can't afford it just yet, so hopefully it's around for a minute.
This was supposed to only be 200 copies but the 2 plants utilized will not press any less than 300 now. They actually would like to keep everything at 500 units and above, and scoff at 300 which is the base minimum.
Also, from sales today, most who are interested in this release are buying distro items and adding them to save on postage. Plenty of FREAK ANIMAL, INDUSTRIAL RECOLLECTIONS, FILTH&VIOLENCE and HOSPITAL titles to choose from.
Quote from: ADR on June 02, 2010, 04:31:14 AM
This was supposed to only be 200 copies but the 2 plants utilized will not press any less than 300 now. They actually would like to keep everything at 500 units and above, and scoff at 300 which is the base minimum.
Do the pressing plants allow you to split the total amount among a few different recordings? Meaning can you order 300 but have it be 3 different albums, each with 100 pressed?
That method would require you to hold back releases until you had enough total units to go to press, but would give you some flexibility. An edition of 500 just seems like way too much for this kind of music, unless it's exceptional material. 100-250 range seems about right, unless you want the release sitting in distros for 5+ years (which like I said before isn't necessarily a bad thing, if the material is great then it
should be easily attainable for a good length of time).
Quote from: RG on June 02, 2010, 08:29:31 AMDo the pressing plants allow you to split the total amount among a few different recordings? Meaning can you order 300 but have it be 3 different albums, each with 100 pressed?
No, nothing in manufacturing works like that. For records in particular, it doesn't work like that for pressing or printing. Most of the cost and down-time at a factory is for set up and calibration. You can't combine orders to meet minimum numbers.
Yeah, like Zeno says. If you make cd, doing 300 or 1000 is about the same price. Only vinyl doing 100, 200 or 500 is almost the same price. It's all about set up fee, preparation, etc. When big machines are rolling, the actual replication doesn't cost much. Even in CD replication, price between 200 and 300 might be.. 30$? One can ask why not then do "100 more" if it's covered by 3 copies sold? Well, line has to be drawn somewhere. And I would believe it is case of how much you think you sell, how many copies you can hold in storage for how long, etc.
I believe getting a discount from pressing plant, is absurd idea. Considering it seems to be nuisance for them to even do small editions. Why should they give discount to one who tries to do below the minimum runs? Nowadays the minimum run is priced nearly the same as 500 copies. Factories seem to urge you to take 500, but allow less. Some factories have all the additional surcharges applied when you do small edition.
Perhaps one should force sell 3 copies in one order :D Customer pays 1 LP but gets 3. Then give to his friends. For publisher it could be about the same cost, but perhaps expand range of listeners. Perhaps could be project worth to try!
Tape and CDR you can make small editions, but I think in those formats the profit margin is much better than on LP on any edition. I would rather complain about 10$ tape/cdr than 30$ LP.
I personally like to use local place as much as possible. I could use the standard factory covers and packaging. Sometimes it would be cheaper and perhaps more professional, but doesn't fit into my concept of what my labels are. In case of packaging such as Deathkey 2xLP or BizarreSSmania, I walk into smallfactory in Lahti. Start to check out samples of speciality cardboards they need to import. Place order for raw materials. I prepare files. Go to boss of factory, who goes to another business to 2nd guy to get films printed. Then he gives films to 3rd guy who prepares the screens and prints each copy with machine size of regular flat. Including owen what heats the color so it really stucks in cardboard. 4th guy operates the huge vintage pneumatic machine to fold & cut plastic, cardboard to shape. One by one. And I can monitor each step of project when it starts, to see it matches my idea how it should be. If there are 4 guys earning their salary on manually printing 250 covers, one can believe, it simply ain't cheap.
When I do my digital prints or offset prints, I have contract with local printer. Lisence to use their machinery and get billed for it. During c. decade I have learned many of the tricks of printing, preparing files, cutting, and whatever, so often I do it faster and better by myself, but could never afford to buy machines that costs more than house. Most of covers are designed, prepared, printed and then creased, folded and cut and hand assembled by yours truly. I believe they look just as I personally want. I don't aim for look like supermarket product, but something that gives impression of self made - but decent. I have build contacts and own tool arsenal over the years big enough to manage to do many thing in house and most things near by. Of course, creasing even CD inlay manually takes endless amount of time. When you got like 2000 covers to crease & fold & pack. But the choise has been mine to do so. There is old man operating print post production house just couple streets from where I live, so for future bigger runs, I may ask his assistance.
One could always think, lets everybody do everything in china and sell cheap. I rather keep prices ok'ish and support the local operations and independent methods and perhaps leave the mark of "hand made" even to something that's usually bulk industrial product.
To Vulpes:
I personally slightly wonder this CDR with LP thing. As I do the download slip. I personally release LP exclusively: to be listened. I don't want to promote idea, that LP is collectable format, and actual listening happens in some "more convenient" way on computer, cd player, ipod, etc. If that's the case, I would rather release album as LP/CD which allow customer to choose format he prefers from options that I personally as music listener use. I think there should be torrents that distribute files of FA releases people are free to use if they want to listen just the sounds. Also any bloggers are free to upload any new/old FA titles (please do good transfers!) online. Digital file users can take from there without feeling guilt.
If you get nervous about having a lot of records at home you should stick with tapes and CDrs in small editions. It took us (Segerhuva) eight years to sell out Alphaville and Romantic and Deranged by Government Alpha and BLOD. I'm really glad that we did make the effort and that they where available for a long time from us. I've been involved in releases that was gone in matter on of seconds upon release and won't do that again since like people to be able to get the music I like.
When we started Segerhuva we were reacting to the publishing policies of the day. Labels like WKN and world serpent related labels made small and very expensive releases. We felt it was just a big rip off so instead we released two noise vinyls in big editions (500 was big at the time). Not the smartest move financial but I don't regret it for a second. Some of our later CD releases was maybe a bit over the top but you could do sniffdics on editions smaller than a 1000...
Asking people to "keep records at home for 10 years" is argument similar to ask people to support label by paying triple price. Some have possibility, others don't. I've seen possibilities of labels in big cities. cramped tiny apartments, and they simply don't have possibility to keep 300 LP's of each their release in storage. If it's up to either do on realistic manner or not do at all.. I guess I prefer the first option. Nevertheless I do hail Segerhuva for amazing job they did. Or do. Something like G.A. LP is prime example which one would hope to be aimed for if there is possibility to do so. But I guess multiple guys running label, is one option rarely used which also makes it possible that it isn't such a heavy burden on one familyman :P
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 02, 2010, 09:59:55 AM
I personally release LP exclusively: to be listened. I don't want to promote idea, that LP is collectable format, and actual listening happens in some "more convenient" way on computer, cd player, ipod, etc.
im not advocating collectables especially with FA who at least nowdays might eventually put out a cd version also but as a strategy for smaller labels to make proffit.
theres people like myself who will eventually buy record players and new furniture to house them but by that time many releases are long gone. in this case the possibility of having the audio on cdr would generate 20 or even much more new customers. Id think thats worth it for someone struggling, to have that money go in your pocket. thats also a tactic. wholesale or trade regulars but offer a chance of getting the cdr when ordered directly from the label.
It's a shame the pressing plants won't accommodate the smaller press runs and give you a fair price for it. With the mainstream "resurgence" of vinyl in the past 5 years or so, you'd think there would be some flexibility.
I wonder if a small operation that specialized in small runs would be a viable business option nowadays? Not talking lathe-cut or whatever, i'm talking a legit record pressing machine. Small operation meaning like 2, 3, or even just 1 person. You probably wouldn't be able to offer all the services that a big plant does, but you can always outsource or workaround some of that stuff like mastering and making the master plate, etc...
You have to have a boiler's license, not to mention being incredibly handy and able to tool & dye very specific parts for the old pressing machines. If you can't do it, you'd have to fly in specialists to diagnose and repair the machines. The most important people in most factories are the maintenance folk, and you can multiply that importance with anything to do with pressing records. These are OLD machines we're talking about here.
And then there are environmental regulations that a new shop would likely get nailed with following, and thankfully so. It's not a nice manufacturing process. I'd love to see the nasty shit rolling out of GZ because I trust that the government there isn't exactly concerned with slowing down economic progress.
People greatly underestimate the complexity of the record pressing process, and there isn't a lot of "working around" the steps.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 02, 2010, 11:44:20 AM
Asking people to "keep records at home for 10 years" is argument similar to ask people to support label by paying triple price.
That's mostly not a reasonable comparison. You can rent small storage space for as little as $20/month. Or rent a corner of a friend's basement for a few bucks. Having backstock is a nominal problem...I mean, we're talking about running a record label. It's like a mechanic bitching about needing tools or something.
But also mechanic might be able to choose what exactly he specializes? Some does bikes. Other cars. If someone specialises on LP's that move pretty quick, it's fine with me. Like Urashima label for example. 100 copies LP's of wall noise. I wouldn't expect him to do 500 each and rent storage.
About vinyl pressing, I think there are different size and different standard companies. I know people there might be some people who consider good plants & printers are trade secrets, but this is place one my friend used for black metal and was satisfied. I forwarded info to F&V who pressed SNUFF 7" there. I think both releases sounded nice. Total home pressing plant for 7"s only. In germany.
http://www.my45.de/
check out video of their factory build in house: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPpfoRceGe8
I think it's quite similar like www.amei.se which is another german independent 7" pressingplant.
Never used either myself. I know many who have done at Amei, for example Harbinger.
Both do only 7", and pressing starting from 100. If you're ok with whitelabel with cheap cover, it ain't bad. But with replication, taxes, shipping, if making 100x7" it will still be probably 4euro (5,20$) each to make. Giving out artists royalties etc, I'd think unit manufacturing around 5 euro (/6,50$) each.
To see how actual metalworks are done (in traditional method), youtube offer several documents about vinyl manufacturing.
From europe, I can say that Amei can be slow, but relaxed. my45 seems little faster, but not much difference. GZ has been always good for me, I have no complaints. Vinylium is quite new and seems to have some fuck-ups in quality of vinyl. MMP looks nice quite often, BUT sooo many times impurities/dust particels or whatever cause small bubles in vinyl - which may not affect sound, but look alarming. But even more alarming the the amount of out-of-center releases which seem to be utterly random. Same pressing may have atrociously wowwing LP's and just perfect ones. I would avoid them. Eldorado does very good sounding and very professional looking records. Celebrate seems pretty good. Some complained of sound problems, but all I have heard seems very nice. Who else? Audiowerker? Domination Records? I guess there are still few factories in UK, France,... Italy? I recall label who did Aryan Terrorism LP gave compliments for some obscure pressing plant in Italy since they would cheaply print utmost explicit nazi LP's with zero complaints. Never heard anyone else to talk about that place. Some secret mob bootleg place? ;)
There is LP cover printer in... Holland or Belgium who is sub-contracted by many of the record pressingplants. I did some direct cover orders from them. Lots of options, good communications. Saves you from middleman grabbing money, but have to pack them yourself. Can also order blank LP sleeves if you want to paste-on / silkscreen yourself.
All these will do the job for you from start to finish if you want. Mastering & pressing. If you want some special cut for vinyl, there are some famous good cutters out there, which will perhaps take more detailed care about each and every project. But I have very little to complain any of factories mentioned above, if you just follow their guidelines. Which seems to be something, people don't do, which may cause poor results.
Anyone wanting to give a shot to put out good noise vinyl, I can forward further contact infos! Americans can check out noisefanatics diy section and I believe it has the info where and how to make records.
Cheap CD's are being made everywhere, anytime, any country. Should be no problem.
Some companies require you to get lisence from domestic copyright organisation to press there. If it's copyright free material, application is free of charge, but has to be done or they won't press it. In Finland it's obviously Teosto. I guess scandinavia its NCB, and so on. When you have filled this, none of factories care are you official business or just self-financing. It just affects the price (due VAT).
It does keep me wondering, why in the countries where all the factories are located and all the possibilities are close & cheapest, seems to happen less?
In regards to the old pressing machines and the importance of having good maintenance people, I find it hard to believe that there hasn't been any advances in vinyl pressing in the last 20-30 years. Sure, some of those places are still running the old dinosaurs but there's got to be a modern option out there. I read something a while ago about how since 2007ish, the vinyl industry has had more business than they've had in the last 30 years, so there's got to be some up to date equipment out there (which I know is probably very expensive, but that is beside the point).
It's an interesting business opportunity, but perhaps a bit risky because who knows if vinyl is back for good now or if it will sink back into obscurity (talking about mainstream here)
Lathes?
Quote from: RG on June 03, 2010, 02:05:50 AM
In regards to the old pressing machines and the importance of having good maintenance people, I find it hard to believe that there hasn't been any advances in vinyl pressing in the last 20-30 years. Sure, some of those places are still running the old dinosaurs but there's got to be a modern option out there.
Again, I think folks would be surprised. They retrofitted the old equipment with electronics and whatnot. From what I understand, there is no new technology, as in buying a brand new pressing machine. It's all older, heavily used equipment that sits around until one of the established pressing plants absorbs the warehoused stuff of the plants that closed shop. Makes a lot more sense to work on a $100-200K old machine than to pay someone to build and test a brand new one for $1-2M. You don't see pressing machines come on the market very often because the bigger plants buy them for parts and for backup. Like I've been saying for a few years now, vinyl is 100% novelty, and the way the industry supports the demand is very much in line with novelty product. They use antiquated machinery and milk every bit out of it that they can, because it makes no business sense to overhaul a shop and prepare it for the next 100 years with the new. It's all on its last legs, and they're acting accordingly. I suspect that if Bill Smith wasn't a family business, they would have sold their equipment and closed shop a long time ago. I'm baffled that Bill Smith outlasted Alberti.
Records are a tiny market, even with the industry-generated hoopla about it making a big comeback. Places don't continue to close because it is an easy or greatly profitable business. Part of the reason these plants are so busy is because there are far fewer pressing plants worldwide. It only makes sense that the remaining few would be busier. Those of us into noise, metal, and HC live in a bubble. We have a false impression of how much market they actually hold.
Great points Zeno. Fans of underground music do live in a bubble, but you have to admit that the little resurgence of vinyl is interesting. I can walk into a Best Buy now and look at an entire rack of brand new albums and reissues of old ones. A format that was basically declared commercially dead 30 years ago. That never happened with tapes, 8-tracks, etc... and it won't happen with CDs either.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing in our culture, so that is a factor in it. The thing to wonder though: is it nostalgia like how bell-bottom jeans or mustaches come back in style or is it a different kind, related to the digitizing of our culture/media and the increase interest in vinyl is a reaction against that. If it's the former, then it's just a fad and it will be gone again in a few years, but if it's the latter then it might be something that lasts.
As far as lathe-cut releases, I've never owned one so I can't have an opinion on it. Don't they deteriorate quickly? And isn't the quality shit?
Quote from: RG on June 03, 2010, 04:39:16 AMbut you have to admit that the little resurgence of vinyl is interesting. I can walk into a Best Buy now and look at an entire rack of brand new albums and reissues of old ones.
I don't find corporate desperation all that interesting. It's just code for lies and manipulation. "Vinyl's back! Come get yours!!" Horsepucky. And do The Rolling Stones honestly need
moremoney?
I've got one lathe cut from King Records in NZ. A friend of mine from Japan started his own label and his first release was to be 60 of these 10" clear lathe cuts. The 4 months I spent in Japan I was on the phone once every two weeks asking where the records were. They kept telling me about their other big orders and so on. My friend Taka payed more to have them quicker and instead got stuck waiting for four months. That's fucking bullshit. They came right before I left Japan and I honestly I thought they really weren't that great. Very brittle and slim vinyl. The sound is pretty good but honestly the .wav master I have of my friends material sounds better. Plus I'm always afraid the record is just going to snap like a cracker. I was supposed to get a lathe cut from Jason Crumer over a year ago and supposedly there have been hold ups but I'm not sure if I'm just getting dicked around.
Final thought - fuck lathe cuts.
With 3000,- or such, you can buy your own lathe from german company. Blank discs, new cutting needles, etc. www.vinylrecorder.com
Many times thought, never did it. Price goes up everytime you add little improvments.
Grunt/Mutant Ape lathe is cut on vinyl 7" (ltd 20. I may have copy left. Came out years ago) with that machine by Audiowerker in germany. Sounds very good to me, considering what it is. Cut on vinyl, not acetate or plastic. And it is suprisinly good, since it ain't the real Neumann -type lathe, but just the "screw this to your DJ turntable" -model.
Like Zeno says about pressing vinyl, it goes to cuting lathes. This is work of true craftmanship. You can't expect it to be like burning CDR's or dubbing tapes what were designed to be done by anybody. Cutting vinyl master or lathe will need patience, attention, knowledge, not saving too much in your materials.. keeping places clean and so on. Cutting lathe is 1:1 real time + preparations. I could imagine cutting one 30min lathe being 60 min job. And not just letting it do it while you do dishes, but actively monitor things don't fuck up. I seriously don't envy Kings Records for having to listen all day everyday indie garbage and sit inside dark warehouse with 3 cutting lathes.
I believe all advances.. or lets say changes there's been made in records factories, is in mastering process. Not in pressing. Direct Metal Mastering option chosen by more people. Computer guided mastering processes from digital masters.
Pressing itself isn't complicated, but machine that smoothly does what it has to do, needs to be taken care.
Guy from CD factory said me once, vinyl is just like hobby. One can operate tiny vinyl factory with just 2 guys. On cd factory, machine spits out CD's non-stop, everyday. If machine ever is cooled down, it takes several hours to warm up until it can produce working CD's again. It throws out thousands of unusualble discs before that. I think daily capacity was... 100000 discs was it? Most cd places are just agents, who collect orders for this big factories. Very few have so much order they can to use machine in its full capacity.
QuotePerhaps one should force sell 3 copies in one order :D Customer pays 1 LP but gets 3. Then give to his friends. For publisher it could be about the same cost, but perhaps expand range of listeners. Perhaps could be project worth to try!
This is an amazing idea, actually perfect for a project I have been planning so I may well give it a go. Thanks for the inspiration!
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 02, 2010, 09:51:56 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 02, 2010, 11:44:20 AM
Asking people to "keep records at home for 10 years" is argument similar to ask people to support label by paying triple price.
That's mostly not a reasonable comparison. You can rent small storage space for as little as $20/month. Or rent a corner of a friend's basement for a few bucks. Having backstock is a nominal problem...I mean, we're talking about running a record label. It's like a mechanic bitching about needing tools or something.
Backstock can be a pain in the ass. For the moment i have most of my back catalog at our venue, and maybe 10% at home, and it's a mess. Travel back and forth. If i had enough with space i would much rather have everything at home. Logistics can be a nightmare. And it's time consuming. I just don't think renting a storage space just for this matter is a realistic solution for most. Depends on size of label etc i guess. I like the idea with a release being available for a long period of time, but today it makes more sense to start out with a smaller pressing amount and then repress if it sells well.
Vinyl pressing is always fun to discuss. Some thoughts on the european plants i have used:
GZ: I know people have very different opinions about the czechs, but i've never had any problems with them. Better and better with the communication over the years, and i think the final result is very good. Just be sure to upgrade the paper stock etc. The best thing is that they are fast, you usually have your records delivered 3 weeks from the day you shipped off the masters. Personally im always on a tight budget so if i can start to get money back on a certain release after 3 weeks insted of 5-6 that's something i value high. My biggest concern with GZ is the shitty labels they use, looks cheap, almost as printed on a crappy laserprinter.
Ameise: Good for shorter runs of 7"s and good prices. Qualitywise.. well, i guess they have their up and downs. Got a big bunch of copies scratched with a release a did with them, not sure what happened there but unplayable 7"s. Good to deal with though so i didn't have to pay for those copies obviously. Takes very long time and that's the biggest minus here. Expect 2-3 months for delivery.
Duophonic: Good quality, maybe a bit more expensive than GZ. First release i did with them came out great, on the second the covers could have been better. Outsourcing all printed material i think. Turnaround 4-6 weeks.
Record Industry: Again good quality, but a bit expensive. Based in the Netherlands i think. Only used them for one release so far. Happy with the final product, but not sure if it was worth the extra euros?
Eldorado: Used them for one release a long time ago, can't remember that much about their business. Vinyl sounded good.