The Ethics Of Trading

[Molluskground, Inc.]

Trading all depends on how you go on about it. Blindly accepting anyone and everyone has a hit and miss nature - you will often receive someone's latest thoughtless "jam", but on the other hand you may receive something inspiring enough that will provoke you to form a friendship from there on. That has happened to me several times. The same applies to label demos. I would recommend listening to everything you receive, as you may find a wolf in sheep's clothing (read: excellent music in a shoddy package). But that is a different matter.

Andrew's Solar Anus is the only label I can think of that revolves around "trade only" - which to me seems like easy prey for those who want to spread their boring bullshit as far and wide as possible. Otherwise this thread would not have been made in the first place. Also, will these releases only circulate within the "scene" itself? What about those with no project or label and therefore no releases to bargain with?

Personally? I welcome the odd trade here and there with exceptions - one being familiar with what their music is like. There are the usual suspects who I always trade with. It is a simple way of swapping your blood, sweat and tears without money getting involved. However, when I move onto more professional methods of releasing music for consumption, there is no chance I will be taking CDrs for anything other than CDrs that I may be stocking.

[Arvo]

I like trading with people in person.   In person, if I like somebody, I am interested in hearing their sounds as an extension of their personality, even if it is a minimal presentation.  In person, it's basically like trading business cards if we're not talking about pro stuff. 

I am much more sympathetic to international trades.  In that case, even if it's not my style, it's still like a sociological study. 

Shipping prices in the USA just went up, so considering that I do pro CDRs, but I've worked for a long time on this stuff (6 years in both cases of disc releases, would be nice to afford bulk CDs), it would have to be a very special case that I would trade 2xproCDR for 1 CD internationally, especially if I am sending a jewel case, and I'm getting a pro CD in a slim little cardboard sleeve.   And getting a xerox insert in a plastic sleeve with a spray painted CDR that has 10 minutes of sound on it, that seems engineered for trying to rip off people in trades.  I think more people should outrightly specify "pro CDR" rather than simply "CDR", because there is a distinct difference, and it costs about the same per unit as a CD if not more, only lacking the initial bulk investment, and I think pro CDRs look like they will last longer than consumer blank CDRs, for the 5% of people who aren't putting everything on their hard drive immediately anyway. 

I also have a radio show, so I like having new stuff to consider for airplay.  It's an added motivation to trade.   

[Verdant]

Sometimes it's easy to spot someone who just tosses crap out there. If they do fool me...at best the dude is into the material, and will tell others about it etc. At worst, it's another name to ignore when it shows up in my inbox.

[revdom666]

Trading allowed me to discover so many new and powerful artists outside of the big names that drew me in to begin with.  I first heard guys (and gals) like Screwtape, Pharmakon, Vomir, Hoor-Paar-Kraat, Gnawed, Churner and many more great artists because they were kind enough to trade their material with me.  Yeah, I got a lot of stuff I didn't like but I'm sure people have been disappointed with things I have sent them.  It's all a matter of taste.  Now I only release digitally via bandcamp so I've lost the trading aspect which kind of makes me sad.

[dfylr]

Personally I beleive there is always a balance in tradeing,for instance if a person shows real interest in your project and has the same confidence in there own work I have no problems with sending whatever it is I have created out to them,its a good tool for helping promote yourself and see what others are doing, theres always the possibility of running accross something you may also enjoy,even if its a genre your completly unfamiliar with.I have made a few good friends through trades and in the same respect have been mailed releases in return that are quite embrassing and had me both scratching my head and quistioning the integrity of so and so's intentions....
 In doing trades as many have stated,it is a good way to weed out serious individuals from those that are putting shit out for all of the wrong reasons,this can also be a huge waste of time.There are many ways to ensure what your getting is something you will enjoy,check out peoples myspace pages if an artist wishes to promote useing it or facebook,alot of people now days use diffrent sources for promotion,Bandcamp,Soundcloud,etc..I have noticed if a project has one or two good tracks and are getting great label promotion chances are you get a decent trade in return,it all depends on the respect and the feedback a label as well as thier artist's have earned.
Tradeing is definitly a great vice in learning of new artists and seeing what others are doing when involveing themselfs in shared interests,its always a possitive or negitive and in the end its completly up to the trader to make there own judgments,especially with so many people now a days involved in the creation of music,its anyones call....

[Cranial Blast]

I trade for a few reasons. One of them is habit, really; an old idea of staying with the DIY "ideals" I had when an unemployed punk. It feels comfortable to me to simply trade one of my releases for someone else's, rather than deal with money transactions. It seems to me to be an honourable way of dispersing the sound I make to others.

But lately, I've been re-thinking those ideals. With my last release I traded as always and got material that, quite frankly, went straight to the reject pile. What I was thinking was I want people to hear what I do so I'll hear what they do and if I don't like it that's okay. But lately, it's not been okay. I'm starting to get a lot pickier than I was even a few years ago. So I'm thinking that putting up a small charge, despite the hassles with getting an account and all the rest of it, will have to be the way to simply avoid getting the bad and in some cases outright shit I've been getting.

It's a pity, though, as I still like trading. Getting worthwhile trades is one of the best things in the world. I'm wondering how other people see it. If you trade, as many of you do, how do you go about it? Do you reject things that you don't want? Do you simply let the good outweigh the bad? What do people think is the best way to go about trading?

Being I'm somewhat new to "trading" and what not. I have not yet become so jaded by it...not yet at least. Most often I'll trade with just about anyone who is willing to do a trade. One because I'm thrilled by the concept, as most of my extra spending monies just goes towards other media anyways almost 99% of the time and number two, I think it's great to get the exposure by trading with other labels, perhaps by some labels more recognized, than perhaps your own. For instance I had traded with the US label Junkie & Proud and it's astonishing to me that the label was able to sell out of all of my tapes for one specific release in the matter of a couple days and yet I've only sold a few in 9 months, so I think for newer labels, artists to gain some much needed exposure, trading is absolutely imperative, especially if you're like me and you don't have any social media advertising or anything like that. It's inspired me to trade with other labels coming up that are unrecognizable as my own, hoping to give those new artists the same experience I got. I think it's a healthy thing that we all grow in this stuff together and give each other the proper chances to be exposed to possible audiences who might enjoy the work. I've found the experience to be quite enjoyable, even if I think I'm doing a trade that might not be maybe as "fair" like 45 min tape for 15 min tape, or even something that's totally blindsided, something I've not even heard yet! The excitement of the trade is still worth it alone to me, specifically at this moment for me in perticular. What I loathe and cannot stand though is when I've made a trade with someone and I've gone ahead and sent my goods out, but hadn't gotten anything in return. Has anyone else experienced this type of bullshit before?

[tiny_tove]

when I still had space at home trading was essential, great way to make network, befriend other people and suggest my friends new sounds.
now It's impossible for me. excluding a few labels that my friends are always eager to support I cannot amass anymore stuff at home and my listening time is reduced to one hour a day maximum so I temporarly stopped any trade even with friends.

[Confuzzled]

Not sure if this still works or would help with overseas trades, but back in the mid-90s, I had a friend that had a small label and would trade overseas. He would tape a piece of paper to his package where he would write the address and leave a note in the package that said "stamps" with two arrows in a circle like the recycle arrows. He would coat his stamps in a fine layer of white glue (Elmer's) and ship them off. When his stamps were mailed back in an envelope, he would soak them in a shallow tray of water to remove the postage marks and white glue, dry them, and start the process over again. This saved him hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars a year in shipping costs.

[Zeno Marx]

"send back my stamps" was common throughout the underground in the 90s, mostly by labels and traders outside the US, and if you forgot, you could catch some flak. pretty sure there was even at least one zine named that.

[mag-maa]

In the past I used to trade a lot to check the new stuff from other labels. At that time (2000-2010) CDR's and tapes mostly. It was also a good opportunity to have my own label releases available in other countries/areas as well. Lately not so much trading, mostly only if I am interested of the stuff AND if I have money enough to pay the shipping costs (so basically just sometimes and inside Finland, but more rarely inside EU).
I don't need so much new records for my own use (mostly buying second hand cd's/lp's from flea markets). Sometimes I might ask if someone would like to trade a copy of his work for my own... and if it's not possible, I just live without. I have lost my worst mania for collecting and getting more and more records (which is just fine! already so much stuff to listen).

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Since very first steps in underground, till this day, trading is my most active way of getting stuff. These days mostly includes trading with labels or artists that I distribute, and grab my own copy of things while doing so. Most often I like to distribute what I like myself, not necessarily what is "in demand" or "sells well". If items are something I wouldn't really like to listen, I may still distribute them, but not really very urgent or absolute must to stock them.
Some stuff I do not get from labels, but I also do trades with some labels on more private manner. They want something from my distro, I want something from them, and I'll get stuff that I may not distribute but need for myself. Besides that I do some trades also just like in old days. Someone got 2nd hand items I want, I got something they want... There is not that much stuff I have bought. I mostly buy at gigs or shops if there is something I need.

This is not even being thrifty or such, but for me, underground culture has foundation on personal communication and sort of actually being involved, so to say. Having noise at largest existing platforms and availability in high profile record stores,  and that there are lots of labels who even do underground publishing for living, are quite interesting changes and I naturally have one foot there, but personally, I feel connected to old school personal and somewhat intimate communication. If I see label posting advertisement of pre-order or something like that, I have close to zero interest. So certainly can miss items, but I am sure I get more than enough to listen from trading with people currently active.

[kalamite]

As a young blood trading seems like a thing of the past
I've recently been getting into it but it does seem like, more often than not, people will try to trade their disposable rubbish "art" for the good stuff that I'd much rather just sell for the common transactional price
Not even trying to rip them off, I'll do a fair price, but please spare me your piece of crap trendy tape of the week lol

[FreakAnimalFinland]

This is one element, that back in the day, you could say almost every noise tape mattered. You knew if someone was involved in international noise network, and known for it, it most likely meant that stuff would be good. I don't think I have gotten many trades back then what was severe disappointment?
Now you may get stuff that is dubbed so badly, there is missing channel or sound is utterly lame. Noise appears to have nothing worth hearing. These may be the signs of "social noise scene", that has been discussed on noise podcasts. You trade and do works with people who you meet and talk to and some of it of course sucks ass. When you were doing trades with very best of the best in this field, it would be unlikely those items would suck. However, when scene gets bigger and good artists recognized, I am sure most realize people who got thousands of trades in mail over decades, simply might not need someone's latest synth experiment on recycled C-90.
When I do trades, I hope to make it clear this is not mandatory. I would prefer releases be in hands of people who listen them, not just trading for sake of trading and stuff cumulates everywhere, nobody listens... That's why never really even tell friends something is out so they don't feel its like hint they got to buy it.

[Andrew McIntosh]

Benefit of hindsight - I miss it. I used to love it, I realise now. Getting a parcel in the mail was always a thrill. Like getting presents without it having to be a birthday or Xmas or some bullshit like that.

The whole thing of keeping and returning stamps and working out how to package stuff and arguing with whoever's in the post office over stupid shit and all of that - yea, it was a pain in the clacker and while I can look back on it now with a touch of nostalgia a lot of that wasn't very fun at the time.

But maybe the best bit was the personal engagement. Even when it was obvious some people were just casting around, which I can't fault because I did that too, you have to in the initial stages. But just that whole thing of getting a parcel, reading the letter, studying the contents, giving it its first play on the stereo. Real nostalgic value right there for me. It was best getting more than one parcel on the day. Felt like anti-Xmas.

But today, well - that was then, this is now, it doesn't matter, that whole time served its purpose, et cetera. I miss the concrete personal engagement, but on the other hand, it's still possible to communicate directly with people these days, and if you're honest, it can be done with as much value.