Noise gentrification?

[moozz]

Ahem, I am a bit guilty there, I remember when at College doing Art, in 1997 Frieze Art Magazine in the UK did a feature on Japanese Noise and there was a free 3"CD with Massona, Merzbow and (I think) Pain Jerk.

The third artist on that 3"CD is MC Hellshit & DJ Carhouse (Yamatsuka Eye on voice and Otomo Yoshihide on turntables).

[Euro Trash Bazooka]

I find this thread and people's opinions highly ironic when the opposite could also be said about them by other people who made music often mistakenly considered as elitistic throughout the 20th century and whose approach to music, through cut-up stuff to use of metal junk, drones, loops and whatnot, is similar to what all the elitist noiseheads make without the distracting lyrics and the distortion, and the shock value. Performance noise will always be boring since nobody will ever ruin a venue with a bulldozer again. More than "gentrification", which is a very biased term probably used by people who are the exact definition of what a "gentrifier" is in this particular context (and you're probably one who's responsible for gentrifying something as well when say, you move somewhere where rent is cheaper so you can save money and 1. you disturb the wealth balance of the place you moved in, 2. you disturb the demographics of the place before you came in), I think the current noiseheads are pissed by some sort of cultural appropriation of what they considered (erroneously again, imho) as THEIR music by people they politically disagree with. Prejudices, again.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

1. you disturb the wealth balance of the place you moved in, 2. you disturb the demographics of the place before you came in), I think the current noiseheads are pissed by some sort of cultural appropriation of what they considered (erroneously again, imho) as THEIR music by people they politically disagree with. Prejudices, again.

I may be way off base here but after thinking on this there seems to be cycles in this phenomena over the years. Merzbow on Relapse around 1998 - when he could book a huge tour (or maybe he was opening for Mr. Bungle or some shit?) without any real issue, fast forward to Wolf Eyes on Sub Pop in what, 2004-2006-ish.... now Merzbow is cancelled (kidding....) due to his online meltdown about the noise podcast about him and Wolf Eyes is a meme page with 80,000 followers. Maybe the next thing was Full of Hell utilizing noise elements and that would have been what, 2012-ish? Now it's definitely (maybe) the influx of guys from the black metal scene who love that edgy shit. I'm probably missing a few cycles.

I suppose if I was a more educated person in the realm of cultural shifts I'd say it probably has as much to do with the "old guard" become disillusioned by the ever changing landscape and crying for the"good old days" as much as it is the influx of new faces - personally I don't really care who is into it as the scene right now seems really strong.

To first return to the what spawned the idea for topic, I recommend listening the episode from 43 minutes onwards when the shame match of "noise gentrification" vs "noise creationists" starts. Reminding still that it's comedy bit.

How gentrification is described (in short) People show up, they have no context of subtleties, but something makes them uncomfortable in history, they want to push it away. I don't see it happen basically with any former shift in industrial/noise that was described above. That it would be sort of middleclass-esque mentality, moralism combined with "identity shopping". It isn't like power electronics brutes invaded musique concrete scene and had "demands". They just created "scene" of their own. It seems to me, that formerly, harsh noise created it's own "neighborhoods". It wasn't about invading existing place and attempt to cleanse it to your liking, but building new. I doubt it was possible to move in with demands. Now you got people talking about community and sensitivity in places that are what they are, and blossomed, because there was no such mentality around. If looking the common traits of middle class mentality with modern noise and analogies of gentrification, you probably see some of the same things mentioned comedy bit so funny - and true.

[PuddysJacket]

I find this thread and people's opinions highly ironic when the opposite could also be said about them by other people who made music often mistakenly considered as elitistic throughout the 20th century and whose approach to music, through cut-up stuff to use of metal junk, drones, loops and whatnot, is similar to what all the elitist noiseheads make without the distracting lyrics and the distortion, and the shock value. Performance noise will always be boring since nobody will ever ruin a venue with a bulldozer again. More than "gentrification", which is a very biased term probably used by people who are the exact definition of what a "gentrifier" is in this particular context (and you're probably one who's responsible for gentrifying something as well when say, you move somewhere where rent is cheaper so you can save money and 1. you disturb the wealth balance of the place you moved in, 2. you disturb the demographics of the place before you came in), I think the current noiseheads are pissed by some sort of cultural appropriation of what they considered (erroneously again, imho) as THEIR music by people they politically disagree with. Prejudices, again.

I don't particularly disagree...but if someone writes off Whitehouse as "nazi pedophiles"......I just immediately catalog them mentally as a clueless faggot.

[l.b.]

lots of these problems caused by people falling back on decades-old trick of vagueness and never being directly asked what their work means. whitehouse is obviously ironic but it wasn't til a few years ago WB felt compelled to issue a little public relations clean-up about it all. Same with Solotroff. And yet the current scene is awash in noncommittal bullshit. The worst is the hypocrisy of the moralists; because they don't understand certain references, or because they can justify it to themselves as some kind of 'social commentary,' all sorts of stuff that should offend their humanistic sensibilities gets a pass. is it because outsiders are trying to come in and "take over" hn and pe?? I dont think so. It's because peoples' reasons for doing it have become weak.

[Lazrs3]

Ahem, I am a bit guilty there, I remember when at College doing Art, in 1997 Frieze Art Magazine in the UK did a feature on Japanese Noise and there was a free 3"CD with Massona, Merzbow and (I think) Pain Jerk.

The third artist on that 3"CD is MC Hellshit & DJ Carhouse (Yamatsuka Eye on voice and Otomo Yoshihide on turntables).

Thanks, I wasn't being lazy, I would have checked, but somehow managed to lose it years ago. This in my defence was my first 3" CD. I am big on the Inner Demons label who only do 3"CDRs and I have not lost any of them, so decades later I have learned better 3"CD care.

[deutscheasphalt]

Listened to some parts of the podcast just to get the gist of what's being discussed here. First of all, labeling a show as "comedy" and then trying to drop a bunch of hot takes is a little wack imo. So you're not supposed to take anything seriously, LOL jk... unless?
On the topic, as far as I understand the process of gentrification is primarily based on more affluent workers being able to buy houses close to their workplace. So the idea as it is presented in the podcast that gentrification results from all these ghetto LARPing hipsters who love the grimy aesthetics of urban areas and then complain about crime is just wrong. The parallel to noise gentrifiers is therefore lacking as well. Noise is not "poor people music" - also as seen by the racial representation at most shows (90% white), but that's a separate discussion - so an infiltration of the scene by rich people driving poor people away doesn't exist. What kinds of instruments one is able to afford doesn't really play into the musical output or to put in other words - being able to buy expensive gear doesn't make for a good artist obviously.
So I am assuming the "problem" of gentrification which is presented here has to be cultural then; it is offensive to some that people enter a scene without being well familiar with the origins and then make a bunch of moral statements judging certain outputs of the scene. To me personally, that is totally normal and expected since I've always assumed noise or extreme electronic music comes in all shapes and colors. Right-wingers will complain about liberals and vice versa. The message I'm getting from people who complain about gentrifiers though is that noise is supposed to be like -this- cause it's always been like -this- and people who complain about -this- are wrong. My issue is that I'm missing an explanation from these people what they would like -this- to be, since it is entirely arbitrary and subjective, but at least I would have an idea what they're talking about.
Maybe it's the old free speech thing which some confuse with being able to say whatever you want and not suffer the consequences?

[Zeno Marx]

...pissed by some sort of cultural appropriation...

Funny how this often doesn't bother someone until it is their culture being appropriated.  A significant problem in politics.  It has to hit home before it is an issue...or before any semblance of understanding gets in motion.

[Johann]

I think the criticism of the podcast is fair, I listened to it and found it pretty dumb...but not so much so that I turned it off, but I people are taking their choice of the word " gentrification" to seriously and literally as I think that was clearly the "joke"...i took it more so is what PTM Jim expresses, a introduction of call out culture into the "scene" of from outsiders of it, where now bands are experiencing cancellations or worse having people attempt to destroy personal lives, etc...

It may very well be a direct result of the current political environment and the existence of the internet facilitating it... but it's interesting to think that 25 years ago you could have Con-Dom working with a project like Control Resistance but also working with someone like Militia. Or someone like Ulex Xane having comps on zero cabal with projects that have come to be associated as far left or right all there together...I imagine this is what Ron was talking about when he talked about pussification of noise, that people were only into their own transgressions and not accepting or indifferent of others. I also imagine there was just far fewer people butthurt if you told them you didn't like their tape back then and less inclination towards the circle jerk culture where everything is just great.

[A-Z]

the way i see it, this is one of the many symptoms of a general cultural trend, the gradual revocation of liberties acquired by the lower classes over the course of XXth century
it started somewhere around 2000 and becomes more noticeable every year
what you are allowed to do, what opinions you're allowed to hold and express - the spectrum gets narrower and narrower
as a result, the degree of edginess that was the norm in the 80s and 90s has become pretty much off limits
and there is no shortage of volunteer thought militias to enforce the new limits,
because this way one can "protest" and "fight evil" and at the same time risk nothing, because what he really fights for is the mainstream, government-approved, corporation-approved, mom-and-pop-approved discourse
and on top of that, not only can you feel good about yourself because you are supposedly changing the world for the better
but you can also enjoy power over other people - the people whose spaces you invade and remodel to your taste
ironically, this is what could make industrial/noise/PE goons relevant again
there's no point in being offensive when you actually offend no one, and this is how it was for quite a long time

[holy ghost]

Speaking specifically about the local scene there's a lot of crossover between noise/experimental and the LGBTQ+ community and other groups who (typically) share a similar political outlook - I wouldn't expect that they'd just go "oh shit I love this. But.... Whitehouse! Well I guess I better know my place and just be quiet". I find that our scene has pretty much adopted a policy of "no hate/no bullshit" and it's actually a pretty nice thing. Are there edgy PE shows happening that I'm just not aware of? I have no idea (there very well might be?) but I don't see the "cancel culture" everyone is so worried about, you can either get with it or do your own thing. There's a pretty large crossover between the grindcore and noise scenes here so the politics are bound to overlap too.

[Johann]

but I don't see the "cancel culture" everyone is so worried about

The one I was specificity thinking about was the Skullflower Matthew Bower, https://thequietus.com/articles/26024-skullflower-matthew-bower-fascism-racism or people trying to block Death In June shows in Chicago..

[Theodore]

I find that our scene has pretty much adopted a policy of "no hate/no bullshit" and it's actually a pretty nice thing. Are there edgy PE shows happening that I'm just not aware of? I have no idea (there very well might be?) but I don't see the "cancel culture" everyone is so worried about, you can either get with it or do your own thing.

How to cancel something that is not going to happen cause your 'scene' has adopted a policy ? See, that's the 'problem' , is that a music scene or political clique you describe ?

[holy ghost]

See, that's the 'problem' , is that a music scene or political clique you describe ?

Damn dude I don't want to sound cliche here but isn't art inherently both?

[Theodore]

See, that's the 'problem' , is that a music scene or political clique you describe ?

Damn dude I don't want to sound cliche here but isn't art inherently both?

What matters more ? What's the priority ? Me playing good music or me being a fascist / leftist / whatever ? I think we all know the answer for the kind of scenes like that you described ...

Wont i listen and like Ramirez's noise cause of what he is and the gay-porn covers ? No way ! Does liking him makes me gay friendly ? No way ! Do i care to 'clean' noise from gays, blacks, leftists, fascists, aliens, whatever ? No ! Would i like noise clean of such 'cleaners' and policing ? Yes, it would be better if they stayed away ...