synth talk / lazy synth?

[MyrtleLake]

...its here to annihilate you all.

STILL ABOVE ALL OF YOU

...I will evolve forever.
ABOVE ALL OF YOU.

You know you can create any sound... with synthesizers right?

...the original CoC setup was always a cassette player for the blind, delay pedal, meat box.

The use of absolutes is perilous.

[Zeno Marx]

This thread should probably be split off into its own topic before it completely derails the playlists.

could title it "GET OFF MY YARD!"  I'm guilty of it as well.  Often.

[Theodore]

Often one can hear pretty much the factory default tones and generic electronic noises that appear when you first push the button.

I remember a long time ago you reviewed a Crown Of Cerberus cassette and I remember you had the feedback of "Enya tracks merely reversed in a computer" according to what you heard by your ears.

The fact is, the original CoC setup was always a cassette player for the blind, delay pedal, meat box. No computers.

So I have a very very difficult time buying into the idea that you can "hear presets and hear the exact sounds of specific synthesizers".

So it's not what he says but who says it ? Is it personal ? With this reply looks like. And it doesnt help this interesting debate in which i hear both sides. At the end, cause it is matter of taste / preference and it's impossible to have a definite conclusion, bottom line is it's not what you use but how you use it.

But there is a difference i see : A bad / lazy / boring synth based PE project has no chance to have personality / uniqueness. It will sound the same as others boring synth based projects. A bad one with other sound sources may has that personal touch.

[teenagelightning]

I think it's possible there's a difference of perspective on this between American and Europeans. I was always bored of a lot of American noise being kinda boring white noise pedal and contact mic improv stuff so with Blackwatch I wanted to do something that was more structured around synth and in the vein of German heavy electronics

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I tend to lean nowadays so much more of handmade, broken, destructive sounds.

You know you can create any sound, including those sounds with synthesizers right? Or are you actually concerned that its only good if using specific equipment?

but can synth truly capture the feel of contact mic scrapings or transistor squall or eerie field recording?

You can manipulate those sounds in a much larger and aggressive form via granular synthesis. So yes, it can capture that and even more.

This is exactly the point.

If original point made, was how abundance of cheap gadgets, access to cheap synths and access to cheap efx is transforming genre to quite lazy when many artists settle on what gadget itself generates - it is of course entirely different topic compared to someone using advanced synth knowhow and tools that allow to put those ideas to reality, to archive interesting results. If we're talking about granular synthesis, where you sample some raw sound, to process it, this goes instantly back to importance to commit in making that "hand made raw material".

(That said, I personally, do not generally like granular synth stuff that is being made, almost at all. Especially when it is all about the effect sound and barely the raw material. I am fully aware one can use it in good ways, but when I hear it, I generally do not like what is done with it. Not much in electro-acoustic etc, even less in context of PE)

I know you have a lot of knowledge about PE, yet when you talk about synth PE "polyphonic ambient tones" or "distorted keyboard tone and couple plugins" are the first thing that comes to mind? Don't you see how that is dismissive? It's all a matter of taste and as a man of synthesizers, we are not going to agree on this one.

As said above, if we're talking about things I perceive as negative effects, that abundance of synths these days have caused, those are what I do think are the major problems in context of PE or industrial in general.

Someone who has heard my own work, could probably see that I am no synth hater, as vast majority of the stuff uses synth. In fact, even latest published work, Grunt "Kraniometria", there is ZERO moments where synth would not be there. There is barely other things. I recall one distortion pedal and one echo.

So could be summed:

synths = good
synth preset sounds = bad

After re-launch of MS-20, it has been many times discussion with friends. When you hear someone buying MS-20 and then hear what they are doing with it, I am surprised how many times one won't use it to things monotron wouldn't be able to do. Then, by default, it is just the gadget. It could be used for SO much, but often feels PE bands would do actually better without out it if they have no idea or will to even test what it can do beyond the basic default oscillation.

[Euro Trash Bazooka]

Hah Mikko, you just posted my thoughts exactly before I finished writing my reply due to arriving to work.

I know people who use 3 Monotrons on stage. They could buy one interesting lesser known synth with different and more original sound personality (and sturdier outputs) for that money instead.

I think laziness from people also comes from the fact they don't take the time to think, analyse and process what makes such and such artists good. "GO and Haus Arafna have MS20, let's all buy one!" But they forget these guys know how to build great patches and this is where the MS20 shines. But the patch learning curve is steep and most people don't put efforts into learning that. It's like everyone jumping to buy Minilogues or Minibrutes. Yes, they're cool when you know how to use them. But with some more investigation you'd realise there are some killer Russian or Italian (or even American) synths from the 80's that cost the same price and won't make you sound as generic as everyone else if you care to learn how to use them.

And I dislike granular synthesis too. It's subjective but I'll turn off whatever I hear that I suspect use granular synthesis most of the time because I don't like the textures it creates in general.

[brutalist_tapes]

is this topic specifically referring to modern, small budget synths? asking because for me, synth is pretty important part of PE, at least? it doesn't have to be there, and i personally really like the use of scrap metal, feedback and other "harsh-noisey" techniques... but when i think whitehouse, i think synths, when i think GO, i think synths, etc... when speaking about prurient/this other american rhytmic stuff, isn't it more a question of synth wave-inspiration... ? just some thoughts, since my personal favourites in PE are very synth-heavy, for example "powerhungry" by OC... but i guess the impression its not THAT kind of synth work youre talking about here..?

[Andrew McIntosh]

Had a bit of a listen to both the Sarin Snow and Blackwatch releases. Basic synth tones with vocals over them. In Blackwatch's case, some rhythm. The actual synth tones themselves are nice, could do well in the live sphere. Both releases well recorded, lots of drama around the pacing, use of vocals, etc.

There's nothing wrong with these releases per se but for mine they seem to lack some kind of initial individual impact. But it's definitely down to the synth patches they're using. The sounds coming from these releases just seem to me unengaging. Elementary. Too careful, too contrived, too clean. It's not that there's anything wrong with them. For me, there's a lack of immediacy and aggression. Can't put it any other way.

Listening now to Blackwatch's "Unlock the Heroic Blood". All the elements are there - the synth tone, startling acoustic (?) banging, effected vocals - that synth tone, I dunno - sounds too - I don't know how to put it. Even turning it up, even when the flange comes in - it just doesn't seem to be a base on which to rest a piece on.

Sarin Snow, "Saint George" - really doesn't sound very different from the opening track "Within Oak". In fact it's almost the same synth tone. In fact it's pretty much the same synth tone right throughout the entire album. With scant variation. Is that like the same guitar tone on a rock/Metal/punk album? Personally, I don't think so, but obviously others think different, so there it is.

These projects are doing PE their own way for their own crowd. But that doesn't mean criticism of them should be met with some kind of over-reaching "what's wrong with synths?!" knee jerk. This is fucking Noise/Industrial/Power Electronics, we all fucking love synths! That's not the issue. The issue is what you do with them.

[Bloated Slutbag]

Often one can hear pretty much the factory default tones and generic electronic noises that appear when you first push the button.

I remember a long time ago you reviewed a Crown Of Cerberus cassette and I remember you had the feedback of "Enya tracks merely reversed in a computer" according to what you heard by your ears.

The fact is, the original CoC setup was always a cassette player for the blind, delay pedal, meat box. No computers.

So I have a very very difficult time buying into the idea that you can "hear presets and hear the exact sounds of specific synthesizers".

So it's not what he says but who says it ? Is it personal ?

It's always personal. Anything less would be...

civilized.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Had a bit of a listen to both the Sarin Snow and Blackwatch releases. Basic synth tones with vocals over them. In Blackwatch's case, some rhythm. The actual synth tones themselves are nice, could do well in the live sphere. Both releases well recorded, lots of drama around the pacing, use of vocals, etc.

There's nothing wrong with these releases per se but for mine they seem to lack some kind of initial individual impact. But it's definitely down to the synth patches they're using. The sounds coming from these releases just seem to me unengaging. Elementary. Too careful, too contrived, too clean. It's not that there's anything wrong with them. For me, there's a lack of immediacy and aggression. Can't put it any other way.

Listening now to Blackwatch's "Unlock the Heroic Blood". All the elements are there - the synth tone, startling acoustic (?) banging, effected vocals - that synth tone, I dunno - sounds too - I don't know how to put it. Even turning it up, even when the flange comes in - it just doesn't seem to be a base on which to rest a piece on.

Sarin Snow, "Saint George" - really doesn't sound very different from the opening track "Within Oak". In fact it's almost the same synth tone. In fact it's pretty much the same synth tone right throughout the entire album. With scant variation. Is that like the same guitar tone on a rock/Metal/punk album? Personally, I don't think so, but obviously others think different, so there it is.

These projects are doing PE their own way for their own crowd. But that doesn't mean criticism of them should be met with some kind of over-reaching "what's wrong with synths?!" knee jerk. This is fucking Noise/Industrial/Power Electronics, we all fucking love synths! That's not the issue. The issue is what you do with them.

My original post wasn't meant to be addressing Sarin Snow etc as a problem. As honestly, there is much more to their album than just pre-set synths. This was merely starting point of discussion as it happened to be in playlist at that particular moment.

Sarin Snow album is recorded pretty well. Synth work is pretty clean, but there are other elements too that display sense of sound and atmosphere. Vocals are not typical at all. It's quite rare to hear such pitch-shifted demonic roars. Especially in live setting (where I first heard the project), quite unexpected. In live setting, subtle details of synth were barely to be observed. It would have required heavier PA system. Rather epic moment in set was playing Miserere mei, Deus, moderately distorted, for the end of set.

I would suspect they don't aim to be ripping or raw. Same as something like Alberich, which is good and deserves the praise, but a bit too synth-wave-esque in the sonic quality (not the composition) to my personal taste. I can appreciate bands who do have some compositional sense and ear for the sound they're looking after.

It's entirely different thing when you hear the stuff I mean, heh. Unfortunately, I won't be name dropping here. It wouldn't be very fruitful situation.

[HONOR_IS_KING!]

If we're talking about granular synthesis, where you sample some raw sound, to process it, this goes instantly back to importance to commit in making that "hand made raw material".

(That said, I personally, do not generally like granular synth stuff that is being made, almost at all. Especially when it is all about the effect sound and barely the raw material. I am fully aware one can use it in good ways, but when I hear it, I generally do not like what is done with it. Not much in electro-acoustic etc, even less in context of PE)

I would be interested in what you've heard/haven't.

You probably haven't heard anyone replicate the sounds of metal out of synthesizer tones via granular synthesis.

But then again I could understand how that might be a bit too complex/a little too over your head to comprehend/ might dare I say you are too lazy to take the time to learn how to make it work.

Also I'm going to say it again, you don't have the ear you think you do. Point brought up earlier is not personal. I have never given a solitary shit about what anyone thinks of my material. But you claim to have the ears to "hear presets" and pinpoint them to synths is a crock if you are claiming a release was all done on computer when it wasn't.

The only thing "lazy" in this topic are the ones too "lazy" to explore those possibilities.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Also I'm going to say it again, you don't have the ear you think you do. Point brought up earlier is not personal. I have never given a solitary shit about what anyone thinks of my material. But you claim to have the ears to "hear presets" and pinpoint them to synths is a crock if you are claiming a release was all done on computer when it wasn't.

That can happen, due the fact that there are analogue material that manages to escape all the positive aspects associated with analogue recordings. I am slightly curious what the release in question would be that I may have misjudged?

Edit:

ah, I realize it now. We are still talking about the years old tongue in a cheek comment about Crown Of Cerberus tape. Talk about not caring what people say about your work... uh..
To see if mental image of Enya reversed was utterly unthinkable, I believe it was this tape, one can check material here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmEqVVXwUjg

[Cementimental]

You can't "create" everything with synth, or if you theoretically could, the guy with microbrute ain't going to synthetize you that, hah...

I've been creating animal vocal sounds and disturbing humanoid screams using just the Korg DS-10 on the Nintendo DS. :D But yes, tooo many people are satisfied to dial in some generic SICK BASS DRONE DUDE and tape a couple of keys down. They don't even know that putting a Rizla packet across the neighboring keys is a far better way, for that matter.

[Euro Trash Bazooka]

I used clothes pegs! Very handy!

[Andrew McIntosh]

My original post wasn't meant to be addressing Sarin Snow etc as a problem. As honestly, there is much more to their album than just pre-set synths. This was merely starting point of discussion as it happened to be in playlist at that particular moment.

I know that was the starting point for this topic (which is quite interesting so far). I just thought I'd have a listen and thought, yea, funny - nothing quite stirring about those recordings, and the patches/tones of the synths really are to blame. Not what I'm used to from PE, anyway. So if they're the tip of the iceberg I'm not inclined to want to listen to anything else you'd be thinking of. Maybe Sarin Snow would be okay live but I'll never see them live of course. A big loud pa makes all the difference anyway.

I quite revel in plain, unadorned synth tones, such as they are presented in work from artists like eleh, Calineczka, etc. But that's more for home, late night listening. If I'm going to listen to PE I want something that's going to wake me up.