Economics of noise publishing

[Zeno Marx]

Asking people to "keep records at home for 10 years" is argument similar to ask people to support label by paying triple price.

That's mostly not a reasonable comparison.  You can rent small storage space for as little as $20/month.  Or rent a corner of a friend's basement for a few bucks.  Having backstock is a nominal problem...I mean, we're talking about running a record label.  It's like a mechanic bitching about needing tools or something.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

But also mechanic might be able to choose what exactly he specializes? Some does bikes. Other cars. If someone specialises on LP's that move pretty quick, it's fine with me. Like Urashima label for example. 100 copies LP's of wall noise. I wouldn't expect him to do 500 each and rent storage.


About vinyl pressing, I think there are different size and different standard companies. I know people there might be some people who consider good plants & printers are trade secrets, but this is place one my friend used for black metal and was satisfied. I forwarded info to F&V who pressed SNUFF 7" there. I think both releases sounded nice. Total home pressing plant for 7"s only. In germany.

http://www.my45.de/
check out video of their factory build in house: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPpfoRceGe8

I think it's quite similar like www.amei.se which is another german independent 7" pressingplant.

Never used either myself. I know many who have done at Amei, for example Harbinger.
Both do only 7", and pressing starting from 100.  If you're ok with whitelabel with cheap cover, it ain't bad. But with replication, taxes, shipping, if making 100x7" it will still be probably 4euro (5,20$) each to make. Giving out artists royalties etc, I'd think unit manufacturing around 5 euro (/6,50$) each.

To see how actual metalworks are done (in traditional method), youtube offer several documents about vinyl manufacturing.

From europe, I can say that Amei can be slow, but relaxed. my45 seems little faster, but not much difference. GZ has been always good for me, I have no complaints. Vinylium is quite new and seems to have some fuck-ups in quality of vinyl. MMP looks nice quite often, BUT sooo many times impurities/dust particels or whatever cause small bubles in vinyl - which may not affect sound, but look alarming. But even more alarming the the amount of out-of-center releases which seem to be utterly random. Same pressing may have atrociously wowwing LP's and just perfect ones. I would avoid them. Eldorado does very good sounding and very professional looking records. Celebrate seems pretty good. Some complained of sound problems, but all I have heard seems very nice. Who else? Audiowerker? Domination Records? I guess there are still few factories in UK, France,... Italy? I recall label who did Aryan Terrorism LP gave compliments for some obscure pressing plant in Italy since they would cheaply print utmost explicit nazi LP's with zero complaints. Never heard anyone else to talk about that place. Some secret mob bootleg place? ;)
There is LP cover printer in... Holland or Belgium who is sub-contracted by many of the record pressingplants. I did some direct cover orders from them. Lots of options, good communications. Saves you from middleman grabbing money, but have to pack them yourself. Can also order blank LP sleeves if you want to paste-on / silkscreen yourself.

All these will do the job for you from start to finish if you want. Mastering & pressing. If you want some special cut for vinyl, there are some famous good cutters out there, which will perhaps take more detailed care about each and every project. But I have very little to complain any of factories mentioned above, if you just follow their guidelines. Which seems to be something, people don't do, which may cause poor results.

Anyone wanting to give a shot to put out good noise vinyl, I can forward further contact infos! Americans can check out noisefanatics diy section and I believe it has the info where and how to make records.

Cheap CD's are being made everywhere, anytime, any country. Should be no problem.

Some companies require you to get lisence from domestic copyright organisation to press there. If it's copyright free material, application is free of charge, but has to be done or they won't press it. In Finland it's obviously Teosto. I guess scandinavia its NCB, and so on. When you have filled this, none of factories care are you official business or just self-financing. It just affects the price (due VAT).

It does keep me wondering, why in the countries where all the factories are located and all the possibilities are close & cheapest, seems to happen less?

[RG]

In regards to the old pressing machines and the importance of having good maintenance people, I find it hard to believe that there hasn't been any advances in vinyl pressing in the last 20-30 years. Sure, some of those places are still running the old dinosaurs but there's got to be a modern option out there. I read something a while ago about how since 2007ish, the vinyl industry has had more business than they've had in the last 30 years, so there's got to be some up to date equipment out there (which I know is probably very expensive, but that is beside the point).

It's an interesting business opportunity, but perhaps a bit risky because who knows if vinyl is back for good now or if it will sink back into obscurity (talking about mainstream here)

[Andrew McIntosh]

Lathes?

[Zeno Marx]

In regards to the old pressing machines and the importance of having good maintenance people, I find it hard to believe that there hasn't been any advances in vinyl pressing in the last 20-30 years. Sure, some of those places are still running the old dinosaurs but there's got to be a modern option out there.

Again, I think folks would be surprised.  They retrofitted the old equipment with electronics and whatnot.  From what I understand, there is no new technology, as in buying a brand new pressing machine.  It's all older, heavily used equipment that sits around until one of the established pressing plants absorbs the warehoused stuff of the plants that closed shop.  Makes a lot more sense to work on a $100-200K old machine than to pay someone to build and test a brand new one for $1-2M.  You don't see pressing machines come on the market very often because the bigger plants buy them for parts and for backup.  Like I've been saying for a few years now, vinyl is 100% novelty, and the way the industry supports the demand is very much in line with novelty product.  They use antiquated machinery and milk every bit out of it that they can, because it makes no business sense to overhaul a shop and prepare it for the next 100 years with the new.  It's all on its last legs, and they're acting accordingly.  I suspect that if Bill Smith wasn't a family business, they would have sold their equipment and closed shop a long time ago.  I'm baffled that Bill Smith outlasted Alberti.

Records are a tiny market, even with the industry-generated hoopla about it making a big comeback.  Places don't continue to close because it is an easy or greatly profitable business.  Part of the reason these plants are so busy is because there are far fewer pressing plants worldwide.  It only makes sense that the remaining few would be busier.  Those of us into noise, metal, and HC live in a bubble.  We have a false impression of how much market they actually hold.

[RG]

Great points Zeno. Fans of underground music do live in a bubble, but you have to admit that the little resurgence of vinyl is interesting. I can walk into a Best Buy now and look at an entire rack of brand new albums and reissues of old ones. A format that was basically declared commercially dead 30 years ago. That never happened with tapes, 8-tracks, etc... and it won't happen with CDs either.

Nostalgia is a powerful thing in our culture, so that is a factor in it. The thing to wonder though: is it nostalgia like how bell-bottom jeans or mustaches come back in style or is it a different kind, related to the digitizing of our culture/media and the increase interest in vinyl is a reaction against that. If it's the former, then it's just a fad and it will be gone again in a few years, but if it's the latter then it might be something that lasts.

As far as lathe-cut releases, I've never owned one so I can't have an opinion on it. Don't they deteriorate quickly? And isn't the quality shit?

[Zeno Marx]

but you have to admit that the little resurgence of vinyl is interesting. I can walk into a Best Buy now and look at an entire rack of brand new albums and reissues of old ones.

I don't find corporate desperation all that interesting.  It's just code for lies and manipulation.  "Vinyl's back!  Come get yours!!"  Horsepucky.  And do The Rolling Stones honestly need moremoney?

[ConcreteMascara]

I've got one lathe cut from King Records in NZ. A friend of mine from Japan started his own label and his first release was to be 60 of these 10" clear lathe cuts. The 4 months I spent in Japan I was on the phone once every two weeks asking where the records were. They kept telling me about their other big orders and so on. My friend Taka payed more to have them quicker and instead got stuck waiting for four months. That's fucking bullshit. They came right before I left Japan and I honestly I thought they really weren't that great. Very brittle and slim vinyl. The sound is pretty good but honestly the .wav master I have of my friends material sounds better. Plus I'm always afraid the record is just going to snap like a cracker. I was supposed to get a lathe cut from Jason Crumer over a year ago and supposedly there have been hold ups but I'm not sure if I'm just getting dicked around.
Final thought - fuck lathe cuts.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

With 3000,- or such, you can buy your own lathe from german company. Blank discs, new cutting needles, etc. www.vinylrecorder.com
Many times thought, never did it. Price goes up everytime you add little improvments.
Grunt/Mutant Ape lathe is cut on vinyl 7" (ltd 20. I may have copy left. Came out years ago) with that machine by Audiowerker in germany. Sounds very good to me, considering what it is. Cut on vinyl, not acetate or plastic. And it is suprisinly good, since it ain't the real Neumann -type lathe, but just the "screw this to your DJ turntable" -model.

Like Zeno says about pressing vinyl, it goes to cuting lathes. This is work of true craftmanship. You can't expect it to be like burning CDR's or dubbing tapes what were designed to be done by anybody. Cutting vinyl master or lathe will need patience, attention, knowledge, not saving too much in your materials..  keeping places clean and so on. Cutting lathe is 1:1 real time + preparations. I could imagine cutting one 30min lathe being 60 min job. And not just letting it do it while you do dishes, but actively monitor things don't fuck up. I seriously don't envy Kings Records for having to listen all day everyday indie garbage and sit inside dark warehouse with 3 cutting lathes.


I believe all advances.. or lets say changes there's been made in records factories, is in mastering process. Not in pressing. Direct Metal Mastering option chosen by more people. Computer guided mastering processes from digital masters.
Pressing itself isn't complicated, but machine that smoothly does what it has to do, needs to be taken care.

Guy from CD factory said me once, vinyl is just like hobby. One can operate tiny vinyl factory with just 2 guys. On cd factory, machine spits out CD's non-stop, everyday. If machine ever is cooled down, it takes several hours to warm up until it can produce working CD's again. It throws out thousands of unusualble discs before that. I think daily capacity was... 100000 discs was it? Most cd places are just agents, who collect orders for this big factories. Very few have so much order they can to use machine in its full capacity.

[Cementimental]

Perhaps one should force sell 3 copies in one order :D  Customer pays 1 LP but gets 3. Then give to his friends. For publisher it could be about the same cost, but perhaps expand range of listeners. Perhaps could be project worth to try!

This is an amazing idea, actually perfect for a project I have been planning so I may well give it a go. Thanks for the inspiration!

[Matthias]

Asking people to "keep records at home for 10 years" is argument similar to ask people to support label by paying triple price.

That's mostly not a reasonable comparison.  You can rent small storage space for as little as $20/month.  Or rent a corner of a friend's basement for a few bucks.  Having backstock is a nominal problem...I mean, we're talking about running a record label.  It's like a mechanic bitching about needing tools or something.

Backstock can be a pain in the ass. For the moment i have most of my back catalog at our venue, and maybe 10% at home, and it's a mess. Travel back and forth. If i had enough with space i would much rather have everything at home. Logistics can be a nightmare. And it's time consuming. I just don't think renting a storage space just for this matter is a realistic solution for most. Depends on size of label etc i guess. I like the idea with a release being available for a long period of time, but today it makes more sense to start out with a smaller pressing amount and then repress if it sells well.

Vinyl pressing is always fun to discuss. Some thoughts on the european plants i have used:
GZ: I know people have very different opinions about the czechs, but i've never had any problems with them. Better and better with the communication over the years, and i think the final result is very good. Just be sure to upgrade the paper stock etc. The best thing is that they are fast, you usually have your records delivered 3 weeks from the day you shipped off the masters. Personally im always on a tight budget so if i can start to get money back on a certain release after 3 weeks insted of 5-6 that's something i value high. My biggest concern with GZ is the shitty labels they use, looks cheap, almost as printed on a crappy laserprinter.
Ameise: Good for shorter runs of 7"s and good prices. Qualitywise.. well, i guess they have their up and downs. Got a big bunch of copies scratched with a release a did with them, not sure what happened there but unplayable 7"s. Good to deal with though so i didn't have to pay for those copies obviously. Takes very long time and that's the biggest minus here. Expect 2-3 months for delivery.
Duophonic: Good quality, maybe a bit more expensive than GZ. First release i did with them came out great, on the second the covers could have been better. Outsourcing all printed material i think. Turnaround 4-6 weeks.
Record Industry: Again good quality, but a bit expensive. Based in the Netherlands i think. Only used them for one release so far. Happy with the final product, but not sure if it was worth the extra euros?
Eldorado: Used them for one release a long time ago, can't remember that much about their business. Vinyl sounded good.