synth talk / lazy synth?

[ligature impression]

Well, if one is looking for synth sounds fine, but when with "handmade, broken, destructive sounds" I mean things like mentioned in comments related to Odal and Con-Dom releases. Think of wide variety of uses of metal junk, sand on the turntable on blank vinyl, cut & manipulated tape with concrete sound, machines, scraping, ripping sound of amplifier, unpredictable ripping electronic sounds, etc etc etc.   
...
I am 100% confident, that availability of synths and keyboards and all sorts of neat efx gadgets have made power electronics less interesting than when it was done with nearly zero "gear". And furthermore, I am quite surprised how abundance of the tech doesn't result more experimentation. Often one can hear pretty much the factory default tones and generic electronic noises that appear when you first push the button. Especially more complex synths, and those that allow you to filter external sounds, allow so vast possibilities, that I am slightly surprised how little people seem to use them and are happy with just playing "keyboards".

When there was vast variety of microphones, amps, tape recorders, (tape brands even!), mixing descs...   I can easily understand how it resulted diversity as opposed to bands that have pretty much same gear, recording to same digital recorder having almost the same ideas. I suppose when in past diversity came almost as by product of situation. Nowadays, when possibilities are endless, paradoxically it seems other way round.

I think this is a really interesting critique to articulate. I pulled a couple of Mikko's comments that I thought were totally on point and some things that have definitely crossed my mind in the past few years. You can take synths and make many interesting sounds whether deep, complex patches or minimal, but as has been stated, many of us can often hear when a Monotron has been used, and then some times that's all you can hear, and I would assume that these out of the box sounds stand out to others who have used them. How many recordings will have the sound of a redlined behringer mixer sent hot right into Audacity/etc? But even in that constraint, there are those that bring new sound to the mix and stand apart. This may be more characteristic of harsh noise recordings this decade, but I think the same thinking applies do to ease/access creating a kind of standardization of sounds.

I don't think anyone's arguing they could pass the pepsi challenge of Microkorg presets or Behringer mixer clipping blasts, but I can see (that massive abundance of (and access to) gear and ease of recording/editing has resulted in many more projects producing but not an equivalent fraction creating new exciting sounds that inspire.

[NaturalOrthodoxy]

It's apt that Con-Dom was used as a positive example of sound sources in this discussion- I've always thought that the field recordings on Eighth Pillar (distant machinery, GX's whipping loop, close water sounds) are far more rugged and hard than the actual synth sounds in the album. some of them seem to barely have effects, and I thought the immediacy of an almost raw field recording with vocals over it is a really underused feature in PE, at least in my experience. would love to know of other artists employing this approach- i thought that Cauldhame's reply of layering field recordings in lieu of synth was really interesting and definitely will redefine how i listen to that project.

[l.b.]

IMO comes down to quality of ideas and not gear or complexity of technique etc. Many times i've done some convoluted "cool" process of plugging old things in incorrectly or destroying some such object with a contact mic taped to it, many times these sessions yield stories and pictures that are more interesting than the sounds. "Experimentation" implies the risk of failure, and when my experiments fail I don't use them. i'm not interested in "experimental electronics" for its own sake. Similarly, with synths, I find a simple hard-hitting patch with little modulations most effective. "Lazy," then, in a performative sense, because it involves very minute twiddling of knobs :)

Perhaps my personal bar is quite low, but I think power electronics in particular is as good now as it's ever been. Standardization of process is a risk, but people driven by ideas and passion will find ways to innovate their process over time, unlike say hardcore or death metal where the process is fairly rigid. Sometimes when you "do something different," it sucks.

[HONOR_IS_KING!]

We are still talking about the years old tongue in a cheek comment about Crown Of Cerberus tape. Talk about not caring what people say about your work... uh..

Tongue in cheek was missed because your English like your ears is not as succinct as you think. If that was meant as tongue in cheek like you say now then so be it.

I'm more interested in the convo originally started though.

What have you artists and their releases listened to that features granular synthesis and you didn't like it? Especially because you have stated you know what that sound is exactly. Or were you stating that tongue in cheek as well?

[Soloman Tump]

I used clothes pegs! Very handy!

I use these climbing plant pegs on my monotron, they have a better reach than standard pegs and they have quite a tight spring so you can put a bit of rubber down to avoid key / ribbon damage.

[HONOR_IS_KING!]

We are still talking about the years old tongue in a cheek comment about Crown Of Cerberus tape. Talk about not caring what people say about your work... uh..

Tongue in cheek was missed because your English like your ears is not as succinct as you think. If that was meant as tongue in cheek like you say now then so be it.

I'm more interested in the convo originally started though.

What have you artists and their releases listened to that features granular synthesis and you didn't like it? Especially because you have stated you know what that sound is exactly. Or were you stating that tongue in cheek as well?

Are you really getting your panties in a bunch because the power electronics legend made a joke about your twinkly ambient side project?

I'm not a fan of the projects mentioned in OP, but I do enjoy "lazy synth" power electronics such as Myrrh and Pleasure Island. Crown of Cerberus is FAR too hi fi and "guitar pedal bro" sounding for even my tastes.

Your rage is kinda cringe bro.

I'm talking about how I disproved his ears. He goes on and on about how he hears these particular sounds and when I have proof everyone wants to make it like its my personal attack when really I would have much prefered to use another review to showcase my point, but I only have mine. So tough shit. So since I didn't catch the joke at all and have moved on like I said, I'm still awaiting to hear his examples of granular synthesis that he's heard. I'm trying to have a discussion on that. Granular synthesis employed in releases, not about a release I did years ago. Do you know anything about that stuff yourself or are you into becoming a "PE legend" with some guitar pedals?

The fact that you call him a "PE legend" makes me cringe even harder because I don't make idols out of people. That's for weak minded individuals. On top of that you sound like a basement dwelling kvlt nerdball saying that.

Fanboy dork ass mark.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I'm talking about how I disproved his ears. He goes on and on about how he hears these particular sounds and when I have proof

I assume you mean the proof that joke about one particular tape being referred Enya reversed, is representative how technical aspects of material was heard?
You do not have to ridicule yourself further. There is the general guideline in forum that less drama, more noise. So I assume we can already drop this subject?

I'm still awaiting to hear his examples of granular synthesis that he's heard. I'm trying to have a discussion on that. Granular synthesis employed in releases, not about a release I did years ago.

There could be granular synth talk in the tech section for example. Or best granual synth releases on the main page. It has very little to do with topic what was in hand here, which was critique of lazy synth. Preset sounds may be misleading on some cases, one could call it rather default sound? Imagine someone unboxing korg MS-20. He plugs in the power cord, pushes first button and power electronics emerges. No joke. And that is what he will use for first track he makes, with delay pedal vocals on top. That is the impression one gets listening some things. Gadget default sound as core of sound. Not experimental recording methods, not as one element that is enhancing tasty sound combinations. Some take couple steps, making it ok. While there would be miles to walk to get it beyond "I had fun doing this" level.

Granular, as said before, would have a starting points that has quite advantage for it. Not only you can load your own sounds to process, but also it allows you to do things that are not possible or would be extremely difficult in analogue process. When I first had seen stand-alone hardware version of one of granular synths, it did seem interesting. When I heard what it really does, I was no longer interested.

My exposure for granular synth probably started by hearing works of Xenakis, who was using tape manipulation to achieve that already back in 50's. Not my favorite sounds of his. After popularity of digital granular synth process, you simply get to hear it anywhere. As being avid listener of experimental music broadcasts in Finland, you tend to be exposed to other things than "underground noise" as well. I do not memorize their names and buy their albums. Yet, have learned to appreciate some of methods due their possibilities and concluding noise and power electronics would benefit from experimental approach to sound. Which is basically what topic was suggesting. It did not suggest yet, but I have said it many times elsewhere, that broader experimental art music would have shitloads to learn from noise & industrial.


All that said, if you would have had time to check out actual reviews, you would probably see taste that has consistency that tends to reject all the usual kaoss pad sounds. Digital glitch art. All sorts of stutter electronics. digital time stretching, digital pitch bending, etc etc. Tends to not praise basic synth pad. Neither I am fan of fat and colossal synths, resembling pretty usual soundtrack music or synth wave. All these elements, may just about to work within context of bigger thing. Yet even notable names run themselves quickly to corner with relying on too much on those things.

In context of power electronics, where for example I look for ripping and raw sounds, the effects provided by granular synth generally adds merely goofy twist. In contexts of electro acoustic, it is less so, but usually still results "aaargh, not again". In the genre of broken beats, soft ambient, IDM, etc. it's perfectly fine.

But I assume the real question here is asking did I hear the great things you have done with granular and the related efx things? For example Terror Cell Unit. Yes I have. No worries. I am aware of the skills.

[HONOR_IS_KING!]

But I assume the real question here is asking did I hear the great things you have done with granular and the related efx things? For example Terror Cell Unit. Yes I have. No worries. I am aware of the skills.

There's barely any "granular synth" use in Terror Cell Unit. But I'm glad you hear it everywhere these days.

No drama or grudges on my end Mikko. I appreciate you taking the time to respond as always. Always respected the fact that you're down to converse versus shutting down or locking a thread.

[Theodore]

Granular synth : the ghost in the house. Some say it is good, some it is nasty, but ... nowhere to be seen. Haha, this is getting funny. Sorry, ignore me, continue ...

[Bloated Slutbag]

Though tangential to this thread, on the subject of criticism... I would guess that anyone who has released at least a few things into the public sphere has been the recipient of criticism (or praise!) that they would have felt to be off the mark. Likewise anyone who has offered more than a few criticisms in the public sphere has doubtless been the recipient of both more and less politely worded queries as to what they were smoking.

I'd say, it's often difficult to parse what, exactly, grabs me, as listener. Or what may fail in that uh grabbing capacity. (Bar the requisite molestations via metal whanging on metal!) But speculation on the subject is still, for me, an endless source of fascination.

[Euro Trash Bazooka]

Granular synth : the ghost in the house. Some say it is good, some it is nasty, but ... nowhere to be seen. Haha, this is getting funny. Sorry, ignore me, continue ...

Clouds is probably the most sold module in Eurorack ever (with Maths) and it's a granular synth.

[Soloman Tump]

Talking granular,
I purchased this pedal and it is lush.  Wasn't cheap but it is very versatile.
Has 16 different granulation algorithms plus feedback / looping effects.
Love it.  Can be used very subtly or full on obvious.





Uses found so far, for example,

Create a drone with your clothes peg on the monotron then use program B2.5 and long loops to form this ever evolving weird pitched drone.  Modulate the feedback and create multiple layers of different pitched drone sounds.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

I still don't know what granular synthesis is. Don't think I care either.

Always the talk of "lazy PE", which I find quite lazy. What about lazy generic piss awful noise? Why does that always get a free pass?

[murderous_vision]

I still don't know what granular synthesis is. Don't think I care either.

Always the talk of "lazy PE", which I find quite lazy. What about lazy generic piss awful noise? Why does that always get a free pass?

I also do not have a fucking clue what granular synthesis is. Sounds itchy...

[Euro Trash Bazooka]

Granular synthesis means that you take an audio signal (generally a waveform but that can even be a sample) , split it in slices that last a certain number of milliseconds (called grains, hence granular synthesis), and put them back together in a different order, or on top of each other. And it makes a processed sound that's different from the one it's supposed to sound like.

I think it can sound great but most people make it sound like crap to my ears so I never use it.