TRERIKSRÖSET / TOMMY CARLSSON
interview by Mikko Aspa
transcribed from audio tape by Andrew MacIntosh
The beginning.
-I grew up in the 70's, and my parents were not really interested in music at all. So, it was when I was around nine or ten, I started discovering things on the radio. First some punk music, then later on I found Devo, also Crass were of great importance. I was always interested in underground culture. I was reading underground comics when I was eleven or twelve; Crumb, "Freak Brothers" all sorts of stuff. Thanks to the comics you discovered that there was an underground culture, with comic fanzines and people doing their own material. And moving on from there you found other fanzines and other underground media, where they covered weird music and after a while there were certain names that were recurring, like SPK, Throbbing Gristle, Merzbow... once you read about it enough times it was decidedly interesting and you tried to pursue finding music by these artists.
I don't really remember exactly how it happened, but after a while I discovered people who introduced me to things like Whitehouse, Nurse With Wound, Merzbow, and the doors just opened. You found all sorts of interesting stuff. By the time I was fifteen I had found a world of music that was really exciting. At the same time I was experimenting myself with tape recorders, recording junk metal stuff, slowing it down and speeding it up on the tape recorder, and just sitting at home doing my own recordings. Nothing that was ever released in any way, but I had friends into similar stuff and we played together. So in my teens we had some sort of industrial noise projects with friends. Moving on I kept doing it on my own and never really released anything, it was all private exercises.
Around 1996, which is roughly ten years later, I started Treriksröset, which was originally a duo with Peter Thörneby of P2. We actually never recorded anything together; we started the act together but he soon went on other artistic roads, other artistic projects, so Treriksröset was mine to keep, on my own. It was a long process of just being interested in experimental music and noise. Doing things on my own but never really having an interest in being public about it.
I'm quite happy that I didn't feel any urge to show my earliest recordings to the world, that it was kept more as private stuff. I would like to have the old tapes around, I would like to give it a listen now, but I hardly have anything left. I can find the occasional tape with some old recordings but lots of stuff has gone missing over the years. But it's never wrong to take your time and just wait until you have something that you're actually proud of and I think maybe I managed to do that.
Little availability.
I'm not very productive (laughs). There are so many other things that take time, and when I do record stuff I prefer to wait until I feel comfortable, and when I feel satisfied enough to bring it to others. It doesn't have
to be anything that has taken me super-long to produce, it could be a straight-up live recording. I think most people release too much material anyway. I think people definitely should slow down. Speaking of live recordings, it's definitely a way to practice improving you craft, just trying to be as good as you can be. A live recording should be something that you are willing to go onstage and perform to people, and you have to work on that art in itself. It could be something very simplistic. I think the main point is that you should wait a while, give it some time and listen to it after, when you have some sort of perspective on it. You have to wait and see if the material stands up to your own demands after some time.
I can't say I listen to my own material twenty or thirty times, 'cause it feels a bit self-indulgent to spend that much time on your own music. But you need to listen to it and you need to listen to it in different ways. Headphones, speakers, loudness levels, check if it sounds ok on a boom box, and so on. Sometimes you can feel very soon if something holds up, that it's worth actually releasing and sometimes it takes longer. I have done changes, I have sent off a master, then changed my mind about it. Maybe changed one side of a tape or something, which makes you think that I didn't spend enough time listening to it, and I guess that is probably true. But I'm not an expert on how long it would take for you to really figure out your own material's worth. All it should take is a bit of self discipline and some sort of critical eye towards your own stuff. And that is probably what is lacking in general.
Criticism towards your own material.
It's really hard, because we've all released stuff that we're not happy with years later. You can always go back and say "why did I do this? Why did I think this was good enough, it sucks!" It's easy to say that people should have a critical view of their own work, but just the act of listening to stuff for a couple of times, actually taking the time – I don't think you should let other people's opinions come into play and base your decision based on what others think. I certainly don't suggest that. But merely that you don't rush things. Everyone does mistakes, everyone does release things that they think are good enough and that they change their minds afterwards. So the best way to avoid that is, the more time you spend on it the better off you are.
I would certainly never sit in an interview situation like this and even try and suggest that I think I've done any kind of masterpieces ten years ago. I listen to my old recordings rarely, but I do return to things every now and then. Since I'm doing the music for myself I do appreciate listening to it. It can sound arrogant or self indulgent but I think I've touched upon it before that noise is fetishistic in a manner -- that the noise that is ideal to you is what you are personally looking for. It could be other peoples' work but if you're true to yourself as a noise musician you do things to please yourself. I do think of noise as being fetishistic in that way, that you have a vision of what it should be and you strive to attain that.
Noise as fetishism.
I think Masami's view (on noise and pornography) is excellent for what it is and that's his view on it, his very personal view. He manages to describe his urges and his thoughts on the process, and for him I think it's excellent. I don't think you should take one person's fetishistic view and try and make it something universal, though. And as to whether I see my own work as being part of a noise culture, I don't think of noise as being very different to other kinds of music. Once you separate one genre of music from others you have genre thinking, and you have rules that are very self imposing. And that couldn't be positive, could it?
Pure noise.
Originally it started out by stating that Treriksröset should be a pure noise project. This was 1996, so the noise scene was in many ways different from what it is now. Back then pure noise was definitely not as common as it is today, I think. So while we did restrict ourselves in that way, in saying that we should do pure noise it is something that I'm perfectly willing to change. If I record something that doesn't sound like earlier Treriksröset, it's not a problem to release it under that name. I'd happily release something that sounds completely different from the usual style that I work in, since it's basically just me and my personal hang-ups, my personal visions, it reflects my life and my interests and so on. There's no reason why it shouldn't be able to sound different from the way it usually sounds.
I do try out different methods of recording, different instrumentation – the process is changing all the time. And if you try something radically different, of course it's sometimes tempting to do it under a lot of names. I have done collaborations with people and there are some tracks out there that under other names.
Noise projects.
It's always okay up until the time that people start using their real names (laughs). Joking aside, I don't have a problem with it and I can see that some people want to separate their different projects, different interests and aspects of music into different projects. But it can get quite, well, ridiculous when you have someone doing three different wall noise projects under three different names and it's basically the same type of material. So, personally, I don't see the need for it. But if people want to do that, that's fine by me, it's just not something I'm interested in myself. Better to give the listener they might not expect, I think.
I'm wondering who they're doing it for. If they're doing it for themselves then I couldn't say anything about it, if that's what they want to do. But somehow you get the feeling that in the back of their brain they're thinking about the audience – or should I use the term customer? -- but not confusing the audience; "Oh, if I release it under my usual project name they might expect this, so I'll have to do it under another name". When you start taking those things into account then you lose me. I don't see the point.
Peoples' expectations – I was thinking back when I was fourteen, fifteen I was reading this magazine piece about Merzbow, and they used the term "orgy of hardcore electronics" to describe it. And the first Merzbow I heard after that was a track from a compilation tape called "Paris-Tokyo", which was when Merzbow was a duo recording, and that was a very melodic synth-pop thing. I was listening to that tape and was thinking "orgy of hardcore electronics? This thing?!" That was hugely disappointing. Later on I discovered that those tracks where really a complete anomaly in the Merzbow discography; if I had any expectations they where simply fucked with, and I remember it twenty years later so it can't be all bad.
Subgenres of noise.
There are many people limiting themselves and there are many labels focussing a bit too strongly on certain types of noise. It shows poor imagination, I think; you rarely get surprised by noise music but I think that has to do with the fact that noise is pretty much a genre these days in a whole different way than it was fifteen, twenty years ago. It sure incorporated a whole lot of different styles back then. And a lot of things that were considered noise then wouldn't even be thought of as noise right now. I was listening to the Crass album "Yes Sir, I Will", and when I first heard it I thought it was quite an extreme record, but now it's like a Sunday morning record that you listen to with the kids. Basically I've grown older and things have certainly changed, music-wise. And parenting-wise, I might add (laughs).
But you shouldn't really be fooled into some sort of nostalgia thinking that everything was so much better then. I think the noise scene is giving me a lot more excitement these days. Maybe because there is more of it around, maybe because years of listening has refined the taste for noise. I still get blown away by things, I still get surprised. If you like noise music, it's a wonderful time to be a listener and a participant.
Surrounding Swedish noise scene.
Like I said earlier, I've recorded material on my own since way before the current scene. I'm really happy about the Swedish scene for the last couple of years. I think maybe there's been a decline during the last two or three years but there's been some really exciting times. The best part is that there's been live shows that you can actually get to and see this kind of music live, which is perfect. I'm pretty much stuck where I live, so I really don't to travel much, otherwise there'd be more venues to experience noise live. But with an active local scene it gives you a chance to experience things in a live setting.
I think the only motivation I've needed for
Treriksröset is my own interests. It's a personal project and I've recorded things just purely for my own pleasure, without any intent of releasing it, so basically it's a personal project. I don't think it's been that much affected by what happens in the local or national scene or the Scandinavian scene if there's any such thing.
Killing Sessions with Sewer Election.
The first time me and Dan of Sewer Election played live together was in Sundsvall in 2005, and we did a mail collaboration tape that was mixed by Dan, and released on his Harsh Head Rituals label. The part of Sweden called Norrland, the north of Sweden, takes up some 60% of Sweden, but only 10% of the population lives there, so it's a great place if you don't want a lot of crowds. As far as stereotypes go, the people of Norrland are fond of illegal hunting and drinking moonshine and they fiercely hate anyone who comes from Stockholm, so they are fun to hang out with (laughs). The Swedish movie Jägarna is filled with information on the mentality of the people of Norrland. Some people say the movie is based on prejudice, but all the Norrlanders I know are very fond of it, so it's probably accurate. And Blod is the finest that has ever come out of Norrland, so the tape was just us paying our dues to the master of Swedish sexnoise. Playing live with Dan is always a blast, we seem to be on the same page when it comes to harsh noise.
All the collaborations we have done have been in some sort of wall noise mode, even though neither of us is really doing much wall noise normally.
When we did another tape for a gig in Helsinki shortly afterwards, we wanted to honour the great Tom of Finland. I think Tom's legacy is extraordinary, how leather fags all over the world have emulated his personal erotic hangups and fetishes, it's just amazing. He really created a world of his own, and it clearly struck a chord in the gay world. I really appreciate Tom's view of his own art -- if he didn't get a hard-on, it wasn't good. No outsider influence, no audience in mind, just one man, his drawing tools, and his cock (laughs).
Music in general.
I'm a huge music fan and I'm amazed by how much stuff that I find all the time in all different genres as possible. It's hard work trying to keep up with everything. I find new music on a daily basis that I want to hear, that I enjoy hearing. It's almost like there's too much happening out there. I can't really picture life without being a music fan or a music listener.
My own creativity, musically, is part of it. You can have a certain vision of how you want noise to be; you can have these amazing sounds in your head that you want to get out and somehow put them on tape. It's almost like an unattainable vision 'cause the things you hear in your head will always be better. You can strive to reach that goal but – I hear some amazing things in my head (laughs).
I've heard very many people say they're not influenced at all by others and it's all coming from them, but I'm not ashamed to admit I listen to other peoples' music. I like it. I love Noise music, I listen to it. And yes, I constantly listen to things I can't figure out how it was done. Even if you're listening to something where it's very easy to figure out how it was done it can still be done in a mind-blowing way. I do often try to picture how the music was created but I often fall short, I can't figure it out. That's just one aspect of listening to
music.
I hate to be blunt about things, I hate to be – well, sometimes I love it (laughs). For example, the Abisko logotype, the bondage lady, it was a reaction to the complaints being made that all Noise tapes look the same, all Noise tapes have tied-up chicks on the covers. I say "Yea, we have tied up chicks on every cover because we love it!" So, sometimes I like to be very blunt about things; a sense of humour about it, I hope. Other times it's just I toy around with words and all sorts of things in my head, and it can end up being a Treriksröset title or a piece of the art work or something. But the funny thing is no one ever asks why I named something this or that or why I used a certain picture... And for the most part I'd be happy to tell people but no one ever asks. So I keep doing it and well, no one really cares anyway (laughs).
Communication within music culture.
Yes, I do think there was more of the communication aspect in the older days, and frankly you communicated more, I think; you actually wrote letters to each other and you actually communicated in a whole different way. I'm not saying that it's worse
now, but it's sort of different. And of course, if you go back to Throbbing Gristle or SPK, they where keen on educating people. They where keen on showing what they where interested in, even to the point of publishing lists of books to check out, manifestos, that's all lost these days.
Of course, you put yourself on the line if you get too personal. If you really try to communicate your inner thoughts in the way of a music release on the cover you make yourself a target for all kinds of ridicule, because you're not "supposed" to do that. The few people that I can think of that are really personal and are open about it, I still don't see them getting much reaction to how open they are. So it's not really a climate where you are persuaded to be open about what you really think 'cause you're often met with indifference at best.
Maybe you limit yourself in some way, communication-wise, but personally there are very few things I think of completely black and white. There are so many different aspects to everything that to write a manifesto of some kind you have to be very set in your convictions.
I think another problem is that everybody wants to be an artist. Everybody's convinced that they are artistic, that if you are an artist you can be very vague. You can present things that aren't your own opinions and you can do things under the guise of "art" that really means nothing but it's "art", so it's okay. Maybe that is why we have less manifestos and less political thinking. It's been a long time since I saw any sort of challenging political thoughts presented in Noise culture.
If you're an "artist" you're really untouchable, 'cause it's your personal art, and you can be as insubstantial as anyone else. That's sort of a protective shield against criticism.
Violent and repulsive imagery
I tend to think of the most violent and the most repulsive images and themes that where used in early Industrial music; if they say that punk music was a revolt against hippies and the political correct movement of the 70's, where punk was about not giving a damn for wearing a swastika t-shirt, pissing off a lot of hippies, and being loud, ugly and generally obnoxious. And of course there had to come someone who wanted to piss off the punks, and they managed to do it pretty well. But isn't it time to find someone else to piss off?
There are some violent images that we've seen in art books and on record covers for twenty, thirty years, and are thus clichés. Of course, it can be a person's absolute conviction that this is what they want to explore that type of material in their art, and sure, I'm perfectly fine with that. If that's what you want to do then that's what you want to do. But, when the same kind of people are pissed off by the same kind of material year after year maybe it's time to piss off someone else. Maybe it's time to find new themes, 'cause I certainly understand that you do want to be obnoxious, and you do want to be provocative. But there are tons of venues for provocation that haven't been explored yet. And people are easily provoked. So why stick to the same old methods?
I think that a lot of people are limiting themselves in ways that are, frankly, embarrassing. And I would like to see people move on. I would like to see less predictable writing, promotion, and yeah, less releases in general. Every once in a while something comes, the problem is that the predictable is also the recognisable, and therefore it's easier to market, it's easier to make people buy it. 'Cause if someone knows what to expect then you make them happy. Right? There are people out there who wouldn't listen to anything but harsh Noise walls for example, and I just don't understand it. I don't see the point of limiting yourself that much. They will come out and say "Oh, we have all kinds of themes, we have all kinds of interests". But it's a cliché for a reason! It's been over-used. I've seen enough of it. It's not like I'm saying I'm doing anything that is ground breaking in any way, but I would like to see a bit more irreverence, a bit more intelligence, a bit more humour in general. And by humour I don't mean it has to be "joke" stuff. I think intelligence is kind of sexy and I would like to see more of that. You can see it in certain areas.
I think the problem now is that the Noise scene in a lot of ways is defined by certain online discussions; in the internet age that's what is visible, that is how the Noise scene is perceived. We know that there are things that are happening elsewhere that don't get attention and maybe will be picked up ten years from now. These things that go unnoticed now will perhaps become classics in ten years, I don't know. I do think a lot of people are making it very easy on themselves and making it very easy on the customers.
Noise art.
I was probably more interested (in the Swedish academic experimental music scene) when I was younger when it was something new to me, but – it's hard to say this without sounding too arrogant, but often it is being presented in venues or situations where I feel absolutely uncomfortable being in -- academic music is not really what I want to do. I feel very uncomfortable in the surroundings and the more academic places for electronic music. I can appreciate the music, but the scene gets in the way of the music, same as with so many other places. There's a reason that you grow tired of punk music, and that's because the punk scene is filled with people you can't relate to. I don't see music as a social thing, I see it as a personal thing. Given the choice to go to a concert or sit at home, in a lot of cases I'd prefer to sit at home. It could be because of my age, I don't know, when I was younger I'd go to computer music festivals and it was kind of exciting, it was new. But now I'd be bored sitting there.
I certainly felt that way when I saw Asmus Tietchens perform at Fylkingen a few years ago, with a DAT tape of his compositions, and it was excruciating. I'm amazed I sat through the whole concert and that's the stuff that is respected and it gets funding. I am kind of grateful that I have some kind of punk background to begin with 'cause I can't take it seriously. When it gets too arty- farty I lose interest. I'm not afraid to admit that. Most of the time I prefer something a bit more shabby.
Special packaging of noise.
During the nineties when there was a lot of special packaging, when there was almost a competition to have as outrageous packaging as possible; MSBR, G.R.O.S.S., Stinky Horse Fuckers – it became too much of that. I felt like I had enough crazy packaging to fill another apartment. But personally it hasn't really appealed to me, and there's also of course an aspect of the time it takes to produce all these "special" covers. To have a normal cover is much easier to send in the mail, it's much easier to produce. Since I do things on my own, it can get quite simple, but I like it that way. It's a conscious decision.
Cliché.
I get fed up with clichés, whether it's from the tape Noise scene or if it's from the academic scene. I've had tapes I've been given with the most obvious sex -and-violence themes where the music just fucking sucks! It's all a cliché. I can't stand those tapes, and I can't stand the academic clichés that I get from that crowd. I can't say there's a certain line that has to be crossed for it to become too academic for me, 'cause I love certain stuff like Alvin Lucier and you can't get more cerebral than that; it's almost more of an exercise in physics rather than music and it's still enjoyable. It's very academic but I do get a lot out of it. Maybe because Lucier indeed has a great sense of humour. And you can have things that are very artless which I am kind of predisposed towards, but it's still clichéd and that's the line. I can enjoy a good cliché as much as the next guy, but every once in a while it gets too much. Take for example the "White Nights" compilation, with Swedish artists using the infamous "death tape" from the Jonestown 1978 tragedy, which we have
all heard a thousand times and we've heard it sampled in anything from hip-hop records to Noise. Everyone's been using it. So can you reinvent the most obvious source material? Of course, some of these artists are close friends and without that personal bond I think that people really out-did themselves in not going to the clichés, but actually trying to avoid them. Maybe it's easier when you have something that's recognisable as such a tape, where you have to force yourself not to as obvious as would be the easiest.
So if it's anything that bothers me, it's probably clichés.
The Incapacitants for example, the themes are about financial matters, (laughs) stocks and bonds. That's pleasing because it's not tied down to any clichés. I agree that Noise is accelerating, it's full of life, there's happiness to it. People go through negative phases, of course, I still see people all dressed in black with Sisters of Mercy logos painted on their jackets, and they look dreadfully miserable. I just think that they'll grow out of it, eventually. I'm not sure if they will but hopefully. So if people in Noise are basically focussing on negative stuff or whatever, that's perfectly fine, I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes it's a bit juvenile, but that can be charming from time to time. Not everyone's doing it and there are alternatives to it, so I think those people can find something to relate to.
A friend of mine was going on about how the Noise scene was all about hatred, violence, misogyny; first I said to him "you have to show me what you're talking about. Don't just say it 'cause that's a cliché in itself, show me what you mean, what exact releases are you talking about?" And then I felt that I got sort of defensive in a way that Wall Noise people do when they are accused of only being about giallo movies (laughs).
These themes, they exist, but you'd have to ask the people who are using them why they use it. I've been using themes of violence for some of the Treriksröset recordings; I've been using football hooliganism, as both a theme and as sound sources. I do have an interest in violent subjects as well, but I like to think that you need to balance it out.
Football holiganism.
I've never really thought of it as horrific in any way. There are negative aspects to it; I had a friend who was killed in one football hooliganism death that has occurred in Sweden. But overall it's not something that I would condemn in any way.
First of all, I am a father of two kids, and have been for some time now, so there is precious little time over for hedonist fun like that. I view what is called football hooliganism as a pretty civilised form of thrillseeking basically. The rules of the game are well known, and although they differ from country to country, and it's a violent activity, it is safe to say that innocent bystanders are not at any risk of getting hurt. Around 20 years ago, there was more terrace violence at Swedish football games, but in the process of making the football games more of a family attraction the violence became more organised, even ritualised, and moved away from the terraces. By the late 90's, the bigger Swedish teams all had well established groups of fans willing to fight for the team's colours. The original group of Gothenburg hooligans started as an answer to arch rivals AIK, whose fans behaved like animals when coming to Gothenburg. They stood up for their city, and really noone blamed them for doing that. I sure as hell didn't. Looking at a phenomenon like this from the sidelines, it would be easy to think of it as just braindead thugs going at each other for no sound reason at all. I guess the only way to describe it is as a ritualised hardline form of acknowledging that there is antagonism between cities and teams, and this comes alive in the form of more or less planned clashes between groups of fans. Right or wrong, moral or immoral, it is one of the few arenas left for men to have a go at each other, and an easy way to step outside of society's rules. What this says about the hooligans is up to anyone to analyse. I view it as a way to seek out, and to place yourself in, potentially dangerous situations, just for the thrill of it, regardless of what is otherwise acceptable behaviour to you.
Going to football games since the old days, the atmosphere on the terraces has changed drastically. Again, whether it's for better or worse is up to your personal opinion. I can miss the old days, where the tension was always there, and where you could lose yourself in the rush of being part of a mob. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it! (laughs) I guess if you have a view on humanity that we are not creatures of conflict, you might think it is barbaric and uncivilised to even begin to show any kind of understanding for this kind of behaviour. But like I said earlier, there are rules to this ritualised form of violence, and noone wants to see anyone end up dead. Now the nature of violence is that sometimes it does kill, so of course accidents happen. Until now, only one person, Tony Deogan, has died from hooligan fights in Sweden. There will be more deaths in the future, I'm sure. Still, considerably many more people have died while mountaineering, so perhaps we shouldn't make too much of one death, no matter how tragic it is. There are people who will actively seek out dangerous situations, and as long as everyone is there of their own free will, what harm can there be? If there is anything I understand pretty well it's probably the pursuit of the thrill, and in a civilised society like Sweden you sometimes need to go to extremes to seek out the big thrills.
The noise world can be pretty intellectual, or at least pseudo-intellectual, and sports in general are usually seen as simpleton entertainment. So being more interested in going to football games than sitting at academic music shows makes me a neanderthal to some people I'm sure. Acknowledging that organised mob violence can be fun is also not something you put in your cv... I have used themes of hooligan violence for a few Treriksröset tracks.
Eating tarmac on the Sweetness Will Overcome compilation is self-explanatory title-wise, and also uses sounds of terrace violence as source material. The track Pro- WM is named as a salute to Gothenburg's finest. But these days I don't have the time or the energy to get my hands dirty, even though I still very much enjoy when there is real danger in the air... but the death of
Tony made me lose a lot of interest in the hooligan world. After his death, there was a HUGE influx of young people who wanted to get in on the fun. You got young kids who hadn't even been to a football game in their life, they just came for the fighting. Also, there was more and more of the rather silly "casual" clothing thing, where you got the feeling that it mattered more what kind of super expensive brand clothes you wore than being able to name any players of your team. I don't mind people dressing sharp, but kids, get your priorities straight for fucks sake.
