Licensing question

[urall]

I was wondering when you'd like to reissue old releases, how this usually is dealt with in the DIY/Noise scene ?
Is there a 'common' arrangement people usually follow or ?

[vomitgore]

I was wondering when you'd like to reissue old releases, how this usually is dealt with in the DIY/Noise scene ?
Is there a 'common' arrangement people usually follow or ?

I guess people just ask the artist(s) and then agree on a form of payment (usually artist copies).

[urall]

I was wondering when you'd like to reissue old releases, how this usually is dealt with in the DIY/Noise scene ?
Is there a 'common' arrangement people usually follow or ?

I guess people just ask the artist(s) and then agree on a form of payment (usually artist copies).

OK, but what about the label who might have put it out ?  Even when it's on a DIY scale of things.
Do you have to take them into account as well, or is this more of a decent thing to do (which i assume) ?

Sounds all trivial perhaps, but i was wondering if there are some things you need to check which you might forget or something.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

It is all based on good manners. If you think you are stepping on someones toes, you can ask if they have any objections.
But rarely there is any "legal" element to it. Artists tend to own "copyright", so What they say and What they ask as royalties is legit deal.
I would suggest to contact original label and possibly give handful of reissue as sign of appreciation.

[deutscheasphalt]

I was wondering when you'd like to reissue old releases, how this usually is dealt with in the DIY/Noise scene ?
Is there a 'common' arrangement people usually follow or ?

I guess people just ask the artist(s) and then agree on a form of payment (usually artist copies).

OK, but what about the label who might have put it out ?  Even when it's on a DIY scale of things.
Do you have to take them into account as well, or is this more of a decent thing to do (which i assume) ?

Sounds all trivial perhaps, but i was wondering if there are some things you need to check which you might forget or something.

Only if the label holds the copyright instead of the artist

[EXU]

This subject is bound to get more discussed and complicated I think as the artists start to, well, die. There are already some weird things going around about some releases from artists like Coil, Atrax Morgue and Muslimgauze.
I am always curious about this and how much the "community" see it, if it's fair game to release something kind of sketchy that usually goes with the "I've talked with the family" tag but can't be easily verified... Not trying to stir shit, just thinking about it, if making something available is itself valid (when making money out of it).
I always think about Vomir, hope Roro lives forever but his project is one that perhaps will live forever even before he past, know what I'm saying? And as the biggest (plus if reclusive) acts expire, how many posthumous releases will pop out? Weird areas we can go to when thinking about this stuff in the hermit undergound.

[deutscheasphalt]

This subject is bound to get more discussed and complicated I think as the artists start to, well, die. There are already some weird things going around about some releases from artists like Coil, Atrax Morgue and Muslimgauze.
I am always curious about this and how much the "community" see it, if it's fair game to release something kind of sketchy that usually goes with the "I've talked with the family" tag but can't be easily verified... Not trying to stir shit, just thinking about it, if making something available is itself valid (when making money out of it).
I always think about Vomir, hope Roro lives forever but his project is one that perhaps will live forever even before he past, know what I'm saying? And as the biggest (plus if reclusive) acts expire, how many posthumous releases will pop out? Weird areas we can go to when thinking about this stuff in the hermit undergound.

In Germany, copyright is lifted 70 years after the artists death and can be handed down to the family via will. So by law you would have to make sure the family holds the copyright and signs it over to you for a re-issue using a contract or otherwise I assume they could sue you for copyright fraud. Considering the "underground" I doubt that many people would give a damn though. At least I wouldn't cause I'd be fucking dead. Profit should be devided between label and artist/family as agreed in the contract but I'd rather put some money into Corbelli memorial fund or something than giving it to the family since they haven't contributed to the actual music.

[vomitgore]

I was wondering when you'd like to reissue old releases, how this usually is dealt with in the DIY/Noise scene ?
Is there a 'common' arrangement people usually follow or ?

I guess people just ask the artist(s) and then agree on a form of payment (usually artist copies).

OK, but what about the label who might have put it out ?  Even when it's on a DIY scale of things.
Do you have to take them into account as well, or is this more of a decent thing to do (which i assume) ?

Sounds all trivial perhaps, but i was wondering if there are some things you need to check which you might forget or something.

Only if the label holds the copyright instead of the artist

That is a different matter, of course... Then again, that seems pretty uncommon for Noise and may only be found in higher scale extreme Metal, where there may be contracts about the label owning the sole rights for x years (please correct me, if I am wrong). But as FA said, contacting the original label is probably a good decision, not necessarily for legal reasons but out of etiquette and just to be sure. Then again, it's the artist's work and he should know best about all the previous deals and such.

[murderous_vision]

If you are thinking about a coil reissue, it seems any fart scrap is fair game these days. Hahahaha

[Zeno Marx]

It is all based on good manners. If you think you are stepping on someones toes, you can ask if they have any objections.
But rarely there is any "legal" element to it. Artists tend to own "copyright", so What they say and What they ask as royalties is legit deal.
I would suggest to contact original label and possibly give handful of reissue as sign of appreciation.

Begin.  End.  I feel this post says it all, and if not explicitly, it sets the proper tone.

*though, unfortunately, contacting old labels seems to rarely happen.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I think any current systems copyright legislation is quite irrelevant within underground. As mentioned before, good manners or lets say good intent in general is route to go.
Think for example numerous punk bootlegs, what used to happen in a way that person who did it, was to cultivate the art form. It was often done reissuing rare & impossible to get material, presented in best possible way. Including good sounding material, scans of the original artworks. Possibly extra visuals. Sold for moderate price. Of course most of these happened in times when everything was not readily available from streams.

Nevertheless, when someone does a reissues - whether legit & authorized, or thing called "fanclub release" (hah...), it is not the same thing as bootleg that has sole reason of generating income for abuser on expense of abused. I am 100% sure that still today, it would be possible to see overlooked old rare items and conclude that genre as a whole would benefit of its reissue.

Especially when talking of dead artists: If person making something available is pure with his intent, I feel it is pretty much ok. When you do it out of appreciation and worship, and do not abuse neither artist nor the "scene", I don't think there is need to pull in some bourgeois concepts as "copyright". If nobody is really making relevant income (which should be expectation in case of "noise"), one could conclude this is done out of passion rather than hunger for profit.

When talking of living artists, I do have slight cautions. I do think one should respect the wishes of living artists. For whatever reason, they may not want all their past works made available again. Yet, one can also conclude some people may have lost the perspective. And opposed to their attempts to hide supposedly embarrassing early works, vast genre of art form could benefit of someone just bootlegging the inspiring works would be barely "crime", hah...

For example, if someone out there would make a bootleg box set of S*Core tapes, done with respect and passion... Good quality and moderately priced, I'd buy it instantly!

[deutscheasphalt]

I think any current systems copyright legislation is quite irrelevant within underground. As mentioned before, good manners or lets say good intent in general is route to go.
Think for example numerous punk bootlegs, what used to happen in a way that person who did it, was to cultivate the art form. It was often done reissuing rare & impossible to get material, presented in best possible way. Including good sounding material, scans of the original artworks. Possibly extra visuals. Sold for moderate price. Of course most of these happened in times when everything was not readily available from streams.

Nevertheless, when someone does a reissues - whether legit & authorized, or thing called "fanclub release" (hah...), it is not the same thing as bootleg that has sole reason of generating income for abuser on expense of abused. I am 100% sure that still today, it would be possible to see overlooked old rare items and conclude that genre as a whole would benefit of its reissue.

Especially when talking of dead artists: If person making something available is pure with his intent, I feel it is pretty much ok. When you do it out of appreciation and worship, and do not abuse neither artist nor the "scene", I don't think there is need to pull in some bourgeois concepts as "copyright". If nobody is really making relevant income (which should be expectation in case of "noise"), one could conclude this is done out of passion rather than hunger for profit.

When talking of living artists, I do have slight cautions. I do think one should respect the wishes of living artists. For whatever reason, they may not want all their past works made available again. Yet, one can also conclude some people may have lost the perspective. And opposed to their attempts to hide supposedly embarrassing early works, vast genre of art form could benefit of someone just bootlegging the inspiring works would be barely "crime", hah...

For example, if someone out there would make a bootleg box set of S*Core tapes, done with respect and passion... Good quality and moderately priced, I'd buy it instantly!

I see your point and both sides of the argument. However you can't even define terms like "good intent" or "pure with intent". It all comes down to whether the "scene" accepts the re-issue or bootleg and this is extremely based on feelings. If the artist does not consent to his material being released it shouldn't. Noone has the right to listen to your music, it's a priviledge so I respect the copyright laws in the sense that if someone releases your stuff without your consent whether it is to make profit or out of appreciation you're able to sue the fuck out of them. Asking for permission to put out a re-issue and then agreeing to some form of payment (artist copies) counts as contract.
With that being said, dead artists can't even consent to anything which makes it more complicated in my opinion since you have to evaluate totally selflessly whether you're doing something that benefits the artist or scene or genre by re-issuing. I've had this discussion before about Urashima since all the AM releases generated huge profit and i'm still curious what that was used for.

[Zeno Marx]

Well...it does all come down to respect and decency in the "underground".  Real law...with real, cutthroat, creative lawyers...would have a heyday with our handshake contracts.  We'd be like flicking a dead bug off a table.  Once we get into casual conversation over the course of the situation, we likely create tens of loopholes and language conflicts.  The best of agreements could ultimately get dissected into successful litigation.  It would destroy the underground at a better clip than ridiculous shipping rates.

I've always found it a bit interesting that there is a decent chasm between the punk world and the experimental world when it comes to bootlegging (profiteering) and fan clubbing.  Like Freak said, there's a fair amount of forgiving when it comes to fan clubbing and admiration issues in punk.  Progressive, or at least non-traditional.  I'm not speaking of the likes of Ginn/SST etc, where some real amounts of money come into play (yeah, Ginn isn't a good example...he's a whole other discussion).  Or Sakevi/GISM's mysterious power over bootleggers.  But then you have this even smaller marketplace in experimental music where traditionalism and capitalist conservatism doesn't take kindly to even fan club type releases.  The situations share a lot in common, but the philosophies and ethics get real different when it comes to economics.  It's one of those oddities you can throw in the barrel with people who feel it their right to hit taboo topics with a baseball bat while being candy-sensitive to being associated or questioned about it.

[murderous_vision]

I've had this discussion before about Urashima since all the AM releases generated huge profit and i'm still curious what that was used for.
[/quote]

Well, outside of the AM CD boxes, he was mostly LPs limited to 99 copies, selling for around 20 Euros, I don't think we are talking "huge profits". In the case of these reissues, and the fact that these should be available history, I think there is a need for these classics to stay available. I wish he would stick closer to the original artwork, it should be mandatory to replicate the original vision of the work. As I joked earlier about Coil, I don't think it is right to pilfer the archive and cash in on every scrap that may have remained unreleased for a reason. Keeping a classic body of work in print can be mandatory, however.

[Cranial Blast]

I use to have this really anti bootleg stance toward media when I was younger and now it's the opposite! I think if greedy corporate record labels want to cockblock the rights to shit, just because they can or want some crazy bogus payday to unleash their grip over shit is absolutely absurd. I often think of record labels in metal doing this like Nuclear Blast or shitty Roadrunner. It literally has taken forever for late 80s early 90s metal classics to actually start to resurface in proper, respectable and severely late reissues, look at all of that Pungent Stench stuff, finally now it's made available by some other label who probably paid a lot to even get the rights, but after all this fucking time...I hardly care about it now! Hah... Also G.I.S.M. comes to mind, this is a case where I think the band itself has made the reissue hard to get, but then relapse decided to be a bunch of sissies and block out the swastika as a form of self censorship, absolutely ridiculous. Anyone that wants a bootleg copy of that, should only buy a bootleg copy of that and also say fuck you to Relapse. What they did was atrocious with the permanent fixed OBI strip. If the band approved that shit, perhaps we should question their own integrity as well! I recently picked up a somewhat popular film from the 80s called Excalibur, pretty normy type of fantasy action flick from the 80s. What really pissed me off about the DVD was that the cover is so fucking generic and lame...they had this amazing art style mural for the film in it's day and looked awesome, but no they wanted to use some stock photo from the film itself, because who cares, maybe the license ran out or who knows what the fuck, but this is another case where I'd gladly buy a bootleg over this shitty corporate Warner Brother version. It's like what was said in the post before, this type of stuff should be approached with manners when going about this kind of thing and absolutely should be done with passion if bootleg is to be made and then you got what is almost the opposite in Excalibur's case, here you got offical licesening and ZERO care or passion, it's such a travesty! This why I've come around to bootlegs and also I've got loads of other films to, where the big greedy companies won't let go and there is no proper format and then someone comes along to make it right, I say fuck the big companies when someone else comes along and does something that should of been done 30+ years ago and does it with pride and passion!